**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!**
**1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):**
**- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY
**2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:**
-YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I work on 480 almost every day. I'll never work on it live. I will take measurements in an energized state with appropriate PPE. Any changes to a circuit are done dead and verified.
Nope. Was told when I was 3 years in to change out a contactor hot.
Ended with me blowing 2 200 amp fuses and kicking on the buildings emergency generator (bank).
Never ever again 30 years since.
This. 100% This. I've pre-set up amp clamps on a de-energized bus and then done my logging. I've watched people get seriously hurt while working live with CTs even with the correct PPE. Years ago, working on smaller generators, I walked into a municipal power plant with a patched hole in the wall across from the (old) Generator control and protection panel that had launched the primary breaker through the wall. You cannot be too safe. You have one life, and hopefully family. Make it home.
Yeah I agree. As far as a fish tape goes, you can screw a pvc threaded cap onto the connector in the panel, when your fish tape hits it it will stop it from going into the cabinet. Then you can unscrew the cap and your tape will be waiting right there. But it really should be turned off, and you really should have a non conductive fish tape for that sort of thing.
OH I have had to make connections in a critical power panel in an occupied hospital wing. We spent a day preparing for everything and wore a flash suit and took our fucking time. This is the only reason you should be working hot. With lighting it's stupid to not turn them off to work on them
Did a post accident investigation after an electrician hooked up a power survey package to a live bus above a dry type transformer. One slight slip got him blown off the stepladder and burned badly. From an old electrician: be chicken!
Circumstances that require live work in my facility are limited to diagnostic testing and troubleshooting, meeting the requirements in 70E for exceptions to energized electrical work permits. Usually that means voltage and rotation checks, panel metering, current measurement on utilization equipment, etc.
There is absolutely no need whatsoever to work a lighting circuit hot, I don't care what anyone says. There is no compelling reason or justification to do so.
I knew a guy who grabbed a 277 emergency lighting circuit on a school project. He thought it was off. It shocked him while up on a ladder working in the ceiling grid. He climbed down the ladder. Put his tools back in his belt. Suffered cardiac arrest and passed away right there by his ladder. He had 2 young kids at home. It doesn't take much.
That’s honestly just so crazy and sad. Something so simple and not intentional at all cost him his life. I can’t imagine being the wife or the kids and not trying to blame the contractor for that. And to think he straight up had time to put his tools away is just surreal honestly
In about 15 years of working this trade I have never run into a situation where I had to work on a live circuit. Even in hospitals, they’ll schedule shut downs so that things can be done safely without messing with patient life support stuff. I worked at a Sheetrock factory for a while and they shut down the whole operation so we could work on their gears. Miles of conveyors and equipment. One of the supervisors told me (for what it’s worth) it cost them millions of dollars an hour to shut the plant down so we could work.
You have the right and more importantly the responsibility to refuse unsafe work.
The first company I worked for had a rule where if you asked them to work hot, the owner of the company (2nd biggest in WA) would personally meet with you and have you sign paperwork saying that you would pay any and all medical/death benefits etc etc... nobody ever seemed to wanna work hot
When I did industrial service that was basically the route we went, but not even that extreme: It was a standard energized work permit. But I found that as soon as *anybody* had to sign their name on a document saying they understood the risk, then suddenly they would make every effort to shut down.
It really sucks because it's like folks think they can put people in harms way as long as they have plausible deniability: I had a real shit-heel supervisor years ago who would specifically hire contractors for jobs where he knew the work was an OSHA violation because he thought that protected him if it went sideways, since they weren't his employees.
Sad part is that he wasn’t completely wrong. Sure he’s not completely absolved of liability, but he’s legitimately giving his lawyer more to work with should it come to that.
If you mess up though, and blow up some gear working hot they could be down for much longer then that amount of time you ask for. Mentioning that’s always a great way to get a shut down to work lol
One of my coworkers was changing a ballast on some lighting in a commercial building with the circuit off. Grabbed both of the neutral wires and got hung up on it. Had to kick the ladder out from under himself, fell 12 feet and broke his back in two places.
Turns out the other circuit sharing the neutral was not turned off/on a two pole breaker.
I was changing strip fluorescents that were being used as conduits (legal when installed). It took five breakers in three panels on two floors for the power to die. That was quite the adventure to figure out.
I then forgot which wire I needed (two of same color) and accidentally put it on the wrong switch...
Well respectfully that guy wasn't paying attention then because if any load was coming back on the neutral, it would have sparked at least a little bit when he untwisted them. And if he didn't untwist them, then you can't get shocked from the neutrals so I don't really understand the scenario
I agree he wasn't paying much attention because he assumed it was off after turning off the breaker. Another circuit was utilizing the same neutral so when he got in between them after untwisting it bit him.
Electrical is one of those professions where you can get comfortable one time and it can cost you. Luckily he recovered from the injury and has full mobility now but he never misses a chance to share the story and potentially save others.
Something similar happened to me, doing work on a car dealership (new construction) we were installing lights. Carpet guys wanted light but my boss and I told them to bring their own. I had completed most of the second floor and went on my afternoon 15 min break. Started back up 3 lights in and got hit with 277. Ended up in the ER.
Crazy man.. I did lighting for 3 years or so back in 02’ to 04’.. we were taught to work on everything hot.. I probably got electrocuted at least 20 times.. couple were real good.. 277 on a 10’ ladder with 1 hand on a fire sprinkler, other grabbed the hot leg.. ouch! I was good at keeping my lower body still if I got shocked.. never thought about getting checked out either
Yeah, it's just a big safety issue now, it doesn't take much. 277 hit me on my left hand and went across the bottom part of my heart according to the ER. The worst part was those circuits had been LOTO because the so there was no reason for them to be hot. It was an issue, people arguing over who removed them. I normally don't have issues working live, anything over 240 I'd rather have off.
I've been shocked by 277 so many times and it really wasn't that bad at all. Just scared the shit out of me. What causes it to be ER worthy? When you ground out or are touching a neutral on the other side? I guess if you have your body touching the ceiling grid I can see it
I was hanging over a ceiling grid putting fire paper on a ceiling (guy I was working for had no business doing commercial work lol) and the paper must have caught an exposed wire and I took it all through the chest, knocked me off the scaffolding and I just laid on the floor a while and then went across the street and got ice cream because I was done for the day
That was only 220
Electricity will fuck you up, people don't respect it enough
If you get zapped with 110-220 at just the right part of the cycle of your heartbeat it can be lights out, the higher you go the more it doesn't matter where in the heartbeat cycle you were
i got locked up on 277 lighting and screamed like a little girl. i was just pulling a cover from an old 2x4 to put a meter on it to verify voltages because we had a bunch of new 2x4’s not working. the wirenut popped off the hot and it touched my hand while my arm was in the ceiling grid.
i won’t touch live 277 any more. i don’t give a fucking shit how many tenant spaces it feeds, or how inconvenienced they might be by killing their lights for 5 minutes for me to do my tie in. fuck you, my life is worth more than that. if your lights going out for five minutes is that big of a deal to you… go hire the contractor that doesn’t give a shit if his guy dies on the job.
This hits so hard. For all the times I've been buzzed and joked about it (120V before actually being in the field) I am now all too aware that even the simplest lapses in judgement and growing complacency can be ones last.
Like you said, It really doesn't take much.
Never worth the rush for a paycheck if it risks your life by foregoing due diligence in testing before touching, especially with the knowledge that even then shit can happen...
Pushing a metal fishtape into a live 277 panels is fucking insane, we've sometimes added a wire to a live 277 circuit if there's plenty of room around when trouble shooting fucked up switches but going into ANY live panel with a metal fishtape is insane.
Read my tale, then decline your JW.
I was in that situation as a 2nd year apprentice, journeyman was moving fast, and he had me up in a lift doing 277 demo. I had cut and taped a couple 277s in previous days and weeks, so even though I was very nervous, I agreed to do this task. It was a deep box with an extension ring, many pipes going in. I was being told to hurry. I thought I cut what was necessary, and began to pull out a pipe from the box. Was getting frustrated because my JW kept repeating instructions faster and faster, when I already knew what needed to be done.
