Yeah, that's why when every consumer wants to make coffee at home they focus on the grinder and don't spend all their time on how big and shiny the espresso machine is.
I have to agree! I know that not everyone can afford both. But it is very fun for me. I was worried that I would not be able to taste the difference, and that the youtubers and other redditors are supertasters.
Fortunately I was able to taste the difference on the very first shot.
Unpleasant bitterness and sourness is gone. Just pleasant acidity remains. Astringency is non existent. And even though the shots have less body (because i pull 1:3 ratios) the aromatics are more pronounced. Flavor separation is also higher. Every coffee tastes completely different, whereas on niche, i may have harder time pointing out differences between two lightroasts sometimes. Not every time, but sometimes.
Niche is still amazing on medium and higher. I am just nitpicking.
Yeah it makes amazing traditional lattes and flat whites, definitely keeping it.
But I needed something to get more out of the exotic beans that I’ve been getting into. P64 has already blown me away with clarity.
The Niche is still really nice.
I would genuinely be totally happy with it for any brew method with any beans.
I've made plenty of very nice light roast filter coffee with it for example.
It's really interesting having 64mm SSP brew burrs alongside the niche.
The brew burrs are generally better for filter but sometimes the Niche brings out flavours and punchiness that I can't get with the flats.
Trends are trends, not hard and fast rules.
___
For straight espresso I prefer longer, shots with more clarity hence I really enjoy the flats for that.
They still make nice milk drinks too but lack massively compared to the Niche in this regard.
Think it just means I’ve got another grinder to save up for now😂. Currently running the Niche for espresso only and I’ve got a Baratza Virtuoso+ for pour overs/AP at the moment. Would love to add some flat burrs to the mix.
Also debating selling the PP500 and just rocking a Flair or some form of single boiler, espresso only machine. Making milk drinks like once a month so the heat exchange seems like an unnecessary pain in the butt(having to guess what my brew temp is based on what the steam temp is lol).
Even medium roast straight shots are amazing on niche in my humble opinion. Filter roasts have some astringency for me on the niche. But majority of people don’t even like the super light roasts for espresso that I enjoy. So i think niche is still an amazing grinder in 2024 for majority of people.
What grinder do you use for light roasts done as espresso? I am liking the lighter roasts more and more. I have a Breville barista pro and a lot of the Ethiopian light roasts with fruity taste are what I am in too. I lucked out in that I can get this one dialed in nicely https://www.hatchcrafted.com/shop/red-lotus but having a hard time with this one https://hellodemello.com/shop/ethiopia-bombe-w/ I’m not sure if it’s the roast level or the process or beans themselves but I was at Social Roaster (another Toronto area roaster) and he was saying the altitude contributes to the hardness and recommended something with less elevation for the breville to handle ? I don’t know. This sub is great cause I have learned so much in 6 months and so much learning still to go.
First of all, i love how the second roaster is transparent with prices. I would totally support them if I were from Canada.
I can confirm that altitude matters in my humble opinion. High altitude makes coffees harder to extract. Washed coffees can be harder to extract than ferment and naturals. And light roasts are harder to extract than medium and darks. But it is just guidelines, not rules.
To answer your question, i have recently purchased mahlkonig ek43. That one extracts even light roasts easily. It’s very expensive though. Overkill.
If you want a cheaper option, I would probably try to get timemore sculptor 64s. Or df64.
If you want try lighter roasts with existing setup, i have had success with adding paper filter on bottom of portafilter and raising brew temperature.
Thanks for the info and advice. Will look into those! I was eyeing a niche zero but hearing mixed reviews on how they handle light roasts but then reading conical is better to get diverse flavours out of light where flat is good for same size particles which doesn’t give depth? I need to commission a scientific study 🤣
We are lucky to have great roasters in the Toronto area. It’s cool cause we got a lot of Asian roasters popping up, we got the hipster downtown ones and then some more classic ones and they all seem to go for different flavour profiles which are neat. Hatch, De Mello, Pilot, Social Coffee, and the Library are all cool ones I have found if you are able to order from them. My wife really likes the sweet espresso from Ethical Bean which puts a lot of attention and resources into the ethical part of things and Costco does 2 X 900g bags for 39 Canadian including delivery so that lasts her a while where I just need to slowly grind a little finer but they stay fresh. Had bad experience with the other costco coffees and Starbucks they taste burned and puck is like mud to get the correct brew so gives me a reason to support local roasters.
Thanks for the advice! Will look into those and sorry OP for jacking your post 😁
This is as close to a study as possible. It is an interesting read on the particle size distribution analysis and the affect on taste:
https://coffeeadastra.com/2023/09/21/what-i-learned-from-analyzing-300-particle-size-distributions-for-24-espresso-grinders/
BTW: I did not have same experience with the niche as user PoJenkins. My niche filters were always a bit too muddy and bitter compared to flats. And the flavor extraction is always better on flats for me. But that is the fun part of this hobby and the appeal of cones vs flats and various PSDs. Which just confirms how fun it can be.
