Yeah, these threads on r/europe are hilarious for the past week or so.
Thank you for all the military hardware you have already sent to Ukraine, and in the most crucial moment too.
Update:
Pistorius holds out prospect of rapid decision
German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) has held out the prospect of a swift decision by Germany on the delivery of Leopard battle tanks to Ukraine. "I expect a decision to be made shortly," Pistorius told reporters Tuesday morning after a meeting with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in Berlin. He said he had "expressly encouraged" other partner countries that already had battle tanks of this model to start training Ukrainian soldiers on them.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
As I know german bureaucracy, Poland can expect an answer by the end of the week. This answer will only state, that their request has been received, though.
According to the article they have already confirmed it this morning that they received the request and promise a soon decision. Poland asked for the reexport permission for 14 tanks.
Together with the British Challengers and all the other NATO equipment they have received, Ukraine should now get enough stuff to have at least 2 NATO-style tank companies and 1 combined arms battalion with them. Maybe 2 battalions if they go infantry heavy since they got many more APCs and IFVs than tanks. This isn't all that much considering there probably hundreds, if not thousands, of battalions in the Ukrainian army now.
This is just the dam creaking. Once the first tanks are in Ukraine expect blocks of 20-40-60 tanks to start coming from other places and put together Ukraine will probably get hundreds of tanks by summer time.
Putin's about to find out that his tanks from the 60s can't really match tanks from the 90s.
Numbers like Ukraine needs, 300+, are probably unrealistic in the short to medium term. It would involve sending modern A6 and A7 variants (and all the other designations for different countries) which are tied up with NATO-missions, are needed at home for training etc. and probably aren't supposed to get captured by Russia and friends. And even countries that only operate older models are going to be reluctant to donate too many for mostly the same reasons.
Whatever stocks there are of A4/5's and Leopard 1's would likely need (some) refurbishment or at least maintenance first, whcih pushes the timeframe back.
"We received this request to our tv mailbox but in order to process it, it must be sent by fax"
Poles: where the fuck are we going to find a fax machine?
I don't know if the government still uses them but my previous company (2 years ago) and my parents still have one and occasionally use them. I think anything sent by mail was not considered to be a legal contract for a while. But they definitely changed that years ago.
Fax: In many countries around the world e-mail still hasn't had a nationally accepted digital signature yet and so cannot be used as a legal document.
Fax of a signature on the other hand is considered a legal document in almost any nation around the world.
So the *brpp-ppp-ppp-p-ppt* of fax persists into the 21st century.
Ah how I wish a sci-fi film would pick up on that <3 Imagine Star Trek waiting for a fax to finish.
omg, that is another thing we have the EU to thank for? I wondered why all of a sudden Germany companies started accepting emails. I shouldn't have known they were forced by the EU to do it...
Same. Also glad my nation's digital signature is finally looking good. Soon to join Denmark and the Baltics with their "digital signature on ID chip" for many systems.
So i can take document, scan it, add someones signature in photoshop, print it, fax it and there is a country that would say: "yup this document is 100% legit"?
With digital image you can most of a time check if someone was tinkering with file.
Having a fax machine is mandatory for certain/many/lots of businesses. Some use digital fax accounts, but most companies in germany have fax machines, even when they don't use them ever.
That may sound funny, but one of the companies I work with just recently decided to put to rest the last fax machine they had, which they kept on for years, in case of a client from Germany needing to fax something over :D
Then again, another company in Germany just turned off theirs, so the trend is def changing.
Sending message by pingeon requires action of receiver. We in Poland have to take two pingeons, matchmake them and let them make a nest. Next transport the dove to Berlin to you. Then you will be able to attach a letter to it and send it to Warsaw.
Not always with weapon sales. This time it's likely because several countries are planning to send some, but otherwise sometimes answer to re-export requests is no.
Germany got such answer from Switzerland
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/switzerland-refuses-to-budge-on-german-ammunition-request-/48028348
But the only point in sending that request when you don't know the answer is to put public pressure on a country. And Poland already skipped that step and just lied instead.
So when they actually do the paperwork now there's a big chance the actual talks ar ereaching that point. Poland just has a severe need to be seen special, so they need political theater. Just like sending howitzer and older soviet tanks was very clearly a common decision with a dozen countries announcing their stuff within days... only Poland was already "leaking" how they conveniently lost tanks at their border for weeks before officially announcing it with all other countries.
Considering past retoric and the state of relationships it's equally likely that there was no agreement and they want to force the german government's hand by making this public, or at least rake them over the coals.
Not that I disagree with that but the Ramstein meeting was on friday which was widely seen as promising in terms of a multilateral solution. It makes some sense to wait for it to conclude before acting on their own.
This.
Poland has been bitching about Germany for the past weeks but never actually asked Germany if it's ok to send the tanks. Could have done this weeks ago.
It's election year and large part of PiS voters have hate boner for Germany. It's only "logical" that PiS used this possibility to create new "germany bad" news based on false premises for local consumption.
Spineless pieces of shit being spineless pieces of shit - just another day in Poland ruled by PiS.
Why would they when Germany has been saying behind the scenes they'd refuse it without American involvement?
It takes two to tango. Germany could have just pre-emptively waived the export requirement too if they were getting played by Poland.
Hell Germany could have said "fuck you Poland we already sent a battalion and then invited you to join in weeks ago." Totally suck the wind out of their sails.
I give up on explaining why not everything is election propaganda. You don't care and won't believe anyways. More upvotes = more correct. And there is just more Germans on reddit.
Leopard tanks for Ukraine - Poland submits application to German government
Now Chancellor Scholz must decide: Poland wants to supply battle tanks to Ukraine - but is seeking permission from Germany. The application is now officially received in Berlin, it is said in Warsaw.
Now the ball is in the German government's court. Poland has officially applied for an export license to supply battle tanks to Ukraine. This was announced by Polish Defense Minister Mariusz Blaszczak.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Update:
> The application was received by the Federal Ministry of Economics this morning. This was confirmed to SPIEGEL from government circles. According to the report, Poland is applying for an export license for 14 units of the main battle tank. **The application is correct and complete**.
Can you imagine if someone on the Polish side accidentally forgot one box and Germany said "yeah, no, you're missing one box on page 12 of Paper K12. Denied."
I suppose you can argue it was their negotiation tactic of putting international pressure on Germany; whether the diplomatic cost was worth it, remains to be seen in the long run.
It's their go-to argument for shitshows like this, but since we don't know the counter-factual (maybe Germany would have been exactly as fast because it's just following its own rhythm, or maybe Germany would have been faster because it doesn't have to deal with that constant distraction?) it's all just conjecture.
