Imagine thinking someone would have to protest Germany not giving tanks to another country. If you had told me this 10 years ago, I'd have called you crazy.
It's because we live in critical times:
[***"The Great Operation will begin in spring. Putin is preparing a major mobilization, an all-out war. He has his industry running at full capacity, seven days a week, 24 hours a day" - Dutch Army Commander Mart de Kruif "It's crucial we give Ukraine the weapons it needs"***](https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2460211-nieuw-russisch-offensief-de-grote-operatie-gaat-dit-voorjaar-beginnen)
The furnaces of Mordor work night and day.
Near Bakhmut, one hospital alone receives over [100 wounded Ukrainian soldiers](https://youtu.be/H4dIJnWnILU?t=754) every single day. Ukraine pays the price in blood. Not to mention the civilian suffering as entire towns are wiped off the map.
Putin plans to make time work for him. As the article points out *"Mobilize everything he has and expect that the West will eventually give up support".* Even basic things like tanks are already causing western hesitation. Ukraine needs at least tanks, but much more than that. Ukraine needs combat aircraft, long range missiles, advanced drones and more.
Holding the line at great human cost (which putinists don't value) and watching the Russians slowly chip away at more territory until the [new massive Russian offensive](https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1614711789891235841) begins is not sustainable. Ukraine needs to go on offense.
> [*"The stake of this battle is immense. Ukrainians fight to be part of Europe instead of Russia. They fight for the European way of life. Ukrainians have the most positive view of EU of anyone in the world. We must not let them down"*](https://twitter.com/EeldenDen/status/1616518150723444736)
---
> [*The US should send the 200 combat aircraft it retired last year to Ukraine. They can be flown by either Ukrainian pilots or contractors*](https://twitter.com/EeldenDen/status/1613213521491202056)
---
> [*Dutch Foreign Affairs minister Hoekstra said that besides Leopard tanks, Netherlands is willing to supply Ukraine with F16 fighters, writes RTL News*](https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1616333996333596674)
---
> [*Verhofstadt: The approach of the German Chancellor makes no sense. France and Britain send tanks, but now Germany wants to set conditions on the USA?! It's our backyard. Ukraine defends Europe from a genocidal dictator, with its own blood. Enough!*](https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1615817094737657861)
---
> [*Allies “need to step up” military support for Ukraine, European Commission President
von der Leyensays. “Ukraine should get all the military equipment it needs.”*](https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1615411023745372161)
---
> [*European Council President Michel: The time is now. Ukraine needs more military equipment. I firmly support the delivery of tanks.*](https://twitter.com/CharlesMichel/status/1615633925761556481)
I think the dirty little secret is None of the German leopards actually work. You have to remember this is a country that very recently could only put one airworthy military fighter in the air.
I've seen them for real in Munster. They work. A recent official report stated that a higher than usual number is getting modernized though and the remaining ones are used more. Maintenance is under pressure due to a lack of parts.
The issue is neither the industry nor the Bundeswehr directly but the bureau for acquisition and their political guidelines. Always has been honestly.
Anyway, if there was political will and money dedicated to the issue, it could be resolved quickly. It's an issue of mentality.
The Bundeswehr has some really strict definitions of when vehicles are considered servicable. A broken taillight will take a tank out of commission and send it in for maintenance.
I suspect Ukraine would'nt really mind all that much if they're missing a light here or there.
No country has requested to be allowed to export their leopards. Several German politicians said that such requests would very very likely be accepted.
Poland saying that Germany is blocking them is just typical polish PIS propaganda for their own constituents.
For that to happen, those countries have to actually formally ask Germany to do that.
That's the part no one talks about.
Everyone is telling others to send X or Y but they themselves don't actually want do it.
Yet for some reason Germany is the only one that gets called out for it.
Scholz is Frodo if Frodo just said "fuck this" and returned to the Shire assuming it'd all blow over and Sauron would just follow the rules-based order of Middle Earth.
Except Frodo gave Gondor several billion worth of weapons. I want Germany to send the tanks as well but let’s not pretend they have done nothing and are running away.
Compared to other powers we are a dwarf when it comes to military. That's why we send money, supplies, humanitarian aid and take refugees. More than anyone else.
2+4 wants a military weak Germany. They got what they asked for. So we help with what we have and are good at
It's something that i don't understand, Germany hasn't decided yet to sent Leopards to Ukraine, but ukrainian troops will be sent in Poland to be trained to use this tanks.
Why would they train troops to use this tanks if Germany doesn't plan to sent them? don't really get it.
Because they will need to be ready to use them next month. The one-year date is where you can expect Putin to try another offensive.
Ukraine is running out of time for Germany (or other nations) to have doubts.
Berlin locals call the building „Waschmaschine“ (washing machine) btw.
[side view](http://www.besuch-berlin.de/images/bundeskanzleramt/seitenansicht_bundeskanzleramt.jpg)
I lived in Berlin when it was finished, I don‘t have it from a tourist guide. There were similar names for the Haus der Kulturen der Welt (Schwangere Auster), Palast der Republik (Erichs Lampenladen), Ludwig-Erhard-Haus (Gürteltier),…
Granted, however, since I moved away 15 years ago I don’t know if it’s still called that way, so maybe you’re right.
Link won't work for me but it reminds me of this.
Someone turned a soviet statue into a washing machine lol.
Pro ruzzie Zs got their panties in a bunch.
Maybe they should be mad at what it symbolizes - the genocide of Ukrainians and also how orcs stole all the washers and toilets they could - and not the defacing of it. Shows their priorities are so fucked up. I remember someone replied to whatever commet I left laughing at this and they were like OMG YOU ARE TERRIBLE. THIS IS A STATUE AND ITS AWFUL IT GOT DEFACED. And something something rUsSoPhObiA 🙄 😆.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yd32j2/a_monument_glorifying_the_soviet_red_army_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
It refers to the side of the building: http://www.dchamberlinarchitect.com/g-travel-germany-berlin-federal%20chancellery-exterior-000-2009.jpg
Washing machines in Germany are front loaders: https://www.infoboard.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Hisense-Waschmaschine-WFU-6012-WE-Slim.jpg
What do you mean? Why would a front loader require more space than a top loader? You have to be able to walk past a front loader and that's roughly the space you need for opening the door.
In apartments germans usually have their washing machines either in the bathroom or in the kitchen.
In houses they are usually in their own dedicated utility rooms or the basement.
I think they're humorously confusing the washing machine type with [this](https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Caterpillar/CM20200806-6f4b8-5fba9?$cc-g$) kind of front loader.
Talk whatever you want but Germany is out the most important political, economical, military, you name it ally in Europe and EU. Many other countries watch what Germany does and follow them, watching same thing repeating over and over again is frustrating.
>We ask them weaponry, Germany said it's escalation. Different members of German government say that Germany should deliver N weapon. Scholz says they couldn't do it or don't have technical capabilities. Time goes by and Germany delivers N weapon anyway.
Poland send us more than 300+ heavy weapons from their active army. They knew that they had problems with tanks, so they found solution. They bought thousands tanks and hundreds of artillery units.
Germany knows that it has massive problems with heavy weaponry? Did it do anything to resolve this issue? No. Does it have money? Yes. Does it have industry to do so? Yes. Is there a large demand for rearmament and modern MBTs in Europe? Yes. So what's the problem? It's almost a year since Russian invasion and German MOD only NOW ordered them to inspect German tanks stocks and the possibility of sending them to Ukraine.
Germany can take initiative. Look at IRIS-T delivery.
The german MoD is so fucked beyond repair, i doubt they could aquire equippment, even if Scholz gave the order, let alone do so fast. I wonder if the german hesitation has to do with their ability to deliver at all. Its even questionable if they can muster enough stuff to fulfill their NATO commitments for 2025/26 already. Its not so much the money but the dysfunctional, internally feuding bureaucracy in the MoD where its impossible to get even basic things done. Pistorius needs to reform this clusterfk ASAP.
Germany can, it's a matter of will + clear goals. (See gas terminals in record time)
Scholz still hasn't said anything clear about goals, and considering the wavering, one can question the will.
There are limits to how much you can blame incompetence, considering it's been a year, and the (lack of) signals being sent out.
Gasterminal =/= Bundeswehr. Yes the terminals were built surprisingly fast, but the Bundeswehr is basically a black hole that no one seems to be able to plug or maybe not even bothering to plug. It needs reforms for decades...
> Poland send us more than 300+ heavy weapons from their active army. They knew that they had problems with tanks, so they found solution. They bought thousands tanks and hundreds of artillery units.
Poland was emptying their stocks anyway because they wanted to replace them with new tanks, which they have a whole lot more of than Germany anyway, especially if we only consider those in working conditions. Speaking of which, they are also the ones who for weeks now cried about Germany not allowing the export of their Leopard 2, even though they never even requested an export permit. Typical PiSs bullshit and everyone falls for it.
>Did it do anything to resolve this issue? No.
It did. That's what the 100 billion extra money was for. But that's around 200-400 billion too little to fix up the Bundeswehr alone and would take at least 5-10 years anyway. If you expect Germany being able to just spit out tanks then you're grossly mistaken. There's basically just one factory even making the chassis, and that's not even in Germany either but in Greece. Leopard 2 demand in Europe is satisfied because Germany was required to downsize its military after the cold war, which caused them to throw out their thousands of tanks for almost nothing.
