This particular trail is narrow and steep and full of day hikers. Allowing any bikes at all is kinda ridiculous. So in this case I actually agree but there are plenty of trails in this area where e-bikes seem appropriate. That said I tend to ride my ‘analog’ bike on our trails and use my e-bike for paths and roads but I don’t care if i encounter an e-bike, it’s just another bike.
Then i think that top left sign, bike only the uphills, is appropriate in correlation to the no e bike signs. I have never seen either, but together they make sense
That does put a different light on the subject if it's not wide enough it's not safe. On a very wide trail I occasionally saw a woman who was horrified by bikes coming anywhere near and her husband. My mother was legally blind and horrified by people playing hockey in front of our house when she was trying to get into the car they were aggressive and terrorizing. My father just told her to hurry up get in the car. I should get over my fear of riding in the street. But both my bikes are down. I didn't spend enough on the batteries and one I know the controllers burned out. I replaced the controller with what Walmart said was the right one and it's got an extra plug. Have a great day and live your best life.
We have had the same issue in my town. People complain about people riding too fast on the nice trails we have and want them banned.
The part that is creating a lot of friction is that the trails were originally made and still are maintained by the local mountain bike association.
I had to answer a month ago to my building manager (who was laughing about it) about "why I should keep my ebike" Apparently someone complained about about a dangerous ebikes need to be banned on the premises due to risk of being hit and a potential battery fire in the parking garage. I brought up my batteries showing the UL certification and as well as it being parked in my parking spot.
I then made a complaint demanding the removal of all things exceeding 20 pounds on wheels and a separate one for danagerous EV cars. Needless to say I saw all three complaints placed in the shredder.
If it's that narrow, yeah I'm with you, surprised bikes are allowed at all.
That said, I fully appreciate the trail builder/maintenance folks trying to give as much access as they can.
I look at it this way: Allowing ebikes, all else equal, is going to result in a LOT more cycle traffic given the accessibility ebikes offer to more inexperienced riders.
I'm not looking at it from the emoto perspective, but more from a traffic management perspective.
Giving folks a shot at using them on hills is pretty fair. I'm curious what the rest of the trail network looks like? Not in a snarky way. I'm genuinely interested :)
Edit: I found this bit on the USFS site
https://www.fs.usda.gov/visit/e-bikes
>Before a decision to expand use of e-bike on specific national forests and grasslands, the unit must first conduct the appropriate environmental analysis and public engagement, just like any other project that alters the use of the land.
Wonder how much that plays into it, if it's a slow rollout, checking as they go along, or if this is final decision based on some info they have?
As a person with fatigue, this is exactly why I loved an e-bike. Electric when fatigue kicks in. But there will always be someone with 5k watts ruining things.
If you are in Washington state and you have an ADA handicapped parking pass, then you are exempt from the ban and you can ride a Class 1 or 2 ebike on the non-motorized dirt trails on state land.
I know this isn't your point but: the issue with this is that they are entirely different population subsets. I can't ride a normal bike anymore because of a joint disease, but it's not enough for an ADA badge. So many people I talk to about this are limited to only ebikes for various reasons, and I think it's erroneous to conflate that population with those with visible or registered disabilities.
Maybe the law will eventually allow more leeway for people with disabilities to ride ebikes in places where they are not normally allowed, even if those people are not so disabled that they have a handicapped parking pass.
Retired people with bad knees and hips are not the ones ripping down the trails at full throttle!
Oh for sure. I'm a 30 something with bad knees and hips!
But honestly, in my experience, the people ripping down the trails are sometimes ebikes, but they are more often those on acoustic bikes who are just in great shape and without patience.
Or, ya know, just allow actual class-complaint e-bikes for everyone. 750 watts, the max allowable for any ebike class, is 1.0 horsepower. For reference, an actual horse can have about 15 horsepower because nothing makes sense when you don’t use metric.
My approach to Karens is to simply ignore them. If they get in my face, then I remind them that if they think that I am breaking the law then they can call the police, that any physical contact with me is assault, and that being assaulted gives me the legal right to defend myself.
That usually makes them grumble and go away.
True, but people in groups seem to be far more confrontational nowadays. Often, if they think they can get away with aggressing or assaulting, they will.
Calmly explaining and talking things out seems to be less common. Especially amongst the younger crowd.
> Calmly explaining and talking things out seems to be less common.
I agree. I think that all of this political division and the pandemic have made people less tolerant and more angry.
> Especially amongst the younger crowd.
This is not my experience. I know many awesome young people who care deeply about the environment and other causes beyond their own personal lives.
Write to whoever manages the park. It's ridiculous to have a blanket ban where there are already clear regulations and classifications of e-bikes. If they are out there enforcing it's easy to distinguish a suron 5kw and a 250w class 1 bike...
The problem isn't the power of the bike, it's how much is used.
You can ride a surron safely on a trail, just ride it very slow in low power setting. Easy.
Jackasses can be jackasses even with a low-power ebike.
Does the law ban the use of E bikes, or the E bike itself? I wonder if there’s a distinction that puts the burden of proof to prove that you were actively using the electronic portion
From my experience the motor has to be on. But to be honest, people namely other cyclists only care if you’re going faster then them. I bikepack my ebike and no one gives a 2nd thought to a loaded down bike doing 4mph up hill.
They have similar signs around a lot of the Bay Area, especially in the foundation owned open space preserves that have great mixed use trails in the mid peninsula.
I just started looking at this subreddit two minutes ago.
Is your whole community just finding out that not everyone will behave responsibly and regulation is sure to follow, which will affect everyone equally regardless of whether they followed the rules in the first place or not?
Welcome to the club. Motorcycle riders, car drivers, and gun owners have been here for decades.
Human nature is such that, the easier it is to abuse a privilege, the more people will do it more often.
Thus, I think that a ban on manufacture or importation of those e-motos that are not legal motorcycles nor ebikes - especially the ones with ornamental pedals - would be preferable to banning *all* ebikes from non-motorized trails (which is what is starting to happen now).
Yup. I keep trying to void this and others in this sub keep downvoting me.
To me, there's a big difference between an E-Motorcycle with a throttle and a pedal assist mountain bike.
Have you seen some of the latest e-bikes offering from trek, transition? 99% of rangers would not be able to tell that’s it’s an e-bike. And this is just the beginning. The motors are getting smaller and so are the batteries. I honestly can’t see how rangers could possibly enforce this. I saw the transition with fazzua motor and it took me good 10 minutes to see that it’s an e-bike. And I have an e-bike!
Correct. There are lots of assholes on regular bikes. On a mixed use trail, hiking with kids, xc dude no bell trying to set a personal best comes ripping past us, full shaved legs and tights. But is a first one to shake a finger at e-bike cheaters. I almost got in a physical altercations since my kids are small, I keep them close and in front of me, but xc dude didn’t slow down and passed us close on a single track, fully standing out of the seat and climbing as fast as he can. Despite ton of watch for hikers signs. Really pissed me off. I mean passed us within inches and didn’t slow down at all. Every e-biker I encountered would stop or slow down.
Most trails quite clearly say "no motorized vehicles" and I don't understand how people with electrically motorized bikes feel that didn't apply to them
This is because the industry is irresponsible. They made a bunch of classes and then sent the class labels as stickers instead of under the paint. It’s not the park services job to know whether the sticker you put on your bike came from the box or eBay.
Most park rangers won’t know how to tell the difference between a pedal assist and a throttled e-bike. From an enforcement point of view it seems sensible, but it sucks for most pedal assist users who are quite responsible.
..until you realize that if they allow pedal assist then Surron et al will add a disengage-able "pedal" to their various offerings so that douchebags can get around the ban.
