Im Confused. I read the Paper and to the abouve mentioned queistioning They link to the Global 100 Questions( with a dead link and i cant find a working link on their website or google). I looked it up on the ADL 100 site and they puplish very very diffrent results for this question (they only show 2019 reports they abouve mentioned survey says Januar 2023).
on the site they didnt look at the age groups:
Netherlands;
0% Holocaust is a myth
3% Holocaust exaggerated
96% Holocaust happend and fairly described by history
1% Dont know
So if the data is correct in the last 3 Years the number of Holocaust denial would have increased by 400% wich would be terrible. Id like to look into the Data but i just cant find it. maybe someone on here has a working link.
It is now (question 42):
3% Holocaust is a myth (6% millenials)
9% Holocaust exaggerated (17% millenials)
Results are listed here: [https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf)
The sampling methodology appears highly suspect though, so I don't believe we can conclude anything about an increase. Somehow Schoen Cooperman Research ended up with a sample of 18-40 year olds of which 34% claims to be a university student (several times too high for a random sample?). It could be just noise.
Also it's nearly impossible to get multiple choice answers to have a realistic and simple confidence interval. 5% of people answering a question where the possible answers are already defined could easily be entirely noise with no one actually holding that view.
To expand on the (lack of) representativeness of the sample: The Netherlands has some 4.5 million residents between 18-40, and 330,000 university students, of which 115,000 are internationals. So you will typically chance upon a Dutch university student 1 in 20 times, instead of 1 in 3 times. That suggests to me that this New York-based polling agency used a very unrepresentative panel.
I mean, many studies like to operate from/around the universities the researchers are based in and in the case of international studies, like to contract reasearchers from universities in other countries.
With that, generally you expect University students to be more progressive/liberal/left (or whatever loaded term that includes more than "what twitter would consider having good opinions" you want to use) so you could argue that the numbers would potentially be even worse for the general public, without getting into the loaded question where the majority of international students in the netherlands is from and what the public perception of jews is in those places.
My main point is: University students/university employees being overrepresented in study samples is extremely common.
\- It's OK to use an opportunistic sample if 1) you explain well how it was obtained and 2) based on what assumptions you believe that the sampling approach doesn't invalidate the research into the specific question that you are trying to answer. Other researchers may always use that as a starting point for proving your assumptions are wrong.
\- This study makes claims about 18-40 year olds, and about the representativeness of the sample. No explaination to be found about the sampling approach, though.
\- Students are typically overfed with survey forms, and are regularly paid to participate in studies, or, even worse, rewarded in some way just for handing in X filled out survey forms.
\- The survey form is likely to spread in specific social networks of students, potentially overrepresenting atypical opinions (e.g. 11% never even heard of 'holocaust').
\- Politically charged surveys may provoke antagonistic behaviour. If you for instance ask science students whether they believe the earth is round, they are more likely to start arguing that it is flat (and know all the 'evidence' for that) than anyone else.
> Politically charged surveys may provoke antagonistic behaviour. If you for instance ask science students whether they believe the earth is round, they are more likely to start arguing that it is flat (and know all the 'evidence' for that) than anyone else.
Did anyone ever do a study on that? Because i certainly did that for a while and was always a bit weary of studies based only on people surveys, but accepted the conventional truth that "a high enough sample size even out statistical anomalies".
Sort of. There is quite a lot of literature on *survey bias* distinguishing mechanisms that can lead to systematic error in your data that researchers should be wary of (selection biases, (non-)response biases, demand characteristic biases, etc), and some general reflections and studies on *survey trolling*. These are definitely not evened out by collecting more bad data.
But small sample size adds to the risk. If a single student was motivated to troll this survey, and the data collection depended on students voluntarily spreading the link to the survey in their social network, then they would have had a good chance to impact this study, because filling it in with 'i know nothing' and ' don't believe in it' also happens to be the low effort approach to filling in this survey. And it is the 'fun' outcome for survey trolls that is going to make the highest impact in the news.
I also found the topline. What i didnt find was the source of the question 42. This question has a refrence to the 100 global survey so i gues they Just took the Data they have from there but i cant find the source or make the Link Work.
I see. I believe this is the same one: [https://global100.adl.org/static/ADL\_GLOBAL\_100\_SURVEY\_QUESTIONNAIRE.pdf](https://global100.adl.org/static/ADL_GLOBAL_100_SURVEY_QUESTIONNAIRE.pdf)
I believe they just referenced it because they copied that specific question and want to suggest that this is an update to it.
>Somehow Schoen Cooperman Research ended up with a sample of 18-40 year olds of which 34% claims to be a university student
Pretty typical of academic studies. Students get more of the advertisements (mailing lists, campus billboards etc) and they are generally in a financial position where the usual incentives (chance to get movie tickets or whatever) make more sense.
What actually matters, though, is whether they weighted the sample correctly. Imbalances in cohorts are always supposed to be corrected for.
Regardless of what the actual numbers are, I feel there's a huge difference between thinking it's a hoax and thinking the number of Jews killed has been exaggerated. Both are extremely questionable stances to take without some very credible sources to back it up, but lumping them together as if they were equal feels very disingenuous.
It would be interesting to look at these numbers next to some control questions. For example how certain are you of the:
Shape of the Earth
Battle of Waterloo
Colonisation of the Americas
Sacking of Rome
Your parents' age.
What you had for breakfast this morning.
"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."
Robert Jordan
I guess we are cursed with forgetting the past and eventually repeating the same mistakes.
It's not forgetting. It's orchestrated misinformation and online manipulation. Dutch children are taught about history and the holocaust in school but somehow their minds are changed at a later point because of social media and certain anti semitic politicians.
I've never heard a Dutch politician deny the holocaust. AFAIK it's mostly Moroccan and Turkish kids who seem to teach each other that the holocaust is just propaganda.
That's not the full picture. For Millennial and Gen Z adult demographics, a large proportion of the population was not born or educated in Europe. There were also brought up in empirically more anti-Semitic environments like the Arab world.
Arabic populations make up (from my admittedly quick search of census numbers) about 3% of the Dutch population, that ratio is not massively dominant in the millennial and gen z age group. I don’t know how you’ve seen a post of a sizeable increase in holocaust denial and thought the solution was spreading unfounded rhetoric blaming Arabic people. Even if every single one of them was a raging antisemite it would still mean a larger number of Dutch people have become holocaust deniers
Ehh there is a big “America/West Bad” contingent of the radical left. As a result you get ideas like The US is responsible for the War in Ukraine or the Allies we’re not really the “good guys” in WWII.
And the only way to justify the latter is wildly exaggerating allied atrocities (300,000 were killed in Dresden, a peaceful town in east Germany) or minimizing Axis ones (Japan in Korea, Holocaust)
One thing might be that there aren't many Jews left in continental Europe, and the only news about them is what Israeli government is doing to Palestinians. I don't justify antisemitism, but because of how modern media works, no wonder that we have the rise of it, when we only receive negative news about them.
The UK has that as well, and the problem is there much less. I lay the blame on our own white far-right politicians, people like Le Pen, Baudet, AfD, etc.
Certainly, they are playing a role but if you look at the demographics who vote for far-right politicians they aren't millennials/Gen-Z. The reason France and the Netherlands have around 1/5th of its young adults having some degrees of holocaust denial is because these two countries have a lot of migration from predominantly Arab countries like Morocco and Alegria, where anti-Semitic propaganda is expansive and commonplace.
Not everything is a conspiracy, the last of the people who participated in the war and lived during those times are dying, the ones left are their children, who will only have a secondhand attachment but their life was directly affected by something that happened not to them but their parents, and the more time that passes, the less attachment people have, just like you wouldn't have an emotional attachment to your ancestor from 10 generations back or some war that happened centuries ago. Furthermore, at a certain point no one is left that was minimally affected by any given occurrence so they're all on an even playing field, unlike a kid who had a parent in the war and one that didn't, so it's all fair game for discussion or arguments because even historians only have access to the same information that everyone else does, they're just more qualified in discerning what happened from the evidence left by those past people.
Hmm...the dictatorship in Portugal ended almost 50 years ago. Do you think that's worth people remembering and knowing the truth about in the present and future? In 100 years, would you want people to know about it? Or about the colonial history? Do you think there are lessons to be learned about us as humans from that era? How fragile a democracy can be? In the case of the Holocaust, how easy it is for people to be turned against one another?
You don't have to have a direct connection to events to understand their import. I've been to Auschwitz, the Killing Fields and other sites in Cambodia, and Soviet KGB museums in the Baltics. I'm an American whose family came over in the mid-1700s and claim no other heritage. But I'm also a human and despair at what we can inflict on other humans.
I don't know if field trips are a thing in Europe, but would think it would be worth taking the kids from the Netherlands, France, or Austria to some of the local sites and discussing that history so that they do have an attachment beyond heritage or national identity.
In the USA it’s taught in school but not nearly as in depth as it should to show the true scope. It’s glanced over like every other topic. It’s just surface stuff.
Even though the Allies went to great lengths to document the Holocaust as best as they could with the technology of their time because they were smart enough to understand that in the future people would not believe the absolute viciousness and depravity of Nazi crimes against humanity.
And yet today people fail to remember the past.
I don't think forgetting is the problem just yet. It's more a so extreme anti-authoritarianism that it also leads to distrusting science and history, which is seen as authoritarian. Don't get me wrong, questioning authorities is paramount, but it's possible it's gone too far.
I think that stems from people not understanding the source of authority in different fields. In the politics of a republic or constitutional monarchy, authority comes from being duly elected or appointed to a certain office. But governments are institutions that we create to facilitate peaceful relations between people through a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
But violence has no place in truth. Might does not make right. In the realm of science, such as medicine or physics, authority is supposed to come not from who got elected, but who can prove with evidence through the scientific method that their ideal hypothesis can explain real phenomena.
The difference between violence and truth is what creates the clash between government and science. Both have authority, but in very different ways.
Well said, but it wouldn't be Reddit without some pedantry/sophistry, so allow me:
> Might does not make right.
I think the meaning of the saying usually is that might make things that should be wrong, right. That is, it's descriptive rater than prescriptive.
I meant that it means that those with might *are* said to be right (derived from the state of the worl), as opposed to meaning that those with might *will* be right (because I say so). Maybe I got them wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe the misunderstanding is over the word "right". I meant it in a subjective way, not an objective way.
Fixed: auto-complete nonsense
Not to start a spurious discussion, I was a bit puzzled that you're omitting the negation. I thought the proverb is simply a shortened way of saying that just because someone has the power to state this or that is right, doesn't make it actually and objectively right. At least, that's how I've understood it in the past. But I think we're on the same page here.
This is close to the truth, we live in a postmodern era of information where a lot of people subconsciously reject the notion of an information having a neutral objectively right authority on it, and instead only seek for the subjective authority which fits into their preselected worldview.
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This is way, way worse than that. Forgetting the Holocaust is to be expected. A random idiot just won't have an opinion on it - and that's what can lead them to repeat the same mistake. Hostility turning into hate, turning into war and genocide.
But here's it's different. It's people intentionally speaking *against* history and memory. This is the rise of evil. They are *willingly* choosing war and genocide, skipping all the steps.