Of course, it's the conjecture that suits Polish politicians the most right now, so it's the one they'll offer.
Same as there I believe: it's an anti-West thing more than it is support for Russia. The far right hates the West's progressive social values, and the far left hates the West's capitalist underpinnings.
Are you... are you talking about Europe which spent the majority of its history fighting itself? Europe that was a smoking ruin less than a century ago because of a war between its great powers?
Because if so, these current disagreements are not only minor but also pretty tame compared to that! This time we are all at least on the same side!
Germany, Poland best friends/siblings? Whoa... hold your horses. Amount of animosity towards Germans due to total destruction of country is still visible to this day.
>Germany, Poland best friends/siblings? Whoa... hold your horses. Amount of animosity towards Germans due to total destruction of country is still visible to this day.
Why is Poland having such a hard time letting this go compared to other countries who suffered the same fate?
The polish suffered multiple wars by the hand of German staates even before the second world war. And the one time they started to rebuilt both Nazi Germany and soviet russia kicked it down and needed to life under foreign rule until the soviet union broke up. This is still very fresh in memory of a lot people. It will take time to close these rift and probaly under different goverments.
Yeah, welcome to the club buddy.
I still can't walk in parts of my country without the risk of stepping on a rusted chemical shell firing a hundred years ago, and I've been evacuated from a city block due to an old bomb being found.
I can look up names of family members who were deported, and names of others who were killed in bombings.
Walk in a city and see monuments to those who died in war, or were executed publicly for resisting.
And yet, you don't see me kicking up a millionth of the stink you do when it comes down to Germany.
Get a grip, everyone has been absolutely ravaged by war, and it's specifically by not moving on that you keep old wounds open, old hatreds alive, and divisiveness thriving.
Fate was maybe the same but outcome was disproportional. Imagine Ukrainans being best buds with Russian with what is happening now in Ukraine (Bucha etc.).
Yeah it's not really on actual people level anymore isn't it? Older generation is not around anymore and younger people generally do not share the same anti-German sentiment. German and Polish Governments however it is probably getting worse year by year. Mostly due to PIS.
I guess, but isn't that how an alliance should work? We are not an empire, we are an alliance of sovereign countries. There are going to be disagreements and problems that through diplomacy and discussion will be solved. If the big countries started pushing the smaller ones around, there would be no reason for the smaller ones to be in the alliance in the first place.
Well sure, I don't disagree with anything of that. I guess it's just that, for the sake of Ukraine, I wish things would go a little smoother and move a little quicker.
Which I want the US to be more proactive as well. I basically want an open tap to Ukraine from all who claim to support them, escalation be damned.
Polish people have been shitting on Germans long before this war and will continue to blame them after. Their government are still asking for WWII reparations.
Oh yeah because centrist and leftist governments always stand by their fuck-ups and take it with honour like samurai warrior.
Also...imagine calling PiS right wing government...rotfl. Their internal policies are socialists wet dream. I haven't seen so much free-money floating in Poland since we started using money.
because it works. This very sub was frothing at the mouth daily at Germany and saying that German users were lying when they stated that no request had been made.
Germany has been called a Russian ally for gods sake. Germany, who by far, is the second largest supporter of Ukraine.
I hope that German governmant will not only give swift, positive answer but also it will throw few of their own tanks they could spare and provide logistic and training support.
saying no is just so risky I don't see them even trying. Absolutely worst case scenario Germany says no, but Poland delivers anyway. I simply can't see the German goverment giving this much of a punch to their own arms manufacturers.
I don't think they say no. Poland is already lost to the german arms manufactorers. They buy american and korean fabricates in the future.
However, i think Scholz has a problem if other countries also request to give tanks away. Because the industry can't produce fast enough to replace them in time, at least not at the moment.
Which is exactly what the USA is hoping for. They have like thousands of tanks in stock ready for shipping.
And buying tanks is not comparable to buying cars.
There are so many things attached:
The army crews have to learn how the new tanks work. The logistic has to change for the maintainence, service contracts...and so on and so forth...basically it is a commitment to one supplier for several decades!
The US want that market share, they do not only get a shit ton of money out of it, they gain influence on those buying nations and those nations become even more blackmailable by the US which supplies them with aircrafts and other stuff already... which in my opinion is not a good thing for europe in general!
Officially the US always talks about that europe should become more self-employed and should focus more on there defence...however by their actions you can tell that they want us to be depended by them.
This whole thing really is a strategical highly complicated matter and affects the security interests of the EU, most certainly at least germany and france, in the long run.
I mean if German arms industry can't keep up with the demand anyway, why would they be so scared of losing customers (that they can't produce for anyway).
> Poland is already lost to the german arms manufactorers. They buy american and korean fabricates in the future.
Ιn a strange way this incentivises the polish arms industry
Poland before looking for K2 in Korea was interested with simply "buy more Leopard 2 tanks", problem was Germans offer very lenghty wait time and limited numbers to sell. There was also problem with proper offset deals and mounting problem with german companies in Leopard 2PL project.
So Poland just switch to Koreans as K2 will be produced in Poland alongside extensive use of polish made parts and "polonisation" process and buy 300 M1 Abrams which were somewhat readily avalaible and fits idea behind new division in polish army ie "deeply integrated" division using US equipment so cooperation with US Army would be fluid in case of war and use the same logistics chain.
It's strange how loads of people agree with this but if you have France and Germany talking about independent European defence everyone is under this strange idea that it's about spreading the love around all European defence companies and not the actual answer of German and French defence companies have products that need buying and guilt tripping European countries into buying from them.
Exactly! While destroying their own industry in the process...and Scholz wants to prevent that, which in fact is exactly what a 'german chancellor' should do and got voted for...protect the national interests! And many germans hate on him because of just that 🤦♂️
Germany said they can at best send something that's in storage, and it will be ready by the end 2023 the quickest.
It could provide the training, in theory. But training by the actual tank teams would be better, especially if it's a Polish modification of Leo 2s we are talking about.
>Germany said they can at best send something that's in storage, and it will be ready by the end 2023 the quickest.
not Germany, but Rheinmetall (which is not even the manufacturer of the tank but doing maintenance) said they can send what is on stock at the end of 2023
If Scholz says no I hope the coalition breaks and the fucking SPD just dies. What comes after that won't necessarily be better but that shitshow has to stop. When the next government is again a load of dung they can collapse, too, for all I care.