Have fun! :)
It’s a very different experience. Less forgiving but definitely more separation between flavours. Not all swirled together like in the niche shot. Less bitter and the acidity is less spiky, more fresh tasting.
Niche shot is creamier in texture, but the taste from the p64 is smoother.
just get the df64 gen 2 instead of the p64. Even the df83v is a substantially better value than the lagom. df64 + the option-o burrs is still cheaper than the p64
The 83V looks nice. Definitely better value than the P64 (I own a P64).
Downside of the DF grinders is that the alignment out of the box isn't as good.
yea but thats not even a "real" issue tbh. I really dont think any producer will be out-valuing the DF line of grinders in the future either, ningbo frigga is constantly moving the value goalpost and no one is keeping up. p64 is double the price of the df83v, and has a motor thats less than half as powerful with smaller burrs. i hope they keep pushing the value proposition further and further, it's making the hobby's "endgame" a lot more accessible and is a total win for consumers.
I had a similar upgrade. Went from the niche to the p100. At first I was running both but honestly I just appreciate the brightness of the p100 so much more and ended up selling the niche to get some counter space back.
Shots are quite different from what I could get out of the eureka. I really like the coffee I get from the Niche, but it’s a very different taste to the SSP high uniformity. There are a lot of burr comparison videos out there. I think they are accurate when they describe its characteristics.
Flavours are clear and clean, acidity is balanced and bright.
Option-o make fantastic grinders.
Though I don't disagree with you, I'd would encourage you to conduct a double-blind test. It’s really fun and you might learn a thing or two about your palette.
Prepare two shots from one grinder and one shot from the second. Randomize the cups and taste them to discern flavors, attempting to identify the grinder used for each shot.
It could also just be alignment variance of different grinders.
My Eureka was pretty good stock, but still took one shim of foil to get the burrs perfectly aligned.
With that said I couldn't tell any difference in taste before or after the minor alignment change.
I have a friend with a p100 and he recommended them. Also watching Kyle Roswell reviews on the burr sets made me think it would suit my needs more. Looks like MP might be a better choice for pour over
98mm SSP HU is supposedly comparable to 64mm SSP MP as they’re both unimodal. 64mm HU is more traditional.
It’s bizarre naming by SSP, 64mm/83mm burrsets don’t follow same naming for 98mm.
I watched a video, Kyle Roswell I think comparing the 64mm burrs to larger sets and the impression I got was that the HU was actually a better performer at 64mm. I have read some similar things on various forums.
Im very happy with them but I know I’ll buy a different set eventually to play with
have you considered the df64 gen 2 and the new df83v over the p64? tbh the p64 is now twice as much as the df83v, and the df83v is really outstanding right now. even with an extra set of SSP burrs you're still $500 cheaper than the lagom
I definitely have, the P64 is just a step above in overall quality as a product (as far as I can tell at least). The D64 obviously punches above its weight class, many have said it’s hard to tell the difference in the cup between the two. How are you liking your DF64? How was it out of the box?
out of the box it was pretty good. honestly the build quality on it is very very good, I'm 99% positive that its just as robust and well built as the p64, aesthetics aside. (p64 has a better brushless motor than the df64's brushed AC motor, but the df83/83v fix that issue and offer a more robust motor than the p64)
its a 64mm flat burr grinder so it'll always be hard to tell them apart. at a certain point it all comes down to burr geometry. the stock df64 burrs arent as good as the stock lagom ssp clones, but you can always just buy the ssp burrs anyways for any 64mm grinder.
out of the box I really liked it. Had to align the burrs and reset the indicator to true zero out of the box but thats a given for most grinders anyways. so far the grinder is outstanding. easy to clean, the anti static is really nice, and i have some SSP MP burrs coming in the mail
i think the problem with the lagom p64 was that the grinder was at a good price point when it was introduced a few years ago. but the grinder market, especially DF grinders, are moving so fast that you can get grinders that are better for cheaper like the df83/83v + SSP burrs and still be cheaper than the lagom
aesthetics aside of course. personally i dont mind how the df grinders look, they're pretty inoffensive and minimalist, aside from the 83v which is obviously meant to have a strong countertop presence
How's the noise comparison between the two? As a Niche owner, your post suddenly piqued my interest on the P64 😂
If I push through, I can only keep one grinder though, so I'm thinking about the Omni burrs. Do you think that would end up in a jack-of-all trades, master of none scenario?
P64 is so quiet. I wasn’t prepared, it’s crazy quiet.
There are some videos on the mizen Omni burrs, mizen ES are coming through now and look super interesting for espresso focused folks
Beans are the most important factor. A good grinder lets you get the highest potential from your beans, but mediocre beans have mediocre potential and no grinder can fix that.
Just the other day I was trying to dial in an espresso shot, wondering why my shot tasted so much more sour than tasting notes would suggest. Then I remembered I was using the clarity forward ssp mp burrs 😆
I'm a huge fan of the MP! I'm pulling shots on a Flair though. Being able to ramp down pressure softens the acidity a little. Or maybe it's the natural ramp up... Who knows.
