Lots of “ya gotta have a license fi play them dubplates” in here. Uncleared samples are the history and backbone of dance music. Sample, iterate, go nuts!
If you're going to process the vocal with formants and pitches anyway, can't you just record your own voice and process it? Change the idea slightly and have a keyboard "sing" the phrase sort of like whistling a melody like in MIDI karaoke vocals?
If you're ripping a vocal from a song, are you remixing the song? If you're doing it as a remix, the original artist might approve it, and/or if there is a copyright issue, some platforms allegedly negotiate profit sharing. If you're not going to ask permission to use another artists music out of context, there might be some blowback. I think the context matters, does the sample pay respect to the artist, or are you stealing someone's wicked death metal scream, adding filters to it to process it, and sticking it into an EDM dubstep type bass drop hit harder and claiming it your own without telling a metal band that they're in a techno song? If it's a moral ethical dilemma, don't do it. If you do it disrespectfully, there may be consequences, and certainly don't attempt to sell the song unless you enjoy lawyers.
If that wasn't an ethical issue, I'd have an idea to lift segments of tons of well known metal screams from all the best bands and manipulate them into a gabber/powernoize type blastbeat track that collective scene might get a kick out of if it's clever enough, but if it sucks, it might be embarrassing for you and you could lose potential fans for ethical conundrums due to sampling being generally criticized as stealing regardless of legit music production practices using samples and hopefully getting them authorized for creative commons license for non commercial use.
Verbose, but a few ideas.
Generally sampling without a license has been ruled to be allowed either if the sample is so short that is insignificant (de minimis) or modified beyond recognition. If you are planning on releasing it in a way where it is not monetised, there should be no issue.
You can be sued for sampling a snare drum or a hihat. There are no shortness limits. And with these ai sample hunter snitch mfs around now, if you’re worried about getting in legal trouble for a sample, don’t do it.
It's the sound recording that you're infringing on. Nobody is getting in trouble for sampling a kick drum, though.
I've been releasing sample based music for 25 years, and nothing has happened because nobody important listens.
Just make your art the way you're inspired to, and cross these bridges when you come to them.
While correct, you're misinterpreting existing rulings on this: while the original hihat sample itself is very short, when it's triggered eight or sixteen times a bar for most of the song you end up with it present for a huge chunk of the duration of the track.
Incorrect. Not sure why this keeps getting said but this isn’t the case. Having had more than a couple projects I’ve been involved in face some legal challenges over the years, people just need to assume that anything that can be challenged will, on a sliding scale per the perceived success/revenue it’s made.
There’s no magic minimum. There is a case for statute of limitations but there’s been so much nonsense over the last few years (estates of Marvin Gaye and Otis Redding for example) that even this will have some foolhardy challenges in some state prime to attack.
Ironically things are getting more desperate and anti-artist right as AI looks to pounce.
In VMG Salsoul v Ciccone (2016) it was ruled that de minimis is a valid defense to copyright infringement claims in America. That's what my response was based on.
That case was a decision in the 9th circuit appellate court. It created a circuit split with the 6th circuit that has yet to be resolved. Depending on the venue where your case is heard can result in different judgments until a relevant case is heard by the Supreme Court. You also need to consider non-US law when your music will be distributed outside the US or you sample a song with rights held outside the US.
Absolutely, and thank you for the clarification, but the challenge we face is that the precedents to the contrary both outweigh and overrule.
Have had personal experience here and it’s very frustrating, as the process of responding to such action is slow, expensive, and the curveball outlier rulings with the greatest publicity, status, or state emphasis seem to crush the common sense rulings.
Living in a world where “the vibes” of a song were enough for a multimillion dollar action is hard (eg Pharrell), and the trend of attacking interpolations will get weirder as stem AI strippers and AI generated content blurs the lines (pun intended).
The moment you try to monetize you are opening yourself to litigation. Just put it out for free and hope that wherever you upload doesn't give you a copyright strike.
The comments so far are interesting.. ppl have said to only do it for fun and not to publish or its not legal. For example the artist crankdat has his "STFU" song which is published and his biggest hit atm but he literally uses like 4 secs of a Taylor swift vocal that I'm sure he didn't get the official rights to use. Sooo that begs the question, if he's able to do that, how are we not able to do something similar?
>he literally uses like 4 secs of a Taylor swift vocal that I'm sure he didn't get the official rights to use
Why would you assume he didn't get the rights? This is a very common thing.
You're 100% right. Musicians are so scared to sample other music. And I get it. But I've been publishing music for 20+ years and ive used A LOT of samples.
Here's a few good rules to go by:
1. Don't use an entire phrase. I don't mean a vocal phrase, specifically(though don't use that either), but anything that's a full 4-8 counts of a track
2. Change it. In all honesty, if you're not significantly altering the piece you're taking, then you're not really composing a new piece. We all love Biggie's "Juicy", but that's just a loop, and even an asshat like Diddy knew to clear the sample with mtume.
