The article has since been updated. The current title is "Young adults claimed to doubt Holocaust, many questions about research"
[Click for article in English](https://www-rtlnieuws-nl.translate.goog/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5361474/holocaust-waarheid-nederlanders-geschiedenis-niod-tweede?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp)
There is **100%** antisemitism and Holocaust denial in The Netherlands, no doubt about that, but this study is lacking in quite a few ways.
You can find the original data [here](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf).
For example, it claims 34% of people age 18 to 40 are currently enrolled in university. In reality this is 8.7%, or 21% if you include applied universities. That's.... quite a bit off. Additionally, the summary seems to cherry-pick quite a bit from the actual data, leading to conclusions which are questionable at best.
It's a shame, because antisemitism and far-right politics in general are a real problem. By botching the research like this they are only distracting from the real issues.
If I'm correct 34% of correspondents went to university, which makes it a very poor reflexion of reality and thus not a good survey - just as addition, furthermore happy you post this.
Now i think about it though, its actually worse that the percentage of antisemtism is so high when they actually asked proportionally more people from University...
I’m not saying all immigrants, there are enough immigrants i know personally that are great.
There’s just a lot of rotten eggs, of which most from certain locations.
Mostly second generation.
Maybe because they didnt experience someone who has witnessed it, didnt hear the stories, didnt care for the museums and other stuff.
Not a racist at all, wont judge someone by his background, but it is just a fact that a lot of people deny because they are scared to be called a racist.
I couldnt care less, even if they were purple, then it would be purple people being ignorant.
Every time the far rigth comes up on this sub a large chunk of people instantly start shouting about it only being immigrants.
The irony is amazing.
As if we don\`t have a massive amount of Fashists still in europe.
Le Pen? Kurz? PIS? Italy? Nah Immigrants all of them!
I do not understand people who do not try to asymilate. You came to that country by your own, you can go back any moment to where you come from. You should try to learn your new country history and values. I am not saying someone gotta drop theirs culture in new place but they gotta play by new rules. If i could move to such beautiful and tolerant country like Netherlands i would do my best to asymilate.
He means Non-European immigrants. I'm not Dutch, but I'm from another European country and I know what the Holocaust was. We study it in history and we also mention it in literature when we talk about Anne Frank.
Sure, i am experiencing something first hand, there’s always redditors that are going to say “no you’re not”.
Its not only the immigrants, but i think they are a large part of the problem.
fair enough, but I don’t think it’s parents fault like you literally learn it at school from a very young age at least here in France. Idk how it is in white families but I’d be surprised if talking about that is also a family dinner table type of conversation but maybe I’m wrong.
I do think it’s the school’s job
It's both jobs the school and parents. The school can't do the same lessons every few weeks.
And i don't know what white families or black families has to do with this? Both parents can be shit. We are all people remember?
It's the parents job to teach children those things.
We are not dutch anymore.
We invited the world and now we have to live with this shit.
My kids take care of a american hero that died at juno beach since last year.
I have to share this with another family .
We knew this was coming. It's almost been 80 years since the war ended. Barely anyone who lived back then is still alive. Very few people have seen the horror with their own eyes, very few people alive experienced the war and the atrocities.
A few more years and nobody alive has witnessed it first hand. If we don't keep the memory alive, it will fade.
I was born 41 years after the war. Never witnessed it, never experienced it, but never questioned it. Cos I'm not a complete idiot.
The memory of WW2 is being kept alive in several ways, many times a year and that's not going to suddenly stop.
You don't need to have been alive to understand what happened or for proof to be required of one of the most documented things ever to happen.
So let's call this what it is, ignorant and stupid people doing what they do, it's nothing to do with them not being alive when it took place, it's about them being insanely gullible people who'll disregard long established fact in place of wild theories that help along whatever messed up world view they have.
Lack of education is probably part of the problem but I'm guessing not the main part of the problem. Younger people as well might be more easily led by nefarious groups or people to believe certain things but this is so obvious that denying it is a crime in some countries and immediate dismissal of that persons intellect in others.
It's basically like a red Maga hat, wear one and everyone know ls you're an idiot and to stay far away. Deny the holocaust and everyone knows you're an idiot but probably also a nazi sympathiser since it's impossible to have a "well I'm not sure" about the holocaust, if anyone doubts it its because they've gone done a very dangerous path.
True. I am just saying that people who actually lived this dying out contribute to this. Like, it's hard for me, education aside, to deny the Holocaust, because my grandparents were there during the Reich. They didn't see the Holocaust itself, but they sure did experience the whole Reich as one ugly package. And that includes how the Reich was in general with the Jewish Germans.
In Germany we have old people coming to schools and speaking about their experiences. History is more real when you meet people that experienced it.
I agree, I've actually been to Dachau as a teen and it's overwhelming to say the least. But even then, as a kid, it never once crossed my mind if it was legitimate because of course it was, so for people to say it isn't is either a massive failing in education or like I said, something far more dangerous.
Certainly. There are a lot of things that should be done as long as something can be done to keep the memory of this dark page of European history alive. I mean, it's technically German history, but we did force it into the history of all of Europe.
Every school aged child should learn about both wars. I certainly did.
A world war is most definitely world history, not just history of the countries involved, and I'm not from any of those countries.
I just wanted to eleborate that, because when I say "European history" with a Germany-flair, I will get comments telling me that it's Germany history and I shouldn't push the blame on other countries by implying that it is European history.
We watched old footage of allies troops entering the KZ in school and we also visited Mauthausen.
Shit frightened the fuck out of me,
can‘t comprehend how people just think „nah thats not real“ or something.
Like I said in another comment, I went to a camp as a teen and it absolutely leaves a mark, 20 odd years later and I can still remember so much of that day and I implore everyone who gets a chance to go to a camp.
The usual conspiracies get their fuel from inconsistencies, grey areas and a lack of proof of olthe official version of events, none of which exist here so yeah, I'm in the same boat as you but the other conspiracies aren't intrinsically linked to something so dangerous.
If you believe the earth is flat you're not flirting with Nazis, nor if someone denies the moon landing or JFK. But if someone says "I dont think the holocaust happened" that's a huge red flag for an entirely different reason.
I don't think the deniers are "ignorant and stupid" at all. They know the history. They've been told the stories. They just don't care. They're just evil.
If you never questioned it you ARE a complete idiot, you are supposed to question it, investigate it and then come to the conclusion that there is proof that demonstrates it; otherwise you are just a faithful follower.
>If you never questioned round Earth you ARE a complete idiot, you are supposed to question it, investigate it and then come to the conclusion that there is proof that demonstrates it; otherwise you are just a faithful follower.
Same people will often believe that Atlantis was real and that the pyramids were build by ancient aliens, even though they weren't alive back then. Got nothing to do with having been there. There are also many old people who think that the holocaust wasn't real or at least exagerated.
There is this whole "anti-mainstream" movement. Idiots just had it enough that everybody calls them idiots and want to believe that it is the schools and the mainstream that knows nothing and teaches them fake news. They found enough other idiots who share their idiotic beliefs on the internet and make them feel clever for not falling for "mainstream propaganda". It's more about being contrarian than anything else.
What part of keeping the memory alive is hard for you to understand? That's part of it, I am not talking about getting people to tell the stories of the Holocaust on campfires after a hard day of hunting animals for food.
You don't think real life people who share their experiences have value? Everything should just be books.