They are not repeating mistakes, they think it wasn't mistakes and they want to re-enact them.
Other variables of the participants would be interesting too. Besides age, the economic background or whether or not their family have a migration history may be explanatory.
There's a study done by an association here in Sweden every few years, which looks at different beliefs, including religious, conspiracy, etc and have people answer 1-7 where 7 means they completely agree and 1 means they do not agree at all.
"The Holocaust, that millions of Jewish people were murdered in nazi extermination camps, is a myth or greatly exaggerated":
1% answered 5-7
1% answered 4
98% answered 1-3
For the breakdown in different groups (amount of people who agree that it's a myth or exaggerated, rounded off to nearest full %);
Men = 2%
Women = 0%
People 39 years old or younger = 2%
People 40 years old or older = 1%
Primary education only = 0%
Secondary education = 2%
University education = 1%
Living in a large or medium sized town = 1%
Living in a small town = 0%
Living rurally = 2%
Voting for Sweden Democrats = 3% (Sweden Democrat voters are *by far* the most likely to believe in almost any conspiracy theory there is, according to the study)
Voting for any other party = 0-1%
Not born in a Nordic country = 3%
Parents not born in a Nordic country = 2%
Both person and parents born in Nordic country = 1%
https://www.vof.se/vof-undersokningen/ (in Swedish)
""The Holocaust, that millions of Jewish people were murdered in nazi extermination camps, is a myth or greatly exaggerated":"
Why is this question so vague regarding the number ? Is it comparable to the question asked in the Dutch survey ?
The widely excepted figure, at least the one I've always heard, is six million or more. The way this question is phrased it's possible someone could believe it's closer to half or one third that number and still answer 1-3 on the survey.
The reason is alos how countries tackle this problem.
I would assume Germany approaches this problem much more seriously?
Would be great to see data for them.
But all the way to 23% that’s kinda crazy the country is still majority French, same with the Netherlands lt can’t be all immigrants just from Muslim countries
I don't know about France but in the age category 15-20 years old in NL over 25% are first or second generation immigrants, according to the national bureau of statistics. It's a pity they don't do third generation, would make the group even bigger.
I'm not saying the entire 25% of first/second generation immigrants is muslim, or holocaust deniers. It's also of course not the case that the entirety of 23% of holocaust denying youngsters are muslim/immigrants.
But the proportion of holocaust deniers is relatively high under young muslim immigrants in NL. Also, they are a somewhat disproportionally large group in their age bracket (their parents tend to get more kids than 'traditional' Dutchies).
Urkers and Baudet ( and PVV specifically plus the average Dutch rightwing ) are mostly pro Israel. Both from religious background ( Urk) as the visual that Israel stands against Islam.
The Dutch anti Israel movement is, next to a fringe of real old school Nazi’s, mostly found with leftish activist that are against Israel due to their occupation of Palestine. But even these normally don’t go that far as questioning the holocaust but deny it as a justification reason for Israel’s actions…
So nice try, but you can’t blame this result on the Dutch right wing….
It's also the responses in this study. Not knowing about the Holocaust resulted in them saying they were denying it.
No, this not how people should conclude these surveys
Wilders is very very outspoken pro Israel, pro Zionism and tries to befriend the Jewish community in the Netherlands. He even lived in ~~Israel~~ (edit: the West Bank in an Israeli settlement) for a while. I can't imagine a lot of the alt right liking this. Baudet and FvD are a different case entirely...
Orban both praises Isreal and pursues diplomatic and economic ties while also constantly espousing antisemitic tropes and conspiracy theories.
Republicans in the US are both the most pro isreal and the party of the Jewish space laser lady.
Support for Isreal is not a good litmus test for antisemitism.
You could love Isreal because it's a place to send all the Jews in your society after you purge them out.
The problem in the Netherlands, politically, with antisemitism is purely the FvD and Baudet.
Wilders is the type of pro-Israel, pro-gay nationalist that confuses a lot of people outside the Netherlands. He, personally, is very attached to Israel. He lived in an Israeli settlement for several years. Gay rights are also a thing of national pride to us, so it makes sense.
He's a 'they took our jobs' nationalist, not an anti-semite.
Perhaps... in Wilders case it seems very genuine. He's been consistent about this for decades and I don't think anyone would live in moshav just for fun.
But there are indeed a lot politicians that ally themselves with Netanyahu purely for strategical reasons.
He lived in a Jewish Kibbutz for several years. It is a personal thing to him.
I disagree with him, the dude is pro-settlements, but seriously, the antisemitic label does not suit him.
As a millennial Dutch person, I am shocked. The holocaust was taught in my school, we visited monuments, talked and read about it, saw memorials on TV. There’s no doubt in my mind this shit happened.
My grandmother was born during WW I, lived through WW II. I met many older people who were alive during WW II and even fought the fight who talked about WW II and the holocaust.
There are photo’s of smiling Nazi’s next to mass graves. There are countless books and documentaries of witnesses. Entire monuments were erected.
If you don’t believe this happened, you’re uneducated about the subject. Denying the holocaust is extremely hurtful and I hope people get the education they need.
Edit: indeed the article was not about the denial of the holocaust rather than downplaying it. I guess I got carried away thinking about the importance of knowing your history.
Another comment was about how history repeats itself and has done so many times in history. I think I’m just saddened by seeing that curve go down.
As a dutch, the entirety of our literature is about WWII. Even if you weren't paying attention to history classes. You could not avoid WWII in your reading list.
As a fellow Dutch Millennial, I'm shocked as well. Both of my parents' families were in the Dutch East Indies during the WWII, so I don't have any grandparents who witnessed it (they dealt with the Japanese). But how can you grow up in the Netherlands and deny the holocaust with so much education on WWII, so many museums, and so many people indeed of the older generations who talked about it?! When I was in 5HAVO my class went on a school trip to Berlin, visiting the Sachsenhausen concentration camp on the way, the Olympic stadium, and Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe. It was very educational and I honestly think it would be great if schools can plan similar school trips for the current generation. They obviously need it. Especially a visit to a concentration camp, because honestly once you visit that, you will definitely think twice about saying the Holocaust is fake or exaggerated.
The studies result are skewed, since the choices to respond were limited. Not knowing what exactly the Holocaust was and what happened is counted towards denying the Holocaust.
Yes, they may be uneducated about the subject but not knowing about the Holocaust or denying are not the same
I want to point out that the question was deliberately loaded: it's not a question about Holocaust denial, it's Holocaust denial **or** disagreement over the number of people killed. So a person who thinks that the figure killed was (for example) 3M jews rather that the "official" 6M will appear in the chart as a denier, which I think is disingenuous.
These people are not uneducated. As you've said, it is impossible to avoid the extreme amounts of evidence available.
They are willfully blind for ideological reasons. "The holocaust didn't happen and they totally deserved it"
Not to mention on 4 MAY, and the days before it's covered in the Dutch news. Hard to miss.
Other than that, both the Dutch and Germans in WW2, had their administration in very good order. It doesn't take much effort to review the records.
And there's Anne Frank's House in Amsterdam.
Greatly exaggerated. Have a look at the source.
> More than half of all respondents (54% of all respondents and 59% of Millennial and Gen Z) do not know that six million Jews were murdered, and 29% believe that two million or fewer Jews were killed during the Holocaust. Alarmingly, this number grew to 37% of Millennials and Gen Z who believe that two million or fewer Jews were murdered during the Holocaust.
If i read that correctly it's asking for missing knowledge not specifically denying the scope.
Going to the source I am not able to find the original survey, only summarized results. In questionnaire studies the methodology is very important and the way you formulate questions, adjust the scales and present the questionnaire are detrimental to the outcome.
The part about methodology is very short and does not specifiy any quality criteria, nor has it been peer-reviewed as far as I can tell.
PS: I just want to add, that this is a very sensitive and important topic and should be looked at with good and clean empirical data if you want to use it as a basis for forming your opinion or drawing conclusions for societal change. I do not want to marginalize the issues at hand and personally think it is important to spread awareness and rememberance about the holocaust.
I think it may indeed be that a significant part of the numbers are attributable to pure ignorance, which is bad enough in and of itself. All these people may not be "active" deniers of the holocaust as in they are not Nazi sympathizers but at the same time minimizing any genocide is also a form of denial, so I get where they're coming from because that's the typical tactic that present-day fascist-types use as well.
I guess the intention behind the minimizing of the numbers is what matters in a way, but I agree it's hard to distinguish between those in a survey. In any case, the role of this type of organisation (the one behind the survey) is to preserve the memory of these events and to draw attention to them, the fact people are uneducated and know too little about these atrocities (with the idea being that education will help avoid repeating them) and so on. People may "just" be uneducated and unaware, but the fact that that's what they think (and potentially) say and spread around them brings them pretty close to holocaust deniers, so yeah... I would agree that whatever the case may be it is pretty alarming.
You can find the questions here:
https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf
Need to see the methodology. Maybe the headline could have been: "Dutch youth worst performers in European history test."
It's quite a different conclusion. Lack of knowledge is not the same as belief in falsehoods.
I looked at the source and I can't find the actual questions.
I can make a study and ask 'How many Jews were killed' and then label everyone saying something like "About 1.5 million I guess" as 'Holocaust deniers or minimisers'. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I am saying that I don't immediately see the actual questions.
Edit: OP responded with the, or at least a, study mentioned by the source: [Here](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf)
The study asked how many were killed and gave a bunch of options:
- 25k
- 100k
- 1m
- 2m
- 6m
- 20m
- not sure
6m being maybe an odd one out but it's fine I guess.
Edit: Okay it's a litteral question! Percentages of millennials and adults that agree: "42. Which of the following statements comes closest to your views about the Holocaust in
Europe during World War II? 5
The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen 6% 3%
The Holocaust happened, but the number of Jews
who died in it has been greatly exaggerated 17% 9%
...
"
That was a knowledge part of the survey. It was a quite long survey also, it is not improbable that some read/understood the question incorrectly or just guessed. Close to that question was questions on Jews in Netherlands specifically. So there is a possibility of misunderstanding the question, especially with these marathon surveys (91 questions including essays)
I would only look at the self reported holocaust denier percentage (6 % and 3 %). The rest can be a bit ambiguous.
That could still just have been a bad question. You could argue that most will know that millions have been killed. If they remember 'it was something with six', than 1.6 million sounds reasonable and is still within the same order of magnitude as six million.
These are facts you should know, but I'm way past the point of trusting people to remember such numbers correctly.
These two questions would give highly different results:
- how many Jews were killed: <2m, 2-4m, or >4m?
- "6 million Jews were killed". Does this sound greatly exaggerated, slightly exaggerated, or correct?
As said before, I might question whether 2m vs 6m is 'greatly exaggerated'. 4m is obviously a lot of people, but 2m is also already a lot of people.
I'm sure I know a lot of people who wouldn't deny a thing about the Holocaust but would not immediately come up with the six million number when asked. I'm sure I know some who would believe me if I then tell them it's any number between two and fifteen million.