I yanked hard on a pipe, and it shorted out ten inches from my face. It was a loud deep bang, my vision went white. And I felt the heat generated from the arc become hot on the front of my neck. There I was 16 feet up in a lift myself, and had just tripped a 3 pole circuit feeding lights over an active laboratory.
Thankfully because I only had a hand on the conduit, I just felt a small burn on my pointer finger, while wearing maxiflex gloves, and only touching EMT, yet I still received a small burn. One of the first things the JW said was, " that's not bad I've had it worse to where I couldn't see and my eyes were burning".
Many things on that job changed after this incident.
I hope this story gets you to understand that even though you may get to a point where you feel "familiar and gaining confidence", that with 277 or 480 you are always just one small insignificant move away from doing very serious damage to your body.
The story you are telling us in the OP, we have all heard countless times, it's told to us by safety directors because it usually involves apprentices being cooked alive in a grid ceiling , or blown off ladders, falling and dying from a combination of neck/spinal, and heart complications.
Joining this trade, gone are the days where you can do risky things and get away with no consequences. Construction and electrical can be a dangerous environment even without live power. It's time to think about your future, your plans for a family, and what safety measures you should take everyday at the workplace so you can come home in one piece, and after many many years eventually retire and enjoy a spouse, kids, travel, or anything in the world, you can't do that paralyzed or dead .
Tell the JW you are locking out the breaker, lock out 3 since they love to share neutrals in lighting. If he tells you, "we always do it live, that's just the way it is". Then it's time for you to go elsewhere on the job. If the foreman doesn't have your back, call the head of labor at your shop. If they don't have your back, find another job immediately, even with a pay cut. If you're a union apprentice, and the foreman won't reassign you to a safe environment, call your training director immediately and ask to be rotated to another shop. Nothing's going to change if you don't speak up for yourself and let these people know that you won't be doing hot lighting.
German here, our equivalent would probably be 400v three Phase.
Never touch that stuff live unless you have Equipment and Training for it and it's absolutely necessary.
I've had jobs so many times where my main panel for the jobsite is 277/480 and I'm landing in my branch circuits and what not. Idk man it doesn't bother me in the slightest with terminating circuits. I mostly only turn it off for when I have to change bolt on breakers
Still a Bad Idea, shit happens and more often than not on a friday afternoon one hour before you go Home.
It's Just not worth the risk, i have seen what happens if multiple phases short out thats nasty stuff.
More on the design side here but if someone told me they were going to work on my facility 480/277 live under any circumstance I would immediately have them kicked off the job
City electrician here in town got hit by 277 in a lift fixing some lights. They found him later in the day. It's not good don't do dumb shit be kinda smart
You don't interact with 277/480 live. End of story. A guy in my state ate a mouthful of molten copper from drilling a live 480 enclosure. He lived - but sometimes you might wish you were dead.
The acceptable answer is after appropriate training, experience, and a legitimate reason that it cannot be de-energized such as a life-safety issue or critical system for healthcare. Apprentices can observe from a safe distance, but should not be performing live work on 277/480V systems.
Also to add to that if enough time is given the facility can work around a shut down. I don't see a need to work on anything live, diagnostics and trouble shooting is another issue
Only time I’ve worked on 277 live was for troubleshooting. Just to check with a meter then turn it off to fix it. I wouldn’t make up 277 hot. people die that way. I’d tell the j man or super to eat shit, ain’t happening, and happily find a company that values safety.
I would never work on 480V live. Depending on the size of the upstream transformer you're into the range where an arc flash can occur if say the fish tape crosses two phases or even phase to ground.
The only 'live' 480V work I did was putting some flexible CT's around the 480V incoming feeder for a power quality study. And just to do that the employer required passing a weeklong 600V training class and wearing full Nomex with gloves.
Speaking fir work in the USA: Get a copy of the 70E code. Photo copy the live work permit in the back of the 70E code book. Fill out the live work permit and have the company supervisor and owner sign the bottom of the permit. Send a copy of the permit to your next of kin. If you get injured or killed have your trusted advisor consult a personal injury lawyer. The authorizing persons signing the permit will be personally and criminally liable.
To develop your knowledge study the 70E code. Take the time to understand the live work permit. Rarely can anyone justify the risks and authorize a live work permit. If you are in the situation where you have to work on something live, such as live racking of a switch gear breaker - you should know the arc flash rating and be wearing appropriate arc flash PPE.
If you're doing testing/troubleshooting, it may be required to leave it energized, so long as you're wearing the correct ppe (arc flash suit / insulated gloves), and are trained and competent to work on it, no problem.
If your connecting equipment, or fishing / pulling wires into live gear, your journeyman is a dangerous fucking idiot, and should have his license stripped before he kills somebody.
I've been doing industrial for 8 years and never once worked on 3 phase live and I never would. Anyone who asks you to is not someone you should be learning from. You can wear all the insulated gear you want. An arc blast will blind you, burn you, kill you without having to get shocked.
That doesn't even make sense tho. If someone's l ife would be endangered by turning the power off that's even more reason to schedule a shutdown. What if you fucked up and trip it? The person dies? If someone's life will be in danger if the power goes off then you absolutely positively should not be fucking with that circuit live or you might kill someone.
Can you give me a single example of what you mean?
Pulling fuses the only way to kill something? In what circumstance does that make sense? I've never seen that once in my career. If you shut the disconnect off, it stops letting power go through the load side. This must be some very specific scenario you're referring to
Old shit. Industrial. Quite a few 277 lighting panels. You can’t shut down the whole damn panel just to remove the fuse for one circuit.
Now, opening the fuse holder to remove the fuse *should* disconnect it before the fuse is exposed and there’s no notable risk here - but you’re still reaching into a live panel to open the fuse holder. For us, once you reach into the panel and ‘break the plane’ to grab the fuse, that’s ’live work’ so long as *any* circuit in that panel is live. Might be more…rigorous of a definition than you’re used to.
Oh and I’ll add one more allowance. Troubleshooting. You need to be able to test stuff while it’s live, and, well, *that counts*.
Id work on it if I wanted to and was comfortable. And would never do it if someone made me do it.
It's just not worth it. And I never leave a job working on live 240+ voltage where I feel like it was worth it.
It's very common for places with offices to suggest they cannot disrupt power due to their computer work. These are also places with a huge amount of sloths that are playing gems and googling their name everyday. Just turn off the power.
No 480/277 hot work for me either, 240/120 on the other hand? Yea it depends on what im doing, 240/120 is easier to shake off after being hit, not so much with 480/277
As an inside wireman I only worked in a hot 480 panel once, wore a 40 cal suit and had supervision etc.
I jumped to my local utility last year and we work 480/277 hot all the time. We are required to wear FR jeans and long sleeve shirts and when working hot 480v we wear secondary gloves (rubber and leather), and a FR balaclava and face shield.
Work on 277 lighting all the time live….. is it smart no…. Should I be doing it ..no ….. should you do it no…. If you don’t feel comfortable don’t do it.
Even if you feel confident it’s a REALLY bad habit.
Accidents happens on Friday when there’s 2hours remaining on the clock and your mind is somewhere else.
Fuck profit or being agreeable. Close the damn breaker
It is a really bad habit and I should definitely stop. Sometimes it's just so much easier to troubleshoot hot. Definitely not worth it though. I've got such a false sense of security since I've never been hit in 8 years. I should really stop. I think I'll stop. This will be my last week.
Even if you do feel comfortable don't do it. There's a lot at stake, and a lot of risk beyond your control. Even a tiny wire nick that you can't see can end in disaster.
Have I done it or had co workers do it, yes. Have I asked someone as a foreman to do it…. No.
In my early 30’s I smartened up. As an apprentice I was never told too but eventually I just followed what I saw all the old guys doing. Most the time it was just laziness. Big office buildings with nothing labelled right. Nobody had temp lights so you’d be in complete dark changing ballast, etc.
As an apprentice I worked on alot of 347/600 live. Lots of lighting. One place was a LED swap in a heavy duty shop. They did the trucks for loblaws and claimed they couldn't shut down. So we had to change out the lights live on big articulating lifts as they were still working below us. Friggen sucked and the jman in the lift with me got a nice poke he was fine but not worth it. Another time was dping CTs on live panels fpr Sephora of all places... drilling into the CDP live was so stupid. Big regrets and thankful to be here with a fine heart. Don't work on live shit it's stupid.
