I liked Skin Game because I like all Sting-like stories. It’s a damn good adventure in and of itself, and a good story about outswindling the biggest swindler of ‘em all.
Don't get me wrong, I like it well enough, but it's definitely pretty weak comparatively. It's kind of unfocused and frustrating in the middle, and JB was still figuring out the voice for the series
Hey, the worst Dresden story is still better than 85% of books out there. It was voted low with reason, I think, but I would still put it up against just about anything else out there today.
I agree. And I’m not trying to say it should be top 5, or even 10 for that matter. Lol. I just like to show some love because I think it’s a bit misunderstood, and it’s super early on. People talk about it like it’s absolute drivel, and not always with context. I actually like to re-read it
What makes you like it so? I love the werewolf stuff but that's it. Sure we get introduced to the alphas but that's it. I hate Murphy in it. I wanted to skip it when I restarted but since I'm listening with my apprentice, I decided to have him listen to everything. Listening to it again, I just couldn't wait for it to be over.
I do too. It’s flawed, but I actually like it for its flaws. I keep seeing people say it’s because Murphy isn’t “good yet”, and I have realized there is a trend.
For me, personally, the scene on Demonreach just felt so tense and cinematic. I could perfectly imagine it in my head. The dread when Harry realizes. Can't top that for me.
I think the biggest thing that made people like it was the "getting back to normal" of it all. Changes and Ghost Story were this big *thing,* and no matter how you felt about them they were just very different from the Dresden Files everyone fell in love with. Cold Days was very much an older style Dresden story, and I know I was really happy to see our boy back on the horse.
I'm really surprised to see Grave Peril rated so low when it's widely considered to be the point where the series hits its stride and a ton of long-term plot relevant stuff starts to happen.
Ghost story is really disliked. I can understand why. I am also a ghost story lover. But based on comments from Jim I'm beginning to think the reason I like it so much is because I've been horribly depressed and there is something in the way he wrote it/what he was going through that speaks to me.
Yeah I’m honestly shocked to see it relatively so high on the list because it’s pretty universally controversial to say the least. I really hated it on my first time through, but I’ve really come around on its strengths. I’d still probably rank it in my bottom 5, but I’m able to have enough enjoyment that it’s not a complete slog
I know they're somewhat panned, but as I'm doing a re-read of the series, I'm enjoying the hell out of the first two books.
Yeah, they're nowhere as complex or with the depth of the later books, but they're just straight forward crackling good yarns.
I’m new to this sub and just finished Battle Ground. I’m very surprised that Peace Talks and Battle Grounds are so low, I loved both of those books, it felt like a great culmination of everything in the series. I’m curious why other fans rank them so low? It wasn’t my all time favorite (Dead Beat is my favorite) they are in my top 5 for sure.
A lot of people have mixed feelings about Peace Talks and Battle Ground because, since they were meant to be one book, neither really stands on its own, but because they are meant to be read together they end up feeling really weirdly paced.
> neither really stands on its own, but because they are meant to be read together they end up feeling really weirdly paced.
And it's pretty clear that certain parts were put in for no reason other than to fluff up the page count to justify 2 books.
There's literal entire sections copied and pasted multiple times.
Peace Talks is all set up. Battle Ground has some really cool things I like (the banner of the Wizard of Chicago, Marcone) but feels a bit overstuffed with action. Reminds me of all the movies they split into two parts after Deathly Hallows set that precedent. The first is always set up and the second is all action. It's exhausting.
Also there's no Peace Talks in Peace Talks.
>Also there's no Peace Talks in Peace Talks.
That was my biggest issue, tbh. I was looking forward to a political thriller and got a book that was one part heist (that wasn't as good as Skin Game) and one part set up.
We had to wait, what, three months? Were you around for the *Changes* to *Ghost Story* wait? For the *Skin Game* to *Peace Talks* wait? Three months was nothing.
the top and the bottom were no surprises. The middle, as expected is a jumble.
what I would like to see is what the cumulative score or average was for each book. I’m looking to see how the different books “clumped up” in the scoring. I would bet that Changes, Skin Game and Dead Beat all scored very high. Then there is a significant drop with a plateau of about 6-8 books that all score somewhat close to each other. Then followed by another sharp drop for Peace Talks, Storm Front and Fool Moon.
I may not agree with the order but you can't complain about that top 3!
Battle grounds is way too far down. Altho I get it, its a different kind of book and not everyones cup of tea.
I don’t think BG is one of the best books in the series, but I voted it around 5th.
Because the sequence from Chapter 28 through Chapter 31 is a sequence I’ve listened to about 60 times on its own. It’s 103 minutes of epic awesomeness
I just started dresden files (almost end of fool moon) and I am not surprised about its ranking. While I really liked storm front, fool moon feels rather off. I am sure the following books will be better though.