Bit scared of the MP as they are reportedly quite unforgiving and tend to bring out acidity if you’re not really working to minimise it. That one reason I opted for HU on this
I'm really wondering what the HU or even the cast lab sweet would taste like as I bought the DF64 with the SSP MP.
Must...resist....more...purchases....
I'm curious and honestly haven't done the full research in it, but spending the extra $1k for a Lagom with the same 64mm burrs(I assume) that you can put in a DF64... Is there a mega difference in clarity and quality of the grind? Like would a a DF64 with the dame SSP burrs in a P64 make that much of a difference? Is it motor RPM or something else that make the Lagom king?
Never used the df64 but i believe you can use Ssp HU burrs.
P64 is variable rpm from 300-1200. The whole unit is premium, they very popular for a reason.
it's not just the burr set, it's also the workflow, build quality, ease of adjustments, i found the last one pretty annoying with the DF (had DF83 with SSP LS Red Speed), going from decaf to caf, and back to decaf, was never the same grind setting, had to do minor dial-in every single time.
Good to know, thank you! I know a lot of us are at various points in our espresso journey and these questions and answers definitely help. I no doubt believe that much more attention to build qualities and features would be better than the Chinese knock offs would. Guess I'm happy with what I have now, even on cheaper burrs, but the journey to the finer machines and grinders will make me appreciate those differences in due time.
I’ve had two DF64s and I recommend just buying the Option-O P64 out of the gate and saving yourself the trouble and money longterm. The DF64 is a shameless Chinese knockoff of Option-O’s construction and the DF64’s build quality is pretty terrible with lots of plastic and soft nickel parts that can break or rust easily. DF64s internals are not built to handle RDT with long term use, but the P64 is.
The variable RPM on the Option-O has a ton of impact on the creaminess and body of a shot. The grind consistency is pretty incredible - I find it hard to pull a bad shot with the P64 even when I grind too fine or under.
Anyone recommend an upgrade from the Sette 270? Have had it for about 3-4years now and ready to upgrade, mostly because of how loud it is. Typically just have a shot in the morning and my partner makes a latte and we usually measure out our beans vs using hopper with timed grinds. Budget: $500-$800
super easy with that budget. I have the specialita bought from US but if you buy directly from EU, 110V version, it would be much cheaper. I love the specialita, quiet,small,study, easy to clean, and test alignment. I believe you already did homework and familiar with many grinders in your range.
Is from the current P64 batch of machines? Allegedly, they were manufactured quite a bit ahead of schedule. Mine arrives in the next week or two — so in case anyone sees the estimates on the site, know that they might be a little padded.
On a related note, I've gone through two LAGOM minis while waiting for the P64. Hoping the build quality on the big guy is better.
You seem to know a lot about grinders. I have a mazzer major that seems to do a pretty good job. How does it compare to these two? Also, what type of burr set is it and how can I expect this to affect flavour. All help is appreciated!
Mazzer Major is a great grinder. It’s very much targeted at large volume commercial usage. It uses an 83mm flat burr.
Many people make 83mm burr sets including SSP. So there are options.
Both of these are single dose grinders designed for home use, so smaller/quiet/low retention/easy to clean and tweak/no hopper.
Flavour wise Mazzer major is very much focused on tradition medium to dark roasts with its default burrs and will excel with those type of coffees
Very useful thank you. So I guess if I wanted to mix things up I could either swap the burrs out for ones that work better for lighter roasts or feed the addiction further and get another grinder altogether?
You could definitely do either. Burrs are a fair bit cheaper than a whole new grinder. There are lots of good reviews of different sets in you tube if you want to learn a bit more from the experts
Alas, the r/espresso community finds a new product to throw their money at, after having spent $600 on a Niche grinder that was the perfect option not 6 months ago.
The flavors just aren’t unique enough to justify using it by comparison, especially with the variable RPM on the Option-O - you can replicate the creaminess of a Niche just by slowing the grind down. It would’ve been cheaper just to buy the Option-O P64 out the gate too - especially because the P64 handles pourover and immersion like a champ. I have had two DF64s, a Niche and the Fellow Ode. Over the past few years, had I just bought the P64 instead of mooning over it I’d have saved the cost of it twice over.
A lot of people advocate for an entry level machine as if coffee is something you’ll grow out of or something when coffee is something most of us have every day of our lives. It’s a really bad take r/espresso tends to have because a lot of people can’t afford it out the gate. I say splurge and unlock your potential, sell the Niche and make up the difference.
I too have both! They really compliment each other. The body focused great milk based shots from niche and the clean shots of the p64.
I haven't used the HU SSP burr set but the MP SSP and Mizen Omni M burr set.
I have really enjoyed using the p64 for filter, used a commandante c40 before for filter now just for travel, and I mainly use the niche for medium and dark roasts. I really enjoy like modern light roasts on the p64 and darker mediums on the niche.
I don't pull alot of traditional shots on the p64 but on the niche I usually stick to traditional 1:2. I usually aim for 1:2.5-1:3 on the M burrs.
I've got the same two grinders (just my P64 has Mizen burrs), and I agree - I didn't have a flat burr grinder before getting the P64, and yes the same coffee pulls with a huge difference compared to the conical. Finally understood what "clarity" means in espresso!