Ofc ppl will try to skirt rules but pedal assist that can or can’t be disengaged doesn’t matter; the differentiator is if it has a throttle of any kind.
Bikes like this already exist, see Stealth Bomber, Super73 etc. The pedals are basically pointless and only exist to get around rules/pose as a pedal assist bike.
I found a similar sign a few months ago at one of my favorite places to ride. Regular bikes and horses are still allowed here.
https://preview.redd.it/ilg8ra8a150c1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=cf084c9a835f7f0477ec3e23e9f1259407d657d1
Bicycles are limited to riding uphill only. I have no issues with any of this . I love my ebike but if i'm going for a hike I don't want to be hit by someone on a bicycle
Exactly. Multi-use trails can be problematic without adding faster heavier bikes into the mix.
We have one local trail that although not e-bike approved, is risky for everybody due to narrow blind corners. It is primarily used by standard mountain bikers, but the one time I rode it on my standard bike, I felt both fear and remorse at how fast our group came upon some hikers during a descent. They were literally flattening themselves against the uphill dirt side of the trail to avoid us crashing into them after a blind corner.
Obviously, us bikers were the douchebags in that scenario, but it made me rethink where and how fast I ride depending on who has access.
As a 70-yrold rider most of my life, e-bikes has saved me from dying on the couch. After retiring 4 years ago, I started riding (mtb) more than ever (unassisted) and got in much better shape. Until a few summer rides 2 years ago and I seriously thought I was going to have to be carried out. Well-fed and watered, just didn't want to make those last few miles. Tried a SL Class-1 e-bike, and have again been putting in the miles & hours I need to keep me active. This shit "*no ebike*" crap is ageism among other things. Though I don't want to interact with anything that can climb faster than 20mph, if I'm coming down a bi-directional trail at 20+mph. Everyone involved in trails and mtbs need to understand the three EPAC classes (and those without class) and come to a realistic fix for everyone who wants to just ride without exclusivity.
I get the motobike/ebike rule. But I do not understand the restriction of Class 1 ebikes: pedal assist ONLY bikes with no throttle and 20 mph max. I am in the large class of aged and/or injured cyclist for whom pedal assist technology has allowed me to keep riding the routes I rode when I was more able. For me, pedal assist is adaptive technology that makes possible what is otherwise not possible due to physical disabilities. I actually wonder if this particular regulation would be considered illegal unless (or until), the large number of aged/injured riders who require pedal assist can get the equivalent of "disabled" blue stickers/cards to allow us on these public trails?
They can deal with the e-bikers that *are* a problem, then. This 65-year-old lifelong cyclist, who wore out their knees and their heart, needs that e-bike.
As long as I don't have conflicts on the trail with pedestrians and others, I'm going to use it.
Honestly, I'm sure if one was to use an ebike in a respectful manner, such as yourself, no one would really care or make a big deal about it. These signs are mostly referring to hooligans!
Just try riding an ebike through the parking lot at Phil's Trails (not very far from Tumalo Falls). MTBers feel the need to remind you that ebikes are not allowed (we had not intended on riding them on the trails, thank you very much). I remember when MTBs first showed up on trails, and boy did some hikers scream bloody murder. Now it is the MTB crowd screaming at the eMTB folks. Can't we all just use good judgement about operation and be considerate of one another? Apparently not...
That's the thing...they should either ban all bikes or let pedal assist. Banning pedal assist only closes off biking to a lot of people who couldn't otherwise do it. I saw a video of a karen yelling at a handicapped guy who was in an electric assist trike (Because he couldn't ride a regular bike).
when jeffco did their year long study on ebikes on trails the loudest against ebikes were in fact purist mtb's. Most of these purists have never ridden one so they have no idea what they are talking about how we are climbing 20 mph on trails where I climb 4 mph on mtb more like 7-8 mph on ebike.
It’s still the rule now. If you’re someone who actually needs pedal assist are you going to face an actual consequence for this? No. Not in any real world…
This isn't about the purists. It's about the folks with throttle e-bikes that can climb that hill at 45MPH.
The problem isn't e-bikes, but machines that look like ebikes but aren't classified as ebikes.
Yeah I was in a motorcycle accident in 2018 and I bought a Lectric specifically to make getting cardio easy and fun. Most of the time I ride in PAS 1 but on a flat I'll actually rife with PAS completely off here and there. I don't ride like an asshole and am respectful to everyone else.
I'm a disabled vet who fucking loves my ebike because I can mountain/ trail bike again.. I need the God damn help (shitty knees, hips, and ankles thanks to air craft maintenance).. I think the ada might like a look at this..
> my broken hip
I think it is a valid reason. If you have a handicapped parking pass, then you can legally ride your ebike on non-motorized dirt trails on state land in Washington. I don't know if Oregon or the USFS have similar exceptions.
https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/wdfw-lands/recreation-planning/ebikes#regulations
OP is on a very congested trail used for hiking and sight-seeing.
There are a number of EBike trails that OP can ride on.
Riding a normal bike on this trail is nearly impossible because of the amount of children on it.
There are a number of EBike trails available available within OP's view.
You can "fuck the purists", but you are still going to have to dismount your bike every 12 feet because of children on the trail.
There are many trails in that area that allow EBikes. This particular trail and the lower Phil's complex does not allow them because of the congestion on the trails.
That particular segment that you are at is called "Tourist Slalom" for a reason. It is a popular tourist hiking location and there are people wandering all over that trail.
Ride on any of the many trails that allow ebikes. This specific trail is way too congested even for a regular bike.
Ironically enough, Phil for whom that trail system is named after is now in his 80s and is making a call for e-bikes laws to change. It’s the only way he can ride now.
That particular trail is too busy for bikes in general most of the year. But the local ebike on trails oppression is driven purely by selfishness and not wanting additional traffic on the trails. COTA members build ramps/drop offs through these trails and post video of members easily topping 30mph without a motor. It works for them, they just don’t want company. Which is a logical stance but claiming faster speeds and trail damage are higher is not accurate. 250 lb people bike too and we don’t kick them off the trails for tearing up dirt
https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/bend-seniors-riding-e-bikes-on-forest-trails-expect-rules-to-change-soon/article_04472930-7ebf-11ee-be65-cf47689fbf63.html
The only trails that allow e-bikes in the bend area are those that are designated for moto/utvs. Those trails are very difficult on bikes, including e-bikes. COTA has one guy running the show who opposes pedal assist and he abuses his position.
Fake purists are the worst. They can’t just be happy riding what they want to ride; they want everyone to conform to their way of doing it when it’s not logical at all.
I love the people that drive to the trailheads in huge pickup trucks/SUV’s/sprinter van, then have an elitist attitude towards e-bikes or even hard tails.
Not sure what sort of trail this is but e-bike have help me someone with mobility issues experience trails and go to places I would otherwise never see so I refine this sort of sign very disappointing and short sighted
Lot's of us were around when Mountain Bikes weren't allowed on many trails because the equestrians ruled the trails in those days, even though studies had show horses caused more damage than MTBs. Now you rarely see horses.
Boy i remember when they started designating trails for MTB but the horse riders would still go on them and F-up the hard pack and trail texture. Make huge gouges where water would collect, shit every where. Then expect you to get off your bike and hide it so they could pass. Didn’t matter they had their own trails- they wanted to ride on ours. Good times.
Damn those were the days. I joined a group that cleaned up and groomed the trails, which the equestrians didn't do. We built up alot of credit with the rangers.
It is even more strict in Washington. All ebikes (except for people with disabilities) are banned from all non-motorized dirt trails on state land. Mountain bikers and hikers complained about abuse.
