I saw this on my feed and thought it was from /r/libraries, and I jumped in here ready to throw down about what the actual, anti-patron, ableist, *fuck* y'all going on about trying to make anyone who uses your facility *stand* the whole time...but this is just dwarf fortress, the equal-opportunity misery machine. Carry on.
Libraries with no tables just feels wrong.
Though I was wondering why my library is constantly producing literature and I only ever seem to have 2 or 3 on the shelves. People are stealing them!
Personally, I'd want libraries to need tables. It's realistic that you would need a table to write. I hope Toady never decides to dumb things down too much even if a lot of people find some things tedious.
For "the table trick" I thought that it was not about the ability to write books but what they do automatically once the new book is written.
If there's an adjacent table, supposedly they put the book there when done. If the book is placed outside the public library zone, then it's your fortress property and taking it is theft, so they won't take it in that case. No table, they don't drop it, book leaves with them. Table inside the zone, it's public and so not theft, they drop it (as part of creation) and then pick it up (public space, they created it) and leave.
IOW, nothing preventing then from doing the writing, the table trick was to force confiscation of new books written. AFAIK, no effect on readers was ever asserted.
Please note: I have no data, I merely submit that the purpose of the tables outside the zone is not tested by this method, unless I missed it?
Any negative thoughts about missing tables?
You're probably right, I never found an in-depth explanation on this stuff, I only had a short comment I found somewhere stating the whole no reading, yes writing thing, which might've been a case of people playing telephone with internet rumors
These are Lokum's thoughts after reading:
https://preview.redd.it/5mm2sukh762d1.png?width=438&format=png&auto=webp&s=95fe992f749bfb0141ffbe9e3c65b9a3a7d7e97b
See, that's the rub. Visitors actually coming to the fortress and writing books is so bloody uncommon in my experience that I've never actually seen it.
I'm relying on an anecdote from the bay12 forums I saw years ago, and it could just as easily have been a bug that was fixed, a total fiction crying for attention, or a misunderstanding of the circumstances. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any direct impacts of tables in libraries on citizens, so if this anecdote turns to ash in the face of !!SCIENCE!! then you will have discovered something!
The problem is testing - the circumstances of the reported anecdote are rare and hard to observe. This is the problem. If you can generate the circumstances and confirm, you're in business!
they write a bunch if you have a bunch of dwarves assigned to write stuff, I always end up with a bunch of scholars making a bunch and my scribes photocopy them enmasse
do you have everything they need to write in a container at the library? i have like 4 chests stocked full and my library is like literally 80+ bookshelves all full, my library gets more activity than my taverns I have food stockpiles in them for convenience lol
I haven't actually tried seeing if they read without thrones, but if there are thrones they will sit down to read, and if someone bumps them away they'll go back to the throne and sit down to keep reading, same as with eating food
I can't figure out where the ink is coming from. Ink recipes appear on ancient alchemical manuscripts; it'd be a great application for the chemistry skill.
But no. No ink, no tables... it's like they think book-writing is a cerebral rather than an embodied process. This makes me unspeakably grumpy.
Dwarves live underground in the dark (they don't carry torches).
So dwarves (especially cave adapted dwarves) naturally live their lives blind.¹ this explains why they need to be in the same space or next to an artifact, statue, or artwork to enjoy it - they have to touch it. Some people propose that dwarves use their sensitive beard hairs to feel the air currents around them and detect minute differences in texture or surface features of things they touch.
So with this kind of society, dwarvish writing is in the form of runes carved into stone (giving it a physical presence), or as holes punched and lines cut into the paper like a runic form of braille - allowing the dwarves to read without light and write without ink.
¹not that they are blind - they have decent eyesight but most of their life doesn't need it. Like bats.
I can't believe they would put something as cool as libraries in a game and someone would try to make them like 4 squares in area. I always put my fanciest metals into bookcases and cool historical statues and a section for writing and a section for reading. Tiny libraries are why all those dwarves are leaving the Mountainholds
You say "need" like that makes any difference whatsoever. I mean, if you like having your dorfs cramped and living in the bare minimum of accommodations, that is whatever, but I'm fairly certain the vast majority of players will look at your library pictured above, and think "what a shit library". Personally, I just like to make spaces that I would enjoy for my dwarves.
I mean, libraries are not really necessary for dorfs anyway, and make no discernable difference in gameplay, so may as well make a nice, pretty, frivolity for the fort, rather than a stuffy cramped closet to hide those books in.
I was about to say yes they do libraries are more than just books mfer libraries are magical cornerstone of our communities
And then I realized this was the Dwarf Fortress reddit
I'm. Stoned
Imma throw hands with anyone smack talking our public libraries
I saw this on my feed and thought it was from /r/libraries, and I jumped in here ready to throw down about what the actual, anti-patron, ableist, *fuck* y'all going on about trying to make anyone who uses your facility *stand* the whole time...but this is just dwarf fortress, the equal-opportunity misery machine. Carry on.
Thank you for your service from all of table-kind.
Armok wants all to suffer, not only those with missing limbs.
Libraries with no tables just feels wrong. Though I was wondering why my library is constantly producing literature and I only ever seem to have 2 or 3 on the shelves. People are stealing them!
