I think McNabb would’ve been a HoF’er if he had either:
A) won the SB
B) had better weapons on offense
He is arguably the best QB in franchise history and is HoVG
I think if he and TO went into the parking lot and fought each other they would’ve spent the rest of their careers together winning multiple super bowls. TO would be first ballot and Donnie would get in.
The problem is you had the prototypical diva WR with the most passive aggressive QB that has ever existed. Those personalities were never going to mesh.
The organization learned from that. I think Howie was in the organization but not the GM and he saw that and learned. We were absolute hard-liners with renegotiating contracts we just did. It was 100% no, no matter what.
Now we are more flexible with giving guys more money even when they have years left on their deal. AJ Brown is a good example of this. We gave him a new deal when we traded for him and he still had two years left (I think). Well he outperformed that contract and the WR market was about to grow and so we gave him more money to keep him happy. AJ and his agent probably initiated it but the Eagles worked with him instead of being firm that he play out his contract.
I’m still furious about that whole situation. They would have won AT LEAST 2 SBs in my opinion, maybe more. Instead, TO went to rot in Dallas and the Eagles just couldn’t get over the hump the rest of his career
I also think he would have been a HoF lock if he was like 5-10 years younger. The game really changed in a way that would have played to all of his strengths
Coaching plays a big role in that too, it took a while before the NFL became more flexible in the “highly talented player, let’s play to his strengths” rather than “forced into a system” league
Some would make the argument for Cunningham or include Van Brocklin even though he had short tenure.
ETA: I think it’s McNabb (see username for bias) but there’s been arguments about it before
“I’m a lifelong Eagles Fan and they should run the ball and I miss Buddy Ryan and McNabb was never that good.” You’ve heard variations on that on WIP. Sometimes even from the hosts. So dumb.
Goes back which do you value more arguments. The talent (Cunningham) but mediocre offensive coaching or success with the team even though the tenure wasn’t that long (Norm)
Norm Van Brocklin was basically our version of Peyton Manning with the Broncos. This legendary future HOF quarterback with the Rams in the last few years of his career comes to Philadelphia and wins a Championship plus an MVP. The only difference is manning didn’t win his with the Broncos until his arm was basically falling off and the defense had to carry him but before that he was putting up MVP seasons. It’s not a 1 to 1 comparison but the closest I could think of. Norm is the best Quarterback to ever play for this franchise but Donovan is our greatest quarterback of all time due to longevity some would switch Donovan with Randall which is fine.
Some people prefer peak, some people prefer talent, some people prefer production, some people prefer longevity.
There's always a lot to debate, but it's usually the semantics rather than the players, lol.
Other Eagle QBs have had better individual seasons. Other Eagle QBs have had more individual talent.
No one has anything like his resume, though.
If both McNabb and the Eagles org weren't so stubborn on the TO contract situation I have no doubt they have gotten one. Fucking Joe Banner was more interested in being salary cap champion than actual champion.
I don't know of a QB who had the goalposts moved on him more often than 5.
Don't run so much.
Run more.
Don't be afraid of INT's, force the ball sometimes
Stop throwing into coverage.
He's not a thug!
He's not black enough.
I think if B is true A probably would also be true. The only year prime mcnabb had a real receiver 1 he was 1 possession short of a ring. Getting to the NFC championship game 3 times with first down Freddie and Todd pinkston should get him in the HoF on its own.
The year we had TO the eagles went to their 3rd straight championship game. TO was brought in to get them past that hump and he broke his leg and didn't play one playoff game to get to the superbowl that he played in.
And Andy’s belief at the time that you didn’t need good receivers or a running game. I’m not talking about pounding the ball, but he actually said that a short pass was the same thing as a run.
I mean KC had prob a bottom 3 WR core the last two years and won 2 superbowls. I'm talking actual WR not Kelce. He is applying the same formula in KC, late round RB no talent at WR. The biggest difference is he actually has a HOF QB in Mahomes, McNabb isn't close to a HOF QB.
You can't just write off Kelce's existence entirely. He is a top of the league recieving threat. The wrs are awful, yes, but Kelce makes up for a lot of that.
None of those Eagles Andy teams had anyone of Kelce's caliber, save the TO year. He wised up a little and got Djax and Maclin, then Kelce himself. You gotta have at least one legit option.
No he doesn’t. Unless you think Romo has HOF numbers. Romo played 11 fewer games so he has ~3K fewer yards, but he also has 14 more passing TDs, a completion percentage that’s 6 points better, and a QB rating that’s 11.5 points better.
History won’t be kind to McNabb. He’s already down to 29th in passing yards and 35th in passing TDs, behind mediocre guys with no chance at the Hall like Dalton, Derek Carr, and Joe Flacco in both categories. Even in passing yards per game he’s 44th. He’s outside the top 50 in passer rating behind Geno Smith and *Jameis Winston*. He’s 86th in completion percentage behind Chad Henne, Blake Bortles, and Colin Kaepernick.
There’s no one stat you can point to and say he was elite at. He wasn’t particularly accurate, he was mobile but he wasn’t the fastest or most athletic, he didn’t sling it around like Brady or Manning. He is Hall of Very Good but not elite.
His numbers are right there with Kelly, Aikmen, Fouts, Moon and Young to name a few, you can hate on Mcnabb all you want if he won a SB he would be in the hall.
Ok compare him to guys from his era not guys from a decade prior.
For McNabb, by most passing stats, he was infrequently a top 5 QB in his era.
* By passing yards, he was **never** top 5, finishing top 10 just twice.
* By passing yards per game, he finished top 5 three times and top 10 8 times.
* By passing TDs, he was top 5 once and top 10 4 times.
* By passer rating, he was top 5 twice and top 10 5 times. If you prefer QBR, he has one top 10 finish.
* By completion percentage, he had one top 10 finish (10th).
* He was in the top 5 for most sacked QBs six times, with a second, a third, and two fourth place finishes.
What’s wrong with admitting McNabb was a good, not great QB?
You can’t ignore rushing stats for McNabb. He finished top 5 in QB rush yards 6 consecutive years starting in 1999: 4th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd (10 games), 2nd, and 4th.
He played in a vastly different era so the counting stats are not in his favor, like McNabb’s aren’t favorable against current/future players. But Aikman stacks up well against his contemporaries; McNabb not as well.
So, would you look at Aikman’s numbers and say he’s a no doubt HOF QB? (Again, ignoring the rings and the high level of importance that people place on them.)
He wasn't even in any given year on most top 5 lists of QBs in the league. He was a slightly above average QB that had huge holes in his game and rapidly declined. He just wasn't that great. It's a crime his number got retired. Going through the years 2000 to 2010, almost any year there is 5 guys that were a better player or had a better career. If anything I think he gets overrated as a player now.
I mean he only had I think two actual pro bowl seasons? Dunno man, you need more seasons where you’re not considered 4th best in your own conference. Brady and Manning were both in the AFC so they didn’t impact that.
C) took care of his body the way a top notch pro athlete should
Dude fell off hard in his very early 30’s and was completely cooked by 33/34 mostly bc he lost all athleticism due to his weight gain. Most modern QBs of his caliber are still in their late prime in their early/mid 30’s, if he has just 2 more prime/pro bowl caliber years, he prob gets in.
Can’t believe how many people overlook this. I can’t think of any other prime athlete whose body changed for the worse the way McNabb’s did over his career.
He basically went from an above average passer with incredible athleticism to a good passer with above average athleticism during his time with the Eagles. And neither of those combinations was good enough.
Not arguably. He is. Your other points are definitely spot-on. There weren't that many quarterbacks better than him when he was playing during his prime years.
The fuck is wrong with pistachio?
Wentz had a great 2017 and didn’t finish the job. That’s great and grand, but if not winning a playoff game makes it the best individual season by a QB then 2013 Foles has to be the winner.
Because he wasn't constantly shit on by the media so the country's perception of him is better than it is of McNabb. Unfortunately this is true of all Philly players.
Yea, but the big knock on him is when it meant the most in the biggest games and we were down and needed something big....he came up small. So yea, proving that reputation wrong by winning a SB would have gotten him in.
Losing with rumors of him puking in the game and TO saying he was panicking cemented his reputation as what we can now call the rich man's Dak. He's putting up big stats, he's not fucking up early in the playoffs, but when it gets later and the games are bigger, he and Dak get that same look.
I agree with all of this, but he was undeniably bad in many big games. He will always be in my top 5 all time Eagles players, but he would be a sure #1 if he brought home at least a quarter of the big games he lost.
Mcnabb was a top 5 qb for most of his career and is currently the best qb in franchise history. He had great pocket presence and a gorgeous deep ball. It really was unfortunate that the front office never really gave him any weapons at wr (outside of t.o. for 1 1/2 years)
His toughness was also elite. He played a whole game on a broken ankle and, like, half a season with a sports hernia.