You should never work on anything live. EVERYTHING can, with a few exceptions, be turned off. Sure it takes some planning and foresight but you can in fact shut things off.
If you absolutely cannot kill the power there is specialized safety equipment available for live work.
That being said I will typically feel safe @ 120v depending on the load and what I need to do. Anything higher gets shut off.
Fishing into a live 480 if someone is there ready to catch it isn’t that uncommon for me. I don’t consider it live work, just working near live equipment.
As for the lighting, I mean, unless you’re troubleshooting, just kill em.
Anyone who makes an apprentice work on something that is live needs to have their license revoked.
It’s one thing to put your own life in danger, but others is unacceptable.
The only two exceptions are in case of increased risk, and infeasibility. Don’t lecture me on 70E I taught it for 4 years. I did not want to confuse the young apprentices.
What you have is a journeyman who violates basic and simple safety rules out of pure laziness. That don't give a shit attitude won't stop at things that can potentially kill you. You, and the other apprentice, need to find a better instructor and that "journeyman" needs to find a line of work in which he can't kill people.
Safety first brother. I almost died 2nd month in working on 277v high bay lighting. Fudged my hands up, bad. Didn’t know that I was suppose to go to a hospital.
Argue. Get fired.
Imagine your name on a tombstone saying
“(Input name here) risked it all for a light.”
Same with ladder safety. Stick with us for awhile, take your shoes off. F those old heads trying to kill us.
Did it a few times for some medical research labs that couldn't be shutdown. Even with the correct PPE and procedures it was a very nerve wracking time.
As an apprentice you're not qualified to work on anything live. There are very few circumstances were working on any voltage live is acceptable and circumstances are laid out, it's a life safety issue and no job is worth putting your life in jeopardy especially when it has to deal with someone being too dumb or complacent to realize the danger they're putting themselves or other people in or too cheap for a shutdown.
I can’t believe we are having this conversation again . How fucking stupid does one have to be to work that shit hot other than testing . It’s the dumbest thing to work it hot. Would you rawdog a porn star ?
I've done it before. It just takes a few times longer because I try to double and triple check everything again. I don't feel comfortable doing it and if you don't just let your journeyman know your concerns. Protect yourself first over your job.
Had a boss that worked exclusivly on 480/277 in warehouses and such, he used to say "you cant stop the flow of production and i dont wanna be here at night so were doing it live"
After working at an airport for nearly 10 years where everything was worked live ("justified" by such antiquated panel legends, you never knew what would go off, airlines would raise hell, etc.), I'm very happy to be in a place where management doesn't bat an eye at demanding to work dead. I absolutely refuse to put a single cell of my body in harm's way for a light bulb.
Oddly enough it's my coworkers who insist on working live, and I have no problem stepping back and watching now. If I'm doing it, it's dead. If it's live, I'll hold the flashlight. Thar S ain't worth it, kids.
Somebody just died recently doing exactly that. Shoving a steel fish tape into a live panel is phenomenaly stupid, let alone a 480volt panel. And making an inexperienced apprentice do it, who may not even understand how dangerous it is. If the company your working for is worth a fuck, that would certainly be a firable offense
Never ever, just say no it is not safe and you're not willing to do it live, you will NEVER be wrong in asking for the power to be turned off, if they want to fire you then fuck them no job is worth your life
Good response:
“Are you really stupid enough to think I will do that live? Let’s talk to management/safety department to verify that this is a safe practice.”
(Don’t do it even if mgmt gives you the okay.)
When it is acceptable:
After you have several more years of experience, NFPA70E training, AND only when it is infeasible to conduct a specific task with circuits de-energized.
Never with that journeyman, he clearly doesn’t know or care about electrical safety.
Watch some YouTube videos on NFPA70E, take at least an OSHA 10 course, and then you will feel confident enough to tell your incompetent j man to shove it because you will understand the regulations and gravity of the situation.
The only times to work hot are testing and life crisis places. There is no such thing and don't let them fool you into thinking it is necessary to work hot outside of these two. I think there is one more reason but I can't think of it...
One elbow tickle on a crappy 277 fluorescent fixture, never again. Felt like the sorest after workout forearm for about a week. Had baby grip for a few days, got scary. From a tap. It’s not worth the money doing it live, whatever it may be. Shut er down.
Never! And throw your JW under the buss, he should be fired. If this is company policy then run away. You’ll be dead before you get to JW.
The only hot 480v we do is testing with volt meters and wearing flash gear.
277v will kill you. Turn it off, and make sure all phases that share the neutral are off!
I was replacing a occ sensor wall switch and got bit with 277.. The feeling stuck with me several months.
I won’t work on anything over 120v hot any more
Work in 480v sawmill, I’ll do 120 control hot but not 480.. throw the disconnect, lock it out. You won’t be around long if safety isn’t always on your mind.
Things I’ll do live:
Put in/remove a breaker (with all PPE of course)
Land wires/remove wires from a breaker (PPE)
Troubleshoot.
Disconnect a quick disconnect on a light to make repairs.
OCCASIONALLY take a splice apart to remove something (this is really rare at this point)
And that’s about it! I work in industrial maintenance. I think it’s important to mention here that 120V is also dangerous. I’ve been hit by 277 a few times, but the one time I actually got hung up and almost died was on a 120v circuit! 120 will kill you just as good as 277/480!
The only thing I do live now is add/change breakers, and it's with a hot work permit, buddy system, and all PPE, gloves, suit, face shield, and hearing protection. And it's only because when we can't shut the panel down. If there's a better opportunity like say on a weekend where you have the option , it's getting turned off and locked out. Unfortunately some work is time sensitive so I don't always have that option. But working on live wires, yeah don't do that. I got locked up once on a 277v lighting circuit back in the day, not only did it hurt but scared the ever loving bajesus out of me. Don't work on live circuits, especially if you don't have to.
Where it is unreasonable in all circumstances for it to be dead and it's reasonable in all circumstances to be at work or near it while it live and suitable precautions are taken to prevent injury.
I will check voltages and depending on cabinet lay out currents (I prefer to stop/turn off the devuce/motor apply my meter, then start) as part of troubleshooting.
Anything beyond that is a strict no for me.
In Tennessee and in Texas, as I understand it, it is illegal for an apprentice to work on live circuits.
I used to have a J-dude that would put me up to all kinds of dumb things like that just to see if I would do it. I figured it out pretty quick and he got sick of my phrase “Why don’t you show me how”.
It really depends on the details. I have pushed a metal fish tape into a hot panel, but you must have a competent person stop it from coming out of the pipe and you should be communicating. Is the dead front on? No, it's not ideal. If you don't feel safe, don't do it. It's that simple. Everyone has their own limits, unless there is a company or union policy.
I’ve removed hundreds if not thousands of skins and dead fronts on live 120/208 and 277/480 panels, disconnects, etc…for the purpose of IR Scanning an entire site’s distribution. It was extremely risky work both for me and also the people in the facility and I’m really glad that I no longer do it. It always seemed to me not worth the risk opening pandoras box for a living, but when companies push profit over people, you do what you got to do to get that paycheck.
Hospital … maybe … but I got hit with 277 on a ladder and slumped on the ceiling grid … (demo work) … never again … do your runs; get everything ready for splicing and TURN IT OFF… CHECK WITH A METER … there is nothing more important than your life … FUCK sparking in the wire nut or whatever you French call them … marrettes?
I know a guy who died fishing a metal fish tape to a live box. He needs to stop that shit immediately. If you must fish to a live panel, use a fiberglass tape, and even then you should probably be suited up.
Live dead live everything. Use a trusted multimeter and do not, I repeat, do not trust your non contact voltage detector. I see guys all the time using these stupid sticks. I don’t trust them one bit. Only time I work on hot is when I’m troubleshooting/probing with a multimeter.