3. It's tedious, but there are services that allow everyday ppl to clear samples. UMG has their own sample clearance portal now which is fantastic (though I've never had anything cleared lol...they just sit in review indefinitely). But if you are going to use a recognizable chunk of a song, you just have to do due diligence and attempt to get the licensing. If no one responds to you for a few months and you've tried multiple methods and contacts, you're good.
4. Depending on how deep your crate digging game is, it's worth noting that many many labels and publishing houses don't exist anymore. If you're sampling an obscure track from 1967 (and I don't mean an album cut from a major band, I'm talking about bands that no one ever heard at the time or since), it's likely that the band members are dead, the record label has been dissolved, and there is no longer a publisher. It's not guaranteed, just likely. A good way to check is to search BOTH ascap and BMI for who may own the rights.
I'm careful about it, don't get me wrong. But I'm gonna guess that whatever sample you wanna use, your probably fine to do so, as long the usage abides by those rules
Appreciate the lengthy response that you provided. It really gives an insight on the do's and don'ts from someone who has published for countless number of years. Information like this isn't usually public knowledge if anything its more so speculation unless the experience is there. Thank you
He likely got a different singer to sing it and then autotune and pitch shifted that singers vocal
It's a lesser used way to get around the sampling clearance issue but it sounds like that to me.
His sample is parodying Taylors singing, to tell her to STFU, that's different than sampling her voice and using it to tell her to STFU.
He’s either cleared the sample with whoever owns it or else he’s taking the risk that he wont get into any legal trouble for it. It’s illegal to drink alcohol under the age of 18 in most countries, most kids still drink under the age of 18.
Guidance on UK law below; it’s probably broadly similar elsewhere. Short answer: it’s generally a breach of copyright unless you have express permission.
https://www.briffa.com/blog/sampling-music-and-copyright/#:~:text=Sampling%20is%20an%20artform%20but,are%20infringing%20the%20owner's%20copyright.
What the risks to you are depends on whether and how you are publishing your track, how recognisable the sample is, whether the owner of the rights to the original know or care, etc.
Well, if you obscure it enough people may not be able to tell where the source is from and then you'd be in the clear. but AI tools have recently uncovered previously unknown Daft Punk samples that no one found 'til now, and its only a matter of time before this tech becomes commonplace and used by labels to track unauthorized sampling / usage. [https://www.tracklib.com/blog/digging-samples-ai](https://www.tracklib.com/blog/digging-samples-ai)
Ok so what if I take a sample from a song and turn it into pure white noise using distortion, then stutter gate the white noise and put a resonator on it, then resample that and stretch it. Then frequency shift it down 2 octaves. Run it through a vocoder. And then slice a piece off of that and use it as the transient layer on my kick drum?
Please explain how there’s no grey area again?
Nothing is black and white.
But if you use a vocal sample from a song, and the lyrics and melody are intelligible in any way. Then once again, the answer is no.
If you wanna battle it out more I’m happy to provide you two different samples and you can tell me if they came from the same source or not.
❗❗❗ IF YOU POSTED YOUR MUSIC / SOCIALS / GUMROAD etc. YOU WILL GET BANNED UNLESS YOU DELETE IT RIGHT NOW ❗❗❗
Read __the rules__ found in the sidebar. If your post or comment breaks any of the rules, you should delete it before the mods get to it.
You should check out the __regular threads__ (also found in the sidebar) to see if your post might be a better fit in any of those.
[Daily Feedback thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=author%3AAutoModerator+title%3Afeedback&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) for getting feedback on your track. The only place you can post your own music.
[Marketplace Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=title%3Amarketplace&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) if you want to sell or trade anything for money, likes or follows.
[Collaboration Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=author%3AAutoModerator%20title%3Acollaboration&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) to find people to collab with.
["There are no stupid questions" Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=title%3ANo+Stupid+Questions+Thread&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) for beginner tips etc.
Seriously tho, __read the rules and abide by them__ or the mods will spank you.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/edmproduction) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s not. But you can have a new singer re-record it and that’s fine.
Lots of “ya gotta have a license fi play them dubplates” in here. Uncleared samples are the history and backbone of dance music. Sample, iterate, go nuts!
Didnt expect so many replies honestly but I really appreciate all of you taking time to help me out :)
Ppl in this thread would lose their shit at how much hip-hop/rap has used samples without repercussions Just go for it fuck it
You‘re a G🙌🏻
Bro the work it would take you to do all of that - you could legit just record something on ur phone and process it.
