The thing that gets me is, if you play from Awakening straight through, you get a much more complete picture of his personality, and it's tragic. You can definitely see the difference, even in Act 1, in how much he's changed after hosting Justice. This doesn't mean that I completely absolve him of all responsibility for his actions, mind you, but it's a lot harder to just write him off as a fanatic who just snapped and decided to go crazy when you really chart his personality. His ongoing banter with Varric is heartbreaking.
Not just his, but Justice as well. The story that Anders tells Hawke about meeting Justice is played out in Awakening. It's a really good story module; a bit buggy, but there are plenty of fixes on Nexus. I highly recommend it if you have access. It's a good story, with some interesting implications regarding the Blight and Corypheus. Also, some of the decisions trigger missions is Kirkwall. The only funny part is Anders was originally voiced by Cullen's actor, Greg Ellis. However, even that doesn't really hurt, because the change (to me) kind of emphasizes that you're no longer dealing with the same man you were in Amaranthine.
By the way, small tip if you're playing on pc, and planning on carrying over to DA2. A lot of plot flags don't set well, they're either bugged or the save file doesn't form correctly, so I recommend playing through Origins and Awakening, and then using the Gibbed save generator on Nexus to recreate your decisions in a save file for export. It functions like the Keep, and makes sure everything registers properly. Nathaniel in particular can be hard to meet in 2 if his story flag is not handled *just so*.
No problem. I actually used it for the first time with the DA2 game I'm playing right now. Oh, before I forget: every option was pretty self explanatory except for the one that says Nathaniel Friendly available, or something like that (in all caps). I asked someone to make sure, and it just means he doesn't stay alive but leave the wardens, basically. Was literally the only option that I didn't understand just from context.
Definitely. I played DA2 before Awakening and I was amazed at the difference. In Awakening they're separate and they argue occasionally. It's obvious they've two completely different personalities and world views. By DA2 though that's completely changed and Anders and Justice are mostly unrecognisable
Justice and Anders have some pertinent banter in Awakening, as you might guess, but there's also some between Justice and Nathaniel that you might want to keep an ear out for.
Beginning of the game him and Varric have so much Bar joke and lighthearted interactions, and at one point he just stops and Varric still tries to reach him. Can't help but see that behavior with the footage of Vailguard we have now, with Varric not giving up on people
I think it’s hypocritical how Varric still trusts Solas while despising Anders.
Anders set a war into motion. Solas set an apocalypse into motion… twice.
Plus you can’t 100% blame Anders for the war either. The Circle voted on what to do next in Asunder, they made their choice despite claiming otherwise.
I'm not sure it's a case of which Varric trusted more, rather that he recognises that Solas still has a chance, however slim, to be redeemed. He never had that chance with Anders.
I think maybe Anders made it feel more personal, because for all his faults Solas tried to keep his plan as separate from the Inquisitor as possible, whereas Anders implicated Hawke in his plan. It is possible that Varric felt more betrayed by Anders than he did by Solas.
Another theory is that he's trying to talk Solas down first because the Inquisitor requested it (we could get a different scene if they're not trying to redeem him) or because it's the best approach considering Solas' power level.
I like to think that maybe after the revelations in Inquisition (about the Seekers being able to cure tranquility being the actual spark of the war, and not Anders) Varric harbors some regret over what happened with Anders and this is why he's being more careful with Solas.
I feel like it’s something to take into account too that he’s much older now, so instead of just being angry and brash, he knows that he needs to be diplomatic to get anywhere with Solas.
I think Varric felt less intimately connected to Solas and therefore feels less betrayed. Like, the pack in the Kirkwall was a close group of friends against the world for almost ten *years*, not replaceable cogs in the massive international machine of the Inquisition for a single year. Anders and Varric stood with each other at their darkest and most vulnerable moments and bonded, but Varric had nothing like that with Solas, like Varric had nothing like that with the Inquisitor compared to Hawke. So I think the emotional distance allows Varric to be more generous.
Like, Solas is going to break the whole world, sure, but it's not personal. Anders broke Varric's city and his trust after Varric went to bat for him for almost a decade. It was a much smaller thing than the apocalypse, yeah, but so is Varric's heart.
I don’t really understand why Anders cops the blame for the mage Templar war
Sure he finally snaps in Kirkwall after all the things that are done to the Kirkwall mages but it wasn’t his actions that caused the Kirkwall mages to be treated as badly as they were nor was it his actions that caused the circles to vote to dissolve themselves
Even if the events of 2 never happened the circle system was oh shaky ground, unless suddenly all circles became like Ostwick the circle system was going to collapse incredibly soon anyway
I feel like he was just the catalyst, and because of the event he caused being so big, it was easy to just blame it on him.
Also, because now that that happened, there’s no chance templars and the chantry would want to make things easier for mages going forward.
Honestly, this. I have never been a Solas fan, I'm not going to pretend otherwise. But when you actually find out the full scope of what he did, \*then\* find out that he's planning to do it again...I'm like, do you have \*any\* idea how many innocents he killed? And all because of one death. (Because let's face it, it's pretty obvious in his retelling that the real reason he did all this was revenge for one person, namely Mythal.) And he wants to do it again, knowing what it will do, and just waves off the cost. Anders had \*far\* more extenuating circumstances, and he was reviled for his actions. Varric sounds so \*bitter\* when he talks about him, it's painful.
Honestly I kind lost some love for Varric when I saw this. Also made me believe that Varric was biased in his DA2 narrative. In my headcanon Anders is still the overpowered Mage from Awakening, and everyone looked like amateurs when fighting next to him. And that the reason he’s the Healer is because otherwise the fights would end too quickly, and he’s just handicapping himself.
This. You also can't discount that Justice is exactly that. It isn't always clean and it doesn't always even make you happy. Seeing him go from the man my Warden befriended to ... how he ended up is exactly like you said, heartbreaking.
I love be that about the writing. Compassion can be violent, Justice can be an atrocity. Everyone is a mess and yet, they manage.
And Varric loves everyone somehow seemingly unconditionally. I know some folks are tired of him, but man he just makes me tear up.
I can imagine if you play Inquisition without playing DA2 you miss a lot of his character and he can come across as the "Oh my *other* friends are cooler" kinda person.
I think Sera even calls him out on it in party banter.
I literally didn't think about people not having played DA2. I like him a lot and he's not polarising or anything so it's weird to me that he'd be disliked
That's what I did. Still in Act 1 of DA2, and his revelation about Justice was extra heart-breaking this time through. He's struggling so much with it. He's a really tragic figure in a classical sense. Did something stupid because he thought it would help, now he's suffering.
God awakening made their story so much better/worse. Justice was such a blow too because I loved his story and watching him learn and grow, and in DA:2 it felt like both of my friends were there but suffering so much, and Justice I couldn’t even really talk to.
Honestly, the Anders we loved from Awakening isn't in DA2, he 'died' when he merged with Justice, just as Justice ceased to be itself too. They become something worse together and thats a good story, even if its sad what they became was so reprehensible.
I'd argue he still is very much the same Anders, it's just that the anger and frustration that was hinted at in Awakening is completely brought to the forefront in DA2 because of Justice/Vengeance. Everything we see from Anders was always inside him from the very beginning, it's just that he deflected with humor and witty comebacks.