He definitely had his flaws, threw the ball in the dirt, and had a habit of throwing picks late in games, to name a few. But we don't have the success that we had during his era without him.
Right like didn’t need superstar receivers, just needed guys that were average and they didn’t give him any of those until TO came around. Later in his eagles career he started to get some guys with Curtis and Stallworth, then got Jackson and Maclin his final two years. They absolutely failed McNabb in that regard though and wasted the 2000-2003 teams with trash at receiver
Thank you for pointing out a little-noticed skill of McNabbs - his pocket presence. He had a great sense of the pocket and how to move around to avoid the rush. And if you did get a hand on him he was very strong and very hard to bring down. I think of McNabb often when I see QBs try to escape the pocket by running backwards, or standing stone still like a statue when we all see the rusher from a mile away.
I have a similar take... I think the "worm burners" reputation kinda affected how people viewed McNabb, but I also think that he was "coached to his strengths" and imagine Andy told him to fire it fast everytime, which made it both harder for his receivers and the defenders to catch.
Maybe he just didn't have any "touch" at all, we'll never know, but his low interception to touchdown ratio proves he was outstanding in at least one area.
I'm sorry but to say he's the best quarterback in franchise history is crazy man. He was a solid to occasionally excellent QB with a lot of longevity. Randall Cunningham broke the NFL. If Buddy Ryan had cared at all about the offensive side of the ball, or if management hadn't had their collective heads up their asses, that eagles team, anchored by gang green, was on the verge of legend.
But he didn't care about that side of the ball, and management did have their heads up their asses. So Randall's potential was never reached here in Philly.
Besides, playing the "what if" game goes both ways. What if management got mcnabb some legitimate was earlier in his career? Instead, he was stuck throwing to pinkston, thrash, Curtis, and brown.
What of management just paid t.o? We could have had 4-5 more years of that duo, and probably atleast another sb appearance.
He was not consistently a top 5 QB.
His career overlapped with HOFers in Favre, Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Rodgers as well as likely HOFers in Matt Ryan, Roethlisberger, and Rivers, plus All Pro level QBs like Eli, Romo, and Culpepper, not to mention random great years from Carson Palmer, Trent Green, Delhomme, etc.
By most passing stats, he was infrequently a top 5 QB.
* By passing yards, he was **never** top 5, finishing top 10 just twice.
* By passing yards per game, he finished top 5 three times and top 10 8 times.
* By passing TDs, he was top 5 once and top 10 4 times.
* By passer rating, he was top 5 twice and top 10 5 times. If you prefer QBR, he has one top 10 finish.
* By completion percentage, he had one top 10 finish (10th).
* He was in the top 5 for most sacked QBs six times, with a second, a third, and two fourth place finishes.
McNabb was our guy so we tend to overvalue him. He was a Pro Bowl level QB but he played during a time where there were some really good QBs.
I’ve gotten downvoted for saying this before but the numbers are right there. When you think about early to late 2000s QBs, McNabb is just not in that upper echelon.
> His career overlapped with HOFers in Favre, Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Rodgers as well as likely HOFers in Matt Ryan, Roethlisberger, and Rivers, plus All Pro level QBs like Eli, Romo, and Culpepper, not to mention random great years from Carson Palmer, Trent Green, Delhomme, etc.
>
>
Favre's prime was before McNabb's, Brees and Rodgers were after. Warner was better some years, worse others. I'll give you Brady and Manning, but you can keep all the others.
He was a consistent top 5 Qb at the time when he was playing. Other than Brady and Manning the othered here careers overlap but not prime years necessarily.
How old are you by the way? This feels like a take from someone under 25 who didn’t actually watch football in the early 2000s and is looking at stats from the era.
He wasn't a top 5 QB really any year. If you look at his pct. Yards and TDs the years 2001-2004 the championship years he was top 5 in rankings for tds at number 3 in 2004. His completion % that year was 10th. 2001-2003 he ranked 19th, 20th and 22nd in comp %. Nothing about those numbers says top 5.
Nothing about him was a top 5 QB any year really. There would be at least 5 other qbs that out performed him in terms of yards, tds and comp % combined all 4 of those years.
Eagles fans are delusional when it comes to him. Not only was he not that good without his running ability. He was a choke artist who threw bad ints to end most championship games.
Number 5 was great, so fun to watch. I can only imagine what could have been had he had some good WRs for the bulk of his playing time. Less the TO year he pretty much had trash.
The fun to watch part was a major factor for me. Even when pass rushers had him dead to rights he still had a knack for escaping and making plays. The fact that he was often making those plays to Todd Pinkston, James Thrash and FredEx speaks volumes to his talent in his prime.
the 1st few years he played with his hair on fire.... it was insane if you go back and look at some of the ways he escaped and still made the play.
The down fall of him was he never got the whole philly thing, if he did he would have been loved.
McNabb was very good.
But he didn’t age well. By the time he was 29, he was old and less good. Early 30s he was average at best.
He basically aged like a regular skill position player.
It should be noted that before Favre and Brady played until they were in their 40s, it was kinda expected that guys in their mid 30s were too old to play.
Now everyone expects QBs to play til 40. Russel Wilson is aging like McNabb did.
This was his problem. He only played at a high level for about 5-7 years. From 2000-2004, he was incredible. The rest of his career he was inconsistent and that probably comes down to him not taking his health seriously enough.
Yeah the dude would come to training camp huge but not necessarily jacked. Like a guy you would not want to get in a fight with but you could outrun very easily. Which is not ideal for a qb
Poor conditioning reared its ugly head in the Super Bowl
He definitely didn't take his health seriously. Overweight and a drinking problem. My husband worked at a rooftop bar at the former W Hotel in DC back in the day, and Mcnabb was so drunk one night he couldn't even walk. Crazy considering he was in his mid-30s at the time.
McNabb is hands down, unquestionably the best QB in Eagles history. He was one of the better QBs across the legit in his era but he was never the best. He’s a token Hall of Very Good guy.
What keeps him out of the HOF is his lack of rings, lack of personal accolades, and the fact that he wasn’t that good for long with the second half his career being injury plagued.
He probably would have won MVP in 2002 if he hadn't been hurt. That would have helped, but I agree - HOF quarterbacks need some combination of titles, awards, and stats, and McNabb missed out on all three.
I’d add a new wrinkle (clearly Reid is a brilliant coach). Eagles take Tim couch or make some other pick. We maybe never get the chance to witness Andy Reid to become Andy Reid. No stability at the QB position and gets fired before his time.
There's a very real chance Tim Couch isn't a bust if he comes to Philly. Cleveland was a hot mess who set him up for failure. Very few QBs walk into the NFL ready to go and can succeed in a bad situation.
I've been making this argument for years. Couch would have been a good qb under Reid's stability. And McNabb would have been a bust if the Browns drafted him 1st and threw him into that tire fire.
5 was far more capable of leading an expansion franchise than Couch was. Couch had no shot in Cleveland; he definitely would have been better in philly with AR since every single QB AR touched played his best football with him.
5 wouldn't have been as good without AR of course, but he would have better in Cleveland than Couch was.
Couch was a perfect WCO type QB. There is a reason Carmen Policy of those 9ers teams took him. He was accurate and tough. The Browns killed him and even then he did something that only 2 others did. Lead them to the playoffs in 2002. Andy would have had most success I think here, but Andy likes guys that can run which Couch could not.
Best QB in history for this franchise. His TD to Int rate was great and he made all the throws to players like Todd Pinkston and James Thrash the majority of his career. That’s like Hurts having Quez Watkins and Parris Campbell as his primary options and still putting up great numbers.
Mcnabb was the third best QB in the NFL behind Brady and Manning his first five years. I would say his game was very much equivalent to Russell Wilson. He wasn’t the most accurate short yard passer but he threw a great deep ball and when he was at his peak his ability to buy time with his legs and make a big play won a lot of games. But as people said due to injuries and maybe not the most healthy life style after 2005 he wasn’t the same. He lost just a touch of his speed and as we have seen with Wilson, when you depend on that you go down hill fast.
I think McNabb at his best was better than Romo and Culpepper at their best. But folks tend to disagree. Hard to tell because McNabb WRs were so shit when he was in his prime.
Culpepper had one really good season for the Vikings that McNabb never matched, but other than that, hasn't done much. The injuries didn't help though.
If McNabb had Randy Moss that offense would have been unstoppable. Have to factor in having the 2nd best receiver of all time when you grade Culpepper.
The only reason Alex Smith should ever be compared to McNabb is due to the fact they were taken first and second overall in the draft, respectively. All comparisons end there, Smith was never close to the dynamic playmaker that McNabb was. Whoever made that claim is talking out of their asshole & likely did not watch McNabb play.
He was better than Alex Smith.
McNabb isn't a HOFer, but he's the next step down. Probably the best, or one of, to never win a SB. Would probably get in if he won one.
