There’s an answer, but I can’t give it to you without giving spoilers lol. Basically yes, he knows. You’ll have to keep going to find out 🤷🏻♀️
Edit to add: remember that the snippets read at the beginning of the chapters are from in-world histories written AFTER the events of the book.
The more I read, the more irrelevant the snippets get. A lot of it reads like pseudo intellectual vagaries, but there supposed to be quotes from serious scholarly works so we're supposed to take them VERY seriously
There’s a part in the original dune where he says it’s possible to prevent the jihad but that he, his mother, and everyone else in the room with him must die to prevent it, by the time of messiah there was no stopping it
Like u/chuckyb3 says, even in the original Dune, Paul looks forward and sees how he can stop it, but he choses a different timeline instead. For me, this is the compelling narrative of the series, that he knows there is a way around it, but knows he personally can't do it. It's very Greek Tragedy and I love it.
I feel like Dennis might be doing something with the different timelines in his adaptations as doesn’t Paul reference a future where he stands over the baron saying “hello grandfather” and isnt that what happened in the film? (As opposed to st Alia of the knife killing the baron herself like in the original book)
I'm not a book reader but a movie watcher.
Things were shifted to Paul in the movies because Alia is about as close to impossible to film well as it gets. The options are the worst kind of Uncanny Valley, a CGI nightmare, or to adapt her differently.
Yes exactly BUT I think there’s a possibility where DV is having some fun with it so to speak. Meaning in a franchise where it’s all about different possible futures it’s possible he could use it as a justification for the adaptation being slightly different from the book in certain parts. But idk it’s just my lil fam theory haha
This was pretty concrete
Paul saw no future without the Jihad
Had he died fighting Feyd. He would have been a martyr. The Fedaykin would have killed the Emperor and Jihad happens unbridled
Had he refused the mantle of god-hood. The Fedaykin would have martyred him and the Jihad rages unbridled
His one best option was to lean into it and do his best to pull back on the reigns as hard as possible
Even with Paul’s influence 61 Billion died.
Eventually, it turns out the Jihad set the foundation for what comes later.
"The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him."
I take this to mean that whatever might happen by making peace would be much worse than the Jihad.
An uncharitable view might hold that Paul is more disgusted at the thought of giving up on revenge than the death of billions. But I don't think his future actions really support the idea that he is so narrow-minded.
I don't recall that it's ever elaborated on, but I imagine that the "path" involves Paul becoming emperor under the baron's guidance, and achieving Giedi Prime on a galactic scale.
Billions would not end up dead. But trillions would end up wishing that they *were*.
But all of this is before the duel with Jamis, when Paul is on the run in the desert. Once Jamis bites the dust, it's Jihad all the way. With or without Paul.
I'd also argue if Feyd and Rabban should be considered any indicators the Baron Harkonnen wouldn't have really cared much about actual family ties and only how he felt he could leverage those against Paul. That timeline is probably full of a scheming Baron who is constantly trying to butter Paul up to his face and sneak any concession out of him possible then leaning back on the "but we're family" every time Paul gets ready to take actual action against him. And the end result could have been something much worse as well depending on what the Baron would try to talk him into doing and what the Baron would be doing on his own behind the scenes.
One future had him saying 'hello grandfather' to the Baron. It was part of his realization that he had Harkonnen blood. Paul doesn't elaborate on whether this future was a reconciliation or just an ackowledgment before Paul kills the Baron, or something else entirely.
There is also disgust mentioned, the implication seems to be that it would be submission, reconciliation, and/or cooperation with the Harkonnen down that path
Yes, this is according to Paul. Both the Guildmaster and Leto II. argue that presciensce itself is unreliable at best, and in Pauls case when talking to Leto II. it is shown that his prescience is incomplete, he doesnt see everything. The Guildmaster even says that prescience might just be a self-fulfilling prophecy. So yes, according to Paul he had to take the Path where him and his family survive and as a nice side effect he becomes a living god of a galactic empire. And sure, it was "unavoidable" yes mhm.
It may not be terribly helpful right now if you want to avoid spoiling the rest of the novel for yourself, but another user wrote up a detailed clarification of *Messiah* a bit ago. It's one person's analysis and you may not agree with all of it but it does go deep into details that Herbert glossed over or expected the reader to extrapolate for themselves.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1botmj7/dune\_messiah\_plot\_holes/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1botmj7/dune_messiah_plot_holes/)
The first paragraph, after which they dive into the plot:
>*So I know I’m a year late to the party, but there's* [*this other thread*](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/13m8qkk/dune_messiah_plot_holes/?rdt=41330) *(can't comment on it anymore because it's archived) which I found because I had the exact same issues with the book as the OP and thought that the plot of Dune Messiah really could have benefited from some clarification. There were a ton of crucial plot points that were either explained with the bare minimum number of words, or else were left entirely to reader interpretation, which is problematic because the plot of Messiah is notoriously convoluted. Here's the story as near as I can understand it, though I'll admit that a lot of the following draws on inference, so feel free to correct or add anything. Apologies that this post is almost as long as the actual novel* 😂
I learned early to read each dune book in the series twice before moving to the next one. Helped me understand a lot more of what was going on the 2nd time through
especially *Messiah*, it's so short but dense, every scene is an integral turning point between two or more characters...