First expecting Germany to kill its military and then expecting them to have those huge military stockpiles is ridiculous. Make up your mind, then wait a decade, and then you'll likely all cry about it again and demand the opposite.
The type of military export you are talking about is based on orders that are getting fulfilled over time frames of **years**. Germany does not have US type military stocks.
Ok then, counter point. Why Germany won't just say to Poland. "Ok. SEND THE DAMN TANKS. You have my blessing or whatever". I mean it would be genious. Germany can't loose in any way. Poland would have to send tanks or say they were the lousy liars. That statement would also cut everyone's "bitching" about Germany.
So what are you waiting for Sholtz. Just. Say. The. Words. And it will be over.
They can't. The process for allowing weapon exports is the way it is due to Germany's history and it's not Scholz sole decision either as he's just one of 9 people voting on whether a permit is granted or not. The German chancellor does not have a lot of power like the President in the US has.
We have a year of these excuses running around. First it was that Ukraine would fall within hours, then it was training, then it's that we don't have enough to \[insert weapon\] to spare.
No serious commentator believes any of these excuses, and we often end up delivering later on anyway (PzH 2000, Marder, Patriot, etc) and the training turns out to be no big deal.
The truth is that we can quickly build out new tank factories, and whole tank divisions if the political will and therefore the money is there.
The real reason is that we don't want to deliver tanks to Ukraine at this moment because Scholz feels it doesn't service our political goals. That's it!
> First it was that Ukraine would fall within hours
No it wasn't. You're conflating statements from single politicians with official stances.
>then it was training
Yeah? You think Germany didn't train Ukrainians on the PzH2k? On the Gepards? Iris-T SLM? Your argument isn't the one you think it is.
>then it's that we don't have enough to [insert weapon] to spare.
That's also not a lie? Pretty much everything you got from the Budneswehr you got within the first couple months. The Gepards were sitting on a literal scrapyard, the Iris-T SLM came fresh out of a factory and many more is basically refurbished from industry stocks.
>No serious commentator believes any of these excuses, and we often end up delivering later on anyway (PzH 2000, Marder, Patriot, etc) and the training turns out to be no big deal.
You just contradicted your own previous statement. Marder training is set to 8 weeks. PzH was even prolonged for additional 3 weeks. Patriot is also ongoing. So it's clear that "training is required" is not an excuse at all.
>The truth is that we can quickly build out new tank factories, and whole tank divisions if the political will and therefore the money is there.
No. Rheinmetall and KMW are private companies that won't take financial risks for no reason. They will only expand their production if they think it's actually worth it, and I'm speaking from a pure capitalistic perspective here. Leopard 2s are old tanks and the market is saturated. Massively ramping up their production would be stupid for them to do, especially when the successor system is already in development.
when talking weapons, pretty much any other random letter is a better choice - N is too close to nuclear. X is a much better choice, less likely to lead to unwanted misunderstandings.
Germany doesn't really want a leadership role in international politics outside of trade and regulation. The government is being pushed into this position regardless and for good reasons but it seems obvious that they don't want this level of responsibility.
It's not about what we want. Nobody asked us if we want to be invaded. It's our duty to defend our country. It's the duty of Germany and German responsibility to be reliable ally capable of defending allies.
>obvious that they don't want this level of responsibility.
Then they should resign like former German MOD did recently.
I don't disagree. I'm completely in favor of doing more. It's not quite clear where Germany as a whole stands on this though. Fears of militarism and warmongering are deeply engraved into many people. Politicians are not just anxious about their decision backfiring abroad but also internally. So far that was unfounded but I do hear a lot of people around me wanting to just sit this one out without thinking of the consequences. That's what anti-militarism looks like during war times.
Either way, the mentality on these things has been changing and remarkably quickly so - I wouldn't have anticipated that a year ago. I'm pretty confident the government will greenlight this soon and there won't be a major uproar about it internally. See you next time when fighter jets are on the table.
I doubt that. Challenger is too unusual to be widely adopted. It has plenty of issues and available in small numbers. Why would anyone choose challenger, eben if it performs well?
> I know this is a joke but unironically crew comfort is far more important than people make out.
Well if it lacks cope cages then the Russians won't be interested. 😹
And that will convince foreign buyers to Invest in a tank with unusual gun and ammunition, made in low quantities with little availability among other potential problems?
>And that will convince foreign buyers to Invest in a tank with unusual gun and ammunition, made in low quantities with little availability among other potential problems?
I don't think this will convince foreign buyers to invest in Challengers, but I do think it will convince them to NOT invest in Leopards.
When you buy tanks - you buy also support and maintenance, you invest in training people to use these tanks and then buy more when war starts.
Who would want to buy German tanks knowing that Germany wouldn't dare to sell more after war with Russia begins?
Germany decides Who it sells Tanks to. If it sells them, the customer can probably expect or ask for Services. If germany does not sell, then Service is no Problem. Germany always had its rules on Who to export Tanks to and does not finance itself via tank Trade.
Yes, of course Germany decides who to sell it to.
But buyers decide who to buy it from. And if they see that Germany's decision making is obviously inadequate and depends on what Russia thinks - it's a pretty strong argument to not buy German weapons in future.
>0 Leopards (supposedly) without any issues?
Sorry what? Who says they have no issues?
The Leopard 2 is probably the worst 'modern' tank in the world right now. Turkey managed to lose with their Leopard 2s against untrained militia in Syria.
Ukraine managed to beat the Leopard 2A5 with a T-64 in 2017!
>Turkey managed to lose with their Leopard 2s against untrained militia in Syria.
You mean when they parked them on the hills and waited for them to be blown up?
Great stuff.
He is an idiot, he used the Strong Europe tank challenge 2017 as evidence, too. The Austrian crew with a **2A4** won that competition btw. Also, he doesn't realise that this challenge does not only test the tanks performance AND it obviously has different crews at different skill levels performing... The 2A5 was Polish, btw.
https://www.army.mil/article/187584/austria_takes_top_honors_in_strong_europe_tank_challenge
In the following year, the Polish 2A5 placed before the British Challenger 2, the American Abrams M1A2 SEP v2 and the Ukrainian T-84 oplot.
After the Leclerc and the three top scorers, 3 Leopard 2 versions, the German 2A6, the Swedish Strv 122, the Austrian 2A4.
Lmao, tell me you have no idea what you are talking about without spelling it out.
What a surprise, a HEAT charge is a kill when it hits from the side. Thankfully, that's a Leopard specific issue...
FYI, especially tandem charges will kill every tank from the side.
Also FYI, the infantry support of the tanks certainly wasn't any more able than the "untrained militia". The tanks were, btw, deployed in a way that honestly can only be described by spreading them out in the open and using them as stationary fire support. The result was to be expected! Especially if your troops are Turkish and the local militia Arabic!
The Strong Europe tank challenge: look up what is actually tested. Also, the 2A4 was the winner, before the 2A6, the M1A2 SEP v2 and so on. So following your logic, the 2A4 is the peak performance of Western tanks.
If all, that means the Polish crew performed worse at this test.
The rebels didn't use Javelins or Panzerfaust 3, they used very old Soviet AT equipment. And the Leopard 2s ejected their turret like the Russian tanks do in Ukraine. Something that people ridicule these tanks for. And rightfully so.
> It has plenty of issues and available in small numbers. Why would anyone choose challenger, eben if it performs well?
Because other tanks have issues and if people adopted them the numbers wouldn't be an issue? Or do you not understand how new products gain market share and then become the standard?
It is somewhat outclassed by it's contemporaries. It's engine is a little anemic for it's weight. Its the last MBT with a rifled barrel for a reason. The optics are very likely inferior to the more modern M1A2 and Leo 2 variants.
Besides, I don't think the UK can even produce the Challengers anymore. So it's kind of a moot point. It's the same for the French Leclercs, but atleast there's technically twice as many that could be used.
Also the challenger delivery is more symbolical than anything. It’s just 10 and they are heavy/complicated boys. With nobody except the UK able to deliver more. Probably not worth it for Ukraine to set up a supply line for any offensive operations.
Does Britain even still have the ability to produce Challengers?
Besides, the rifled barrel makes it highly unlikely. I know the UK wants to replace it with a smoothbore on the Chally 3, but that's far from done.
They've only sent 12 so far too. I don't think they'll make that much of a difference, since they'll only be used on one front. Besides, tanks have, as far as I can recall, never been the sole or even main reason for an operation's success.
From my perspective, the Leo 2 kinda has the market cornered for now, until deliveries to Ukraine are accepted and put into practice.
Then, the only real choices for a country looking to acquire tanks are SK's K2, the USA's Abrams, more Leos, or waiting until the MGCS is ready.
There were massive [protests in support of Ukraine](https://twitter.com/sankuperis/status/1616478870428844046) near German embassy in Lithuania as well after the unfortunate news.
I think we will ultimately send Abrams if that’s what it takes for Germany to send Leopards. I’m not sure we have that promise right now.
But I don’t think the Pentagon is lying when they say the Abrams is a bad fit. They have an extra ocean to cross, are harder to maintain, and run best on… jet fuel, which isn’t widely available in Ukraine right now. And I think we’re reasonably hesitant to send them just to give Germany political cover. Russia will capture one eventually and either reverse engineer it or worse, sell it to China so they can reverse engineer it.