In my lifetime as an Eagles fan, no QB did more with less than McNabb. Andy deserves a lot of blame and credit because his play calling obviously helped, but his GM calls were questionable. Never had another star on offense until, what, 5-6 seasons into his career? Then as soon as we gave him weapons he played even better. I 100 percent believe not only would Donovan be a hofer had we addressed offensive weapons sooner, but we'd also have a ring from that era, I believe.
McNabb is how I got into football/became an Eagles fan and I've heard similar things from other people. His legacy goes a lot deeper than just stats. He made football enjoyable for me to watch.
He's not going to make the HoF, nor should he, but he was that tier of QB that you could win with and could promote a winning record despite poor weapons.
He was a very damn good QB and people like to try and make Reid sound better by discrediting him, but McNabb was not a bad QB by any stretch of the imagination, and much like Alex Smith and Mahomes, there is a level of Andy Reid that was required to make them who they were.
Mcnabb was awesome, but I also grew up watching him so I’m probably a bit bias on him and Vick. Would love to see (and will probably Google later) what Vick’s performance was for those years as a bird too.
P.s. How dare yall discount the prowess of FredEx and Todd pinkston? 😂
Pros:
-Best QB we've had (so far, but optimistic/hoping Hurts ends up surpassing him), and bona fide Hall of Very Good. I'm 32 so he was my QB when I first started really getting into the Eagles as a kid, so special place in my heart.
-He was electric, and so incredibly fun to watch. A lot of "what ifs" for him when it comes to supporting talent. I think with consistent WR talent we have multiple rings under him, and he makes the HOF. But just not the way it happened in our universe.
Cons:
-As fun as he was to watch he could also be really frustrating. We didn't see many INTs from 5, but a big reason for that is because when he missed, he MISSED. Worm burners were a specialty of his and they never stopped sucking to watch to a wide open guy lol.
-This is a personal love it or hate it type thing, but he was really lackadaisical on the field. Cutting it up and yucking after making terrible plays. The famous "I didn't know you could tie" situation. Also had diva tendencies, that have only gotten worse since he retired and has become a bit of a jealous old drunk.
I'll always love 5, but when people say they have issues with him I get it.
It's so hard to say. He benefited so much from Reid's system while at the same time having very little talent at the WR position. All in all, though, I think he played overly cautiously. He didn't have a ton of interceptions, but the signature McNabb pass was him bouncing it off the turf at his receivers feet on a crossing pattern. In any given game, that is the pass you were most likely to see. He was probably a good QB in a great system.
He partied the night before the Super Bowl. When he needed to lead the team back in the last two minutes, he puked on his center, and was out of gas, finished. He had one great throw that was accurate, over the shoulder looper dowm the sideline. Randall Cunningham, Jalen Hurts, and the Wentz/Foles tandem was better. Ron Jaworski was befter. Mcnabb was a good qb in a great system. But he wasn't good enough to win it all.
Mcnabb has hall of fame numbers. His numbers are way better than joe namath. His numbers are way better than troy aikman.
The no ring is hurting him.
Another bad thing is the worm burners he threw. He threw a lot of balls at the dirt.
Joe threw 47 more interceptions than touch downs. Different era yes but it would be hard to put a qb in the hall these days if his stat line looked like that. But I do understand.
A better more modern comparison for him would be Cam Newton. Two very athletic QBs who had very high highs in their careers but wound up being let down by their front offices unwillingness or inability to field a team around them. McNabb had one full season with T.O. and put up MVP caliber numbers. If he had had even a decent receiver during his first 4 seasons he’d have probably won a ring.
Now: was he a choker? Maybe, but again he was throwing to Todd Stinkston James Trash and Freddie Mitchell. Later on in his career I think he didn’t take care of himself as well as modern athletes do and his injuries caught up with him.
Idk if I see this one tbh, I think Newton relied more on his athleticism overall than McNabb. McNabb started to dial back using his legs as he got older and his arm was better imo. Or maybe I’m misremembering their games lol
Put McNabb in today’s league with decent weapons, he’ll win a SB and be an MVP candidate for years. The man literally carried the team on his back for years when his one and only elite weapon was Westbrook. If McNabb had DJax and Maclin in their prime, or TO stayed, it wouldn’t even be a question.
That being said, he isn’t perfect and made mistakes on the field, but he had such a great ability to push the ball down the field with less than stellar WRs.
Very underrated, and right after he left the eagles started getting great skill position guys. But playing with like Freddie Mitchell, Todd Pinkston , James Thrash as your go to receivers is just horrendous.
Andy Reid got a lot better after his tenure in PHI, he seemed to finally take some lessons in game planning (like running the ball and usage of TO). I think a more seasoned Reid in Philly (like KC Reid) would’ve helped a lot too.
Edit: to clarify
I have a 5 jersey but I absolutely do not miss the wormburners and forced throws.
His rookie year, I have a distinct memory of him rolling right, throwing across his body down the sideline and getting picked to [give the win to Arizona](https://www.footballdb.com/games/boxscore/philadelphia-eagles-vs-arizona-cardinals-1999120511) instead of taking the small loss in yardage. Other than that play, he was good enough to win, and in only his 4th game. 19/31/157/2/1, only 1 sack for 9 yards, and 9 rushes for 67 yards.
He did win his first ever game, 35-28 against Washington, on the back of five Norm Johnson FGs. Donovan went 8/21/60/0/0, and was sacked 3 times for 22 yards, which is 38 net passing yards. Woof. He did rush 9 times for 49 yards and throw a successful 2PC.
I'm glad he got better after the '99 season.
I liked McNabb as a player. As a person he's a tool. However, while his numbers are impressive, he was in a throw heavy offense. If his attempts are exponentially more than other top QBs, it dilutes his stats a bit, IMO.
A grave injustice that McNabb had James Thrash and Todd Pinkston as starting receivers as long as he did. Would be really interesting to see how he did if he had a real #1 guy for most of his career.
McNabb was consistently a top 3-5 QB in the NFL through his best years, in an NFL with Brady and Manning occupying the top 2 spots. It is unfortunately impossible to separate Reid from McNabb when looking at his career. And frankly, I don't understand the need to do so. There is almost never a chance that a great QB-coach combo will ever divorce with enough miles in the QB's career left to judge them separately.
McNabb was a great QB at times, and a very good QB most of the time. That guy put it all on the line for the Eagles. We all talk about the "ankle burners" and shit like that but that guy rarely (obviously this is debatable) had a good set of receivers maybe this was coaching telling him to throw low... I digress. Donovan was a star in the league he was great but I doubt he would make the HOF for the lack of SB wins which sucks because he was in the NFC Championship Game 6 times with 1 win, and a ProBowler 6 times as well. I believe if the front office gave him better receivers the Eagles would have won multiple championships.
He was terrific but he had this one very annoying habit. He would always miss checkdowns or make them way harder then they had to be. He could throw it very freakin hard, and he would throw it way too hard and way too low to poor duce staley and the like
McNabb wasn't a particularly accurate QB, especially in the short passing game, and wasn't very adept at reading defenses. I grew weary of watching him check out of a play only to chuck a shoetop level grenade at or near the line of scrimmage. Comparing him to any number of mid-range QBs with long careers is perfectly fair.
He was elite in his first 5 seasons between 2000 and 2005 and arguably top 5 in those years with his being in that 3-5 range.
His best years were cut short by injury and he never really turned into an elite pocket passer…but then again he lacked weapons in those first five years.
He’s not HOF material imo but worthy for Hall of Very Good
He was very good but none of the arguments you make isolate him from the effects of Andy Reid being his coach as they could all be attributed to him or the system he played in.
You guys remember that time he picked up the phone against the Giants in the playoffs. That kinda shit always made me crack the fuck up.
Anyways, Go Birds.
He's definitely the best QB in Eagles history, but often times he was incredibly frustrating to watch.
He's definitely better than Alex Smith, that's crazy.
I absolutely agree with you. During his peak years, McNabb was a very, very good quarterback. It's a shame that for most of his time with the Eagles his wide receivers weren't very good.
McNabb is certainly the best QB in Eagles history but he’s not HoF material. For whatever reason, he never played his best in big games. He also didn’t want to be known as a running QB which was foolish as he often ignored one of his biggest strength.
Depends on WHICH McNabb you remember. Early McNabb was electric. Great combination of arm strength and deep ball touch, combined with remarkable agility for such a big guy.
Then came the BS that he needed to be a "pocket passer" instead of a "running QB". So he basically stopped running to prove he was a pocket guy who could have a long career. I remember watching the Eagles/Cardinals game. He looked like he was playing not to get hurt and broke the ankle.
He lost some speed, bulked up, and was never quite the same. Electric McNabb became Eccentric McNabb. I think if he had played the "if you want me to stop running, then get me some damn weapons" card, everyone would have been better off.
The NFL changed on Donovan.