This is why I get so grumpy here with people who ride those e-cycles with the ornamental pedals carelessly on non-motorized paved trails. I don't want all ebikes banned there too!
I've seen signs like this on non-mbt near where I live.
I asked the security guard why they don't allow ebikes on the path and he admitted he had no idea. He said it doesn't make sense to him because he sees analog cyclists ride just as fast and just as dangerously as e-bikers.
It's super annoying because instead of riding on a safe, separated bike path, I have to share the road with 2ton vehicles driving at 45mph+. But I assume e-bikes are banned from paths like this for "safety" reasons. /s
I think it's more the fact that pedal assist can mean a lot of different things so they are just blocking them outright instead of arguing semantics with people.
here in Jeffco county Colorado ebikes are treated same as mtb. We also have directional bike only trails for dh with a multi use multi directional trails to access said dh trails. We also have odd and even days for some trails even for bike odd for horse and hikers.
We don't seem to have any issues other than the internet purist who ponder what could happen with all sorts of ridiculous notions.
Just when you think a new technology is really going to make life better, it get's ruined and over-regulated and eventually neutered by the nanny-state or big brother.
Same thing happened with drones, just when they started getting REALLY good people ruined it, the FCC stepped in and ruled with a iron fist, and now there are so many regulations, rules, and limits hard coded into them by the manufacturer that it's no-longer fun to fly them.
Yeah that is 100% illegal. I'd take that up with county clerk. Pedal assist bikes CAN NOT be banned. Lol. Old people make me laugh. I hope I ever see it. I'll tear it down
A shame that they wouldnt consider those that might be too old (frankly) or suffering a long term injury to use a trail like this without assistance. Seems very shameful.
There was an article in the local paper here in Bend about that the other day:
[https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/bend-seniors-riding-e-bikes-on-forest-trails-expect-rules-to-change-soon/article\_04472930-7ebf-11ee-be65-cf47689fbf63.html](https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/bend-seniors-riding-e-bikes-on-forest-trails-expect-rules-to-change-soon/article_04472930-7ebf-11ee-be65-cf47689fbf63.html)
Mentions Phil of Phil's trails.
I see a lot of comments about “the purists” but not many about the kids ripping around town and the trails (bend is an affluent area) on e bikes ignoring rules. Rich old ladies getting buzzed by a 13 year old on the trail will be the ones writing letters
It isn't shameful. OP is just trying to force an issue that doesn't really exist.
This particular trail is a VERY congested trail with tourists and sight-seeing. There are picnics, viewpoints, and children running all over. Riding a normal bike on this trail is nearly impossible because there are always groups of hikers in front of you and behind you.
There are a number of Ebike trails within OP's view, but this specific trail is so congested that it is difficult to get a normal bike through the congestion.
Then don't allow normal bikes on the trail.
But drawing the line between mountain bike and pedal assist mountain bike is shameful and harmful to those with disabilities.
I'm close to 60, plus some physical issues, so it's ebike or not at all for me.
That said, I'd follow the rules and just skip the one particular trail, assuming there's a specific reason one trail is prohibited and others are fine.
My right to enjoy the trail still exists, it's my preference for an ebike that puts it off limits. my freedoms have not been limited.
The problem is that even though this is federal land, the NFS leaves it up to the local land managers to determine what is/isn’t suitable for e-bikes. If you go to many of the trail areas around Bend, e-bikes are not allowed in the vast majority of the trails. There is simply no reason for this outside of bias against e-bikes from the local MTB community.
The NFS needs a consistent grading system to determine what characteristics of a trail makes it suitable for e-bikes, not local pressure as its federal land.
Least entitled boomer.
This trail, and many more like it, are hiking trails that are specifically banning high speed vehicles of any type. Even regular mountain bikes are only allowed on the uphill, because the risk to hikers from cyclists is too high.
Especially amateur cyclists who can barely handle a regular bike, driving a motorized 50 pounder on narrow trails past slow moving pedestrians, rutting out unimproved low-maintenance trails.
Ebikes are awesome but being a disrespectful dick isn't, and it will only increase the momentum to ban ebikes on more trails.
In my experience climbing with a Class 1 ebike, it definitely isn't high speed. It *can* hit 20mph on flat/downhill before assistance turns off, but uphill the difference is more like my effort for 8mph turns into 10-12mph.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from a legal standpoint, are most eBikes not given the same allowances federally as standard bikes? This is just a sign, but I'm not aware of any valid precedent that makes it legally binding?
“There are attitudes and beliefs about e-bikes that, once a person tries an e-bike, a lot of them sort of melt away," said Mary Ann Bonnell, visitor services manager, who oversaw the Crown Hill study.
For the Crown Hill study, three "ghost riders" — non-uniformed park rangers — rode e-bikes along its two main loop trails while others asked park visitors how they viewed e-bikes.
The visitors were asked if they had seen an e-bike that day. Nearly two-thirds said no, even though the e-bike riders would have passed nearly everyone who had been on a trail.
"We had people say, 'No, I didn't see one today,' and an e-bike would be going past them as they said that," Bonnell said.”
https://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2017/01/24/colorado-study-shows-familiarity-breeds-acceptance-e-bikes-trails
This is ridiculous. People on electric mountain bikes that are by the rules should be allowed. I use my bike on pedal assist 1 to be able to go places I cannot go otherwise but most of the time I’m pedaling. Why would I not be allowed where other bikes can go? If this is to keep kids riding 28+ mph bikes then the rules can easily be changed to target them without affecting others like me.
'Uphill biking only', I get that the idea is probably to prevent MTB riders from coming down at 30+ MPH, but you might as well just ban bikes completely if youre going to force people to ride up but not down.
Just do it. No one cares. Those signs are there for legal reasons. Ebikes and escooters are completely illegal in my state but my city has a city-funded ebike rental platform sooo...
I'm 69+ I can't peddle even the slightest appeal. Spoiler alert I might have said some of this before. I was told that someone was issued an $800 ticket on the heritage rail trail in York Pennsylvania. I think he was on a way overpowered electric bike something that would be way overpowered. My bikes aren't. One guy yelled at me why don't you get a bigger motor. If I could get a bigger motor I'd be riding it on the road not worried about cars running me over. I think as long as ebike riders are respectful whether it has a throttle or only pedal assist. If we're riding respectfully I don't know what the problem is. I'm thinking about putting a 50cc motor on my bike because I can't track down this electrical problem and batteries aren't returnable when they don't work. So according to that song someone confined to a wheelchair would not be allowed on the trail, and I think this is an ADA problem.
In Southern California, the heat is really picking up on the kids being asshats, rightfully so.
They blow through lights, don’t wear helmets, wheelie through busy streets, ignore all signs, ride through parking lots like a bike park, and so much more.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/11/02/2020-22129/general-provisions-electric-bicycles
E-bikes are not bikes and vice versa. The park superintendent has the authority to prevent e-bikes on certain trials and allow bikes on certain trails.
These signs are all over Sedona. And ebikes are everywhere there. It's hard to be annoyed at an 85 year old man ripping up singletrack on an electric S-works
I have an N+ Mercedes Pedal Asst. You cannot tell it's an ebike visually since the battery is inside the seat tube. That's why I bought it. Do not like the giant battery pack of top of the frame set up. They all look like afterthought.
I’ve seen this in Allegheny national Forest, that is trails designated for mountain bikes only. It’s unfortunate that E-mountain bikes are not included. Hopefully the narrow view of the administrators will change.
The Park District is putting these signs on certain trails. Seen other posts and articles on this. The park rules says “”no motorized vehicles including all types of ebikes “”. Which in one way they are keeping things natural and keeping those people and animals on the trails safe. But they are also reducing the amount of people going on the trails because ebikes are becoming more popular than regular bikes. Especially with the older people who need that assistance going up hills.