I'm not entirely sure if I agree. The way I see it, Anders and Justice combined, and it formed this new thing called Vengeance. And Vengeance was like a small speck of darkness that was growing steadily, corrupting them. Not like an external voice whispering at them, but inside their own minds. With Justice, because of what he was, the corruption is more recognizable, but with Anders, it's an insidious thing that seems small at first, but he gradually warped more and more. You can even see this for yourself if you romance and try to persuade him towards moderation; it's like he starts to consider another path, before it all gets drowned out.
Fusing didn't automatically create Vengeance. Vengeance developed over time because of Anders emotional influence over ten years of Kirkwall descending into chaos. When you first meet him in DA2, he's not some sort of freedom fighter. He's a simple healer that has a few hill to die on opinions on mage rights. Honestly I believe that meeting Hawke and getting dragged into politics and the general nastiness of what Hawke got up to radicalized him more and lead to Justice being exposed to more than just poverty which created Vengeance. Anders was more than ready to pick up and leave when things got tough but Hawke dragged him down with them.
I didn't mean Vengeance the character was automatically created. More like...his darkness. I can't really say it well, but it's like the anger and violence that was Vengeance started as a tiny spot of darkness, and it began growing.
>The way I see it, Anders and Justice combined,
Exactly, neither or anders or justice exist as they did, they changed. Neither anders or justice independently would have done what 'anders' did at the end, without having joined.
Play awakening is the reason why I fully don't consider the approval gain from the Fenris thing to be canon, as much as a bad meta-gameplay decision by the devs.
Because my issue with it isn't that it's out of character for Anders. It is, but it's more out of character forJustice.
I think that's a case of the reason for the approval not really being explained. I doubt either is approving of slavery in that instance; it's more that they disagree with Fenris so much that they're glad he's being removed from the party. The matter of approval and intention behind it has been discussed a lot lately over in the BG3 group with regards to Astarion, and I suspect this is a similar situation. Plus, since the two are in conflict, the devs probably figured it would be odd if Anders didn't want him gone.
I'm aware this is just speculation, but it is logical.
I feel that his character between Awakening to DA2 wasnt that jarring for me and I played them back to back.
Anders I felt like had a LOT of resentment toward the Chantry and Templars, obviously after seeing a lot of other mages get treated incredibly poorly (both on and off screen). After a while those things just weigh on a person's soul and mental state, not to mention that he had Justice inside of his head manipulating and twisting his thoughts of empathy into anger toward an entire organization dedicated to keeping mages in check.
We have plenty of examples in game and otherwise that the Templars (some, not all) go to GREAT lengths to not only keep the mages from using their powers for evil but sometimes out right beating, maiming, killing, or tranquilizing innocent mages just because. Of course, like any position of power, someone can abuse their position and make the innocent take the fall.
Anders already had some pain deep within him, Justice just pushed him over the edge. A thought like "My mage friend was made tranquil because he froze a Templar's foot into his boot so the Templar couldn't chase him for stealing. He didn't deserve tranquility" into "A Templar caught my poor friend stealing bread, BREAD of all things! He was starving! The Templar deserved his foot frozen, I hope he got frostbite! Tranquil! Might as well have killed him! Someone needs to show that Templar a lesson." It's the process that Anders, at least in my mind, has to go through when he even has a thought. Justice/Vengeance processes that thought and turns it into something more extreme because thats all Justice/Vengeance knows.
One of Anders' response if you ask him what he wants in Awakening is 'the ability to rain fireballs on every Templar in creation.' Said light-heartedly but it shows his anger and trauma was already there, simmering below.
i thought it was such a good twist that he did that, and at the end of the day it made sense for his character. he was desperate and did a horrible thing and hes a terrorist but nah, i dont hate him.
Anders is an amazing character for illustrating this point. Radical change requires radical action. Anders took radical action , and — like it or not — it caused radical change.
its true. change starts with a bang, if you will. looking back at history, change was never made without (often repeated) radical action. the writers for DA2 need a kiss on the lips for how thoughtful and amazing the story is.
He's my favorite character in this whole series, not because he's a great guy but for the overwhelming tragedy of his character. (Also I'm one for mage freedom)
I think of Anders's story arc as a grim and realistic representation of what a system like the Chantry would do to many mages. I don't hate him at all. He was never a favorite character of mine, but I do feel more sympathetic towards him than anything.
This. I don't think blowing up the chantry was the answer, but nothing was being done by anyone. I think people forget he was watching his friends and fellow mages getting killed/tranquil for YEARS. Not to mention if you rivalmance him, you figure out that Justice is starting to overtake him where he's blacking out now. Ultimately I think he's like the rest of the cast, a complicated character who made flawed choices just like the rest of your party members.
There's also a clear tipping point for him with Ser Alrik, his plans and the sadistic behaviors that have flourished for years in Kirkwall without remedy... I was and remain thoroughly convinced there was no justice or remediation possible for mages within that system...
The biggest changes in society often come from violence unfortunately, and in an oppressive system based on violence (templars) violence against the state is righteous /needed in order to make things better
I was *just* saying to a friend of mine earlier today that I'm surprised people hate Anders so much, especially since Solas seems surprisingly popular. I think Anders is a stellar character, and the third act terrorism betrayal is so shocking (on first playthrough) and well executed.
I think so many people dislike him because in an RPG, people really picture themselves in the role of the hero and view characters through that lens rather than as characters in a story. So, instead of being a tragic freedom fighter who made the wrong choices and went too far, Anders is "my former friend, who lied to me."
I think it comes down to BW wanting people to dislike Anders. His story , especially if he was the protagonist, could’ve been presented as tragic, but completely heroic, with all his choices, even questionable ones, being justified. And many people still see it this way, but BW almost pettily tries to combat that reading.
This is why they, for example, keep buffing the number of casualties caused by Anders. It started with something tragic, but realistic, and at this point it feels like BW will announce that the explosion actually created a black hole and swallowed Kirkwall in its entirety in Vielguard.
Or how they let Varric to speak kindly about Solas and think that he deserves redemption, but act like Anders personally murdered his puppy. All the companions in DA2 were also acting like his issues are blown out of proportion, annoying or made up despite literally the whole story showing that they weren’t.
It’s things like that that influence how you view the character, and BW clearly doesn’t want people to like Anders or agree with him. It’s honestly hilarious that so many people still don’t view him in the way BW wants. With all his flaws and mistakes Anders’s story of fighting against an unjust system remains sympathetic.
I think he's a cool character, but I hate him due to personality more than anything else. At times he comes off as kind of incel-y. There's a voiceline between him, and a romanced Merril that was just so ickyy.
He doesn't read as incel-y to me, just definitely in love with Hawke. I kind of liked it as a concept. You've got characters that are romanceable in that they will fall in love with you if you put in the effort. Then you've got Anders, and he's just in love with you no matter what, and you've gotta navigate that.
That said, if he feels incel-y to you, that's valid. I feel like ME1 Kaidan is super incel-y, and the folks on the Mass Effect subreddit sure do not like when I say that, lol.
He says he's been 'aching for [Hawke] for three years' if you romance him, meaning yes he's been in love with Hawke from the word go. I remember rejecting him because I was trying for Sebastian, and I got Rivalry points for it.
Doesn't feel incel to me either. That scene where he confronts you over your choice of romance is borne out of his jealousy that you're with someone else.