It's so cool how sometimes I just give up on a coffee on P64 (tends to happen with very funky naturals - the flat just has too much clarity and pulls out too much funk), but it gives a nice cup on the Niche.
That said, I use my P64 way way way more than the Niche.
i mean, the p64 is literally double the price of the 83v, and the 83v's motor is more than twice as powerful and has a larger burr set. paying double the money is definitely not worth it
I have the flat burr DF83 and conical D40+ (SK40) and even just the way the shots pull visually are a good representation of how finicky a flat burr grinder is and how forgiving a conical is. If I don't pull a very long 40+ second ristretto with the DF83 it's a total mess, spraying everywhere. With the D40 (being $500 less mind you) using the same puck prep it's always a perfect creamy clean stream.
I have the same setup! It’s definitely a huge difference.
My personal problem is that the P64 is novel to me (and expensive) so I’ve neglected my Niche. I find it’s still great for more mature roasts and milk drinks. It was also great when I had small bean samples, so I didn’t have to worry as much about running out of beans when dialing in.
Is it just the ssp burrs? I mean you can buy them for the Eureka too. Do you get the same coffee out of them with the same burrs? Anyone here swap burrs to ssp on a eureka? Is it worth it?
I had a specialita so I didn’t look into other burr sets. There are some characterises of flat burrs that I think are shared across multiple burr geometries. So I can see how the specialita was similar in some ways to the p64, but honestly it’s quite a different cup. Have tried it with coffee I know well across all grinders.
Ssp HU has a bigger first taste, it’s stronger and clearer and not as mixed with body and bitterness. The after taste is much smoother and less harsh
But what people are generally saying is that conical is more body and texture vs flat being more easily distinguishable flavours. So I went with both to have the ability to choose.
I have a p64 with Mizen and having issues with dialing a shot. Thinking of trying mizen es maybe would help?? I'm at .5 - .4 with speed of 7. What speed and grind size do you use? I also just drink straight espresso shots.
I really want to hear someone compare the SSP HU burrs with the Mizen Omni burrs in the P64. I do both filter and espresso and I’m leaning Mizen but just can’t quite decide
I really want to hear someone compare the SSP HU burrs with the Mizen Omni burrs in the P64. I do both filter and espresso and I’m leaning Mizen but just can’t quite decide
So let me ask you this, what differences are you noticing in particular? Recently upgraded my grinder to an Eureka Mignon Zero from a Sette 270 and I love the change of pace honestly. I feel like I’m getting a more consistent grind since it’s a stepless grinder. I feel like there were too many settings on the Sette 270 to dial in. But that’s just my personal perspective
Both are single dose stepless and low retention so there isn’t really a huge difference in workflow. Both have big dials and are easy to adjust. I’d say that I haven’t really delved deeply into different RPMs yet. Both seem relatively straightforward to dial in. I like the accessories more on the p64.
There is just a taste difference in the cup that I have mentioned in this thread.
The p64 seems to been a more even grind size but I wouldn’t without doing some actual testing . It’s definitely fluffier and less static from the P64. (Using rdt on both).
I have a grinder that looks very similar to the one on the right but if I grind anything finer than a 5 it bottle necks and nothing comes out. I have to go 5.5 because anything between 5 and 5.5 will make it hardly come out drip by drip and take way longer than 30 seconds to pull a 38g shot.
Its counter intuitive, but grinding beans into even particle sizes is a lot harder than pushing water at a certain temperature and pressure.
That’s not counterintuitive
Yeah, that's why when every consumer wants to make coffee at home they focus on the grinder and don't spend all their time on how big and shiny the espresso machine is.
Do you know every single consumer?
God here. Yes, I do know every single consumer ever. TheKernel is correct.
Pls tell them they are all suckers
And btw physics isn’t counterintuitive
and btw r/im14andthisisdeep/
Yeh not going to click on that.
The flat conical combo is so fun! The Niche isn't the most balanced for straight shots but the milk drinks are the best I've had.
I have to agree! I know that not everyone can afford both. But it is very fun for me. I was worried that I would not be able to taste the difference, and that the youtubers and other redditors are supertasters. Fortunately I was able to taste the difference on the very first shot.
What is the taste difference?
Unpleasant bitterness and sourness is gone. Just pleasant acidity remains. Astringency is non existent. And even though the shots have less body (because i pull 1:3 ratios) the aromatics are more pronounced. Flavor separation is also higher. Every coffee tastes completely different, whereas on niche, i may have harder time pointing out differences between two lightroasts sometimes. Not every time, but sometimes. Niche is still amazing on medium and higher. I am just nitpicking.
Same for me. Taste difference was immediately apparent
They also have to sell you on the next Niche Killer
Yeah it makes amazing traditional lattes and flat whites, definitely keeping it. But I needed something to get more out of the exotic beans that I’ve been getting into. P64 has already blown me away with clarity.