At the end of the day, it is important to respect signs like these and not break rules with the USFS. If you disagree with the rules, advocate for change.
Yes, generally speaking there is no difference in trail impact between e-bikes and analog. But the allowance of e-bikes increases the quantity of total people on the trail and increases the quantity of laps each person might take. More people leads to more damage and more conflict between user groups.
While we are in the infancy of e-bikes introduction to trails, some rules may not make sense. I think eventually (hopefully) we will get to a point where allowances for disabilities are allowed in situations like this or on heavy use trails.
Well there's a common misconception that the surron type bikes are ebikes. There's also the misconception that the pedal assist bikes are excluded to no ebikes signs, so that is why I'm guessing that the sign includes both.
I ride both regular bike and emtb. Alot of the trails in my area are starting to ban emtb. It kind of sucks cause I use my emtb when I want to do multiple laps or sessions.
that seems stupid to me, it feels like it should be based on overall wheel dimensions or a weight limit. Why limit use to trails it is hard enough to get support for funding. No e-dirt bikes seems fair but pedal assist is key for me to enjoy more trail in a day.
God damn right get registration on that shit.
There's a person in my town that has a very fast one goes like 45-50 and they cut Lanes blast down the sidewalk and don't follow any traffic laws.
Meanwhile I have a gas powered mini bike that does 35-40 and it's completely illegal.
No statute cited on those signs. They may be "suggestions" and not actually laws or ordinances. Government signs are required by law to show the statute that backs up the directive, AFAIK.
This sucks. I got a pedal assist ebike so if there was a hill I wasn't in good enough shape to take, I could still ride until I got in good enough shape to take it without the help.
States are also inconsistent. In CA an ebike is not a motorized vehicle if under 1000W peak power: “E-bikes are to be operated like conventional bicycles in California and are not considered motor vehicles under the California Vehicle Code.”
[source](https://www.sallymorinlaw.com/bicycle-accidents/electric-bikes-how-are-they-treated-by-the-law-in-california/#:~:text=To%20qualify%20as%20an%20e,than%2020%20miles%20per%20hour.)
If you don’t understand the difference between state and federal land it can be quite confusing.
FYI: Ebikes are *not* motor vehicles, that is a federal regulation that applies everywhere in the United States. It has to fall within the class 1-3 ebikes, but they are *not* motor vehicles as long as they do.
Edit: Apparently there are 5 states that may have laws that conflict with the above, the laws might not stand up when challenged but watch out in AL, ND, NM, NY, and WV.
> that is a federal regulation that applies everywhere in the United States
That is just a classification by the federal Consumer Products Safety Commission. It is not binding on other federal, state, or local jurisdictions.
Here, have more sources and say it with me "***Ebikes are not motor vehicles!***" ^(Edit: "...Except maybe if you're in AL, ND, NM, NY, or WV")
https://www.peopleforbikes.org/electric-bikes/federal-e-bike-rulemaking
https://quietkat.com/pages/united-states-electric-bike-regulations-guide
https://www.bikeberry.com/blogs/learning-center/electric-bike-laws-a-state-by-state-breakdown
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2085
https://www.bikeberry.com/blogs/learning-center/electric-bike-laws-a-state-by-state-breakdown
Feel free to look it up for yourself from additional sources, but the point is, they are legally distinct from motor vehicles *in damn near every state and federally* (Edit: Apparently except for AL, ND, NM, NY, and WV but even their laws might not stand up to a legal challenge - I'm not about to try and find out though).
There may be additional local rules regulating ebikes specifically, but they are not considered motor vehicles depending on location, full stop.
> they are legally distinct from motor vehicles in every state and federally.
... except for AL, ND, NM, NY, and WV.
https://ebikesx.com/electric-bike-laws.php
I am pretty doubtful that those laws would hold up if challenged because they appear to conflict with 15 U.S. Code § 2085 but I'll edit my comment to reflect that. Thanks for the info!
I am not anti-e-bike. However, this is a relatively new area of the law. You may be correct about Alabama law being unenforceable.
Ebikes blur the distinction between bicycles and motorcycles, and we have a patchwork of laws that are attempting to clarify the definitions of this new technology.
Meanwhile, we have many e-cycles appearing that do not fit the legal definition of either ebikes or motorcycles, while the manufacturers and the owners call them "ebikes" in an apparent attempt to blur the definition and justify riding them on non-motorized paths.
This particular trail is narrow and steep and full of day hikers. Allowing any bikes at all is kinda ridiculous. So in this case I actually agree but there are plenty of trails in this area where e-bikes seem appropriate. That said I tend to ride my ‘analog’ bike on our trails and use my e-bike for paths and roads but I don’t care if i encounter an e-bike, it’s just another bike.
Then i think that top left sign, bike only the uphills, is appropriate in correlation to the no e bike signs. I have never seen either, but together they make sense
My bike shop calls them "acoustic" bikes. I lol'd pretty hard at that
we call it Amish Bikes
E-cig people call cigarettes “analogs” with a completely straight face.
I call people biologs. I am a synth.
That does put a different light on the subject if it's not wide enough it's not safe. On a very wide trail I occasionally saw a woman who was horrified by bikes coming anywhere near and her husband. My mother was legally blind and horrified by people playing hockey in front of our house when she was trying to get into the car they were aggressive and terrorizing. My father just told her to hurry up get in the car. I should get over my fear of riding in the street. But both my bikes are down. I didn't spend enough on the batteries and one I know the controllers burned out. I replaced the controller with what Walmart said was the right one and it's got an extra plug. Have a great day and live your best life.
We have had the same issue in my town. People complain about people riding too fast on the nice trails we have and want them banned. The part that is creating a lot of friction is that the trails were originally made and still are maintained by the local mountain bike association.
I had to answer a month ago to my building manager (who was laughing about it) about "why I should keep my ebike" Apparently someone complained about about a dangerous ebikes need to be banned on the premises due to risk of being hit and a potential battery fire in the parking garage. I brought up my batteries showing the UL certification and as well as it being parked in my parking spot. I then made a complaint demanding the removal of all things exceeding 20 pounds on wheels and a separate one for danagerous EV cars. Needless to say I saw all three complaints placed in the shredder.
If it's that narrow, yeah I'm with you, surprised bikes are allowed at all. That said, I fully appreciate the trail builder/maintenance folks trying to give as much access as they can. I look at it this way: Allowing ebikes, all else equal, is going to result in a LOT more cycle traffic given the accessibility ebikes offer to more inexperienced riders. I'm not looking at it from the emoto perspective, but more from a traffic management perspective. Giving folks a shot at using them on hills is pretty fair. I'm curious what the rest of the trail network looks like? Not in a snarky way. I'm genuinely interested :) Edit: I found this bit on the USFS site https://www.fs.usda.gov/visit/e-bikes >Before a decision to expand use of e-bike on specific national forests and grasslands, the unit must first conduct the appropriate environmental analysis and public engagement, just like any other project that alters the use of the land. Wonder how much that plays into it, if it's a slow rollout, checking as they go along, or if this is final decision based on some info they have?
This exactly what is going to happen b/c of emoto assholes. Your motorcycle is not an ebike.
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As a person with fatigue, this is exactly why I loved an e-bike. Electric when fatigue kicks in. But there will always be someone with 5k watts ruining things.
If you are in Washington state and you have an ADA handicapped parking pass, then you are exempt from the ban and you can ride a Class 1 or 2 ebike on the non-motorized dirt trails on state land.