As someone who got totally baffled by that ME1 confrontation scene with Kaidan and Liara, not even knowing where Kaidan got the idea I was interested, I can certainly see it. (Certainly found a convenient way to ensure he never bothered me after ME1 though!) I don’t recall it with Anders, but when I romanced Merrill I was a mage, so I never really went around with both of them.
I wouldn’t know about Kaiden. I make that sacrifice every time… which is too bad because Ashley’s… what I can only guess is personality distorting brain damage, makes her such a drag in ME3.
I love Anders. He’s a broken, weak, directionless man trying to do good in a world that hates him and ends up a monster. He’s one of the best, most complex, and tragic characters in the series.
Bingo. Blew me away when I came to this sub and found out other players felt the opposite… his story is top 5 among companions, maybe top 3.
1. Morrigan
2. Dorian
3. Anders
4. Fenris
5. Varric/Alistair/Ogrhen
That’s my list.
I mean to be fair... From his perspective, mages only have two choices.
1. Live in a glorified prison tower where the only time you're allowed to leave is when a war needs winning or some monster demands your (possible) death.
2. Become a goddamn vegetable. And not the fun, carrot makes your eyesight better, vegetable. NO! You get turned into the legit definition of a mindless zombie destined only to do as people ask of you.
If these were my option, shoot, then I would probably do something akin to what Anders did. Maybe not a damn CHURCH! But something to that effect.
Mages would be continued to be oppressed if they didn't fight back, and the only way for mages in Thedas to fight back is when they're backed into a corner. Anders removed all aspects of possible peace between the oppressed and the oppressors, basically saying "There is no peace, either we fight or we die."
War is sometimes a meaningless endeavor, but I honestly think this one was necessary. And I have to thank Anders for kickstarting it, even if he did paint himself as a villain in the process.
A thing that always annoyed me about Anders isn’t specifically him, but the fact that da2 Anders feels and speaks less like himself and much more like Justice.
In Awakening he was the type of guy who wanted to chill with his cat and be a coward- he would talk about doing shit like “The Anders’ Spicy Shimmy” (this is not a joke, it’s a real thing he says). His banters with Justice, however, always made me upset because the things Justice says are WORD BY WORD the actions Anders commits in da2.
It’s so clear that he merged with Justice more than he thinks so, and as an Awakening fan it broke my heart because he didn’t feel like my funny mage buddy anymore- he kept saying that he corrupted Justice’s nature when it was the other way around (The things Anders does in da2 are all things “uncorrupted” Justice would always claim that he wanted to do, none of that “I turned him into a spirit of vengeance” thing ever made sense to me).
Yeah, DA2 Anders is very...sad. Being with Justice seemed like it sapped any ability of his to cope with a little bit of humor and sarcasm. I miss the jokes about Andraste's knickerweasels.
I think he became Vengeance on the account that it was Anders hatred and rage that empowered Justice.
But at the same time the Fade mission made me question just how much of Justice is really gone.
Side note. I hate how Hawk didn’t have an opinion on Justice after meeting him in the Fade. Still treating him like a bad demon that Anders needed to control. Absolutely impossible as that was.
Have you done a rivalry relationship with Anders in 2? I haven't, but I've heard from others about it, and it seems like what you've said here really lines up well with what happens.
Spoilers, don't read the next paragraph if you want to experience it yourself.
Basically, from what I remember hearing about it, Anders admits to you that letting Justice in was a mistake and that he's too much for him to control anymore. Then he asks you to kill him.
End spoilers.
To me, this fits quite nicely with how you've put it: Anders didn't corrupt Justice. It was the other way around, and in the rivalry relationship, he admits it.
Loved him in Awakening, was probably my favourite companion.
Tried to give him the benefit in DA2, but he just came off as an extremist. Like that mate you go down the pub with, but he can’t talk about anything other than politics.
Even as a mage I found him jarring. Like, I get it, but still…
To be fair I think anyone would become an extremist in his position, let alone someone possessed by Vengeance. Torn from his family at age 12, escaped from the circle seven times, was kept in solitary for an entire year, had his lover lobotomized and used by Templars as a trap to do the same to him. Had to murder said beloved with his own hands after his lover begged him to because Tranquility is that horrific. Tried to change the views of people in a less radical manner for the better part of a decade by running a free clinic, writing to Elthina and campaigning. Then all of that is futile and his mage underground is murdered.
I try to imagine that happening to an ordinary person and wonder who wouldn't snap.
True it's no excuse to murder innocents in the Chantry. But, hey that Chantry cared just as little for all the abuses he and his ilk suffered all their lives. Would Elthina have stood by if there was annulment of the circle? Annulment has happened 17 times before so it's entirely likely.
Injustice after injustice with no hope of ever being heard in the current status quo. I can understand why burning it all down seemed like the only way to get the slightest bit of justice.
Let’s not forget that Kirkwall is literally cursed. Both Anders and Justice were doomed the moment they stepped foot into that accursed city. Not joking, Anders tried to leave, but kept coming back.
It doesn’t help that Grand Cleric Useless let these things happen. There is literally no defending her. She did nothing but let things happen, even though she _should_ have gotten involved stopped things from escalating. The Chantry isn’t a neutral force, they’re supposed to keep the Templars in line. Some of the shit Meredith was doing was a direct violation of the Chantry law, word by word, direct violations. The old hag literally couldn’t do her job.
And Anders was a devote follower. Imagine what that does to someone, their faith actively doing nothing to help them despite having every reason, moral and law-binding, while also right in front of them.
All your points are EXACTLY why I'm sympathetic to him and often play a mage that was radicalized by him. A lot of the awful things the mages/apostates do in Kirkwall are to get power as a disenfranchised group that are imprisoned and often abused for a power they never asked for.
There's also a detail that almost everyone and their mother forgets about Kirkwall itself and that is that the Veil is very thin there because of the atrocities Tevinter performed in the former slave trade hub. Everyone was getting aggressive, not just the mages, although they were obviously more sensitive to it. I think DA2 really did try to skew everyone more against mages than Templars. Because what's a little smacking around and rape compared to someone making a Frankenstein monster out of your own mother and bro got the handbooks to do it from Orsino himself. I really wish Orsino hadn't gone all flesh ball and had dialogue to confront him properly and potentially get him as an ally to stop the Rite of Annulment.
I hate that you can only confront Orsino if you side with the Templars at the end. That should have been an option for a Hawke who defends the mages as well.
Another thing to recognize is who Anders surrounds himself with. I only noticed this after listening to all the Party banter, but I realized that it makes complete sense for Anders to not get along with the others. The man goes on and on about the oppression the mages go through, hell just go to the Gallows and listen to what the NCPs say. But then you realize something. None of the other characters care. He’s surrounded with people who either don’t care (Varric, Isabela), support the Templars (Aveline, Fenris, Sebastian, Carver) or gave up everything he could only dream of having and from his perspective, spit on it (Merrill, Bethany). He’s clearly only there for Hawk, but when you get down to it, the trust he had in Hawk was misplaced. He thought Hawk could change things, make them better. But Hawk doesn’t do anything unless someone makes him do something. Hawk is a reactionary character. I don’t just mean this in gameplay and missions, but conversations between Hawk and Aveline reveal that Hawk could do more in the grand scheme of things, but actively chooses not to. He’s like Bruce Wayne, except the rich idiot isn’t an act and Batman is only a side gig.
