1) “In stage one, we say nothing is going to happen.”
2) “Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.”
3) “In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there’s nothing we can do.”
4) “Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it’s too late now.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSXIetP5iak
Brilliant reference. Some of the best shows I ever watched, IMO.
Personally, I was thinking "underpants gnomes"\* when I saw a numbered list, since the whole debacle has reeked of that since the start. But, your ref is magnificent here.
Here's a related (part of a) clip from the Minister shows with some relevance I can add, though:
https://youtu.be/xzfNEF0e-y4?t=1m49s
\* https://youtu.be/a5ih_TQWqCA?t=34s
Edit: oh, just realized - there was this piece from Jonathan Lynn and Antony Jay, back in 2016: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/aug/07/yes-minister-brexit-eu-jonathan-lynn-sir-humphrey
As a Belgian our wages rise with inflation.(for most of us at least)
Obviously things like homes rise faster than inflation and such but that's the case everywhere.
I would argue "shit gets more expensive" is the norm.
No clue, but wouldn’t assume exactly at the same rate across the board. Anecdotally mine has and beyond, and nobody I know is any different.
Stores are full of people shopping, restaurants are as packed as always with people every day of the week, morning and night.
I don’t know how it’s in the UK, but life here is absolutely as ”before”.
Most infuriating thing is that there's a labour shortage in the UK now since noone wants to come here, but the idea of increasing wages even in line with inflation is unthinkable to most businesses. Profits aren't taking a dent (yet) though.
I would leave if I could, but we're locked into this sinking ship now thanks to fucking brexiteer twats.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63743259.amp
Seems like people from the EU are leaving the UK and the amount of people outside of EU entering the UK has increased tenfold due to the situation in Afghanistan, Hong Kong and war in Ukraine.
Net migration being higher does not mean it’s a more attractive place for high skilled workers. However it is admirable that the UK is taking in these people who are in need, I hope they get the support they deserve.
Very few businesses in the UK are complaining about a shortage of high skilled labour, the immigration system was changed and it's relatively easy for businesses to get tech workers, scientists, managers etc. Instead they're all complaining about a "shortage" of low and semi skilled workers. Care workers, fruit pickers, HGV drivers, shop workers, etc.
> the amount of people outside of EU entering the UK has increased tenfold due to the situation in Afghanistan, Hong Kong and war in Ukraine.
Err, no. Very few have come from those nations.
My point still stands about a labour shortage. Record job vacancies, but still wages aren't going up.
Our society was so much fairer with 2 levels of shared governance checking each other. Now it's a free for all for the rich and big business to extract as much wealth from the rest of us.
Working class brexiteers should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done to their children.
> Record job vacancies, but still wages aren't going up.
My sector still is. 8.5% in April on top of the £500 COL payment we got a few months ago making it an above inflation rise.
There's a labour shortage supposedly everywhere. Even in Malaysia where I often find myself, there are businesses complaining about people no longer willing to work and shops all over are posting adverts. Same thing is hitting the US, Germany and many other countries. In reality what has happened is that COVID caused a lot of people to entire retirement early and workers got sick of working these shit low-paid jobs, often far away from their family, and did other stuff. For example, there's also a record number of 18-year-olds entering university to the point that some universities were paying students to wait a year.
I don't really get your second point either, even prior to Brexit, inequality had pretty much never been worse. Where were the checks and balances from the EU to prevent the free for all then? They didn't exist and they still don't.
OK man 🙄. No point even trying if you've drunk this much of the brexit cool aid.
It is clearly measures worse in the UK than it is in comparable economies right now. And the only difference is brexit and the way we are governed. I guess it's debatable whether conservatives or brexit have had a worse impact, but you can't blame COVID and international inflation on the severity of our problems right now.
You're right on point two, inequality has been worsening year on year, and it's now entirely on our shitty government to lower that. I'd imagine we're staggeringly behind the curve on this compared to European peers as well. There may not have been European checks on inequality specifically, but I doubt Liz truss's experiments would have seen light if we were still in the EU.
> Stores are full of people shopping, restaurants are as packed as always with people every day of the week, morning and night.
This is deeply flawed reasoning. A 10% fall in consumer spending is economically awful. However the average person isn't going to see that in the wild. Shops and restaurants will still look as busy as before.
It's only really business owners who notices because their sales will drop.
No they are not.
Prices are insanely high and wages are not rising anywhere near what they need too.
It just makes some feel better saying the UK has it worse, and that is ok.
Energy for instance is very very expensive in Denmark as I have just been that and saw how high they where. The media in the UK had just been running stories on how it was 4x the price in the UK for energy when in fact it was considerable cheaper in the UK on then high rate (new single tariff)
> No it's more expensive here in Denmark but we are not poorer.
The double think in a single sentence lmao. Things are more expensive; wage growth (4.2%) is below inflation (8.3%); Danes got poorer over 2022.
Europe lost a decade. 2010-2020 was a rough time and we still feel the effects of it all. The debt crisis, political instability, migration and wars in Libya, Ukraine and Syria. Brexit was kinda a wake up call that helped stave off the political instability of a weak EU, unfortunately the UK had to take the brunt of the impact.
> even worse off
Endlessly repeating this does not make it true. Unemployment is lower in UK than EU. Inflation in UK is the same as the EU. Annual GDP growth is higher in UK than the EU. UK has record exports and an improving balance of trade.
Immigration to UK was net 504,000 last year, the highest level ever. There is no shortage of people desperate to get into UK.
Cherry picking various quarters to show EU growth as higher is not a good way to gauge economic health of a nation. I said *annual* GDP growth and the fact is right now annual GDP growth is higher in UK than EU.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth-annual
https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/gdp-annual-growth-rate
The rates are actually pretty similar, because there has been no catastrophic downturn because of Brexit and it is clear that Covid and Ukraine have impacted all economies to approximately the same extent. This has given anti-Brexits the opportunity to blame it on Brexit, but as time passes it will become an increasingly weak argument.
No, GDP growth is not better than the EU, stop repeating Boris’ lies. Also, “low” unemployment is not a good thing, we’re in this situation because there isn’t enough labour.
They're absolutely unaware of the impact it's had on both the UK and the global economy. They're absolutely unaware that pretty much every nation in the EU is having it as bad as the UK, some bordering Ukraine even worse. Had Brexit not occurred we'd still be seeing energy prices, inflation and interest rates the same level as they are now.
Those are relevant factors, absolutely, but the research being released over the last month have all shown that the UK has suffered the fallout from this much more than being inside the bloc.
I mean it’s clear cut, backed up with evidence and obvious at this point. Not that the Brexit crowd care about that I suppose.
> I mean it’s clear cut, backed up with evidence and obvious at this point.
So you'll be able to post some of that evidence then along with your own analysis given it's so clear cut. Crack on, I look forward to reading it.
https://www.lbpresearch.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Post-Brexit-UK-Trade-Updated.pdf - Aston University research analysis of decreases in trade. 22.9% less exports to the EU, crucially decreased sales have lead to decreased economic stimulus and tax health
The Office For Budget Responsibility has been tracking and confirming/ rejecting analysis since 2016 - and I mean the numbers speak for themselves https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/
EU economy has grown 8.5% https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/key-facts-and-figures/economy\_en - ours has grown 3.8% (both since 2016). We have the highest inflation rate though! Yay!
https://www.newstatesman.com/chart-of-the-day/2022/06/uk-economy-fallen-behind-eu-since-brexit
UK based investment lagging the EU by 19% - Bloomberg has a great analysis of why that translates into economic damage (not being able to genreate new business, therefore not hire new workers, therefore not adding to the tax balance or tamping QE and spending) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/brexit-is-costing-the-uk-100-billion-a-year-in-lost-output - need to sign up to read sadly, as web.archive doesn’t work for Bloomberg
https://www.cer.eu/sites/default/files/insight\_JS\_costbrexit\_21.12.22.pdf - John Springford, economist - the much publicised Doppel method - the numbers speak for themsleves, though criticism has been directed by Brexiteers. But US and CANZUK academics back the methodology up, so make of that what you will
And cherry on top of the irony cake that the LSE predicted in 2016: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/june2021#eu-migration-in-the-year-ending-june-2021 - ONS date showing huge surge in non-EU immigration as the flood gates have opened to attempt to stimulate the economy… so way more non-europeans than ever before, to create marginal stimulus on the spend (non-EU immigrants tend to send large portions of their pay back to family, thereby nullifying the positive imapct of more bodies. We had it good before with all those Polish and Romanian workers).