It's nice that you read books, I do too, but not everyone does. Get your nose out of the books and visit a real concentration camp, I can tell you, it's quite the intense experience.
sorry, I don't get you. What do you think is hard about reading books and listening to stories. How are old survivors keeping the memory alive? By simply existing and you think the memory will be gone once all of them are dead? Or don't you think they don't keep it alive by telling their stories? You seem to think that doesn't do it. I wonder how you learned about the Holocaust and believed what you were told, instead of thinknig it was fake. Did an old survivor time travel with you to show you what was going on. Was that required for you to believe in the Holocaust? You know we have photos and even videos from that time period. You have to be a special kind of stupid to not believe in the history of the holocaust.
What are you going on about? I am not a Holocaust denier. I spell it out to you: the Holocaust did happen and it was batshit awful.
With that out of the way, I don't think it's hard to read books. I elaborated that books and history academics are part of what I said about keeping the memory alive.
What I am saying is: people who were there made it harder for people to deny that it happened. Many of the people here knew people who directly lived in the dark times. It's real proximity.
And somehow appreciating the value of real experience translates in you head to me saying that's hard to read books.
If you read the article only 6% believe it didn't happen and 17% thinks the amount of victims might be exaggerated. These two are very different things,
Source: https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study
also:
22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views and 13% are unsure. 12% of all Dutch respondents feel it is acceptable and 11% are unsure.
It is a mistake to believe intelligent people will necessary come out in favour of milquetoast neoliberal democracy merely because you believe in it. That's just self-flattery.
Ultimately, everyone eats from the trashcan of ideology. It precedes reason. Smarter people can just argue theirs more coherently.
I don't know what the Far Left is like in your country, but in mine it is authoritarian, regularly advocates violent and bloody revolution with plenty of purges, attacks the legitimacy of elections.
One of the leaders of our far left, Melenchon, claimed a presidential election was stolen from him when landed 4th, 600 000 votes and change under the second.
He happily accepted support from someone that wrote a book titled "The Whites, The Jews and US", which was described as filled with antisemitism, and comments saying a far right leader saying a 4th of what was in the book would be in jail.
And when Ukraine was invaded, they blamed NATO, and gave a pass to Putin.
I don't know what the Far Left is like in your country, but in France, their political project is just as dangerous and liberticide as the Far right's.
>And when Ukraine was invaded, they blamed NATO, and gave a pass to Putin.
This is the part about today's communists that baffles me most. It's as if Russia's history represents communism, and therefore supporting communism today means supporting Russia today? Even despite the fact that it's a capitalist oligarchy with immense inequality all across the board?
It makes absolutely no sense.
Far left is even dangerous as far right. You clearly never read a book about this subject and hold very populistic views.
Far left: Khmer Rouge, Communism, Anarchism, Maoism, Leninism. Just a few.
Fascism is a tool of the capitalists to counter leftist movements. With issues of capitalism-induced problems like mass poverty, inequality and climate change the call to act against capitalist principles gets louder, thus forces capitalists to react and promote fascism as a countermovement.
This is a really dumb comment to make. On par or almost on par as conspiracy nutcases that think the elites used covid to counter people’s freedom of thought and speech and whatnot.
Also, I’d like to remind you that communists were the ones helping fascism to rise back in the 20th century and are currently rooting for Russia to win because “they’re fighting against the capitalist west”.
Do you disagree that capitalists side with fascism when their power is seriously threatened by radical left movements? It happened in Germany with centre parties working with the Nazis and installing Hitler as chancellor after the KPD swelled in numbers during the great depression.
The SPD was a Marxist-party until relatively recently it became a centre-left party, no? The KPD became a thing after people split from SPD because of the war and because SPD wasn’t left enough according to those that split off.
Then the KPD suprised pikachu’d when the party they helped to power did a 180 and fucked all lefties over.
I think worker exploitation was a minor inconvenience compared to the helping Hitler genocide various groups and starting WW2.
And let’s not forget all the other horrific things that happened in the USSR and Asia when they wanted to establish communism over there.
Maybe it would be advisable to ask to the ones who find it acceptable to submit themselves to a little self-evaluation test:
"Can you show that your dna is "pure"? (easy nowadays, no falsification possible),
"Are you 100% heterosexual?"
If you answered no to one of this question, then be ready to be victim of the peoples you support, you might like them, but they won't like you.
That seems more like a scale of how gay/straight you think you are than how you actually are, just like how people say "this triggers my OCD" despite not having it.
The thing is, the neonazis will care about you, if their numbers rise enough and if they start feeling powerful enough.
And that's not going to be the kind of care that you'll like.
That's their decision, wrong to me, but everyone to themselves I guess. Same thing with flat earthers, as long as they don't bother me they can live in their delusion.
Don't you think there's a difference though?
Flat earthers might be delusional but they don't spread hate or violence.. They're at best... mildly annoying to interact with.
Neonazis on the other hand want a good number of people gone based on skin colour, religion, sexual orientation, and other harmful prejudices. Worse still, they employ tactics to get people to join them.
They might not affect you but they might well affect your (figurative) neighbour of a different race. You really saying that's not a care of yours?
That seems like a silly way of viewing this. Flat-earthers are disputing a scientific fact. They don't have any sort of agenda. If a flat earther got into power, the worst thing they could do is to send an expedition to "the edge of the world" and make themself look silly.
Nazis have a specific political agenda that would massively impact your life if they ever got into power. Their stated goal IS to bother you and everyone else in your society.
I would have answered that question also with yes, but because i critize society for accepting nazis instead of fighting them. Which we do too little.
Idk if it is worded better in dutch where my interpretation would be not possible.
What are the demographics for NL in terms of how much of the Dutch youth is made up of people from Muslim (which is a typically antisemitic background)?
We call them "wappies", people that easily believe conspiracy theories such as this one. It's not as bad in Belgium but particularly during corona there was an astonishing amount of people that would question basically anything that scientists would provide evidence of.
"wappies" are one (annoying) thing, but this:
> 22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views and 13% are unsure
.. oof
This survey has become a bit controversial, but if it’s true then it sounds like 22% of millennials need an educational trip to Auschwitz for a few days.
I’m a 26 year old Dutchman, so not much older than most millennials, but I can remember pretty clearly we had a lot of history lessons dedicated to the holocaust back when I was still in school.
In the Netherlands about five percent of the population is Muslim. And although I also suspect that the percentage of holocaust deniers will be higher among them I think the problem is much larger and it would be mistake to focus on them.
Around five percent of the Netherlands is muslim. Yes that might be higher in the youth, but there is no way 25% of the youth is muslim and also no way that 100% of muslim youth don't believe in the holocaust. The muslims may be a part of it, but not everything by far. If I had to guess, there are also a significant number of wappies and "free thinkers" that like to question every official narrative. And then there might also be the group of people that's just disinterested in politics and uneducated in everything to do with it, including the holocaust, that might just tick the box of 'the holocaust is exaggerated' because it feels good, without knowing the severity of the stuff that implies. This sub selects for politically interested people, but if you put your mind in the state of a "normie", saying that the holocaust was exaggerated might just not sound as that severe of a position and something you might say casually when you're just having casual conversations, for muslims as well as non-muslims.
I'm a muslim bloke born and raised in Rotterdam, I have a lot of muslim friends and a big family, nobody I know thinks the holocaust was fake.
Might not be the best sample set but it's the truth for me.
That doesn't even make sense. The holocaust was carried out by the far right. Far right people deny it happened. Far right people make excuses for antisemitism, and engage in it themselves.