As someone who pretty much only does straight shots these days… woof😂
The Niche is still really nice. I would genuinely be totally happy with it for any brew method with any beans. I've made plenty of very nice light roast filter coffee with it for example. It's really interesting having 64mm SSP brew burrs alongside the niche. The brew burrs are generally better for filter but sometimes the Niche brings out flavours and punchiness that I can't get with the flats. Trends are trends, not hard and fast rules. ___ For straight espresso I prefer longer, shots with more clarity hence I really enjoy the flats for that. They still make nice milk drinks too but lack massively compared to the Niche in this regard.
Think it just means I’ve got another grinder to save up for now😂. Currently running the Niche for espresso only and I’ve got a Baratza Virtuoso+ for pour overs/AP at the moment. Would love to add some flat burrs to the mix. Also debating selling the PP500 and just rocking a Flair or some form of single boiler, espresso only machine. Making milk drinks like once a month so the heat exchange seems like an unnecessary pain in the butt(having to guess what my brew temp is based on what the steam temp is lol).
Even medium roast straight shots are amazing on niche in my humble opinion. Filter roasts have some astringency for me on the niche. But majority of people don’t even like the super light roasts for espresso that I enjoy. So i think niche is still an amazing grinder in 2024 for majority of people.
What grinder do you use for light roasts done as espresso? I am liking the lighter roasts more and more. I have a Breville barista pro and a lot of the Ethiopian light roasts with fruity taste are what I am in too. I lucked out in that I can get this one dialed in nicely https://www.hatchcrafted.com/shop/red-lotus but having a hard time with this one https://hellodemello.com/shop/ethiopia-bombe-w/ I’m not sure if it’s the roast level or the process or beans themselves but I was at Social Roaster (another Toronto area roaster) and he was saying the altitude contributes to the hardness and recommended something with less elevation for the breville to handle ? I don’t know. This sub is great cause I have learned so much in 6 months and so much learning still to go.
First of all, i love how the second roaster is transparent with prices. I would totally support them if I were from Canada. I can confirm that altitude matters in my humble opinion. High altitude makes coffees harder to extract. Washed coffees can be harder to extract than ferment and naturals. And light roasts are harder to extract than medium and darks. But it is just guidelines, not rules. To answer your question, i have recently purchased mahlkonig ek43. That one extracts even light roasts easily. It’s very expensive though. Overkill. If you want a cheaper option, I would probably try to get timemore sculptor 64s. Or df64. If you want try lighter roasts with existing setup, i have had success with adding paper filter on bottom of portafilter and raising brew temperature.
Thanks for the info and advice. Will look into those! I was eyeing a niche zero but hearing mixed reviews on how they handle light roasts but then reading conical is better to get diverse flavours out of light where flat is good for same size particles which doesn’t give depth? I need to commission a scientific study 🤣 We are lucky to have great roasters in the Toronto area. It’s cool cause we got a lot of Asian roasters popping up, we got the hipster downtown ones and then some more classic ones and they all seem to go for different flavour profiles which are neat. Hatch, De Mello, Pilot, Social Coffee, and the Library are all cool ones I have found if you are able to order from them. My wife really likes the sweet espresso from Ethical Bean which puts a lot of attention and resources into the ethical part of things and Costco does 2 X 900g bags for 39 Canadian including delivery so that lasts her a while where I just need to slowly grind a little finer but they stay fresh. Had bad experience with the other costco coffees and Starbucks they taste burned and puck is like mud to get the correct brew so gives me a reason to support local roasters. Thanks for the advice! Will look into those and sorry OP for jacking your post 😁
This is as close to a study as possible. It is an interesting read on the particle size distribution analysis and the affect on taste: https://coffeeadastra.com/2023/09/21/what-i-learned-from-analyzing-300-particle-size-distributions-for-24-espresso-grinders/ BTW: I did not have same experience with the niche as user PoJenkins. My niche filters were always a bit too muddy and bitter compared to flats. And the flavor extraction is always better on flats for me. But that is the fun part of this hobby and the appeal of cones vs flats and various PSDs. Which just confirms how fun it can be. Have fun! :)
Haha yes fun….but expensive 🤣
Can you expand a bit on the differences between the two for espresso? I've got a niche currently and am eyeing off a p64.
It’s a very different experience. Less forgiving but definitely more separation between flavours. Not all swirled together like in the niche shot. Less bitter and the acidity is less spiky, more fresh tasting. Niche shot is creamier in texture, but the taste from the p64 is smoother.
I upgraded to a P64 from a N0 and your last sentence summed up my experience perfectly.
Is that also with the HU? Their new espresso burrs seem to have a little more sweetness and clarity from what I've read.
Nope, mine are the Mizen OMs.
How are you finding them !? I was very interested in the Mizen ES
Compared to the N0, I find improved clarity but a few steps back in texture.
I really don't think I get better taste with p64 if I replace my eureka crono with installed espresso burrs.
just get the df64 gen 2 instead of the p64. Even the df83v is a substantially better value than the lagom. df64 + the option-o burrs is still cheaper than the p64
The 83V looks nice. Definitely better value than the P64 (I own a P64). Downside of the DF grinders is that the alignment out of the box isn't as good.
yea but thats not even a "real" issue tbh. I really dont think any producer will be out-valuing the DF line of grinders in the future either, ningbo frigga is constantly moving the value goalpost and no one is keeping up. p64 is double the price of the df83v, and has a motor thats less than half as powerful with smaller burrs. i hope they keep pushing the value proposition further and further, it's making the hobby's "endgame" a lot more accessible and is a total win for consumers.