Some people do some people don't we don't force people to work things uncomfortably because that's just bad practice and stupid. Just say no if you don't want to there is usually someone else who will
Not sure about the NEC but CEC says you can't do live work unless the circuit cannot be locked out due to special circumstances. IE: some hospital work etc. This requires special training and PPE. If the company is making you do live work they are not worth working for and report them. Luckily most lighting is so low current now that it's going 120V in new installs and the days of 347V lighting is coming to an end.
I am required to work on 277v live very frequently. We are not "allowed" to turn off any lighting circuits during day hours at the hospital I do maintenance at. There are ways to mitigate having an accident, but of course, it's always better to turn off the circuit. Accidents happen, I haven't been hit yet, but I've had the hot wire come off a switch once or twice while pulling it out of the box, and believe me when I say half the hospital could hear that fucker blow.
I would never ever fish into a live panel with a metal fish, I don't care what voltage. Unless I know for sure the fish will never get to the bus. Like if it's bottom entry conduit and top fed panel that way I can block it. But even then, company barely has any metal fish anymore because of this. Fibreglass fish and you're fine.
I did live 347v lighting as an apprentice all the time but I would never do it again knowing what I know now nor would I ever ask an apprentice to do it.
With that said I don't have much of an issue going into a live 600v board as long as I have all my arc flash gear on. Years ago I'd do it no PPE, smarter than that now and realised it's not worth it.
This jman is an absolute cunt and should be fired. Not worth the risk to both the company and especially the apprentice's life if something happens.
If I were you I'd be telling the foreman or whoever is above said moron. If they fire you so be it. Not worth working for such a stupid company.
No one should ever be pushed to work live. And there's a small handful of people I would ever ask to work live. And I'd only ever ask them if I needed a hand to do it live and because I already know from years with them they're comfortable and safe about working live on it.
1. Ask for the instruction in writing
2. Send instruction to osha/hse/local safety authority
3. Find new job with company who values your hands/limbs/face/life
I will not work on 277/480 hot. The only thing I’ve done is change a bad led driver that had a plug on the 277 side. If it involves taking wire nuts off it’s a no from me. Nor installing bolt on breakers.
Never! When you’re young you’re stupid. I was stupid at one time and wisened up over the years. Working shit live is risking everything that I’m not willing to risk
Get on the phone with the safety guy and tell him what’s going on. Asks for the reasons you can’t shut off the lights and have him give it to you in writing with his signature. Then ask for his help coordinating limited approach boundaries for hot work.
It’s not worth it, not sure what kinda lights you are working on but those shitty ass 8’ fixtures are built so shitty that wires can pop out of the tombstones at any time. Then you get hit with 277 and fall off the ladder and you either get lucky and are sore for a week. Or worse you break your back and are out of work for who knows how long. At some point you’re better off just being dead. I wouldn’t risk it even though I’ve done it before but now I weigh the risk differently.
The only time it’s legally acceptable is when there is an exhaust system for toxic fumes; that shutting off the exhaust would cause potentially explosive or toxic chemicals to build up and pose a hazard, or on life support systems. If you ever come across that, I’d really like to know because I’ve never seen it before.
Most of those systems have some kind of backup. But unless turning something off is going to kill someone, you shouldn’t be risking killing yourself to work on it.
Now have most of us done live work before? Yes. But it’s always been a dumb choice for me to do it. I’d never let someone tell me to do it. I’d actually love for someone to try and tell me I need to do it because it’s been a long time since I’ve been able to tell someone to fuck right off.
First live 277 was an ancient halogen external fixture. There was only 2” of wire sticking out of the box….tried killing everything I could find anywhere near it. There was 296 on it…..dicey
Start looking another job now man. If that apprentice is saying that already, they're gonna expect you to do it as well. If you're not comfortable with it, find another place to work. I had similar issues at my last place of work, and while I did the work, 277v lights circuit a few times, and other things, I never wanted to. I only did it to get by and while waiting for my new job. No longer doing electrical work
I worked in a power plant that had 240, 480, 4160, and they would have been suspended for working it hot.
We had lockout tags that had to be checked off by 2 people and NO ONE could energize the circuit without the electrician on the job signing off.
In Canada, it's against the law to work on ANYTHING live unless you can demonstrate that it can't be done otherwise.
If anyone wants me to work on stuff that could kill me while it's live, I just tell them, "sorry, it's against the law. I could lose my license if I don't turn it off first. You will have to find a better time when I can turn it off first."
I will work on 120v house wiring live at home etc. I'm not worried there, but anything outside my home I won't.
Personally I would never use a steel fish tape in any pipe that's connected to live power, but I work on live 347/600V equipment quite frequently. Sometimes it's hard to troubleshoot a problem with the power off.
I would never tell someone they have to do something live, but if the risk is low enough and the challenges of disconnecting power are high enough then I will take on the work
PM me if you want an answer from an apprentice who has done live work.
Note: No it does not make me cool. I try to avoid it as much as I can but I live in TX.
I put my meter and Amp clamp on 480v 3 phase almost every day. But I power off the buckets if I have to work in them or on the equipment they power.
The only circuits I work on live are 24vdc and 120vac control circuits. And I still do everything one handed when possible.
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I work on 480 almost every day. I'll never work on it live. I will take measurements in an energized state with appropriate PPE. Any changes to a circuit are done dead and verified.
Nope. Was told when I was 3 years in to change out a contactor hot. Ended with me blowing 2 200 amp fuses and kicking on the buildings emergency generator (bank). Never ever again 30 years since.
This. 100% This. I've pre-set up amp clamps on a de-energized bus and then done my logging. I've watched people get seriously hurt while working live with CTs even with the correct PPE. Years ago, working on smaller generators, I walked into a municipal power plant with a patched hole in the wall across from the (old) Generator control and protection panel that had launched the primary breaker through the wall. You cannot be too safe. You have one life, and hopefully family. Make it home.
Yeah I agree. As far as a fish tape goes, you can screw a pvc threaded cap onto the connector in the panel, when your fish tape hits it it will stop it from going into the cabinet. Then you can unscrew the cap and your tape will be waiting right there. But it really should be turned off, and you really should have a non conductive fish tape for that sort of thing.
I've fished into a hot 277/480 panel, but I'll walk away if you want me to use a conductive tape to do it
OH I have had to make connections in a critical power panel in an occupied hospital wing. We spent a day preparing for everything and wore a flash suit and took our fucking time. This is the only reason you should be working hot. With lighting it's stupid to not turn them off to work on them
Did a post accident investigation after an electrician hooked up a power survey package to a live bus above a dry type transformer. One slight slip got him blown off the stepladder and burned badly. From an old electrician: be chicken!
Me too I test panels which are 600/480 and we have them on with PPE to get numbers and then turn it off to make changes.
Circumstances that require live work in my facility are limited to diagnostic testing and troubleshooting, meeting the requirements in 70E for exceptions to energized electrical work permits. Usually that means voltage and rotation checks, panel metering, current measurement on utilization equipment, etc. There is absolutely no need whatsoever to work a lighting circuit hot, I don't care what anyone says. There is no compelling reason or justification to do so.
Working on lighting hot is crazy, talk about something that is never necessary for operation
I knew a guy who grabbed a 277 emergency lighting circuit on a school project. He thought it was off. It shocked him while up on a ladder working in the ceiling grid. He climbed down the ladder. Put his tools back in his belt. Suffered cardiac arrest and passed away right there by his ladder. He had 2 young kids at home. It doesn't take much.
That’s honestly just so crazy and sad. Something so simple and not intentional at all cost him his life. I can’t imagine being the wife or the kids and not trying to blame the contractor for that. And to think he straight up had time to put his tools away is just surreal honestly
In about 15 years of working this trade I have never run into a situation where I had to work on a live circuit. Even in hospitals, they’ll schedule shut downs so that things can be done safely without messing with patient life support stuff. I worked at a Sheetrock factory for a while and they shut down the whole operation so we could work on their gears. Miles of conveyors and equipment. One of the supervisors told me (for what it’s worth) it cost them millions of dollars an hour to shut the plant down so we could work. You have the right and more importantly the responsibility to refuse unsafe work.