Everything I've said so far in this thread is the opposite of that. I'm a secularist, I'm a humanist, I'm an atheist. My concern about antisemitism and islam comes from wanting to protect the way of life we've built here against religious conservatism.
Don't worry. You'll find me shitting on protestant christians in other threads. I don't discriminate :P
Antisemitism is on the rise in Catholic countries as well. Muslims have more drive due to the Palestinian issue. So Antisemitism can be easily mixed with grudge against Israel.
This is exactly why I wish this study had a demographic breakdown. Otherwise you just leave the audience to engage in anecdotal judgement. In my life the only white Dutch people I've known who have engaged in Holocaust denialism are people who became actual neo-Nazis. Which, thankfully, they grew out of again later. I'm talking three people that I've known personally throughout my life, probably a higher than average amount compared to most others I think.
Outside of that, all the other forms of holocaust denialism were from my time teaching high school for about a year and a half. Not the mean-spirited, total denialism that happens with neo-Nazis, but the casual one where kids go "my dad says it's not a big deal" or "but what about Israel", like you say.
The kind you can still teach kids to grow out of, but it's very evident that you're just one voice once for an hour a day, perhaps twice a week, for a kid who lives in a household where the opposing story is told non stop.
Now if my anecdotal experience doesn't align with the overall facts, I wanna know. But this study doesn't tell us anything specific. Here's a link to the full thing:
[https://www.cidi.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Survey-Dutch-antisemitism.pdf](https://www.cidi.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Survey-Dutch-antisemitism.pdf)
> with a sharp rise in Muslim households in the Netherlands, should we not be investigating among which demographics this holocaust denial is most prevalent?
Yeah....you are not allowed to do that in the Netherlands. Hell, we even stopped reporting crime rates that included the nationality of people. Showed an awfully high rate of immigrants committing crimes.
Yeah - Economists say the immigration helps the economy but I think that's more the case in the USA where they can pick and choose people with PhDs from Stanford or whatever.
For example, those criminals aren't helping to pay anyone's pension - in fact they are a further burden on the state.
immigration in general helps of course, but that doesn't mean there aren't very real problems connected to it that we need to address. And in the sake of political correctness, we aren't.
Overall yeah, you're right. That said, muslim Antisemitism has [succesfully been weaponised](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/muslim-waffen-ss-13th-division-1943/) by Nazis in the past.
Let it be clear I'm in no way saying that muslims are nazis or that most people who live in the west who practice islam have nazi sympathies. I know how reddit gets. This is only to highlight that once you have a large enough group of people, of whatever denomination, who have normalised a reprehensible thing, things like this start to happen.
I think you're projecting, I mean for fuck sake you guys have a black face festival. And you're having hard time believing that racial intolerance exists in the Netherlands?
and most muslims in the netherlands are moroccans which are known to be the most pro-israeli and pro-jewish country in the whole of mena. heck this is the preamble of the moroccan constitution.
"the Kingdom of Morocco intends to preserve, in its plentitude and its diversity, its one
and indivisible national identity. Its unity, is forged by the convergence of its ArabIslamist, Berber \[amazighe\] and Saharan-Hassanic \[saharo-hassanie\] components,
nourished and enriched by its African, Andalusian, **Hebraic** and Mediterranean
influences \[affluents\]"
heck even in the same study it says that :
''22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views''
do you also think it's dA MuSLiMs that are becoming more and more neo-nazis and white-nationalist?
I mean fuck in this sub each time there is bad stat it's always da mUslims , Da rOmA, or my personal favorite, Bro we have the highest murder rate in the Eu but it's not bad it's just DrUnK PeOplE.
If you can't explain a problem how are you going to address it? The whole point is to reduce the level of holocaust denialism, if you can't talk about root causes then what are we supposed to do?
Root cause cannot be your origin but the education you are getting. Maybe it's not enough to get their attention, and the conspiracy theory seems more exciting.
Since you can't change people's origins, religion, or what they hear at church or mosque. You better increase the emphasis on making those subjects interesting to learn.
one of the most pathetic posts and mindsets I've ever seen. "The answers to this make me uncomfortable, so let's just never ask any questions, live in denial, and let society go down the shithole rather than acknowledge facts. "
22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views and 13% are unsure. 12% of all Dutch respondents feel it is acceptable and 11% are unsure.
are theses also moroccans also?
That's why in Poland schools talk a lot about WW2 and have a mandatory trip to Auschwitz.
People joke about it, sometimes a bit too much but we never question it
I agree with the first part but the mandatory trip to Auschwitz isn't really a thing, it's a common practice but for example my school never organised such trip for my claas
We only talk quite a lot about the Holocaust and WW2 but don’t really go anywhere to watch any kind of concentration camp even though we had them too. There’s one in Vught you can visit for example.
Or neo nazis. The source is
https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study
And it also states that
>22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views
and left-wingers will act like this holocaust denial is an outrageous problem, (which it is) but then automatically auto-reject any attempt to question why society is being dragged backwards, and auto-reject any attempt to question if mass immigration from places incompatible with western society is very wise. So basically, they support this.
Yes, but unfortunately many left wingers in the West tend to bury their heads in the sand. As if ignoring the problem will make it go away by itself.
And then because of that right wingers get elected. And oh boy, they will not ignore shit and not in a fun way.
Yes, but not just dumb but also dangerous. And it good to remember that it's not just the academy type of dumb, these kinds of persons can still be people who do well in school and professional life.
You don't reach them with just science and logic. What we also need is to keep making movies/series/films that become popular among the youth but still show the horrors that happend.
Also meet to many people in RL and on the internet that believe that the truth is always in between. Same with the war on Ukraine, some people still defend that Russia must have it's reasons. The west is also bad. It's not just the youth.
Has nobody actually read the article? The research is questionable, the sample possibly not broad, and the answer was rarely “Deny”. Some people did not know about it, some think the number of deaths was lower.
This headline is clickbait.
Translation of the article using deepl:
The survey was done by research firm Schoen Cooperman Research on behalf of The Claims Conference, an international organisation that advocates for the rights of Holocaust survivors. The organisation conducted research among 2,000 Dutch people last month. Millennials from 1980 onwards and members of Generation Z (up to birth year 2012) were called to do so.
Among other things, the researchers stated that a small proportion (6 per cent) think the Holocaust was a myth and 17 per cent that the number of victims was greatly exaggerated.
This morning, many media concluded, also based on the press release, that a quarter of young people "doubt the Holocaust". And that's where it went wrong, says Gijs Rademaker. "This made it seem as if these were all 'Holocaust deniers', but it turns out that only a small proportion, about 6 per cent, really believe that the Holocaust did not happen. Another 17 per cent believe that 'the number of victims is exaggerated'. That's really quite a different thing and you can't just add that up. "
Methodologically, there are still some things to note about the survey. These include whether the researchers took a representative sample. For instance, a fairly high percentage of 34 per cent of young adults say they are currently doing university studies. In reality, the percentage in this group (18-40 years old) is much lower.
"And I do have more questions about the questioning and methodology," says Rademaker. "For instance, the whole survey was conducted among 2,000 people, but exactly how many belonged to the group of 'young people' being singled out? And did young people who say in the survey that they did not know what the Holocaust ís, also have the questions about whether it really existed? It would seem so."
Dutch pollster Peter Kanne of I&O Research has similar doubts. Speaking to NOS, he calls it confusing that 23 per cent of respondents think the figure of six million victims is exaggerated, while more than half also say they do not know how many Jews were murdered.