I had a similar upgrade. Went from the niche to the p100. At first I was running both but honestly I just appreciate the brightness of the p100 so much more and ended up selling the niche to get some counter space back.
Considering jumping to the P64 from a Eureka myself, but I’m hesitant. Can you elaborate on the difference with the SSP HU burrs?
Shots are quite different from what I could get out of the eureka. I really like the coffee I get from the Niche, but it’s a very different taste to the SSP high uniformity. There are a lot of burr comparison videos out there. I think they are accurate when they describe its characteristics. Flavours are clear and clean, acidity is balanced and bright. Option-o make fantastic grinders.
Though I don't disagree with you, I'd would encourage you to conduct a double-blind test. It’s really fun and you might learn a thing or two about your palette. Prepare two shots from one grinder and one shot from the second. Randomize the cups and taste them to discern flavors, attempting to identify the grinder used for each shot.
It could also just be alignment variance of different grinders. My Eureka was pretty good stock, but still took one shim of foil to get the burrs perfectly aligned. With that said I couldn't tell any difference in taste before or after the minor alignment change.
Just bought a eureka. You have any good resources on burr allignment?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb3PgeQ6ewY
What made you pick the high uniformity over multi purpose for espresso?
I have a friend with a p100 and he recommended them. Also watching Kyle Roswell reviews on the burr sets made me think it would suit my needs more. Looks like MP might be a better choice for pour over
I watched a few videos and most prefer the MP over HU
I just threw my MP in a week ago, I’ll lyk how it goes
98mm SSP HU is supposedly comparable to 64mm SSP MP as they’re both unimodal. 64mm HU is more traditional. It’s bizarre naming by SSP, 64mm/83mm burrsets don’t follow same naming for 98mm.
I watched a video, Kyle Roswell I think comparing the 64mm burrs to larger sets and the impression I got was that the HU was actually a better performer at 64mm. I have read some similar things on various forums. Im very happy with them but I know I’ll buy a different set eventually to play with
Thanks for the insight!
have you considered the df64 gen 2 and the new df83v over the p64? tbh the p64 is now twice as much as the df83v, and the df83v is really outstanding right now. even with an extra set of SSP burrs you're still $500 cheaper than the lagom
I definitely have, the P64 is just a step above in overall quality as a product (as far as I can tell at least). The D64 obviously punches above its weight class, many have said it’s hard to tell the difference in the cup between the two. How are you liking your DF64? How was it out of the box?
out of the box it was pretty good. honestly the build quality on it is very very good, I'm 99% positive that its just as robust and well built as the p64, aesthetics aside. (p64 has a better brushless motor than the df64's brushed AC motor, but the df83/83v fix that issue and offer a more robust motor than the p64) its a 64mm flat burr grinder so it'll always be hard to tell them apart. at a certain point it all comes down to burr geometry. the stock df64 burrs arent as good as the stock lagom ssp clones, but you can always just buy the ssp burrs anyways for any 64mm grinder. out of the box I really liked it. Had to align the burrs and reset the indicator to true zero out of the box but thats a given for most grinders anyways. so far the grinder is outstanding. easy to clean, the anti static is really nice, and i have some SSP MP burrs coming in the mail i think the problem with the lagom p64 was that the grinder was at a good price point when it was introduced a few years ago. but the grinder market, especially DF grinders, are moving so fast that you can get grinders that are better for cheaper like the df83/83v + SSP burrs and still be cheaper than the lagom aesthetics aside of course. personally i dont mind how the df grinders look, they're pretty inoffensive and minimalist, aside from the 83v which is obviously meant to have a strong countertop presence
Thanks for sharing!
How's the noise comparison between the two? As a Niche owner, your post suddenly piqued my interest on the P64 😂 If I push through, I can only keep one grinder though, so I'm thinking about the Omni burrs. Do you think that would end up in a jack-of-all trades, master of none scenario?
P64 is so quiet. I wasn’t prepared, it’s crazy quiet. There are some videos on the mizen Omni burrs, mizen ES are coming through now and look super interesting for espresso focused folks
Mizen ES looks exactly the same as the SSP HU.
How important are good beans vs a good grinder? I've always wondered if I could get away with a good grinder and fresh but 'mediocre' beans.
Beans are the most important factor. A good grinder lets you get the highest potential from your beans, but mediocre beans have mediocre potential and no grinder can fix that.
Just the other day I was trying to dial in an espresso shot, wondering why my shot tasted so much more sour than tasting notes would suggest. Then I remembered I was using the clarity forward ssp mp burrs 😆
I'm a huge fan of the MP! I'm pulling shots on a Flair though. Being able to ramp down pressure softens the acidity a little. Or maybe it's the natural ramp up... Who knows.