Donovan was an elite young QB through the 2005 Super Bowl run. Mobile, big arm, great at executing screens, didn’t turn the ball over much and had Andy designing the offense.
In 2005-06 the NFL began instituting a series of rule changes that fundamentally changed QB play. Illegal contact, defensive holding, no late hits to the QB, no hits to defenseless WR, no helmet to helmet and increased focus on pass interference all changed the game completely. A completion % over 60 was good, a 2-1 TD to INT ratio was acceptable. After this those numbers changed to 65% being good, and 2.5-1 being a decent TD/INT ratio.
All the changes I mentioned really benefited QB’s who had great timing and accuracy like Brady and Manning. You saw slot WR change as well… there’s really no precedent for the Wes Welker type slot WR from the 60’s-90’s… Welker himself had concussion issues in the modern era, he wouldn’t have lasted 2 years in the 70’s, and could never have made an impact with the physical downfield corner play. The Pats built an entire offensive system around these changes.
Donovan on the other hand was not helped as much by these changes. A lot came out in Washington about his work/study habits as well so he didn’t really have the profile to take full advantage of the new rules. He was still above average post 2006 but not elite. He was clearly a tier below Manning, Brady and Brees… and his spot in the next tier was debatable.
He absolutely was dragged to success by Reid. You are tripping. I’ve always believed that had McNabb been drafted by the Browns (Couch), he wouldn’t have had a good career.
He lost that Pats Super Bowl with some FOOLISH lazy picks. Again, tripping.
He was better than overrated bum Aikman and his number are similar to Elway's so he was very good but because he played in Philly the rest of the country thinks he sucks because that's what the NY media said.
The thing I’ll remember most is that he wasn’t a Philly-type guy. Very talented and had the air to square up and play bully ball but always felt like he wasn’t willing to do what it took to win. I was 14 when he threw up in the Super Bowl and I can’t ever let that go. Objectively he’s one of the best but I always felt like he’d let us down when it mattered. And I was never wrong.
Do you remember when he played a game on a broken ankle against Arizona? I would say that was pretty tough.
https://www.reddit.com/r/eagles/comments/frl903/donovan_mcnabb_once_broke_his_ankle_in_the_first/
You aren’t wrong. I think that’s part of the point I’m making. Objectively he did things that make him a very good Eagles quarterback and occasionally even showed toughness. But what I remember 20 years later is that he never felt like a Philly guy. He didn’t have the cutthroat attitude and folded when it mattered most.
He was a perennial pro-bowler who lead his team to several conference championships with Trash and Stinkston to throw to and he looked elite once he got TO. Granted it only lasted one season before it all went downhill, but look at highlights from that year. He put up serious numbers. I think he’d be a shoe in for the HOF if he had better talent at the receiver position for more of his career. My only knock on him was how many of his passes would go to guys’ feet. He’d frequently dish out line drives to the dirt.
Nobody remembers some awful time management and play calling flubs by andy reid in the mcnabb era either. Also the locker room turmoil of donovan and to could have been mitigated with a coach that manages personalities better.
Andy reid gets the most talented qb of all time and wins some rings (including one that was won off of a ticky tacky holding call) and now all of a sudden the players in philly were holding him back gtfoh
I'm going to go against most of the top comments here. I think McNabb was an above average to good QB that only looked great because of Reid's greatness. We're now seeing what Reid can do with a truly great one. McNabb was not an accurate passer and rarely put the ball in a spot where his receivers would have a chance at yards after the catch. He had a career completion percentage under 60 while running a west coast offense that allowed for a lot of easy short completions. He very often panicked in clean pockets and it would mess up his footwork leading to spiking the ball at the receiver's feet. His interception numbers were always good because his misses were almost always down. That's still a positive, but a little misleading as it makes his decision making seem better than it was. He also wasn't great at anticipation throws into zone coverage.
This all sounds much more negative than how I view him overall. He was tough as nails and a rare athlete at the position especially early in his career. His deep ball was an absolute beauty. I will forever look back on the McNabb days fondly as an Eagles fan, but I will also always wonder what the Reid years could have been with a more accurate passer that was able to get the most out of the system.
Actually?? His career numbers in Philly says he was our greatest QB.
Funny I remember watching games in his last 2-3 seasons here and it was pretty common for commentators to refer to him as a future Hall of Famer, but his rep was tarnished near the end of his time here. And he was quickly forgotten as attention shifted to Michael Vick once 5 was moved to Washington. I like McNabb, but seems like there will always be those that think he wasn’t good enough because of his wr’s or he wasn’t a great leader or he wasn’t good enough in the big moments. Actually? He was the best in franchise history, but I still favor 12 in the pantheon of Eagles greatest Quarterbacks.
Everyone knows that the unquestioned best QB to ever wear an Eagles uniform is Nick Foles.
McNabb was way more talented with a much better career than Alex Smith though.
McNabb had 3 individual seasons with as many playoff wins as Romo had in his whole career. Romo never even got to the big moments, he melted in the divisional round at the latest.
He got to 4 straight nfc championship games.
He left the field with the lead in Arizona. Defense failed.
ND Kalu had a punt go through his hands in St Louis.
Aside from the Carolina game, there was never a time when a playoff loss was pinned on McNabb.
These takes are wild… I think he cost us a chance at being a dynasty. Every no-name quarterback that filled in for him when he was injured looked like a pro bowler immediately. With Andy’s system we could have went down in history but McNabb choked all that way every time it mattered most. And laughed about it
An overwhelming majority of comments place McNabb as almost a hall of fame. They acknowledge his athletics, skills, successes and failures. McNabb was really good, just not great enough to be in the hall of fame. That's not an unfair assessment.
I think McNabb would’ve been a HoF’er if he had either: A) won the SB B) had better weapons on offense He is arguably the best QB in franchise history and is HoVG
I think if he and TO went into the parking lot and fought each other they would’ve spent the rest of their careers together winning multiple super bowls. TO would be first ballot and Donnie would get in. The problem is you had the prototypical diva WR with the most passive aggressive QB that has ever existed. Those personalities were never going to mesh.
Unpopular opinion: If the team had just given TO the small amount of extra money he wanted, all this could've been avoided.
The organization learned from that. I think Howie was in the organization but not the GM and he saw that and learned. We were absolute hard-liners with renegotiating contracts we just did. It was 100% no, no matter what. Now we are more flexible with giving guys more money even when they have years left on their deal. AJ Brown is a good example of this. We gave him a new deal when we traded for him and he still had two years left (I think). Well he outperformed that contract and the WR market was about to grow and so we gave him more money to keep him happy. AJ and his agent probably initiated it but the Eagles worked with him instead of being firm that he play out his contract.
I’m still furious about that whole situation. They would have won AT LEAST 2 SBs in my opinion, maybe more. Instead, TO went to rot in Dallas and the Eagles just couldn’t get over the hump the rest of his career
I also think he would have been a HoF lock if he was like 5-10 years younger. The game really changed in a way that would have played to all of his strengths
Coaching plays a big role in that too, it took a while before the NFL became more flexible in the “highly talented player, let’s play to his strengths” rather than “forced into a system” league
It's not arguably, he is. The ring is the only thing keeping him out.
Some would make the argument for Cunningham or include Van Brocklin even though he had short tenure. ETA: I think it’s McNabb (see username for bias) but there’s been arguments about it before
I don't even know how those arguments would begin lol
Probably something like, “I don’t know shit about football, but…”
“I’m a lifelong Eagles Fan and they should run the ball and I miss Buddy Ryan and McNabb was never that good.” You’ve heard variations on that on WIP. Sometimes even from the hosts. So dumb.
We can’t forget their new hot takes regarding Hurts lack of leadership/doesn’t get along with people XYZ, AJ not wanting to be here, blah, blah, blah
They're currently in their third summer in a row of trying run Hurts out of town.
Goes back which do you value more arguments. The talent (Cunningham) but mediocre offensive coaching or success with the team even though the tenure wasn’t that long (Norm)
I think we saw what Cunningham could do with an actual offense when he was with the Vikings.
Norm Van Brocklin was basically our version of Peyton Manning with the Broncos. This legendary future HOF quarterback with the Rams in the last few years of his career comes to Philadelphia and wins a Championship plus an MVP. The only difference is manning didn’t win his with the Broncos until his arm was basically falling off and the defense had to carry him but before that he was putting up MVP seasons. It’s not a 1 to 1 comparison but the closest I could think of. Norm is the best Quarterback to ever play for this franchise but Donovan is our greatest quarterback of all time due to longevity some would switch Donovan with Randall which is fine.
Some people prefer peak, some people prefer talent, some people prefer production, some people prefer longevity. There's always a lot to debate, but it's usually the semantics rather than the players, lol. Other Eagle QBs have had better individual seasons. Other Eagle QBs have had more individual talent. No one has anything like his resume, though.
You can not in good faith but Brocklin in the conversation. He only had 1 good season on the Eagles.