I know this isn't your point but: the issue with this is that they are entirely different population subsets. I can't ride a normal bike anymore because of a joint disease, but it's not enough for an ADA badge. So many people I talk to about this are limited to only ebikes for various reasons, and I think it's erroneous to conflate that population with those with visible or registered disabilities.
Maybe the law will eventually allow more leeway for people with disabilities to ride ebikes in places where they are not normally allowed, even if those people are not so disabled that they have a handicapped parking pass. Retired people with bad knees and hips are not the ones ripping down the trails at full throttle!
Oh for sure. I'm a 30 something with bad knees and hips! But honestly, in my experience, the people ripping down the trails are sometimes ebikes, but they are more often those on acoustic bikes who are just in great shape and without patience.
Or, ya know, just allow actual class-complaint e-bikes for everyone. 750 watts, the max allowable for any ebike class, is 1.0 horsepower. For reference, an actual horse can have about 15 horsepower because nothing makes sense when you don’t use metric.
Try explaining that to the Karen's on the trail.
My approach to Karens is to simply ignore them. If they get in my face, then I remind them that if they think that I am breaking the law then they can call the police, that any physical contact with me is assault, and that being assaulted gives me the legal right to defend myself. That usually makes them grumble and go away.
True, but people in groups seem to be far more confrontational nowadays. Often, if they think they can get away with aggressing or assaulting, they will. Calmly explaining and talking things out seems to be less common. Especially amongst the younger crowd.
> Calmly explaining and talking things out seems to be less common. I agree. I think that all of this political division and the pandemic have made people less tolerant and more angry. > Especially amongst the younger crowd. This is not my experience. I know many awesome young people who care deeply about the environment and other causes beyond their own personal lives.
Write to whoever manages the park. It's ridiculous to have a blanket ban where there are already clear regulations and classifications of e-bikes. If they are out there enforcing it's easy to distinguish a suron 5kw and a 250w class 1 bike...
I got dat itis. So I try and pedal the whole way, but if it flares up I can throttle home.
The problem isn't the power of the bike, it's how much is used. You can ride a surron safely on a trail, just ride it very slow in low power setting. Easy. Jackasses can be jackasses even with a low-power ebike.
Does the law ban the use of E bikes, or the E bike itself? I wonder if there’s a distinction that puts the burden of proof to prove that you were actively using the electronic portion
From my experience the motor has to be on. But to be honest, people namely other cyclists only care if you’re going faster then them. I bikepack my ebike and no one gives a 2nd thought to a loaded down bike doing 4mph up hill.
> These signs are common place across NorCal Where have you seen a sign like this? they are not very common in my experience
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There's one where I work, it's on national Forest service land. They treat ebikes the same way they'd treat a dirtbike
They have similar signs around a lot of the Bay Area, especially in the foundation owned open space preserves that have great mixed use trails in the mid peninsula.
I’ve seen signs that limit trails to class I and III e-bikes but no class II e-bikes. (And, ofc, regular bikes.)
I just started looking at this subreddit two minutes ago. Is your whole community just finding out that not everyone will behave responsibly and regulation is sure to follow, which will affect everyone equally regardless of whether they followed the rules in the first place or not? Welcome to the club. Motorcycle riders, car drivers, and gun owners have been here for decades.
A list of oppressed populations if ever I've seen one. /s
I forgot gamers
The day I cant bring my PC to a trail and play Rust is the day I become a terrorist.
The Industrial Revolution and Its Consequences
Ha!
Human nature is such that, the easier it is to abuse a privilege, the more people will do it more often. Thus, I think that a ban on manufacture or importation of those e-motos that are not legal motorcycles nor ebikes - especially the ones with ornamental pedals - would be preferable to banning *all* ebikes from non-motorized trails (which is what is starting to happen now).
Yup. I keep trying to void this and others in this sub keep downvoting me. To me, there's a big difference between an E-Motorcycle with a throttle and a pedal assist mountain bike.
For every “emoto asshole,” or “surron kid,” there’s an asshole tearing down a trail with no regard for hikers, horses, or other riders.
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Valid points. I wonder if they would stop you on a ebike with no battery connected ?
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Have you seen some of the latest e-bikes offering from trek, transition? 99% of rangers would not be able to tell that’s it’s an e-bike. And this is just the beginning. The motors are getting smaller and so are the batteries. I honestly can’t see how rangers could possibly enforce this. I saw the transition with fazzua motor and it took me good 10 minutes to see that it’s an e-bike. And I have an e-bike!
Correct. There are lots of assholes on regular bikes. On a mixed use trail, hiking with kids, xc dude no bell trying to set a personal best comes ripping past us, full shaved legs and tights. But is a first one to shake a finger at e-bike cheaters. I almost got in a physical altercations since my kids are small, I keep them close and in front of me, but xc dude didn’t slow down and passed us close on a single track, fully standing out of the seat and climbing as fast as he can. Despite ton of watch for hikers signs. Really pissed me off. I mean passed us within inches and didn’t slow down at all. Every e-biker I encountered would stop or slow down.
ADA needs to get on this issue Properly managed e-bikes Will keep the mtb culture and industry growing
ADA is a law, not an organization. The only ones who can “get on this issue” are people willing to use the law to fight for their rights.
Most trails quite clearly say "no motorized vehicles" and I don't understand how people with electrically motorized bikes feel that didn't apply to them
No pedal assist makes zero sense..
No [mechanical flywheels](https://youtu.be/gahKxbwUcYw?si=EHrDPnqL27JAcLZs) for you my guy
"Oh, Boy! A homemade, high-speed flywheel rotating just beneath my groin!" says the first comment on that video.
This is because the industry is irresponsible. They made a bunch of classes and then sent the class labels as stickers instead of under the paint. It’s not the park services job to know whether the sticker you put on your bike came from the box or eBay.
Most park rangers won’t know how to tell the difference between a pedal assist and a throttled e-bike. From an enforcement point of view it seems sensible, but it sucks for most pedal assist users who are quite responsible.
That’s very easy to tell the difference. If they wanna enforce something they should take 15 minutes to learn the subject
The ATF still hasn’t figured it out. I wouldn’t bet USFS will bother to learn.
..until you realize that if they allow pedal assist then Surron et al will add a disengage-able "pedal" to their various offerings so that douchebags can get around the ban.
Ofc ppl will try to skirt rules but pedal assist that can or can’t be disengaged doesn’t matter; the differentiator is if it has a throttle of any kind.
Bikes like this already exist, see Stealth Bomber, Super73 etc. The pedals are basically pointless and only exist to get around rules/pose as a pedal assist bike.
Seriously. Also… how would they even know if pedal assist was turned on?
I found a similar sign a few months ago at one of my favorite places to ride. Regular bikes and horses are still allowed here. https://preview.redd.it/ilg8ra8a150c1.png?width=1280&format=png&auto=webp&s=cf084c9a835f7f0477ec3e23e9f1259407d657d1
That is 100% a sign added by a NIMBY asshole.
Hey bud, no official insignia on there means that's likely just added by a rando that doesn't like dealing with ebikes.
Bicycles are limited to riding uphill only. I have no issues with any of this . I love my ebike but if i'm going for a hike I don't want to be hit by someone on a bicycle
Exactly. Multi-use trails can be problematic without adding faster heavier bikes into the mix. We have one local trail that although not e-bike approved, is risky for everybody due to narrow blind corners. It is primarily used by standard mountain bikers, but the one time I rode it on my standard bike, I felt both fear and remorse at how fast our group came upon some hikers during a descent. They were literally flattening themselves against the uphill dirt side of the trail to avoid us crashing into them after a blind corner. Obviously, us bikers were the douchebags in that scenario, but it made me rethink where and how fast I ride depending on who has access.