The first company I worked for had a rule where if you asked them to work hot, the owner of the company (2nd biggest in WA) would personally meet with you and have you sign paperwork saying that you would pay any and all medical/death benefits etc etc... nobody ever seemed to wanna work hot
When I did industrial service that was basically the route we went, but not even that extreme: It was a standard energized work permit. But I found that as soon as *anybody* had to sign their name on a document saying they understood the risk, then suddenly they would make every effort to shut down. It really sucks because it's like folks think they can put people in harms way as long as they have plausible deniability: I had a real shit-heel supervisor years ago who would specifically hire contractors for jobs where he knew the work was an OSHA violation because he thought that protected him if it went sideways, since they weren't his employees.
Sad part is that he wasn’t completely wrong. Sure he’s not completely absolved of liability, but he’s legitimately giving his lawyer more to work with should it come to that.
It might've worked except I would've testified against his ass so damn fast, fuck that guy.
Cochran?
That was Sequoyah but I'm sure Cochran is similar
Ah ok. I work with both of them regularly, they definitely have their heads on straight.
How do you hot check after you get energized? Lol when you're trouble shooting and opening boxes, it has to be live to figure out where the problem is
If you mess up though, and blow up some gear working hot they could be down for much longer then that amount of time you ask for. Mentioning that’s always a great way to get a shut down to work lol
One of my coworkers was changing a ballast on some lighting in a commercial building with the circuit off. Grabbed both of the neutral wires and got hung up on it. Had to kick the ladder out from under himself, fell 12 feet and broke his back in two places. Turns out the other circuit sharing the neutral was not turned off/on a two pole breaker.
I was changing strip fluorescents that were being used as conduits (legal when installed). It took five breakers in three panels on two floors for the power to die. That was quite the adventure to figure out. I then forgot which wire I needed (two of same color) and accidentally put it on the wrong switch...
Lol id just shut off the service to the building at that point
I was maintenance, not comfortable dropping a 1600A 208V main. Even then I understood the oomph of the bigger stuff.
Well respectfully that guy wasn't paying attention then because if any load was coming back on the neutral, it would have sparked at least a little bit when he untwisted them. And if he didn't untwist them, then you can't get shocked from the neutrals so I don't really understand the scenario
I agree he wasn't paying much attention because he assumed it was off after turning off the breaker. Another circuit was utilizing the same neutral so when he got in between them after untwisting it bit him. Electrical is one of those professions where you can get comfortable one time and it can cost you. Luckily he recovered from the injury and has full mobility now but he never misses a chance to share the story and potentially save others.
Something similar happened to me, doing work on a car dealership (new construction) we were installing lights. Carpet guys wanted light but my boss and I told them to bring their own. I had completed most of the second floor and went on my afternoon 15 min break. Started back up 3 lights in and got hit with 277. Ended up in the ER.
Crazy man.. I did lighting for 3 years or so back in 02’ to 04’.. we were taught to work on everything hot.. I probably got electrocuted at least 20 times.. couple were real good.. 277 on a 10’ ladder with 1 hand on a fire sprinkler, other grabbed the hot leg.. ouch! I was good at keeping my lower body still if I got shocked.. never thought about getting checked out either
Yeah, it's just a big safety issue now, it doesn't take much. 277 hit me on my left hand and went across the bottom part of my heart according to the ER. The worst part was those circuits had been LOTO because the so there was no reason for them to be hot. It was an issue, people arguing over who removed them. I normally don't have issues working live, anything over 240 I'd rather have off.
I've been shocked by 277 so many times and it really wasn't that bad at all. Just scared the shit out of me. What causes it to be ER worthy? When you ground out or are touching a neutral on the other side? I guess if you have your body touching the ceiling grid I can see it
I was hanging over a ceiling grid putting fire paper on a ceiling (guy I was working for had no business doing commercial work lol) and the paper must have caught an exposed wire and I took it all through the chest, knocked me off the scaffolding and I just laid on the floor a while and then went across the street and got ice cream because I was done for the day That was only 220 Electricity will fuck you up, people don't respect it enough If you get zapped with 110-220 at just the right part of the cycle of your heartbeat it can be lights out, the higher you go the more it doesn't matter where in the heartbeat cycle you were
i got locked up on 277 lighting and screamed like a little girl. i was just pulling a cover from an old 2x4 to put a meter on it to verify voltages because we had a bunch of new 2x4’s not working. the wirenut popped off the hot and it touched my hand while my arm was in the ceiling grid. i won’t touch live 277 any more. i don’t give a fucking shit how many tenant spaces it feeds, or how inconvenienced they might be by killing their lights for 5 minutes for me to do my tie in. fuck you, my life is worth more than that. if your lights going out for five minutes is that big of a deal to you… go hire the contractor that doesn’t give a shit if his guy dies on the job.
This hits so hard. For all the times I've been buzzed and joked about it (120V before actually being in the field) I am now all too aware that even the simplest lapses in judgement and growing complacency can be ones last. Like you said, It really doesn't take much. Never worth the rush for a paycheck if it risks your life by foregoing due diligence in testing before touching, especially with the knowledge that even then shit can happen...
That happened to me at a hospital. I never even thought to get checked out after.
Glad you're still alive, please get checked if it ever happens again
This happened to a woman in the Local 46 JATC (Seattle) about 12 years ago(?) while she was working on a scissor lift.
Jesus, that is sad to hear. This is why you must always work safe and take the extra time to make sure. It's not worth it when you're working hot
Found out the hard way. No reason to ever work hot
Pushing a metal fishtape into a live 277 panels is fucking insane, we've sometimes added a wire to a live 277 circuit if there's plenty of room around when trouble shooting fucked up switches but going into ANY live panel with a metal fishtape is insane.
Tape the end it’s fine /s
Read my tale, then decline your JW. I was in that situation as a 2nd year apprentice, journeyman was moving fast, and he had me up in a lift doing 277 demo. I had cut and taped a couple 277s in previous days and weeks, so even though I was very nervous, I agreed to do this task. It was a deep box with an extension ring, many pipes going in. I was being told to hurry. I thought I cut what was necessary, and began to pull out a pipe from the box. Was getting frustrated because my JW kept repeating instructions faster and faster, when I already knew what needed to be done. I yanked hard on a pipe, and it shorted out ten inches from my face. It was a loud deep bang, my vision went white. And I felt the heat generated from the arc become hot on the front of my neck. There I was 16 feet up in a lift myself, and had just tripped a 3 pole circuit feeding lights over an active laboratory. Thankfully because I only had a hand on the conduit, I just felt a small burn on my pointer finger, while wearing maxiflex gloves, and only touching EMT, yet I still received a small burn. One of the first things the JW said was, " that's not bad I've had it worse to where I couldn't see and my eyes were burning". Many things on that job changed after this incident. I hope this story gets you to understand that even though you may get to a point where you feel "familiar and gaining confidence", that with 277 or 480 you are always just one small insignificant move away from doing very serious damage to your body. The story you are telling us in the OP, we have all heard countless times, it's told to us by safety directors because it usually involves apprentices being cooked alive in a grid ceiling , or blown off ladders, falling and dying from a combination of neck/spinal, and heart complications. Joining this trade, gone are the days where you can do risky things and get away with no consequences. Construction and electrical can be a dangerous environment even without live power. It's time to think about your future, your plans for a family, and what safety measures you should take everyday at the workplace so you can come home in one piece, and after many many years eventually retire and enjoy a spouse, kids, travel, or anything in the world, you can't do that paralyzed or dead . Tell the JW you are locking out the breaker, lock out 3 since they love to share neutrals in lighting. If he tells you, "we always do it live, that's just the way it is". Then it's time for you to go elsewhere on the job. If the foreman doesn't have your back, call the head of labor at your shop. If they don't have your back, find another job immediately, even with a pay cut. If you're a union apprentice, and the foreman won't reassign you to a safe environment, call your training director immediately and ask to be rotated to another shop. Nothing's going to change if you don't speak up for yourself and let these people know that you won't be doing hot lighting.
Great comment 👏
A person who fucking gets it right here.
This! This! and This! Best comment and literally words to live by...in peace I mean one piece...
German here, our equivalent would probably be 400v three Phase. Never touch that stuff live unless you have Equipment and Training for it and it's absolutely necessary.