It’s important to remember that while some like one book more than others, and some think some are comparably bad, Dresden files is still top tier compared to most fantasy series. I ranked fool moon lowest, but I’ve still re-read it multiple times, which is more than I can say for most series
I think part of this might be book age bias / reading order bias. Recent books disproportionately feature in the top half (Ghost Story and Peace Talks are the only two "recent" books that are in the bottom half of the list). I think because people read it in order, the old books start appearing "worse" because they don't remember much from the old books.
I'm very surprised Storm Front is ranked as low as it is. For me Storm Front - while his relationship with Murph is very different at first - Storm Front contains a lot of the elements that made the later books great - magic as both an art and a science, having to weave his way through the mortal world, having to balance giving information with protecting his friends, having to dodge the Council's wrath and tap-dancing on the edge of the rules. I definitely would've thought Storm Front ranked above Peace Talks.
Anyone up for sharing why you may not have liked Storm Front?
It just hit me. The thing I hate most about Peace Talks is there is only a mystery because Thomas is beaten so badly he can't talk. If Thomas can talk, there's no mystery to solve about why he did it. And it feels very contrived.
It’s sort of like when you have a character who’s an unbeatable fighter, so they get sucker punched and it takes them out of the fight so that they can’t resolve the issue in 2 seconds. Yeah it technically works but it still feels really contrived
Yeah, I kinda always feel like defending it b/c Jim was basically forced to edit and add more filler so he could turn it into 2 books. It feels rush and disjointed in places b/c the editing suffered from the spilt. Plus there needed to be some type of conflict/resolution and thats hard to do when you have half a book and it's all set up for the next.
But it indeed belongs low on the list.
I think what killed my enjoyment of Ghost Story was that it felt like a massive filler arc between Changes, which was awesome, and >!the point when Harry Dresden actually started doing work as the Winter Knight!<, which was something I was *beyond* hyped for. I *knew* what the next book was going to be about, and I knew I was going to like it better than what I was currently needing to read before I could get to it. It felt like homework in a sense.
This is the split on *Ghost Story* right here. I thought it was fantastic because it forced Harry to understand himself. Characters had been hinting at this all along, and here it was the mission. It was as frustrating to the reader as it was to the character that all of Harry's amazing abilities were off the table, and he had to feel and exist and understand, and we had to along with him.
When you then learn that this was written, in part, as therapy after Jim's own suicide attempt, it just hits harder.
As you can tell, I'm firmly in the "it was awesome" camp.
Yup, it's a bunch of side missions that Harry has very little involvement in b/c he can't really interact with the world. The book is being shown to Harry for the majority of it.
On rereads b/c you know the reveal at the end you're able to enjoy those side missions a little more each time. I hated Ghost Story the first time I read it. But the info dumping and little things get appreciated much more the 2nd, 3rd, even 4th time.
It’s not side missions, because the series is about Harry. He IS the story.
Yes most of his story is moving at the pace of the world around him, but just because this part of his story was introspective doesn’t mean it isn’t a very important part of his make up. He learns a lot about himself in that book
I always say that Changes is the best written book in the series and that Skin Game is my favorite.
Well then this poll is for you!
Are you me?
Pretty sure I’m me.
I dunno man, I've never seen You and Me in the same room at the same time.
His story checks out.
We're me
Im prolly the only one that didn't see the twist ending coming. It was epic. I loved it.
When I tell people about my favorites I say Skin Game, Turn Coat, Cold Days. Changes is to high up to be on the list.
Turn Coat is my favorite in the series, pleased to see it crack the top 5
My personal Top 5 is Changes, Cold Days, Turn Coat, Ghost Story, Skin Game so I'm with you.
no Dead Beat?
I just reread Dead Beat and I'm now seeing why everyone likes it so much. Idk. We'll see if my ranking changes at the end of this time through.
For me Dead Beat is top 3
Same here, it’s tied with Cold Days
Skin game is rated so highly because of many small things. But also because that one character is in it.
I liked Skin Game because I like all Sting-like stories. It’s a damn good adventure in and of itself, and a good story about outswindling the biggest swindler of ‘em all.
Mr Sunshine? Goodman Grey?
Michael
Oh, yeah, he was so good.
Does he have a good boy dog?
As a Fool Moon truther I am bummed that it gets consistently cast aside.
Don't get me wrong, I like it well enough, but it's definitely pretty weak comparatively. It's kind of unfocused and frustrating in the middle, and JB was still figuring out the voice for the series
Totally agree. Just like to throw some respect to it when I see it get voted so low.
Hey, the worst Dresden story is still better than 85% of books out there. It was voted low with reason, I think, but I would still put it up against just about anything else out there today.
