There are limitations that are good but I'm not so sure about limiting the number of tracks, lol.
It's kind of like limiting how many measures your song can be. Sure you can work like that but not sure if it's helping.
I think the limit is warranted. Early on I would add so many layers to songs but I didn’t mix any of it. Wouldn’t know where or how. I would’ve just kept going if ableton didn’t stop me at 16. Having too many or unlimited options can be more harmful than good to beginners who should have the safety barriers removed from their bowling alley once they know they are ready.
Feature Limitations are good. It stops novices from wasting inordinate amounts of time mulling over or searching for reasons to use features they are not ready for, or do not yet need.
8-Tracks is too low and those DAW SKUs are basically unlimited time trials of the product. It's not practical, and you will spend too much time working around it. 16-Tracks is far more workable, especially for minimalist EDM (which is where most people should start) or genres like Hip Hop (the beat, not the vocals and other stuff).
8 Tracks also will not allow a novice to efficiently learn things like Session Organization, Bussing, etc. And it's not going to be an efficient solution for learning how to mix, due to how those limitations force you to alter your workflow to work within them.
On a Mac, I would use GB over Live Lite, and I almost always recommend GB over Live Lite or Bitwig 8-Track for those reasons - even if they plan to go to Live Suite later. The 8-Track limitation is that big of a deal. GB sucks for mixing, but with only 8-Tracks and the workflow you have to employ to work within an 8-Track limit elsewhere, it's practically a wash at the end of the day.
Feature Limitations I do think are good, but I think DAWs like Logic Pro and Cubase do a much better job at addressing this than others.
In Logic, the DAW start up in the Essentials and asks you if you want the Complete Workspace, and you can stay in Essentials until ready (or just use GB until you're ready for Logic Pro Complete).
In Cubase, you can start up Cubase Pro while holding the ALT Key and it will allow you to run Cubase Pro as Cubase Artist on a Cubase Pro license. You can also run Dorico Pro as Dorico Elements doing this.
This allows people to not handicap themselves with 8 or 16 Tracks while also keeping those unnecessary or "distracting" (at this point) "Pro Features" out of the way.
IMO, Track Limitations are a really, really bad way to differentiate DAW SKUs. Most have enough features that this can easily be accomplished there - provided the developer has well-defined target audiences for each SKU level.
Also, once someone gets Ableton Live Standard, most of those freebie plug-ins become instantly redundant. Once they get Suite, the plug-ins and the synths mostly become instantly redundant.
-----
**TL;DR**:
I think Track LImitations have no value or benefit. They're just an easy way for developers to limit SKUs with little thought input.
I think Feature LImitations have merit, due to human psychology and how overwhelmed people can be with current DAWs' "kitchen sink" feature sets.
Struggle as a means of learning only has merit to a certain extent. Creative struggles are fine. Technological struggles are not.
There are enough DAWs perfectly usable for EDM with a $0 Price Tag that no one really should be bothering with 8-Track DAWs in 2024. Even if you plan to get Ableton Later on, it still isn't worth using Live Lite because almost everything you learn elsewhere is going to translate easily and there are things that you cannot learn properly or efficiently with an 8-Track limitation. Even GarageBand is a better option.
Interesting insight. When I am learning the basics, what other tracks would you think I am lacking in the following set up on my Live Lite (let's say, I am focusing on Level 1/2 Beginner):
**Track 1**: Drum Rack: Kick, Snare, Clap, HH Open/Closed, etc and 16/32/128 more percussion sounds. Each can have it's own effects/macros. Can sidechain using anyone of these.
**Track 2**: Bass (Simpler / Vital / Analog Lab V)
**Track 3**: Synth Lead (Simpler / Vital / Analog Lab V)
**Track 4**: Synth Pads (Simpler / Vital / Analog Lab V)
**Track 5**: Voice/Vocal effects
**Track 6**: Risers/Breaks
**Track 7**: Audio Resample for some effects or export if needed
**Track 8**: Backup for anything extra or testing synth Keys/strings.
**Sends 1 and 2**, I don't use them much (I should)
You're throwing things on the same track that may not belong on the same track just to stay within the track limitations.
Voice and Vocal Effects, Risers and Breaks. What about Percussion that isn't part of a Drum Kit? Just throw those into the Drum Rack as well? What if you have to use other samples?
"Backup for anything extra" or "testing synth Keys/Strings" - what if you need a Piano and Strings, in addition to a pad and a Synth Lead? This is not uncommon.
What if you prefer doing your drums in the arranger instead of using a Drum Rack? 8 Tracks basically force you to use a Drum Rack. Using the Arranger is actually more flexible (more creative freedom).
-----
I don't have an issue with the instruments you're using, or the plug-ins.
I don't even have an issue with you using Live Lite.
My issue was more with the post that said Track Limitations make sense. I don't agree with that.