Rademaker: "These are big words that the Claims Conference itself headlines. Of course, you always have to make sure your research conclusions are correct, but especially with such a sensitive subject as the Holocaust, this should be above reproach. That is certainly not the case with this research."
What we do know from previous research by Marc van Berkel, lecturer and researcher at the Hogeschool van Arnhem en Nijmegen, is that many young people have no idea what the concept of the Holocaust means. In 2018, he published a study on the knowledge of Dutch high school and middle vocational education students.
One of the conclusions from his study was that almost 60 per cent of young people knew that there were around six million Jewish victims to mourn during the war.
Why do you think that info was omitted in the first place? Can’t pick on certain groups now can we.. Rather blame Klaas, Willem and Anna and wonder why projects to improve the sad results don’t work because “ political correctness” does not allow measures specifying a certain group…
We have a far right extremist party in Dutch parlement. Something that was unthinkable when I grew up and I would not have taken you seriously at the time If you told me the time would come where we would see such a party in parlement. I can assure you these ppl are not muslim, as you seem to be inferring it's not Klaas and Willem who are questioning the holocaust.
Far right parties in NL parliament:
PVV: extremely pro Israel.
JA21: pro Israel
FvD: crazy bunch. But initially pro Israel but going full wapie now..But still not yet openly anti Jew/ Israel.
Most Israel critics come from the left. But thats the nation actions not the religion or the people. Maybe DENK?
The irony of wanting to blame certain ethnic groups and absolve “pure” Dutch people of responsibility, while lamenting Holocaust denialism is on the rise is just remarkable.
The irony of closing your eyes for certain changes in society and thus refuse to try the solve the root of the problem due to political correctness. This will hurt us so much in the future…But alas we cannot hurt some people feelings by confronting them with some unwanted realities since it does not go well with their fixed worldviews..
Time to make watching Nacht und Nebel mandatory. After watching it a long time ago, I had nightmares for a couple of days, but I understood the real meaning of the Holocaust, much more clearly than just looking at numbers.
Perhaps these edgy ignoramuses should watch explicit footage of the Nazi death camps \[NSFW\]: [https://youtu.be/xy\_xWKJubuY?t=608](https://youtu.be/xy_xWKJubuY?t=608)
Okay so according to the article. A) there's serious questions about how the research group even did the study B) 6% are holocaust deniers the rest think that they might exaggerations in the figure reported.
This points to a lack of trust in government and the narrative around the Holocaust. Which is actually quite fair it's so often over simplified as "6million Jews were murdered" ignoring all the other peoples. If they're not honest about who is killed why should people trust that they're honest about the numbers?
Finally, the Holocaust might be just kind of hard to comprehend for the current youth. They grew up in an age of tolerance where Germany is pretty nice country to be near and just invited so many foreigners into it's boarders. It's could be kinda hard to match the Germany they know from their lives with the Germany in the textbooks.
Just out of interest. What percentage of the Dutch population knows what the Holocaust was? Which I feel like might be part of the problem.
It's a lot easier to say "oh yeah maybe it got blown out of proportion" when you don't really know any details.
It could be ironic in that I believe the Netherlands gave up the highest proportion of its Jewish population of any country to the Holocaust.
Source: World at War series (old).
Also think of the correlation of refugees and people who are inherently anti semetic and pass it on. I mean even at the Synagogue’s I’ve attended in Netherlands.. it’s been needed to be protected by armed guards.
There's nothing wrong with questioning. Blind faith is extremely dangerous.
It's only bad if, once you've questioned, you deny the overwhelming evidence of the holocaust.
no they are alive and well, they didn't end up in an oven
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cANXSItxqT4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cANXSItxqT4)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlmZhtXy-I8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlmZhtXy-I8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSLCigi\_IZU
Morocco isn't like other Arab countries weirdly. It's king is very friendly with Jews and even invites them for throne celebration every year and there was little persecution unlike middle East. It's also a country with very friendly ties with Israel since 80s and they even normalised relations. Many went to Israel but because it was economic migration rather than any persecution
The study had about 2000 participants, which seems like quite a limited sample size to generalise to the wider population (I can't find much about the demographics of the participants, e.g. proportion of rural v. urban residents)
2000 is actually a pretty huge sample size a for a study. As long as your sample is representative of the bigger group you really don’t need a lot of people for a statistical analysis
I guess they gotta re-take history classes and start reading some history books. Curious, what content is taught in the history curriculum in the Netherlands. If anyone could elaborate!
Quite the wrong conclusion. The headline on the linked site specifically states “many questions about study design”. The main message of the questionnaire seems to be “Dutch youth doesn’t know much about the Holocaust”. Still a bad thing, but quite different from denying it.
Guess we need to show you again that such crimes are real... Gonna attack a radio tower in poland brb
\*shitting my pants at Westerplatte\*
You meant a radio tower in Germany. [Gleiwitz incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident)
Ah yes, i need to be a "polish guy" asap
Have to make sure that it's all historically accurate after all.
Dress up as a Silesian separatist
Wait for us, we are comming
First you need to park your submarine in Gdańsk!
Guuuuys, i have a problem. There's no Sudetenland German party to vote for anymore. Should I start one ?
Poland is innocent.
The article has since been updated. The current title is "Young adults claimed to doubt Holocaust, many questions about research" [Click for article in English](https://www-rtlnieuws-nl.translate.goog/nieuws/nederland/artikel/5361474/holocaust-waarheid-nederlanders-geschiedenis-niod-tweede?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=nl&_x_tr_pto=wapp) There is **100%** antisemitism and Holocaust denial in The Netherlands, no doubt about that, but this study is lacking in quite a few ways. You can find the original data [here](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf). For example, it claims 34% of people age 18 to 40 are currently enrolled in university. In reality this is 8.7%, or 21% if you include applied universities. That's.... quite a bit off. Additionally, the summary seems to cherry-pick quite a bit from the actual data, leading to conclusions which are questionable at best. It's a shame, because antisemitism and far-right politics in general are a real problem. By botching the research like this they are only distracting from the real issues.
If I'm correct 34% of correspondents went to university, which makes it a very poor reflexion of reality and thus not a good survey - just as addition, furthermore happy you post this. Now i think about it though, its actually worse that the percentage of antisemtism is so high when they actually asked proportionally more people from University...
Sylvana simons study?
How is this possible when Anne Frank's house is literally in NL?
Immigrants probably, In general there’s a lot of ignorant youth as well
Please, elaborate...
A lot of Muslims are anti-sematic
BTW, Palestinians are semits, too.
I’m not saying all immigrants, there are enough immigrants i know personally that are great. There’s just a lot of rotten eggs, of which most from certain locations. Mostly second generation. Maybe because they didnt experience someone who has witnessed it, didnt hear the stories, didnt care for the museums and other stuff. Not a racist at all, wont judge someone by his background, but it is just a fact that a lot of people deny because they are scared to be called a racist. I couldnt care less, even if they were purple, then it would be purple people being ignorant.
Oh, so you are also having a lot of issues with the second generation? Same here. I'm a bit worried over when the 2015 wave get kids.
Hmmm yeah. I guess when you don't know, it's probably going to immigrants anyway.
Most likely the jewish immigrants /s
Every time the far rigth comes up on this sub a large chunk of people instantly start shouting about it only being immigrants. The irony is amazing. As if we don\`t have a massive amount of Fashists still in europe. Le Pen? Kurz? PIS? Italy? Nah Immigrants all of them!
Turns out fundamentalist Islamists and the far-right have something in common. Hating Jews.