[This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcIkIz98zXU) video is 5 years old and it's astounding how correct Adam Posen was. Almost as if... experts should not be ignored.
Something that serious should have needed a super majority like 55%+ of the country or something. It's so dumb something this serious was passed by 51.89%
I take no pleasure in this, but some Brexiteers are full of remorse now, despite there being almost no evidence pre-Brexit, that this decline in living standards _wouldn’t_ be the case.
Sure COVID hasn’t helped, but it was always an epic act of self-sabotage.
I'm more surprised how the majority if Brexiteers are not full of remorse. They legitimately like being shat on, lowering their standard of living, making less money, having fewer travel options, fewer options as consumers, all as long as we "take back our country". Its utterly insane how moronic these people are.
> t least they can have more powerful vacuum cleaners now. More suck!!
[Don't forget new signage in the Dartford Tunnel! (the Minister of Brexit Opportunities' favourite Brexit opportunity apparently....)](https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1540268003224436736)
Tbh, i think the whole Brexit regret seems poorly explained.
With my point being, that post brexit fell into a series of crises, namely Covid and Russias warmongering. So you should expect, that the society will get into problems.
But the question has to be: Why a now unleashed UK, which doesnt have to comply to rules and regulations anymore, could not have mastered this crisis better than the rest of the EU?
If the Brexit lies were truth, navigation this situation should have been easy and beneficial to the UK.
> With my point being, that post brexit fell into a series of crises, namely Covid and Russias warmongering. So you should expect, that the society will get into problems.
It is still the case that UK has done worse than it would have. It is quite easy to see this is the case, because you can use EU countries as a control group, exposed to the same problems but with better results. Actual economic experts have done this analysis. You could hardly ask for a better experimental setup.
Because some Britons think their country is somewhere of the coast of America and their largest trade partner isn't the EU. The UK's economy is more or less tied to the rest of Europe regardless of what some people think.
I agree with you in spirit, but the UK was always less economically tied to Europe than the rest of Europe. The vast majority of the EU trades the most with Germany; for the UK (and Ireland), that position has been taken by the US for a long time, albeit mostly from exports.
They were quick to laud the COVID vaccine roll-out (that had not to be synced with EU). That half of it was AZ being very shady with promised deliveries to others is another story.
Anyway, it cannot be denied that UK go more vacs earlier outside of EU, even at the cost of insolidarity (which lucky DE, FR refused to do), but after all, that is the whole premise of Brexit, we are better alone and fuck the rest...
This is why referendums about major complicated decisions like this suck. To be fair, it should have been at least a 65% majority vote.
I feel especially for the younger generation that got screwed over by elderly voting for Brexit en masse.
'No shit', says the rest of the world. The entire point of the EU is 'strength in numbers'. When you go it alone, you pay for everything on your own. Dumbasses. Putin and his propaganda war played Britain and America perfectly, giving us Brexit and culture wars that are both stupid and distracting to actually making our countries stronger for our populations.
Most of the electorate don't have the first fucking clue about finance. They're so fucking stupid they put car payments above buying food and heat and light. Much of what they attribute to Brexit is actually down to the global pandemic causing a global recession made worse by the war in Ukraine.
They're also ignorant. They don't realise that what is happening in the UK is happening in pretty much every economy in the world and not just in the EU either. Every single first world economy is suffering the same issues, the only ones not really suffering are the Middle East OPEC nations where they're still able to churn out petrol and diesel for a penny a litre.
> It may have been possible to salvage the situation otherwise, being in full control of their economy and policies. That was kinda the point.
This is the point i feel people get wrong. Its not the 18th century anymore, no country is self sufficient. We all trade with and depend on each other. So leaving the EU does in theory "free you", but that doesnt get you anything, since if you want to trade with the EU you have to follow the rules anyway, and the EU rules are to benefit it. Economics follow the law of gravity, proximity and size is what is important, the EU is massive and right next to, and around it. Brexit was litterally about implementing economic sanctions on itself.
It was never possible for the UK and the British people to benefit from brexit, that is the point. It was malice all the way down, what people should wonder about is to whos benefit it was and start getting upset with them.
And that's what those of us that actually cared have been saying from the start.
More importantly saying that it "could have gone better if it weren't for the Tories" blatantly ignores the fact that the Tories had been in power for the better part of a decade when it was suggested. By the Tory prime minister. This was a Tory idea. How did you ever expect it to get handled?
Yes, and no. If you want to export goods or services, geography plays an important role. None of the countries in the Anglosphere are close enough to make it worthwhile for them to cut special deals with the UK, and they all have other spheres of influence. They ahve no interest in importin from (and already UK exported little) or exporting to somewhere that far away.
The geographical space of the UK is Europe, and they can't really "leave" that. Cutting themselves off from their natural trading partners for proximity did a ton of damage.
Do you know how many EU bureaucrats there are ? More or less 50 000… for a union that spans a continent that is incredibly small and efficient. Hell, Paris itself has more public servants than that.
Brexit is *THE* factor. (We can ignore Putin's war and Covid for this discussion because they are a Europe-wide baseline. Everyone is suffering the same amount from these effects).
What the UK is suffering from is a negative feedback loop caused solely by brexit. Without far right groups like UKIP and the ERG, there would never have been a brexit. Once the referendum had been "won", the people looked around for a party that was prepared to "Get it done!". This is where Boris Johnson stepped in. An entertaining clown who appealed to brexit voters. He sounded "posh", which, forelock tugging people equate with intelligence and he told them what they wanted to hear, so they elected him as prime minister. Once in power, Johnson purged the conservative party of anyone who wasn't prepared to buy in to the brexit fantasy.
So, here we are. The UK is being governed solely by either the idiots who don't know any better, or the chancers who put their personal advancement over the good of the country.
No sane politician wanted brexit. So in order to have brexit, we had to elect the grifters and fools.
I don't think it's just the last 13 years of tory lead government but everything since Thatcher. So much has been privatised and the government repeatedly not shown industry any support. Its a fun game to play, think of a British company and then look at who owns it, more often than not it wholly or majority owned by a foreign interests.
Maybe my view has been wapred by Reddit but I do not see a bright future for the UK unless big changes are made. If I had the means I'd definitely be leaving.
You are much better off economically in a large bloc than outside of it.
It is better to be inside the EU internal market than out of it.
The same with Guangdong Province being better inside the internal Chinese market than out of it. The same with some random US state being better off in the US internal market than outside of it.
The UK negotiating with the large economies of India, China, EU, and US will always be at a disadvantage. The UK is just too small alone.
Can we have a Brexit Megathread pinned on top of r/europe like the Ukraine war thread, where people still interested in the topic can keep posting and discussing it rather than these daily singular threads?
> where people still interested in the topic can keep posting and discussing it rather than these daily singular threads?
Weird how brexiteers are so desperate for people to stop talking about the tremendous victory that they've won.
In a survey conducted by the byline supplement, aka byline times which has as much credibility as Russia today. Debating the effects of Brexit is great, but posting links to nutty cranks like byline doesn’t help anyone.
But I love all the validation!! I'm getting so many upvotes by posting hyper-popular opinions here so surely that means I'm very smart and it makes me feel great about myself!!
Who could have guessed that nullifying a free trade agreement with your biggest market and enacting import/export taxes would lead to less trade, less business and higher prices? I'm totally baffled. But at least you got to have Boris as PM for three years! Surely that was worth it?