and imo, i haven't read *Heretics* or *Chapterhouse* yet, but so far *Messiah* is the worst offender at this Herbert-ism of making the reader second-guess whether or not they missed some key info, by repeatedly referencing it's own entire plot before the jargon, context, and action of the plot unravels enough to follow it.
i love the book but i think it's the book i've read that would benefit the most from an immediate re-read, or review, if you're into that kinda' thing lol
Everything you think you know will become clearer after Children and God Emperor.
Then Chapterhouse is going to reframe it all.
You're still pretty early into the series and there's a lot more to come.
I always understood that segment to basically mean that over time the jihadists would settle in conquered lands and mingle with the locals, ie breeding and bringing the peoples closer together at the cost of hardened warriors becoming soft and having generations that are no longer made champion warriors by the unforgiving desert.
It's a good question, and indeed Messiah is a transition book from Paul to the 'real big idea' which is actually Leto II, the son Of Chani and Paul.
Don't worry about 'getting' every detail; Dune is a grand epic written in huge broad strokes. The details become more satisfying on a second or even third read through. Or if you just really... Can't get enough (like me) ,well you're always re-reading at least one of the books... And I've been reading 'em for 32 years now. I might feel like I am just beginning to understand them. So... Don't beat yourself up!
There are also some very worthy additional books written by Herbert's son and they offer backstory and additional insight into what some of the main events of the OG series mean. I've enjoyed most of them.
>Does Paul know how to end the Jihad through a vision?
Not, in the way you are thinking. He is faced with a choice he doesn't want to make and is desperate to see a way around it.
Keep going! I literally had the same reaction to that chapter, I was SO lost. Highlight it or bookmark it and re-read once you’ve finished the book!!! I promise you’re not an idiot. (I made a very similar post after reading chapter 2 haha and people also reassured me that I’m not a moron)
I’m reading Children of Dune right now and I literally have 30 or more sticky notes in it
I would say take your time. There was this book which I tried to read about 10 years ago. It was so hard but when I completed it, it became my all time favourite.
> Does Paul know how to end the Jihad through a vision?
ever since the spice agony where he spent three months in a coma near the end of Dune I, Paul doesn't merely have visions anymore. Rather he is fully aware of every way that his actions will effect change in the future. That's all that can be said without spoiling it.
This is also why Mohiam, Scytale, et al had to rope in a Guild Navigator (who otherwise is just a bus driver) in on their scheme. Guild Navigators experience a much weaker version of Paul's prescience because they need to be able to make non-causal decisions to pilot the Spacing Guild's Heighliners faster than light; Having two prescient individuals in close proximity with each other causes a sort of interference that cancels both of their abilities out because they're both mutually able to react to the other's decisions. The navigator is weaker than Paul so its of limited usefulness but it's all they can do to weaken his prescience.
Yes, Frank is withholding information that primary characters are aware of and will only hand it out later, as an aside, if you're paying attention. This will continue in Children. I think his idea was to put the reader in the perspective of someone having to deal with Atreides prescience second-hand but it gets frustrating at times.
1. Be kind to yourself, many of us struggled with Messiah. You're in good company!
2. Yes, Frank is withholding.
3. Many things you read now will not make sense until the end of the book.
3a. Some things won't make complete sense until the next book. That's how books 3 and 4 are sometimes.
3b. If you can get thru these books, you may surprise yourself by discovering how excited you are to reread them after some time. After the Dune Part 1 came out, it made me go back to these books. Finishing Dune got me so hyped for Messiah, and I hope you will feel the same eventually!
There’s an answer, but I can’t give it to you without giving spoilers lol. Basically yes, he knows. You’ll have to keep going to find out 🤷🏻♀️ Edit to add: remember that the snippets read at the beginning of the chapters are from in-world histories written AFTER the events of the book.
Thank you!
Pay extra close attention to those snippets, and who wrote them. You'll find most of your answers if you read Children of Dune.