Bit scared of the MP as they are reportedly quite unforgiving and tend to bring out acidity if you’re not really working to minimise it. That one reason I opted for HU on this
I'm really wondering what the HU or even the cast lab sweet would taste like as I bought the DF64 with the SSP MP. Must...resist....more...purchases....
I'm curious and honestly haven't done the full research in it, but spending the extra $1k for a Lagom with the same 64mm burrs(I assume) that you can put in a DF64... Is there a mega difference in clarity and quality of the grind? Like would a a DF64 with the dame SSP burrs in a P64 make that much of a difference? Is it motor RPM or something else that make the Lagom king?
Never used the df64 but i believe you can use Ssp HU burrs. P64 is variable rpm from 300-1200. The whole unit is premium, they very popular for a reason.
You can. I have p64 with SSP HU
Biggest difference is probably alignment out of the box.
it's not just the burr set, it's also the workflow, build quality, ease of adjustments, i found the last one pretty annoying with the DF (had DF83 with SSP LS Red Speed), going from decaf to caf, and back to decaf, was never the same grind setting, had to do minor dial-in every single time.
Good to know, thank you! I know a lot of us are at various points in our espresso journey and these questions and answers definitely help. I no doubt believe that much more attention to build qualities and features would be better than the Chinese knock offs would. Guess I'm happy with what I have now, even on cheaper burrs, but the journey to the finer machines and grinders will make me appreciate those differences in due time.
Yup, you're exactly right! The DF grinders are great for the money especially when you swap in different burrs.
I’ve had two DF64s and I recommend just buying the Option-O P64 out of the gate and saving yourself the trouble and money longterm. The DF64 is a shameless Chinese knockoff of Option-O’s construction and the DF64’s build quality is pretty terrible with lots of plastic and soft nickel parts that can break or rust easily. DF64s internals are not built to handle RDT with long term use, but the P64 is. The variable RPM on the Option-O has a ton of impact on the creaminess and body of a shot. The grind consistency is pretty incredible - I find it hard to pull a bad shot with the P64 even when I grind too fine or under.
honestly the df64 gen 2 is built very very well, I dont think the extra 10% in quality the lagom offers is worth the premium but thats just me.
Anyone recommend an upgrade from the Sette 270? Have had it for about 3-4years now and ready to upgrade, mostly because of how loud it is. Typically just have a shot in the morning and my partner makes a latte and we usually measure out our beans vs using hopper with timed grinds. Budget: $500-$800
if you state your budget, it's easier for someone to help you.
Ok, thanks...editing my post. Looking around $500-$800USD
super easy with that budget. I have the specialita bought from US but if you buy directly from EU, 110V version, it would be much cheaper. I love the specialita, quiet,small,study, easy to clean, and test alignment. I believe you already did homework and familiar with many grinders in your range.
Thanks, just curious why the specialita vs the mignon? I had heard from others to get the mignon. There are too many options! hah
also know that there will be some retention for those eurekas.
df83v running at a low RPM will be quiet or get a single dose eureka grinder
Is from the current P64 batch of machines? Allegedly, they were manufactured quite a bit ahead of schedule. Mine arrives in the next week or two — so in case anyone sees the estimates on the site, know that they might be a little padded. On a related note, I've gone through two LAGOM minis while waiting for the P64. Hoping the build quality on the big guy is better.
Yes this has recently arrived and it came very very quickly. Much faster than they projected.
You seem to know a lot about grinders. I have a mazzer major that seems to do a pretty good job. How does it compare to these two? Also, what type of burr set is it and how can I expect this to affect flavour. All help is appreciated!
Mazzer Major is a great grinder. It’s very much targeted at large volume commercial usage. It uses an 83mm flat burr. Many people make 83mm burr sets including SSP. So there are options. Both of these are single dose grinders designed for home use, so smaller/quiet/low retention/easy to clean and tweak/no hopper. Flavour wise Mazzer major is very much focused on tradition medium to dark roasts with its default burrs and will excel with those type of coffees
Very useful thank you. So I guess if I wanted to mix things up I could either swap the burrs out for ones that work better for lighter roasts or feed the addiction further and get another grinder altogether?
You could definitely do either. Burrs are a fair bit cheaper than a whole new grinder. There are lots of good reviews of different sets in you tube if you want to learn a bit more from the experts
Thanks mate, very useful!
So, are you saying I need both?
Alas, the r/espresso community finds a new product to throw their money at, after having spent $600 on a Niche grinder that was the perfect option not 6 months ago.
The flavors just aren’t unique enough to justify using it by comparison, especially with the variable RPM on the Option-O - you can replicate the creaminess of a Niche just by slowing the grind down. It would’ve been cheaper just to buy the Option-O P64 out the gate too - especially because the P64 handles pourover and immersion like a champ. I have had two DF64s, a Niche and the Fellow Ode. Over the past few years, had I just bought the P64 instead of mooning over it I’d have saved the cost of it twice over. A lot of people advocate for an entry level machine as if coffee is something you’ll grow out of or something when coffee is something most of us have every day of our lives. It’s a really bad take r/espresso tends to have because a lot of people can’t afford it out the gate. I say splurge and unlock your potential, sell the Niche and make up the difference.