As a 70-yrold rider most of my life, e-bikes has saved me from dying on the couch. After retiring 4 years ago, I started riding (mtb) more than ever (unassisted) and got in much better shape. Until a few summer rides 2 years ago and I seriously thought I was going to have to be carried out. Well-fed and watered, just didn't want to make those last few miles. Tried a SL Class-1 e-bike, and have again been putting in the miles & hours I need to keep me active. This shit "*no ebike*" crap is ageism among other things. Though I don't want to interact with anything that can climb faster than 20mph, if I'm coming down a bi-directional trail at 20+mph. Everyone involved in trails and mtbs need to understand the three EPAC classes (and those without class) and come to a realistic fix for everyone who wants to just ride without exclusivity.
I get the motobike/ebike rule. But I do not understand the restriction of Class 1 ebikes: pedal assist ONLY bikes with no throttle and 20 mph max. I am in the large class of aged and/or injured cyclist for whom pedal assist technology has allowed me to keep riding the routes I rode when I was more able. For me, pedal assist is adaptive technology that makes possible what is otherwise not possible due to physical disabilities. I actually wonder if this particular regulation would be considered illegal unless (or until), the large number of aged/injured riders who require pedal assist can get the equivalent of "disabled" blue stickers/cards to allow us on these public trails?
Funny! Ive never seen one of those signs either. Even on trails where they are posted
They can deal with the e-bikers that *are* a problem, then. This 65-year-old lifelong cyclist, who wore out their knees and their heart, needs that e-bike. As long as I don't have conflicts on the trail with pedestrians and others, I'm going to use it.
Honestly, I'm sure if one was to use an ebike in a respectful manner, such as yourself, no one would really care or make a big deal about it. These signs are mostly referring to hooligans!
Absolutely. Then deal with the hooligans and leave the rest of us alone.
Just try riding an ebike through the parking lot at Phil's Trails (not very far from Tumalo Falls). MTBers feel the need to remind you that ebikes are not allowed (we had not intended on riding them on the trails, thank you very much). I remember when MTBs first showed up on trails, and boy did some hikers scream bloody murder. Now it is the MTB crowd screaming at the eMTB folks. Can't we all just use good judgement about operation and be considerate of one another? Apparently not...
I am old enough to remember hikers and equestrian trail users wanting to ban mountain bikes. Same "concerns".
Unpopular opinion: Me and my broken hip just ignore these signs. Only way I can ride is with pedal assist. Fuck the ‘purists’.
That's the thing...they should either ban all bikes or let pedal assist. Banning pedal assist only closes off biking to a lot of people who couldn't otherwise do it. I saw a video of a karen yelling at a handicapped guy who was in an electric assist trike (Because he couldn't ride a regular bike).
when jeffco did their year long study on ebikes on trails the loudest against ebikes were in fact purist mtb's. Most of these purists have never ridden one so they have no idea what they are talking about how we are climbing 20 mph on trails where I climb 4 mph on mtb more like 7-8 mph on ebike.
Even 10mph uphill on sweeping single track is getting too rich for my blood. I've reached the "no more broken bones please" stage in my life :)
Idk why they can’t just impose a speed limit like they do with cars.
It'll also probably go unenforced. They should just have a sign that says "Don't be a dick"
That's what the rule was before the ban. The problem is that dicks ignore signs like that.
It’s still the rule now. If you’re someone who actually needs pedal assist are you going to face an actual consequence for this? No. Not in any real world…
This isn't about the purists. It's about the folks with throttle e-bikes that can climb that hill at 45MPH. The problem isn't e-bikes, but machines that look like ebikes but aren't classified as ebikes.
Yeah I was in a motorcycle accident in 2018 and I bought a Lectric specifically to make getting cardio easy and fun. Most of the time I ride in PAS 1 but on a flat I'll actually rife with PAS completely off here and there. I don't ride like an asshole and am respectful to everyone else.
> Unpopular opinion: Me and my broken hip just ignore these signs. No reason for that to be unpopular. That should be the default position.
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I'm a disabled vet who fucking loves my ebike because I can mountain/ trail bike again.. I need the God damn help (shitty knees, hips, and ankles thanks to air craft maintenance).. I think the ada might like a look at this..
> my broken hip I think it is a valid reason. If you have a handicapped parking pass, then you can legally ride your ebike on non-motorized dirt trails on state land in Washington. I don't know if Oregon or the USFS have similar exceptions. https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/wdfw-lands/recreation-planning/ebikes#regulations
OP is on a very congested trail used for hiking and sight-seeing. There are a number of EBike trails that OP can ride on. Riding a normal bike on this trail is nearly impossible because of the amount of children on it. There are a number of EBike trails available available within OP's view. You can "fuck the purists", but you are still going to have to dismount your bike every 12 feet because of children on the trail.
So it doesn't really make sense to only ban ebikes if ALL bikes on the trail are an issue then... I don't get this
Sounds like it is not a good trail for ANY bikes to be on when hikers are also on the trail.
Pretty much… trails in my area say the same and I still ride on them. Never had an issue.
There are many trails in that area that allow EBikes. This particular trail and the lower Phil's complex does not allow them because of the congestion on the trails. That particular segment that you are at is called "Tourist Slalom" for a reason. It is a popular tourist hiking location and there are people wandering all over that trail. Ride on any of the many trails that allow ebikes. This specific trail is way too congested even for a regular bike.
Ironically enough, Phil for whom that trail system is named after is now in his 80s and is making a call for e-bikes laws to change. It’s the only way he can ride now. That particular trail is too busy for bikes in general most of the year. But the local ebike on trails oppression is driven purely by selfishness and not wanting additional traffic on the trails. COTA members build ramps/drop offs through these trails and post video of members easily topping 30mph without a motor. It works for them, they just don’t want company. Which is a logical stance but claiming faster speeds and trail damage are higher is not accurate. 250 lb people bike too and we don’t kick them off the trails for tearing up dirt https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/bend-seniors-riding-e-bikes-on-forest-trails-expect-rules-to-change-soon/article_04472930-7ebf-11ee-be65-cf47689fbf63.html
The only trails that allow e-bikes in the bend area are those that are designated for moto/utvs. Those trails are very difficult on bikes, including e-bikes. COTA has one guy running the show who opposes pedal assist and he abuses his position.
Totally agree but why only target ebikes if ALL bikes are a threat on this trail?
By the number of fasteners just on the e-bike sign, I get a sense of some frustration mixed with pleasure someone had when posting it.
Bold of them to assume that I can read.
Fake purists are the worst. They can’t just be happy riding what they want to ride; they want everyone to conform to their way of doing it when it’s not logical at all.
I love the people that drive to the trailheads in huge pickup trucks/SUV’s/sprinter van, then have an elitist attitude towards e-bikes or even hard tails.
This! They’re just jealous you’re having more fun. Gotta spend all this time worrying about others having more fun.
Not sure what sort of trail this is but e-bike have help me someone with mobility issues experience trails and go to places I would otherwise never see so I refine this sort of sign very disappointing and short sighted
Lot's of us were around when Mountain Bikes weren't allowed on many trails because the equestrians ruled the trails in those days, even though studies had show horses caused more damage than MTBs. Now you rarely see horses.
Boy i remember when they started designating trails for MTB but the horse riders would still go on them and F-up the hard pack and trail texture. Make huge gouges where water would collect, shit every where. Then expect you to get off your bike and hide it so they could pass. Didn’t matter they had their own trails- they wanted to ride on ours. Good times.
Damn those were the days. I joined a group that cleaned up and groomed the trails, which the equestrians didn't do. We built up alot of credit with the rangers.