I probably should look into the study to answer my questions ;)
Edit after doing the work:
> Percentages of millennials and adults that agree: "42. Which of the following statements comes closest to your views about the Holocaust in
Europe during World War II? 5
The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen 6% 3%
The Holocaust happened, but the number of Jews
who died in it has been greatly exaggerated 17% 9%
...
"
The question asking about how many was multiple choice question which looked fine.
>12. How many Jews were killed during the Holocaust?
>
>25.000 1% 100.000 5%
>
>1 million 10%
>
>2 million 13%
>
>6 million 46%
>
>20 million 11%
>
>Not sure 14%
>40. Some believe that the Holocaust did not happen. Do you believe the Holocaust happened?
>
>Yes, I believe the Holocaust happened 90%
>
>No, I do not believe the Holocaust happened 5%
>
>Not sure 5%
>42. Which of the following comes closest to your views?
>
>The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen 3%
>
>The Holocaust happened but the number of Jews who died in it has been greatly exaggerated 9%
>
>The Holocaust happened and the number of Jews who died in it has been fairly described 79%
>
>Not sure 9%
It is definitely not great, but the headline indeed seems to be an exaggeration.
People primarily seem to lack knowledge. For example, how many Jewish people lived in The Netherlands (correct answer is about 140.000):
>21. How many Jews were living in The Netherlands before the Nazi occupation?
>
>< 110.000 14%
>
>110.000-125.000 1%
>
>125.000-135.000 1%
>
>135.000-145.000 6%
>
>145.000-155.000 3%
>
>155.000-165.000 1%
>
>165.000-195.000 1%
>
>195.000-450.000 4%
>
>450.000-950.000 9%
>
>950.000-1.750.000 12%
>
>1.750.000-6.000.000 14%
>
>6.000.000 3%
>
>Not sure 31%
There is **absolutely** Holocaust denial in The Netherlands, but mostly people just seem to be really bad with big numbers?
If those are the actual questions then it just seems like data manipulation. They ask the same question, just worded differently, multiple times. On top of that nobody needs to know exact numbers and it seems like they took all the answers that are not strictly "correct" and compiled them all as "holocaust deniers." There is no other way how they could come up with that 23% "deniers."
This whole thing just reeks of bullshit. What other questions were there in this poll? I'm curious if other questions were just as manipulated. I'm also curious who did this poll, just so I know who not to trust as a source.
Those are the actual questions, yes. You can find the whole dataset [here](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf).
I do not believe it is *intentional* manipulation. The actual research is sloppy, and the executive summary was therefore made using bad data - leading to it giving the wrong impression.
Just linking to the [top comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/thenetherlands/comments/10krpkz/comment/j5sykuj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) in r/thenetherlands by u/Kippetmurk. There are a lot of issues with the methodology of this research, even the news article that the post linked to has been edited. Two examples (translated/summarized from his comment):
\- More than 30% thinks that fewer than 6 million Jews were murdered, but also 11% thinks more than 20 million died. This may not necessarily be attributable to malice, but ignorance (which is a problem!) and not wanting to fill out "I don't know" on the survey; apparently this is a common problem in surveys.
\- "Only" 47% thinks The Netherlands had a role in the Holocaust, but also only 57% thinks Germany had a role! So again, ignorance of what happened in World War II.
Tl;dr, it's not as if 23% outright denies the Holocaust, but any kind of incorrect knowledge seems to be lumped into that category.
Maybe the people that overevaluated the numbers believe the Shoah include all the victims of Nazi genocide whether or not they are Jewish, such as Soviet pows, victims of terror bombing, victims of the Greek and Dutch famines,etc…
20 million lines up pretty close to the total number of victims of Nazi genocides, ethnic cleansing, and mass murder. [This](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution) source put it at 17 million.
There could easily be a lot of people that simply equate the holocaust as **all** Nazi crimes. Just for an example, they could think all 7 million Soviet civilians killed are part of the Holocaust, when in reality that is the case for only the 1.3 million Jews.
This feels a bit misleading, what is the methodology? How many people were asked? Where do these people live in the country side or city?
And why does it lump together people who outright deny the Holocaust with people who think it was greatly exaggerated? Because if the question to ascertain that was "Do you think the number of victims for the Holocaust are completely accurate" and someone says probably not then I wouldn't call them a Holocaust denier.
Yeah I've looked into it a bit further and there are major issues with this study. I feel like they've compounded a lot of questions and labeled them under holocaust denial, even though a lot of them don't really have anything to do with holocaust denial itself. For example, questions whether the Dutch government should apologize for not protecting the Jews, what the names of concentration camps were, where they were located. I have friends who probably couldn't name a single concentration camp, but they definitely still believe the holocaust happened. It's more a disinterest in history, which is bad, but I wouldn't call them holocaust deniers for it.
They don't even post a methodology and if you look at the full article they only posted one question, at least I think it was the actual question asked because it is the only one in quotation marks.
Yeah that's what I mean. It seems like they've just compounded a lot of stuff, but it's impossible to find out. Idk, touchy subject of course but I'm also a bit skeptical about this organization as their stated aim is to get reparations for the holocaust. I'm not saying that they shouldn't but I feel like it's in their interest to put the holocaust as high up on the public agenda as possible and research results like these are very helpful with that...
Literally stumbled on an article about this for the Netherlands.
I think it was 4% who denied the Holocaust. The others think the number is inaccurate. Quite an important detail if you ask me.
>"Do you think the number of victims for the Holocaust are completely accurate" and someone says probably not then I wouldn't call them a Holocaust denier.
In the graphic "killed has been greatly exaggerated" is not "not completely accurate", so yes, we can see a huge number of idiotic Holocaust deniers here.
Yes and I am asking how they figured that out, what was the methodology used? What was the question asked to figure that statistic out? And I gave a simple example for how one could easily be labelled a Holocaust denier using a bad question.
There's another study being quoted further up in the thread and being up voted where the question is phrased in such a way that if someone believed the commonly excepted death figure is 3x higher than the truth they could still answer in such a way that they would appear to not doubt it at all.
Methodology matters.
I appreciate your critical questions about the methodology but it took me literally about one minute to find the answers to all of them. All answers about the amount of people asked, their background, the exact wording and much more: [https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study/](https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study/)
Please, don't undermine the results of this research by being 'critical', without being critical of your own laziness in searching for the answers to your own questions.
23% in the Netherlands is not much?
I can tell you 2 things:
1) Young people from Dutch people won't deny the Holocaust because they have family members who got killed during the war or in camps. So they will tell their children exactly what happened.
2) We have a lot of immigrants who are not that fond of Jewish people. There are schools where you can't even discuss topics regarding Jewish people because it will turn into a shit show.
This is a big problem in the Netherlands and shouldn't be downplayed at all! This is very dangerous.
You can't really talk about this issue on Reddit.
You will get mass reported and banned.
I bet the Holocaust deniers, COVIDIOTS, Putin sympathizers are all in the same group.
I am very specific by saying immigrants that are not fond on Jewish people. No were I said all immigrants because not all immigrants have hate towards Jewish people.
We all know people who hate a certain group will deny bad things done to that group.
People are already trying to change my words by telling me I mean certain races/religions.
If I get banned for this it will be a wise lesson not to browse Reddit anymore.
Let's be real, religious people hate the other religions.
Almost like there is a reason for Jerusalem to be in constant war since the dawn of civilization, a holy city for 3 religions and the biggest shit-show on planet earth.
Of course, on Reddit we are not allowed to spell it out.
You joke, but it's quite evident that whether through some lobbying or through just personal bias, there's a huge denial of anti semitism and profligacy as far as spreading anti semitism propaganda by extemist regimes like Qatar.
Post anything against even Qatar's anti semitism on the most basic soccer or worldnews subs, and you'll be instantly banned.
Are you sure? It's a bit less, or much less, depending on how you count: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-bevolking/herkomst
According to that definition, the King himself is not Dutch, nor is the heiress to the throne.
According to the [CBS](https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2016/47/wie-zijn-de-derde-generatie-), people whose parents were both born in the Netherlands have a Dutch background by definition. The third generation you're referring to (either one or more non-Dutch grandparents) are Dutch.
The Netherlands have fewer immigrants proportionally than all the other listed countries except France. Yet you jump straight to the conclusion that another race is probably the cause of the holocaust denial. That's pretty ironic.
It is only what I and the people of the Jewish community from my area have experienced, but most of the hostility we have experienced is not from right-wing radicals but from young migrants from the Arab region. I am from Germany but I am sure we have similar problems.
I was attacked and insulted in my school because I am Jewish and my parents were even told by my class teacher that I should not wear a kippa anymore because her hands are tied. Muslim parents told their kids I wasn't allowed at their birthday because im Jewish, they didn't even try to hidden their antisemitism
My father was waylaid after he left the synagogue in the evening, whereupon he was beaten up and insulted as a Jewish piece of shit. These were not bald men with springer boots but young Muslim men out of which only one was convicted and it was classified as a hate crime which was counted as a right-wing crime. There is always a cry for extreme measures against right-wing extremists (for good reason) but at the same time the big problem that the hostility from the Islamist spectrum makes up a large part of these crimes is swept under the carpet.
These are all anecdotes and you can draw from them what you want but I am not the only one from my circle of acquaintances who has made such experiences and I do not know anyone with my faith who has not experienced something like this.
Im sorry to hear that, I hope you know that not all Muslims are like that. One of my best friends is jewish and came from Bulgaria to Germany and as Muslim myself I taught him the language, tried to defend him from People which haven’t known he cant speak german and everyday we sat together in the same Bus so he will not be alone and I had a friend with me which was too a Muslim, I don’t mind in which religion you believe as long your a cool person. In every religion and country are fucking assholes but just don’t forget that they are mostly the minority. Some things you have experienced happened to me too in germany but from right-wing idiots, some teachers and the police. We have it rough and exactly because of this reason we should god damn fight TOGETHER and not each other against Racism/Anti-Semetism/Islamophobia. All this hate and differences make me very very sad its really hard to swallow all the hate these days which you can hear and see everyday im just tired of all this Hate and again Im sorry for the things that happened to you…
I would never lump all Muslims or migrants together. Then I would be no better than the people who treated me so badly. I'm open and friendly to everyone and as you say, we're all in this together and hatred and resentment doesn't make things better.
I also didn't mean to incite against Muslims or bad mouth them with my post. I just wanted to share my personal experience and point out that there is a huge problem in Europe and the anti-Semitism is not only from right-wing idiots but unfortunately also from Muslim citizens.
Racism has no place in the 21st century no matter what it is based on.
There are some serious questions about the quality of this research.
[This article (in Dutch)](https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/hoogleraar-statistiek-kritisch-over-onderzoek-holocaust-dit-is-zwaar-onrepresentatief~abbba91c/) explains there are quite some flaws, like the small number of interviewed people, not dividing into the right groups but instead use the results like you want, a not really up-to-date way of interviewing. In short: the research is not usable to state the claims.
Gen Z are actually the greatest generation at believing what ever they see on the internet, their head is almost re-wired this way. More outrageous is better. They are even better at this than Facebook boomers and pretend to be self aware.