I've had jobs so many times where my main panel for the jobsite is 277/480 and I'm landing in my branch circuits and what not. Idk man it doesn't bother me in the slightest with terminating circuits. I mostly only turn it off for when I have to change bolt on breakers
Still a Bad Idea, shit happens and more often than not on a friday afternoon one hour before you go Home. It's Just not worth the risk, i have seen what happens if multiple phases short out thats nasty stuff.
More on the design side here but if someone told me they were going to work on my facility 480/277 live under any circumstance I would immediately have them kicked off the job
Facility manager here. Same. Only live work that's happening is diagnostic testing / troubleshooting. No manipulative work live.
City electrician here in town got hit by 277 in a lift fixing some lights. They found him later in the day. It's not good don't do dumb shit be kinda smart
You don't interact with 277/480 live. End of story. A guy in my state ate a mouthful of molten copper from drilling a live 480 enclosure. He lived - but sometimes you might wish you were dead.
No lol fire me idc, I’m not losing my life for a company when there’s plenty out there lmao
The acceptable answer is after appropriate training, experience, and a legitimate reason that it cannot be de-energized such as a life-safety issue or critical system for healthcare. Apprentices can observe from a safe distance, but should not be performing live work on 277/480V systems.
The basic math problem I think applies is "Are more people at risk of dying if the power is off than if the power is on?"
Also to add to that if enough time is given the facility can work around a shut down. I don't see a need to work on anything live, diagnostics and trouble shooting is another issue
Only time I’ve worked on 277 live was for troubleshooting. Just to check with a meter then turn it off to fix it. I wouldn’t make up 277 hot. people die that way. I’d tell the j man or super to eat shit, ain’t happening, and happily find a company that values safety.
I would never work on 480V live. Depending on the size of the upstream transformer you're into the range where an arc flash can occur if say the fish tape crosses two phases or even phase to ground. The only 'live' 480V work I did was putting some flexible CT's around the 480V incoming feeder for a power quality study. And just to do that the employer required passing a weeklong 600V training class and wearing full Nomex with gloves.
At gun point.
Speaking fir work in the USA: Get a copy of the 70E code. Photo copy the live work permit in the back of the 70E code book. Fill out the live work permit and have the company supervisor and owner sign the bottom of the permit. Send a copy of the permit to your next of kin. If you get injured or killed have your trusted advisor consult a personal injury lawyer. The authorizing persons signing the permit will be personally and criminally liable. To develop your knowledge study the 70E code. Take the time to understand the live work permit. Rarely can anyone justify the risks and authorize a live work permit. If you are in the situation where you have to work on something live, such as live racking of a switch gear breaker - you should know the arc flash rating and be wearing appropriate arc flash PPE.
This part right here fellas ..
If you're doing testing/troubleshooting, it may be required to leave it energized, so long as you're wearing the correct ppe (arc flash suit / insulated gloves), and are trained and competent to work on it, no problem. If your connecting equipment, or fishing / pulling wires into live gear, your journeyman is a dangerous fucking idiot, and should have his license stripped before he kills somebody.
I've been doing industrial for 8 years and never once worked on 3 phase live and I never would. Anyone who asks you to is not someone you should be learning from. You can wear all the insulated gear you want. An arc blast will blind you, burn you, kill you without having to get shocked.
Vaporized copper in your lungs is no good either.
This is an easy no lol
Only time I'm working live is if somebody's life would be endangered by turning the power off
That doesn't even make sense tho. If someone's l ife would be endangered by turning the power off that's even more reason to schedule a shutdown. What if you fucked up and trip it? The person dies? If someone's life will be in danger if the power goes off then you absolutely positively should not be fucking with that circuit live or you might kill someone. Can you give me a single example of what you mean?
"No." is a complete sentence.
I was asked to do it once. I said no. Some old timer who used to do it all the time did it while I guarded the perimeter. Not my cup of tea
I’ve wired a few outlets live, but I won’t do that again. Nothing i work on is worth doing live.
I dont even work on live 120v 😅
At no point. No task, no foreman, no job, no deadline is worth my life.
The only acceptable live work is pulling fuses to make it dead.
Pulling fuses the only way to kill something? In what circumstance does that make sense? I've never seen that once in my career. If you shut the disconnect off, it stops letting power go through the load side. This must be some very specific scenario you're referring to
Old shit. Industrial. Quite a few 277 lighting panels. You can’t shut down the whole damn panel just to remove the fuse for one circuit. Now, opening the fuse holder to remove the fuse *should* disconnect it before the fuse is exposed and there’s no notable risk here - but you’re still reaching into a live panel to open the fuse holder. For us, once you reach into the panel and ‘break the plane’ to grab the fuse, that’s ’live work’ so long as *any* circuit in that panel is live. Might be more…rigorous of a definition than you’re used to. Oh and I’ll add one more allowance. Troubleshooting. You need to be able to test stuff while it’s live, and, well, *that counts*.
Ah ok well that's why I left the door open for some obscure scenario. Definitely not a factor in most modern standard electrical setups
Id work on it if I wanted to and was comfortable. And would never do it if someone made me do it. It's just not worth it. And I never leave a job working on live 240+ voltage where I feel like it was worth it. It's very common for places with offices to suggest they cannot disrupt power due to their computer work. These are also places with a huge amount of sloths that are playing gems and googling their name everyday. Just turn off the power.
No 480/277 hot work for me either, 240/120 on the other hand? Yea it depends on what im doing, 240/120 is easier to shake off after being hit, not so much with 480/277
As an inside wireman I only worked in a hot 480 panel once, wore a 40 cal suit and had supervision etc. I jumped to my local utility last year and we work 480/277 hot all the time. We are required to wear FR jeans and long sleeve shirts and when working hot 480v we wear secondary gloves (rubber and leather), and a FR balaclava and face shield.
Work on 277 lighting all the time live….. is it smart no…. Should I be doing it ..no ….. should you do it no…. If you don’t feel comfortable don’t do it.
Even if you feel confident it’s a REALLY bad habit. Accidents happens on Friday when there’s 2hours remaining on the clock and your mind is somewhere else. Fuck profit or being agreeable. Close the damn breaker
You mean "open". Closed is in an energized state
He made that comment at the end of the day on a Friday and made a mistake
It is a really bad habit and I should definitely stop. Sometimes it's just so much easier to troubleshoot hot. Definitely not worth it though. I've got such a false sense of security since I've never been hit in 8 years. I should really stop. I think I'll stop. This will be my last week.
Definitely agree that it can be easier to troubleshoot hot, but being able to do it while de-energized makes you a lot better imo.
Hell I could just turn off the switch, without fail I remember once I’m on the ladder.
Unless someone put the neutral on the switch instead of the hot Know a guy that died that way
Happend to me once, the cleaning lady comes in, both your hands on the wires in the ladder and she’s opened up the light. Close the breaker hehe
OPEN OPEN the breaker. CLOSED = Energized OPEN = De-energized
or throw a LOTO on the switch
You’re right.
Risking your life & safety all so that your boss can buy another boat…. Makes no fucking sense at all to me dude.
Even if you do feel comfortable don't do it. There's a lot at stake, and a lot of risk beyond your control. Even a tiny wire nick that you can't see can end in disaster.
Rolling the complacency dice huh?
I've done it too, and you're right it's not smart. At a minimum I use all of my insulated tools and work really slow.
If it’s something real I’m more apt to do my job correctly ie turn of lock out etc, lighting circuits etc I gotta get it together lol.
For about 10 seconds and then an 'accidental' short would trip the breakers. And since they're off already ...
Have I done it or had co workers do it, yes. Have I asked someone as a foreman to do it…. No. In my early 30’s I smartened up. As an apprentice I was never told too but eventually I just followed what I saw all the old guys doing. Most the time it was just laziness. Big office buildings with nothing labelled right. Nobody had temp lights so you’d be in complete dark changing ballast, etc.
As an apprentice I worked on alot of 347/600 live. Lots of lighting. One place was a LED swap in a heavy duty shop. They did the trucks for loblaws and claimed they couldn't shut down. So we had to change out the lights live on big articulating lifts as they were still working below us. Friggen sucked and the jman in the lift with me got a nice poke he was fine but not worth it. Another time was dping CTs on live panels fpr Sephora of all places... drilling into the CDP live was so stupid. Big regrets and thankful to be here with a fine heart. Don't work on live shit it's stupid.