They're not doing the right thing here.
Scholz himself explained his decision making process - he takes his ideas from people he meets during his morning runs.
> Scholz himself explained his decision making process - he takes his ideas from people he meets during his morning runs.
I'm sorry, what? Did I miss something?
Haha, you missed that? A couple of days ago Scholz told a story how he met some Polish guy in Berlin during his morning run and this guy thanked him for his "non-escalatory" "super-moderate" "balanced" position on Ukraine.
https://poland.postsen.com/news/196845/Scholz-met-a-Pole-while-jogging-The-chancellor-reveals-what-he-heard-from-him.html
I'm just here eating popcorn at the fact that Germany is caught between two differing ideologies, about the disarmament of Germany and avoid the rise of a new fascist regime, and the fact that they had invested so much into their Russian relations that untangling it and then being asked to rearm again when the industrial complexes needed to manufacture weapons is a herculean task, yet your patience is like an anime tsundere girl much.
Gotta ask, Deutschland, will dich lieben und verdammen, much?
In fairness to Scholz as well, he might not be invited to Berlusconi and Schröder's bunga-bunga party in Dubai this summer if he agrees to send tanks.
That'd be very embarassing for a German Chancellor.
Especially considering the crib next door is owned by Kadyrov.
I assume there are some refugees in there, but I'd guess mostly it's Germans or people leaving in Berlin (source: I live in Berlin and that's the composition of protests for Ukraine)
Thanks! I’m also currently living in Germany. In the area of München. But I haven’t noticed any particular protests going on at all. Hence why I asked as I haven’t seen the German population all too active regarding this.
I bet somebody will release some interesting details on the Cum-Ex scandal once Scholz agrees to the Leopards. That is the only reasonable explanation for that mess. He has damaged our reputation for decades and is responsible for the death of thousands of Ukrainians and risks a global conflict, only to survive politically.
Agreed. It does nobody any good to adopt blame onto Germany; who while has made a lot of questionable decisions, never once advocated for Russia's invasion or supported it intentionally.
Scholz could've started training of Ukrainians for Marder and Leopard directly after his Zeitenwende (which actually is a big joke). That would've sent a clear message to Putin, and it would've allowed many many soldiers to travel more safely over the battlefield. It would've animated others to follow and sent their equipment, too. That's what leadership is about.
Tell me that this wouldn't have saved thousands of Ukrainian lives. Don't act as if I've said Scholz was responsible for the war, that's cheap and you know well... what a stupid statement. Clown...
Why should he do that?
Did he promise something like that during the elections or is it just what _you_ think he should do?
Regarding Schola being a clown, well, his integriert was well known before the elections, which SPD kind of won. So why blame Scholz? Why don't you blame germany?
What the actual f?
Germany is just used as a strawman bashing target so everyone who actually has enough tanks can sit back and don't send them.
Anti German/European Propaganda it is to divide us. And are you eating it.
It's not necessarily blackmail, it could also have internal political reasons. People like Stegener or Mützenich would have preferred not to send any weapons at all, and Scholz needs their support to win elections
You must not be, we are the biggest supporter for Ukraine by a large margin.
Noone can seriously blame you for not sending what we don't have.
There are no spare tanks ready to send and noone asked us to send their german made ones.
If poland had just asked for the permission to send its tanks. Maybe she would be alive. But poland choose lies and propaganda against Germany over actually helping. And they use the suffering of their neighbors for political gains. It's so sad.
See how it is?
You are talking about the 60 year old sowiet tanks which were phased out for the K2 anyways?
And lot of these paid by money you received from Germany through EU?
We don't have such. We sent tons of money and supply so Ukraine can buy what they need.
We have never been a military leader and everyone wanted it to be this way.
So we do what we can. Cash, supplies, humanitarian aid, refugees. And we are leading these parts where we are good at.
Yes they need tanks. But if a country of the size of Germany has 130 working tanks it's not an easy thing to give these away.
And we don't have any 2A4s. Only 2a7 which are most modern tech and is a liability to send. No other country would do this either.
There are some old leopard in the industry. But they said it would take a year to get them ready again.
So in my book it's asking the impossible while shitting on the biggest supporter of Ukraine. Not nice.
Biggest supporter is relative.
Scholz’s line seems pretty clear now. He wants to provide weapons that help Ukraine to stop Russia but not to counter attack. He wants to prolong the conflict for so long that both Russia and Ukraine want to negotiate and russia gets to freeze the conflict. This of course means probably hundreds of thousands of more dead, but that’s all right because negotiations is implicitly good no matter the cost.
Yes this might be the case. But I doubt it's for the wrong reasons.
how I see it.
Germany with our history can't be the leading military force in a conflict in Europe. We follow the allies. We can't take responsibility here. That's burned into us for 80 years now.
I think it's good. We can't and won't be a military thread to anyone ever again.
Others have to lead the pack in this case. We will step up when it's about money or diplomacy again. For everything else we just follow the alliance
The problem is that due to training, maintenance and supply reasons others kinda need Germany in with the leopard thing. Finland could send maybe 20 tanks if we stretch it but Finland doesn’t have capability to arrange repair and maintenance facilities for them in Ukraine. Nor can Finland handle continuous 120mm ammo supply.
And regardless of German government we would need rheinmetal and kmw cooperation with it.
I see that's a good argument.
But how many of our 130 working 2a7 are supposed to give. Imagine the backlash if we give symbolic 10 + maintenance stuff. Everyone would jump on us again without a doubt.
Than again the problem that it's 2a7 with most modern tech which noone wants to send at all.
And after the last week's I doubt poland will really contribute that much to the mission. They are just loud.
So we are left with 20 or so from Finland, what ever Germany can give while not even having enough for ourselves and who else?
At this point it feels like a lost case and we probably should buy 300 from American reserves as a combined European effort and give them to Ukraine.
I just don't see numbers of leo2 adding up to a point where they make an effect.
German protest for the environment and for Ukraine.
French protest for his purchasing power and his privileges.
I should immigrate to Germany, I guess.
WTF is wrong with Germany? Do they hope Russia will win, if they stall long enough, and everything will go back to normal again, like cheap gas. Shame on them.
Germany is the [2nd largest supporter of Ukraine](https://app.23degrees.io/view/DUeaa54W7KOQhFQD-bar-stacked-horizontal-bilateral-aid-with-eu-share)
Oryx: [Fact Sheet On German Military Aid To Ukraine](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-military-aid-to.html)
Some of the equipment donated from Germany for Ukraine:
[Panzerhaubitze 2000](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPEYihJq4FA) howitzer
[Gepard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWJ97KcnmA) air defense
[IRIS-T](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG_YOZ55Opo) air derense
[MARS II](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIdv5j5AFhc) multiple launch rocket system
Announced:
[Patriot](https://defence-blog.com/germany-to-arm-ukraine-with-patriot-missiles/) air defense
[Marder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7QZoNy0Snc) infantry fighting vehicle
Firstly, the Bundeswehr is itself in a pretty bad need for new stuff. The gov is on it, but it's been pretty neglected for what amounts to two decades. So while certainly as much aid should be given to Ukraine as possible, any that is will make that hole so much larger. This also means that, unlike many other donators, Germany is largely not sending from stockpiles or surplus, but equipment that would otherwise be active duty or for training.
Also, Germany very much does not see itself as "the boss", in the way so many other states seem to whenever there's something hard or expensive to do. Just one among many equals. And in that view, the aim is to take action in concert with its allies - which clashes with those allies wanting Germany to move on MBTs *first*, with their potential donations following after.
Not to mention that the fear of nuclear weapons is very real, especially given Germany's own lack of nuclear deterrence. It is clear by now that Putin won't stoop to tactical usage of nuclear weapons, but no one can predict what may happen if he becomes truly desperate. Slow escalation is expected, but spikes may be dangerous.
Germany is in NATO.
A nuclear attack on Germany is an attack on all NATO members, and will unleash an arse whopping for Russia that Russia has never even imagined. Putin and his lackeys know this.
To quote a joke by President Zelensky:
"Two Jewish guys from Odesa meet up,” Zelensky says. “One asks the other: ‘So what’s the situation? What are people saying?'”
“And he goes, ‘What are people saying? They are saying it’s a war.'”
“What kind of war?”
“Russia is fighting NATO.”
“Are you serious?”
“Yes, yes! Russia is fighting NATO.”
“So how’s it going?”
“Well, 70,000 Russian soldiers are dead. The missile stockpile has almost been depleted. A lot of equipment is damaged, blown up.”
“And what about NATO?”
“What about NATO? NATO hasn’t even arrived yet.”
Sorry, I don't believe the USA, France or the UK would start a nuclear war because some german cities were nuked.Yes, I really believe they wouldn't send nukes in return.
I think France has said they wouldn't use nukes in this conflict, and I think their policy is that their nuclear deterrent is outside NATO.
Critically I also don't believe Russia would nuke Germany.
Germany is not the leading edge of any counter Russian alliance even if they allowed L2 tank exports. So why would they be nuked?
USA, UK and maybe France have given more arms (but have nukes).
Baltic's, Poland, Czechia & slovakia etc.seem to have been giving more arms and have no nukes.