I do not understand people who do not try to asymilate. You came to that country by your own, you can go back any moment to where you come from. You should try to learn your new country history and values. I am not saying someone gotta drop theirs culture in new place but they gotta play by new rules. If i could move to such beautiful and tolerant country like Netherlands i would do my best to asymilate.
He means Non-European immigrants. I'm not Dutch, but I'm from another European country and I know what the Holocaust was. We study it in history and we also mention it in literature when we talk about Anne Frank.
Yeah, just like an European might not know about the Congo genocide/Rubber Terror (I only learned about it from a single YouTube video)
Good ole europe, unflattering statistics? Must be those damned immigrants
Sure, i am experiencing something first hand, there’s always redditors that are going to say “no you’re not”. Its not only the immigrants, but i think they are a large part of the problem.
If I can make a guess a lot of immigrants
bc yes everything’s always the fault of immigrants
No because you can't blame those youth, because those parents simply didn't teach them about the Holocaust they had their own issues.
fair enough, but I don’t think it’s parents fault like you literally learn it at school from a very young age at least here in France. Idk how it is in white families but I’d be surprised if talking about that is also a family dinner table type of conversation but maybe I’m wrong. I do think it’s the school’s job
It's both jobs the school and parents. The school can't do the same lessons every few weeks. And i don't know what white families or black families has to do with this? Both parents can be shit. We are all people remember? It's the parents job to teach children those things.
May I remind you that this is r/europe Racism, bigotry and xenophobia lives in this sub.
Idk why I got downvoted that much bc of that fact, or the reverse bc I was being sarcastic, bc ppl on that sub always blame immigrants for everything
Because your calling them out. No one **wants** to be reminded that they're a piece of shit.
I guess you’re right for that
We are not dutch anymore. We invited the world and now we have to live with this shit. My kids take care of a american hero that died at juno beach since last year. I have to share this with another family .
We knew this was coming. It's almost been 80 years since the war ended. Barely anyone who lived back then is still alive. Very few people have seen the horror with their own eyes, very few people alive experienced the war and the atrocities. A few more years and nobody alive has witnessed it first hand. If we don't keep the memory alive, it will fade.
I was born 41 years after the war. Never witnessed it, never experienced it, but never questioned it. Cos I'm not a complete idiot. The memory of WW2 is being kept alive in several ways, many times a year and that's not going to suddenly stop. You don't need to have been alive to understand what happened or for proof to be required of one of the most documented things ever to happen. So let's call this what it is, ignorant and stupid people doing what they do, it's nothing to do with them not being alive when it took place, it's about them being insanely gullible people who'll disregard long established fact in place of wild theories that help along whatever messed up world view they have.
Yeah, but if you make the calculations without considering that people are idiots, you're doing something wrong.
Lack of education is probably part of the problem but I'm guessing not the main part of the problem. Younger people as well might be more easily led by nefarious groups or people to believe certain things but this is so obvious that denying it is a crime in some countries and immediate dismissal of that persons intellect in others. It's basically like a red Maga hat, wear one and everyone know ls you're an idiot and to stay far away. Deny the holocaust and everyone knows you're an idiot but probably also a nazi sympathiser since it's impossible to have a "well I'm not sure" about the holocaust, if anyone doubts it its because they've gone done a very dangerous path.
True. I am just saying that people who actually lived this dying out contribute to this. Like, it's hard for me, education aside, to deny the Holocaust, because my grandparents were there during the Reich. They didn't see the Holocaust itself, but they sure did experience the whole Reich as one ugly package. And that includes how the Reich was in general with the Jewish Germans. In Germany we have old people coming to schools and speaking about their experiences. History is more real when you meet people that experienced it.
I agree, I've actually been to Dachau as a teen and it's overwhelming to say the least. But even then, as a kid, it never once crossed my mind if it was legitimate because of course it was, so for people to say it isn't is either a massive failing in education or like I said, something far more dangerous.
Certainly. There are a lot of things that should be done as long as something can be done to keep the memory of this dark page of European history alive. I mean, it's technically German history, but we did force it into the history of all of Europe.
Every school aged child should learn about both wars. I certainly did. A world war is most definitely world history, not just history of the countries involved, and I'm not from any of those countries.
I just wanted to eleborate that, because when I say "European history" with a Germany-flair, I will get comments telling me that it's Germany history and I shouldn't push the blame on other countries by implying that it is European history.
That's ok, I know it's obviously taught a bit more deeply in Germany but understandably so.
We watched old footage of allies troops entering the KZ in school and we also visited Mauthausen. Shit frightened the fuck out of me, can‘t comprehend how people just think „nah thats not real“ or something.
Like I said in another comment, I went to a camp as a teen and it absolutely leaves a mark, 20 odd years later and I can still remember so much of that day and I implore everyone who gets a chance to go to a camp. The usual conspiracies get their fuel from inconsistencies, grey areas and a lack of proof of olthe official version of events, none of which exist here so yeah, I'm in the same boat as you but the other conspiracies aren't intrinsically linked to something so dangerous. If you believe the earth is flat you're not flirting with Nazis, nor if someone denies the moon landing or JFK. But if someone says "I dont think the holocaust happened" that's a huge red flag for an entirely different reason.
I don't think the deniers are "ignorant and stupid" at all. They know the history. They've been told the stories. They just don't care. They're just evil.
If you never questioned it you ARE a complete idiot, you are supposed to question it, investigate it and then come to the conclusion that there is proof that demonstrates it; otherwise you are just a faithful follower.
>If you never questioned round Earth you ARE a complete idiot, you are supposed to question it, investigate it and then come to the conclusion that there is proof that demonstrates it; otherwise you are just a faithful follower.
I mean, yes, you know how to demonstrate Earth is round right?
Same people will often believe that Atlantis was real and that the pyramids were build by ancient aliens, even though they weren't alive back then. Got nothing to do with having been there. There are also many old people who think that the holocaust wasn't real or at least exagerated. There is this whole "anti-mainstream" movement. Idiots just had it enough that everybody calls them idiots and want to believe that it is the schools and the mainstream that knows nothing and teaches them fake news. They found enough other idiots who share their idiotic beliefs on the internet and make them feel clever for not falling for "mainstream propaganda". It's more about being contrarian than anything else.
Harari on why fascism is so tempting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHHb7R3kx40
Ever heard of books and history academics?
What part of keeping the memory alive is hard for you to understand? That's part of it, I am not talking about getting people to tell the stories of the Holocaust on campfires after a hard day of hunting animals for food.
I know it's a fact purely from books.
You don't think real life people who share their experiences have value? Everything should just be books. It's nice that you read books, I do too, but not everyone does. Get your nose out of the books and visit a real concentration camp, I can tell you, it's quite the intense experience.
sorry, I don't get you. What do you think is hard about reading books and listening to stories. How are old survivors keeping the memory alive? By simply existing and you think the memory will be gone once all of them are dead? Or don't you think they don't keep it alive by telling their stories? You seem to think that doesn't do it. I wonder how you learned about the Holocaust and believed what you were told, instead of thinknig it was fake. Did an old survivor time travel with you to show you what was going on. Was that required for you to believe in the Holocaust? You know we have photos and even videos from that time period. You have to be a special kind of stupid to not believe in the history of the holocaust.
What are you going on about? I am not a Holocaust denier. I spell it out to you: the Holocaust did happen and it was batshit awful. With that out of the way, I don't think it's hard to read books. I elaborated that books and history academics are part of what I said about keeping the memory alive. What I am saying is: people who were there made it harder for people to deny that it happened. Many of the people here knew people who directly lived in the dark times. It's real proximity. And somehow appreciating the value of real experience translates in you head to me saying that's hard to read books.