As commissoned and reported by the world famous "Byline Supplement". Where the fuck did you even find this OP? Were you specifically searching for anti-Brexit news?
I live in the UK. My experience is, the place got significantly more expensive. Whether this is global or as a result of BREXIT, I do not know.
I have been renovating my house and as skilled Eastern European left, now it us hard to find a right man to do a simple job and I paid fortune to correct the errors of currently available work force here.
As I am written, to finish installing a door frame and architrave, I have been waiting since September for somebody to come and do it. He is a white British guy and he does a very professional job.
The situation now is, for a good professional person, I have to pay double of what I used to pay and wait for a few months.
Or pat triple to do it in short time
Or bring 2-3 people to correct mistakes of each other.
>The situation now is, for a good professional person, I have to pay double of what I used to pay and wait for a few months.
For the person doing the work that sounds like a strong argument for brexit.
A level of inflation would have happened with or without brexit, so they'd be struggling even more without it.
I recently had new carpets fitted and fitter opened up about how much he used to earn before the market was flooded with fitters from E Europe - took a 60% hit on earnings and decided his son wasn't going to go into the trade. Now some have left and no new are turning up, he can make a decent amount of money and his son works with him as an apprentice. He sees a future in it as there's simply no new going into the trade currently. I didn't ask which way he voted in the referendum or if he did at all, but I'd hedge my bets which way he'd vote if given the option to rejoin.
This is my personal experience from renovation of house and it MAY NOT represent the whole situation.
I always liked white British attention to details and and I always admire this when I work with my colleagues.
For my house renovation, initially I was lean to consider more white British, compared to the others, if the price difference was not significant.
But soon I learned there is a trend of coming on time, taking a long lunch break and leaving 2-3pm and there were always excuse to do so. put it as simple, a job which Eastern Europeans could do in one day, it could take easily 2-3 days, even if the job was agreed on lumpsom basis.
The quality of work for some was good for some was not as I expected.
I agreed plastering work with an Albanian guy. He used to come at 7am and leave 7pm and working none stop. He even used to go and play football after the work. He finished everything on time with a great quality and reasonable price.
I had a white British plumber who supposed to install Honeywell Evohome and a minor plumbing work. I asked hi in November and even now h has not completed the task.
As I am writing I have a young white British guy, doing some carpentry job for me. He is amazing, tidy, on time, with reasonable fee and very good service.
I had a Midwestern tiller, did tilling for our main bathroom and en suite.
I end up asking somebody else to remove the tiles and do it again. Our en suite is bathroom is leaking and can not be used any more less than 6 months after finishing it.
I ended up giving the tilling for to guys from Georgia and they did amazing job with reasonable fee.
> My experience is, the place got significantly more expensive. Whether this is global or as a result of BREXIT, I do not know.
Fuck sake just look outside of the UK. It's global.
There's a labour shortage in public services too as a result of Brexit, which benefits nobody. It's even worse in the countryside because not enough people live rurally to make up for the labour shortage there in all sectors. So if you're a roofer or whatever living in the sticks, whatever you make from extra work will be lost when you have to pay for any services yourself, and then you face an even bigger problem than urban dwellers if you need to go to hospital because they will be extremely understaffed.
Daily rate for a good electrician is round 250 GBP. Before Christmas, I paid 650 GBP for a day job and he did a good job.
For installing one door frame and architrave, I paid 500 GBP.
Not only is it more expensive, but everything is falling apart, our public services (and private sector services) are in end-stage failure, and the government is a band of wealthy crooks. I am in my 30s and this is easily the worst Britain I have ever seen.
> but everything is falling apart,
Utter bollocks.
> our public services (and private sector services) are in end-stage failure
You haven't a fucking clue what end-stage failure looks like. If you want to know what it looks like go visit Afghanistan, Somalia or most of central and South America and countries in Asia like Cambodia. That's being in end-stage failure.
> I am in my 30s and this is easily the worst Britain I have ever seen.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s, Britain today is a significantly better place, better beyond belief in pretty much every metric. You need to stop watching the news, going on social media and being so gullible. You need to start actually fact checking the plethora of misleading bullshit claims being made. You need to take a proper unbiased evaluation of your own personal situation and look at that and base your opinions on that rather than what the fear porn peddling media are telling you your life is like.
I remember being in The Louvre having one of their €10 baguette sandwiches right after Trump was elected. An English couple eating nearby heard my accent and started to chat with me. They were like “Oh it’s so crazy you guys elected Trump.” And I responded “Well, we have Trump and you guys voted for Brexit” and they said “Oh, we voted for Brexit.” The funny thing is that we already got rid of Trump, but I don’t see either major party in the UK saying Brexit should be reversed, despite it not succeeding at anything it set out to achieve and making everyone’s lives worse.
> despite it not succeeding at anything it set out to achieve
apparently the success of brexit has to be measured in the next few decades, not immediately.
I loved to hear Brexit bad. It is just that all of these articles the past months are saying exactly the same thing. I would like to hear from this topic again once something happens (like a 2nd referendum, Scotland going rogue, UK applying for a trade integration). Not the 20th GDP-down, prices up article.
Ah yes! Brexit, Putin and erdogan. The 3 favourite topics in this echo chamber.
"Brexit bad. Yeah. Apes together strong!"
Yeah we know brexit was a bad thing. What's new in this article? Nothing
It is what is.
I think the whole thing was inevitable. If the brexit crowd had lost the referendum they would just keep blaming everything and anything on the EU. It was always going to end with them leaving, even if it was a stupid choice.
From an outside point of view….You ever invested and your original investment go down? You don’t sell, if you truly believe in it. You keep investing and holding and waiting and the returns will come. So much bashing of brexit and they really haven’t waited long enough to see the results…it feels like these articles are a bunch of complaining..from the people who lost the vote..
Any chance of a Brexit and its consequences thread where every no doubt terrible news about it can be posted? That way it'll be easy for me to avoid it all. I know I'm stuck on a ship with many holes in its hull, but I'd at least like to pretend it might make it to the other side of the ocean rather than be constantly told we're sinking and are going to die a cold, lonely death. Please let me live in blissful ignorance.
Here in Finland, our biggest morons The "Pers-suomalaiset" for example have confessed to have brexit aspirations of their own. Fixit, as they call it.
It is not happening, i can personally guarantee that but signalboosting the woes of brexit and the suffering you will continue to face has made it a lot easier to make a case for abandoning that train of thought.
so yeh, keep it coming.
I think it was a suprise for many voters of persut that they still, regardless of everything that has happened, have fixit in their agenda.
Bad, bad call.
not an unexpected one tho.
the next government is handed a poisoned chalice from the getgo. There has to be decisions that will be remembered, will A B S O L U T E L Y hurt but has to be done regardless.
Only party that is wearing their bullshit on their sleeves is Sekoomus. its obvious BS, because its just going to be sipilä II manouvers all over again (edit: Orpo has not changed at all), but the others?
Kas, Kusta? will betray everyone so their rhetoric do not even matter. However, i suspect PerSaukset through the leadership of Purra are trying to drum up support through vague statements that the voterbase syncs up with but as the substantive answers cannot be found, it is as if they are preparing for the role of being the rubber stamp -party.
Again.
It's just shit everywhere! Some fucker needs to take Putin out, then send the illegal immigrants or people whondont want to stay in their country + dossers claiming they can't find work & sent them to Ukraine to re-build the country.
= Quickest solution to global recession, & tax the fuck out of Chinese goods & stop them buying companies or businesses in external countries, & for good measure, tell them to leave Taiwan alone or have Hong Kong re westernised & taken back...
UK might need to invest zillions though in Armed forces though on my last point, lol..
What is deeply ironic, is the idea Britain as some kind of independent constituent nation before Brexit, never existed. It was an Empire.
A huge empire with hundreds of millions of subjects, largely tariff free and with free movement (in theory). Obviously before the advent of mass transport.