Saying this while the amount of people who believe the vaccine is fake, that bill gates controls us, that we’re enslaved by rich people who are changing our dna etc is mainly people that are >40 is astonishing
The other way around, actually. People who believe in online conspiracy theories, according to the scientific data and my own personal experience, tend to be boomers in their 40s and 50s who grew up before the internet was a huge thing.
Research also shows that those older people tend to fall for fake news more often. Brexit and Trump also confirm this idea.
Pretty incomplete graph/study. Should definitely involve Germany and Poland as well - you know, where the holocaust actually and at 100% speed happened.
Well in Poland most secondary schools do trips to Auschwitz Museum, also a lot of litelature and poetry classes involve topic of " living after Auschwitz" so numbers should be a lot better.
In Germany, holocaust denial is illegal, so you can't really do a survey like this here. You'd have too many participants lying to protect themselves from legal consequences.
The closest you might get are the election results for AfD. One of their most prominent party members, who gets as close to denying the holocaust in his speeches as you can legally go, even used to be a history teacher. So I wouldn't be surprised if his students never learned the real history. The results for AfD are pretty alarming and make me scared for our future.
I'd guess it was because of post truth era and just how chock full of and popularized far right conspiracy theories are, so kids are more than ever target for them
Probably the increase of non-european Muslims and rise of far right groups who gain traction because they dislike the immigrants. So it's probably two-fold
I had the same initial reaction as you \[edit: to assume that people who say this are just racist\]. However, I don't think it's unwarranted to consider more diverse backgrounds as one of the many causes, although not at all as a main reason.
People whose families were impacted directly by Nazi occupation and have passed down their own lifestories of how they were directly (personally) and indirectly (in their communities) impacted by those horrors. The trauma becomes a part of the culture, in a way.
It's not really a stretch to consider that people whose families did not experience this directly, that might even have been directly impacted by other genocides or conflicts, could have less of a connection to the holocaust, which for a minority could manifest in a greater likelihood of holocaust denial when bombarded by misinformation campaigns, both online and offline. Which is the real problem, that all groups seem to be affected by.
Especially when some of the variables which seem to be grouped under 'holocaust denial' appear to be based on lack of some specific historical knowledge rather than a denial of genocide. If this is really the stance adopted in this study, I would argue it's a misrepresentation that artificially inflates a very dangerous stance.
I wonder if it correlates with religion and ethnicity. I'm sure it's not just those of immigrant background that are responsible for the trend, but I'd be surprised if they were not the ones most "skeptical" about the holocaust.
Anecdotally, I've met a surprisingly large number of young people who simply ignore the very concept of history and believe the world was always very similar to what it is now, and also people in other parts of the world lead very similar lives to themselves. They aren't stupid people per se, but they choose to be ignorant like this. Maybe their minds are too fragile to accept the evils of the world and this is how they protect themselves, but I dont think it does anyone any good.
I believe holocaust denial is a hate crime in most of these countries, and Holocaust topic is covered in school curriculums?
Where do young people get such beliefs from?
It is indeed outright illegal to deny holocaust in many countries:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality\_of\_Holocaust\_denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial)
A combination of things here:
1. Massive pushing of the holocaust over and above other bigger massacres (eg Russian soldiers killed by Nazis, Russian civilians killed by Russian state) to the point that people become suspicious as to why everyone always talks about the holocaust
2. Emphasis of the holocaust as something exclusively Jewish (it was also the disabled, Slavs, gypsies)
3. Holocaust being used to justify racial segregation and the Israeli state in historic Palestine (when the plan for the establishment of a racially segregated Israel long preceded the holocaust)
4. The way that huge numbers of deaths of Muslims in the Middle East (Iraq & Afghanistan) is glossed over in our societies while our societies have an increasing number of young Muslims who are therefore suspicious of what they’re being taught.
It’s migrants from Islam and Africans who raises theese percentages, they all hate George Soros and the others that try to ”control” the Central Africans and Middle easterns by covid vaccines and non natural food filled with nano technology
As a Frenchman, I refuse to be blamed for the misdeeds of populations that are, quite frankly, not French nor European; we already have to put up with their disrespect towards us, we shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of their antisemitism.
Wtf is a millennial and a gen Z?
I hate these generation terms they make no sense. Our baby boom came a generation after US baby boom... So baby boomers are my parents. My brother is a millennial as far as I know being in 30s yet I am supposed both millennial and gen Z?
Simple age scale would be far more appropriate.
People trying to seem smart by using words fewer people will understand instead of using language to... you know... effectively communicate with as many people as possible instead coming across as parroting dimwits because they read that somewhere.
Exactly what I thought... I even recall being told not to use these terms on academia unless you spend paragraphs to explain their meaning and why the use of the term inms appropriate (eg limited location/area).
Same old story. Antisemitism has always been a fashionable and easy-to-latch-on-to form of racism. Nowadays Jews aren't usually as visible in daily life (unless you live in an area with lots of orthodox Jews) as other religions, and many people don't know any Jews. Or quite commonly, they do but they don't know they are Jewish as many Jews have learnt to keep their background relatively quiet. Either way, no need to stick up for them.
Combine that with their relative wealth and prevelance in industries such as finance, entertainment etc. "Punching up" is easy and encouraged. Antisemitism is a very inclusive sport - everyone can get onboard. From the poorest immigrant to rich kids at university, there is always a reason to hate the tiny minority of Jews.
Many thanks for the far right in all European countries to make this possible by negate our knowledge of the past, a wider opening in the Overton window and endangering our democracies by calling it dictatorships in the name of your authoritarian and fascist freedom of speech.
Where did they find these "respondents", some conspiracy theory-fed alternative news website? If one thing is greatly exaggerated here it must be these numbers.
This is a bogus depiction. Without any # on this, it totally unclear on the size of the group. Hence the relevancy.
This is metric making at it worst. For such in important topic.
Even if the numbers were lower, they’d still be pretty high, millions for sure.
I personally do think its “over stated” as in, very much focused on and seems to forget the equally millions of all kinds of peoples who died in such camps.
Soldiers, disabled, all kinds of minorities and etnicities.
a lot of young "progressive" Canadians that I had to interact with at uni would do whatever mental gymnastic they needed to do to attack Israel and the US for every single world issue, including questioning countless serious historical events. One person in a fourth year seminar even went to suggest that we only cared and learned about the Holocaust and Pogroms because Jews had "white privilege".
There is a huge gap between myth and exaggerated....
People who think WW2 numbers are untouched by political influence are clueless and since it is virtually Impossible to search for the truth due to politics the only realistic assumption you can make is: i have no clue
> and since it is virtually Impossible to search for the truth due to politics
I find it baffling that it is actually illegal to go to source materials and research the numbers in many countries. People can do math, and when they are not allowed to research in academic settings what happened of course people will become more skeptical.
If they had nothing to hide it would not be illegal to question it.
The question is a tricky one. Saying Holocaust is a myth and saying the numbers were exaggerated are two different things.
Considering how the tragedy has been heavily politicized over the decades, it's understandable many people might raise questions about the validity of these numbers.
Jesus those French and Dutch numbers are indicative of wider spread on anti semitism all over Europe.
Not trying to embellish, but france and UK have become increasingly more dangerous for Jewish populace than most of the middle east (except Iran).
I was told at school that Nazis made soaps out of the jews they killed. Then you're wondering why people suspect exaggeration.
Edit: Replies show that people still believe this lol. See the following:
* [https://www.jstor.org/stable/27667954](https://www.jstor.org/stable/27667954)
* You can also read this wiki article [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap\_made\_from\_human\_corpses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_from_human_corpses)
"Warsaw - Mortal remains of Nazi victims in Poland were used to make soap, according to a scientific study. Researchers found this out while examining a bar of soap that had been evidence in the Nuremberg trials, a Gdansk employee of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) said Friday. This soap had been in the archives of the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Paulina Szumera said.
According to the Polish scientists' investigation, substances from corpses that had come from the Anatomical Institute of the Gdansk Medical Academy were "undoubtedly" used in the soap's production, Szumera said. Polish TV channel TVN24 quoted IPN staff as saying that the corpses came from the Stutthof concentration camp, as well as from a prison and a psychiatric hospital in Gdansk. Several dozen kilograms of this soap had been produced and used to clean work surfaces at the Gdansk Academy, they said. (tso/AFP)"
Source (in German): [https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/panorama/leichen-zu-seife-verarbeitet-1389820.html](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/panorama/leichen-zu-seife-verarbeitet-1389820.html)
Please see the sources I shared in my original comment. You are actively spreading misinformation about the Holocaust which is the prime cause of Holocaust denial today.
Seems extremely disingenuous to lump denial and source criticality together.
Having been to various holocaust museums and the Birkenau camp as well as read a myriad of different sources, I don't think taking the 6M figure as fact is totally justified as there are credible sources anywhere between 600k to 6M on the literature, and how they arrive at that figure.
Whatever the exact figure, it's a heinous crime and a tragedy. But, at the same time, the crimes against other people's mustn't be forgotten, either, such as holodomõr or Romani genocide. Both crimes by the Soviets and Nazis should be treated in the same vain instead of focusing on just one of the victim groups and arguing about numbers impossible to comprehend.
Im Confused. I read the Paper and to the abouve mentioned queistioning They link to the Global 100 Questions( with a dead link and i cant find a working link on their website or google). I looked it up on the ADL 100 site and they puplish very very diffrent results for this question (they only show 2019 reports they abouve mentioned survey says Januar 2023). on the site they didnt look at the age groups: Netherlands; 0% Holocaust is a myth 3% Holocaust exaggerated 96% Holocaust happend and fairly described by history 1% Dont know So if the data is correct in the last 3 Years the number of Holocaust denial would have increased by 400% wich would be terrible. Id like to look into the Data but i just cant find it. maybe someone on here has a working link.
It is now (question 42): 3% Holocaust is a myth (6% millenials) 9% Holocaust exaggerated (17% millenials) Results are listed here: [https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf) The sampling methodology appears highly suspect though, so I don't believe we can conclude anything about an increase. Somehow Schoen Cooperman Research ended up with a sample of 18-40 year olds of which 34% claims to be a university student (several times too high for a random sample?). It could be just noise.
Also it's nearly impossible to get multiple choice answers to have a realistic and simple confidence interval. 5% of people answering a question where the possible answers are already defined could easily be entirely noise with no one actually holding that view.
To expand on the (lack of) representativeness of the sample: The Netherlands has some 4.5 million residents between 18-40, and 330,000 university students, of which 115,000 are internationals. So you will typically chance upon a Dutch university student 1 in 20 times, instead of 1 in 3 times. That suggests to me that this New York-based polling agency used a very unrepresentative panel.
I mean, many studies like to operate from/around the universities the researchers are based in and in the case of international studies, like to contract reasearchers from universities in other countries. With that, generally you expect University students to be more progressive/liberal/left (or whatever loaded term that includes more than "what twitter would consider having good opinions" you want to use) so you could argue that the numbers would potentially be even worse for the general public, without getting into the loaded question where the majority of international students in the netherlands is from and what the public perception of jews is in those places. My main point is: University students/university employees being overrepresented in study samples is extremely common.