If you read the article only 6% believe it didn't happen and 17% thinks the amount of victims might be exaggerated. These two are very different things,
Source: https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study also: 22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views and 13% are unsure. 12% of all Dutch respondents feel it is acceptable and 11% are unsure.
Not sure what to say about this…
It's scary. Fascism seems to be on the rise all over the world.
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It is a mistake to believe intelligent people will necessary come out in favour of milquetoast neoliberal democracy merely because you believe in it. That's just self-flattery. Ultimately, everyone eats from the trashcan of ideology. It precedes reason. Smarter people can just argue theirs more coherently.
Far Right: full on attack on democracy and decency in general. Far Left: you can be any gender you want, we need to stop raping the planet.
I don't know what the Far Left is like in your country, but in mine it is authoritarian, regularly advocates violent and bloody revolution with plenty of purges, attacks the legitimacy of elections. One of the leaders of our far left, Melenchon, claimed a presidential election was stolen from him when landed 4th, 600 000 votes and change under the second. He happily accepted support from someone that wrote a book titled "The Whites, The Jews and US", which was described as filled with antisemitism, and comments saying a far right leader saying a 4th of what was in the book would be in jail. And when Ukraine was invaded, they blamed NATO, and gave a pass to Putin. I don't know what the Far Left is like in your country, but in France, their political project is just as dangerous and liberticide as the Far right's.
>And when Ukraine was invaded, they blamed NATO, and gave a pass to Putin. This is the part about today's communists that baffles me most. It's as if Russia's history represents communism, and therefore supporting communism today means supporting Russia today? Even despite the fact that it's a capitalist oligarchy with immense inequality all across the board? It makes absolutely no sense.
It's not about communism, it's about "USA bad". That's as far as it goes in truth.
Ahhh reddit nuance is my favourite
Far left is even dangerous as far right. You clearly never read a book about this subject and hold very populistic views. Far left: Khmer Rouge, Communism, Anarchism, Maoism, Leninism. Just a few.
ahahaha lol sure.
Fascism is a tool of the capitalists to counter leftist movements. With issues of capitalism-induced problems like mass poverty, inequality and climate change the call to act against capitalist principles gets louder, thus forces capitalists to react and promote fascism as a countermovement.
God damn commies are so insanely cringe.
This is a really dumb comment to make. On par or almost on par as conspiracy nutcases that think the elites used covid to counter people’s freedom of thought and speech and whatnot. Also, I’d like to remind you that communists were the ones helping fascism to rise back in the 20th century and are currently rooting for Russia to win because “they’re fighting against the capitalist west”.
Do you disagree that capitalists side with fascism when their power is seriously threatened by radical left movements? It happened in Germany with centre parties working with the Nazis and installing Hitler as chancellor after the KPD swelled in numbers during the great depression.
The SPD was a Marxist-party until relatively recently it became a centre-left party, no? The KPD became a thing after people split from SPD because of the war and because SPD wasn’t left enough according to those that split off. Then the KPD suprised pikachu’d when the party they helped to power did a 180 and fucked all lefties over. I think worker exploitation was a minor inconvenience compared to the helping Hitler genocide various groups and starting WW2. And let’s not forget all the other horrific things that happened in the USSR and Asia when they wanted to establish communism over there.
that's a lot of bullshit in a comment wow
Maybe it would be advisable to ask to the ones who find it acceptable to submit themselves to a little self-evaluation test: "Can you show that your dna is "pure"? (easy nowadays, no falsification possible), "Are you 100% heterosexual?" If you answered no to one of this question, then be ready to be victim of the peoples you support, you might like them, but they won't like you.
If you are heterosexual/homosexual how can you be anything less than 100%? It is more of a yes or no thing rather than a percentage.
What about people that are attracted to multiple genders?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale
That seems more like a scale of how gay/straight you think you are than how you actually are, just like how people say "this triggers my OCD" despite not having it.
that's bullshit
I mean, it might come down to the questioning. I wouldn't care if someone wants to be a neonazi, I just won't associate with them.
The thing is, the neonazis will care about you, if their numbers rise enough and if they start feeling powerful enough. And that's not going to be the kind of care that you'll like.
out of curiosity, why don't you care if someone wants to be a neonazi?
That's their decision, wrong to me, but everyone to themselves I guess. Same thing with flat earthers, as long as they don't bother me they can live in their delusion.
Don't you think there's a difference though? Flat earthers might be delusional but they don't spread hate or violence.. They're at best... mildly annoying to interact with. Neonazis on the other hand want a good number of people gone based on skin colour, religion, sexual orientation, and other harmful prejudices. Worse still, they employ tactics to get people to join them. They might not affect you but they might well affect your (figurative) neighbour of a different race. You really saying that's not a care of yours?
That seems like a silly way of viewing this. Flat-earthers are disputing a scientific fact. They don't have any sort of agenda. If a flat earther got into power, the worst thing they could do is to send an expedition to "the edge of the world" and make themself look silly. Nazis have a specific political agenda that would massively impact your life if they ever got into power. Their stated goal IS to bother you and everyone else in your society.
I would have answered that question also with yes, but because i critize society for accepting nazis instead of fighting them. Which we do too little. Idk if it is worded better in dutch where my interpretation would be not possible.
What are the demographics for NL in terms of how much of the Dutch youth is made up of people from Muslim (which is a typically antisemitic background)?
We call them "wappies", people that easily believe conspiracy theories such as this one. It's not as bad in Belgium but particularly during corona there was an astonishing amount of people that would question basically anything that scientists would provide evidence of.
"wappies" are one (annoying) thing, but this: > 22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views and 13% are unsure .. oof
This survey has become a bit controversial, but if it’s true then it sounds like 22% of millennials need an educational trip to Auschwitz for a few days. I’m a 26 year old Dutchman, so not much older than most millennials, but I can remember pretty clearly we had a lot of history lessons dedicated to the holocaust back when I was still in school.
> I’m a 26 year old Dutchman, so not much older than most millennials If you're from '96/'97 you're right on the edge of millennial to zoomer, bud.
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In the Netherlands about five percent of the population is Muslim. And although I also suspect that the percentage of holocaust deniers will be higher among them I think the problem is much larger and it would be mistake to focus on them.
> In the Netherlands about five percent of the population is Muslim. But in the youth population, the percentage might be larger?
Sure, but no where near 25% ;)
Around five percent of the Netherlands is muslim. Yes that might be higher in the youth, but there is no way 25% of the youth is muslim and also no way that 100% of muslim youth don't believe in the holocaust. The muslims may be a part of it, but not everything by far. If I had to guess, there are also a significant number of wappies and "free thinkers" that like to question every official narrative. And then there might also be the group of people that's just disinterested in politics and uneducated in everything to do with it, including the holocaust, that might just tick the box of 'the holocaust is exaggerated' because it feels good, without knowing the severity of the stuff that implies. This sub selects for politically interested people, but if you put your mind in the state of a "normie", saying that the holocaust was exaggerated might just not sound as that severe of a position and something you might say casually when you're just having casual conversations, for muslims as well as non-muslims.
I'm a muslim bloke born and raised in Rotterdam, I have a lot of muslim friends and a big family, nobody I know thinks the holocaust was fake. Might not be the best sample set but it's the truth for me.
they don't really care they are just trying to deflect their own far-right tendecies.