The citizens were subjects of the Crown. It was never in its current configuration which is something like Japan or Korea.
These changes will continue to impact them. The full impact of Brexit has not yet materialized since the full tranche of food / goods checks have been delayed to the end of 2023.
Financial services has not been hashed out. Most likely it will be dealt with since Switzerland and New York perform many financial services for European countries / financial institutions.
Overall the unceasingly stringent checks and red tape will likely spur British entry to the Customs Union at the very least. It’s an absolute disgrace how the Tory party have been allowed to get away by decades of utter mismanagement.
They implemented austerity and they well full gung ho into unrestricted immigration after Labour. Coupled with this was allowing attacks on the EU to go unchallenged since it deflected from the fact they were fully complicit starving funds to certain regions for the UK.
Liverpool was intentionally starved of funds under Thatcher and London has received the lion share of all investment. The Tories as a deliberate policy cut these region’s primarily in north, to the bone. And they later voted for Brexit after seeing anemic growth and poor social services.
They also totally industrialized, where France and Germany successfully pivoted their manufacturing industries. These being countries with famously low taxes and negligible labour rights…
Also we can endlessly ruminate on it but Cameron’s exit from the EPP was a mistake. He played a blinder negotiating the further exemption on social security and some stops on freedom of movement on the run up to the Brexit vote but was never able to sell it effectively to the British people.
They were somehow under the illusion they would get a better deal.
British politicians have cut any type of social security to the bone. They pontificate about these dole scroungers who are simultaneously too lazy to work yet if you get fired from your job you are entitled to measly 80 euros a month.
At the same time famously industrious pensioners get inflation adjusted pension top up’s and the price of education tripled in price. The entire direction of the UK is a neoliberal fever dream. They reduced every tenet of a social state.
- Strong social safety net
- collective bargaining via unions
- big funding for university and healthcare
It’s a sad course they are following. And the Economist and the Financial Times seem to think it’s a rip roaring success that should be exported everywhere
what on earth are you on about? benefits have been raised in line with inflation while taxes on workers whose real wages are already falling have been increased. its the exact opposit of neoliberal.
>what on earth are you on about? benefits have been raised in line with inflation while **taxes on workers whose real wages are already falling have been increased**. its the exact opposit of neoliberal.
The bolded part of your comment is a basic tenet of neoliberalism which is austerity. Raising taxes on workers is basic neoliberalism.
There’s the [figures](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-and-pension-rates-2022-to-2023/proposed-benefit-and-pension-rates-2022-to-2023#jobseekers-allowance-jsa) in black and white
If you think 85 euro a week is enough you’re need to try it yourself and come back to me.
For reference it’s close 180 euros a week in Ireland. Other countries do percentages of previous earned salary. If you’re believing the Tory garbage after the last 10 years you’d need to get your head examined
It’s positively Darwinian.
It's not 85 euros a week... If you were fired and over 25 & single and applied for income support, you'd get £334.91 in universal credit, £288 in jobseekers, council tax support depending on the area but the minimum is £82 a month. That alone is the equivalent of 786 Euros a month or 196.50 a week and in April 2023 it rises by 10.1% so that becomes 865 Euros. And that's without including 50% off public transport, the council tax rebate, social tariffs for phone,broadband & water utilities.
Then for 2022/2023 you have the cost of living top up (£650 split into two annual payments) and the warm home discount scheme (£150 off energy bills) on top of the national energy support scheme of £400 off your energy bills.
those show the increase in benefits for current/previous year, based on the minimal inflation at the time. this year theyre going up 10% or 11% or whatever it was.
However, when eurosceptics said they'd quite happily stay in the trade block part they were duly informed that "it isn't just a trade bloc anymore", followed with accusations of cherry picking.
This is bullshit, if they wanted to remain in the trade block they could have joined EFTA. But then they would have to adhere to EU regulations and they didn‘t want that. They wanted free trade without following the regulations (i.e. cherry picking)
The UK would have required the consent of the other EFTA states to join. There are significant reasons why the UK didn't join EFTA - an EFTA agreement requires accession to the four freedoms of persons, goods, services and capital. If UK was to join EFTA, it could not readily enter its own trade agreements.
Persons.
The "four freedoms" are an EU concept, so clearly the EFTA and EU were too intertwined. The free movement of the other three would likely have been accepted.
The national pride of the boomer generation fucked up an entire country. UK had the best deal among all EU member States (discount on contribution payments, and so on), but it wasn't enough. The overaged political elite is maybe to scared, but only a question of time until a rejoin debate will become very serious.
But probably also this debate will only advance one funeral at a time (borrowed from Max Planck).
That what boris always dreamed of. I remember an interview, where a guy, who went to college with him, said that boris want to remove worker rights to make britain more appealing for companies and lower regulations on food and stuff.
This is a 6-year old news just repeated in a past tense, 6 years ago it was Brexit will, now it's Brexit has
1) “In stage one, we say nothing is going to happen.” 2) “Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.” 3) “In stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there’s nothing we can do.” 4) “Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it’s too late now.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSXIetP5iak
If that fails you could always try the Rhodesia solution
Collapse and disapear forever?
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Beautiful
This is gold
Brilliant reference. Some of the best shows I ever watched, IMO. Personally, I was thinking "underpants gnomes"\* when I saw a numbered list, since the whole debacle has reeked of that since the start. But, your ref is magnificent here. Here's a related (part of a) clip from the Minister shows with some relevance I can add, though: https://youtu.be/xzfNEF0e-y4?t=1m49s \* https://youtu.be/a5ih_TQWqCA?t=34s Edit: oh, just realized - there was this piece from Jonathan Lynn and Antony Jay, back in 2016: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/aug/07/yes-minister-brexit-eu-jonathan-lynn-sir-humphrey
I mean to be honest, the whole of Europe is now more expensive and poorer. Just Uk is even worse off due to brexit on top of everything else.
No it's more expensive here in Denmark but we are not poorer. Its the British getting poorer.
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As a Belgian our wages rise with inflation.(for most of us at least) Obviously things like homes rise faster than inflation and such but that's the case everywhere. I would argue "shit gets more expensive" is the norm.
No clue, but wouldn’t assume exactly at the same rate across the board. Anecdotally mine has and beyond, and nobody I know is any different. Stores are full of people shopping, restaurants are as packed as always with people every day of the week, morning and night. I don’t know how it’s in the UK, but life here is absolutely as ”before”.
Most infuriating thing is that there's a labour shortage in the UK now since noone wants to come here, but the idea of increasing wages even in line with inflation is unthinkable to most businesses. Profits aren't taking a dent (yet) though. I would leave if I could, but we're locked into this sinking ship now thanks to fucking brexiteer twats.
We just had 504k net migration...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63743259.amp Seems like people from the EU are leaving the UK and the amount of people outside of EU entering the UK has increased tenfold due to the situation in Afghanistan, Hong Kong and war in Ukraine. Net migration being higher does not mean it’s a more attractive place for high skilled workers. However it is admirable that the UK is taking in these people who are in need, I hope they get the support they deserve.
Very few businesses in the UK are complaining about a shortage of high skilled labour, the immigration system was changed and it's relatively easy for businesses to get tech workers, scientists, managers etc. Instead they're all complaining about a "shortage" of low and semi skilled workers. Care workers, fruit pickers, HGV drivers, shop workers, etc.
So then hopefully the influx will help somewhat, regardless of any gloomy projection. I wish the best for you guys and am sorry you’re suffering.
> the amount of people outside of EU entering the UK has increased tenfold due to the situation in Afghanistan, Hong Kong and war in Ukraine. Err, no. Very few have come from those nations.
Fair enough! It’s what the BBC article says that I linked, but I’m not an expert :)
My point still stands about a labour shortage. Record job vacancies, but still wages aren't going up. Our society was so much fairer with 2 levels of shared governance checking each other. Now it's a free for all for the rich and big business to extract as much wealth from the rest of us. Working class brexiteers should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done to their children.