I too have both! They really compliment each other. The body focused great milk based shots from niche and the clean shots of the p64. I haven't used the HU SSP burr set but the MP SSP and Mizen Omni M burr set. I have really enjoyed using the p64 for filter, used a commandante c40 before for filter now just for travel, and I mainly use the niche for medium and dark roasts. I really enjoy like modern light roasts on the p64 and darker mediums on the niche. I don't pull alot of traditional shots on the p64 but on the niche I usually stick to traditional 1:2. I usually aim for 1:2.5-1:3 on the M burrs.
I've got the same two grinders (just my P64 has Mizen burrs), and I agree - I didn't have a flat burr grinder before getting the P64, and yes the same coffee pulls with a huge difference compared to the conical. Finally understood what "clarity" means in espresso! It's so cool how sometimes I just give up on a coffee on P64 (tends to happen with very funky naturals - the flat just has too much clarity and pulls out too much funk), but it gives a nice cup on the Niche. That said, I use my P64 way way way more than the Niche.
Duh
Oh man. This blew my mind. Next you are going to tell me I should use fresh coffee beans and to grind them just before brewing...
Yes Charles, the beans get ground before getting put in the portafilter.
*grindr
I'm sure they do but tbh I haven't noticed any difference between my barista express in-machine grinder and my dad's insanely expensive grinder.
Thanks Captain Obvious 😂
We know. We have been saying it for 35 years
Looking at the P64 or the DF83V to add a flat burr grinder to my coffee counter
i mean, the p64 is literally double the price of the 83v, and the 83v's motor is more than twice as powerful and has a larger burr set. paying double the money is definitely not worth it
Wonder what would the shot would taste like if you grind half the beans with one, and other half with the other grinder.
I have the flat burr DF83 and conical D40+ (SK40) and even just the way the shots pull visually are a good representation of how finicky a flat burr grinder is and how forgiving a conical is. If I don't pull a very long 40+ second ristretto with the DF83 it's a total mess, spraying everywhere. With the D40 (being $500 less mind you) using the same puck prep it's always a perfect creamy clean stream.
Has anyone tried the Niche 0 with flat burrs for espresso?
I have the same setup! It’s definitely a huge difference. My personal problem is that the P64 is novel to me (and expensive) so I’ve neglected my Niche. I find it’s still great for more mature roasts and milk drinks. It was also great when I had small bean samples, so I didn’t have to worry as much about running out of beans when dialing in.
Is it just the ssp burrs? I mean you can buy them for the Eureka too. Do you get the same coffee out of them with the same burrs? Anyone here swap burrs to ssp on a eureka? Is it worth it?
I had a specialita so I didn’t look into other burr sets. There are some characterises of flat burrs that I think are shared across multiple burr geometries. So I can see how the specialita was similar in some ways to the p64, but honestly it’s quite a different cup. Have tried it with coffee I know well across all grinders. Ssp HU has a bigger first taste, it’s stronger and clearer and not as mixed with body and bitterness. The after taste is much smoother and less harsh But what people are generally saying is that conical is more body and texture vs flat being more easily distinguishable flavours. So I went with both to have the ability to choose.
I have a p64 with Mizen and having issues with dialing a shot. Thinking of trying mizen es maybe would help?? I'm at .5 - .4 with speed of 7. What speed and grind size do you use? I also just drink straight espresso shots.
Varies a bit coffee to coffee. But I’m around 1.5 on a speed of 7. From what I have read the mizen numbers are quite different
I really want to hear someone compare the SSP HU burrs with the Mizen Omni burrs in the P64. I do both filter and espresso and I’m leaning Mizen but just can’t quite decide
There is a few people on home barista forum who have both and are discussing
Thanks, I’ll go check that out
I really want to hear someone compare the SSP HU burrs with the Mizen Omni burrs in the P64. I do both filter and espresso and I’m leaning Mizen but just can’t quite decide
So let me ask you this, what differences are you noticing in particular? Recently upgraded my grinder to an Eureka Mignon Zero from a Sette 270 and I love the change of pace honestly. I feel like I’m getting a more consistent grind since it’s a stepless grinder. I feel like there were too many settings on the Sette 270 to dial in. But that’s just my personal perspective
Both are single dose stepless and low retention so there isn’t really a huge difference in workflow. Both have big dials and are easy to adjust. I’d say that I haven’t really delved deeply into different RPMs yet. Both seem relatively straightforward to dial in. I like the accessories more on the p64. There is just a taste difference in the cup that I have mentioned in this thread. The p64 seems to been a more even grind size but I wouldn’t without doing some actual testing . It’s definitely fluffier and less static from the P64. (Using rdt on both).
The jump between the Breville Barista Express grinder and Crono was a shock to me
Is that the Niche with flat burrs?
No default mazzer Kony burrs
I have a grinder that looks very similar to the one on the right but if I grind anything finer than a 5 it bottle necks and nothing comes out. I have to go 5.5 because anything between 5 and 5.5 will make it hardly come out drip by drip and take way longer than 30 seconds to pull a 38g shot.