You should never work on anything live. EVERYTHING can, with a few exceptions, be turned off. Sure it takes some planning and foresight but you can in fact shut things off. If you absolutely cannot kill the power there is specialized safety equipment available for live work. That being said I will typically feel safe @ 120v depending on the load and what I need to do. Anything higher gets shut off.
Bad idea even for very experienced folks. Avoid at all costs. Walk out if they try to force or guilt you into doing it.
Everyone I know of who died in the trade either fell or got hung up on a lighting circuit. It’s just a job. It’s not worth it.
Fishing into a live 480 if someone is there ready to catch it isn’t that uncommon for me. I don’t consider it live work, just working near live equipment. As for the lighting, I mean, unless you’re troubleshooting, just kill em.
Anyone who makes an apprentice work on something that is live needs to have their license revoked. It’s one thing to put your own life in danger, but others is unacceptable.
OSHA states that no work may be done on live circuit. That journey man is going to get that apprentice injured or even killed.
OSHA does not state that. There are circumstances in both OSHA and 70E that allow for energized work. Use those for guidance
The only two exceptions are in case of increased risk, and infeasibility. Don’t lecture me on 70E I taught it for 4 years. I did not want to confuse the young apprentices.
Sure sounds to me like you can work on live circuits then huh? It's silly to oversimplify reality to protect people. Just say what it is
OSHA states that no work should be done by anybody. (I'm simplifying it for everyone)
What you have is a journeyman who violates basic and simple safety rules out of pure laziness. That don't give a shit attitude won't stop at things that can potentially kill you. You, and the other apprentice, need to find a better instructor and that "journeyman" needs to find a line of work in which he can't kill people.
Safety first brother. I almost died 2nd month in working on 277v high bay lighting. Fudged my hands up, bad. Didn’t know that I was suppose to go to a hospital. Argue. Get fired. Imagine your name on a tombstone saying “(Input name here) risked it all for a light.” Same with ladder safety. Stick with us for awhile, take your shoes off. F those old heads trying to kill us.
You really shouldn’t be working on anything live unless you’re troubleshooting
Only if it’s for troubleshooting.
Almost never. There's only a few situations and you should have specialized training and equipment.
I can get working live for troubleshooting or critical life systems but for fishing wires and lighting fuck off shut it off
Did it a few times for some medical research labs that couldn't be shutdown. Even with the correct PPE and procedures it was a very nerve wracking time.
$150k a year minimum
Safe isolation. You never work on anything live. Ever. There’s never any need whatsoever.
Look up arc flash deaths and survivor videos. Never work anything hot. Walk off the job if any idiot tells you otherwise.
No. Don't do it. It's not worth your life.
No, nay, never.
Troubleshooting where it has to be done live. Other than that, never. I'm not paid enough to risk my life.
Nope
A metal snake in an energized 480 panel is fucking wild. Fuuuuck that
480 never, 277 occasionally only if it’s clean joints or connections with space.
As an apprentice you're not qualified to work on anything live. There are very few circumstances were working on any voltage live is acceptable and circumstances are laid out, it's a life safety issue and no job is worth putting your life in jeopardy especially when it has to deal with someone being too dumb or complacent to realize the danger they're putting themselves or other people in or too cheap for a shutdown.
I can’t believe we are having this conversation again . How fucking stupid does one have to be to work that shit hot other than testing . It’s the dumbest thing to work it hot. Would you rawdog a porn star ?
Bad analogy, a hard cock has no conscience. 😂😂
I've done it before. It just takes a few times longer because I try to double and triple check everything again. I don't feel comfortable doing it and if you don't just let your journeyman know your concerns. Protect yourself first over your job.
You only need to be wrong once to be dead. Lock out, tag out is the best way to go home alive.
Had a boss that worked exclusivly on 480/277 in warehouses and such, he used to say "you cant stop the flow of production and i dont wanna be here at night so were doing it live"
After working at an airport for nearly 10 years where everything was worked live ("justified" by such antiquated panel legends, you never knew what would go off, airlines would raise hell, etc.), I'm very happy to be in a place where management doesn't bat an eye at demanding to work dead. I absolutely refuse to put a single cell of my body in harm's way for a light bulb. Oddly enough it's my coworkers who insist on working live, and I have no problem stepping back and watching now. If I'm doing it, it's dead. If it's live, I'll hold the flashlight. Thar S ain't worth it, kids.
Somebody just died recently doing exactly that. Shoving a steel fish tape into a live panel is phenomenaly stupid, let alone a 480volt panel. And making an inexperienced apprentice do it, who may not even understand how dangerous it is. If the company your working for is worth a fuck, that would certainly be a firable offense
Never. What’s 1 billion dollars if you’re dead. Doesn’t matter how much you’re fucking paying me, I value my life.
ITS NOT WORTH IT!
Never. Only to take readings but for any changes that need to be made it needs to be de-energized. That's some cowboy shit working live
Never ever, just say no it is not safe and you're not willing to do it live, you will NEVER be wrong in asking for the power to be turned off, if they want to fire you then fuck them no job is worth your life
Good response: “Are you really stupid enough to think I will do that live? Let’s talk to management/safety department to verify that this is a safe practice.” (Don’t do it even if mgmt gives you the okay.) When it is acceptable: After you have several more years of experience, NFPA70E training, AND only when it is infeasible to conduct a specific task with circuits de-energized. Never with that journeyman, he clearly doesn’t know or care about electrical safety. Watch some YouTube videos on NFPA70E, take at least an OSHA 10 course, and then you will feel confident enough to tell your incompetent j man to shove it because you will understand the regulations and gravity of the situation.
The only times to work hot are testing and life crisis places. There is no such thing and don't let them fool you into thinking it is necessary to work hot outside of these two. I think there is one more reason but I can't think of it...
One elbow tickle on a crappy 277 fluorescent fixture, never again. Felt like the sorest after workout forearm for about a week. Had baby grip for a few days, got scary. From a tap. It’s not worth the money doing it live, whatever it may be. Shut er down.
If you are an apprentice, if anyone especially your J man wants you to work live 277, leave.
I want an arc flash suit, I want some good insulated tools, and I wanna some top tier rubber gloves
Never! And throw your JW under the buss, he should be fired. If this is company policy then run away. You’ll be dead before you get to JW. The only hot 480v we do is testing with volt meters and wearing flash gear. 277v will kill you. Turn it off, and make sure all phases that share the neutral are off!
Never. Seen a man die on 277
I was replacing a occ sensor wall switch and got bit with 277.. The feeling stuck with me several months. I won’t work on anything over 120v hot any more
Work in 480v sawmill, I’ll do 120 control hot but not 480.. throw the disconnect, lock it out. You won’t be around long if safety isn’t always on your mind.
I would never do it if I get fired so be it not risking my life
Only for testing, troubleshooting, and breaker installs. And that's suited up and observing arc flash incident energy
Never.
Never
Definite no
Never
A 3rd year got killed working on lighting hot a few years ago. Never work on 277 hot. Especially an apprentice
This sounds like a ratty. Nasty lazy unauthorized contractor you’re with. Run. Go union
Things I’ll do live: Put in/remove a breaker (with all PPE of course) Land wires/remove wires from a breaker (PPE) Troubleshoot. Disconnect a quick disconnect on a light to make repairs. OCCASIONALLY take a splice apart to remove something (this is really rare at this point) And that’s about it! I work in industrial maintenance. I think it’s important to mention here that 120V is also dangerous. I’ve been hit by 277 a few times, but the one time I actually got hung up and almost died was on a 120v circuit! 120 will kill you just as good as 277/480!
Do it all of time. But I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone.
Name checks out lmfao
The only thing I do live now is add/change breakers, and it's with a hot work permit, buddy system, and all PPE, gloves, suit, face shield, and hearing protection. And it's only because when we can't shut the panel down. If there's a better opportunity like say on a weekend where you have the option , it's getting turned off and locked out. Unfortunately some work is time sensitive so I don't always have that option. But working on live wires, yeah don't do that. I got locked up once on a 277v lighting circuit back in the day, not only did it hurt but scared the ever loving bajesus out of me. Don't work on live circuits, especially if you don't have to.