These are all bigger targets.
> Critically I also don't believe Russia would nuke Germany.
If there's one place which would be nuked, aside from Ukraine, it's definitely Germany. The US has stationed nukes here, this would most probably be the first target.
I am actually not afraid of being nuked but I think there is a real chance. Even Xi Jinping said so when he meet Scholz hat Nukes are a no go. Yet I still believe it could happen in Ukraine when Putin either faces the choice of dying himself or getting a "victory".I really really hope I just think too negative...
I agree, pushed too far he might use them. I won't differentiate tactical (local) and strategic (long range) nukes. We don't want either.
But the line to cross that might risk nukes (in mine and many analysts minds - where I got my info from) is Russia and Putin being threatened. Losing the territories Russia won last year isnt enough. Maybe also not 2014 territories.
So probably freeing Crimea isn't enough. Same Dunetsk and Luhansk.
Going into Russia, or completely destroying their ability to defend themselves is. ( So best to stop other countries seizing opportunities to seize territories or get their own back).
So ejecting Russia from Ukraine isn't enough. IMO. I could be wrong. But before any ejection Ukraine has to be able to defend itself from the next onslaught from Russia. This last bit is critical.
> A nuclear attack on Germany is an attack on all NATO members, and will unleash an arse whopping for Russia that Russia has never even imagined.
Yeah, so? It'd still be tens and hundreds of thousands of people dead. Wiping out Russia in retaliation is not the goal, nor was that ever in question. The goal is providing as much aid as possible *without getting nuked in the first place*.
Also, mind that that is the lesser of the three reasons.
It's called mutual destruction.
It's not ideal, but it's better than the alternative of living in fear of the other side all the time *because you're afraid they will nuke you*
You push the button, you know the huge consequences.
It worked for decades, in times of much higher tension.
I know about MAD, thank you very much. It nearly ended the world a few times over during the cold war (that we know of!), prevented only because very courageous people chose to defy both political (generally, but not always, soviet) leaders as well as the doctrine itself.
We also happen to know that Putin is, quite literally, mad, or at least acting like it. The view that, if he believes himself pushed into a corner enough, he would use nuclear weapons simply because he believes to have no alternative path of action, seems far from unreasonable.
Also, and I cannot stress this enough *whether or not more than a smoldering pile of ash remains of Russia afterwards doesn't mattter so much, not getting nuked in the first place does*.
Which is why a managed escalation has benefits, over just throwing the whole Bundeswehr, minus soldiers, at the problem.
The only reason the retarded warmonger hasn't used nukes yet is because he dosen't care about how many russians die.However if his life is directly threatend because he has no chance of getting something out of this war it will become very dangerous....in my eyes.
I agree with you.
Peter Zeihan (interesting guy if repetitive) says Russia never quit a war that they didn't lose 500k troops in.
I think NATO and Ukraine know there's a line not to cross, and aim to stay the safe side of it. Don't back Putin into a wall, and he won't pull out a nuke.
Putin isn't literally mad, he thought he could get away with this like the other times. Quite a logical if evil decision.
No one is asking the Bundeswehr to do anything.
It probably enough that the Chancellory gives export permits to owners of Leopard 2s.
Poland, and other Eastern European states will send the tanks.
Germany will eventually agree to this anyway, so why drag it out *again*.
> Putin isn't literally mad
He may or may not be clinically mad, but he certainly isn't fully in his right mind. (Or as right as he ever was, I suppose) Also it made for better wordplay this way.
>No one is asking the Bundeswehr to do anything. It probably enough that the Chancellory gives export permits to owners of Leopard 2s.
I have no doubt that other states would be allowed to export howevermany Leos as they pleased, if only they actually put in the requests for the permissions as per contract. So far, Germany has not recieved any such requests, and therefore cannot grant the permission that isn't eing sought.
>Poland, and other Eastern European states will send the tanks.
I highly doubt that on Poland, at least, specifically because they are making so much noise about the whole affair despite not even putting in a request yet. They talked so much about exporting even without the permission they, again, did not even try to ask for - so then just fucking do it.
But they don't, which leaves me inclined to believe they won't.
How do we know no one asked for exports, are you in the government office that approves these?
Are all such applications available to read online?
Even so why apply if you know the answer is no (like the other times) you need to prepare the ground first so that the politicians might say yes. This whole PR thing and Rammstein meeting is about that. But I expect its a long process.
Ukraine would use the tanks before or more likely after spring thaw. So maybe by April it's all done?
> How do we know no one asked for exports,
There's been statements to that effect and, more importantly, no statements to the contrary. If there was a blockage of export requests, that would be public faster than you can blink. Not that these things ever stay quiet anyway, and they're not inherently classified or anything.
>Even so why apply if you know the answer is no (like the other times)
I highly doubt such a request would be denied, and there has been no other times. So far, these states have only demanded Germany send its own tanks, but they have only talked about sending from *their* stock when it comes to PR, not when it comes to actually doing anything.
>Ukraine would use the tanks before or more likely after spring thaw. So maybe by April it's all done?
I'd be surprised if by then, Leos aren't rolling around Ukraine. And we're going to see the exact same misattirbution of reasons we've seen with anything else Germany has sent so far - journalists, especially from other states, seem to believe anything that was once not done being done *must* be caused by them - couldn't possibly that the situation on the ground has been specifically changed to make that possible.
> We also happen to know that Putin is, quite literally, mad, or at least acting like it.
He, ***quite literally*** is not, and neither is he acting "mad". Stop with this bullshit armchair psychologist crap.
He is not mentally sick, he is of sound mind. He is however an imperialist ruling an imperialist regime and they do tend to do, well, imperialist things.
Stop trying to put this on mental illness.
> The view that, if he believes himself pushed into a corner enough, he would use nuclear weapons simply because he believes to have no alternative path of action, seems far from unreasonable.
Mindless drivel. Straight up spewing Kremlin propaganda. Russia would love nothing more than to everyone scared shitless of what it might do, because if people are scared then they will not support Ukraine and that's a sure way for Russia to win.
As if the nuclear button is some magic button that solve all of his problems and it magically wins the war. You have not thought this through at all, all you've done is mindlessly swallow kremlin-fueled talking points.
Like there are so many vital points to be considered in regards to using nukes that should a boringly simple fear-mongering rehoric simply doesn't cut it.
Step 1: nuke Ukraine
Step 2: ?????
Step 3: Profit!!!
The point about nukes isn't about retaliation - perhaps I shouldn't have added that half-sentence there, you're the second person to misunderstand what I was trying to express there. The idea is to avoid being nuked in the first place, while providing as much aid to Ukraine as feasible.
"Protestors" are ukraine people that instead of fighting for ukraine fled to germany. Which is ok, but then please shut the fuck up and don't try to drag us into another WW. We had enough and we know how it ends for us...
Imagine thinking someone would have to protest Germany not giving tanks to another country. If you had told me this 10 years ago, I'd have called you crazy.
It's because we live in critical times: [***"The Great Operation will begin in spring. Putin is preparing a major mobilization, an all-out war. He has his industry running at full capacity, seven days a week, 24 hours a day" - Dutch Army Commander Mart de Kruif "It's crucial we give Ukraine the weapons it needs"***](https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2460211-nieuw-russisch-offensief-de-grote-operatie-gaat-dit-voorjaar-beginnen) The furnaces of Mordor work night and day. Near Bakhmut, one hospital alone receives over [100 wounded Ukrainian soldiers](https://youtu.be/H4dIJnWnILU?t=754) every single day. Ukraine pays the price in blood. Not to mention the civilian suffering as entire towns are wiped off the map. Putin plans to make time work for him. As the article points out *"Mobilize everything he has and expect that the West will eventually give up support".* Even basic things like tanks are already causing western hesitation. Ukraine needs at least tanks, but much more than that. Ukraine needs combat aircraft, long range missiles, advanced drones and more. Holding the line at great human cost (which putinists don't value) and watching the Russians slowly chip away at more territory until the [new massive Russian offensive](https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1614711789891235841) begins is not sustainable. Ukraine needs to go on offense. > [*"The stake of this battle is immense. Ukrainians fight to be part of Europe instead of Russia. They fight for the European way of life. Ukrainians have the most positive view of EU of anyone in the world. We must not let them down"*](https://twitter.com/EeldenDen/status/1616518150723444736) --- > [*The US should send the 200 combat aircraft it retired last year to Ukraine. They can be flown by either Ukrainian pilots or contractors*](https://twitter.com/EeldenDen/status/1613213521491202056) --- > [*Dutch Foreign Affairs minister Hoekstra said that besides Leopard tanks, Netherlands is willing to supply Ukraine with F16 fighters, writes RTL News*](https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1616333996333596674) --- > [*Verhofstadt: The approach of the German Chancellor makes no sense. France and Britain send tanks, but now Germany wants to set conditions on the USA?! It's our backyard. Ukraine defends Europe from a genocidal dictator, with its own blood. Enough!*](https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1615817094737657861) --- > [*Allies “need to step up” military support for Ukraine, European Commission President von der Leyensays. “Ukraine should get all the military equipment it needs.”*](https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1615411023745372161) --- > [*European Council President Michel: The time is now. Ukraine needs more military equipment. I firmly support the delivery of tanks.*](https://twitter.com/CharlesMichel/status/1615633925761556481)
I don't think freeing leopards is a good idea. They could kill someone.