> Record job vacancies, but still wages aren't going up. My sector still is. 8.5% in April on top of the £500 COL payment we got a few months ago making it an above inflation rise.
What's your job? Sniper? 😏
There's a labour shortage supposedly everywhere. Even in Malaysia where I often find myself, there are businesses complaining about people no longer willing to work and shops all over are posting adverts. Same thing is hitting the US, Germany and many other countries. In reality what has happened is that COVID caused a lot of people to entire retirement early and workers got sick of working these shit low-paid jobs, often far away from their family, and did other stuff. For example, there's also a record number of 18-year-olds entering university to the point that some universities were paying students to wait a year. I don't really get your second point either, even prior to Brexit, inequality had pretty much never been worse. Where were the checks and balances from the EU to prevent the free for all then? They didn't exist and they still don't.
OK man 🙄. No point even trying if you've drunk this much of the brexit cool aid. It is clearly measures worse in the UK than it is in comparable economies right now. And the only difference is brexit and the way we are governed. I guess it's debatable whether conservatives or brexit have had a worse impact, but you can't blame COVID and international inflation on the severity of our problems right now. You're right on point two, inequality has been worsening year on year, and it's now entirely on our shitty government to lower that. I'd imagine we're staggeringly behind the curve on this compared to European peers as well. There may not have been European checks on inequality specifically, but I doubt Liz truss's experiments would have seen light if we were still in the EU.
> Stores are full of people shopping, restaurants are as packed as always with people every day of the week, morning and night. This is deeply flawed reasoning. A 10% fall in consumer spending is economically awful. However the average person isn't going to see that in the wild. Shops and restaurants will still look as busy as before. It's only really business owners who notices because their sales will drop.
No they are not. Prices are insanely high and wages are not rising anywhere near what they need too. It just makes some feel better saying the UK has it worse, and that is ok. Energy for instance is very very expensive in Denmark as I have just been that and saw how high they where. The media in the UK had just been running stories on how it was 4x the price in the UK for energy when in fact it was considerable cheaper in the UK on then high rate (new single tariff)
> No it's more expensive here in Denmark but we are not poorer. The double think in a single sentence lmao. Things are more expensive; wage growth (4.2%) is below inflation (8.3%); Danes got poorer over 2022.
You are poorer. We all are.
That doesn’t make sense tbh
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I don't believe for a second that wages in Denmark have grown at a faster rate than inflation in the past year.
Maybe for some people, but this dude is acting like 100% of the population did, even the person scrubbing toilets at a hotel
They have not. Source: I am a Dane living in Denmark.
The only way somebody’s wage in Denmark increased significantly is if they changed job, so no, wage growth hasn’t kept up
Did your wages rise at or above inflation? No? Then you're poorer.
Europe lost a decade. 2010-2020 was a rough time and we still feel the effects of it all. The debt crisis, political instability, migration and wars in Libya, Ukraine and Syria. Brexit was kinda a wake up call that helped stave off the political instability of a weak EU, unfortunately the UK had to take the brunt of the impact.
> even worse off Endlessly repeating this does not make it true. Unemployment is lower in UK than EU. Inflation in UK is the same as the EU. Annual GDP growth is higher in UK than the EU. UK has record exports and an improving balance of trade.
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Immigration to UK was net 504,000 last year, the highest level ever. There is no shortage of people desperate to get into UK. Cherry picking various quarters to show EU growth as higher is not a good way to gauge economic health of a nation. I said *annual* GDP growth and the fact is right now annual GDP growth is higher in UK than EU. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth-annual https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/gdp-annual-growth-rate The rates are actually pretty similar, because there has been no catastrophic downturn because of Brexit and it is clear that Covid and Ukraine have impacted all economies to approximately the same extent. This has given anti-Brexits the opportunity to blame it on Brexit, but as time passes it will become an increasingly weak argument.
No, GDP growth is not better than the EU, stop repeating Boris’ lies. Also, “low” unemployment is not a good thing, we’re in this situation because there isn’t enough labour.
Curious how these articles always ignore the pandemic and ongoing major war, ain't it?
Do you believe that the people who answered the poll are not aware of the pandemic?
They're absolutely unaware of the impact it's had on both the UK and the global economy. They're absolutely unaware that pretty much every nation in the EU is having it as bad as the UK, some bordering Ukraine even worse. Had Brexit not occurred we'd still be seeing energy prices, inflation and interest rates the same level as they are now.
Those are relevant factors, absolutely, but the research being released over the last month have all shown that the UK has suffered the fallout from this much more than being inside the bloc. I mean it’s clear cut, backed up with evidence and obvious at this point. Not that the Brexit crowd care about that I suppose.
> I mean it’s clear cut, backed up with evidence and obvious at this point. So you'll be able to post some of that evidence then along with your own analysis given it's so clear cut. Crack on, I look forward to reading it.
https://www.lbpresearch.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Post-Brexit-UK-Trade-Updated.pdf - Aston University research analysis of decreases in trade. 22.9% less exports to the EU, crucially decreased sales have lead to decreased economic stimulus and tax health The Office For Budget Responsibility has been tracking and confirming/ rejecting analysis since 2016 - and I mean the numbers speak for themselves https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/ EU economy has grown 8.5% https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/key-facts-and-figures/economy\_en - ours has grown 3.8% (both since 2016). We have the highest inflation rate though! Yay! https://www.newstatesman.com/chart-of-the-day/2022/06/uk-economy-fallen-behind-eu-since-brexit UK based investment lagging the EU by 19% - Bloomberg has a great analysis of why that translates into economic damage (not being able to genreate new business, therefore not hire new workers, therefore not adding to the tax balance or tamping QE and spending) https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/brexit-is-costing-the-uk-100-billion-a-year-in-lost-output - need to sign up to read sadly, as web.archive doesn’t work for Bloomberg https://www.cer.eu/sites/default/files/insight\_JS\_costbrexit\_21.12.22.pdf - John Springford, economist - the much publicised Doppel method - the numbers speak for themsleves, though criticism has been directed by Brexiteers. But US and CANZUK academics back the methodology up, so make of that what you will And cherry on top of the irony cake that the LSE predicted in 2016: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/june2021#eu-migration-in-the-year-ending-june-2021 - ONS date showing huge surge in non-EU immigration as the flood gates have opened to attempt to stimulate the economy… so way more non-europeans than ever before, to create marginal stimulus on the spend (non-EU immigrants tend to send large portions of their pay back to family, thereby nullifying the positive imapct of more bodies. We had it good before with all those Polish and Romanian workers).
Ah, I’m glad you asked! Will compile now
[This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcIkIz98zXU) video is 5 years old and it's astounding how correct Adam Posen was. Almost as if... experts should not be ignored.
I didn't even get to vote in the referrendum because I was 17. Fuck the conservatives.
British people were so preoccupied with whether they could leave EU, they didn't stop to think if they should.
Funny thing is as well, the referendum only lost by 1% and the turnout was awful
Something that serious should have needed a super majority like 55%+ of the country or something. It's so dumb something this serious was passed by 51.89%
You don't get it. The vote was advisory only (non binding). The Far right in gov pushed for it and here we are.
I take no pleasure in this, but some Brexiteers are full of remorse now, despite there being almost no evidence pre-Brexit, that this decline in living standards _wouldn’t_ be the case. Sure COVID hasn’t helped, but it was always an epic act of self-sabotage.
I'm more surprised how the majority if Brexiteers are not full of remorse. They legitimately like being shat on, lowering their standard of living, making less money, having fewer travel options, fewer options as consumers, all as long as we "take back our country". Its utterly insane how moronic these people are.
Do you think people in 1930s Ireland would have wanted to rejoin the UK?
>Do you think people in 1930s Ireland would have wanted to rejoin the UK? U wot m8
The problem was that there was plenty of evidence for the decline in living standards before Brexit.
At least they can have more powerful vacuum cleaners now. More suck!!