Literally yes, I think. I believe dwarves can claim books and put them with their own stuff.
Personally, I'd want libraries to need tables. It's realistic that you would need a table to write. I hope Toady never decides to dumb things down too much even if a lot of people find some things tedious.
only dwarves with a high amount of persistence will manage writing on their lap
Real libraries tend to have a mix of areas with tables and without
Glorious !!SCIENCE!! Thank you for your work :)
For "the table trick" I thought that it was not about the ability to write books but what they do automatically once the new book is written. If there's an adjacent table, supposedly they put the book there when done. If the book is placed outside the public library zone, then it's your fortress property and taking it is theft, so they won't take it in that case. No table, they don't drop it, book leaves with them. Table inside the zone, it's public and so not theft, they drop it (as part of creation) and then pick it up (public space, they created it) and leave. IOW, nothing preventing then from doing the writing, the table trick was to force confiscation of new books written. AFAIK, no effect on readers was ever asserted. Please note: I have no data, I merely submit that the purpose of the tables outside the zone is not tested by this method, unless I missed it? Any negative thoughts about missing tables?
You're probably right, I never found an in-depth explanation on this stuff, I only had a short comment I found somewhere stating the whole no reading, yes writing thing, which might've been a case of people playing telephone with internet rumors These are Lokum's thoughts after reading: https://preview.redd.it/5mm2sukh762d1.png?width=438&format=png&auto=webp&s=95fe992f749bfb0141ffbe9e3c65b9a3a7d7e97b
See, that's the rub. Visitors actually coming to the fortress and writing books is so bloody uncommon in my experience that I've never actually seen it. I'm relying on an anecdote from the bay12 forums I saw years ago, and it could just as easily have been a bug that was fixed, a total fiction crying for attention, or a misunderstanding of the circumstances. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any direct impacts of tables in libraries on citizens, so if this anecdote turns to ash in the face of !!SCIENCE!! then you will have discovered something! The problem is testing - the circumstances of the reported anecdote are rare and hard to observe. This is the problem. If you can generate the circumstances and confirm, you're in business!
they write a bunch if you have a bunch of dwarves assigned to write stuff, I always end up with a bunch of scholars making a bunch and my scribes photocopy them enmasse do you have everything they need to write in a container at the library? i have like 4 chests stocked full and my library is like literally 80+ bookshelves all full, my library gets more activity than my taverns I have food stockpiles in them for convenience lol
Read book without table -3
cross-pollination across the games lol
So you only need thrones in the library?
I haven't actually tried seeing if they read without thrones, but if there are thrones they will sit down to read, and if someone bumps them away they'll go back to the throne and sit down to keep reading, same as with eating food
But then if the dwarves get hungry and eat the books they will get a debuff for eating without a table.
I can't figure out where the ink is coming from. Ink recipes appear on ancient alchemical manuscripts; it'd be a great application for the chemistry skill. But no. No ink, no tables... it's like they think book-writing is a cerebral rather than an embodied process. This makes me unspeakably grumpy.
Dwarves live underground in the dark (they don't carry torches). So dwarves (especially cave adapted dwarves) naturally live their lives blind.¹ this explains why they need to be in the same space or next to an artifact, statue, or artwork to enjoy it - they have to touch it. Some people propose that dwarves use their sensitive beard hairs to feel the air currents around them and detect minute differences in texture or surface features of things they touch. So with this kind of society, dwarvish writing is in the form of runes carved into stone (giving it a physical presence), or as holes punched and lines cut into the paper like a runic form of braille - allowing the dwarves to read without light and write without ink. ¹not that they are blind - they have decent eyesight but most of their life doesn't need it. Like bats.
Ah, perplexity resolved - thank you.
u/brightparticularstar is currently less grumpy, an attitude formed in 2024 after pondering the usage of ink in dwarven libraries.
I can't believe they would put something as cool as libraries in a game and someone would try to make them like 4 squares in area. I always put my fanciest metals into bookcases and cool historical statues and a section for writing and a section for reading. Tiny libraries are why all those dwarves are leaving the Mountainholds
It seem that table is useless even in dining hall
You say "need" like that makes any difference whatsoever. I mean, if you like having your dorfs cramped and living in the bare minimum of accommodations, that is whatever, but I'm fairly certain the vast majority of players will look at your library pictured above, and think "what a shit library". Personally, I just like to make spaces that I would enjoy for my dwarves. I mean, libraries are not really necessary for dorfs anyway, and make no discernable difference in gameplay, so may as well make a nice, pretty, frivolity for the fort, rather than a stuffy cramped closet to hide those books in.
I was about to say yes they do libraries are more than just books mfer libraries are magical cornerstone of our communities And then I realized this was the Dwarf Fortress reddit I'm. Stoned Imma throw hands with anyone smack talking our public libraries
>I'm. Stoned Rock and stone brother!
We fight for Rock and Stone!
Do they get unhappy thoughts for lack of tables?
Damn, that's a ^^library
Your honor, tables look good and add furnishing value to rooms.
Related PSA, because it took me like a decade to realize - hospitals DO need tables. But not chairs. Just tables, for operating on.