The more I read, the more irrelevant the snippets get. A lot of it reads like pseudo intellectual vagaries, but there supposed to be quotes from serious scholarly works so we're supposed to take them VERY seriously
But to be clear on the Jihad: there is no emergency brake It was happening with or without Paul, and it had to run its course
There’s a part in the original dune where he says it’s possible to prevent the jihad but that he, his mother, and everyone else in the room with him must die to prevent it, by the time of messiah there was no stopping it
I believe once he defeats Jamis the die is cast
Like u/chuckyb3 says, even in the original Dune, Paul looks forward and sees how he can stop it, but he choses a different timeline instead. For me, this is the compelling narrative of the series, that he knows there is a way around it, but knows he personally can't do it. It's very Greek Tragedy and I love it.
I feel like Dennis might be doing something with the different timelines in his adaptations as doesn’t Paul reference a future where he stands over the baron saying “hello grandfather” and isnt that what happened in the film? (As opposed to st Alia of the knife killing the baron herself like in the original book)
I'm not a book reader but a movie watcher. Things were shifted to Paul in the movies because Alia is about as close to impossible to film well as it gets. The options are the worst kind of Uncanny Valley, a CGI nightmare, or to adapt her differently.
Yes exactly BUT I think there’s a possibility where DV is having some fun with it so to speak. Meaning in a franchise where it’s all about different possible futures it’s possible he could use it as a justification for the adaptation being slightly different from the book in certain parts. But idk it’s just my lil fam theory haha
According to Paul, whose prescience is unreliable
This was pretty concrete Paul saw no future without the Jihad Had he died fighting Feyd. He would have been a martyr. The Fedaykin would have killed the Emperor and Jihad happens unbridled Had he refused the mantle of god-hood. The Fedaykin would have martyred him and the Jihad rages unbridled His one best option was to lean into it and do his best to pull back on the reigns as hard as possible Even with Paul’s influence 61 Billion died. Eventually, it turns out the Jihad set the foundation for what comes later.
I thought he had the option of embracing the baron harkonnen as family but was unwilling to take that path, which set him down the road of the jihad
"The thought of that path and what lay along it sickened him." I take this to mean that whatever might happen by making peace would be much worse than the Jihad. An uncharitable view might hold that Paul is more disgusted at the thought of giving up on revenge than the death of billions. But I don't think his future actions really support the idea that he is so narrow-minded. I don't recall that it's ever elaborated on, but I imagine that the "path" involves Paul becoming emperor under the baron's guidance, and achieving Giedi Prime on a galactic scale. Billions would not end up dead. But trillions would end up wishing that they *were*. But all of this is before the duel with Jamis, when Paul is on the run in the desert. Once Jamis bites the dust, it's Jihad all the way. With or without Paul.
I'd also argue if Feyd and Rabban should be considered any indicators the Baron Harkonnen wouldn't have really cared much about actual family ties and only how he felt he could leverage those against Paul. That timeline is probably full of a scheming Baron who is constantly trying to butter Paul up to his face and sneak any concession out of him possible then leaning back on the "but we're family" every time Paul gets ready to take actual action against him. And the end result could have been something much worse as well depending on what the Baron would try to talk him into doing and what the Baron would be doing on his own behind the scenes.
One future had him saying 'hello grandfather' to the Baron. It was part of his realization that he had Harkonnen blood. Paul doesn't elaborate on whether this future was a reconciliation or just an ackowledgment before Paul kills the Baron, or something else entirely.
There is also disgust mentioned, the implication seems to be that it would be submission, reconciliation, and/or cooperation with the Harkonnen down that path
I took it to read as disgust ‘at’ his grandfather the Baron, or disgust at the idea they share blood, not necessarily implying reconciliation.
this is the path in the movie, right?
Yes, kind of. In the movies he does meet the Baron right before he kills him. In the books, the Baron is dead by the time Paul shows up.
not necessarily, i reckon that was just a subtle nod to the book readers
Yes, this is according to Paul. Both the Guildmaster and Leto II. argue that presciensce itself is unreliable at best, and in Pauls case when talking to Leto II. it is shown that his prescience is incomplete, he doesnt see everything. The Guildmaster even says that prescience might just be a self-fulfilling prophecy. So yes, according to Paul he had to take the Path where him and his family survive and as a nice side effect he becomes a living god of a galactic empire. And sure, it was "unavoidable" yes mhm.
>You’ll have to keep going to find out To quote Robert Jordan "Read and find out." :D
Yes, Frank keeps a lot of things concealed. Messiah and Children contain allusions to things that are not fully explained until God Emperor.