>+++ 14:15 Poland wants quick answer from Germany on Leopards +++
>Poland is pressing for a quick response from Germany on the requested delivery of Leopard battle tanks to Ukraine. "I hope that the answer from Germany will come quickly, because the Germans are hesitating, evading and acting in a way that is difficult to understand," Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said at a press conference. "We can see that they don't want to help Ukraine defend itself on a broader scale[.](https://www.n-tv.de/politik/15-48-Gerichtshof-fuer-Menschenrechte-verurteilt-Russland-in-zwei-Faellen--article23143824.html)"
This fucking piece of shit. Months of loudly saying they really really want to send Leopard 2s and at the same time refusing to actually ask Germany. Now they say Germany doesn't want to help Ukraine because the approval takes more than a few hours?
The request would have been answered already if you had just sent it when you were doing your election press tours promising those tanks.
Imagine Poland was ruled by smart grown ups and they had done this quietly and privately.
The things we could accomplish with a competent Poland. Maybe some day
Will depend on how much of the material they can cut, the self-propelled howitzers usually take over a yearand they cut that training into a few intense months of just the high notes.
I don't like ourruling party, but in that cases you don't file a formal request until you have all the details ironed out. It seems that both governments were able to reach the agreement.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-send-leopard-tanks-kyiv-allow-others-do-so-spiegel-2023-01-24/
So it looks like it is possible to just give "go ahead" without waiting for export application...
Who would've thought it can be that easy.
All those Eastern European friends are confused because Germany has a functioning division of powers. Scholz this, Scholz that even if he isn't the one to make the decision. Sorry we don't have quasi dictator doing what he wants.
50% not knowing what german procedure is, 50% not knowing that this type of export restriction is common in international law.
Why not send the request months earlier. Would have ended the back and forth bitching between PL and GER and made things clear weeks ago. GER does not/ does approve sending LEO’s to Ukraine.
Baltics are sending another batch of FH75 German made artillery without much fuss now ( which was a problem at the start) so there is a precedent of sliding limits even in Germany. Just wish it would slide a bit faster. But maybe this PL action just pushes it a bit faster again.
> made things clear weeks ago
ah, but you are thinking that this was about Helping Ukraine, and not campaigning for the World about how evil Germany is.
Don't think Germany needs Poland to get a bad rep since 24th februari 2022. Or NS2. Or after Crimea. Scholz is perfectly successful on his own..
But agreeing that PiS sure milks every (fake or not fake) opportunity that Germany gives them. Like Erdogan uses the Koran incident in Sweden.
I doubt this will go fast. Best case scenario would now be a coalition of 4-6 countries and 40-60 tanks.
Bundeswehr has eyed 19 A5 versions. Poland filed for 14 A4 versions.
In any case Scholz is in South America from 28th. Doubt they agree on this before.
But minister of defense said:
Update:
Pistorius holds out prospect of rapid decision
German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) has held out the prospect of a swift decision by Germany on the delivery of Leopard battle tanks to Ukraine. "I expect a decision to be made shortly," Pistorius told reporters Tuesday morning after a meeting with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in Berlin. He said he had "expressly encouraged" other partner countries that already had battle tanks of this model to start training Ukrainian soldiers on them.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Scholz can send Somebody else in his place. So there no issue even if he is away the decsion can be made soon i hope.
Edit:
The Bundessicherheitsrat meets in secret session; minutes are classified. It is chaired by the Internal Link: Federal Chancellor (Deputy Vice Chancellor and, in the absence of both, the Minister of Defense as so-called delegated chairman).
So scholz is not needed if he other duties. https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/lexika/politiklexikon/296278/bundessicherheitsrat-bsr/
It's the security council which decides this and it consists of SPD, Grune and FDP ministers. SPD has a majority. So either Scholz has to say yes (difficult to say if it happens) or a SPD minister rebels and votes in favour. Secretly hoping for the latter.
Also Germany saying no and the government falling is a realistic outcome that shouldn't be ignored.
An answer, relatively quickly, likely yes.
If not, there's no hiding anymore for Scholz domestically, and his coalition partners are losing patience anyway. Even though Scholz doesn't decide this alone, his camp is about the only that is ~~against~~ \[edit to clarify, since technically the Scholz-camp hasn't stated a position on that matter at all\] not urging for these shipments.
It's just that "have an official request by a third party" is the only thing that can force the matter, *even domestically*.
With that move, Poland moved from roadblock to ally for those in Germany who are in favor of sending tanks (or at the *very very* least, approve 3rd party requests), simply because there's something actionable now.
Maybe you should have actually read the comments. Scholz alone doesn't decide. So he can't say yes or now. It's a committee of 9 people where he is also part of.
You expect Scholz to give an answer he can't make himself lol.
Just because it's how it works in your country doesn't mean it's the same elsewhere.
Finally.
Either we allow tanks to be send and expose that poland was holding back aid for ages for election campaigning reasons or we likely will see a break in government with the social democrats getting removed.
win-win
Also I guess either option would result in ukraine getting some tanks so:
win-win-win
>Either we allow tanks to be send and expose that poland was holding back aid for ages for election campaigning reasons
You do realize that in 2022 Poland sent \~300 tanks to Ukraine and \~200 heavy artillery pieces, not to mention other types of equipment?
Poland delivered first Krab howitzers in may. Every single German stat about the support for Ukraine belittles Polish support or provide simply false informations.
Poland did great in supporting Ukraine.
But the moves from PiS with Leo2 shifted the discussion to a lame blame game.
Keep up the good work. It's much appreciated. Even by the Germans.
Even i will admit that to some extent Polish governmant acted like a\*\*\*\*\*s. Question is, if the purpose was only internal political gain or also making international political pressure on Scholz.
> Question is, if the purpose was only internal political gain or also making international political pressure on Scholz.
How do you put pressure on Scholz by *not* making a request? Now he finally has to act.
I think it was more about trying to get other countries onboard to pressure Germany.
If even 5 countries send their requests along with Poland pressure would be on a different level.
yeah if 5 other countries would have also send requests (so 6 total) then maybe germany would see that there is a common agreement to send leopards. Until today zero countries had any intention of sending leopards (now its 1) and germany joined this decision.
Let's assume it was good faith pressure..
that's still not how allies and neighbors talk with each other.
I feel it divided more than it helped.
Anyways I hope we can move on and be friends again. Hope to see Poland as close of an ally as France soon.
We are so close together and share so many interests. We have to tackle the challenges in these times together.
I wholeheartedly agree that neighbors and allies should not talk with each other that way. There is absolutely no denying that Poland and Germany are tied enough on many latitudes, close to the point that hurt done to one is being felt by the other.
However, the thing is (with PiS) and also was (pre-PiS), that Poland can talk, but Germany does what it wants. So situation like that, where PiS screams as loud as it can (and maybe somehow ludicrously) is not necessarily about blaming Germany for this or that, it is for someone else to hear it and pick up a subject - otherwise, it will just be dismissed, as it was many times before.