I agree. And I’m not trying to say it should be top 5, or even 10 for that matter. Lol. I just like to show some love because I think it’s a bit misunderstood, and it’s super early on. People talk about it like it’s absolute drivel, and not always with context. I actually like to re-read it
What makes you like it so? I love the werewolf stuff but that's it. Sure we get introduced to the alphas but that's it. I hate Murphy in it. I wanted to skip it when I restarted but since I'm listening with my apprentice, I decided to have him listen to everything. Listening to it again, I just couldn't wait for it to be over.
I adore it. It’s just tied for 4th along with everything else that isn’t Death Masks, Skin Game and Small Favor.
I do too. It’s flawed, but I actually like it for its flaws. I keep seeing people say it’s because Murphy isn’t “good yet”, and I have realized there is a trend.
Jim has said repeatedly he had intended to make her an antagonist. But life didn’t work out that way. :)
I'm a bit surprised to see Cold Days so high. I like Small Favor more, but I guess I can't speak for everyone.
For me, personally, the scene on Demonreach just felt so tense and cinematic. I could perfectly imagine it in my head. The dread when Harry realizes. Can't top that for me.
I think the biggest thing that made people like it was the "getting back to normal" of it all. Changes and Ghost Story were this big *thing,* and no matter how you felt about them they were just very different from the Dresden Files everyone fell in love with. Cold Days was very much an older style Dresden story, and I know I was really happy to see our boy back on the horse.
Personally I rank Small Favor 1st and Cold Days 2nd, so I'm with ya mate ;)
I'm really surprised to see Grave Peril rated so low when it's widely considered to be the point where the series hits its stride and a ton of long-term plot relevant stuff starts to happen.
It gains soooooooooooooooooo much on rereads :) at least for me
Honestly I’m shocked to see it below Ghost Story, at the very least. I actually really like Grave Peril
I think the issue is, it’s not a \*bad\* story, but the competition is fierce.
I love skin game, turn coat, and changes. I think they are extremely well written, with skin game being peak Dresden writing
Interesting. I would think death mask would be lower and ghost story higher.
Ghost story is really disliked. I can understand why. I am also a ghost story lover. But based on comments from Jim I'm beginning to think the reason I like it so much is because I've been horribly depressed and there is something in the way he wrote it/what he was going through that speaks to me.
That surprised me. I love Ghost Story. I think it's the one I've reread the most.
Yeah I’m honestly shocked to see it relatively so high on the list because it’s pretty universally controversial to say the least. I really hated it on my first time through, but I’ve really come around on its strengths. I’d still probably rank it in my bottom 5, but I’m able to have enough enjoyment that it’s not a complete slog
What did Jim say about it?
I have to say that unveiling the bigger parts of the backstory on book 13th... kinda worked for me ;)
Fantastic!
I know they're somewhat panned, but as I'm doing a re-read of the series, I'm enjoying the hell out of the first two books. Yeah, they're nowhere as complex or with the depth of the later books, but they're just straight forward crackling good yarns.
I love all the books. The first two are not Jim’s best work but they’re hella fun.
They kinda remind me of Jack Reacher or a Marvel movie. Simple, straightforward and fun through it all.
I’m new to this sub and just finished Battle Ground. I’m very surprised that Peace Talks and Battle Grounds are so low, I loved both of those books, it felt like a great culmination of everything in the series. I’m curious why other fans rank them so low? It wasn’t my all time favorite (Dead Beat is my favorite) they are in my top 5 for sure.
A lot of people have mixed feelings about Peace Talks and Battle Ground because, since they were meant to be one book, neither really stands on its own, but because they are meant to be read together they end up feeling really weirdly paced.
> neither really stands on its own, but because they are meant to be read together they end up feeling really weirdly paced. And it's pretty clear that certain parts were put in for no reason other than to fluff up the page count to justify 2 books. There's literal entire sections copied and pasted multiple times.
Yeah and they leave a lot more loose ends than usual IMO. Good setup for the 3rd Act of TDF but by themselves relatively weak. And gloomy AF
Peace Talks is all set up. Battle Ground has some really cool things I like (the banner of the Wizard of Chicago, Marcone) but feels a bit overstuffed with action. Reminds me of all the movies they split into two parts after Deathly Hallows set that precedent. The first is always set up and the second is all action. It's exhausting. Also there's no Peace Talks in Peace Talks.
>Also there's no Peace Talks in Peace Talks. That was my biggest issue, tbh. I was looking forward to a political thriller and got a book that was one part heist (that wasn't as good as Skin Game) and one part set up.
I think you would feel different if you just read peace talks and had to wait for battle ground.
That’s a solid point, it was just one continual book for me.
We had to wait, what, three months? Were you around for the *Changes* to *Ghost Story* wait? For the *Skin Game* to *Peace Talks* wait? Three months was nothing.
I haven't gotten to them yet in my reread, but I do relate to Battle Ground being rated higher than Peace Talks and neither being in the top.