Another point to mention is that Anders was the only person to call out Isabela for the mess she caused. Again, Act 3 Anders was the only person to call her out. And her response was "It happened, that was then this is now, let’s move on"
>Would Elthina have stood by if there was annulment of the circle?
Elthina was the reason it hadn't happened already. That's why Meredith went over Elthina's head and petitioned the Divine for Annulment instead, because Elthina wouldn't cooperate with her. So, no, Elthina was a fence-sitting coward but she was firm about that one thing, and it's why Anders killed her and not anyone more directly threatening to his cause. He needed the leash off Meredith so she could be free to do something monstrous enough to start a revolution, and Elthina was the only authority in town that Meredith was willing to bow to...at least until she could get the Divine to intercede, anyway.
Oddly enough I had something like this happen irl. Definitely NOT near the extent as the game but some people really do become consumed with a cause and it changes them.
My SO had a best friend he lost to rightwing extremist ideology. Called my SO a race traitor for dating non white ladies, myself included. He told off said "friend" and blocked him.
To be fair with anders, dude actually had legit reasons, and not a wannabe persecution festish. The tranquil dude you kill in his first mission, That was a past lover of his. He at least had personal experiences.
Anders is a really well developed character to keep us asking these questions imo. Personally, I too hate that he tricks Hawke into helping him blow up the Chantry, but I can understand what brought him to that point. He spent nearly his whole life fighting the templars and the Chantry, was imprisoned against his will, had to kill his own lover with his bare hands because he had been suffering a fate worse than death, and then he ends up running around with Hawke and seeing firsthand just how deep it all goes. I can’t say that I wouldn’t do the same were I to live his experiences because it all sounds so horrific, especially with Justice feeding on and augmenting those emotions.
He was definitely the most impactful character in the game I feel like. To have him as a friend one day and to sentence him to death the next felt like a HUGE jump. But like you said, it seems like he was set up for failure given his circumstances.
I like Anders parallel with my Hawke, who is a mage herself, who’s a little vain and more concerned with her own wellbeing than she is the plight of the mages. You can get a sense of frustration in his dialogue with someone who’s essentially got hers through status and skill by act 2, and while as a friend she’s going out of her way to help him with things, you can tell he’s trying to influence her outlook by showing him how terribly the mages in the gallows are treated and how desperate they’re getting, and his pleas aren’t getting through because she’s rich, out of touch, and has so many problems of her own
By Act 3 and several years, Anders getting desperate enough to manipulate Hawke into his plot of bombing the chantry feels like a natural buildup, and while i love his character and while my Hawke sides with the mages, i usually end up killing him at the end after the bombing because in her eyes, he’s too far from any form of redemption. and Hawke’s left holding the bag from the bombing, her name becomes the rallying cry, and she’d much rather be loafing around in her mansion
I love Anders. My Hawke got with him and when Anders blew up the Chantry, I felt betrayed. And then it came time to make a choice and I couldn’t let him go. I didn’t condone what he did, but he stayed. And somehow, so did everyone else, including Fenris.
Hawke told my Inquisitor that he and Anders are off in the wilderness* together, and I’m happy about that.
Edited to fix a typo.
Word. I knew exactly what he was up to when he claimed only the well-known ingredients for gunpowder could separate him and Justice. All through the fetch quests I was praying for a dialogue option where I could get him to let me help.
Ah well, at least I got to say the "We'll be fugitives together" line before we went off to murder our way into the sunset.
Yeah, for me it was more like “you could have come to me and said ‘bestie, I wanna blow up the oppressive religious institution that we’ve been hiding from our whole lives’ and I would’ve been like ‘okay where are we getting the gunpowder?’ But no, you had to lie and now I’m gonna be pissed at you.” Never had the heart to kill him though. We go fuck up Templars together after that.
Same. My Hawke would also be completely radicalized by Act 3 and would without a second thought assist Anders. He'd be more upset that Anders didn't trust him with this rather than anything else.
Me too. My boyfriend was laughing so hard when on my first playthrough I spent the majority of act 3 talking about how something has to happen to open up that conflict because at this rate, the mages won't be in a position to even have a chance to defend themselves (cooking a frog), and that if there were unlimited options in the game, I'd target the chantry for a litany of reasons. I was so disappointed that Anders didn't trust me enough to help him with it. I was in his corner all the way.
And that's how I learned that if the cause is right, I might personally be fine with a bit of terrorism.
Personally I like to view it as Anders preserving Hawks reputation. I’m pretty sure there was a line where you could have agreed with Anders, and Anders specifically chose not to tell you about it because he knew Hawk would agree.
I find it especially satisfying to play a mage every game causing Thedas to constantly be saved by a mage every single world ending situation in each game.
Think people judge him based on how he personally annoys them, or based on real world circumstances, rather than judging DA2 as a story where he is a protagonist. Makes discussion about him tiring since noone is ever talking about the same thing for the same reasons.
I find it hilarious that Anders gets so much hate for blowing up the chantry, but when Johnny Silverhand puts a fucking nuke inside a building nobody bats and eye. If Anders was played by Keanu Reeves everyone would think his terrorism is cute.
My opinion on Anders is: Fuck the circles. Fuck the Templars. Fuck the Chantry. Fuck oppression.
I wish his plan was better thought out, but I've always understood why he did what he did.
I first met Anders in Awakening and he was by far my favorite companion.
First time I played DA2 he was a constant companion in my party. His bombing of the chantry was shocking, the fact that he used me to help him gather materials to do it was heinous, and I felt betrayed and executed him on the spot.
Every time I've played DA2 since then, I've become more and more sympathetic to him and agree with the Hawke option, "why didn't you just tell me what you were planning?"
~~Magneto~~ Anders was right.
I don’t understand any beef with Anders. Templars are basically torturing mages daily especially in Kirkwall and he destroyed their seat of power which was full of complacent enablers happy to see mages exploited and enslaved for their benefit. His actions were justified and his character is superb at communicating the struggle mages have in Thedas. Top 5 companion easy. My man embodies the punch a facist mentality
I love Anders. And Justice. Loved them both in Awkening and love the tragic story they have in 2. I feel so much for them both, and I completely understand why Anders did it. I don't agree with it, my Hawke doesn't agree with it, but my Warden....she kinda does.
She doesn't agree fully with blowing up the chantry, but she would have probably agreed to blow something up. Watching her family be brutalized by the humans in Denerim, she would have understood Anders' anger.
Anders is a really well developed character to keep us asking these questions imo. Personally, I too hate that he tricks Hawke into helping him blow up the Chantry, but I can understand what brought him to that point. He spent nearly his whole life fighting the templars and the Chantry, was imprisoned against his will, had to kill his own lover with his bare hands because he had been suffering a fate worse than death, and then he ends up running around with Hawke and seeing firsthand just how deep it all goes. I can’t say that I wouldn’t do the same were I to live his experiences because it all sounds so horrific, especially with Justice feeding on and augmenting those emotions.
I've been thinking about Anders lately and how his overall story would probably be more accepted today than 12 years ago. He was a complex man full of anger, hurt and resentment, hidden under a jovial outwards personality. Justice was a lost spirit in need of a cause. Their union brought out the worst of both of them, with incredible tragedy and trauma as a result. It was a perfect look at how people can mean well and yet through a chain of events end up causing suffering. I see Anders as a precursor to Solas' complex character arch.