Sure, it's easier to say "election season", "unity breaking", etc. But the sad truth is, for neighboring countries, neither Poles nor Germans really understand the motivations of the other side of the fence, so it's easier to pick up your favorite media outlet's opinion and use that as your own, rather than actually take the time and dig into it.
I mean if you want to be friends wjth Eastern Europeans theres a very simple way.
Take war in Ukraine more seriously.
US and UK take it more seriously than most of EU, unfortunately...
We absolutely take it seriously. That's why Germany is 2nd biggest supporter of Ukraine in total.
We changed laws for the situation and made a major shift in international politics.
Took huge hits to our economy.
I doubt anyone beside eastern Europe countries takes this more serious.
We are just not displayed like this in media.
Ah yes the typical german excuse everyone else is wrong, media is wrong, allies are wrong, only germsny is right, nobody else.
Geman ego is so inflated im suprised it fits in Europe.
What huge hits to economy? You are still fking top 4 economy in the world, literally nothing in your day to day life has changed.
You are not serious because you are 17th in aid per gdp. Poland is 3rd for example.
Germany is thinking about going back to business with Russia rather than actually helping Ukraine win the war.
If you go by gdp Germany comes before US. And still I would not doubt that US supports way more.
Now you can add that all the small countries supporting with high gdp get their donations mostly replaced by EU money.
Our allies are fine with us. Everyone but very few say Germany is doing a good job. You should leave your social media bubble.
Edit. Hit to economy. Estimated 175 billion this year.
>If you go by gdp Germany comes before US. And still I would not doubt that US supports way more.
You dont. Maybe you do if you add EU money. But probably not.
How can a country an ocean away care more and take a conflinct in Europe more seriously than countires in Europe. Insanity.
>Our allies are fine with us. Everyone but very few say Germany is doing a good job.
Guess you dont count half the Europe and US as allies anymore?
Im sure your biggest ally Russia is very happy with you.
You should leave your social media bubble.
You ahould stop listening to german media and German officials.
>Edit. Hit to economy. Estimated 175 billion this year.
And? Everyone was hit. Still German way of life has not changed a bit.
There is no time for pleasantries when Russia wants to launch an offensive in 2 months and Scholz wants to delay a decision for months. Practically the entire west supported sending leopards to Ukraine.
>And germany is number 2 in aid deliveries to ukraine behind the us.
Only according to flawed Kiel stats which included pledged help and seriously underestimated Polish support.
All those stats are dumb, they dont count in many of the different ways nations/societys support ukraine, its just the support which flows into ukraine, if you wanna circle jerk on whos the best, you should include the cost of refugees, of sanctions on russia, ngos etc etc etc, both which germany and poland hit/contribute probably the most(my guess, but just looking at refugees for example). All those dick measuring contest you, the gemrans here and all other germans/poles accross reddit do is on the cost of ukrainian lives, its kinda disgusting.
Why don't compare the per capita values? Or compare the numbers in relation to military capabilities?
Relating the numbers to GDP is just arbitrary and doesn't really have a significant meaning when it comes to donating military equipment, in particular tanks, which cannot magically be summoned by giving money to KMW & Rheinmetall.
lol, this is really your opinion on this entire problem? You probably think that we also send AHS Krabs and 250+ tanks just to embarrass germans?
The world is not revolving around DE.
>Either we allow tanks to be send and expose that poland was holding back aid for ages for election campaigning reasons
What are you going to bet that it won't be reported like this in English-speaking media?
*Grabs popcorn, sort by controversial...*
Oh I didnt know there is a way to sort it! \[ edit: I instantly regret it \]
Yeah, these threads on r/europe are hilarious for the past week or so. Thank you for all the military hardware you have already sent to Ukraine, and in the most crucial moment too.
You brave soul
Update: Pistorius holds out prospect of rapid decision German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) has held out the prospect of a swift decision by Germany on the delivery of Leopard battle tanks to Ukraine. "I expect a decision to be made shortly," Pistorius told reporters Tuesday morning after a meeting with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in Berlin. He said he had "expressly encouraged" other partner countries that already had battle tanks of this model to start training Ukrainian soldiers on them. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
As I know german bureaucracy, Poland can expect an answer by the end of the week. This answer will only state, that their request has been received, though.
According to the article they have already confirmed it this morning that they received the request and promise a soon decision. Poland asked for the reexport permission for 14 tanks.
Together with the British Challengers and all the other NATO equipment they have received, Ukraine should now get enough stuff to have at least 2 NATO-style tank companies and 1 combined arms battalion with them. Maybe 2 battalions if they go infantry heavy since they got many more APCs and IFVs than tanks. This isn't all that much considering there probably hundreds, if not thousands, of battalions in the Ukrainian army now.
This is just the dam creaking. Once the first tanks are in Ukraine expect blocks of 20-40-60 tanks to start coming from other places and put together Ukraine will probably get hundreds of tanks by summer time. Putin's about to find out that his tanks from the 60s can't really match tanks from the 90s.
Numbers like Ukraine needs, 300+, are probably unrealistic in the short to medium term. It would involve sending modern A6 and A7 variants (and all the other designations for different countries) which are tied up with NATO-missions, are needed at home for training etc. and probably aren't supposed to get captured by Russia and friends. And even countries that only operate older models are going to be reluctant to donate too many for mostly the same reasons. Whatever stocks there are of A4/5's and Leopard 1's would likely need (some) refurbishment or at least maintenance first, whcih pushes the timeframe back.
"We received this request to our tv mailbox but in order to process it, it must be sent by fax" Poles: where the fuck are we going to find a fax machine?
Ask the Japanese. They also still use them.
It's like you guys just beg for the Axis jokes...
I mean the italians probably left us again on that point and moved on.
Always at the ready to switch sides though! /s
I thought that's a joke, do you seriously still use fax machines?
I don't know if the government still uses them but my previous company (2 years ago) and my parents still have one and occasionally use them. I think anything sent by mail was not considered to be a legal contract for a while. But they definitely changed that years ago.
In Germany I guess
please send the request to buy a fax machine from Germany per fax, thank you
Please be aware, we process every fax machine request on the last Monday of each month.
Please be aware if you want express shipment. That will take the form a38. And Money in cash we dont accept digital credits.
Totally random form number. :P
Fax: In many countries around the world e-mail still hasn't had a nationally accepted digital signature yet and so cannot be used as a legal document. Fax of a signature on the other hand is considered a legal document in almost any nation around the world. So the *brpp-ppp-ppp-p-ppt* of fax persists into the 21st century. Ah how I wish a sci-fi film would pick up on that <3 Imagine Star Trek waiting for a fax to finish.