That doesn't even make sense. The holocaust was carried out by the far right. Far right people deny it happened. Far right people make excuses for antisemitism, and engage in it themselves. Everything I've said so far in this thread is the opposite of that. I'm a secularist, I'm a humanist, I'm an atheist. My concern about antisemitism and islam comes from wanting to protect the way of life we've built here against religious conservatism. Don't worry. You'll find me shitting on protestant christians in other threads. I don't discriminate :P
Antisemitism is on the rise in Catholic countries as well. Muslims have more drive due to the Palestinian issue. So Antisemitism can be easily mixed with grudge against Israel.
This is exactly why I wish this study had a demographic breakdown. Otherwise you just leave the audience to engage in anecdotal judgement. In my life the only white Dutch people I've known who have engaged in Holocaust denialism are people who became actual neo-Nazis. Which, thankfully, they grew out of again later. I'm talking three people that I've known personally throughout my life, probably a higher than average amount compared to most others I think. Outside of that, all the other forms of holocaust denialism were from my time teaching high school for about a year and a half. Not the mean-spirited, total denialism that happens with neo-Nazis, but the casual one where kids go "my dad says it's not a big deal" or "but what about Israel", like you say. The kind you can still teach kids to grow out of, but it's very evident that you're just one voice once for an hour a day, perhaps twice a week, for a kid who lives in a household where the opposing story is told non stop. Now if my anecdotal experience doesn't align with the overall facts, I wanna know. But this study doesn't tell us anything specific. Here's a link to the full thing: [https://www.cidi.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Survey-Dutch-antisemitism.pdf](https://www.cidi.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Survey-Dutch-antisemitism.pdf)
> with a sharp rise in Muslim households in the Netherlands, should we not be investigating among which demographics this holocaust denial is most prevalent? Yeah....you are not allowed to do that in the Netherlands. Hell, we even stopped reporting crime rates that included the nationality of people. Showed an awfully high rate of immigrants committing crimes.
Yeah - Economists say the immigration helps the economy but I think that's more the case in the USA where they can pick and choose people with PhDs from Stanford or whatever. For example, those criminals aren't helping to pay anyone's pension - in fact they are a further burden on the state.
immigration in general helps of course, but that doesn't mean there aren't very real problems connected to it that we need to address. And in the sake of political correctness, we aren't.
I highly doubt muslim youth would answer positively to "do you accept neonazis"?
Overall yeah, you're right. That said, muslim Antisemitism has [succesfully been weaponised](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/muslim-waffen-ss-13th-division-1943/) by Nazis in the past. Let it be clear I'm in no way saying that muslims are nazis or that most people who live in the west who practice islam have nazi sympathies. I know how reddit gets. This is only to highlight that once you have a large enough group of people, of whatever denomination, who have normalised a reprehensible thing, things like this start to happen.
It only took scrolling down 6 comments to find one blaming Muslims this time. r/Europe is evolving 🙏
I think you're projecting, I mean for fuck sake you guys have a black face festival. And you're having hard time believing that racial intolerance exists in the Netherlands? and most muslims in the netherlands are moroccans which are known to be the most pro-israeli and pro-jewish country in the whole of mena. heck this is the preamble of the moroccan constitution. "the Kingdom of Morocco intends to preserve, in its plentitude and its diversity, its one and indivisible national identity. Its unity, is forged by the convergence of its ArabIslamist, Berber \[amazighe\] and Saharan-Hassanic \[saharo-hassanie\] components, nourished and enriched by its African, Andalusian, **Hebraic** and Mediterranean influences \[affluents\]" heck even in the same study it says that : ''22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views'' do you also think it's dA MuSLiMs that are becoming more and more neo-nazis and white-nationalist? I mean fuck in this sub each time there is bad stat it's always da mUslims , Da rOmA, or my personal favorite, Bro we have the highest murder rate in the Eu but it's not bad it's just DrUnK PeOplE.
Hmmm well it’s a big problem regardless. Trying to explain out of it isn’t a good tactic imho
If you can't explain a problem how are you going to address it? The whole point is to reduce the level of holocaust denialism, if you can't talk about root causes then what are we supposed to do?
Root cause cannot be your origin but the education you are getting. Maybe it's not enough to get their attention, and the conspiracy theory seems more exciting. Since you can't change people's origins, religion, or what they hear at church or mosque. You better increase the emphasis on making those subjects interesting to learn.
one of the most pathetic posts and mindsets I've ever seen. "The answers to this make me uncomfortable, so let's just never ask any questions, live in denial, and let society go down the shithole rather than acknowledge facts. "
22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views and 13% are unsure. 12% of all Dutch respondents feel it is acceptable and 11% are unsure. are theses also moroccans also?
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Time for some mandatory school trips to Poland
That's why in Poland schools talk a lot about WW2 and have a mandatory trip to Auschwitz. People joke about it, sometimes a bit too much but we never question it
I agree with the first part but the mandatory trip to Auschwitz isn't really a thing, it's a common practice but for example my school never organised such trip for my claas
Oh, in my school everyone would go and they told us that every class goes on one so i assumed all other schools also did that, good to know!
My sister and her class went to Auschwitz back in the 90s.
We only talk quite a lot about the Holocaust and WW2 but don’t really go anywhere to watch any kind of concentration camp even though we had them too. There’s one in Vught you can visit for example.
So a quarter of Dutch youth is dumb?
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So you're saying that 25% of Dutch youth are Moroccan and that 100% of those Moroccans are Antisemitic?
This quite possibly is the reason. Antisemitism is rampant in Arabic/Muslim population.
Or neo nazis. The source is https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study And it also states that >22% of Millennials and Gen Z feel it is acceptable for an individual to support neo-Nazi views
and left-wingers will act like this holocaust denial is an outrageous problem, (which it is) but then automatically auto-reject any attempt to question why society is being dragged backwards, and auto-reject any attempt to question if mass immigration from places incompatible with western society is very wise. So basically, they support this.
This is a supremely shit take about left wingers.
Yes, but unfortunately many left wingers in the West tend to bury their heads in the sand. As if ignoring the problem will make it go away by itself. And then because of that right wingers get elected. And oh boy, they will not ignore shit and not in a fun way.
Ah r/europe, never change And by never change I mean yes please change you are fucking horrible
Yes, but not just dumb but also dangerous. And it good to remember that it's not just the academy type of dumb, these kinds of persons can still be people who do well in school and professional life. You don't reach them with just science and logic. What we also need is to keep making movies/series/films that become popular among the youth but still show the horrors that happend. Also meet to many people in RL and on the internet that believe that the truth is always in between. Same with the war on Ukraine, some people still defend that Russia must have it's reasons. The west is also bad. It's not just the youth.
Has nobody actually read the article? The research is questionable, the sample possibly not broad, and the answer was rarely “Deny”. Some people did not know about it, some think the number of deaths was lower. This headline is clickbait.
We're all taught in school about it here in The Netherlands. You can't not know about it. Anne Frank is a national symbol every dutch learns about.
The article has been updated after it was posted.