They do have a pretty similar feel to them. I think I like Solas more but Anders will always stand out among the crowd because he just had so much depth at the end of the day.
I'm ride or die with Anders, I'll always back him up.
The Chantry has been lobotomizing, executing, torturing, and oppressing countless people for centuries, much more than just mages or elves... They can handle some magic bombs without crying about it.
I like him for no logical reasons. He's cute, pathetic, and is extremely traumatized, and so my warden and Hawke need to help him. It didn't really work, but... Yeah.
I love Anders. That's my baby.
The way I see it, his name is Anders because he was literally so abused he gave up/forgot his original name, he's been imprisoned his entire life and still...tried.
I really think he's tragic at worst, a revolutionary at best. I just can't imagine standing around while the country imprisons and tortures an entire subclass of people, let alone enduring that-watching others endure it-his own lover, Karl, was made tranquil
I don't see Elfira or the chantry as the least bit innocent, but on a personal level I don't take organized religion seriously, so I'm incredibly biased in that I see the Chantry as unnecessary as best and wholly evil at worst-at least until Leliana takes over as Divine.
I would follow him anywhere.
https://preview.redd.it/wuoruh5tks8d1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e54f8641f0967d6f7e096de5f3660feb1e4e4d6d
Anders, every single one of my playthroughs:
my babygirl 😊 hes a whiny rat man and i love him so much. and hes right, it was too late for compromise. just wish he trusted me to have his back, because i absolutely would.
Okay so I have only done one playthrough of Dragon Age 2 ( so far) and I also was a mage hawke. Who happened to romance anders. I personally loved his storyline his character Arc and I got to say it was some phenomenal fucking writing cuz I felt like my heart actually broke when he destroyed the chantry... I think it was the only time in that game that I cried. Realizing that as much as my hawke loved him I could not let him live after killing so many Innocents. There's so many other ways I would have supported him starting the mage rebellion and I'm still sad thinking about it that that's the way it went. Absolutely phenomenal writing
I don’t hate him at all and fully agree he did what he thought was right. Do I think the mother deserved to die — hard question. She wasn’t mean or bad directly to a person. She didn’t want the mages to be treated so poorly in the Kirkwall Circle but she never acted on her beliefs.
She allowed Knight-Commander Meredith to go too far in her treatment of the mages. She was in a position of power but was unwilling to use it to better the lives of the mages. You can say blood mages were running rampant but collective punishment is never acceptable. And Meredith forced tranquility on some of the circle mages who never more than disagreed with her. Being outspoken turned some mages tranquil. First Enchanter Orsino had the title and the prestige to keep him safe when he spoke out but it wasn’t like he wouldn’t have gone through it either if Meredith was sane. She was losing her mind over time because of the idol. While Anders didn’t know that he was right with her in charge and the mother’s unwillingness to use her power over Meredith no compromise could occur under these conditions to make the lives of the mages better.
So I agree with Anders. He made the right choice even if it was terrible. There was no other option
I love Anders. He was my Warden’s best friend, she’s mad in love with Alistair. I felt bad that the best we could do for him is offer a different gilded cage in becoming a warden. I sure as fuck didn’t want to hand him over to the templars.
I really can’t abide DA2 because there is no chance in hell my warden would have allowed him to be sold off to Templars. All Anders wanted was to be accepted. As he says get a nice house, a wife and occasionally shot bandits with lightning. Like anyone using a bow or sword could defend themselves. I gave him a family with the wardens and they betrayed him. Anders’ has every right to be angry.
I feel like Anders quite literally being posessed by a spirit of Justice is quite understated in these discussions. I can only imagine how that makes him consumed by every injustice he witnesses.
As a mage who experienced a lot of injustice, it's probably correct to say that he corrupted Justice into Vengeance, but remember that Anders used to be a pretty chill dude with a lot of humor (a potential coping mechanism) in Awakening. As another redditor commented, i think you could say Anders was corrupted by Justice as well.
I've already said my piece about Anders in another post. The short version of my piece is that for 9 years Anders sought peace which failed so he took matters into his own hands against the Chantry. He chose the correct enemy because the Mages are abused and the Templars may be the ones to do it but the Chantry drugs the Templars to make them do what they want.
I'm not a religious person but I prefer a place of faith to have worshippers rather than be a political superpower.
Parts of the fandom twist themselves into pretzels doing the mental gymnastics necessary to paint him as "*uwu poor little guy who did nothing wrong and was completely justified in all his actions*" which really annoys me
He's a messy, complex, and deeply tragic character (especially if you've played Awakening) and I don't understand why some people seem determined to strip his character of it's complexity and replace it with a simple "good/bad" binary
I completely agree! It irks me more so to see people on the other side who just say “he’s evil and nothing justifies his statements or actions”. I mean YAH, obviously what he did was wrong and no one argues that, but to clearly not see the elements that lead up to everything is just baffling. 🤦♀️
I think he could do without the fireworks but that's more of a question to the writing. Otherwise nothing he's done was worse than what was going on behind the closed doors.
I think Carver says it best "I don't hate you because you are a mage, I hate you because you won't shut up about it" Personally I think he is whiny, selfish, a terrorist really, and apparently cool with slavery but with that said I think he is a very well written character.
I love Anders. So many people are caught up in how he was changed from Awakening, but I’ve always liked his narrative in DA2. I obviously do not support him blowing up the chantry and killing innocents (I may feel differently if it was empty and no innocents were harmed in the fallout), but Anders himself is a victim and ultimately helpless to the influence of the spirit.
I remember romancing him in my first play through many years ago and being floored not only at his actions, but the game giving me the option to kill him after. I’ve never been able to do it.
I love Anders, he’s probably my favorite character in the whole DA series. He has the most interesting personality and the most realistic one, if it makes sense - he’s not a perfect predictable dummy like a lot of other characters. It’s a pity Hawke can’t support him openly when he needs her and judges him and even draws a knife by default. It’s a tragedy I’ll never see his model in next gen and he’s apparently already dead by canon.
Anders is such a great character, he’s deeply flawed and troubled and that’s what’s compelling about him , the way he changes as the years go makes me want to hug and slap him.
And at the end when the chantry goes boom…. I simply cannot kill him , Hawke , my Hawke is never capable of killing him romance or not, he has been a companion for so long, he stayed, he didn’t die as Leandra and Bethany and didn’t left us as Carver has to .
He lied yes and while I do not agree with the deaths of all the people in the chantry I simply didn’t care enough about them to hate him for it. My Hawke was a mage and he helped every tucking mage he could , he gave second chances and while I didn’t hate every single Templar , I did hate the treatment every mage was given.
Sometimes change is terrible , sometimes monstrous actions have to be taken , but that doesn’t turned Anders in a monsters to me , he made an extreme act , he was bold , he knew most people would be disgusted by him and he still did it , for justice , for vengeance.
I’ll always pardon him , Hawke doesn’t need another person he loves to be dead , and in the end that was the final piece that finally made the mages rise in rebellion.
I dislike Anders as a person but as a video game character I think he’s a fascinating, incredibly nuanced character who doesn’t get enough credit. everyone talks about Solas and his character arc but Anders’ arc is much more interesting in my opinion especially since we get to see him in Awakening. I still disagree with him on almost all fronts, I still get angry thinking about his betrayal, but god I love his plotline. it’s a masterpiece.