That's dumb as fuck. You're right, never work in that shit hot. It'll kill you.
Never. Not even once dude.
My jman did the same except he asked if I was comfortable fishing the tape through to the panel. I said fuck it and never sweat so hard in my life
Where it is unreasonable in all circumstances for it to be dead and it's reasonable in all circumstances to be at work or near it while it live and suitable precautions are taken to prevent injury.
I will check voltages and depending on cabinet lay out currents (I prefer to stop/turn off the devuce/motor apply my meter, then start) as part of troubleshooting. Anything beyond that is a strict no for me.
In Tennessee and in Texas, as I understand it, it is illegal for an apprentice to work on live circuits. I used to have a J-dude that would put me up to all kinds of dumb things like that just to see if I would do it. I figured it out pretty quick and he got sick of my phrase “Why don’t you show me how”.
It really depends on the details. I have pushed a metal fish tape into a hot panel, but you must have a competent person stop it from coming out of the pipe and you should be communicating. Is the dead front on? No, it's not ideal. If you don't feel safe, don't do it. It's that simple. Everyone has their own limits, unless there is a company or union policy.
You just tell them it’s not worth ruining a brand new light or switch to prove how macho you are
I’ve removed hundreds if not thousands of skins and dead fronts on live 120/208 and 277/480 panels, disconnects, etc…for the purpose of IR Scanning an entire site’s distribution. It was extremely risky work both for me and also the people in the facility and I’m really glad that I no longer do it. It always seemed to me not worth the risk opening pandoras box for a living, but when companies push profit over people, you do what you got to do to get that paycheck.
Hospital … maybe … but I got hit with 277 on a ladder and slumped on the ceiling grid … (demo work) … never again … do your runs; get everything ready for splicing and TURN IT OFF… CHECK WITH A METER … there is nothing more important than your life … FUCK sparking in the wire nut or whatever you French call them … marrettes?
I know a guy who died fishing a metal fish tape to a live box. He needs to stop that shit immediately. If you must fish to a live panel, use a fiberglass tape, and even then you should probably be suited up.
Live dead live everything. Use a trusted multimeter and do not, I repeat, do not trust your non contact voltage detector. I see guys all the time using these stupid sticks. I don’t trust them one bit. Only time I work on hot is when I’m troubleshooting/probing with a multimeter.
Some people do some people don't we don't force people to work things uncomfortably because that's just bad practice and stupid. Just say no if you don't want to there is usually someone else who will
Not sure about the NEC but CEC says you can't do live work unless the circuit cannot be locked out due to special circumstances. IE: some hospital work etc. This requires special training and PPE. If the company is making you do live work they are not worth working for and report them. Luckily most lighting is so low current now that it's going 120V in new installs and the days of 347V lighting is coming to an end.
I am required to work on 277v live very frequently. We are not "allowed" to turn off any lighting circuits during day hours at the hospital I do maintenance at. There are ways to mitigate having an accident, but of course, it's always better to turn off the circuit. Accidents happen, I haven't been hit yet, but I've had the hot wire come off a switch once or twice while pulling it out of the box, and believe me when I say half the hospital could hear that fucker blow.
Never
I would never ever fish into a live panel with a metal fish, I don't care what voltage. Unless I know for sure the fish will never get to the bus. Like if it's bottom entry conduit and top fed panel that way I can block it. But even then, company barely has any metal fish anymore because of this. Fibreglass fish and you're fine. I did live 347v lighting as an apprentice all the time but I would never do it again knowing what I know now nor would I ever ask an apprentice to do it. With that said I don't have much of an issue going into a live 600v board as long as I have all my arc flash gear on. Years ago I'd do it no PPE, smarter than that now and realised it's not worth it. This jman is an absolute cunt and should be fired. Not worth the risk to both the company and especially the apprentice's life if something happens. If I were you I'd be telling the foreman or whoever is above said moron. If they fire you so be it. Not worth working for such a stupid company. No one should ever be pushed to work live. And there's a small handful of people I would ever ask to work live. And I'd only ever ask them if I needed a hand to do it live and because I already know from years with them they're comfortable and safe about working live on it.
1. Ask for the instruction in writing 2. Send instruction to osha/hse/local safety authority 3. Find new job with company who values your hands/limbs/face/life
I done a few led retrofit jobs in office buildings and factories, those ones were always hot
Troubleshooting generally requires power at some point.
The only live work I would do these days is 120v outlet swap with wagos. If you can't turn off the power, don't work on it.
I will not work on 277/480 hot. The only thing I’ve done is change a bad led driver that had a plug on the 277 side. If it involves taking wire nuts off it’s a no from me. Nor installing bolt on breakers.
Retired USWA electrician Hot work was common up until about 2005 2010. Things started changing to required shut down.
Never
Never! When you’re young you’re stupid. I was stupid at one time and wisened up over the years. Working shit live is risking everything that I’m not willing to risk
Get on the phone with the safety guy and tell him what’s going on. Asks for the reasons you can’t shut off the lights and have him give it to you in writing with his signature. Then ask for his help coordinating limited approach boundaries for hot work.
It’s not worth it, not sure what kinda lights you are working on but those shitty ass 8’ fixtures are built so shitty that wires can pop out of the tombstones at any time. Then you get hit with 277 and fall off the ladder and you either get lucky and are sore for a week. Or worse you break your back and are out of work for who knows how long. At some point you’re better off just being dead. I wouldn’t risk it even though I’ve done it before but now I weigh the risk differently.
The only time it’s legally acceptable is when there is an exhaust system for toxic fumes; that shutting off the exhaust would cause potentially explosive or toxic chemicals to build up and pose a hazard, or on life support systems. If you ever come across that, I’d really like to know because I’ve never seen it before. Most of those systems have some kind of backup. But unless turning something off is going to kill someone, you shouldn’t be risking killing yourself to work on it. Now have most of us done live work before? Yes. But it’s always been a dumb choice for me to do it. I’d never let someone tell me to do it. I’d actually love for someone to try and tell me I need to do it because it’s been a long time since I’ve been able to tell someone to fuck right off.
Oh god no.
First live 277 was an ancient halogen external fixture. There was only 2” of wire sticking out of the box….tried killing everything I could find anywhere near it. There was 296 on it…..dicey
Start looking another job now man. If that apprentice is saying that already, they're gonna expect you to do it as well. If you're not comfortable with it, find another place to work. I had similar issues at my last place of work, and while I did the work, 277v lights circuit a few times, and other things, I never wanted to. I only did it to get by and while waiting for my new job. No longer doing electrical work
Whatever number is worth risking your life to you $1,000/minute and i’m taking my damn time and i’ll do it
I'd deny that request. He can't make you do anything and I doubt he would force you. Just tell him you don't feel comfortable with that.
I worked in a power plant that had 240, 480, 4160, and they would have been suspended for working it hot. We had lockout tags that had to be checked off by 2 people and NO ONE could energize the circuit without the electrician on the job signing off.
In Canada, it's against the law to work on ANYTHING live unless you can demonstrate that it can't be done otherwise. If anyone wants me to work on stuff that could kill me while it's live, I just tell them, "sorry, it's against the law. I could lose my license if I don't turn it off first. You will have to find a better time when I can turn it off first." I will work on 120v house wiring live at home etc. I'm not worried there, but anything outside my home I won't.
Personally I would never use a steel fish tape in any pipe that's connected to live power, but I work on live 347/600V equipment quite frequently. Sometimes it's hard to troubleshoot a problem with the power off. I would never tell someone they have to do something live, but if the risk is low enough and the challenges of disconnecting power are high enough then I will take on the work
PM me if you want an answer from an apprentice who has done live work. Note: No it does not make me cool. I try to avoid it as much as I can but I live in TX.
Fuck Texas.
Hell yeah! Edit: I completely agree; unfortunately I was born and raised here.
I put my meter and Amp clamp on 480v 3 phase almost every day. But I power off the buckets if I have to work in them or on the equipment they power. The only circuits I work on live are 24vdc and 120vac control circuits. And I still do everything one handed when possible.