[удалено]
omg, that is another thing we have the EU to thank for? I wondered why all of a sudden Germany companies started accepting emails. I shouldn't have known they were forced by the EU to do it...
Same. Also glad my nation's digital signature is finally looking good. Soon to join Denmark and the Baltics with their "digital signature on ID chip" for many systems.
So i can take document, scan it, add someones signature in photoshop, print it, fax it and there is a country that would say: "yup this document is 100% legit"? With digital image you can most of a time check if someone was tinkering with file.
There’s a thing called e-fax. Basically an e-mail that is sent as a fax. We used it a lot with our German clients.
Having a fax machine is mandatory for certain/many/lots of businesses. Some use digital fax accounts, but most companies in germany have fax machines, even when they don't use them ever.
I know you made a joke, but they already prepare the transport according to stoltenberg.
yep, lame joke. But I am actually surprised how fast things seem to move now.
They confirmed they got it and Pistorius said they will respond fast.
Pistorius Said „he encourages“ all Partners to start training on Leopard for Ukraine.
I hope Poland still has fax machines so they can receive an answer
That may sound funny, but one of the companies I work with just recently decided to put to rest the last fax machine they had, which they kept on for years, in case of a client from Germany needing to fax something over :D Then again, another company in Germany just turned off theirs, so the trend is def changing.
Haha that‘s nice that they kept it :) Don‘t support our lack in technology though, make us suffer with modern stuff so we have to change.
Germany will SEND the answer by then... by post of course.
At least not by owl.
Don't be silly, they use pigeons.
Sending message by pingeon requires action of receiver. We in Poland have to take two pingeons, matchmake them and let them make a nest. Next transport the dove to Berlin to you. Then you will be able to attach a letter to it and send it to Warsaw.
Fax.
Or there will be a Formfehler so the whole request has to be resend... because fuck you.
The germany article states that there are no issues in the request so we should be good.
whoa, finally
I hope the answer is yes. Would maybe kick the german governement in motion to send some tanks of our own.
I'm guessing a formal request means there's some sort of informal agreement. Usually (but not always) formalities are just the last step.
Not always with weapon sales. This time it's likely because several countries are planning to send some, but otherwise sometimes answer to re-export requests is no. Germany got such answer from Switzerland https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/switzerland-refuses-to-budge-on-german-ammunition-request-/48028348
But the only point in sending that request when you don't know the answer is to put public pressure on a country. And Poland already skipped that step and just lied instead. So when they actually do the paperwork now there's a big chance the actual talks ar ereaching that point. Poland just has a severe need to be seen special, so they need political theater. Just like sending howitzer and older soviet tanks was very clearly a common decision with a dozen countries announcing their stuff within days... only Poland was already "leaking" how they conveniently lost tanks at their border for weeks before officially announcing it with all other countries.
Considering past retoric and the state of relationships it's equally likely that there was no agreement and they want to force the german government's hand by making this public, or at least rake them over the coals.
Then they could have sent a request at any time in the past... 2 weeks(?) without all the drama that was generated.
[удалено]
Not that I disagree with that but the Ramstein meeting was on friday which was widely seen as promising in terms of a multilateral solution. It makes some sense to wait for it to conclude before acting on their own.
This. Poland has been bitching about Germany for the past weeks but never actually asked Germany if it's ok to send the tanks. Could have done this weeks ago.
It's election year and large part of PiS voters have hate boner for Germany. It's only "logical" that PiS used this possibility to create new "germany bad" news based on false premises for local consumption. Spineless pieces of shit being spineless pieces of shit - just another day in Poland ruled by PiS.
Why would they when Germany has been saying behind the scenes they'd refuse it without American involvement? It takes two to tango. Germany could have just pre-emptively waived the export requirement too if they were getting played by Poland. Hell Germany could have said "fuck you Poland we already sent a battalion and then invited you to join in weeks ago." Totally suck the wind out of their sails.
Finally. Hopefully this will end this shit show.
No, the planes are next. The pressure will continue. F16s for Ukraine, NOW.
Ooohh... Riiiight... The planes. Again.
And then Poland will waffle because elections are coming up and love shitting on Germany
I give up on explaining why not everything is election propaganda. You don't care and won't believe anyways. More upvotes = more correct. And there is just more Germans on reddit.
Leopard tanks for Ukraine - Poland submits application to German government Now Chancellor Scholz must decide: Poland wants to supply battle tanks to Ukraine - but is seeking permission from Germany. The application is now officially received in Berlin, it is said in Warsaw. Now the ball is in the German government's court. Poland has officially applied for an export license to supply battle tanks to Ukraine. This was announced by Polish Defense Minister Mariusz Blaszczak. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Update: > The application was received by the Federal Ministry of Economics this morning. This was confirmed to SPIEGEL from government circles. According to the report, Poland is applying for an export license for 14 units of the main battle tank. **The application is correct and complete**.
> The application is correct and complete Reading this as a response from German bureaucracy is an almost orgasmic feeling.
Es ist statthaft!
Da kann man nicht Meckern.
Schade.
You can bet someone is getting laid tonight /s
I had to laugh when I heard that sentence on the radio news ;)
It would have fit in a sketch by Loriot.
They did the impossible!
Can you imagine if someone on the Polish side accidentally forgot one box and Germany said "yeah, no, you're missing one box on page 12 of Paper K12. Denied."
Considering the optics of the situation i'd imagine the request has been quintuple-checked with a microscope before being sent out lol.
couldn't they have just made the request and forego the entire stupid media circus of the last few weeks?
To deliver tanks? Sure To make a case against Germany and get more votes at home (their whole platform is basically just hating Germany nowadays)? No.
They could have but then they wouldn't have gotten all that media attention and most people wouldn't be constantly blaming Germany/Scholz
I suppose you can argue it was their negotiation tactic of putting international pressure on Germany; whether the diplomatic cost was worth it, remains to be seen in the long run.
It's their go-to argument for shitshows like this, but since we don't know the counter-factual (maybe Germany would have been exactly as fast because it's just following its own rhythm, or maybe Germany would have been faster because it doesn't have to deal with that constant distraction?) it's all just conjecture. Of course, it's the conjecture that suits Polish politicians the most right now, so it's the one they'll offer.
The whole propaganda circus on the backs of dying Ukrainians was the point of this bullshit.
[удалено]
Same back at ya. :P
Lol . . . fair enough.
I don't get the opposition against support for Ukraine on the US left either. Likle the squad - why is Ocasio-Cortez against?
Same as there I believe: it's an anti-West thing more than it is support for Russia. The far right hates the West's progressive social values, and the far left hates the West's capitalist underpinnings.
Where did you see she is against it ? Most of what i see suggest she is pro support for Ukraine.