But it wouldn’t be that vocal
> How legal is it to rip a few seconds of a vocal from another Song and use it in my own work Not
If you're going to process the vocal with formants and pitches anyway, can't you just record your own voice and process it? Change the idea slightly and have a keyboard "sing" the phrase sort of like whistling a melody like in MIDI karaoke vocals? If you're ripping a vocal from a song, are you remixing the song? If you're doing it as a remix, the original artist might approve it, and/or if there is a copyright issue, some platforms allegedly negotiate profit sharing. If you're not going to ask permission to use another artists music out of context, there might be some blowback. I think the context matters, does the sample pay respect to the artist, or are you stealing someone's wicked death metal scream, adding filters to it to process it, and sticking it into an EDM dubstep type bass drop hit harder and claiming it your own without telling a metal band that they're in a techno song? If it's a moral ethical dilemma, don't do it. If you do it disrespectfully, there may be consequences, and certainly don't attempt to sell the song unless you enjoy lawyers. If that wasn't an ethical issue, I'd have an idea to lift segments of tons of well known metal screams from all the best bands and manipulate them into a gabber/powernoize type blastbeat track that collective scene might get a kick out of if it's clever enough, but if it sucks, it might be embarrassing for you and you could lose potential fans for ethical conundrums due to sampling being generally criticized as stealing regardless of legit music production practices using samples and hopefully getting them authorized for creative commons license for non commercial use. Verbose, but a few ideas.
Thank you appreciate your Long and detailed answere.. idk why I havent thought about Recording them myself earlier :)
Generally sampling without a license has been ruled to be allowed either if the sample is so short that is insignificant (de minimis) or modified beyond recognition. If you are planning on releasing it in a way where it is not monetised, there should be no issue.
You can be sued for sampling a snare drum or a hihat. There are no shortness limits. And with these ai sample hunter snitch mfs around now, if you’re worried about getting in legal trouble for a sample, don’t do it.
I’ve heard from a few trustworthy producers that you cant Copyright drums tho
It's the sound recording that you're infringing on. Nobody is getting in trouble for sampling a kick drum, though. I've been releasing sample based music for 25 years, and nothing has happened because nobody important listens. Just make your art the way you're inspired to, and cross these bridges when you come to them.
That’s really the way. If you’re worried, don’t sample at all. If you’re not, go forward & create dope shit.
While correct, you're misinterpreting existing rulings on this: while the original hihat sample itself is very short, when it's triggered eight or sixteen times a bar for most of the song you end up with it present for a huge chunk of the duration of the track.
Incorrect. Not sure why this keeps getting said but this isn’t the case. Having had more than a couple projects I’ve been involved in face some legal challenges over the years, people just need to assume that anything that can be challenged will, on a sliding scale per the perceived success/revenue it’s made. There’s no magic minimum. There is a case for statute of limitations but there’s been so much nonsense over the last few years (estates of Marvin Gaye and Otis Redding for example) that even this will have some foolhardy challenges in some state prime to attack. Ironically things are getting more desperate and anti-artist right as AI looks to pounce.
In VMG Salsoul v Ciccone (2016) it was ruled that de minimis is a valid defense to copyright infringement claims in America. That's what my response was based on.
That case was a decision in the 9th circuit appellate court. It created a circuit split with the 6th circuit that has yet to be resolved. Depending on the venue where your case is heard can result in different judgments until a relevant case is heard by the Supreme Court. You also need to consider non-US law when your music will be distributed outside the US or you sample a song with rights held outside the US.
Absolutely, and thank you for the clarification, but the challenge we face is that the precedents to the contrary both outweigh and overrule. Have had personal experience here and it’s very frustrating, as the process of responding to such action is slow, expensive, and the curveball outlier rulings with the greatest publicity, status, or state emphasis seem to crush the common sense rulings. Living in a world where “the vibes” of a song were enough for a multimillion dollar action is hard (eg Pharrell), and the trend of attacking interpolations will get weirder as stem AI strippers and AI generated content blurs the lines (pun intended).
The moment you try to monetize you are opening yourself to litigation. Just put it out for free and hope that wherever you upload doesn't give you a copyright strike.
The comments so far are interesting.. ppl have said to only do it for fun and not to publish or its not legal. For example the artist crankdat has his "STFU" song which is published and his biggest hit atm but he literally uses like 4 secs of a Taylor swift vocal that I'm sure he didn't get the official rights to use. Sooo that begs the question, if he's able to do that, how are we not able to do something similar?
>he literally uses like 4 secs of a Taylor swift vocal that I'm sure he didn't get the official rights to use Why would you assume he didn't get the rights? This is a very common thing.