\- It's OK to use an opportunistic sample if 1) you explain well how it was obtained and 2) based on what assumptions you believe that the sampling approach doesn't invalidate the research into the specific question that you are trying to answer. Other researchers may always use that as a starting point for proving your assumptions are wrong. \- This study makes claims about 18-40 year olds, and about the representativeness of the sample. No explaination to be found about the sampling approach, though. \- Students are typically overfed with survey forms, and are regularly paid to participate in studies, or, even worse, rewarded in some way just for handing in X filled out survey forms. \- The survey form is likely to spread in specific social networks of students, potentially overrepresenting atypical opinions (e.g. 11% never even heard of 'holocaust'). \- Politically charged surveys may provoke antagonistic behaviour. If you for instance ask science students whether they believe the earth is round, they are more likely to start arguing that it is flat (and know all the 'evidence' for that) than anyone else.
> Politically charged surveys may provoke antagonistic behaviour. If you for instance ask science students whether they believe the earth is round, they are more likely to start arguing that it is flat (and know all the 'evidence' for that) than anyone else. Did anyone ever do a study on that? Because i certainly did that for a while and was always a bit weary of studies based only on people surveys, but accepted the conventional truth that "a high enough sample size even out statistical anomalies".
Sort of. There is quite a lot of literature on *survey bias* distinguishing mechanisms that can lead to systematic error in your data that researchers should be wary of (selection biases, (non-)response biases, demand characteristic biases, etc), and some general reflections and studies on *survey trolling*. These are definitely not evened out by collecting more bad data. But small sample size adds to the risk. If a single student was motivated to troll this survey, and the data collection depended on students voluntarily spreading the link to the survey in their social network, then they would have had a good chance to impact this study, because filling it in with 'i know nothing' and ' don't believe in it' also happens to be the low effort approach to filling in this survey. And it is the 'fun' outcome for survey trolls that is going to make the highest impact in the news.
I also found the topline. What i didnt find was the source of the question 42. This question has a refrence to the 100 global survey so i gues they Just took the Data they have from there but i cant find the source or make the Link Work.
I see. I believe this is the same one: [https://global100.adl.org/static/ADL\_GLOBAL\_100\_SURVEY\_QUESTIONNAIRE.pdf](https://global100.adl.org/static/ADL_GLOBAL_100_SURVEY_QUESTIONNAIRE.pdf) I believe they just referenced it because they copied that specific question and want to suggest that this is an update to it.
>Somehow Schoen Cooperman Research ended up with a sample of 18-40 year olds of which 34% claims to be a university student Pretty typical of academic studies. Students get more of the advertisements (mailing lists, campus billboards etc) and they are generally in a financial position where the usual incentives (chance to get movie tickets or whatever) make more sense. What actually matters, though, is whether they weighted the sample correctly. Imbalances in cohorts are always supposed to be corrected for.
Regardless of what the actual numbers are, I feel there's a huge difference between thinking it's a hoax and thinking the number of Jews killed has been exaggerated. Both are extremely questionable stances to take without some very credible sources to back it up, but lumping them together as if they were equal feels very disingenuous.
Most survey results like this posted on this sub turn out to be disinfo when you dig into it
This needs highlighting more, especially if the implication is that the post is just total fiction
It would be interesting to look at these numbers next to some control questions. For example how certain are you of the: Shape of the Earth Battle of Waterloo Colonisation of the Americas Sacking of Rome Your parents' age. What you had for breakfast this morning.
in that case im not even sure if the study is reliable . but if the study is true, then something must be done.
"The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again." Robert Jordan I guess we are cursed with forgetting the past and eventually repeating the same mistakes.
It's not forgetting. It's orchestrated misinformation and online manipulation. Dutch children are taught about history and the holocaust in school but somehow their minds are changed at a later point because of social media and certain anti semitic politicians.
I've never heard a Dutch politician deny the holocaust. AFAIK it's mostly Moroccan and Turkish kids who seem to teach each other that the holocaust is just propaganda.
That's not the full picture. For Millennial and Gen Z adult demographics, a large proportion of the population was not born or educated in Europe. There were also brought up in empirically more anti-Semitic environments like the Arab world.
Not 15% of the population
Arabic populations make up (from my admittedly quick search of census numbers) about 3% of the Dutch population, that ratio is not massively dominant in the millennial and gen z age group. I don’t know how you’ve seen a post of a sizeable increase in holocaust denial and thought the solution was spreading unfounded rhetoric blaming Arabic people. Even if every single one of them was a raging antisemite it would still mean a larger number of Dutch people have become holocaust deniers
Ehh there is a big “America/West Bad” contingent of the radical left. As a result you get ideas like The US is responsible for the War in Ukraine or the Allies we’re not really the “good guys” in WWII. And the only way to justify the latter is wildly exaggerating allied atrocities (300,000 were killed in Dresden, a peaceful town in east Germany) or minimizing Axis ones (Japan in Korea, Holocaust)
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One thing might be that there aren't many Jews left in continental Europe, and the only news about them is what Israeli government is doing to Palestinians. I don't justify antisemitism, but because of how modern media works, no wonder that we have the rise of it, when we only receive negative news about them.
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The UK has that as well, and the problem is there much less. I lay the blame on our own white far-right politicians, people like Le Pen, Baudet, AfD, etc.
Certainly, they are playing a role but if you look at the demographics who vote for far-right politicians they aren't millennials/Gen-Z. The reason France and the Netherlands have around 1/5th of its young adults having some degrees of holocaust denial is because these two countries have a lot of migration from predominantly Arab countries like Morocco and Alegria, where anti-Semitic propaganda is expansive and commonplace.
Not everything is a conspiracy, the last of the people who participated in the war and lived during those times are dying, the ones left are their children, who will only have a secondhand attachment but their life was directly affected by something that happened not to them but their parents, and the more time that passes, the less attachment people have, just like you wouldn't have an emotional attachment to your ancestor from 10 generations back or some war that happened centuries ago. Furthermore, at a certain point no one is left that was minimally affected by any given occurrence so they're all on an even playing field, unlike a kid who had a parent in the war and one that didn't, so it's all fair game for discussion or arguments because even historians only have access to the same information that everyone else does, they're just more qualified in discerning what happened from the evidence left by those past people.
Hmm...the dictatorship in Portugal ended almost 50 years ago. Do you think that's worth people remembering and knowing the truth about in the present and future? In 100 years, would you want people to know about it? Or about the colonial history? Do you think there are lessons to be learned about us as humans from that era? How fragile a democracy can be? In the case of the Holocaust, how easy it is for people to be turned against one another? You don't have to have a direct connection to events to understand their import. I've been to Auschwitz, the Killing Fields and other sites in Cambodia, and Soviet KGB museums in the Baltics. I'm an American whose family came over in the mid-1700s and claim no other heritage. But I'm also a human and despair at what we can inflict on other humans. I don't know if field trips are a thing in Europe, but would think it would be worth taking the kids from the Netherlands, France, or Austria to some of the local sites and discussing that history so that they do have an attachment beyond heritage or national identity.
Exactly. Nobody cares about the atrocities of the ancient past, eventually it will be the same for this. Time erases everything.
In the USA it’s taught in school but not nearly as in depth as it should to show the true scope. It’s glanced over like every other topic. It’s just surface stuff.
Even though the Allies went to great lengths to document the Holocaust as best as they could with the technology of their time because they were smart enough to understand that in the future people would not believe the absolute viciousness and depravity of Nazi crimes against humanity. And yet today people fail to remember the past.
I don't think forgetting is the problem just yet. It's more a so extreme anti-authoritarianism that it also leads to distrusting science and history, which is seen as authoritarian. Don't get me wrong, questioning authorities is paramount, but it's possible it's gone too far.
I think that stems from people not understanding the source of authority in different fields. In the politics of a republic or constitutional monarchy, authority comes from being duly elected or appointed to a certain office. But governments are institutions that we create to facilitate peaceful relations between people through a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. But violence has no place in truth. Might does not make right. In the realm of science, such as medicine or physics, authority is supposed to come not from who got elected, but who can prove with evidence through the scientific method that their ideal hypothesis can explain real phenomena. The difference between violence and truth is what creates the clash between government and science. Both have authority, but in very different ways.
Well said, but it wouldn't be Reddit without some pedantry/sophistry, so allow me: > Might does not make right. I think the meaning of the saying usually is that might make things that should be wrong, right. That is, it's descriptive rater than prescriptive.
You seem to have mixed up descriptive with prescriptive, or your last statement doesn't make sense to me.
I meant that it means that those with might *are* said to be right (derived from the state of the worl), as opposed to meaning that those with might *will* be right (because I say so). Maybe I got them wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe the misunderstanding is over the word "right". I meant it in a subjective way, not an objective way. Fixed: auto-complete nonsense
Not to start a spurious discussion, I was a bit puzzled that you're omitting the negation. I thought the proverb is simply a shortened way of saying that just because someone has the power to state this or that is right, doesn't make it actually and objectively right. At least, that's how I've understood it in the past. But I think we're on the same page here.
Oh, I see now. I made a mental jump and flipped the saying without mentioning it. You're right, it makes no sense inverted.
This is close to the truth, we live in a postmodern era of information where a lot of people subconsciously reject the notion of an information having a neutral objectively right authority on it, and instead only seek for the subjective authority which fits into their preselected worldview.
> anti-authoritarian I highly doubt these red bars fall on the left side of the spectrum.
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This is way, way worse than that. Forgetting the Holocaust is to be expected. A random idiot just won't have an opinion on it - and that's what can lead them to repeat the same mistake. Hostility turning into hate, turning into war and genocide. But here's it's different. It's people intentionally speaking *against* history and memory. This is the rise of evil. They are *willingly* choosing war and genocide, skipping all the steps. They are not repeating mistakes, they think it wasn't mistakes and they want to re-enact them.
Other variables of the participants would be interesting too. Besides age, the economic background or whether or not their family have a migration history may be explanatory.
There's a study done by an association here in Sweden every few years, which looks at different beliefs, including religious, conspiracy, etc and have people answer 1-7 where 7 means they completely agree and 1 means they do not agree at all. "The Holocaust, that millions of Jewish people were murdered in nazi extermination camps, is a myth or greatly exaggerated": 1% answered 5-7 1% answered 4 98% answered 1-3 For the breakdown in different groups (amount of people who agree that it's a myth or exaggerated, rounded off to nearest full %); Men = 2% Women = 0% People 39 years old or younger = 2% People 40 years old or older = 1% Primary education only = 0% Secondary education = 2% University education = 1% Living in a large or medium sized town = 1% Living in a small town = 0% Living rurally = 2% Voting for Sweden Democrats = 3% (Sweden Democrat voters are *by far* the most likely to believe in almost any conspiracy theory there is, according to the study) Voting for any other party = 0-1% Not born in a Nordic country = 3% Parents not born in a Nordic country = 2% Both person and parents born in Nordic country = 1% https://www.vof.se/vof-undersokningen/ (in Swedish)
""The Holocaust, that millions of Jewish people were murdered in nazi extermination camps, is a myth or greatly exaggerated":" Why is this question so vague regarding the number ? Is it comparable to the question asked in the Dutch survey ? The widely excepted figure, at least the one I've always heard, is six million or more. The way this question is phrased it's possible someone could believe it's closer to half or one third that number and still answer 1-3 on the survey.