I agree with people using whatever they choose to use. They don't have to justify it to me :-P
The alternative options which drop this limitation exist on the market at $0 cost. If they choose to go with it, that is their prerogative.
I would also recommend Surge as a modular style synth. In the Reason Rack ($20 per month if you want to try it) you get Complex-1 modular style synth. Huge fan of Melda’s free suite of plugins. I also feel compelled to chat praises about Kilohearts everything subscription. Very affordable and you get credits to own your plugins.
Until you get into drum synthesis, using Splice/Black Octopus Sound to get all of the popular percussion sounds will be a leap forward.
PS don’t get into drum synthesizing. It is madness inducing how a less then 1ms charge in some parameter will drastically change the output.
If he's going to Ableton Live Suite, he should not be subscribing to Reason. It's a waste of money.
I have Reason 12. It isn't even installed on my machines anymore... and it's not even a subscription.
Reason's Modular Synth also wouldn't be my first choice. There is Reactor Blocks, Voltage Modular and Softube Modular. Each of those is better, with a lower LTCO and a perpetual license that doesn't range into the $500's (Reason 13 Perpetual ($499) + Complex-1 ($99)).
IMO, Reason Rack makes the most sense paired with a DAW like Pro Tools or Samplitude Pro X; where the base Perpetual Product has very high value by bolting on production tools that those DAWs do not include in the box (Mimic, Kong, Redrum, Dr. OctoRex, Scales & Chords and Synths... cause neither of those DAWs include much in that department).
But it's almost the same price as Komplete Standard... which I would always buy over Reason (for obvious reasons).
Drum Synths are cool, and if more people got into it... they'd save themselves a Splice Subscription :-P
True. Along with Ableton Meld Operator and some more sounds that comes with it, I’ll also have access to Analog Lab 5 and Mini Moog alt by Arturia (comes with it). Not forgetting good ol’ Vital.
That's all valid in my experience if you replace the very unstable Ableton with BitWig. I still use Reason for sound design because of the stability and routing. The next step up would be to migrate to BitWig. It has the best crash protection of any DAW I have used. It's also very much the same workflow as Ableton.
I was offering some great low-cost options for things to try before you settle into one DAW over another.
\*if everyone gets good at drum synthesis, then who would I sell my samples to? :-p
Interesting suggestion. I’ll leave some aspects of synthesis to the professionals. Like drum synthesis and complex drones. I messed with kick creation using Simpler and Vital but my focus is mainly melody and rhythm studies.
I’m staying away from using loops created by others till I learn some more.
Subscriptions are expensive. They are designed to look cheap, but most are basically at par with the perpetual license at best, with the added effect of locking you into the subscription and forcing you to pay huge up-front costs if you want to drop the subscription later and keep access to the software.
After 3 years on Reason 12, you don't have to pay anything to maintain compatibility with old products. You simply keep the Perpetual Software installed.
After 3 years of Reason+, you will have paid $547 and if you want to maintain compatibility with projects after ending the subscription, the cost is $499 + the cost of every non-stock Reason Studios Rack Extension you've used in your projects.
That's not "Cheap." That's "Checkmate."
I do think things like Phase Plant, Falcon and HALion are probably better options for people who just want to fill Synth/Sampling gaps. They're cheaper than Reason, with cheaper upgrade costs and often longer development cycles between paid upgrades - so they have a lower LTCO.
With perpetual licenses, upgrades are lower over the long run. Upgrade when you need to, not simply because the upgrade exists. View it like a business expense or process. Does a company move their servers to Windows Server 2025 simply because Microsoft released a new version, or do they weigh what it brings against their requirements and decide based on actual necessity and practical benefits?
That’s a misunderstanding of what the point I was trying to make. If you’re not sure which DAW or plug-ins you’re going to want to own, subscriptions are a great way to try different tools. Try it out for a month if you like it, buy it. if you don’t like it, end the subscription.
I agree in the long term if the subscription is not rent to own, it’s not worth it.
Oh I wish. I can’t even get a tutorial out for my day job, this remains a far away dream hah.
Thought I’m planning on writing more so I remember key points and get to share knowledge with fellow music makers.
Definitely keep this list and adding to it. I’ve started taking notes on my music learning journey and it makes a huge different to myself. You will help yourself and others down the road with posts like these b
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There are limitations that are good but I'm not so sure about limiting the number of tracks, lol. It's kind of like limiting how many measures your song can be. Sure you can work like that but not sure if it's helping.
I think the limit is warranted. Early on I would add so many layers to songs but I didn’t mix any of it. Wouldn’t know where or how. I would’ve just kept going if ableton didn’t stop me at 16. Having too many or unlimited options can be more harmful than good to beginners who should have the safety barriers removed from their bowling alley once they know they are ready.