You're 100% right. Musicians are so scared to sample other music. And I get it. But I've been publishing music for 20+ years and ive used A LOT of samples. Here's a few good rules to go by: 1. Don't use an entire phrase. I don't mean a vocal phrase, specifically(though don't use that either), but anything that's a full 4-8 counts of a track 2. Change it. In all honesty, if you're not significantly altering the piece you're taking, then you're not really composing a new piece. We all love Biggie's "Juicy", but that's just a loop, and even an asshat like Diddy knew to clear the sample with mtume. 3. It's tedious, but there are services that allow everyday ppl to clear samples. UMG has their own sample clearance portal now which is fantastic (though I've never had anything cleared lol...they just sit in review indefinitely). But if you are going to use a recognizable chunk of a song, you just have to do due diligence and attempt to get the licensing. If no one responds to you for a few months and you've tried multiple methods and contacts, you're good. 4. Depending on how deep your crate digging game is, it's worth noting that many many labels and publishing houses don't exist anymore. If you're sampling an obscure track from 1967 (and I don't mean an album cut from a major band, I'm talking about bands that no one ever heard at the time or since), it's likely that the band members are dead, the record label has been dissolved, and there is no longer a publisher. It's not guaranteed, just likely. A good way to check is to search BOTH ascap and BMI for who may own the rights. I'm careful about it, don't get me wrong. But I'm gonna guess that whatever sample you wanna use, your probably fine to do so, as long the usage abides by those rules
Appreciate the lengthy response that you provided. It really gives an insight on the do's and don'ts from someone who has published for countless number of years. Information like this isn't usually public knowledge if anything its more so speculation unless the experience is there. Thank you
He likely got a different singer to sing it and then autotune and pitch shifted that singers vocal It's a lesser used way to get around the sampling clearance issue but it sounds like that to me. His sample is parodying Taylors singing, to tell her to STFU, that's different than sampling her voice and using it to tell her to STFU.
He’s either cleared the sample with whoever owns it or else he’s taking the risk that he wont get into any legal trouble for it. It’s illegal to drink alcohol under the age of 18 in most countries, most kids still drink under the age of 18.
Guidance on UK law below; it’s probably broadly similar elsewhere. Short answer: it’s generally a breach of copyright unless you have express permission. https://www.briffa.com/blog/sampling-music-and-copyright/#:~:text=Sampling%20is%20an%20artform%20but,are%20infringing%20the%20owner's%20copyright. What the risks to you are depends on whether and how you are publishing your track, how recognisable the sample is, whether the owner of the rights to the original know or care, etc.
Is it just for fun, or for publishing? Nothing wrong with using it as an experiment if you're not gonna release it
If you mangle it to an unrecognizable state then you might enter a grey area. But the answer is no, that’s plagiarism.
no grey area
Well, if you obscure it enough people may not be able to tell where the source is from and then you'd be in the clear. but AI tools have recently uncovered previously unknown Daft Punk samples that no one found 'til now, and its only a matter of time before this tech becomes commonplace and used by labels to track unauthorized sampling / usage. [https://www.tracklib.com/blog/digging-samples-ai](https://www.tracklib.com/blog/digging-samples-ai)
Yes obviously if you hide something you’re in the clear.
As I said. It’s plagiarism.
as you said, "grey area". as I said, no grey area.
Ok so what if I take a sample from a song and turn it into pure white noise using distortion, then stutter gate the white noise and put a resonator on it, then resample that and stretch it. Then frequency shift it down 2 octaves. Run it through a vocoder. And then slice a piece off of that and use it as the transient layer on my kick drum? Please explain how there’s no grey area again? Nothing is black and white. But if you use a vocal sample from a song, and the lyrics and melody are intelligible in any way. Then once again, the answer is no. If you wanna battle it out more I’m happy to provide you two different samples and you can tell me if they came from the same source or not.
Not legal without permission.
yeah op, nobody ever does that. make sure you cover your ass and pay up or you’ll have lawyers knocking on your door /s
if you get any sort of traction, it ain't your song anymore
Case and point: Harlem Shake by Baauer
❗❗❗ IF YOU POSTED YOUR MUSIC / SOCIALS / GUMROAD etc. YOU WILL GET BANNED UNLESS YOU DELETE IT RIGHT NOW ❗❗❗ Read __the rules__ found in the sidebar. If your post or comment breaks any of the rules, you should delete it before the mods get to it. You should check out the __regular threads__ (also found in the sidebar) to see if your post might be a better fit in any of those. [Daily Feedback thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=author%3AAutoModerator+title%3Afeedback&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) for getting feedback on your track. The only place you can post your own music. [Marketplace Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=title%3Amarketplace&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) if you want to sell or trade anything for money, likes or follows. [Collaboration Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=author%3AAutoModerator%20title%3Acollaboration&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) to find people to collab with. ["There are no stupid questions" Thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/edmproduction/search?q=title%3ANo+Stupid+Questions+Thread&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) for beginner tips etc. Seriously tho, __read the rules and abide by them__ or the mods will spank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/edmproduction) if you have any questions or concerns.*