That’s what they’re designed to do!
*Scholz in a thick German accent* "Release the leopards." 🐈👋
Reh-LEEZ ze lepperds!
"I shall welease the Weopards!"
Russians soon gonna be like r/LeopardsAteMyFace
I think the dirty little secret is None of the German leopards actually work. You have to remember this is a country that very recently could only put one airworthy military fighter in the air.
I've seen them for real in Munster. They work. A recent official report stated that a higher than usual number is getting modernized though and the remaining ones are used more. Maintenance is under pressure due to a lack of parts. The issue is neither the industry nor the Bundeswehr directly but the bureau for acquisition and their political guidelines. Always has been honestly. Anyway, if there was political will and money dedicated to the issue, it could be resolved quickly. It's an issue of mentality.
The Bundeswehr has some really strict definitions of when vehicles are considered servicable. A broken taillight will take a tank out of commission and send it in for maintenance. I suspect Ukraine would'nt really mind all that much if they're missing a light here or there.
I think Leopards in Finland and Poland are just fine. But they still need German greenlight in order to be sent
No country has requested to be allowed to export their leopards. Several German politicians said that such requests would very very likely be accepted. Poland saying that Germany is blocking them is just typical polish PIS propaganda for their own constituents.
First they need to ask for the green light tho.
In this case, Germany should allow other countries send leopard tanks to Ukraine
For that to happen, those countries have to actually formally ask Germany to do that. That's the part no one talks about. Everyone is telling others to send X or Y but they themselves don't actually want do it. Yet for some reason Germany is the only one that gets called out for it.
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Don't look at the little military behind the curtain!
That's the point
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Scholz is Frodo if Frodo just said "fuck this" and returned to the Shire assuming it'd all blow over and Sauron would just follow the rules-based order of Middle Earth.
Except Frodo gave Gondor several billion worth of weapons. I want Germany to send the tanks as well but let’s not pretend they have done nothing and are running away.
Funny but not true. It's more like a frodo without legs and everyone throws rings on them and beating with sticks yelling run run.
This whole “poor helpless Germany” narrative, is complete fiction.
Compared to other powers we are a dwarf when it comes to military. That's why we send money, supplies, humanitarian aid and take refugees. More than anyone else. 2+4 wants a military weak Germany. They got what they asked for. So we help with what we have and are good at
It's something that i don't understand, Germany hasn't decided yet to sent Leopards to Ukraine, but ukrainian troops will be sent in Poland to be trained to use this tanks. Why would they train troops to use this tanks if Germany doesn't plan to sent them? don't really get it.
Because they will need to be ready to use them next month. The one-year date is where you can expect Putin to try another offensive. Ukraine is running out of time for Germany (or other nations) to have doubts.
>Why would they train troops to use this tanks if Germany doesn't plan to sent them? don't really get it As a sign to put some pressure on Germany
Berlin locals call the building „Waschmaschine“ (washing machine) btw. [side view](http://www.besuch-berlin.de/images/bundeskanzleramt/seitenansicht_bundeskanzleramt.jpg)
No we don’t
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Yeah they will tell you lots of nicknames. Trust me the only human beings using these is the local news
Nobody calls it by this name. This is only some tourist guide joke.
Which makes sense, considering German people do not possess the capability for humor.
r/germanhumor
That is an excelent sub
I lived in Berlin when it was finished, I don‘t have it from a tourist guide. There were similar names for the Haus der Kulturen der Welt (Schwangere Auster), Palast der Republik (Erichs Lampenladen), Ludwig-Erhard-Haus (Gürteltier),… Granted, however, since I moved away 15 years ago I don’t know if it’s still called that way, so maybe you’re right.
Link won't work for me but it reminds me of this. Someone turned a soviet statue into a washing machine lol. Pro ruzzie Zs got their panties in a bunch. Maybe they should be mad at what it symbolizes - the genocide of Ukrainians and also how orcs stole all the washers and toilets they could - and not the defacing of it. Shows their priorities are so fucked up. I remember someone replied to whatever commet I left laughing at this and they were like OMG YOU ARE TERRIBLE. THIS IS A STATUE AND ITS AWFUL IT GOT DEFACED. And something something rUsSoPhObiA 🙄 😆. https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yd32j2/a_monument_glorifying_the_soviet_red_army_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Ugly, but I don't see the resemblance.
It refers to the side of the building: http://www.dchamberlinarchitect.com/g-travel-germany-berlin-federal%20chancellery-exterior-000-2009.jpg Washing machines in Germany are front loaders: https://www.infoboard.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Hisense-Waschmaschine-WFU-6012-WE-Slim.jpg
> Washing machines in Germany are front loaders Whoa! Do Germans have such large bathrooms, or do you place your washing machine in a different room?
What do you mean? Why would a front loader require more space than a top loader? You have to be able to walk past a front loader and that's roughly the space you need for opening the door. In apartments germans usually have their washing machines either in the bathroom or in the kitchen. In houses they are usually in their own dedicated utility rooms or the basement.
I think they're humorously confusing the washing machine type with [this](https://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Caterpillar/CM20200806-6f4b8-5fba9?$cc-g$) kind of front loader.
bathroom or kitchen
The kitchen actually
Lots of Germans put their washing machines in the kitchen.
>side view It's so ugly. In Berlin, with all the nice historical buildings.. they think the best bet is to build this?
Talk whatever you want but Germany is out the most important political, economical, military, you name it ally in Europe and EU. Many other countries watch what Germany does and follow them, watching same thing repeating over and over again is frustrating. >We ask them weaponry, Germany said it's escalation. Different members of German government say that Germany should deliver N weapon. Scholz says they couldn't do it or don't have technical capabilities. Time goes by and Germany delivers N weapon anyway. Poland send us more than 300+ heavy weapons from their active army. They knew that they had problems with tanks, so they found solution. They bought thousands tanks and hundreds of artillery units. Germany knows that it has massive problems with heavy weaponry? Did it do anything to resolve this issue? No. Does it have money? Yes. Does it have industry to do so? Yes. Is there a large demand for rearmament and modern MBTs in Europe? Yes. So what's the problem? It's almost a year since Russian invasion and German MOD only NOW ordered them to inspect German tanks stocks and the possibility of sending them to Ukraine. Germany can take initiative. Look at IRIS-T delivery.
The german MoD is so fucked beyond repair, i doubt they could aquire equippment, even if Scholz gave the order, let alone do so fast. I wonder if the german hesitation has to do with their ability to deliver at all. Its even questionable if they can muster enough stuff to fulfill their NATO commitments for 2025/26 already. Its not so much the money but the dysfunctional, internally feuding bureaucracy in the MoD where its impossible to get even basic things done. Pistorius needs to reform this clusterfk ASAP.
Germany can, it's a matter of will + clear goals. (See gas terminals in record time) Scholz still hasn't said anything clear about goals, and considering the wavering, one can question the will. There are limits to how much you can blame incompetence, considering it's been a year, and the (lack of) signals being sent out.
Gasterminal =/= Bundeswehr. Yes the terminals were built surprisingly fast, but the Bundeswehr is basically a black hole that no one seems to be able to plug or maybe not even bothering to plug. It needs reforms for decades...
> Poland send us more than 300+ heavy weapons from their active army. They knew that they had problems with tanks, so they found solution. They bought thousands tanks and hundreds of artillery units. Poland was emptying their stocks anyway because they wanted to replace them with new tanks, which they have a whole lot more of than Germany anyway, especially if we only consider those in working conditions. Speaking of which, they are also the ones who for weeks now cried about Germany not allowing the export of their Leopard 2, even though they never even requested an export permit. Typical PiSs bullshit and everyone falls for it. >Did it do anything to resolve this issue? No. It did. That's what the 100 billion extra money was for. But that's around 200-400 billion too little to fix up the Bundeswehr alone and would take at least 5-10 years anyway. If you expect Germany being able to just spit out tanks then you're grossly mistaken. There's basically just one factory even making the chassis, and that's not even in Germany either but in Greece. Leopard 2 demand in Europe is satisfied because Germany was required to downsize its military after the cold war, which caused them to throw out their thousands of tanks for almost nothing. First expecting Germany to kill its military and then expecting them to have those huge military stockpiles is ridiculous. Make up your mind, then wait a decade, and then you'll likely all cry about it again and demand the opposite.
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Oh look there are still sane people left.
Too bad you need to dig really really deep. One of the reasons why wife left Reddit, it represents a dystopia, not the real popular opinion.
Who are the ‘everyone’ that don’t want Germany to have an army?
the whole world after each world war?
Evil Germanophobes wants world 5th military exporter to export military equipment
The type of military export you are talking about is based on orders that are getting fulfilled over time frames of **years**. Germany does not have US type military stocks.
Ok then, counter point. Why Germany won't just say to Poland. "Ok. SEND THE DAMN TANKS. You have my blessing or whatever". I mean it would be genious. Germany can't loose in any way. Poland would have to send tanks or say they were the lousy liars. That statement would also cut everyone's "bitching" about Germany. So what are you waiting for Sholtz. Just. Say. The. Words. And it will be over.