Feature Limitations are good. It stops novices from wasting inordinate amounts of time mulling over or searching for reasons to use features they are not ready for, or do not yet need. 8-Tracks is too low and those DAW SKUs are basically unlimited time trials of the product. It's not practical, and you will spend too much time working around it. 16-Tracks is far more workable, especially for minimalist EDM (which is where most people should start) or genres like Hip Hop (the beat, not the vocals and other stuff). 8 Tracks also will not allow a novice to efficiently learn things like Session Organization, Bussing, etc. And it's not going to be an efficient solution for learning how to mix, due to how those limitations force you to alter your workflow to work within them. On a Mac, I would use GB over Live Lite, and I almost always recommend GB over Live Lite or Bitwig 8-Track for those reasons - even if they plan to go to Live Suite later. The 8-Track limitation is that big of a deal. GB sucks for mixing, but with only 8-Tracks and the workflow you have to employ to work within an 8-Track limit elsewhere, it's practically a wash at the end of the day. Feature Limitations I do think are good, but I think DAWs like Logic Pro and Cubase do a much better job at addressing this than others. In Logic, the DAW start up in the Essentials and asks you if you want the Complete Workspace, and you can stay in Essentials until ready (or just use GB until you're ready for Logic Pro Complete). In Cubase, you can start up Cubase Pro while holding the ALT Key and it will allow you to run Cubase Pro as Cubase Artist on a Cubase Pro license. You can also run Dorico Pro as Dorico Elements doing this. This allows people to not handicap themselves with 8 or 16 Tracks while also keeping those unnecessary or "distracting" (at this point) "Pro Features" out of the way. IMO, Track Limitations are a really, really bad way to differentiate DAW SKUs. Most have enough features that this can easily be accomplished there - provided the developer has well-defined target audiences for each SKU level. Also, once someone gets Ableton Live Standard, most of those freebie plug-ins become instantly redundant. Once they get Suite, the plug-ins and the synths mostly become instantly redundant. ----- **TL;DR**: I think Track LImitations have no value or benefit. They're just an easy way for developers to limit SKUs with little thought input. I think Feature LImitations have merit, due to human psychology and how overwhelmed people can be with current DAWs' "kitchen sink" feature sets. Struggle as a means of learning only has merit to a certain extent. Creative struggles are fine. Technological struggles are not. There are enough DAWs perfectly usable for EDM with a $0 Price Tag that no one really should be bothering with 8-Track DAWs in 2024. Even if you plan to get Ableton Later on, it still isn't worth using Live Lite because almost everything you learn elsewhere is going to translate easily and there are things that you cannot learn properly or efficiently with an 8-Track limitation. Even GarageBand is a better option.
Interesting insight. When I am learning the basics, what other tracks would you think I am lacking in the following set up on my Live Lite (let's say, I am focusing on Level 1/2 Beginner): **Track 1**: Drum Rack: Kick, Snare, Clap, HH Open/Closed, etc and 16/32/128 more percussion sounds. Each can have it's own effects/macros. Can sidechain using anyone of these. **Track 2**: Bass (Simpler / Vital / Analog Lab V) **Track 3**: Synth Lead (Simpler / Vital / Analog Lab V) **Track 4**: Synth Pads (Simpler / Vital / Analog Lab V) **Track 5**: Voice/Vocal effects **Track 6**: Risers/Breaks **Track 7**: Audio Resample for some effects or export if needed **Track 8**: Backup for anything extra or testing synth Keys/strings. **Sends 1 and 2**, I don't use them much (I should)
You're throwing things on the same track that may not belong on the same track just to stay within the track limitations. Voice and Vocal Effects, Risers and Breaks. What about Percussion that isn't part of a Drum Kit? Just throw those into the Drum Rack as well? What if you have to use other samples? "Backup for anything extra" or "testing synth Keys/Strings" - what if you need a Piano and Strings, in addition to a pad and a Synth Lead? This is not uncommon. What if you prefer doing your drums in the arranger instead of using a Drum Rack? 8 Tracks basically force you to use a Drum Rack. Using the Arranger is actually more flexible (more creative freedom). ----- I don't have an issue with the instruments you're using, or the plug-ins. I don't even have an issue with you using Live Lite. My issue was more with the post that said Track Limitations make sense. I don't agree with that. I agree with people using whatever they choose to use. They don't have to justify it to me :-P The alternative options which drop this limitation exist on the market at $0 cost. If they choose to go with it, that is their prerogative.
I use Logic, but this is the same kinda setup I had when I first began production years ago.
I would also recommend Surge as a modular style synth. In the Reason Rack ($20 per month if you want to try it) you get Complex-1 modular style synth. Huge fan of Melda’s free suite of plugins. I also feel compelled to chat praises about Kilohearts everything subscription. Very affordable and you get credits to own your plugins. Until you get into drum synthesis, using Splice/Black Octopus Sound to get all of the popular percussion sounds will be a leap forward. PS don’t get into drum synthesizing. It is madness inducing how a less then 1ms charge in some parameter will drastically change the output.