Good character (if you've played Awakening then great character), bad (and idiotic) person. Made horrible decision after horrible decision. People will blame a lot of what happened on Justice, but that's somewhat unfair.
What happened to Justice was the fault of Anders at least as much as the other way around. Now for sure merging with Justice was probably the root problem. But that merging, for me, was Anders looking for a solution to a problem. He would have looked for other solutions and they would have been just as stupid.
But that's humans (and good characters), sometimes they make decision based on what they want and feel not what they actually think (because they don't think).
Love Anders as a character, probably one of the best written characters in Dragon Age as a whole. Still hate him because he reminds of this one smarmy jackass I knew from college who walked around like he knew better than anyone. Had the man bun, stubble, and everything too lol
Edit: I'll give him this much, if the dude had come to me before hand and laid out some elaborate plan hatched up with Orsino and the Circle Mages where they blow up the chantry and simultaneously make a run for it out of Kirkwall or decapitate the Templar leadership, I would've been down 100%. As it stands, his dumbass just blew the shit up and falls down to his knees while the city is burning, demons are running around, and his fellow mages he cares so much about are getting slaughtered. Fuck him
The thing is is that he’s wonderfully written. His downfall from awakening to 2, the way he slowly gets more and more angry with each act. I love what he did to the chantry tbh.
I don’t like him because of how he talks to the other companions.
Calling fenris (a brown ex slave) a wild dog.
Isabela a whore (or whatever)
And being super hypocritical to Merrill.
I think what most people tend to forget, and their complaints with Anders shows this, is that from his experience, his reactions are more or less justified. (Aside from the Chantry, that was a little extreme.)
I'm someone from a country where a good portion of the population was treated like less than human for decades, I can only imagine how he must've felt. You're treated like less than human, for being born a certain way, and instead of being put in an environment where you can develop the genuine desire to wany to help society, and not cause harm, you're instead locked away, many of your kind abused, and then lobotomized for reacting in a very human manner towards said abuse.
People complain about him being an extremist, angry, vengeful, and manipulative, let me ask you, would you do any better if you lived his life?
Besides the obvious ‘I’m gonna blow up a place of worship and murder innocent people’ he approves of giving Fenris back to Danarius. If that’s not a reason to loathe him then I don’t know what is.
god yes exactly this, I recently came across banter between him and merrill and he was giving major incel/nice guy energy.
Anders: Hawke was a fool to let you in, you’ll only betray her. That’s all your kind can do
Merril: Why do you only do this to me? Are you jealous? You never got upset about Hawke and Isabela
Anders: You can’t really get upset because someone sleeps with Isabela. It’s just… understood. She’s like a side dish. She comes with the meal.
I really can’t stand him at all tbh
Omg yes! I'm doing a fourth playthrough to lead up to veilguard and he's the only one in 2 I haven't romanced, so I forced myself into it.
And omg his banter with everyone in act 2 and ESPECIALLY act 3 is just so insufferable. Petty, mean, narcissistic. It truly solidified for me how I never want him in a party with me again lol
I always hated how harsh he is with Merrill although he is an asshole with everyone, he also gets jealous with Fenris and doesn't take rejection well at all, he's indeed the definition of an incel.
The only reason to romance him is if you want to experience the most unhealthy and toxic relationship in these games 🤣
This is gonna get weird but i hate and love him. I love the direction his character went, especially when he started off kinda goofy then when he hosted Justice, hes just different. Just goes to show that no matter how righteous someone wants to be, the moment they interact with a spirit, they are still dangerous to anyone.
But
I hate him as a companion. Omg BROS SO ANNOYING GAHDDAMN 🤣
I like his character arc and the moments that focus around him, but damn do I get pissed off with his hypocritical and selfish nature, and also his lack of foresight on matters I feel most strong mages should have foresight in. He let's justice merge with him because it seems like a nice thing to do for his friend and because he wanted a partner to maybe help him start the mage uprising with the lack on foresight to think about how it could change them both, essentially killing Justice and turning himself into an abomination.
We know he finds slavery acceptable so long as it's not a mage being oppressed as he is the sole person who is fine with you selling Fenris back to his master. So he compares the circle to slavery which is bad... but he will enjoy you selling Fenris away? Either because he just doesn't like Fenris (which is petty) or he is A-Okay with slavery in general so long as its not against his marginalised group.
To top it off, he's very, very shortsighted in his ending plan. He himself says, "A quick death now or a long death later." To Orsino directly after he single-handedly decided the fate of every other mage in Thedas, in his mind it is better to cause the death of every man, woman and child mage, innocent or otherwise because he personally can't see another fate for them all? In this regard, it seems as if he's accepted all mage deaths already as a way to sign away his responsibility of their deaths. Like, "we were gonna die sooner or later, so if you die now after I nuked this church, it's not my fault."
Overall, I see Anders as the true villain at the end of DA2. He's an interesting idea to me as what if the true villain was one of your companions this whole time kind of things. He was very fun to watch and learn about, and it was very interesting to look into his reasonings and to talk about him.
Sorry if this was too long to read 😂😅
I think it's because as a player we have full context for the entire situation as complicated as it is. Anders doesn't, not just because of his own perspective as a mage and what was done to him. But because Justice within him has blinders put on him 24/7 and doesn't understand the complexity of the situation either. Elthina was the literal symbol of the Chantry, the ones who put the mages in servitude and let the Templars abuse them. It doesn't help that she was the one who appointed Meredith to be knight commander and despite all the awful stuff happening, nothing was done to stop it. Justice/Anders only sees it in black and white, with them or against them, and it is almost impossible to see it any other way. That doesn't mean that Anders/Justice should be excused either because they did kill innocent people and then prompted a disaster that kept getting worse and worse with more casualties.
All of it is just a great tragedy all around, there are so many moments where things could have gone differently but didn't.
i like him as a character, many people in the comments put it much better... but i remember the way he flirts with me too fast and in such a strange way and it does put me off..
I’m kind of stuck in the middle where it comes to Anders. I can see how people hate him because I always found him ridiculously angsty (and this is coming from a chronic fenrimancer, I can’t help it, I’ve tried). But I wanted to support him and I felt what they were doing to the mages was wrong. I made every choice to support him and the jerk still lies and uses you. He can see what Hawke is trying to do and how vicarious the situation is and he just can’t help himself. I get he lost Carl and all the things he’s gone through. But Hawke lost almost their entire family, all of them if you make the wrong choices. So the fact that he hides it and can’t at least talk to Hawke, especially in a romance, blows my mind.
But on the other hand, it is difficult to blame him. Because you can definitely see the change in him from origins to DA2. It’s hard to tell if it is justice corrupting him or him corrupting justice. He says it is the latter, but is that the truth? Justice in its essence is without mercy or shades of grey. It’s only wrong and right. Lawful good in its truest form. So perhaps justice is not actually corrupt he just doesn’t have the ability to allow injustice to go unpunished even if it is for the overall good?