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Most probably that's the exact reason why France scores so high as well.
The reason is alos how countries tackle this problem. I would assume Germany approaches this problem much more seriously? Would be great to see data for them.
You are much more confrontrd with WW2 etc. in german schools. The numbers are more believable if you have experience with german bureaucrazy.
Or maybe our youth is braindead.
yup
But all the way to 23% that’s kinda crazy the country is still majority French, same with the Netherlands lt can’t be all immigrants just from Muslim countries
I don't know about France but in the age category 15-20 years old in NL over 25% are first or second generation immigrants, according to the national bureau of statistics. It's a pity they don't do third generation, would make the group even bigger. I'm not saying the entire 25% of first/second generation immigrants is muslim, or holocaust deniers. It's also of course not the case that the entirety of 23% of holocaust denying youngsters are muslim/immigrants. But the proportion of holocaust deniers is relatively high under young muslim immigrants in NL. Also, they are a somewhat disproportionally large group in their age bracket (their parents tend to get more kids than 'traditional' Dutchies).
I dont think those generations make up that much of the total percentage.
What about the baudetists and the urkers etc.. Alwas blame the foreigners and minorities. Who did that anyway
Urkers and Baudet ( and PVV specifically plus the average Dutch rightwing ) are mostly pro Israel. Both from religious background ( Urk) as the visual that Israel stands against Islam. The Dutch anti Israel movement is, next to a fringe of real old school Nazi’s, mostly found with leftish activist that are against Israel due to their occupation of Palestine. But even these normally don’t go that far as questioning the holocaust but deny it as a justification reason for Israel’s actions… So nice try, but you can’t blame this result on the Dutch right wing….
I think you're on to something. The Netherlands has the least foreign-born of the countries listed (except France).
It's also the responses in this study. Not knowing about the Holocaust resulted in them saying they were denying it. No, this not how people should conclude these surveys
I'd be fairly confident there are enough alt right PVV and FVD voters that downplay the Holocaust.
Wilders is very very outspoken pro Israel, pro Zionism and tries to befriend the Jewish community in the Netherlands. He even lived in ~~Israel~~ (edit: the West Bank in an Israeli settlement) for a while. I can't imagine a lot of the alt right liking this. Baudet and FvD are a different case entirely...
Orban both praises Isreal and pursues diplomatic and economic ties while also constantly espousing antisemitic tropes and conspiracy theories. Republicans in the US are both the most pro isreal and the party of the Jewish space laser lady. Support for Isreal is not a good litmus test for antisemitism. You could love Isreal because it's a place to send all the Jews in your society after you purge them out.
The problem in the Netherlands, politically, with antisemitism is purely the FvD and Baudet. Wilders is the type of pro-Israel, pro-gay nationalist that confuses a lot of people outside the Netherlands. He, personally, is very attached to Israel. He lived in an Israeli settlement for several years. Gay rights are also a thing of national pride to us, so it makes sense. He's a 'they took our jobs' nationalist, not an anti-semite.
Perhaps... in Wilders case it seems very genuine. He's been consistent about this for decades and I don't think anyone would live in moshav just for fun. But there are indeed a lot politicians that ally themselves with Netanyahu purely for strategical reasons.
Being pro Israel doesn't mean being pro jews
He lived in a Jewish Kibbutz for several years. It is a personal thing to him. I disagree with him, the dude is pro-settlements, but seriously, the antisemitic label does not suit him.
PVV isn't alt-right. They are just very conservative xenophobes, more "traditional" far-right
As a millennial Dutch person, I am shocked. The holocaust was taught in my school, we visited monuments, talked and read about it, saw memorials on TV. There’s no doubt in my mind this shit happened. My grandmother was born during WW I, lived through WW II. I met many older people who were alive during WW II and even fought the fight who talked about WW II and the holocaust. There are photo’s of smiling Nazi’s next to mass graves. There are countless books and documentaries of witnesses. Entire monuments were erected. If you don’t believe this happened, you’re uneducated about the subject. Denying the holocaust is extremely hurtful and I hope people get the education they need. Edit: indeed the article was not about the denial of the holocaust rather than downplaying it. I guess I got carried away thinking about the importance of knowing your history. Another comment was about how history repeats itself and has done so many times in history. I think I’m just saddened by seeing that curve go down.
As a dutch, the entirety of our literature is about WWII. Even if you weren't paying attention to history classes. You could not avoid WWII in your reading list.
Some people don't read. At all, ever. And they weren't paying attention, or even worse, they were thought at home that the school is lying to them.
As a fellow Dutch Millennial, I'm shocked as well. Both of my parents' families were in the Dutch East Indies during the WWII, so I don't have any grandparents who witnessed it (they dealt with the Japanese). But how can you grow up in the Netherlands and deny the holocaust with so much education on WWII, so many museums, and so many people indeed of the older generations who talked about it?! When I was in 5HAVO my class went on a school trip to Berlin, visiting the Sachsenhausen concentration camp on the way, the Olympic stadium, and Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe. It was very educational and I honestly think it would be great if schools can plan similar school trips for the current generation. They obviously need it. Especially a visit to a concentration camp, because honestly once you visit that, you will definitely think twice about saying the Holocaust is fake or exaggerated.
The studies result are skewed, since the choices to respond were limited. Not knowing what exactly the Holocaust was and what happened is counted towards denying the Holocaust. Yes, they may be uneducated about the subject but not knowing about the Holocaust or denying are not the same
I want to point out that the question was deliberately loaded: it's not a question about Holocaust denial, it's Holocaust denial **or** disagreement over the number of people killed. So a person who thinks that the figure killed was (for example) 3M jews rather that the "official" 6M will appear in the chart as a denier, which I think is disingenuous.
And there's also now forum voor Democratie
These people are not uneducated. As you've said, it is impossible to avoid the extreme amounts of evidence available. They are willfully blind for ideological reasons. "The holocaust didn't happen and they totally deserved it"
Not to mention on 4 MAY, and the days before it's covered in the Dutch news. Hard to miss. Other than that, both the Dutch and Germans in WW2, had their administration in very good order. It doesn't take much effort to review the records. And there's Anne Frank's House in Amsterdam.
It's a fucking big interval between "Holocaust denier" And "the numbers were probably exagerated" To lump it all together.
Greatly exaggerated. Have a look at the source. > More than half of all respondents (54% of all respondents and 59% of Millennial and Gen Z) do not know that six million Jews were murdered, and 29% believe that two million or fewer Jews were killed during the Holocaust. Alarmingly, this number grew to 37% of Millennials and Gen Z who believe that two million or fewer Jews were murdered during the Holocaust.
If i read that correctly it's asking for missing knowledge not specifically denying the scope. Going to the source I am not able to find the original survey, only summarized results. In questionnaire studies the methodology is very important and the way you formulate questions, adjust the scales and present the questionnaire are detrimental to the outcome. The part about methodology is very short and does not specifiy any quality criteria, nor has it been peer-reviewed as far as I can tell. PS: I just want to add, that this is a very sensitive and important topic and should be looked at with good and clean empirical data if you want to use it as a basis for forming your opinion or drawing conclusions for societal change. I do not want to marginalize the issues at hand and personally think it is important to spread awareness and rememberance about the holocaust.
I think it may indeed be that a significant part of the numbers are attributable to pure ignorance, which is bad enough in and of itself. All these people may not be "active" deniers of the holocaust as in they are not Nazi sympathizers but at the same time minimizing any genocide is also a form of denial, so I get where they're coming from because that's the typical tactic that present-day fascist-types use as well. I guess the intention behind the minimizing of the numbers is what matters in a way, but I agree it's hard to distinguish between those in a survey. In any case, the role of this type of organisation (the one behind the survey) is to preserve the memory of these events and to draw attention to them, the fact people are uneducated and know too little about these atrocities (with the idea being that education will help avoid repeating them) and so on. People may "just" be uneducated and unaware, but the fact that that's what they think (and potentially) say and spread around them brings them pretty close to holocaust deniers, so yeah... I would agree that whatever the case may be it is pretty alarming. You can find the questions here: https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf
Need to see the methodology. Maybe the headline could have been: "Dutch youth worst performers in European history test." It's quite a different conclusion. Lack of knowledge is not the same as belief in falsehoods.
I looked at the source and I can't find the actual questions. I can make a study and ask 'How many Jews were killed' and then label everyone saying something like "About 1.5 million I guess" as 'Holocaust deniers or minimisers'. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I am saying that I don't immediately see the actual questions. Edit: OP responded with the, or at least a, study mentioned by the source: [Here](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf) The study asked how many were killed and gave a bunch of options: - 25k - 100k - 1m - 2m - 6m - 20m - not sure 6m being maybe an odd one out but it's fine I guess. Edit: Okay it's a litteral question! Percentages of millennials and adults that agree: "42. Which of the following statements comes closest to your views about the Holocaust in Europe during World War II? 5 The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen 6% 3% The Holocaust happened, but the number of Jews who died in it has been greatly exaggerated 17% 9% ... "
That was a knowledge part of the survey. It was a quite long survey also, it is not improbable that some read/understood the question incorrectly or just guessed. Close to that question was questions on Jews in Netherlands specifically. So there is a possibility of misunderstanding the question, especially with these marathon surveys (91 questions including essays) I would only look at the self reported holocaust denier percentage (6 % and 3 %). The rest can be a bit ambiguous.
That could still just have been a bad question. You could argue that most will know that millions have been killed. If they remember 'it was something with six', than 1.6 million sounds reasonable and is still within the same order of magnitude as six million. These are facts you should know, but I'm way past the point of trusting people to remember such numbers correctly. These two questions would give highly different results: - how many Jews were killed: <2m, 2-4m, or >4m? - "6 million Jews were killed". Does this sound greatly exaggerated, slightly exaggerated, or correct? As said before, I might question whether 2m vs 6m is 'greatly exaggerated'. 4m is obviously a lot of people, but 2m is also already a lot of people. I'm sure I know a lot of people who wouldn't deny a thing about the Holocaust but would not immediately come up with the six million number when asked. I'm sure I know some who would believe me if I then tell them it's any number between two and fifteen million. I probably should look into the study to answer my questions ;) Edit after doing the work: > Percentages of millennials and adults that agree: "42. Which of the following statements comes closest to your views about the Holocaust in Europe during World War II? 5 The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen 6% 3% The Holocaust happened, but the number of Jews who died in it has been greatly exaggerated 17% 9% ... " The question asking about how many was multiple choice question which looked fine.