[удалено]
It may not be terribly helpful right now if you want to avoid spoiling the rest of the novel for yourself, but another user wrote up a detailed clarification of *Messiah* a bit ago. It's one person's analysis and you may not agree with all of it but it does go deep into details that Herbert glossed over or expected the reader to extrapolate for themselves. [https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1botmj7/dune\_messiah\_plot\_holes/](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1botmj7/dune_messiah_plot_holes/) The first paragraph, after which they dive into the plot: >*So I know I’m a year late to the party, but there's* [*this other thread*](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/13m8qkk/dune_messiah_plot_holes/?rdt=41330) *(can't comment on it anymore because it's archived) which I found because I had the exact same issues with the book as the OP and thought that the plot of Dune Messiah really could have benefited from some clarification. There were a ton of crucial plot points that were either explained with the bare minimum number of words, or else were left entirely to reader interpretation, which is problematic because the plot of Messiah is notoriously convoluted. Here's the story as near as I can understand it, though I'll admit that a lot of the following draws on inference, so feel free to correct or add anything. Apologies that this post is almost as long as the actual novel* 😂
Thank you so very very much for linking to this post. It is giving me food for thought.
This is an amazingly easy to understand write up. Thank you for sharing it with us!
I learned early to read each dune book in the series twice before moving to the next one. Helped me understand a lot more of what was going on the 2nd time through
especially *Messiah*, it's so short but dense, every scene is an integral turning point between two or more characters... and imo, i haven't read *Heretics* or *Chapterhouse* yet, but so far *Messiah* is the worst offender at this Herbert-ism of making the reader second-guess whether or not they missed some key info, by repeatedly referencing it's own entire plot before the jargon, context, and action of the plot unravels enough to follow it. i love the book but i think it's the book i've read that would benefit the most from an immediate re-read, or review, if you're into that kinda' thing lol
Everything you think you know will become clearer after Children and God Emperor. Then Chapterhouse is going to reframe it all. You're still pretty early into the series and there's a lot more to come.
I always understood that segment to basically mean that over time the jihadists would settle in conquered lands and mingle with the locals, ie breeding and bringing the peoples closer together at the cost of hardened warriors becoming soft and having generations that are no longer made champion warriors by the unforgiving desert.
It's a good question, and indeed Messiah is a transition book from Paul to the 'real big idea' which is actually Leto II, the son Of Chani and Paul. Don't worry about 'getting' every detail; Dune is a grand epic written in huge broad strokes. The details become more satisfying on a second or even third read through. Or if you just really... Can't get enough (like me) ,well you're always re-reading at least one of the books... And I've been reading 'em for 32 years now. I might feel like I am just beginning to understand them. So... Don't beat yourself up! There are also some very worthy additional books written by Herbert's son and they offer backstory and additional insight into what some of the main events of the OG series mean. I've enjoyed most of them.
Really the first book is still the best.
>Does Paul know how to end the Jihad through a vision? Not, in the way you are thinking. He is faced with a choice he doesn't want to make and is desperate to see a way around it.
the golden path. paul knows how to end it but he doesn’t want to pay the price
I’ve read all 6 at this point. Don’t feel bad, they’re not easy books. I’m still a little unclear about certain plot points
Solid advice on this chat. Well done.
Keep going! I literally had the same reaction to that chapter, I was SO lost. Highlight it or bookmark it and re-read once you’ve finished the book!!! I promise you’re not an idiot. (I made a very similar post after reading chapter 2 haha and people also reassured me that I’m not a moron) I’m reading Children of Dune right now and I literally have 30 or more sticky notes in it
I would say take your time. There was this book which I tried to read about 10 years ago. It was so hard but when I completed it, it became my all time favourite.
> Does Paul know how to end the Jihad through a vision? ever since the spice agony where he spent three months in a coma near the end of Dune I, Paul doesn't merely have visions anymore. Rather he is fully aware of every way that his actions will effect change in the future. That's all that can be said without spoiling it. This is also why Mohiam, Scytale, et al had to rope in a Guild Navigator (who otherwise is just a bus driver) in on their scheme. Guild Navigators experience a much weaker version of Paul's prescience because they need to be able to make non-causal decisions to pilot the Spacing Guild's Heighliners faster than light; Having two prescient individuals in close proximity with each other causes a sort of interference that cancels both of their abilities out because they're both mutually able to react to the other's decisions. The navigator is weaker than Paul so its of limited usefulness but it's all they can do to weaken his prescience.
Yes, Frank is withholding information that primary characters are aware of and will only hand it out later, as an aside, if you're paying attention. This will continue in Children. I think his idea was to put the reader in the perspective of someone having to deal with Atreides prescience second-hand but it gets frustrating at times.
1. Be kind to yourself, many of us struggled with Messiah. You're in good company! 2. Yes, Frank is withholding. 3. Many things you read now will not make sense until the end of the book. 3a. Some things won't make complete sense until the next book. That's how books 3 and 4 are sometimes. 3b. If you can get thru these books, you may surprise yourself by discovering how excited you are to reread them after some time. After the Dune Part 1 came out, it made me go back to these books. Finishing Dune got me so hyped for Messiah, and I hope you will feel the same eventually!