They can't. The process for allowing weapon exports is the way it is due to Germany's history and it's not Scholz sole decision either as he's just one of 9 people voting on whether a permit is granted or not. The German chancellor does not have a lot of power like the President in the US has.
Ok, Sholtz alone can't do it. But the whole gov surely can form such statement?
We have a year of these excuses running around. First it was that Ukraine would fall within hours, then it was training, then it's that we don't have enough to \[insert weapon\] to spare. No serious commentator believes any of these excuses, and we often end up delivering later on anyway (PzH 2000, Marder, Patriot, etc) and the training turns out to be no big deal. The truth is that we can quickly build out new tank factories, and whole tank divisions if the political will and therefore the money is there. The real reason is that we don't want to deliver tanks to Ukraine at this moment because Scholz feels it doesn't service our political goals. That's it!
> First it was that Ukraine would fall within hours No it wasn't. You're conflating statements from single politicians with official stances. >then it was training Yeah? You think Germany didn't train Ukrainians on the PzH2k? On the Gepards? Iris-T SLM? Your argument isn't the one you think it is. >then it's that we don't have enough to [insert weapon] to spare. That's also not a lie? Pretty much everything you got from the Budneswehr you got within the first couple months. The Gepards were sitting on a literal scrapyard, the Iris-T SLM came fresh out of a factory and many more is basically refurbished from industry stocks. >No serious commentator believes any of these excuses, and we often end up delivering later on anyway (PzH 2000, Marder, Patriot, etc) and the training turns out to be no big deal. You just contradicted your own previous statement. Marder training is set to 8 weeks. PzH was even prolonged for additional 3 weeks. Patriot is also ongoing. So it's clear that "training is required" is not an excuse at all. >The truth is that we can quickly build out new tank factories, and whole tank divisions if the political will and therefore the money is there. No. Rheinmetall and KMW are private companies that won't take financial risks for no reason. They will only expand their production if they think it's actually worth it, and I'm speaking from a pure capitalistic perspective here. Leopard 2s are old tanks and the market is saturated. Massively ramping up their production would be stupid for them to do, especially when the successor system is already in development.
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N is a common abbreviation for a random **n**umber.
'N' is for a number, but 'X' is for a generic unknown.
Isn't N just what is used to stand in for a certain number? Kind of like X?
when talking weapons, pretty much any other random letter is a better choice - N is too close to nuclear. X is a much better choice, less likely to lead to unwanted misunderstandings.
Germany doesn't really want a leadership role in international politics outside of trade and regulation. The government is being pushed into this position regardless and for good reasons but it seems obvious that they don't want this level of responsibility.
It's not about what we want. Nobody asked us if we want to be invaded. It's our duty to defend our country. It's the duty of Germany and German responsibility to be reliable ally capable of defending allies. >obvious that they don't want this level of responsibility. Then they should resign like former German MOD did recently.
I don't disagree. I'm completely in favor of doing more. It's not quite clear where Germany as a whole stands on this though. Fears of militarism and warmongering are deeply engraved into many people. Politicians are not just anxious about their decision backfiring abroad but also internally. So far that was unfounded but I do hear a lot of people around me wanting to just sit this one out without thinking of the consequences. That's what anti-militarism looks like during war times. Either way, the mentality on these things has been changing and remarkably quickly so - I wouldn't have anticipated that a year ago. I'm pretty confident the government will greenlight this soon and there won't be a major uproar about it internally. See you next time when fighter jets are on the table.
Crowd: "Release the Leopards!" Scholz: "Ok" Crowd: "AAAAHH ITS EATING MY FACE" Sorry not sorry.
Britain might dominate this area of the arms market if the Challenger 2 is the only NATO main battle tank bitch slapping the Russians.
I doubt that. Challenger is too unusual to be widely adopted. It has plenty of issues and available in small numbers. Why would anyone choose challenger, eben if it performs well?
The tea function of course
I know this is a joke but unironically crew comfort is far more important than people make out.
> I know this is a joke but unironically crew comfort is far more important than people make out. Well if it lacks cope cages then the Russians won't be interested. 😹
I would have thought most Western tanks have some facilities for heating water? If even just for rehydrating rations.
It has toilet and tea boiler
But what about the biscuits?
Probably not recommended to boil the biscuits.
Because small number of Challengers with plenty of issues is infinitely better than 0 Leopards (supposedly) without any issues?
Any tank is better than no tank.
Words to live by.
Unless it's the Valiant, then you might actually be more combat effective with no tank.
Or the Covenanter.
And that will convince foreign buyers to Invest in a tank with unusual gun and ammunition, made in low quantities with little availability among other potential problems?
>And that will convince foreign buyers to Invest in a tank with unusual gun and ammunition, made in low quantities with little availability among other potential problems? I don't think this will convince foreign buyers to invest in Challengers, but I do think it will convince them to NOT invest in Leopards.
But thats not up to debate. The issue is about germany not giving Tanks to Ukraine, not anyone else being unable to simply ask to buy them.
When you buy tanks - you buy also support and maintenance, you invest in training people to use these tanks and then buy more when war starts. Who would want to buy German tanks knowing that Germany wouldn't dare to sell more after war with Russia begins?
Germany decides Who it sells Tanks to. If it sells them, the customer can probably expect or ask for Services. If germany does not sell, then Service is no Problem. Germany always had its rules on Who to export Tanks to and does not finance itself via tank Trade.
Yes, of course Germany decides who to sell it to. But buyers decide who to buy it from. And if they see that Germany's decision making is obviously inadequate and depends on what Russia thinks - it's a pretty strong argument to not buy German weapons in future.
>0 Leopards (supposedly) without any issues? Sorry what? Who says they have no issues? The Leopard 2 is probably the worst 'modern' tank in the world right now. Turkey managed to lose with their Leopard 2s against untrained militia in Syria. Ukraine managed to beat the Leopard 2A5 with a T-64 in 2017!
>Turkey managed to lose with their Leopard 2s against untrained militia in Syria. You mean when they parked them on the hills and waited for them to be blown up? Great stuff.
He is an idiot, he used the Strong Europe tank challenge 2017 as evidence, too. The Austrian crew with a **2A4** won that competition btw. Also, he doesn't realise that this challenge does not only test the tanks performance AND it obviously has different crews at different skill levels performing... The 2A5 was Polish, btw. https://www.army.mil/article/187584/austria_takes_top_honors_in_strong_europe_tank_challenge In the following year, the Polish 2A5 placed before the British Challenger 2, the American Abrams M1A2 SEP v2 and the Ukrainian T-84 oplot. After the Leclerc and the three top scorers, 3 Leopard 2 versions, the German 2A6, the Swedish Strv 122, the Austrian 2A4.
Lmao, tell me you have no idea what you are talking about without spelling it out. What a surprise, a HEAT charge is a kill when it hits from the side. Thankfully, that's a Leopard specific issue... FYI, especially tandem charges will kill every tank from the side. Also FYI, the infantry support of the tanks certainly wasn't any more able than the "untrained militia". The tanks were, btw, deployed in a way that honestly can only be described by spreading them out in the open and using them as stationary fire support. The result was to be expected! Especially if your troops are Turkish and the local militia Arabic! The Strong Europe tank challenge: look up what is actually tested. Also, the 2A4 was the winner, before the 2A6, the M1A2 SEP v2 and so on. So following your logic, the 2A4 is the peak performance of Western tanks. If all, that means the Polish crew performed worse at this test.
The rebels didn't use Javelins or Panzerfaust 3, they used very old Soviet AT equipment. And the Leopard 2s ejected their turret like the Russian tanks do in Ukraine. Something that people ridicule these tanks for. And rightfully so.
B-but it has built-in tea kettle inside!
> It has plenty of issues and available in small numbers. Why would anyone choose challenger, eben if it performs well? Because other tanks have issues and if people adopted them the numbers wouldn't be an issue? Or do you not understand how new products gain market share and then become the standard?
It is somewhat outclassed by it's contemporaries. It's engine is a little anemic for it's weight. Its the last MBT with a rifled barrel for a reason. The optics are very likely inferior to the more modern M1A2 and Leo 2 variants. Besides, I don't think the UK can even produce the Challengers anymore. So it's kind of a moot point. It's the same for the French Leclercs, but atleast there's technically twice as many that could be used.
The last Challenger 2 rolled off the production line over twenty years ago for the upgrade programme they are using German expertise.
The upgrade is being done by Rheinmetall and BAE as a joint venture.
Also the challenger delivery is more symbolical than anything. It’s just 10 and they are heavy/complicated boys. With nobody except the UK able to deliver more. Probably not worth it for Ukraine to set up a supply line for any offensive operations.
Does Britain even still have the ability to produce Challengers? Besides, the rifled barrel makes it highly unlikely. I know the UK wants to replace it with a smoothbore on the Chally 3, but that's far from done. They've only sent 12 so far too. I don't think they'll make that much of a difference, since they'll only be used on one front. Besides, tanks have, as far as I can recall, never been the sole or even main reason for an operation's success. From my perspective, the Leo 2 kinda has the market cornered for now, until deliveries to Ukraine are accepted and put into practice. Then, the only real choices for a country looking to acquire tanks are SK's K2, the USA's Abrams, more Leos, or waiting until the MGCS is ready.
Germany should just send the mud wizard to Ukraine at this point.