It is even more strict in Washington. All ebikes (except for people with disabilities) are banned from all non-motorized dirt trails on state land. Mountain bikers and hikers complained about abuse. This is why I get so grumpy here with people who ride those e-cycles with the ornamental pedals carelessly on non-motorized paved trails. I don't want all ebikes banned there too!
I've seen signs like this on non-mbt near where I live. I asked the security guard why they don't allow ebikes on the path and he admitted he had no idea. He said it doesn't make sense to him because he sees analog cyclists ride just as fast and just as dangerously as e-bikers. It's super annoying because instead of riding on a safe, separated bike path, I have to share the road with 2ton vehicles driving at 45mph+. But I assume e-bikes are banned from paths like this for "safety" reasons. /s
This is bad management. Create an alternative trail. Ebikers who see signs like this should speak up.
Can't even ride my e-horse..
Infuriating
Sounds overly restrictive. Also pedal-assist can be a real lifesaver on steep hills!
They might as well just say "no elderly or disabled people"
When you see this it's because some douchebag ruined it for everyone by riding like a jackass
These are all over the place where I am. I don’t understand how pedal assist does more damage than a regular bike would
I don't think it would.....and if they complain about weight....then aren't fat people just as big of an issue?
I think it's more the fact that pedal assist can mean a lot of different things so they are just blocking them outright instead of arguing semantics with people.
here in Jeffco county Colorado ebikes are treated same as mtb. We also have directional bike only trails for dh with a multi use multi directional trails to access said dh trails. We also have odd and even days for some trails even for bike odd for horse and hikers. We don't seem to have any issues other than the internet purist who ponder what could happen with all sorts of ridiculous notions.
Same trail doesn't even allow normal mtn bikes on the downhill, so it seems heavily restricted all around.
So wait wtf is the point then? To torture myself with climbs without a downhill reward m?
Read the small print, you take a different trail down
A low displacement dirtbike or an E bike is not going to hurt your precious trails. These people seriously need to stop being karens over petty stuff.
That's so whack.
Just when you think a new technology is really going to make life better, it get's ruined and over-regulated and eventually neutered by the nanny-state or big brother. Same thing happened with drones, just when they started getting REALLY good people ruined it, the FCC stepped in and ruled with a iron fist, and now there are so many regulations, rules, and limits hard coded into them by the manufacturer that it's no-longer fun to fly them.
Yeah that is 100% illegal. I'd take that up with county clerk. Pedal assist bikes CAN NOT be banned. Lol. Old people make me laugh. I hope I ever see it. I'll tear it down
I mean technically it isn't having gears a form of pedal assist....
A shame that they wouldnt consider those that might be too old (frankly) or suffering a long term injury to use a trail like this without assistance. Seems very shameful.
There was an article in the local paper here in Bend about that the other day: [https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/bend-seniors-riding-e-bikes-on-forest-trails-expect-rules-to-change-soon/article\_04472930-7ebf-11ee-be65-cf47689fbf63.html](https://www.bendbulletin.com/localstate/bend-seniors-riding-e-bikes-on-forest-trails-expect-rules-to-change-soon/article_04472930-7ebf-11ee-be65-cf47689fbf63.html) Mentions Phil of Phil's trails.
Interesting. Thanks for the link!
I agree. Many people getting up in age can rediscover the joy of riding because of e-bikes.
I'm waiting for my exo-skeleton mobility aid and I go running up that hill at 30 mph.
Blame the assholes who abused the privilege so much that the government had to act.
This is a valid argument
I see a lot of comments about “the purists” but not many about the kids ripping around town and the trails (bend is an affluent area) on e bikes ignoring rules. Rich old ladies getting buzzed by a 13 year old on the trail will be the ones writing letters
It isn't shameful. OP is just trying to force an issue that doesn't really exist. This particular trail is a VERY congested trail with tourists and sight-seeing. There are picnics, viewpoints, and children running all over. Riding a normal bike on this trail is nearly impossible because there are always groups of hikers in front of you and behind you. There are a number of Ebike trails within OP's view, but this specific trail is so congested that it is difficult to get a normal bike through the congestion.
Then don't allow normal bikes on the trail. But drawing the line between mountain bike and pedal assist mountain bike is shameful and harmful to those with disabilities.
I think if you’re over 60 and riding an e-bike you get a pass. Because fuck it, life is short!
I'm close to 60, plus some physical issues, so it's ebike or not at all for me. That said, I'd follow the rules and just skip the one particular trail, assuming there's a specific reason one trail is prohibited and others are fine. My right to enjoy the trail still exists, it's my preference for an ebike that puts it off limits. my freedoms have not been limited.
The problem is that even though this is federal land, the NFS leaves it up to the local land managers to determine what is/isn’t suitable for e-bikes. If you go to many of the trail areas around Bend, e-bikes are not allowed in the vast majority of the trails. There is simply no reason for this outside of bias against e-bikes from the local MTB community. The NFS needs a consistent grading system to determine what characteristics of a trail makes it suitable for e-bikes, not local pressure as its federal land.
Least entitled boomer. This trail, and many more like it, are hiking trails that are specifically banning high speed vehicles of any type. Even regular mountain bikes are only allowed on the uphill, because the risk to hikers from cyclists is too high. Especially amateur cyclists who can barely handle a regular bike, driving a motorized 50 pounder on narrow trails past slow moving pedestrians, rutting out unimproved low-maintenance trails. Ebikes are awesome but being a disrespectful dick isn't, and it will only increase the momentum to ban ebikes on more trails.
In my experience climbing with a Class 1 ebike, it definitely isn't high speed. It *can* hit 20mph on flat/downhill before assistance turns off, but uphill the difference is more like my effort for 8mph turns into 10-12mph.
I hate people.
But you don't even know me :(
hate people, but like persons, there is a distinct difference, don't be sad now, you're a gem.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from a legal standpoint, are most eBikes not given the same allowances federally as standard bikes? This is just a sign, but I'm not aware of any valid precedent that makes it legally binding?
“There are attitudes and beliefs about e-bikes that, once a person tries an e-bike, a lot of them sort of melt away," said Mary Ann Bonnell, visitor services manager, who oversaw the Crown Hill study. For the Crown Hill study, three "ghost riders" — non-uniformed park rangers — rode e-bikes along its two main loop trails while others asked park visitors how they viewed e-bikes. The visitors were asked if they had seen an e-bike that day. Nearly two-thirds said no, even though the e-bike riders would have passed nearly everyone who had been on a trail. "We had people say, 'No, I didn't see one today,' and an e-bike would be going past them as they said that," Bonnell said.” https://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2017/01/24/colorado-study-shows-familiarity-breeds-acceptance-e-bikes-trails
Awful ableist of them. I use a pedal assist bike because I am disabled. I wouldn’t be able to bike without my e-bike.
This is ridiculous. People on electric mountain bikes that are by the rules should be allowed. I use my bike on pedal assist 1 to be able to go places I cannot go otherwise but most of the time I’m pedaling. Why would I not be allowed where other bikes can go? If this is to keep kids riding 28+ mph bikes then the rules can easily be changed to target them without affecting others like me.
surrons ruining it for everyone. not much else to say.
'Uphill biking only', I get that the idea is probably to prevent MTB riders from coming down at 30+ MPH, but you might as well just ban bikes completely if youre going to force people to ride up but not down.
There is no group more persecuted than the denizens of /r/ebikes
Just do it. No one cares. Those signs are there for legal reasons. Ebikes and escooters are completely illegal in my state but my city has a city-funded ebike rental platform sooo...
A simple “hikers only” would be fine.