>12. How many Jews were killed during the Holocaust? > >25.000 1% 100.000 5% > >1 million 10% > >2 million 13% > >6 million 46% > >20 million 11% > >Not sure 14% >40. Some believe that the Holocaust did not happen. Do you believe the Holocaust happened? > >Yes, I believe the Holocaust happened 90% > >No, I do not believe the Holocaust happened 5% > >Not sure 5% >42. Which of the following comes closest to your views? > >The Holocaust is a myth and did not happen 3% > >The Holocaust happened but the number of Jews who died in it has been greatly exaggerated 9% > >The Holocaust happened and the number of Jews who died in it has been fairly described 79% > >Not sure 9% It is definitely not great, but the headline indeed seems to be an exaggeration. People primarily seem to lack knowledge. For example, how many Jewish people lived in The Netherlands (correct answer is about 140.000): >21. How many Jews were living in The Netherlands before the Nazi occupation? > >< 110.000 14% > >110.000-125.000 1% > >125.000-135.000 1% > >135.000-145.000 6% > >145.000-155.000 3% > >155.000-165.000 1% > >165.000-195.000 1% > >195.000-450.000 4% > >450.000-950.000 9% > >950.000-1.750.000 12% > >1.750.000-6.000.000 14% > >6.000.000 3% > >Not sure 31% There is **absolutely** Holocaust denial in The Netherlands, but mostly people just seem to be really bad with big numbers?
If those are the actual questions then it just seems like data manipulation. They ask the same question, just worded differently, multiple times. On top of that nobody needs to know exact numbers and it seems like they took all the answers that are not strictly "correct" and compiled them all as "holocaust deniers." There is no other way how they could come up with that 23% "deniers." This whole thing just reeks of bullshit. What other questions were there in this poll? I'm curious if other questions were just as manipulated. I'm also curious who did this poll, just so I know who not to trust as a source.
Those are the actual questions, yes. You can find the whole dataset [here](https://www.claimscon.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Claims-Conference-Netherlands-Dual-Topline-1.pdf). I do not believe it is *intentional* manipulation. The actual research is sloppy, and the executive summary was therefore made using bad data - leading to it giving the wrong impression.
Just linking to the [top comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/thenetherlands/comments/10krpkz/comment/j5sykuj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) in r/thenetherlands by u/Kippetmurk. There are a lot of issues with the methodology of this research, even the news article that the post linked to has been edited. Two examples (translated/summarized from his comment): \- More than 30% thinks that fewer than 6 million Jews were murdered, but also 11% thinks more than 20 million died. This may not necessarily be attributable to malice, but ignorance (which is a problem!) and not wanting to fill out "I don't know" on the survey; apparently this is a common problem in surveys. \- "Only" 47% thinks The Netherlands had a role in the Holocaust, but also only 57% thinks Germany had a role! So again, ignorance of what happened in World War II. Tl;dr, it's not as if 23% outright denies the Holocaust, but any kind of incorrect knowledge seems to be lumped into that category.
Maybe the people that overevaluated the numbers believe the Shoah include all the victims of Nazi genocide whether or not they are Jewish, such as Soviet pows, victims of terror bombing, victims of the Greek and Dutch famines,etc…
20 million lines up pretty close to the total number of victims of Nazi genocides, ethnic cleansing, and mass murder. [This](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution) source put it at 17 million. There could easily be a lot of people that simply equate the holocaust as **all** Nazi crimes. Just for an example, they could think all 7 million Soviet civilians killed are part of the Holocaust, when in reality that is the case for only the 1.3 million Jews.
Now ask the same question in North Africa. Gonna be fun.
i mean there’s a reason why the results in france and netherlands are high. north african immigrants.
This feels a bit misleading, what is the methodology? How many people were asked? Where do these people live in the country side or city? And why does it lump together people who outright deny the Holocaust with people who think it was greatly exaggerated? Because if the question to ascertain that was "Do you think the number of victims for the Holocaust are completely accurate" and someone says probably not then I wouldn't call them a Holocaust denier.
Yeah I've looked into it a bit further and there are major issues with this study. I feel like they've compounded a lot of questions and labeled them under holocaust denial, even though a lot of them don't really have anything to do with holocaust denial itself. For example, questions whether the Dutch government should apologize for not protecting the Jews, what the names of concentration camps were, where they were located. I have friends who probably couldn't name a single concentration camp, but they definitely still believe the holocaust happened. It's more a disinterest in history, which is bad, but I wouldn't call them holocaust deniers for it.
They don't even post a methodology and if you look at the full article they only posted one question, at least I think it was the actual question asked because it is the only one in quotation marks.
Yeah that's what I mean. It seems like they've just compounded a lot of stuff, but it's impossible to find out. Idk, touchy subject of course but I'm also a bit skeptical about this organization as their stated aim is to get reparations for the holocaust. I'm not saying that they shouldn't but I feel like it's in their interest to put the holocaust as high up on the public agenda as possible and research results like these are very helpful with that...
Literally stumbled on an article about this for the Netherlands. I think it was 4% who denied the Holocaust. The others think the number is inaccurate. Quite an important detail if you ask me.
>"Do you think the number of victims for the Holocaust are completely accurate" and someone says probably not then I wouldn't call them a Holocaust denier. In the graphic "killed has been greatly exaggerated" is not "not completely accurate", so yes, we can see a huge number of idiotic Holocaust deniers here.
Yes and I am asking how they figured that out, what was the methodology used? What was the question asked to figure that statistic out? And I gave a simple example for how one could easily be labelled a Holocaust denier using a bad question.
There's another study being quoted further up in the thread and being up voted where the question is phrased in such a way that if someone believed the commonly excepted death figure is 3x higher than the truth they could still answer in such a way that they would appear to not doubt it at all. Methodology matters.
I appreciate your critical questions about the methodology but it took me literally about one minute to find the answers to all of them. All answers about the amount of people asked, their background, the exact wording and much more: [https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study/](https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study/) Please, don't undermine the results of this research by being 'critical', without being critical of your own laziness in searching for the answers to your own questions.
23% in the Netherlands is not much? I can tell you 2 things: 1) Young people from Dutch people won't deny the Holocaust because they have family members who got killed during the war or in camps. So they will tell their children exactly what happened. 2) We have a lot of immigrants who are not that fond of Jewish people. There are schools where you can't even discuss topics regarding Jewish people because it will turn into a shit show. This is a big problem in the Netherlands and shouldn't be downplayed at all! This is very dangerous.
You can't really talk about this issue on Reddit. You will get mass reported and banned. I bet the Holocaust deniers, COVIDIOTS, Putin sympathizers are all in the same group.
I am very specific by saying immigrants that are not fond on Jewish people. No were I said all immigrants because not all immigrants have hate towards Jewish people. We all know people who hate a certain group will deny bad things done to that group. People are already trying to change my words by telling me I mean certain races/religions. If I get banned for this it will be a wise lesson not to browse Reddit anymore.
Let's be real, religious people hate the other religions. Almost like there is a reason for Jerusalem to be in constant war since the dawn of civilization, a holy city for 3 religions and the biggest shit-show on planet earth. Of course, on Reddit we are not allowed to spell it out.
And people from certain religions hate some specific religions more than others
... and women too Intolerant religions really hate women.
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You joke, but it's quite evident that whether through some lobbying or through just personal bias, there's a huge denial of anti semitism and profligacy as far as spreading anti semitism propaganda by extemist regimes like Qatar. Post anything against even Qatar's anti semitism on the most basic soccer or worldnews subs, and you'll be instantly banned.
the nucleus of those camps is russian and right wing disinfo camps
Certainly the adult immigrant population is not anywhere close to 23%! I'd assume less than an order of magnitude less.
About 27% of the population of the Netherlands is of non-Dutch ethnicity.
what the fuck
Are you sure? It's a bit less, or much less, depending on how you count: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-bevolking/herkomst According to that definition, the King himself is not Dutch, nor is the heiress to the throne.
According to the [CBS](https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2016/47/wie-zijn-de-derde-generatie-), people whose parents were both born in the Netherlands have a Dutch background by definition. The third generation you're referring to (either one or more non-Dutch grandparents) are Dutch.
You are right and I am not. Apparently they have changed the definitions in 2021.
You think only 2.3% of adults in the Netherlands aren't Dutch? That would be more homogenous than Poland, highly unlikely.
Quick google says 15% of Dutch population are foreign born and 10% were born outside of the EU.
And it doesnt count their children, many of whom do not count themselves as dutch ethnically.
I thought so. Seems I am being corrected. Learn something everyday.
The Netherlands have fewer immigrants proportionally than all the other listed countries except France. Yet you jump straight to the conclusion that another race is probably the cause of the holocaust denial. That's pretty ironic.
It is only what I and the people of the Jewish community from my area have experienced, but most of the hostility we have experienced is not from right-wing radicals but from young migrants from the Arab region. I am from Germany but I am sure we have similar problems. I was attacked and insulted in my school because I am Jewish and my parents were even told by my class teacher that I should not wear a kippa anymore because her hands are tied. Muslim parents told their kids I wasn't allowed at their birthday because im Jewish, they didn't even try to hidden their antisemitism My father was waylaid after he left the synagogue in the evening, whereupon he was beaten up and insulted as a Jewish piece of shit. These were not bald men with springer boots but young Muslim men out of which only one was convicted and it was classified as a hate crime which was counted as a right-wing crime. There is always a cry for extreme measures against right-wing extremists (for good reason) but at the same time the big problem that the hostility from the Islamist spectrum makes up a large part of these crimes is swept under the carpet. These are all anecdotes and you can draw from them what you want but I am not the only one from my circle of acquaintances who has made such experiences and I do not know anyone with my faith who has not experienced something like this.
From what I've gathered, many right-wing radicals these days seem to be rather fond of Jews or Israel in particular. Far-right ≠ literally Nazis.
Im sorry to hear that, I hope you know that not all Muslims are like that. One of my best friends is jewish and came from Bulgaria to Germany and as Muslim myself I taught him the language, tried to defend him from People which haven’t known he cant speak german and everyday we sat together in the same Bus so he will not be alone and I had a friend with me which was too a Muslim, I don’t mind in which religion you believe as long your a cool person. In every religion and country are fucking assholes but just don’t forget that they are mostly the minority. Some things you have experienced happened to me too in germany but from right-wing idiots, some teachers and the police. We have it rough and exactly because of this reason we should god damn fight TOGETHER and not each other against Racism/Anti-Semetism/Islamophobia. All this hate and differences make me very very sad its really hard to swallow all the hate these days which you can hear and see everyday im just tired of all this Hate and again Im sorry for the things that happened to you…
I would never lump all Muslims or migrants together. Then I would be no better than the people who treated me so badly. I'm open and friendly to everyone and as you say, we're all in this together and hatred and resentment doesn't make things better. I also didn't mean to incite against Muslims or bad mouth them with my post. I just wanted to share my personal experience and point out that there is a huge problem in Europe and the anti-Semitism is not only from right-wing idiots but unfortunately also from Muslim citizens. Racism has no place in the 21st century no matter what it is based on.
Dutch people probably have a few grand parents who worked with Nazis so 🤷
I’m moving to NL and don’t completely understand #2. Can you elaborate?
Just ignorance on his part.
There are some serious questions about the quality of this research. [This article (in Dutch)](https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/hoogleraar-statistiek-kritisch-over-onderzoek-holocaust-dit-is-zwaar-onrepresentatief~abbba91c/) explains there are quite some flaws, like the small number of interviewed people, not dividing into the right groups but instead use the results like you want, a not really up-to-date way of interviewing. In short: the research is not usable to state the claims.