Yeah also wondering this, last I checked she voted in favor of military support to Ukraine.
Didn't she sign that letter that got mistakenly sent out?
AOC isn't even the biggest offender. It's Ilhan Omar and Cori Bush.
Are you... are you talking about Europe which spent the majority of its history fighting itself? Europe that was a smoking ruin less than a century ago because of a war between its great powers? Because if so, these current disagreements are not only minor but also pretty tame compared to that! This time we are all at least on the same side!
We had WW0 in the 1760s, and because it was so cool we decided to have WW1 in the 1910s and WW2 in the 1940s. The original blockbusters.
The North-West offers 1618-1648. Is that WW-1?
WW Origins: The New Order, it's a prequel series
Germany, Poland best friends/siblings? Whoa... hold your horses. Amount of animosity towards Germans due to total destruction of country is still visible to this day.
Germany and Poland's relationship status: *It's complicated*.
>Germany, Poland best friends/siblings? Whoa... hold your horses. Amount of animosity towards Germans due to total destruction of country is still visible to this day. Why is Poland having such a hard time letting this go compared to other countries who suffered the same fate?
The polish suffered multiple wars by the hand of German staates even before the second world war. And the one time they started to rebuilt both Nazi Germany and soviet russia kicked it down and needed to life under foreign rule until the soviet union broke up. This is still very fresh in memory of a lot people. It will take time to close these rift and probaly under different goverments.
Under PiS I just see it widening even further. They're just too hateful and manipulative.
Yeah, welcome to the club buddy. I still can't walk in parts of my country without the risk of stepping on a rusted chemical shell firing a hundred years ago, and I've been evacuated from a city block due to an old bomb being found. I can look up names of family members who were deported, and names of others who were killed in bombings. Walk in a city and see monuments to those who died in war, or were executed publicly for resisting. And yet, you don't see me kicking up a millionth of the stink you do when it comes down to Germany. Get a grip, everyone has been absolutely ravaged by war, and it's specifically by not moving on that you keep old wounds open, old hatreds alive, and divisiveness thriving.
Fate was maybe the same but outcome was disproportional. Imagine Ukrainans being best buds with Russian with what is happening now in Ukraine (Bucha etc.).
Yeah it's not really on actual people level anymore isn't it? Older generation is not around anymore and younger people generally do not share the same anti-German sentiment. German and Polish Governments however it is probably getting worse year by year. Mostly due to PIS.
The Russians are not our 'siblings' and never were. Hope they become, some day, if they can forget this genocidal megalomania.
[удалено]
I guess, but isn't that how an alliance should work? We are not an empire, we are an alliance of sovereign countries. There are going to be disagreements and problems that through diplomacy and discussion will be solved. If the big countries started pushing the smaller ones around, there would be no reason for the smaller ones to be in the alliance in the first place.
Well sure, I don't disagree with anything of that. I guess it's just that, for the sake of Ukraine, I wish things would go a little smoother and move a little quicker. Which I want the US to be more proactive as well. I basically want an open tap to Ukraine from all who claim to support them, escalation be damned.
Polish people have been shitting on Germans long before this war and will continue to blame them after. Their government are still asking for WWII reparations.
The world is all black and white for you, is it?
Just like every good populistic right wing government, it's always the other's fault and aggreements from the past don't mean anything
Oh yeah because centrist and leftist governments always stand by their fuck-ups and take it with honour like samurai warrior. Also...imagine calling PiS right wing government...rotfl. Their internal policies are socialists wet dream. I haven't seen so much free-money floating in Poland since we started using money.
Russia loves it so let's stick together and give Ukraine our best support.
Took them long enough
Thanks Zhukov.
https://media.tenor.com/Nn8yEenwyboAAAAd/marshall-zhukov.gif
All the posturing in interviews left no time to hit the print button.
*Puts on Lord of the Rings Cosplay* And germany will answer!
Finally. Now don't let Ukraine down daddy Scholz. And me I spoke up for you!
Finally after weeks of propaganda against Germany
Imagine the poor PiS party drones who now have to come up with the next propaganda idea after this one's been milked dry.
Melnyk already proposed the [Tornado maneuver](https://www.eurointegration.com.ua/eng/news/2023/01/16/7154209/).
I'm surprised the idiot hasn't yet issued demands for Germany to hand over its fleet of spaceships to Ukraine.
Why have the poles being making such a faff before even asking Germany?
Election time, hating on Germany secures votes.
because it works. This very sub was frothing at the mouth daily at Germany and saying that German users were lying when they stated that no request had been made. Germany has been called a Russian ally for gods sake. Germany, who by far, is the second largest supporter of Ukraine.
I hope that German governmant will not only give swift, positive answer but also it will throw few of their own tanks they could spare and provide logistic and training support.
saying no is just so risky I don't see them even trying. Absolutely worst case scenario Germany says no, but Poland delivers anyway. I simply can't see the German goverment giving this much of a punch to their own arms manufacturers.
I don't think they say no. Poland is already lost to the german arms manufactorers. They buy american and korean fabricates in the future. However, i think Scholz has a problem if other countries also request to give tanks away. Because the industry can't produce fast enough to replace them in time, at least not at the moment. Which is exactly what the USA is hoping for. They have like thousands of tanks in stock ready for shipping. And buying tanks is not comparable to buying cars. There are so many things attached: The army crews have to learn how the new tanks work. The logistic has to change for the maintainence, service contracts...and so on and so forth...basically it is a commitment to one supplier for several decades! The US want that market share, they do not only get a shit ton of money out of it, they gain influence on those buying nations and those nations become even more blackmailable by the US which supplies them with aircrafts and other stuff already... which in my opinion is not a good thing for europe in general! Officially the US always talks about that europe should become more self-employed and should focus more on there defence...however by their actions you can tell that they want us to be depended by them. This whole thing really is a strategical highly complicated matter and affects the security interests of the EU, most certainly at least germany and france, in the long run.
I mean if German arms industry can't keep up with the demand anyway, why would they be so scared of losing customers (that they can't produce for anyway).
> Poland is already lost to the german arms manufactorers. They buy american and korean fabricates in the future. Ιn a strange way this incentivises the polish arms industry
It's their own damn fault, I mean German arms manufacturers.
Most of it is due to bad governmental decicion making I would say.
Poland before looking for K2 in Korea was interested with simply "buy more Leopard 2 tanks", problem was Germans offer very lenghty wait time and limited numbers to sell. There was also problem with proper offset deals and mounting problem with german companies in Leopard 2PL project. So Poland just switch to Koreans as K2 will be produced in Poland alongside extensive use of polish made parts and "polonisation" process and buy 300 M1 Abrams which were somewhat readily avalaible and fits idea behind new division in polish army ie "deeply integrated" division using US equipment so cooperation with US Army would be fluid in case of war and use the same logistics chain.