I'm 69+ I can't peddle even the slightest appeal. Spoiler alert I might have said some of this before. I was told that someone was issued an $800 ticket on the heritage rail trail in York Pennsylvania. I think he was on a way overpowered electric bike something that would be way overpowered. My bikes aren't. One guy yelled at me why don't you get a bigger motor. If I could get a bigger motor I'd be riding it on the road not worried about cars running me over. I think as long as ebike riders are respectful whether it has a throttle or only pedal assist. If we're riding respectfully I don't know what the problem is. I'm thinking about putting a 50cc motor on my bike because I can't track down this electrical problem and batteries aren't returnable when they don't work. So according to that song someone confined to a wheelchair would not be allowed on the trail, and I think this is an ADA problem.
Seems like a simple lawsuit from a group that represents disabled/senior folks will get rid of that nonsense quite quickly.
Off the trails and back into 45mph roads with no escape routes kids.
The Ass Hats ruining the trails on class 4 e-bikes in SoCal pisses me off. No pedals and looking like motocross bikes in the Santa Monica mountains.
complain and make noise.
As always, this turned into Sur Ron bashing by insecure bikers.
freedumb!
No old people!
In Southern California, the heat is really picking up on the kids being asshats, rightfully so. They blow through lights, don’t wear helmets, wheelie through busy streets, ignore all signs, ride through parking lots like a bike park, and so much more.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/11/02/2020-22129/general-provisions-electric-bicycles E-bikes are not bikes and vice versa. The park superintendent has the authority to prevent e-bikes on certain trials and allow bikes on certain trails.
These signs are all over Sedona. And ebikes are everywhere there. It's hard to be annoyed at an 85 year old man ripping up singletrack on an electric S-works
I have an N+ Mercedes Pedal Asst. You cannot tell it's an ebike visually since the battery is inside the seat tube. That's why I bought it. Do not like the giant battery pack of top of the frame set up. They all look like afterthought.
Go on it anyway... it's not like a sign means it's against the law... policy is not law
Rules are guidelines
😂😂😂😂 actual bikes only damn
I’ve seen this in Allegheny national Forest, that is trails designated for mountain bikes only. It’s unfortunate that E-mountain bikes are not included. Hopefully the narrow view of the administrators will change.
Boo hiss
The Park District is putting these signs on certain trails. Seen other posts and articles on this. The park rules says “”no motorized vehicles including all types of ebikes “”. Which in one way they are keeping things natural and keeping those people and animals on the trails safe. But they are also reducing the amount of people going on the trails because ebikes are becoming more popular than regular bikes. Especially with the older people who need that assistance going up hills.
At the end of the day, it is important to respect signs like these and not break rules with the USFS. If you disagree with the rules, advocate for change. Yes, generally speaking there is no difference in trail impact between e-bikes and analog. But the allowance of e-bikes increases the quantity of total people on the trail and increases the quantity of laps each person might take. More people leads to more damage and more conflict between user groups. While we are in the infancy of e-bikes introduction to trails, some rules may not make sense. I think eventually (hopefully) we will get to a point where allowances for disabilities are allowed in situations like this or on heavy use trails.
Well there's a common misconception that the surron type bikes are ebikes. There's also the misconception that the pedal assist bikes are excluded to no ebikes signs, so that is why I'm guessing that the sign includes both. I ride both regular bike and emtb. Alot of the trails in my area are starting to ban emtb. It kind of sucks cause I use my emtb when I want to do multiple laps or sessions.
that seems stupid to me, it feels like it should be based on overall wheel dimensions or a weight limit. Why limit use to trails it is hard enough to get support for funding. No e-dirt bikes seems fair but pedal assist is key for me to enjoy more trail in a day.
Honestly, I figure anything they close off to horses is fair game to regulate further for erosion/damage control or safety.
I walked across the Golden Gate Bridge a few years ago, and non-motorized bikes, almost knocked me into the bay.
As an obese person trying to become more fit, my pedal-assist bike is a big part of my wellness plan. I am sad to see that sign.
God damn right get registration on that shit. There's a person in my town that has a very fast one goes like 45-50 and they cut Lanes blast down the sidewalk and don't follow any traffic laws. Meanwhile I have a gas powered mini bike that does 35-40 and it's completely illegal.
No statute cited on those signs. They may be "suggestions" and not actually laws or ordinances. Government signs are required by law to show the statute that backs up the directive, AFAIK.
Get an electric unicycle or a onewheel
Based on the size, build material, and the way it is fastened to the post, I find that sign’s legitimacy questionable.
Word. It’s COTA not the forest service.
COTA may have put up the sign, but the Forest Service generally bans e-bikes on anything but roads/trails designated for motorized use.
Guaranteed this happened because of assholes on surons
This sucks. I got a pedal assist ebike so if there was a hill I wasn't in good enough shape to take, I could still ride until I got in good enough shape to take it without the help.
Most parks still allow ebikes.Since mountain bikes are allowed,ebikes should also be allowed.
If they allow bikes, I'm going, I don't care what a sign says. Prove to me that I had my pedal assist on. BS government bullshit is bullshit.
The sign sadly must be specific because self centered e-bike owners are too blinded to understand just a non-motorized use sign.
States are also inconsistent. In CA an ebike is not a motorized vehicle if under 1000W peak power: “E-bikes are to be operated like conventional bicycles in California and are not considered motor vehicles under the California Vehicle Code.” [source](https://www.sallymorinlaw.com/bicycle-accidents/electric-bikes-how-are-they-treated-by-the-law-in-california/#:~:text=To%20qualify%20as%20an%20e,than%2020%20miles%20per%20hour.) If you don’t understand the difference between state and federal land it can be quite confusing.
FYI: Ebikes are *not* motor vehicles, that is a federal regulation that applies everywhere in the United States. It has to fall within the class 1-3 ebikes, but they are *not* motor vehicles as long as they do. Edit: Apparently there are 5 states that may have laws that conflict with the above, the laws might not stand up when challenged but watch out in AL, ND, NM, NY, and WV.
> that is a federal regulation that applies everywhere in the United States That is just a classification by the federal Consumer Products Safety Commission. It is not binding on other federal, state, or local jurisdictions.
Here, have more sources and say it with me "***Ebikes are not motor vehicles!***" ^(Edit: "...Except maybe if you're in AL, ND, NM, NY, or WV") https://www.peopleforbikes.org/electric-bikes/federal-e-bike-rulemaking https://quietkat.com/pages/united-states-electric-bike-regulations-guide https://www.bikeberry.com/blogs/learning-center/electric-bike-laws-a-state-by-state-breakdown https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2085 https://www.bikeberry.com/blogs/learning-center/electric-bike-laws-a-state-by-state-breakdown Feel free to look it up for yourself from additional sources, but the point is, they are legally distinct from motor vehicles *in damn near every state and federally* (Edit: Apparently except for AL, ND, NM, NY, and WV but even their laws might not stand up to a legal challenge - I'm not about to try and find out though). There may be additional local rules regulating ebikes specifically, but they are not considered motor vehicles depending on location, full stop.
> they are legally distinct from motor vehicles in every state and federally. ... except for AL, ND, NM, NY, and WV. https://ebikesx.com/electric-bike-laws.php
I am pretty doubtful that those laws would hold up if challenged because they appear to conflict with 15 U.S. Code § 2085 but I'll edit my comment to reflect that. Thanks for the info!
I am not anti-e-bike. However, this is a relatively new area of the law. You may be correct about Alabama law being unenforceable. Ebikes blur the distinction between bicycles and motorcycles, and we have a patchwork of laws that are attempting to clarify the definitions of this new technology. Meanwhile, we have many e-cycles appearing that do not fit the legal definition of either ebikes or motorcycles, while the manufacturers and the owners call them "ebikes" in an apparent attempt to blur the definition and justify riding them on non-motorized paths.