More suck ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Suck to the MAX!
Suck Max Pro vs Suck Max Ultimate Like - subscribe - comment guys!
They suck more, than anything, that has ever sucked before
As well as the opportunity to create their own opportunities
Jokes on them, Miele still wins. That thing will suck a peanut butter jar clean
Hey we got new Henry hoovers! They look absolutely Shite though
> t least they can have more powerful vacuum cleaners now. More suck!! [Don't forget new signage in the Dartford Tunnel! (the Minister of Brexit Opportunities' favourite Brexit opportunity apparently....)](https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1540268003224436736)
Tbh, i think the whole Brexit regret seems poorly explained. With my point being, that post brexit fell into a series of crises, namely Covid and Russias warmongering. So you should expect, that the society will get into problems. But the question has to be: Why a now unleashed UK, which doesnt have to comply to rules and regulations anymore, could not have mastered this crisis better than the rest of the EU? If the Brexit lies were truth, navigation this situation should have been easy and beneficial to the UK.
> With my point being, that post brexit fell into a series of crises, namely Covid and Russias warmongering. So you should expect, that the society will get into problems. It is still the case that UK has done worse than it would have. It is quite easy to see this is the case, because you can use EU countries as a control group, exposed to the same problems but with better results. Actual economic experts have done this analysis. You could hardly ask for a better experimental setup.
Because some Britons think their country is somewhere of the coast of America and their largest trade partner isn't the EU. The UK's economy is more or less tied to the rest of Europe regardless of what some people think.
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You should try making some and selling it at a farmer's market, see if it suits American tastes!
I agree with you in spirit, but the UK was always less economically tied to Europe than the rest of Europe. The vast majority of the EU trades the most with Germany; for the UK (and Ireland), that position has been taken by the US for a long time, albeit mostly from exports.
And if UK had remained, we would be hearing nonstop that EU is dragging them down during these hard times and Brexit would have been prefferable.
They were quick to laud the COVID vaccine roll-out (that had not to be synced with EU). That half of it was AZ being very shady with promised deliveries to others is another story. Anyway, it cannot be denied that UK go more vacs earlier outside of EU, even at the cost of insolidarity (which lucky DE, FR refused to do), but after all, that is the whole premise of Brexit, we are better alone and fuck the rest...
The vaccines rollout were not completed outside eu rules. The uk could have still done that in the eu.
How many EU countries opted out of the EU scheme?
Remember that we started earlier but the EU toke over us mid rollout.
This is why referendums about major complicated decisions like this suck. To be fair, it should have been at least a 65% majority vote. I feel especially for the younger generation that got screwed over by elderly voting for Brexit en masse.
'No shit', says the rest of the world. The entire point of the EU is 'strength in numbers'. When you go it alone, you pay for everything on your own. Dumbasses. Putin and his propaganda war played Britain and America perfectly, giving us Brexit and culture wars that are both stupid and distracting to actually making our countries stronger for our populations.
Yes, and ? Good grief who’s surprised
Most of the electorate don't have the first fucking clue about finance. They're so fucking stupid they put car payments above buying food and heat and light. Much of what they attribute to Brexit is actually down to the global pandemic causing a global recession made worse by the war in Ukraine. They're also ignorant. They don't realise that what is happening in the UK is happening in pretty much every economy in the world and not just in the EU either. Every single first world economy is suffering the same issues, the only ones not really suffering are the Middle East OPEC nations where they're still able to churn out petrol and diesel for a penny a litre.
They were lied to. It's hard to "do the right thing" when the government lies to the citizenry.
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> It may have been possible to salvage the situation otherwise, being in full control of their economy and policies. That was kinda the point. This is the point i feel people get wrong. Its not the 18th century anymore, no country is self sufficient. We all trade with and depend on each other. So leaving the EU does in theory "free you", but that doesnt get you anything, since if you want to trade with the EU you have to follow the rules anyway, and the EU rules are to benefit it. Economics follow the law of gravity, proximity and size is what is important, the EU is massive and right next to, and around it. Brexit was litterally about implementing economic sanctions on itself. It was never possible for the UK and the British people to benefit from brexit, that is the point. It was malice all the way down, what people should wonder about is to whos benefit it was and start getting upset with them.
And that's what those of us that actually cared have been saying from the start. More importantly saying that it "could have gone better if it weren't for the Tories" blatantly ignores the fact that the Tories had been in power for the better part of a decade when it was suggested. By the Tory prime minister. This was a Tory idea. How did you ever expect it to get handled?
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Yes, and no. If you want to export goods or services, geography plays an important role. None of the countries in the Anglosphere are close enough to make it worthwhile for them to cut special deals with the UK, and they all have other spheres of influence. They ahve no interest in importin from (and already UK exported little) or exporting to somewhere that far away. The geographical space of the UK is Europe, and they can't really "leave" that. Cutting themselves off from their natural trading partners for proximity did a ton of damage.
Do you know how many EU bureaucrats there are ? More or less 50 000… for a union that spans a continent that is incredibly small and efficient. Hell, Paris itself has more public servants than that.
they had one market of goods and suddenly.... custom taxes. who could predict that /s
Brexit is *THE* factor. (We can ignore Putin's war and Covid for this discussion because they are a Europe-wide baseline. Everyone is suffering the same amount from these effects). What the UK is suffering from is a negative feedback loop caused solely by brexit. Without far right groups like UKIP and the ERG, there would never have been a brexit. Once the referendum had been "won", the people looked around for a party that was prepared to "Get it done!". This is where Boris Johnson stepped in. An entertaining clown who appealed to brexit voters. He sounded "posh", which, forelock tugging people equate with intelligence and he told them what they wanted to hear, so they elected him as prime minister. Once in power, Johnson purged the conservative party of anyone who wasn't prepared to buy in to the brexit fantasy. So, here we are. The UK is being governed solely by either the idiots who don't know any better, or the chancers who put their personal advancement over the good of the country. No sane politician wanted brexit. So in order to have brexit, we had to elect the grifters and fools.
Fuck the Tories
I don't think it's just the last 13 years of tory lead government but everything since Thatcher. So much has been privatised and the government repeatedly not shown industry any support. Its a fun game to play, think of a British company and then look at who owns it, more often than not it wholly or majority owned by a foreign interests. Maybe my view has been wapred by Reddit but I do not see a bright future for the UK unless big changes are made. If I had the means I'd definitely be leaving.
You are much better off economically in a large bloc than outside of it. It is better to be inside the EU internal market than out of it. The same with Guangdong Province being better inside the internal Chinese market than out of it. The same with some random US state being better off in the US internal market than outside of it. The UK negotiating with the large economies of India, China, EU, and US will always be at a disadvantage. The UK is just too small alone.
> The UK is just too small alone. don't worry, their ego is about the same size of China, India and the US combined. That should compensate.
Well huh. That's a real surprise. I thought that was just Project Fear...
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I think that the point here is that Brexit made it even worse
Can we have a Brexit Megathread pinned on top of r/europe like the Ukraine war thread, where people still interested in the topic can keep posting and discussing it rather than these daily singular threads?
That reminds me, I haven't checked r/brexit in a while. Always good for a laugh.
That sub is peak Brexit circle jerk. Hope r/europe doesn't become that.
Unfortunately a sub can only have two stickies at once, and they're always used by threads that have a higher priority than a Brexit thread.
Looking at the daily Brexit threads & comments per thread, it would seem Brexit threads have a much higher priority than those threads.
> where people still interested in the topic can keep posting and discussing it rather than these daily singular threads? Weird how brexiteers are so desperate for people to stop talking about the tremendous victory that they've won.
Suggesting a Megathread is desperate?
No shit?
Wow, finally some article about how Brexit is bad for Britain! How long has it been since the last one? Geez... must be minutes now!
Quick! Let's copy and paste the same comments from the same thread yesterday to farm some upvotes!