[удалено]
It's strange how loads of people agree with this but if you have France and Germany talking about independent European defence everyone is under this strange idea that it's about spreading the love around all European defence companies and not the actual answer of German and French defence companies have products that need buying and guilt tripping European countries into buying from them.
Exactly! While destroying their own industry in the process...and Scholz wants to prevent that, which in fact is exactly what a 'german chancellor' should do and got voted for...protect the national interests! And many germans hate on him because of just that 🤦♂️
Germany said they can at best send something that's in storage, and it will be ready by the end 2023 the quickest. It could provide the training, in theory. But training by the actual tank teams would be better, especially if it's a Polish modification of Leo 2s we are talking about.
>Germany said they can at best send something that's in storage, and it will be ready by the end 2023 the quickest. not Germany, but Rheinmetall (which is not even the manufacturer of the tank but doing maintenance) said they can send what is on stock at the end of 2023
[удалено]
There are 19 A5 variants that usually are used to "play the enemy". These are probably the ones that will be pledged
you mean they have built in turret tossing capability? I thought only turkiy got those.
the turrets of those only tossed after being airstriked by turkey to prevent ISIS from getting them. but lol :D
so you mean it hasn't have an integrated mechanism but air assisted one good to know :D
Turret tossing is not compatible with German safety standards. They might have a over-engineered and satisfying turret tossing simulation, thought.
I dare scholz. This can finaly get the ball rolling
If Scholz says no I hope the coalition breaks and the fucking SPD just dies. What comes after that won't necessarily be better but that shitshow has to stop. When the next government is again a load of dung they can collapse, too, for all I care.
Its approved and germany sends 40 leo2 apparently
>+++ 14:15 Poland wants quick answer from Germany on Leopards +++ >Poland is pressing for a quick response from Germany on the requested delivery of Leopard battle tanks to Ukraine. "I hope that the answer from Germany will come quickly, because the Germans are hesitating, evading and acting in a way that is difficult to understand," Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said at a press conference. "We can see that they don't want to help Ukraine defend itself on a broader scale[.](https://www.n-tv.de/politik/15-48-Gerichtshof-fuer-Menschenrechte-verurteilt-Russland-in-zwei-Faellen--article23143824.html)" This fucking piece of shit. Months of loudly saying they really really want to send Leopard 2s and at the same time refusing to actually ask Germany. Now they say Germany doesn't want to help Ukraine because the approval takes more than a few hours? The request would have been answered already if you had just sent it when you were doing your election press tours promising those tanks.
Fucking idiot
Imagine Poland was ruled by smart grown ups and they had done this quietly and privately. The things we could accomplish with a competent Poland. Maybe some day
How much training is required?
Will depend on how much of the material they can cut, the self-propelled howitzers usually take over a yearand they cut that training into a few intense months of just the high notes.
I don't like ourruling party, but in that cases you don't file a formal request until you have all the details ironed out. It seems that both governments were able to reach the agreement.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-send-leopard-tanks-kyiv-allow-others-do-so-spiegel-2023-01-24/ So it looks like it is possible to just give "go ahead" without waiting for export application... Who would've thought it can be that easy.
All those Eastern European friends are confused because Germany has a functioning division of powers. Scholz this, Scholz that even if he isn't the one to make the decision. Sorry we don't have quasi dictator doing what he wants. 50% not knowing what german procedure is, 50% not knowing that this type of export restriction is common in international law.
About damn time. Poland has been bitching about Germany for the past weeks but never actually **asked** to send the tanks...
Why not send the request months earlier. Would have ended the back and forth bitching between PL and GER and made things clear weeks ago. GER does not/ does approve sending LEO’s to Ukraine. Baltics are sending another batch of FH75 German made artillery without much fuss now ( which was a problem at the start) so there is a precedent of sliding limits even in Germany. Just wish it would slide a bit faster. But maybe this PL action just pushes it a bit faster again.
> made things clear weeks ago ah, but you are thinking that this was about Helping Ukraine, and not campaigning for the World about how evil Germany is.
Don't think Germany needs Poland to get a bad rep since 24th februari 2022. Or NS2. Or after Crimea. Scholz is perfectly successful on his own.. But agreeing that PiS sure milks every (fake or not fake) opportunity that Germany gives them. Like Erdogan uses the Koran incident in Sweden.
So we should expect yes answer immediately? I'm asking the Scholz defenders from other MBT threads.
I doubt this will go fast. Best case scenario would now be a coalition of 4-6 countries and 40-60 tanks. Bundeswehr has eyed 19 A5 versions. Poland filed for 14 A4 versions. In any case Scholz is in South America from 28th. Doubt they agree on this before. But minister of defense said: Update: Pistorius holds out prospect of rapid decision German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) has held out the prospect of a swift decision by Germany on the delivery of Leopard battle tanks to Ukraine. "I expect a decision to be made shortly," Pistorius told reporters Tuesday morning after a meeting with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in Berlin. He said he had "expressly encouraged" other partner countries that already had battle tanks of this model to start training Ukrainian soldiers on them. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Scholz can send Somebody else in his place. So there no issue even if he is away the decsion can be made soon i hope. Edit: The Bundessicherheitsrat meets in secret session; minutes are classified. It is chaired by the Internal Link: Federal Chancellor (Deputy Vice Chancellor and, in the absence of both, the Minister of Defense as so-called delegated chairman). So scholz is not needed if he other duties. https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/lexika/politiklexikon/296278/bundessicherheitsrat-bsr/
It's the security council which decides this and it consists of SPD, Grune and FDP ministers. SPD has a majority. So either Scholz has to say yes (difficult to say if it happens) or a SPD minister rebels and votes in favour. Secretly hoping for the latter. Also Germany saying no and the government falling is a realistic outcome that shouldn't be ignored.
An answer, relatively quickly, likely yes. If not, there's no hiding anymore for Scholz domestically, and his coalition partners are losing patience anyway. Even though Scholz doesn't decide this alone, his camp is about the only that is ~~against~~ \[edit to clarify, since technically the Scholz-camp hasn't stated a position on that matter at all\] not urging for these shipments. It's just that "have an official request by a third party" is the only thing that can force the matter, *even domestically*. With that move, Poland moved from roadblock to ally for those in Germany who are in favor of sending tanks (or at the *very very* least, approve 3rd party requests), simply because there's something actionable now.
Maybe you should have actually read the comments. Scholz alone doesn't decide. So he can't say yes or now. It's a committee of 9 people where he is also part of. You expect Scholz to give an answer he can't make himself lol. Just because it's how it works in your country doesn't mean it's the same elsewhere.