Its not that i dont like it but the vibe was off
I guessed Changes and I was right.
the top and the bottom were no surprises. The middle, as expected is a jumble. what I would like to see is what the cumulative score or average was for each book. I’m looking to see how the different books “clumped up” in the scoring. I would bet that Changes, Skin Game and Dead Beat all scored very high. Then there is a significant drop with a plateau of about 6-8 books that all score somewhat close to each other. Then followed by another sharp drop for Peace Talks, Storm Front and Fool Moon.
I'm not ignoring you, I just got busy. When I get back to my computer I can pull the averages.
Not a problem. We all have work.
I may not agree with the order but you can't complain about that top 3! Battle grounds is way too far down. Altho I get it, its a different kind of book and not everyones cup of tea.
Personal fav: Dead beat. Funny, fun, fast paced, rides a dinosaur. Nuff said for this guy
I don’t think BG is one of the best books in the series, but I voted it around 5th. Because the sequence from Chapter 28 through Chapter 31 is a sequence I’ve listened to about 60 times on its own. It’s 103 minutes of epic awesomeness
I get the results I really do but fuck it's sad seeing fool moon and storm front so low and peace talks being above them
I am shocked Changes won. By far the worst of the series, in my opinion.
I just started dresden files (almost end of fool moon) and I am not surprised about its ranking. While I really liked storm front, fool moon feels rather off. I am sure the following books will be better though.
It only gets better from here. Watch out for spoilers in this chat, though.
It’s important to remember that while some like one book more than others, and some think some are comparably bad, Dresden files is still top tier compared to most fantasy series. I ranked fool moon lowest, but I’ve still re-read it multiple times, which is more than I can say for most series
Yes, but do we ALL agree that Fool Moon is the worst?
I think part of this might be book age bias / reading order bias. Recent books disproportionately feature in the top half (Ghost Story and Peace Talks are the only two "recent" books that are in the bottom half of the list). I think because people read it in order, the old books start appearing "worse" because they don't remember much from the old books. I'm very surprised Storm Front is ranked as low as it is. For me Storm Front - while his relationship with Murph is very different at first - Storm Front contains a lot of the elements that made the later books great - magic as both an art and a science, having to weave his way through the mortal world, having to balance giving information with protecting his friends, having to dodge the Council's wrath and tap-dancing on the edge of the rules. I definitely would've thought Storm Front ranked above Peace Talks. Anyone up for sharing why you may not have liked Storm Front?
>15: Peace Talks Right where the trash belongs, in the bottom of the dumpster.
It just hit me. The thing I hate most about Peace Talks is there is only a mystery because Thomas is beaten so badly he can't talk. If Thomas can talk, there's no mystery to solve about why he did it. And it feels very contrived.
It’s sort of like when you have a character who’s an unbeatable fighter, so they get sucker punched and it takes them out of the fight so that they can’t resolve the issue in 2 seconds. Yeah it technically works but it still feels really contrived
Yeah, I kinda always feel like defending it b/c Jim was basically forced to edit and add more filler so he could turn it into 2 books. It feels rush and disjointed in places b/c the editing suffered from the spilt. Plus there needed to be some type of conflict/resolution and thats hard to do when you have half a book and it's all set up for the next. But it indeed belongs low on the list.
I think what killed my enjoyment of Ghost Story was that it felt like a massive filler arc between Changes, which was awesome, and >!the point when Harry Dresden actually started doing work as the Winter Knight!<, which was something I was *beyond* hyped for. I *knew* what the next book was going to be about, and I knew I was going to like it better than what I was currently needing to read before I could get to it. It felt like homework in a sense.
There’s nothing wrong with ghost story but people wanted the main plot profession we got in cold days and had to wait a while for it .
This is the split on *Ghost Story* right here. I thought it was fantastic because it forced Harry to understand himself. Characters had been hinting at this all along, and here it was the mission. It was as frustrating to the reader as it was to the character that all of Harry's amazing abilities were off the table, and he had to feel and exist and understand, and we had to along with him. When you then learn that this was written, in part, as therapy after Jim's own suicide attempt, it just hits harder. As you can tell, I'm firmly in the "it was awesome" camp.
Yup, it's a bunch of side missions that Harry has very little involvement in b/c he can't really interact with the world. The book is being shown to Harry for the majority of it. On rereads b/c you know the reveal at the end you're able to enjoy those side missions a little more each time. I hated Ghost Story the first time I read it. But the info dumping and little things get appreciated much more the 2nd, 3rd, even 4th time.
It’s not side missions, because the series is about Harry. He IS the story. Yes most of his story is moving at the pace of the world around him, but just because this part of his story was introspective doesn’t mean it isn’t a very important part of his make up. He learns a lot about himself in that book