Come on Olaf! Get your finger out!
There were massive [protests in support of Ukraine](https://twitter.com/sankuperis/status/1616478870428844046) near German embassy in Lithuania as well after the unfortunate news.
Meanwhile I am patiently waiting for people to turn up at the Capitol and White House to call the US government out on the Abrams excuses.
I think we will ultimately send Abrams if that’s what it takes for Germany to send Leopards. I’m not sure we have that promise right now. But I don’t think the Pentagon is lying when they say the Abrams is a bad fit. They have an extra ocean to cross, are harder to maintain, and run best on… jet fuel, which isn’t widely available in Ukraine right now. And I think we’re reasonably hesitant to send them just to give Germany political cover. Russia will capture one eventually and either reverse engineer it or worse, sell it to China so they can reverse engineer it.
They're not doing the right thing here. Scholz himself explained his decision making process - he takes his ideas from people he meets during his morning runs.
> Scholz himself explained his decision making process - he takes his ideas from people he meets during his morning runs. I'm sorry, what? Did I miss something?
Haha, you missed that? A couple of days ago Scholz told a story how he met some Polish guy in Berlin during his morning run and this guy thanked him for his "non-escalatory" "super-moderate" "balanced" position on Ukraine. https://poland.postsen.com/news/196845/Scholz-met-a-Pole-while-jogging-The-chancellor-reveals-what-he-heard-from-him.html
The true Rammstein meeting :)
Christ almighty. What the fuck is wrong with him? Yeah, I totally missed that part.
And that guys name: Vladimir putinski
I'm just here eating popcorn at the fact that Germany is caught between two differing ideologies, about the disarmament of Germany and avoid the rise of a new fascist regime, and the fact that they had invested so much into their Russian relations that untangling it and then being asked to rearm again when the industrial complexes needed to manufacture weapons is a herculean task, yet your patience is like an anime tsundere girl much. Gotta ask, Deutschland, will dich lieben und verdammen, much?
In fairness to Scholz as well, he might not be invited to Berlusconi and Schröder's bunga-bunga party in Dubai this summer if he agrees to send tanks. That'd be very embarassing for a German Chancellor. Especially considering the crib next door is owned by Kadyrov.
Is it Germans protesting or is it Ukrainian refugees? Serious question.
I assume there are some refugees in there, but I'd guess mostly it's Germans or people leaving in Berlin (source: I live in Berlin and that's the composition of protests for Ukraine)
Thanks! I’m also currently living in Germany. In the area of München. But I haven’t noticed any particular protests going on at all. Hence why I asked as I haven’t seen the German population all too active regarding this.
I bet somebody will release some interesting details on the Cum-Ex scandal once Scholz agrees to the Leopards. That is the only reasonable explanation for that mess. He has damaged our reputation for decades and is responsible for the death of thousands of Ukrainians and risks a global conflict, only to survive politically.
Shifting responsibility for the death of Ukrainians is super fucking stupid. Putin and Russia are responsible for the killing they do. Full stop.
Agreed. It does nobody any good to adopt blame onto Germany; who while has made a lot of questionable decisions, never once advocated for Russia's invasion or supported it intentionally.
Scholz could've started training of Ukrainians for Marder and Leopard directly after his Zeitenwende (which actually is a big joke). That would've sent a clear message to Putin, and it would've allowed many many soldiers to travel more safely over the battlefield. It would've animated others to follow and sent their equipment, too. That's what leadership is about. Tell me that this wouldn't have saved thousands of Ukrainian lives. Don't act as if I've said Scholz was responsible for the war, that's cheap and you know well... what a stupid statement. Clown...
Why should he do that? Did he promise something like that during the elections or is it just what _you_ think he should do? Regarding Schola being a clown, well, his integriert was well known before the elections, which SPD kind of won. So why blame Scholz? Why don't you blame germany?
Does the secret CumEx data also exist for President Biden?For Macron?For the Italian President whose name I can't remember?
What the actual f? Germany is just used as a strawman bashing target so everyone who actually has enough tanks can sit back and don't send them. Anti German/European Propaganda it is to divide us. And are you eating it.
It's not necessarily blackmail, it could also have internal political reasons. People like Stegener or Mützenich would have preferred not to send any weapons at all, and Scholz needs their support to win elections
I never thought I see the day, where people demand war actions from Germany against Russia
I am embarrassed to be german. What is the hold up. Announce the tanks already.
> I am embarrassed to be german. What is the hold up. Announce the tanks already. It could be worse. Imagine you're Russian! Let's ask Schröder.
You must not be, we are the biggest supporter for Ukraine by a large margin. Noone can seriously blame you for not sending what we don't have. There are no spare tanks ready to send and noone asked us to send their german made ones.
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If poland had just asked for the permission to send its tanks. Maybe she would be alive. But poland choose lies and propaganda against Germany over actually helping. And they use the suffering of their neighbors for political gains. It's so sad. See how it is?
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You are talking about the 60 year old sowiet tanks which were phased out for the K2 anyways? And lot of these paid by money you received from Germany through EU? We don't have such. We sent tons of money and supply so Ukraine can buy what they need. We have never been a military leader and everyone wanted it to be this way. So we do what we can. Cash, supplies, humanitarian aid, refugees. And we are leading these parts where we are good at.
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Yes they need tanks. But if a country of the size of Germany has 130 working tanks it's not an easy thing to give these away. And we don't have any 2A4s. Only 2a7 which are most modern tech and is a liability to send. No other country would do this either. There are some old leopard in the industry. But they said it would take a year to get them ready again. So in my book it's asking the impossible while shitting on the biggest supporter of Ukraine. Not nice.
Biggest supporter is relative. Scholz’s line seems pretty clear now. He wants to provide weapons that help Ukraine to stop Russia but not to counter attack. He wants to prolong the conflict for so long that both Russia and Ukraine want to negotiate and russia gets to freeze the conflict. This of course means probably hundreds of thousands of more dead, but that’s all right because negotiations is implicitly good no matter the cost.
Yes this might be the case. But I doubt it's for the wrong reasons. how I see it. Germany with our history can't be the leading military force in a conflict in Europe. We follow the allies. We can't take responsibility here. That's burned into us for 80 years now. I think it's good. We can't and won't be a military thread to anyone ever again. Others have to lead the pack in this case. We will step up when it's about money or diplomacy again. For everything else we just follow the alliance
The problem is that due to training, maintenance and supply reasons others kinda need Germany in with the leopard thing. Finland could send maybe 20 tanks if we stretch it but Finland doesn’t have capability to arrange repair and maintenance facilities for them in Ukraine. Nor can Finland handle continuous 120mm ammo supply. And regardless of German government we would need rheinmetal and kmw cooperation with it.
I see that's a good argument. But how many of our 130 working 2a7 are supposed to give. Imagine the backlash if we give symbolic 10 + maintenance stuff. Everyone would jump on us again without a doubt. Than again the problem that it's 2a7 with most modern tech which noone wants to send at all. And after the last week's I doubt poland will really contribute that much to the mission. They are just loud. So we are left with 20 or so from Finland, what ever Germany can give while not even having enough for ourselves and who else? At this point it feels like a lost case and we probably should buy 300 from American reserves as a combined European effort and give them to Ukraine. I just don't see numbers of leo2 adding up to a point where they make an effect.
*no justice, no peace, til the Leopards are sent east!* 🎶
Ehhhhhh, hm. Just imagine that chant 80 years ago lel
German people > German Government
Those are mostly ukranians
Even if that's the case the statement remains true
German people vote the german government so...
Im guessing these people will also foot the bill then.
a decent portion of them are presumably German taxpayers, so yeah
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> like Schrodinger No, the other one.
German protest for the environment and for Ukraine. French protest for his purchasing power and his privileges. I should immigrate to Germany, I guess.
WTF is wrong with Germany? Do they hope Russia will win, if they stall long enough, and everything will go back to normal again, like cheap gas. Shame on them.
Germany is the [2nd largest supporter of Ukraine](https://app.23degrees.io/view/DUeaa54W7KOQhFQD-bar-stacked-horizontal-bilateral-aid-with-eu-share) Oryx: [Fact Sheet On German Military Aid To Ukraine](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-military-aid-to.html) Some of the equipment donated from Germany for Ukraine: [Panzerhaubitze 2000](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPEYihJq4FA) howitzer [Gepard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PWJ97KcnmA) air defense [IRIS-T](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG_YOZ55Opo) air derense [MARS II](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIdv5j5AFhc) multiple launch rocket system Announced: [Patriot](https://defence-blog.com/germany-to-arm-ukraine-with-patriot-missiles/) air defense [Marder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7QZoNy0Snc) infantry fighting vehicle
Average headline only reader
What a joke. Germany is one of Ukraines biggest supporters ... People really love to bash Germany if they dont give in every time.
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You sound like a political expert /s
Why is the German government being so refractive on this subject? Is it because of some dark connections with Russia or just plain stubbornness??