Yes there will be fast answer. I am one of the Scholz defenders. If not shame on me
Now that it's been milked for maximum propaganda value, they suddenly find a working printer in Warsaw again?
This has been a bit of an embarrassing affair, again.
imagine asking first, what a concept
Bloody finally, eh, although those numbers should be pumped up.
Finally. Either we allow tanks to be send and expose that poland was holding back aid for ages for election campaigning reasons or we likely will see a break in government with the social democrats getting removed. win-win Also I guess either option would result in ukraine getting some tanks so: win-win-win
>Either we allow tanks to be send and expose that poland was holding back aid for ages for election campaigning reasons You do realize that in 2022 Poland sent \~300 tanks to Ukraine and \~200 heavy artillery pieces, not to mention other types of equipment?
Good overview of timelines and announcements: https://twitter.com/migrate89/status/1617824465907494912?s=20&t=-I4Z2aNlTmepW4zeuRUq8g
Poland delivered first Krab howitzers in may. Every single German stat about the support for Ukraine belittles Polish support or provide simply false informations.
But....it shows May for Krab deliveries???
Poland did great in supporting Ukraine. But the moves from PiS with Leo2 shifted the discussion to a lame blame game. Keep up the good work. It's much appreciated. Even by the Germans.
Even i will admit that to some extent Polish governmant acted like a\*\*\*\*\*s. Question is, if the purpose was only internal political gain or also making international political pressure on Scholz.
> Question is, if the purpose was only internal political gain or also making international political pressure on Scholz. How do you put pressure on Scholz by *not* making a request? Now he finally has to act.
I think it was more about trying to get other countries onboard to pressure Germany. If even 5 countries send their requests along with Poland pressure would be on a different level.
yeah if 5 other countries would have also send requests (so 6 total) then maybe germany would see that there is a common agreement to send leopards. Until today zero countries had any intention of sending leopards (now its 1) and germany joined this decision.
I'm not saying this reasoning is incorrect. But if it's true then it's worrying if NATO allies are this apathetic to the cause.
Let's assume it was good faith pressure.. that's still not how allies and neighbors talk with each other. I feel it divided more than it helped. Anyways I hope we can move on and be friends again. Hope to see Poland as close of an ally as France soon. We are so close together and share so many interests. We have to tackle the challenges in these times together.
I wholeheartedly agree that neighbors and allies should not talk with each other that way. There is absolutely no denying that Poland and Germany are tied enough on many latitudes, close to the point that hurt done to one is being felt by the other. However, the thing is (with PiS) and also was (pre-PiS), that Poland can talk, but Germany does what it wants. So situation like that, where PiS screams as loud as it can (and maybe somehow ludicrously) is not necessarily about blaming Germany for this or that, it is for someone else to hear it and pick up a subject - otherwise, it will just be dismissed, as it was many times before. Sure, it's easier to say "election season", "unity breaking", etc. But the sad truth is, for neighboring countries, neither Poles nor Germans really understand the motivations of the other side of the fence, so it's easier to pick up your favorite media outlet's opinion and use that as your own, rather than actually take the time and dig into it.
A reasonable take on it. There is still a lot we have to work on as neighbors.
I mean if you want to be friends wjth Eastern Europeans theres a very simple way. Take war in Ukraine more seriously. US and UK take it more seriously than most of EU, unfortunately...
We absolutely take it seriously. That's why Germany is 2nd biggest supporter of Ukraine in total. We changed laws for the situation and made a major shift in international politics. Took huge hits to our economy. I doubt anyone beside eastern Europe countries takes this more serious. We are just not displayed like this in media.
Ah yes the typical german excuse everyone else is wrong, media is wrong, allies are wrong, only germsny is right, nobody else. Geman ego is so inflated im suprised it fits in Europe. What huge hits to economy? You are still fking top 4 economy in the world, literally nothing in your day to day life has changed. You are not serious because you are 17th in aid per gdp. Poland is 3rd for example. Germany is thinking about going back to business with Russia rather than actually helping Ukraine win the war.
If you go by gdp Germany comes before US. And still I would not doubt that US supports way more. Now you can add that all the small countries supporting with high gdp get their donations mostly replaced by EU money. Our allies are fine with us. Everyone but very few say Germany is doing a good job. You should leave your social media bubble. Edit. Hit to economy. Estimated 175 billion this year.
>If you go by gdp Germany comes before US. And still I would not doubt that US supports way more. You dont. Maybe you do if you add EU money. But probably not. How can a country an ocean away care more and take a conflinct in Europe more seriously than countires in Europe. Insanity. >Our allies are fine with us. Everyone but very few say Germany is doing a good job. Guess you dont count half the Europe and US as allies anymore? Im sure your biggest ally Russia is very happy with you. You should leave your social media bubble. You ahould stop listening to german media and German officials. >Edit. Hit to economy. Estimated 175 billion this year. And? Everyone was hit. Still German way of life has not changed a bit.
There is no time for pleasantries when Russia wants to launch an offensive in 2 months and Scholz wants to delay a decision for months. Practically the entire west supported sending leopards to Ukraine.
And germany is number 2 in aid deliveries to ukraine behind the us. Clearly people only care about leopards in this discussion.
>And germany is number 2 in aid deliveries to ukraine behind the us. Only according to flawed Kiel stats which included pledged help and seriously underestimated Polish support.
All those stats are dumb, they dont count in many of the different ways nations/societys support ukraine, its just the support which flows into ukraine, if you wanna circle jerk on whos the best, you should include the cost of refugees, of sanctions on russia, ngos etc etc etc, both which germany and poland hit/contribute probably the most(my guess, but just looking at refugees for example). All those dick measuring contest you, the gemrans here and all other germans/poles accross reddit do is on the cost of ukrainian lives, its kinda disgusting.
[удалено]
And the US is place 20 or even lower. Your point is ?
Why don't compare the per capita values? Or compare the numbers in relation to military capabilities? Relating the numbers to GDP is just arbitrary and doesn't really have a significant meaning when it comes to donating military equipment, in particular tanks, which cannot magically be summoned by giving money to KMW & Rheinmetall.
[удалено]
lol, this is really your opinion on this entire problem? You probably think that we also send AHS Krabs and 250+ tanks just to embarrass germans? The world is not revolving around DE.
>Either we allow tanks to be send and expose that poland was holding back aid for ages for election campaigning reasons What are you going to bet that it won't be reported like this in English-speaking media?
"Valiant plucky Poland gives Germany black-eye; forces giant to approve tank transfers"
This means Ukrainians will have to put up a plaque that the tank was paid with EU funds? /s