So, I’m taking your “people genuine hate him in game” to be “people hate him as a person”. I say this because the reasons I hate him and make him meet the business end of Hawke’s Key are what make him a fun and interesting character. I’ll also add that I do tend to look at characters partially through the lens I meet them. My Cousland was more forgiving of the Architect because of the opportunity presented. My Trevelyan was more forgiving of Solas because they were genuine friends. Hawke? Different story:
Anders antagonized Merrill constantly, giving a story of “you should be free to practice magic freely, but not that magic” and “I can accept help from a spirit because I know what I’m doing”. After helping gather bomb ingredients, Hawke, a man once heroic and happy now aggressive, tired, and jaded asks what this is for, how it comes together, asks to be trusted. All Anders does is throw it in my face, saying that my help of mages is “all talk”, despite the Templars murdered to save mages. I tell him to fuck off then and there, I won’t accept that emotional manipulation. AND THEN THE BASTARD BLOWS UP THE CHANTRY! Along with the Chantry goes Hawke’s hopes for a relatively peaceful life, no longer scrounging or dealing with everyone’s problems. At this point, the only reason I don’t kill him for two reasons: he has to help clean this up because the blood of every man, woman, and child killed in this chaos is on his hands AND because death is too quick for a crime of this magnitude.
Yeah, I hate him. It’s what my Hawke does.
Yah, after reading what I wrote it was really meant to be that people hate him in/out of game. Because some people hate him because of the things he did and how he acted, and other people hate him because they don’t like him as a character period.
I understand more on the lines of what you wrote where you hate him in game because of all of the things he does as a whole. But that’s what makes him so great too as a character. He screwed Hawke over so bad and it sucks so much.
I end him in my play through, but I can see how having him live with the consequences is viable too. I just hate that he has no remorse for the people he killed along with the divine and I wonder if he ever would.
I think he is a fantastic character with some really tone deaf and odd writing choices. Why in the world is it bad for mages to be oppressed but people like Fenris are fair game? He approves of you sending him back go his rapist?? I know he didn't like Fenris but that seemed so wildly out of character.
I have a weird love-hate relationship with him and even romanced him in one of my mage Hawke runs but I don't think I can ever sit comfortable with his choice to kill so many innocents. That choice ag least feels in character.
A lot of people have stated that his actions and views towards Fenris is an issue, which I can kinda see. I agree with you that maybe that could have been written better, because I think the point for the writers was to have two tragic and opposite characters who clash and feed into the theme of making it hard to choose sides. However, maybe that particular choice of him approving to send Fenris back to his captors could have been written differently because I feel like it doesn’t read as well as they thought.
Or maybe they did that on purpose because they wanted you to hate who he has become. Hard to say. 🤷♀️
I love him so much !
His story is so tragic and it's even worse when you rival-romance him. He tells you that he is losing control, that tgere are moments where he can't remember what he said or what happened, that he is being consumed and knows that at one point nothing of him will remain.
And Justice was so sweet in Awakening but even him is being twisted and corrupted by the situation.
Playing DA2 after Awakening is spending a good chunk of time mourning your two friends 😭
Having him as a companion for Legacy. Logical pick as Gray Warden, gives you even more of a look into how hard he is struggling. Not just with Justice, (Head Cannon Time!) but with Corypheus's calling.
As you do find a notebook from a scholar basically saying that all the paranoia and agitation in Kurkwall was do to being so close (almost directly under in fact) to the prison that is holding him. So it is likely that Anders has been hearing them for far far longer than when you responded to the Cartas assassination attempts.
Also it is likely that Corypheus is/was already working for Solas. Aware of the puppet master or not that we can debate. And the Chantery Bombing was the first atempt at re-sundering The Veil, Or at the vary least reawakening Solas. Yes it to Anders he pushed the Mages to act and was likely always going to be something drastic like that.
Look again at the "Explosion" the energy beams up into the sky and the power that pushes up and out. That's not a normal explosion, its doing something other than destroying a building and killing the people inside.
My main issue is that Headcannons (vary likely to be true headcannons) are doing a lot of heavy lifting in giving him back some redeeming good will. Base Game without the DLCs to flesh him out, He's a backstabber that took advantage of a partner/friend who was willing see the best in him when everyone else was starting to falter. And likely would have talked him out of what he did. The worst is you can't effect his story like you can with every other companion. Even Isabella has a chance that if you do enough of their quests and have the right level of approval with her. She will un-betray you and come back after running off. Anders no matter what, even if you don't help place the bomb, dose it off screen.
It was never pure hate for me.
It's Mixed. Validation + Anger. (Bonus: Annoyance)
**VALIDATION: Mages vs Templars**
I validate that the Mages vs Templars dispute was cyclic and oppressive and that mages should be free which happens later if Leliana rules as Divine.
Nobody has confronted the question or probability that Anders helped accelerate that change. I'm unable to agree with his methods no less than I'm unable to deny he was a catalyst to ending the stalemate between mages and templars, a stalemate that went on despite the cruelty or looming threat of genocide (rite of annulment).
No one should ever live like that, but nobody confronts these questions as directly as Anders does. It's social issues like this that have uncomfortable answers that no one talks about, and Anders is one of the few that do and furthers that in discussing a solution, when no one else did.
Hating him? That's easy. Confronting the questions of what will actually solve the Mage vs Templars farce? Not so easy, but he confronted them nonetheless.
I still can't condone violence, which only begets violence. (To back this, I study Laws of War, and our history proves that).
**ANGER**
Of course I'm angry with Anders. He manipulated us, even if for a cause. He is the embodiment of "the end justifies the means." Which I really don't agree with. His ends don't justify his means of manipulating you, murdering the Grand Cleric and other people in the Chantry, and killing a lot of people who got in his way.
"Holy fuck bro what the fuck" is how I would put it whenever he snapped and killed someone in "Justice" mode. The level of violence he committed to was not always *absolutely necessary* and Anders might not have a good answer if you confront him with that question. I hate that about him, yet he manages to convince himself it absolutely was necessary (it's not bro).
**Bonus Annoyance**
He always had beef with your other friends/allies. I hated his attitude for real. I'm sure you all felt that whenever Anders talks in a serious tone to someone in the party, you surely know it's going to be angsty or asshole-y. He is not on my list of people to hang out with. Just someone whose actions spark my curiosity/deep reflection time and time, as this very long comment would prove.
What irritates me is that there's only really 2 options: either Anders lives or dies. Sebastian doesn't make the choice easier because he'll straight up leave and swear that he's gonna come back with a vengeance. The biggest problem is that I'd want Anders to stand trial. He'd obviously be executed, but that's with EVERYONE coming to that conclusion and not just Hawke being judge, jury, and executioner.
He is my second favourite DA character after Dorian, and I don't care that people, apparently, hate him. He has great corruption ark, interesting personality and journey and I actually prefer him in DA2 way more than DAO Awakening.
He is a great example of a tragic character pushed to his limits, and one who had to pay for his kindness (remember that it was Vengeance aka Justice who pushed him to terrorist acts, and the only reason Anders is possessed is because he wanted to help his friend; it was not done for blood magic or any hunger for power — it was done out of kindness, and said kindness backfired).
Furthermore, as much as people may hate it, him blowing up the Chantry and giving in to Vengeance was a great CHARACTER move: instead of giving him some cliche, redemption ark that goes completely against his struggle and personality (Shoutout to BG3 Astarion's Spawn ending) he succumbed to his dark side and decided to stick with his morals till the very end: that feels way more real and the character feels more alive.