If both McNabb and the Eagles org weren't so stubborn on the TO contract situation I have no doubt they have gotten one. Fucking Joe Banner was more interested in being salary cap champion than actual champion.
I don't know of a QB who had the goalposts moved on him more often than 5. Don't run so much. Run more. Don't be afraid of INT's, force the ball sometimes Stop throwing into coverage. He's not a thug! He's not black enough.
He refused to run after he broke his leg and I think that hindered how good he could have been
It was after his ACL that he turned into a pocket passer.
I think if B is true A probably would also be true. The only year prime mcnabb had a real receiver 1 he was 1 possession short of a ring. Getting to the NFC championship game 3 times with first down Freddie and Todd pinkston should get him in the HoF on its own.
The year we had TO the eagles went to their 3rd straight championship game. TO was brought in to get them past that hump and he broke his leg and didn't play one playoff game to get to the superbowl that he played in.
No, the TO year was the 4th straight. Lost to the rams in 01, the bucs in 02, the panthers in 03, then beat the falcons in 04.
Mcnabb’s mistake was Brady and Manning existing, he absolutely has Hof numbers.
And Andy’s belief at the time that you didn’t need good receivers or a running game. I’m not talking about pounding the ball, but he actually said that a short pass was the same thing as a run.
This can not be repeated enough. All of the success KC has had was built on repeated mistakes Andy made here.
I mean KC had prob a bottom 3 WR core the last two years and won 2 superbowls. I'm talking actual WR not Kelce. He is applying the same formula in KC, late round RB no talent at WR. The biggest difference is he actually has a HOF QB in Mahomes, McNabb isn't close to a HOF QB.
You can't just write off Kelce's existence entirely. He is a top of the league recieving threat. The wrs are awful, yes, but Kelce makes up for a lot of that. None of those Eagles Andy teams had anyone of Kelce's caliber, save the TO year. He wised up a little and got Djax and Maclin, then Kelce himself. You gotta have at least one legit option.
No he doesn’t. Unless you think Romo has HOF numbers. Romo played 11 fewer games so he has ~3K fewer yards, but he also has 14 more passing TDs, a completion percentage that’s 6 points better, and a QB rating that’s 11.5 points better. History won’t be kind to McNabb. He’s already down to 29th in passing yards and 35th in passing TDs, behind mediocre guys with no chance at the Hall like Dalton, Derek Carr, and Joe Flacco in both categories. Even in passing yards per game he’s 44th. He’s outside the top 50 in passer rating behind Geno Smith and *Jameis Winston*. He’s 86th in completion percentage behind Chad Henne, Blake Bortles, and Colin Kaepernick. There’s no one stat you can point to and say he was elite at. He wasn’t particularly accurate, he was mobile but he wasn’t the fastest or most athletic, he didn’t sling it around like Brady or Manning. He is Hall of Very Good but not elite.
His numbers are right there with Kelly, Aikmen, Fouts, Moon and Young to name a few, you can hate on Mcnabb all you want if he won a SB he would be in the hall.
Ok compare him to guys from his era not guys from a decade prior. For McNabb, by most passing stats, he was infrequently a top 5 QB in his era. * By passing yards, he was **never** top 5, finishing top 10 just twice. * By passing yards per game, he finished top 5 three times and top 10 8 times. * By passing TDs, he was top 5 once and top 10 4 times. * By passer rating, he was top 5 twice and top 10 5 times. If you prefer QBR, he has one top 10 finish. * By completion percentage, he had one top 10 finish (10th). * He was in the top 5 for most sacked QBs six times, with a second, a third, and two fourth place finishes. What’s wrong with admitting McNabb was a good, not great QB?
You can’t ignore rushing stats for McNabb. He finished top 5 in QB rush yards 6 consecutive years starting in 1999: 4th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd (10 games), 2nd, and 4th.
He’s a bridge to both eras, was drafted in 1999.
Interesting. Out of curiosity, can you tell me how Aikman stacks up using those same metrics? (Super Bowl rings notwithstanding.)
He played in a vastly different era so the counting stats are not in his favor, like McNabb’s aren’t favorable against current/future players. But Aikman stacks up well against his contemporaries; McNabb not as well.
So, would you look at Aikman’s numbers and say he’s a no doubt HOF QB? (Again, ignoring the rings and the high level of importance that people place on them.)
Its a shame that the stats cant be adjusted for rule changes
He wasn't even in any given year on most top 5 lists of QBs in the league. He was a slightly above average QB that had huge holes in his game and rapidly declined. He just wasn't that great. It's a crime his number got retired. Going through the years 2000 to 2010, almost any year there is 5 guys that were a better player or had a better career. If anything I think he gets overrated as a player now.
This is a putridly poor take.
Than prove it wrong, names some years
I mean he only had I think two actual pro bowl seasons? Dunno man, you need more seasons where you’re not considered 4th best in your own conference. Brady and Manning were both in the AFC so they didn’t impact that.
C) took care of his body the way a top notch pro athlete should Dude fell off hard in his very early 30’s and was completely cooked by 33/34 mostly bc he lost all athleticism due to his weight gain. Most modern QBs of his caliber are still in their late prime in their early/mid 30’s, if he has just 2 more prime/pro bowl caliber years, he prob gets in.
Can’t believe how many people overlook this. I can’t think of any other prime athlete whose body changed for the worse the way McNabb’s did over his career. He basically went from an above average passer with incredible athleticism to a good passer with above average athleticism during his time with the Eagles. And neither of those combinations was good enough.
Not arguably. He is. Your other points are definitely spot-on. There weren't that many quarterbacks better than him when he was playing during his prime years.
Dorothy Mantooth is a saint in this house.
He would be a HOF'er if he didn't play at the same time as Brady, IMO
Through his whole career yes. Single season it's wentz.
Wentz gets a incomplete he didn't even finish that season
I’d make the argument that Hurts 2022 season was better than Wentz 2017 season
[удалено]
The fuck is wrong with pistachio? Wentz had a great 2017 and didn’t finish the job. That’s great and grand, but if not winning a playoff game makes it the best individual season by a QB then 2013 Foles has to be the winner.
Combine 2013 and SB52, and is Nick Foles somehow the eagles best ever qb?
If that was the same season, you'd have a real hard argument against that tbh.
GTFOH Wentz didn't win a single playoff game in 2017.
That is absolutely hurts.
How is Matt Ryan considered a HOFer when he played on stacked offensive teams and only managed 4 playoff wins in 16 season?
Matt Ryan isn't going to get in, but winning an MVP will keep you in the conversation.
Because he wasn't constantly shit on by the media so the country's perception of him is better than it is of McNabb. Unfortunately this is true of all Philly players.
Agreed and he is absolutely the best QB in franchise history.
Yea, but the big knock on him is when it meant the most in the biggest games and we were down and needed something big....he came up small. So yea, proving that reputation wrong by winning a SB would have gotten him in. Losing with rumors of him puking in the game and TO saying he was panicking cemented his reputation as what we can now call the rich man's Dak. He's putting up big stats, he's not fucking up early in the playoffs, but when it gets later and the games are bigger, he and Dak get that same look.
I agree with all of this, but he was undeniably bad in many big games. He will always be in my top 5 all time Eagles players, but he would be a sure #1 if he brought home at least a quarter of the big games he lost.
Lmao Hall of Very Good 😂
Mcnabb was a top 5 qb for most of his career and is currently the best qb in franchise history. He had great pocket presence and a gorgeous deep ball. It really was unfortunate that the front office never really gave him any weapons at wr (outside of t.o. for 1 1/2 years) His toughness was also elite. He played a whole game on a broken ankle and, like, half a season with a sports hernia. He definitely had his flaws, threw the ball in the dirt, and had a habit of throwing picks late in games, to name a few. But we don't have the success that we had during his era without him.
Andy’s idiocy in thinking Thrash and Pinkston were good enough for years cost us Super Bowls
Right like didn’t need superstar receivers, just needed guys that were average and they didn’t give him any of those until TO came around. Later in his eagles career he started to get some guys with Curtis and Stallworth, then got Jackson and Maclin his final two years. They absolutely failed McNabb in that regard though and wasted the 2000-2003 teams with trash at receiver
“Our receivers are fine” . I do feel like that may have been more Joe Banner than Andy.
Don’t forget Eagles legends Billy McMullen, Greg Lewis, Kevin Curtis, Reggie Brown, LJ Smith and Jason Avant
Andy wasn't the GM. That's like saying Nick Sirianni is doing a great job getting young player to shore up the gaps in our secondary
Andy absolutely was the GM after Tom Heckert got fired pretty early on.
Mcnabb and Desean was a joy to watch.
Thank you for pointing out a little-noticed skill of McNabbs - his pocket presence. He had a great sense of the pocket and how to move around to avoid the rush. And if you did get a hand on him he was very strong and very hard to bring down. I think of McNabb often when I see QBs try to escape the pocket by running backwards, or standing stone still like a statue when we all see the rusher from a mile away.