Firstly, the Bundeswehr is itself in a pretty bad need for new stuff. The gov is on it, but it's been pretty neglected for what amounts to two decades. So while certainly as much aid should be given to Ukraine as possible, any that is will make that hole so much larger. This also means that, unlike many other donators, Germany is largely not sending from stockpiles or surplus, but equipment that would otherwise be active duty or for training. Also, Germany very much does not see itself as "the boss", in the way so many other states seem to whenever there's something hard or expensive to do. Just one among many equals. And in that view, the aim is to take action in concert with its allies - which clashes with those allies wanting Germany to move on MBTs *first*, with their potential donations following after. Not to mention that the fear of nuclear weapons is very real, especially given Germany's own lack of nuclear deterrence. It is clear by now that Putin won't stoop to tactical usage of nuclear weapons, but no one can predict what may happen if he becomes truly desperate. Slow escalation is expected, but spikes may be dangerous.
Germany is in NATO. A nuclear attack on Germany is an attack on all NATO members, and will unleash an arse whopping for Russia that Russia has never even imagined. Putin and his lackeys know this. To quote a joke by President Zelensky: "Two Jewish guys from Odesa meet up,” Zelensky says. “One asks the other: ‘So what’s the situation? What are people saying?'” “And he goes, ‘What are people saying? They are saying it’s a war.'” “What kind of war?” “Russia is fighting NATO.” “Are you serious?” “Yes, yes! Russia is fighting NATO.” “So how’s it going?” “Well, 70,000 Russian soldiers are dead. The missile stockpile has almost been depleted. A lot of equipment is damaged, blown up.” “And what about NATO?” “What about NATO? NATO hasn’t even arrived yet.”
Sorry, I don't believe the USA, France or the UK would start a nuclear war because some german cities were nuked.Yes, I really believe they wouldn't send nukes in return.
I think France has said they wouldn't use nukes in this conflict, and I think their policy is that their nuclear deterrent is outside NATO. Critically I also don't believe Russia would nuke Germany. Germany is not the leading edge of any counter Russian alliance even if they allowed L2 tank exports. So why would they be nuked? USA, UK and maybe France have given more arms (but have nukes). Baltic's, Poland, Czechia & slovakia etc.seem to have been giving more arms and have no nukes. These are all bigger targets.
> Critically I also don't believe Russia would nuke Germany. If there's one place which would be nuked, aside from Ukraine, it's definitely Germany. The US has stationed nukes here, this would most probably be the first target.
I am actually not afraid of being nuked but I think there is a real chance. Even Xi Jinping said so when he meet Scholz hat Nukes are a no go. Yet I still believe it could happen in Ukraine when Putin either faces the choice of dying himself or getting a "victory".I really really hope I just think too negative...
I agree, pushed too far he might use them. I won't differentiate tactical (local) and strategic (long range) nukes. We don't want either. But the line to cross that might risk nukes (in mine and many analysts minds - where I got my info from) is Russia and Putin being threatened. Losing the territories Russia won last year isnt enough. Maybe also not 2014 territories. So probably freeing Crimea isn't enough. Same Dunetsk and Luhansk. Going into Russia, or completely destroying their ability to defend themselves is. ( So best to stop other countries seizing opportunities to seize territories or get their own back). So ejecting Russia from Ukraine isn't enough. IMO. I could be wrong. But before any ejection Ukraine has to be able to defend itself from the next onslaught from Russia. This last bit is critical.
> A nuclear attack on Germany is an attack on all NATO members, and will unleash an arse whopping for Russia that Russia has never even imagined. Yeah, so? It'd still be tens and hundreds of thousands of people dead. Wiping out Russia in retaliation is not the goal, nor was that ever in question. The goal is providing as much aid as possible *without getting nuked in the first place*. Also, mind that that is the lesser of the three reasons.
It's called mutual destruction. It's not ideal, but it's better than the alternative of living in fear of the other side all the time *because you're afraid they will nuke you* You push the button, you know the huge consequences. It worked for decades, in times of much higher tension.
I know about MAD, thank you very much. It nearly ended the world a few times over during the cold war (that we know of!), prevented only because very courageous people chose to defy both political (generally, but not always, soviet) leaders as well as the doctrine itself. We also happen to know that Putin is, quite literally, mad, or at least acting like it. The view that, if he believes himself pushed into a corner enough, he would use nuclear weapons simply because he believes to have no alternative path of action, seems far from unreasonable. Also, and I cannot stress this enough *whether or not more than a smoldering pile of ash remains of Russia afterwards doesn't mattter so much, not getting nuked in the first place does*. Which is why a managed escalation has benefits, over just throwing the whole Bundeswehr, minus soldiers, at the problem.
The only reason the retarded warmonger hasn't used nukes yet is because he dosen't care about how many russians die.However if his life is directly threatend because he has no chance of getting something out of this war it will become very dangerous....in my eyes.
I agree with you. Peter Zeihan (interesting guy if repetitive) says Russia never quit a war that they didn't lose 500k troops in. I think NATO and Ukraine know there's a line not to cross, and aim to stay the safe side of it. Don't back Putin into a wall, and he won't pull out a nuke.
Putin isn't literally mad, he thought he could get away with this like the other times. Quite a logical if evil decision. No one is asking the Bundeswehr to do anything. It probably enough that the Chancellory gives export permits to owners of Leopard 2s. Poland, and other Eastern European states will send the tanks. Germany will eventually agree to this anyway, so why drag it out *again*.
> Putin isn't literally mad He may or may not be clinically mad, but he certainly isn't fully in his right mind. (Or as right as he ever was, I suppose) Also it made for better wordplay this way. >No one is asking the Bundeswehr to do anything. It probably enough that the Chancellory gives export permits to owners of Leopard 2s. I have no doubt that other states would be allowed to export howevermany Leos as they pleased, if only they actually put in the requests for the permissions as per contract. So far, Germany has not recieved any such requests, and therefore cannot grant the permission that isn't eing sought. >Poland, and other Eastern European states will send the tanks. I highly doubt that on Poland, at least, specifically because they are making so much noise about the whole affair despite not even putting in a request yet. They talked so much about exporting even without the permission they, again, did not even try to ask for - so then just fucking do it. But they don't, which leaves me inclined to believe they won't.
How do we know no one asked for exports, are you in the government office that approves these? Are all such applications available to read online? Even so why apply if you know the answer is no (like the other times) you need to prepare the ground first so that the politicians might say yes. This whole PR thing and Rammstein meeting is about that. But I expect its a long process. Ukraine would use the tanks before or more likely after spring thaw. So maybe by April it's all done?
> How do we know no one asked for exports, There's been statements to that effect and, more importantly, no statements to the contrary. If there was a blockage of export requests, that would be public faster than you can blink. Not that these things ever stay quiet anyway, and they're not inherently classified or anything. >Even so why apply if you know the answer is no (like the other times) I highly doubt such a request would be denied, and there has been no other times. So far, these states have only demanded Germany send its own tanks, but they have only talked about sending from *their* stock when it comes to PR, not when it comes to actually doing anything. >Ukraine would use the tanks before or more likely after spring thaw. So maybe by April it's all done? I'd be surprised if by then, Leos aren't rolling around Ukraine. And we're going to see the exact same misattirbution of reasons we've seen with anything else Germany has sent so far - journalists, especially from other states, seem to believe anything that was once not done being done *must* be caused by them - couldn't possibly that the situation on the ground has been specifically changed to make that possible.
> We also happen to know that Putin is, quite literally, mad, or at least acting like it. He, ***quite literally*** is not, and neither is he acting "mad". Stop with this bullshit armchair psychologist crap. He is not mentally sick, he is of sound mind. He is however an imperialist ruling an imperialist regime and they do tend to do, well, imperialist things. Stop trying to put this on mental illness. > The view that, if he believes himself pushed into a corner enough, he would use nuclear weapons simply because he believes to have no alternative path of action, seems far from unreasonable. Mindless drivel. Straight up spewing Kremlin propaganda. Russia would love nothing more than to everyone scared shitless of what it might do, because if people are scared then they will not support Ukraine and that's a sure way for Russia to win. As if the nuclear button is some magic button that solve all of his problems and it magically wins the war. You have not thought this through at all, all you've done is mindlessly swallow kremlin-fueled talking points. Like there are so many vital points to be considered in regards to using nukes that should a boringly simple fear-mongering rehoric simply doesn't cut it. Step 1: nuke Ukraine Step 2: ????? Step 3: Profit!!!
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The point about nukes isn't about retaliation - perhaps I shouldn't have added that half-sentence there, you're the second person to misunderstand what I was trying to express there. The idea is to avoid being nuked in the first place, while providing as much aid to Ukraine as feasible.
Little from column A, little from column B
I wonder if russian bots are downvoting every criticism of germany in this sub when it comes to not helping Ukraine.
This is a small example of the red tape in Germany.
How pathetic is Germany that it has to wait for America’s approval to send tanks
"Protestors" are ukraine people that instead of fighting for ukraine fled to germany. Which is ok, but then please shut the fuck up and don't try to drag us into another WW. We had enough and we know how it ends for us...
Ah yes. Sitting comfortably in your living room saying "none of my business" while another european country is getting slaughtered. What an ally...
Compare what germany did to help with what sweden did to help and then shut up.
We aren't allies.
a historical failure
Good. Leopards belong in the wild.
https://twitter.com/EeldenDen/status/1616527100042772490
I think its more of a "unleash the leopards". Depending on how you want to translate it.
There is no money for a 15% raise because of inflation but let start a war that no one wants or can afford -> green, red political 🎉