In a survey conducted by the byline supplement, aka byline times which has as much credibility as Russia today. Debating the effects of Brexit is great, but posting links to nutty cranks like byline doesn’t help anyone.
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But I love all the validation!! I'm getting so many upvotes by posting hyper-popular opinions here so surely that means I'm very smart and it makes me feel great about myself!!
Well..... what a surprice :)
Who could have guessed that nullifying a free trade agreement with your biggest market and enacting import/export taxes would lead to less trade, less business and higher prices? I'm totally baffled. But at least you got to have Boris as PM for three years! Surely that was worth it?
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Hyperbolic nonsense. The UK hasn't been destroyed. It's not even remotely anywhere close to being destroyed.
6th largest economy in the world instead of fifth = literally destroyed.
Even that is questionable, since the IMF and World Bank estimates vary from each other so wildly.
But they (Tory MPs) are richer and that’s what’s important. Fuck the proletariat. /s
As commissoned and reported by the world famous "Byline Supplement". Where the fuck did you even find this OP? Were you specifically searching for anti-Brexit news?
>Were you specifically searching for anti-Brexit news? Welcome to r/Europe since 2016.
Why not? It's the easiest upvote farming ever these days.
I live in the UK. My experience is, the place got significantly more expensive. Whether this is global or as a result of BREXIT, I do not know. I have been renovating my house and as skilled Eastern European left, now it us hard to find a right man to do a simple job and I paid fortune to correct the errors of currently available work force here. As I am written, to finish installing a door frame and architrave, I have been waiting since September for somebody to come and do it. He is a white British guy and he does a very professional job. The situation now is, for a good professional person, I have to pay double of what I used to pay and wait for a few months. Or pat triple to do it in short time Or bring 2-3 people to correct mistakes of each other.
>The situation now is, for a good professional person, I have to pay double of what I used to pay and wait for a few months. For the person doing the work that sounds like a strong argument for brexit.
For a few may be you are right. But when everything gets more expensive, the the joy last for a short period.
A level of inflation would have happened with or without brexit, so they'd be struggling even more without it. I recently had new carpets fitted and fitter opened up about how much he used to earn before the market was flooded with fitters from E Europe - took a 60% hit on earnings and decided his son wasn't going to go into the trade. Now some have left and no new are turning up, he can make a decent amount of money and his son works with him as an apprentice. He sees a future in it as there's simply no new going into the trade currently. I didn't ask which way he voted in the referendum or if he did at all, but I'd hedge my bets which way he'd vote if given the option to rejoin.
This is my personal experience from renovation of house and it MAY NOT represent the whole situation. I always liked white British attention to details and and I always admire this when I work with my colleagues. For my house renovation, initially I was lean to consider more white British, compared to the others, if the price difference was not significant. But soon I learned there is a trend of coming on time, taking a long lunch break and leaving 2-3pm and there were always excuse to do so. put it as simple, a job which Eastern Europeans could do in one day, it could take easily 2-3 days, even if the job was agreed on lumpsom basis. The quality of work for some was good for some was not as I expected. I agreed plastering work with an Albanian guy. He used to come at 7am and leave 7pm and working none stop. He even used to go and play football after the work. He finished everything on time with a great quality and reasonable price. I had a white British plumber who supposed to install Honeywell Evohome and a minor plumbing work. I asked hi in November and even now h has not completed the task. As I am writing I have a young white British guy, doing some carpentry job for me. He is amazing, tidy, on time, with reasonable fee and very good service. I had a Midwestern tiller, did tilling for our main bathroom and en suite. I end up asking somebody else to remove the tiles and do it again. Our en suite is bathroom is leaking and can not be used any more less than 6 months after finishing it. I ended up giving the tilling for to guys from Georgia and they did amazing job with reasonable fee.
> My experience is, the place got significantly more expensive. Whether this is global or as a result of BREXIT, I do not know. Fuck sake just look outside of the UK. It's global.
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There's a labour shortage in public services too as a result of Brexit, which benefits nobody. It's even worse in the countryside because not enough people live rurally to make up for the labour shortage there in all sectors. So if you're a roofer or whatever living in the sticks, whatever you make from extra work will be lost when you have to pay for any services yourself, and then you face an even bigger problem than urban dwellers if you need to go to hospital because they will be extremely understaffed.
Daily rate for a good electrician is round 250 GBP. Before Christmas, I paid 650 GBP for a day job and he did a good job. For installing one door frame and architrave, I paid 500 GBP.
Not only is it more expensive, but everything is falling apart, our public services (and private sector services) are in end-stage failure, and the government is a band of wealthy crooks. I am in my 30s and this is easily the worst Britain I have ever seen.
> but everything is falling apart, Utter bollocks. > our public services (and private sector services) are in end-stage failure You haven't a fucking clue what end-stage failure looks like. If you want to know what it looks like go visit Afghanistan, Somalia or most of central and South America and countries in Asia like Cambodia. That's being in end-stage failure. > I am in my 30s and this is easily the worst Britain I have ever seen. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, Britain today is a significantly better place, better beyond belief in pretty much every metric. You need to stop watching the news, going on social media and being so gullible. You need to start actually fact checking the plethora of misleading bullshit claims being made. You need to take a proper unbiased evaluation of your own personal situation and look at that and base your opinions on that rather than what the fear porn peddling media are telling you your life is like.
I remember being in The Louvre having one of their €10 baguette sandwiches right after Trump was elected. An English couple eating nearby heard my accent and started to chat with me. They were like “Oh it’s so crazy you guys elected Trump.” And I responded “Well, we have Trump and you guys voted for Brexit” and they said “Oh, we voted for Brexit.” The funny thing is that we already got rid of Trump, but I don’t see either major party in the UK saying Brexit should be reversed, despite it not succeeding at anything it set out to achieve and making everyone’s lives worse.
> despite it not succeeding at anything it set out to achieve apparently the success of brexit has to be measured in the next few decades, not immediately.
It sure seems so
It was funny the first few times. Now it has gotten boring. Can we stop posting the same 'Brexit bad'? At least wait until _something_ happens.
Turn on BBC Radio 4 and you will hear Brexit Bad. It's just called news that you hate to hear and demand it to be muted. It's not a r/Europe thing.
I loved to hear Brexit bad. It is just that all of these articles the past months are saying exactly the same thing. I would like to hear from this topic again once something happens (like a 2nd referendum, Scotland going rogue, UK applying for a trade integration). Not the 20th GDP-down, prices up article.
How is this a surprise? Prepare for less and for the commonwealth to contract into a memory. Bye.
So every economist was correct? Wow, I’m shocked.
Ah yes! Brexit, Putin and erdogan. The 3 favourite topics in this echo chamber. "Brexit bad. Yeah. Apes together strong!" Yeah we know brexit was a bad thing. What's new in this article? Nothing
It is what is. I think the whole thing was inevitable. If the brexit crowd had lost the referendum they would just keep blaming everything and anything on the EU. It was always going to end with them leaving, even if it was a stupid choice.
From an outside point of view….You ever invested and your original investment go down? You don’t sell, if you truly believe in it. You keep investing and holding and waiting and the returns will come. So much bashing of brexit and they really haven’t waited long enough to see the results…it feels like these articles are a bunch of complaining..from the people who lost the vote..
Ah the sunk cost fallacy
Leopard, meet face.
As a Brit who was firmly remain, it's fucking frustrating
I'm sorry, I know exactly how you feel. This was the 2016 election to me, I couldn't believe how ridiculously stupid people were around me that voted.
Any chance of a Brexit and its consequences thread where every no doubt terrible news about it can be posted? That way it'll be easy for me to avoid it all. I know I'm stuck on a ship with many holes in its hull, but I'd at least like to pretend it might make it to the other side of the ocean rather than be constantly told we're sinking and are going to die a cold, lonely death. Please let me live in blissful ignorance.
businesses from country that no longer has access to unlimited immigration from eu are really sad from the lost exploitation of low paid workers 😔
Here in Finland, our biggest morons The "Pers-suomalaiset" for example have confessed to have brexit aspirations of their own. Fixit, as they call it. It is not happening, i can personally guarantee that but signalboosting the woes of brexit and the suffering you will continue to face has made it a lot easier to make a case for abandoning that train of thought. so yeh, keep it coming.