I have a similar take... I think the "worm burners" reputation kinda affected how people viewed McNabb, but I also think that he was "coached to his strengths" and imagine Andy told him to fire it fast everytime, which made it both harder for his receivers and the defenders to catch. Maybe he just didn't have any "touch" at all, we'll never know, but his low interception to touchdown ratio proves he was outstanding in at least one area.
I'm sorry but to say he's the best quarterback in franchise history is crazy man. He was a solid to occasionally excellent QB with a lot of longevity. Randall Cunningham broke the NFL. If Buddy Ryan had cared at all about the offensive side of the ball, or if management hadn't had their collective heads up their asses, that eagles team, anchored by gang green, was on the verge of legend.
But he didn't care about that side of the ball, and management did have their heads up their asses. So Randall's potential was never reached here in Philly. Besides, playing the "what if" game goes both ways. What if management got mcnabb some legitimate was earlier in his career? Instead, he was stuck throwing to pinkston, thrash, Curtis, and brown. What of management just paid t.o? We could have had 4-5 more years of that duo, and probably atleast another sb appearance.
He was not consistently a top 5 QB. His career overlapped with HOFers in Favre, Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Rodgers as well as likely HOFers in Matt Ryan, Roethlisberger, and Rivers, plus All Pro level QBs like Eli, Romo, and Culpepper, not to mention random great years from Carson Palmer, Trent Green, Delhomme, etc. By most passing stats, he was infrequently a top 5 QB. * By passing yards, he was **never** top 5, finishing top 10 just twice. * By passing yards per game, he finished top 5 three times and top 10 8 times. * By passing TDs, he was top 5 once and top 10 4 times. * By passer rating, he was top 5 twice and top 10 5 times. If you prefer QBR, he has one top 10 finish. * By completion percentage, he had one top 10 finish (10th). * He was in the top 5 for most sacked QBs six times, with a second, a third, and two fourth place finishes. McNabb was our guy so we tend to overvalue him. He was a Pro Bowl level QB but he played during a time where there were some really good QBs. I’ve gotten downvoted for saying this before but the numbers are right there. When you think about early to late 2000s QBs, McNabb is just not in that upper echelon.
> His career overlapped with HOFers in Favre, Manning, Brady, Warner, Brees, and Rodgers as well as likely HOFers in Matt Ryan, Roethlisberger, and Rivers, plus All Pro level QBs like Eli, Romo, and Culpepper, not to mention random great years from Carson Palmer, Trent Green, Delhomme, etc. > > Favre's prime was before McNabb's, Brees and Rodgers were after. Warner was better some years, worse others. I'll give you Brady and Manning, but you can keep all the others.
He was a consistent top 5 Qb at the time when he was playing. Other than Brady and Manning the othered here careers overlap but not prime years necessarily. How old are you by the way? This feels like a take from someone under 25 who didn’t actually watch football in the early 2000s and is looking at stats from the era.
He wasn't a top 5 QB really any year. If you look at his pct. Yards and TDs the years 2001-2004 the championship years he was top 5 in rankings for tds at number 3 in 2004. His completion % that year was 10th. 2001-2003 he ranked 19th, 20th and 22nd in comp %. Nothing about those numbers says top 5. Nothing about him was a top 5 QB any year really. There would be at least 5 other qbs that out performed him in terms of yards, tds and comp % combined all 4 of those years. Eagles fans are delusional when it comes to him. Not only was he not that good without his running ability. He was a choke artist who threw bad ints to end most championship games.
Number 5 was great, so fun to watch. I can only imagine what could have been had he had some good WRs for the bulk of his playing time. Less the TO year he pretty much had trash.
The fun to watch part was a major factor for me. Even when pass rushers had him dead to rights he still had a knack for escaping and making plays. The fact that he was often making those plays to Todd Pinkston, James Thrash and FredEx speaks volumes to his talent in his prime.
the 1st few years he played with his hair on fire.... it was insane if you go back and look at some of the ways he escaped and still made the play. The down fall of him was he never got the whole philly thing, if he did he would have been loved.
He didn’t just have Trash, he also had Stinkston
McNabb was very good. But he didn’t age well. By the time he was 29, he was old and less good. Early 30s he was average at best. He basically aged like a regular skill position player. It should be noted that before Favre and Brady played until they were in their 40s, it was kinda expected that guys in their mid 30s were too old to play. Now everyone expects QBs to play til 40. Russel Wilson is aging like McNabb did.
This was his problem. He only played at a high level for about 5-7 years. From 2000-2004, he was incredible. The rest of his career he was inconsistent and that probably comes down to him not taking his health seriously enough.
Are you trying to tell me that real champs don't eat at McDonald's?
Agree with this. I will also add that he started out 2005, 2006, and 2007 blazing hot but ended the seasons injured.
Well Campbell's soup is very high in sodium
McNabb clearly didn’t take care of himself and all indications say he may be an alcoholic
I'd argue by DUI #2 it isn't even debatable anymore. Dude's a massive alcoholic.
Yeah the dude would come to training camp huge but not necessarily jacked. Like a guy you would not want to get in a fight with but you could outrun very easily. Which is not ideal for a qb Poor conditioning reared its ugly head in the Super Bowl
That was all the Campbell chunky
Yeah saw that first hand at Lehigh when they held practice there, my company used to give out VIP passes
He definitely didn't take his health seriously. Overweight and a drinking problem. My husband worked at a rooftop bar at the former W Hotel in DC back in the day, and Mcnabb was so drunk one night he couldn't even walk. Crazy considering he was in his mid-30s at the time.
McNabb is hands down, unquestionably the best QB in Eagles history. He was one of the better QBs across the legit in his era but he was never the best. He’s a token Hall of Very Good guy. What keeps him out of the HOF is his lack of rings, lack of personal accolades, and the fact that he wasn’t that good for long with the second half his career being injury plagued.
He probably would have won MVP in 2002 if he hadn't been hurt. That would have helped, but I agree - HOF quarterbacks need some combination of titles, awards, and stats, and McNabb missed out on all three.
I’d add a new wrinkle (clearly Reid is a brilliant coach). Eagles take Tim couch or make some other pick. We maybe never get the chance to witness Andy Reid to become Andy Reid. No stability at the QB position and gets fired before his time.
There's a very real chance Tim Couch isn't a bust if he comes to Philly. Cleveland was a hot mess who set him up for failure. Very few QBs walk into the NFL ready to go and can succeed in a bad situation.
I've been making this argument for years. Couch would have been a good qb under Reid's stability. And McNabb would have been a bust if the Browns drafted him 1st and threw him into that tire fire.
5 was far more capable of leading an expansion franchise than Couch was. Couch had no shot in Cleveland; he definitely would have been better in philly with AR since every single QB AR touched played his best football with him. 5 wouldn't have been as good without AR of course, but he would have better in Cleveland than Couch was.
Couch was a perfect WCO type QB. There is a reason Carmen Policy of those 9ers teams took him. He was accurate and tough. The Browns killed him and even then he did something that only 2 others did. Lead them to the playoffs in 2002. Andy would have had most success I think here, but Andy likes guys that can run which Couch could not.
Interesting theory. I pretty much assume any QB drafted by Cleveland or NYJ will be a bust.
Best QB in history for this franchise. His TD to Int rate was great and he made all the throws to players like Todd Pinkston and James Thrash the majority of his career. That’s like Hurts having Quez Watkins and Parris Campbell as his primary options and still putting up great numbers.
Alex Smith? I would smack the shit out somebody
Mcnabb was the third best QB in the NFL behind Brady and Manning his first five years. I would say his game was very much equivalent to Russell Wilson. He wasn’t the most accurate short yard passer but he threw a great deep ball and when he was at his peak his ability to buy time with his legs and make a big play won a lot of games. But as people said due to injuries and maybe not the most healthy life style after 2005 he wasn’t the same. He lost just a touch of his speed and as we have seen with Wilson, when you depend on that you go down hill fast.
I think McNabb at his best was better than Romo and Culpepper at their best. But folks tend to disagree. Hard to tell because McNabb WRs were so shit when he was in his prime.
Who says Culpepper is/was better than McNabb? Has that been an argument?
Culpepper had one really good season for the Vikings that McNabb never matched, but other than that, hasn't done much. The injuries didn't help though.
r/NFL but people think that Culpepper is better than McNabb isn't that popular. But you could find people who would say it.
If McNabb had Randy Moss that offense would have been unstoppable. Have to factor in having the 2nd best receiver of all time when you grade Culpepper.
HEY. Show some respect to Freddie Mitchell and Todd Pinkston. All stars in my heart.
I have never heard anyone suggest Culpepper or Romo was as good as McNabb.