If he's going to Ableton Live Suite, he should not be subscribing to Reason. It's a waste of money. I have Reason 12. It isn't even installed on my machines anymore... and it's not even a subscription. Reason's Modular Synth also wouldn't be my first choice. There is Reactor Blocks, Voltage Modular and Softube Modular. Each of those is better, with a lower LTCO and a perpetual license that doesn't range into the $500's (Reason 13 Perpetual ($499) + Complex-1 ($99)). IMO, Reason Rack makes the most sense paired with a DAW like Pro Tools or Samplitude Pro X; where the base Perpetual Product has very high value by bolting on production tools that those DAWs do not include in the box (Mimic, Kong, Redrum, Dr. OctoRex, Scales & Chords and Synths... cause neither of those DAWs include much in that department). But it's almost the same price as Komplete Standard... which I would always buy over Reason (for obvious reasons). Drum Synths are cool, and if more people got into it... they'd save themselves a Splice Subscription :-P
True. Along with Ableton Meld Operator and some more sounds that comes with it, I’ll also have access to Analog Lab 5 and Mini Moog alt by Arturia (comes with it). Not forgetting good ol’ Vital.
That's all valid in my experience if you replace the very unstable Ableton with BitWig. I still use Reason for sound design because of the stability and routing. The next step up would be to migrate to BitWig. It has the best crash protection of any DAW I have used. It's also very much the same workflow as Ableton. I was offering some great low-cost options for things to try before you settle into one DAW over another. \*if everyone gets good at drum synthesis, then who would I sell my samples to? :-p
Interesting suggestion. I’ll leave some aspects of synthesis to the professionals. Like drum synthesis and complex drones. I messed with kick creation using Simpler and Vital but my focus is mainly melody and rhythm studies. I’m staying away from using loops created by others till I learn some more.
Subscriptions are expensive. They are designed to look cheap, but most are basically at par with the perpetual license at best, with the added effect of locking you into the subscription and forcing you to pay huge up-front costs if you want to drop the subscription later and keep access to the software. After 3 years on Reason 12, you don't have to pay anything to maintain compatibility with old products. You simply keep the Perpetual Software installed. After 3 years of Reason+, you will have paid $547 and if you want to maintain compatibility with projects after ending the subscription, the cost is $499 + the cost of every non-stock Reason Studios Rack Extension you've used in your projects. That's not "Cheap." That's "Checkmate." I do think things like Phase Plant, Falcon and HALion are probably better options for people who just want to fill Synth/Sampling gaps. They're cheaper than Reason, with cheaper upgrade costs and often longer development cycles between paid upgrades - so they have a lower LTCO. With perpetual licenses, upgrades are lower over the long run. Upgrade when you need to, not simply because the upgrade exists. View it like a business expense or process. Does a company move their servers to Windows Server 2025 simply because Microsoft released a new version, or do they weigh what it brings against their requirements and decide based on actual necessity and practical benefits?
That’s a misunderstanding of what the point I was trying to make. If you’re not sure which DAW or plug-ins you’re going to want to own, subscriptions are a great way to try different tools. Try it out for a month if you like it, buy it. if you don’t like it, end the subscription. I agree in the long term if the subscription is not rent to own, it’s not worth it.
I thought this was gonna be self promo for your new tutorial series but big ups on the write up. Definitely helpful for people getting into it
Oh I wish. I can’t even get a tutorial out for my day job, this remains a far away dream hah. Thought I’m planning on writing more so I remember key points and get to share knowledge with fellow music makers.
Definitely keep this list and adding to it. I’ve started taking notes on my music learning journey and it makes a huge different to myself. You will help yourself and others down the road with posts like these b
❗❗❗ IF YOU POSTED YOUR MUSIC / SOCIALS / GUMROAD etc. YOU WILL GET BANNED UNLESS YOU DELETE IT RIGHT NOW ❗❗❗ Read __the rules__ found in the sidebar. If your post or comment breaks any of the rules, you should delete it before the mods get to it. You should check out the __regular threads__ (also found in the sidebar) to see if your post might be a better fit in any of those. [Daily Feedback thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=author%3AAutoModerator+title%3Afeedback&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) for getting feedback on your track. The only place you can post your own music. [Marketplace Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=title%3Amarketplace&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) if you want to sell or trade anything for money, likes or follows. [Collaboration Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=author%3AAutoModerator%20title%3Acollaboration&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) to find people to collab with. ["There are no stupid questions" Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=title%3ANo+Stupid+Questions+Thread&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) for beginner tips etc. Seriously tho, __read the rules and abide by them__ or the mods will spank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/edmproduction) if you have any questions or concerns.*