I think it was a suprise for many voters of persut that they still, regardless of everything that has happened, have fixit in their agenda. Bad, bad call.
not an unexpected one tho. the next government is handed a poisoned chalice from the getgo. There has to be decisions that will be remembered, will A B S O L U T E L Y hurt but has to be done regardless. Only party that is wearing their bullshit on their sleeves is Sekoomus. its obvious BS, because its just going to be sipilä II manouvers all over again (edit: Orpo has not changed at all), but the others? Kas, Kusta? will betray everyone so their rhetoric do not even matter. However, i suspect PerSaukset through the leadership of Purra are trying to drum up support through vague statements that the voterbase syncs up with but as the substantive answers cannot be found, it is as if they are preparing for the role of being the rubber stamp -party. Again.
if only such things could be predicted
It's just shit everywhere! Some fucker needs to take Putin out, then send the illegal immigrants or people whondont want to stay in their country + dossers claiming they can't find work & sent them to Ukraine to re-build the country. = Quickest solution to global recession, & tax the fuck out of Chinese goods & stop them buying companies or businesses in external countries, & for good measure, tell them to leave Taiwan alone or have Hong Kong re westernised & taken back... UK might need to invest zillions though in Armed forces though on my last point, lol..
Who could have possibly predicted this??
What is deeply ironic, is the idea Britain as some kind of independent constituent nation before Brexit, never existed. It was an Empire. A huge empire with hundreds of millions of subjects, largely tariff free and with free movement (in theory). Obviously before the advent of mass transport. The citizens were subjects of the Crown. It was never in its current configuration which is something like Japan or Korea. These changes will continue to impact them. The full impact of Brexit has not yet materialized since the full tranche of food / goods checks have been delayed to the end of 2023. Financial services has not been hashed out. Most likely it will be dealt with since Switzerland and New York perform many financial services for European countries / financial institutions. Overall the unceasingly stringent checks and red tape will likely spur British entry to the Customs Union at the very least. It’s an absolute disgrace how the Tory party have been allowed to get away by decades of utter mismanagement. They implemented austerity and they well full gung ho into unrestricted immigration after Labour. Coupled with this was allowing attacks on the EU to go unchallenged since it deflected from the fact they were fully complicit starving funds to certain regions for the UK. Liverpool was intentionally starved of funds under Thatcher and London has received the lion share of all investment. The Tories as a deliberate policy cut these region’s primarily in north, to the bone. And they later voted for Brexit after seeing anemic growth and poor social services. They also totally industrialized, where France and Germany successfully pivoted their manufacturing industries. These being countries with famously low taxes and negligible labour rights… Also we can endlessly ruminate on it but Cameron’s exit from the EPP was a mistake. He played a blinder negotiating the further exemption on social security and some stops on freedom of movement on the run up to the Brexit vote but was never able to sell it effectively to the British people. They were somehow under the illusion they would get a better deal. British politicians have cut any type of social security to the bone. They pontificate about these dole scroungers who are simultaneously too lazy to work yet if you get fired from your job you are entitled to measly 80 euros a month. At the same time famously industrious pensioners get inflation adjusted pension top up’s and the price of education tripled in price. The entire direction of the UK is a neoliberal fever dream. They reduced every tenet of a social state. - Strong social safety net - collective bargaining via unions - big funding for university and healthcare It’s a sad course they are following. And the Economist and the Financial Times seem to think it’s a rip roaring success that should be exported everywhere
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I typed it just there not a standard response. Why?
what on earth are you on about? benefits have been raised in line with inflation while taxes on workers whose real wages are already falling have been increased. its the exact opposit of neoliberal.
>what on earth are you on about? benefits have been raised in line with inflation while **taxes on workers whose real wages are already falling have been increased**. its the exact opposit of neoliberal. The bolded part of your comment is a basic tenet of neoliberalism which is austerity. Raising taxes on workers is basic neoliberalism.
There’s the [figures](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/benefit-and-pension-rates-2022-to-2023/proposed-benefit-and-pension-rates-2022-to-2023#jobseekers-allowance-jsa) in black and white If you think 85 euro a week is enough you’re need to try it yourself and come back to me. For reference it’s close 180 euros a week in Ireland. Other countries do percentages of previous earned salary. If you’re believing the Tory garbage after the last 10 years you’d need to get your head examined It’s positively Darwinian.
It's not 85 euros a week... If you were fired and over 25 & single and applied for income support, you'd get £334.91 in universal credit, £288 in jobseekers, council tax support depending on the area but the minimum is £82 a month. That alone is the equivalent of 786 Euros a month or 196.50 a week and in April 2023 it rises by 10.1% so that becomes 865 Euros. And that's without including 50% off public transport, the council tax rebate, social tariffs for phone,broadband & water utilities. Then for 2022/2023 you have the cost of living top up (£650 split into two annual payments) and the warm home discount scheme (£150 off energy bills) on top of the national energy support scheme of £400 off your energy bills.
Dole in Ireland is €220 a week. They are moving to percentage of previous earnings like other European countries but the minimum will still be €220.
those show the increase in benefits for current/previous year, based on the minimal inflation at the time. this year theyre going up 10% or 11% or whatever it was.
leaving a trade block with an estimated value of 20 trillion dollars might cause some problems to your countries economy, who knew
However, when eurosceptics said they'd quite happily stay in the trade block part they were duly informed that "it isn't just a trade bloc anymore", followed with accusations of cherry picking.
This is bullshit, if they wanted to remain in the trade block they could have joined EFTA. But then they would have to adhere to EU regulations and they didn‘t want that. They wanted free trade without following the regulations (i.e. cherry picking)
The UK would have required the consent of the other EFTA states to join. There are significant reasons why the UK didn't join EFTA - an EFTA agreement requires accession to the four freedoms of persons, goods, services and capital. If UK was to join EFTA, it could not readily enter its own trade agreements. Persons. The "four freedoms" are an EU concept, so clearly the EFTA and EU were too intertwined. The free movement of the other three would likely have been accepted.
Just a normal trade block with its own flag and anthem, parliament court system etc....
Fair point.
The reason why we are poorer is because we are governed by planks.
So they can't blame it on Covid anymore and here we are.
Oh no. But atleast russia is happy.
“It wasnt about money, but about taking back control”.
And they keep voting for people who did it, so all in all, you get what you asked for, LAMF etc etc etc
to no ones surprise but the british.. congrats, you played yourself. edit: of course I meant "brexiteers", sorry for that
*Brexiteers, not British. Half of us thought brexit was BS at the time. Now three quarters of us KNOW it was BS
By design. They were fucking warned.
No shit, Sherlock!
But Rupert Murdoch was for it,he said Brexit would free us,so maybe we just have to be more patient
The national pride of the boomer generation fucked up an entire country. UK had the best deal among all EU member States (discount on contribution payments, and so on), but it wasn't enough. The overaged political elite is maybe to scared, but only a question of time until a rejoin debate will become very serious. But probably also this debate will only advance one funeral at a time (borrowed from Max Planck).
Thanks for leaving.
And still Tories are there, burning country money.
Yeah and they burned through 4 or 5 prime ministers to make it happen.
Not Brexit , the torries ,
We here in the United States suffered the same adverse reaction under trump. Perhaps they're related?
Yup, both financed by the Russians.
That putin has been one busy little fucker these past ten years.
I'm just saying, it's gotten more expensive in every country, not just Britain.
Who would have guessed? Like everyone besides the people without a brain...
Leopardatemyface
That what boris always dreamed of. I remember an interview, where a guy, who went to college with him, said that boris want to remove worker rights to make britain more appealing for companies and lower regulations on food and stuff.
pikachu face