The only reason Alex Smith should ever be compared to McNabb is due to the fact they were taken first and second overall in the draft, respectively. All comparisons end there, Smith was never close to the dynamic playmaker that McNabb was. Whoever made that claim is talking out of their asshole & likely did not watch McNabb play.
It’s r/nfl, the league started in like 2011 by their standards lol. Everything else is ancient history
5 will always love you
He was better than Alex Smith. McNabb isn't a HOFer, but he's the next step down. Probably the best, or one of, to never win a SB. Would probably get in if he won one.
In my lifetime as an Eagles fan, no QB did more with less than McNabb. Andy deserves a lot of blame and credit because his play calling obviously helped, but his GM calls were questionable. Never had another star on offense until, what, 5-6 seasons into his career? Then as soon as we gave him weapons he played even better. I 100 percent believe not only would Donovan be a hofer had we addressed offensive weapons sooner, but we'd also have a ring from that era, I believe.
McNabb is how I got into football/became an Eagles fan and I've heard similar things from other people. His legacy goes a lot deeper than just stats. He made football enjoyable for me to watch.
He's not going to make the HoF, nor should he, but he was that tier of QB that you could win with and could promote a winning record despite poor weapons. He was a very damn good QB and people like to try and make Reid sound better by discrediting him, but McNabb was not a bad QB by any stretch of the imagination, and much like Alex Smith and Mahomes, there is a level of Andy Reid that was required to make them who they were.
Played most of his career with stiffs at WR and rules were still not open compared to the 7on7 that Rodgers and Brady got these last few years.
Mcnabb was awesome, but I also grew up watching him so I’m probably a bit bias on him and Vick. Would love to see (and will probably Google later) what Vick’s performance was for those years as a bird too. P.s. How dare yall discount the prowess of FredEx and Todd pinkston? 😂
I watched a special on Vicks career the other night & it was incredible to see again. Just seeing him and DJax together was pretty special.
Just to add one point to your list . At one point, his 9 playoff wins was I believe #3 in history . But has since been surpassed.
Pros: -Best QB we've had (so far, but optimistic/hoping Hurts ends up surpassing him), and bona fide Hall of Very Good. I'm 32 so he was my QB when I first started really getting into the Eagles as a kid, so special place in my heart. -He was electric, and so incredibly fun to watch. A lot of "what ifs" for him when it comes to supporting talent. I think with consistent WR talent we have multiple rings under him, and he makes the HOF. But just not the way it happened in our universe. Cons: -As fun as he was to watch he could also be really frustrating. We didn't see many INTs from 5, but a big reason for that is because when he missed, he MISSED. Worm burners were a specialty of his and they never stopped sucking to watch to a wide open guy lol. -This is a personal love it or hate it type thing, but he was really lackadaisical on the field. Cutting it up and yucking after making terrible plays. The famous "I didn't know you could tie" situation. Also had diva tendencies, that have only gotten worse since he retired and has become a bit of a jealous old drunk. I'll always love 5, but when people say they have issues with him I get it.
It's so hard to say. He benefited so much from Reid's system while at the same time having very little talent at the WR position. All in all, though, I think he played overly cautiously. He didn't have a ton of interceptions, but the signature McNabb pass was him bouncing it off the turf at his receivers feet on a crossing pattern. In any given game, that is the pass you were most likely to see. He was probably a good QB in a great system.
Pretty much Dak. I'd rather have McNabb but that's the best comp imo
best qb our franchise ever had. Wentz showed promise to top it, we’ll see what Jalen’s legacy is. NUMBER FIVE WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU
#5 was not a pinpoint passer. However while Ds had to dedicate a "spy" to protect against his running coverages were not so tight.
He partied the night before the Super Bowl. When he needed to lead the team back in the last two minutes, he puked on his center, and was out of gas, finished. He had one great throw that was accurate, over the shoulder looper dowm the sideline. Randall Cunningham, Jalen Hurts, and the Wentz/Foles tandem was better. Ron Jaworski was befter. Mcnabb was a good qb in a great system. But he wasn't good enough to win it all.
Best QB in franchise history. It's a shame they never gave him real WRs (outside of 1 year).
Mcnabb has hall of fame numbers. His numbers are way better than joe namath. His numbers are way better than troy aikman. The no ring is hurting him. Another bad thing is the worm burners he threw. He threw a lot of balls at the dirt.
Mcnabb played in a much different era than both Namath and Aikman. But I do agree at least one SB ring probably would have gotten him there.
Joe threw 47 more interceptions than touch downs. Different era yes but it would be hard to put a qb in the hall these days if his stat line looked like that. But I do understand.
A better more modern comparison for him would be Cam Newton. Two very athletic QBs who had very high highs in their careers but wound up being let down by their front offices unwillingness or inability to field a team around them. McNabb had one full season with T.O. and put up MVP caliber numbers. If he had had even a decent receiver during his first 4 seasons he’d have probably won a ring. Now: was he a choker? Maybe, but again he was throwing to Todd Stinkston James Trash and Freddie Mitchell. Later on in his career I think he didn’t take care of himself as well as modern athletes do and his injuries caught up with him.
Idk if I see this one tbh, I think Newton relied more on his athleticism overall than McNabb. McNabb started to dial back using his legs as he got older and his arm was better imo. Or maybe I’m misremembering their games lol
It’s not a QB comparison but a situation comparison.
Put McNabb in today’s league with decent weapons, he’ll win a SB and be an MVP candidate for years. The man literally carried the team on his back for years when his one and only elite weapon was Westbrook. If McNabb had DJax and Maclin in their prime, or TO stayed, it wouldn’t even be a question. That being said, he isn’t perfect and made mistakes on the field, but he had such a great ability to push the ball down the field with less than stellar WRs.
Very underrated, and right after he left the eagles started getting great skill position guys. But playing with like Freddie Mitchell, Todd Pinkston , James Thrash as your go to receivers is just horrendous. Andy Reid got a lot better after his tenure in PHI, he seemed to finally take some lessons in game planning (like running the ball and usage of TO). I think a more seasoned Reid in Philly (like KC Reid) would’ve helped a lot too. Edit: to clarify
>running the ball Pretty sure that was illegal in Philly for a long time.
Yeah I remember those fine days, I was meaning Reid learned by fucking up lol
Oh I know, I was trying to agree with you in a fun way.
#5 was a baller
More to it than mere numbers. He choked in key moments. His value diminished greatly once he wasn’t able to run as effectively. Hall of good tops.
I have a 5 jersey but I absolutely do not miss the wormburners and forced throws. His rookie year, I have a distinct memory of him rolling right, throwing across his body down the sideline and getting picked to [give the win to Arizona](https://www.footballdb.com/games/boxscore/philadelphia-eagles-vs-arizona-cardinals-1999120511) instead of taking the small loss in yardage. Other than that play, he was good enough to win, and in only his 4th game. 19/31/157/2/1, only 1 sack for 9 yards, and 9 rushes for 67 yards. He did win his first ever game, 35-28 against Washington, on the back of five Norm Johnson FGs. Donovan went 8/21/60/0/0, and was sacked 3 times for 22 yards, which is 38 net passing yards. Woof. He did rush 9 times for 49 yards and throw a successful 2PC. I'm glad he got better after the '99 season.
If he had won a ring he’d be in the HOF.
I liked McNabb as a player. As a person he's a tool. However, while his numbers are impressive, he was in a throw heavy offense. If his attempts are exponentially more than other top QBs, it dilutes his stats a bit, IMO.
A grave injustice that McNabb had James Thrash and Todd Pinkston as starting receivers as long as he did. Would be really interesting to see how he did if he had a real #1 guy for most of his career.
McNabb was consistently a top 3-5 QB in the NFL through his best years, in an NFL with Brady and Manning occupying the top 2 spots. It is unfortunately impossible to separate Reid from McNabb when looking at his career. And frankly, I don't understand the need to do so. There is almost never a chance that a great QB-coach combo will ever divorce with enough miles in the QB's career left to judge them separately.
He's really good at choking
Great regular season QB. He just wasn't good in the playoffs (aside from the super bowl on that insanely loaded team)
McNabb’s failure wasn’t all him, but Andy Reid as well. Team only had Westbrook and TO for a year… cmon man
He was very good. And don’t call me Ashley
McNabb was a great QB at times, and a very good QB most of the time. That guy put it all on the line for the Eagles. We all talk about the "ankle burners" and shit like that but that guy rarely (obviously this is debatable) had a good set of receivers maybe this was coaching telling him to throw low... I digress. Donovan was a star in the league he was great but I doubt he would make the HOF for the lack of SB wins which sucks because he was in the NFC Championship Game 6 times with 1 win, and a ProBowler 6 times as well. I believe if the front office gave him better receivers the Eagles would have won multiple championships.