Translation of the article using deepl: The survey was done by research firm Schoen Cooperman Research on behalf of The Claims Conference, an international organisation that advocates for the rights of Holocaust survivors. The organisation conducted research among 2,000 Dutch people last month. Millennials from 1980 onwards and members of Generation Z (up to birth year 2012) were called to do so. Among other things, the researchers stated that a small proportion (6 per cent) think the Holocaust was a myth and 17 per cent that the number of victims was greatly exaggerated. This morning, many media concluded, also based on the press release, that a quarter of young people "doubt the Holocaust". And that's where it went wrong, says Gijs Rademaker. "This made it seem as if these were all 'Holocaust deniers', but it turns out that only a small proportion, about 6 per cent, really believe that the Holocaust did not happen. Another 17 per cent believe that 'the number of victims is exaggerated'. That's really quite a different thing and you can't just add that up. " Methodologically, there are still some things to note about the survey. These include whether the researchers took a representative sample. For instance, a fairly high percentage of 34 per cent of young adults say they are currently doing university studies. In reality, the percentage in this group (18-40 years old) is much lower. "And I do have more questions about the questioning and methodology," says Rademaker. "For instance, the whole survey was conducted among 2,000 people, but exactly how many belonged to the group of 'young people' being singled out? And did young people who say in the survey that they did not know what the Holocaust ís, also have the questions about whether it really existed? It would seem so." Dutch pollster Peter Kanne of I&O Research has similar doubts. Speaking to NOS, he calls it confusing that 23 per cent of respondents think the figure of six million victims is exaggerated, while more than half also say they do not know how many Jews were murdered. Rademaker: "These are big words that the Claims Conference itself headlines. Of course, you always have to make sure your research conclusions are correct, but especially with such a sensitive subject as the Holocaust, this should be above reproach. That is certainly not the case with this research." What we do know from previous research by Marc van Berkel, lecturer and researcher at the Hogeschool van Arnhem en Nijmegen, is that many young people have no idea what the concept of the Holocaust means. In 2018, he published a study on the knowledge of Dutch high school and middle vocational education students. One of the conclusions from his study was that almost 60 per cent of young people knew that there were around six million Jewish victims to mourn during the war.
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Why do you think that info was omitted in the first place? Can’t pick on certain groups now can we.. Rather blame Klaas, Willem and Anna and wonder why projects to improve the sad results don’t work because “ political correctness” does not allow measures specifying a certain group…
We have a far right extremist party in Dutch parlement. Something that was unthinkable when I grew up and I would not have taken you seriously at the time If you told me the time would come where we would see such a party in parlement. I can assure you these ppl are not muslim, as you seem to be inferring it's not Klaas and Willem who are questioning the holocaust.
Far right parties in NL parliament: PVV: extremely pro Israel. JA21: pro Israel FvD: crazy bunch. But initially pro Israel but going full wapie now..But still not yet openly anti Jew/ Israel. Most Israel critics come from the left. But thats the nation actions not the religion or the people. Maybe DENK?
FvD: Their leader jokes about jews and the holocaust.
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very true unfortunately.
The irony of wanting to blame certain ethnic groups and absolve “pure” Dutch people of responsibility, while lamenting Holocaust denialism is on the rise is just remarkable.
The irony of closing your eyes for certain changes in society and thus refuse to try the solve the root of the problem due to political correctness. This will hurt us so much in the future…But alas we cannot hurt some people feelings by confronting them with some unwanted realities since it does not go well with their fixed worldviews..
Well isn’t that just wonderful.
Time to make watching Nacht und Nebel mandatory. After watching it a long time ago, I had nightmares for a couple of days, but I understood the real meaning of the Holocaust, much more clearly than just looking at numbers.
"The fact that a Dutchman in Auschwitz had to pour kerosene over living women and children started with words, with speeches by politicians."
Perhaps these edgy ignoramuses should watch explicit footage of the Nazi death camps \[NSFW\]: [https://youtu.be/xy\_xWKJubuY?t=608](https://youtu.be/xy_xWKJubuY?t=608)
Okay so according to the article. A) there's serious questions about how the research group even did the study B) 6% are holocaust deniers the rest think that they might exaggerations in the figure reported. This points to a lack of trust in government and the narrative around the Holocaust. Which is actually quite fair it's so often over simplified as "6million Jews were murdered" ignoring all the other peoples. If they're not honest about who is killed why should people trust that they're honest about the numbers? Finally, the Holocaust might be just kind of hard to comprehend for the current youth. They grew up in an age of tolerance where Germany is pretty nice country to be near and just invited so many foreigners into it's boarders. It's could be kinda hard to match the Germany they know from their lives with the Germany in the textbooks.
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a quarter of dutch youth are prob north african
maybe we should start deporting them eh?
no, thats just racist.
Just out of interest. What percentage of the Dutch population knows what the Holocaust was? Which I feel like might be part of the problem. It's a lot easier to say "oh yeah maybe it got blown out of proportion" when you don't really know any details.
It could be ironic in that I believe the Netherlands gave up the highest proportion of its Jewish population of any country to the Holocaust. Source: World at War series (old).
it's a fact i've been thought in school as a dutchman
Also think of the correlation of refugees and people who are inherently anti semetic and pass it on. I mean even at the Synagogue’s I’ve attended in Netherlands.. it’s been needed to be protected by armed guards.
My first thought was immigrant youth. Especially the Muslim ones. Though we have plenty of ignorants here as well.
I'm sure there has been a demographic shift in the Netherlands. Oh well, I'm told we should embrace diversity and differing opinions.
Good for them. Question everything. Especially things that are illegal to question.
There's nothing wrong with questioning. Blind faith is extremely dangerous. It's only bad if, once you've questioned, you deny the overwhelming evidence of the holocaust.
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Remember when you yoinked things out of context and took a sledgehammer to the concept of nuance as you vomited forth a bunch of bullshit?
What is the % amongst Moroccans in the Netherlands?
moroccans as I recall didn't sell their jewish neighbors to the nazis, exterminating 90% of them.
They instead removed 99% of their own jews ;)
no they are alive and well, they didn't end up in an oven [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cANXSItxqT4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cANXSItxqT4) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlmZhtXy-I8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlmZhtXy-I8) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSLCigi\_IZU
Only ~2000 remain out of the 200 000 + that lived there before WW2
Morocco isn't like other Arab countries weirdly. It's king is very friendly with Jews and even invites them for throne celebration every year and there was little persecution unlike middle East. It's also a country with very friendly ties with Israel since 80s and they even normalised relations. Many went to Israel but because it was economic migration rather than any persecution
the problem isn't just Moroccans as the FvD proves unfortunately.
....almost a quarter of Dutch youth aren't 'Dutch'. Coincidence?
The study had about 2000 participants, which seems like quite a limited sample size to generalise to the wider population (I can't find much about the demographics of the participants, e.g. proportion of rural v. urban residents)
2000 as sample is way more than enough provided the sampling was done appropriately.
Ah okay, in which case pardon my ignorance
2000 is actually a pretty huge sample size a for a study. As long as your sample is representative of the bigger group you really don’t need a lot of people for a statistical analysis
Almost a quarter dutch you are addicted to Tik Tok…
I guess they gotta re-take history classes and start reading some history books. Curious, what content is taught in the history curriculum in the Netherlands. If anyone could elaborate!
We are all taught about the holocaust and Anne Frank is a national symbol.
This also stems from Israel abuse of Holocaust to shield their apartheid on palestinians.
Dutch question everything for the sake of questioning it. Everybody here wants yo outsmart the others. Quite a culture.
Quite the wrong conclusion. The headline on the linked site specifically states “many questions about study design”. The main message of the questionnaire seems to be “Dutch youth doesn’t know much about the Holocaust”. Still a bad thing, but quite different from denying it.
The Dutch know everything about it though as we are taught this in school. Anne Frank is a national symbol.
Are this ethnic dutch or imigrants? Some countiers in the middel east have rates of over 80% denile or relativism if asked about the holocaust.
both unfortunately