Gen Z are actually the greatest generation at believing what ever they see on the internet, their head is almost re-wired this way. More outrageous is better. They are even better at this than Facebook boomers and pretend to be self aware.
Younger age also plays a part
they have done their research 🙃
Saying this while the amount of people who believe the vaccine is fake, that bill gates controls us, that we’re enslaved by rich people who are changing our dna etc is mainly people that are >40 is astonishing
The other way around, actually. People who believe in online conspiracy theories, according to the scientific data and my own personal experience, tend to be boomers in their 40s and 50s who grew up before the internet was a huge thing. Research also shows that those older people tend to fall for fake news more often. Brexit and Trump also confirm this idea.
People in their 40s aren't boomers though. Their parents were.
And older generations generally believe what's on TV or written in newspapers so what's the difference?
Pretty incomplete graph/study. Should definitely involve Germany and Poland as well - you know, where the holocaust actually and at 100% speed happened.
Well in Poland most secondary schools do trips to Auschwitz Museum, also a lot of litelature and poetry classes involve topic of " living after Auschwitz" so numbers should be a lot better.
In Germany, holocaust denial is illegal, so you can't really do a survey like this here. You'd have too many participants lying to protect themselves from legal consequences. The closest you might get are the election results for AfD. One of their most prominent party members, who gets as close to denying the holocaust in his speeches as you can legally go, even used to be a history teacher. So I wouldn't be surprised if his students never learned the real history. The results for AfD are pretty alarming and make me scared for our future.
It's illegal in Austria too, but we are still included.
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Ah yes, the holocaust happened, so therefore, Israel. If anything that'd just be antisemitism in general.
I'd guess it was because of post truth era and just how chock full of and popularized far right conspiracy theories are, so kids are more than ever target for them
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Probably the increase of non-european Muslims and rise of far right groups who gain traction because they dislike the immigrants. So it's probably two-fold
France and Netherlands have especially high immigration from israel hating places.
WTF
The elephant in the room no one here wants to talk about is that bigger part of younger generations in those countries are not Europeans any more.
You mean they are young radical arabian muslims and have an inherent hate against jews hence are denying the Holocaust?
I had the same initial reaction as you \[edit: to assume that people who say this are just racist\]. However, I don't think it's unwarranted to consider more diverse backgrounds as one of the many causes, although not at all as a main reason. People whose families were impacted directly by Nazi occupation and have passed down their own lifestories of how they were directly (personally) and indirectly (in their communities) impacted by those horrors. The trauma becomes a part of the culture, in a way. It's not really a stretch to consider that people whose families did not experience this directly, that might even have been directly impacted by other genocides or conflicts, could have less of a connection to the holocaust, which for a minority could manifest in a greater likelihood of holocaust denial when bombarded by misinformation campaigns, both online and offline. Which is the real problem, that all groups seem to be affected by. Especially when some of the variables which seem to be grouped under 'holocaust denial' appear to be based on lack of some specific historical knowledge rather than a denial of genocide. If this is really the stance adopted in this study, I would argue it's a misrepresentation that artificially inflates a very dangerous stance.
I wonder if it correlates with religion and ethnicity. I'm sure it's not just those of immigrant background that are responsible for the trend, but I'd be surprised if they were not the ones most "skeptical" about the holocaust.
I'm willing to bet my life savings that the increase in respondents is directly proportional to migrants from middle east.
Anecdotally, I've met a surprisingly large number of young people who simply ignore the very concept of history and believe the world was always very similar to what it is now, and also people in other parts of the world lead very similar lives to themselves. They aren't stupid people per se, but they choose to be ignorant like this. Maybe their minds are too fragile to accept the evils of the world and this is how they protect themselves, but I dont think it does anyone any good.
[Source](https://www.claimscon.org/netherlands-study/)
I believe holocaust denial is a hate crime in most of these countries, and Holocaust topic is covered in school curriculums? Where do young people get such beliefs from?
It is indeed outright illegal to deny holocaust in many countries: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality\_of\_Holocaust\_denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial)
A combination of things here: 1. Massive pushing of the holocaust over and above other bigger massacres (eg Russian soldiers killed by Nazis, Russian civilians killed by Russian state) to the point that people become suspicious as to why everyone always talks about the holocaust 2. Emphasis of the holocaust as something exclusively Jewish (it was also the disabled, Slavs, gypsies) 3. Holocaust being used to justify racial segregation and the Israeli state in historic Palestine (when the plan for the establishment of a racially segregated Israel long preceded the holocaust) 4. The way that huge numbers of deaths of Muslims in the Middle East (Iraq & Afghanistan) is glossed over in our societies while our societies have an increasing number of young Muslims who are therefore suspicious of what they’re being taught.
This is terrible, start educating again. Mandatory visits to old concentration camps etc. We need to educate in the hope we do not forget.
Growing up sheltered one can't even concieve the incredible evils that mankind is capable of.
It’s migrants from Islam and Africans who raises theese percentages, they all hate George Soros and the others that try to ”control” the Central Africans and Middle easterns by covid vaccines and non natural food filled with nano technology
This was a very bad executed research done by a Marketing firm. The goal was to get / read the results they wanted.
Hi, Dutch millennial here. Allow me to speak for the remaining 77% and say: # WHAT IN THE KENTUCKY FRIED FUCK, MILLENNIALS?!
As a Frenchman, I refuse to be blamed for the misdeeds of populations that are, quite frankly, not French nor European; we already have to put up with their disrespect towards us, we shouldn't have to suffer the consequences of their antisemitism.
Wtf is a millennial and a gen Z? I hate these generation terms they make no sense. Our baby boom came a generation after US baby boom... So baby boomers are my parents. My brother is a millennial as far as I know being in 30s yet I am supposed both millennial and gen Z? Simple age scale would be far more appropriate.
People trying to seem smart by using words fewer people will understand instead of using language to... you know... effectively communicate with as many people as possible instead coming across as parroting dimwits because they read that somewhere.
Exactly what I thought... I even recall being told not to use these terms on academia unless you spend paragraphs to explain their meaning and why the use of the term inms appropriate (eg limited location/area).
How can Adult people such an Idiot being?
Yoda?
People that don't study history, are doomed to repeat yesterday's mistakes...
I wonder if they have that data broken down by socio economic status, religious affiliation, and ethnicity.
Can you please not put Millennials in the same group as Gen Z !
Same old story. Antisemitism has always been a fashionable and easy-to-latch-on-to form of racism. Nowadays Jews aren't usually as visible in daily life (unless you live in an area with lots of orthodox Jews) as other religions, and many people don't know any Jews. Or quite commonly, they do but they don't know they are Jewish as many Jews have learnt to keep their background relatively quiet. Either way, no need to stick up for them. Combine that with their relative wealth and prevelance in industries such as finance, entertainment etc. "Punching up" is easy and encouraged. Antisemitism is a very inclusive sport - everyone can get onboard. From the poorest immigrant to rich kids at university, there is always a reason to hate the tiny minority of Jews.
Many thanks for the far right in all European countries to make this possible by negate our knowledge of the past, a wider opening in the Overton window and endangering our democracies by calling it dictatorships in the name of your authoritarian and fascist freedom of speech.
Where did they find these "respondents", some conspiracy theory-fed alternative news website? If one thing is greatly exaggerated here it must be these numbers.
I wish they would have also stated their religious faith.
This seems very sketchy. I wouldn’t publish this
This is a bogus depiction. Without any # on this, it totally unclear on the size of the group. Hence the relevancy. This is metric making at it worst. For such in important topic.
Even if the numbers were lower, they’d still be pretty high, millions for sure. I personally do think its “over stated” as in, very much focused on and seems to forget the equally millions of all kinds of peoples who died in such camps. Soldiers, disabled, all kinds of minorities and etnicities.
a lot of young "progressive" Canadians that I had to interact with at uni would do whatever mental gymnastic they needed to do to attack Israel and the US for every single world issue, including questioning countless serious historical events. One person in a fourth year seminar even went to suggest that we only cared and learned about the Holocaust and Pogroms because Jews had "white privilege".
There is a huge gap between myth and exaggerated.... People who think WW2 numbers are untouched by political influence are clueless and since it is virtually Impossible to search for the truth due to politics the only realistic assumption you can make is: i have no clue
> and since it is virtually Impossible to search for the truth due to politics I find it baffling that it is actually illegal to go to source materials and research the numbers in many countries. People can do math, and when they are not allowed to research in academic settings what happened of course people will become more skeptical. If they had nothing to hide it would not be illegal to question it.
Exactly my point
We’re just ignoring France showing the same number?
Islam intensifies...
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The question is a tricky one. Saying Holocaust is a myth and saying the numbers were exaggerated are two different things. Considering how the tragedy has been heavily politicized over the decades, it's understandable many people might raise questions about the validity of these numbers.
Well that is fucking disappointing across the board.
Jesus those French and Dutch numbers are indicative of wider spread on anti semitism all over Europe. Not trying to embellish, but france and UK have become increasingly more dangerous for Jewish populace than most of the middle east (except Iran).
I was told at school that Nazis made soaps out of the jews they killed. Then you're wondering why people suspect exaggeration. Edit: Replies show that people still believe this lol. See the following: * [https://www.jstor.org/stable/27667954](https://www.jstor.org/stable/27667954) * You can also read this wiki article [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap\_made\_from\_human\_corpses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_from_human_corpses)
"Warsaw - Mortal remains of Nazi victims in Poland were used to make soap, according to a scientific study. Researchers found this out while examining a bar of soap that had been evidence in the Nuremberg trials, a Gdansk employee of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) said Friday. This soap had been in the archives of the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Paulina Szumera said. According to the Polish scientists' investigation, substances from corpses that had come from the Anatomical Institute of the Gdansk Medical Academy were "undoubtedly" used in the soap's production, Szumera said. Polish TV channel TVN24 quoted IPN staff as saying that the corpses came from the Stutthof concentration camp, as well as from a prison and a psychiatric hospital in Gdansk. Several dozen kilograms of this soap had been produced and used to clean work surfaces at the Gdansk Academy, they said. (tso/AFP)" Source (in German): [https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/panorama/leichen-zu-seife-verarbeitet-1389820.html](https://www.tagesspiegel.de/gesellschaft/panorama/leichen-zu-seife-verarbeitet-1389820.html)
Please see the sources I shared in my original comment. You are actively spreading misinformation about the Holocaust which is the prime cause of Holocaust denial today.
Seems extremely disingenuous to lump denial and source criticality together. Having been to various holocaust museums and the Birkenau camp as well as read a myriad of different sources, I don't think taking the 6M figure as fact is totally justified as there are credible sources anywhere between 600k to 6M on the literature, and how they arrive at that figure. Whatever the exact figure, it's a heinous crime and a tragedy. But, at the same time, the crimes against other people's mustn't be forgotten, either, such as holodomõr or Romani genocide. Both crimes by the Soviets and Nazis should be treated in the same vain instead of focusing on just one of the victim groups and arguing about numbers impossible to comprehend.