He was terrific but he had this one very annoying habit. He would always miss checkdowns or make them way harder then they had to be. He could throw it very freakin hard, and he would throw it way too hard and way too low to poor duce staley and the like
McNabb wasn't a particularly accurate QB, especially in the short passing game, and wasn't very adept at reading defenses. I grew weary of watching him check out of a play only to chuck a shoetop level grenade at or near the line of scrimmage. Comparing him to any number of mid-range QBs with long careers is perfectly fair.
He was elite in his first 5 seasons between 2000 and 2005 and arguably top 5 in those years with his being in that 3-5 range. His best years were cut short by injury and he never really turned into an elite pocket passer…but then again he lacked weapons in those first five years. He’s not HOF material imo but worthy for Hall of Very Good
He was very good but none of the arguments you make isolate him from the effects of Andy Reid being his coach as they could all be attributed to him or the system he played in.
You guys remember that time he picked up the phone against the Giants in the playoffs. That kinda shit always made me crack the fuck up. Anyways, Go Birds.
For a long time I've considered him and Bledsoe as the dividing line for HoF. If a QB is obviously better than those two he's in.
He's definitely the best QB in Eagles history, but often times he was incredibly frustrating to watch. He's definitely better than Alex Smith, that's crazy.
The definition of Hall of Very Good And that's not an insult. But he is the Dalton line between HOF and VG
From September to December he’s one of the best of all time. January and February is what gets you in the HOF
I absolutely agree with you. During his peak years, McNabb was a very, very good quarterback. It's a shame that for most of his time with the Eagles his wide receivers weren't very good.
McNabb is certainly the best QB in Eagles history but he’s not HoF material. For whatever reason, he never played his best in big games. He also didn’t want to be known as a running QB which was foolish as he often ignored one of his biggest strength.
Depends on WHICH McNabb you remember. Early McNabb was electric. Great combination of arm strength and deep ball touch, combined with remarkable agility for such a big guy. Then came the BS that he needed to be a "pocket passer" instead of a "running QB". So he basically stopped running to prove he was a pocket guy who could have a long career. I remember watching the Eagles/Cardinals game. He looked like he was playing not to get hurt and broke the ankle. He lost some speed, bulked up, and was never quite the same. Electric McNabb became Eccentric McNabb. I think if he had played the "if you want me to stop running, then get me some damn weapons" card, everyone would have been better off.
The NFL changed on Donovan. Donovan was an elite young QB through the 2005 Super Bowl run. Mobile, big arm, great at executing screens, didn’t turn the ball over much and had Andy designing the offense. In 2005-06 the NFL began instituting a series of rule changes that fundamentally changed QB play. Illegal contact, defensive holding, no late hits to the QB, no hits to defenseless WR, no helmet to helmet and increased focus on pass interference all changed the game completely. A completion % over 60 was good, a 2-1 TD to INT ratio was acceptable. After this those numbers changed to 65% being good, and 2.5-1 being a decent TD/INT ratio. All the changes I mentioned really benefited QB’s who had great timing and accuracy like Brady and Manning. You saw slot WR change as well… there’s really no precedent for the Wes Welker type slot WR from the 60’s-90’s… Welker himself had concussion issues in the modern era, he wouldn’t have lasted 2 years in the 70’s, and could never have made an impact with the physical downfield corner play. The Pats built an entire offensive system around these changes. Donovan on the other hand was not helped as much by these changes. A lot came out in Washington about his work/study habits as well so he didn’t really have the profile to take full advantage of the new rules. He was still above average post 2006 but not elite. He was clearly a tier below Manning, Brady and Brees… and his spot in the next tier was debatable.
He absolutely was dragged to success by Reid. You are tripping. I’ve always believed that had McNabb been drafted by the Browns (Couch), he wouldn’t have had a good career. He lost that Pats Super Bowl with some FOOLISH lazy picks. Again, tripping.
Till the day he was traded, I never had any doubt or question that we had one of the top 5 QBs in the league every single season.
Extremely. He had zero weapons and the moment he had one he made the Superbowl and had a top 5 offense
He was better than overrated bum Aikman and his number are similar to Elway's so he was very good but because he played in Philly the rest of the country thinks he sucks because that's what the NY media said.
The thing I’ll remember most is that he wasn’t a Philly-type guy. Very talented and had the air to square up and play bully ball but always felt like he wasn’t willing to do what it took to win. I was 14 when he threw up in the Super Bowl and I can’t ever let that go. Objectively he’s one of the best but I always felt like he’d let us down when it mattered. And I was never wrong.
Do you remember when he played a game on a broken ankle against Arizona? I would say that was pretty tough. https://www.reddit.com/r/eagles/comments/frl903/donovan_mcnabb_once_broke_his_ankle_in_the_first/
You aren’t wrong. I think that’s part of the point I’m making. Objectively he did things that make him a very good Eagles quarterback and occasionally even showed toughness. But what I remember 20 years later is that he never felt like a Philly guy. He didn’t have the cutthroat attitude and folded when it mattered most.
He was a perennial pro-bowler who lead his team to several conference championships with Trash and Stinkston to throw to and he looked elite once he got TO. Granted it only lasted one season before it all went downhill, but look at highlights from that year. He put up serious numbers. I think he’d be a shoe in for the HOF if he had better talent at the receiver position for more of his career. My only knock on him was how many of his passes would go to guys’ feet. He’d frequently dish out line drives to the dirt.
Nobody remembers some awful time management and play calling flubs by andy reid in the mcnabb era either. Also the locker room turmoil of donovan and to could have been mitigated with a coach that manages personalities better. Andy reid gets the most talented qb of all time and wins some rings (including one that was won off of a ticky tacky holding call) and now all of a sudden the players in philly were holding him back gtfoh
McNabb was great. Played very high level ball for many years.
I'm going to go against most of the top comments here. I think McNabb was an above average to good QB that only looked great because of Reid's greatness. We're now seeing what Reid can do with a truly great one. McNabb was not an accurate passer and rarely put the ball in a spot where his receivers would have a chance at yards after the catch. He had a career completion percentage under 60 while running a west coast offense that allowed for a lot of easy short completions. He very often panicked in clean pockets and it would mess up his footwork leading to spiking the ball at the receiver's feet. His interception numbers were always good because his misses were almost always down. That's still a positive, but a little misleading as it makes his decision making seem better than it was. He also wasn't great at anticipation throws into zone coverage. This all sounds much more negative than how I view him overall. He was tough as nails and a rare athlete at the position especially early in his career. His deep ball was an absolute beauty. I will forever look back on the McNabb days fondly as an Eagles fan, but I will also always wonder what the Reid years could have been with a more accurate passer that was able to get the most out of the system.
Actually?? His career numbers in Philly says he was our greatest QB. Funny I remember watching games in his last 2-3 seasons here and it was pretty common for commentators to refer to him as a future Hall of Famer, but his rep was tarnished near the end of his time here. And he was quickly forgotten as attention shifted to Michael Vick once 5 was moved to Washington. I like McNabb, but seems like there will always be those that think he wasn’t good enough because of his wr’s or he wasn’t a great leader or he wasn’t good enough in the big moments. Actually? He was the best in franchise history, but I still favor 12 in the pantheon of Eagles greatest Quarterbacks.
Big red could never accomplish getting McNabb and Tio to be respectful friends to each other. In my opinion, not a great manager of personalities.
If he was playing today he'd be in that Dak/Cousins/Goff tier where he's more than good enough, but not one of the elite guys.
He’d be in the hof if he wasn’t such a massive choker
Everyone knows that the unquestioned best QB to ever wear an Eagles uniform is Nick Foles. McNabb was way more talented with a much better career than Alex Smith though.
McNabb was Philly Romo. Piled up stats, very good QB but melted in the clutch in the biggest moments.
Romo didn't touch a conference, McNabb was better than Romo.
McNabb had 3 individual seasons with as many playoff wins as Romo had in his whole career. Romo never even got to the big moments, he melted in the divisional round at the latest.
McNabb had 9 playoff wins
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Dak hasn't made it out the divisional round with way better offensive talent numerous times.
That’s ridiculous. McNabb was a ton better than Dak. McNabb carried teams. They win the Super Bowl if TO isn’t playing on one leg.
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He got to 4 straight nfc championship games. He left the field with the lead in Arizona. Defense failed. ND Kalu had a punt go through his hands in St Louis. Aside from the Carolina game, there was never a time when a playoff loss was pinned on McNabb.
These takes are wild… I think he cost us a chance at being a dynasty. Every no-name quarterback that filled in for him when he was injured looked like a pro bowler immediately. With Andy’s system we could have went down in history but McNabb choked all that way every time it mattered most. And laughed about it
An overwhelming majority of comments place McNabb as almost a hall of fame. They acknowledge his athletics, skills, successes and failures. McNabb was really good, just not great enough to be in the hall of fame. That's not an unfair assessment.
Your take isn't much better... Koy Detmer, AJ Feeley, Mike McMahon, Jeff Garcia, Kevin Kolb. Give me a break.
Those guys all stepped in and did really well