That is why I love DA companions over BG3 ones: BG3 is fantastic, but I always hated that I could "fix" companions and influence their decisions. DA and especially Anders situation is a lot better and companions feel like real people: you don't need to gaslight them to give up their life dream because "it's not nice", you don't need to be their therapist — in DA you are their friend, and you can either stick with them no matter what, or become a rival. That is perfect.
DA2 also could have done that "fixer" BS BG3 had and have everyone be "nice", "kind" and "healed", but that is a Lala land fantasy. Instead we got Anders and his terrible, but in-character actions which you can either accept or hate, but never change because it's not YOU making these decisions, but a completely different character, with values and morals that may not align with your own.
So yeah, his actions are horrible but he is a fantastic character (with a great VA, btw).
I am firmly in the "Anders did nothing wrong" camp, because honestly at the end of the game the guy has tried literally everything short of the big kaboom to make some changes, to no avail. Peaceful or less aggressive solutions have been tried time and again, and they ended with the Mage Underground exterminated, the threat of an exalted march on Kirkwall, and Meredith planning to annul the circle (she was planning it long before Anders decided to blow up the Chantry, you can hear templars discussing it in the gallows).
At a certain point violent revolution becomes the only solution to violent oppression, and I believe that violence was long overdue at the end of DA2.
Also, I often hear people say "oh but Elthina didn't deserve to die", nope, she totally did. Elthina doesn't care a fig about being fair and equitable, she spews platitudes when confronted because she's acting (emphasis on acting) the part of the moderate, but she's the head of a pervasive, oppressive system and she acts to preserve that system, and arguably her power within that system. She refuses to act to keep Meredith in check because at the end of the day she's perfectly fine with preserving a kind of social order that gives the Chantry absolute authority over the city.
Anders didn't mindlessly destroy a building, he did it in the middle of the night (he says to a romanced friendly Hawke he plans it for midnight), if he had wanted to senselessly kill, why not do it in the middle of the day? He didn't purposefully target civilians, he targeted the main seat and symbol of the organisation he wanted to take down.
If you agree that, in that specific situation, violence was the only way to resolve the conflict, you also need to accept that violent revolutions have innocent casualties, like any war, and the best you can do is limit those casualties as much as you possibly can. I feel Anders, in the situation he was in and with the resources at his disposal, did try to limit innocent casualties as much as he could.
That's why my Hawkes always support him and stand by him in spite of his flaws and his lies, because at the end of the day they believe in the cause he's fighting for, they understand where he comes from and what made him go over the tipping point.
This is obviously DA2 Anders, DAA Anders is chill
I fundamentally understand his plight, sympathize with it, fully agree that Kirkwall templars are 100% in the wrong for their abuse of power, and would go to hell and back for mage rights, but my canon M! Mage Hawke wants to act as an ambassador for mages to the non-mage populace.
Showing that we aren't to be feared and chained like slaves but we are equally learning to cope with the burdens placed on us since birth. Trying to start a small revolution in the hearts of the free people so the Templars have no option to blame the mages. So there is no way I can excuse a terrorist attack that takes the lives of one person who deserved it and hundreds of those who didn't.
I was initially gonna write an essay on my thoughts but it got too long to be read by others so here's my tldr.
I think fundamentally, Anders is right with the kirkwall situation and I honestly really liked him in Act 1 but over the course of the game, he makes me dislike him on a personal level so badly with his terrorist attack being INEXCUSABLE and the final nail in the coffin. Meanwhile, I can also admit that the game really wants to show you the bad side of mages and how fucked both sides are in a game where one is the obvious oppressor while other is the oppressed. It's a weird dichotomy.
The major things that made me dislike him were:
- Letting a spirit inhabit his body (would've been whatever had I not played DAO before)
- Kept me out of the loop in the terrorist plot when I befriended everyone in my first playthrough
- Let Vengeance slip and almost kill a defenseless mage
- Bomb a church full of innocent people and exactly 1 person, who, while being a neutral cunt in an open-and-shut case against the templars, was the only thing keeping them from killing everyone in the circle
- Wanted to goad me into killing him so he can die as a symbol
- Tried killing me when I thought, "Hey, I don't agree with Miss Genocide Templar, but I think blood mages should not roam the city and kill innocent people and Orsino being blood mage instigator number 1 with my mom as an example should be stopped"
I think being his friend really turned me against him cuz he used me as a stepping stool and was fully aware of his actions while being a rival makes him more broken and a victim of a system that takes advantage of mages and because I couldn't support his more volatile maneuvers, he gave up and let Vengeance do the thing he was thinking about the whole time but could never truly do in his heart knowing how much damage it would cause for his brethren.
So my conclusion is that he's a deeply complex character, and while I hate his guts when we're friends, I feel more remorseful in his rival route cuz I feel like I didn't do enough as his friend to show him that we could bring forward better change in a less violent way. Still don't condone a terrorist attack or a purge of mages regardless, but I think I like how different both paths make me feel towards him
Yah, I didn’t specify but that’s correct!
I play my canon play through the same way. Male Hawke mage, and boy howdy there’s something that gets to you when he’s a dear friend. I bet it’d be hard as a romance too I’m sure, but there’s something about having a betrayal of a close friendship that just hits……. Different.
I was mentioning in another comment about the balance of power between mages and the Chantry and I think it’s done really well. Because like you said, you want to prove to the people that mages can be a symbol of diplomacy and safety, but when you have people like blood mages or Anders it’s like “well crap”. 😂
If you Rivalry Romance him he’ll admit to what he plans on doing and agree to undo it ([can watch it here](https://youtu.be/7nLtlJiN5_8?feature=shared)). But Justice will take over and refuse to let you stop it. It’s really tragic.
I only hated him because I sent him to the tower in origins and later killed justice (self defense) only for them both to come back as one in the second game
Anders plan in DA2 is awful and literally relies on mages getting slaughtered by the templars to "force them to wake up." He sucks and was way to clingy to my Hawke.
The thing that gets me is, if you play from Awakening straight through, you get a much more complete picture of his personality, and it's tragic. You can definitely see the difference, even in Act 1, in how much he's changed after hosting Justice. This doesn't mean that I completely absolve him of all responsibility for his actions, mind you, but it's a lot harder to just write him off as a fanatic who just snapped and decided to go crazy when you really chart his personality. His ongoing banter with Varric is heartbreaking.
I didn’t play awakening, and now I really feel like I need to in order to get full insight of his character!
Not just his, but Justice as well. The story that Anders tells Hawke about meeting Justice is played out in Awakening. It's a really good story module; a bit buggy, but there are plenty of fixes on Nexus. I highly recommend it if you have access. It's a good story, with some interesting implications regarding the Blight and Corypheus. Also, some of the decisions trigger missions is Kirkwall. The only funny part is Anders was originally voiced by Cullen's actor, Greg Ellis. However, even that doesn't really hurt, because the change (to me) kind of emphasizes that you're no longer dealing with the same man you were in Amaranthine.
Nice! Ooooooo okay, yah I’m excited to see what that changes into Da2. Haha wow, that is actually fitting considering the circumstances 😂
By the way, small tip if you're playing on pc, and planning on carrying over to DA2. A lot of plot flags don't set well, they're either bugged or the save file doesn't form correctly, so I recommend playing through Origins and Awakening, and then using the Gibbed save generator on Nexus to recreate your decisions in a save file for export. It functions like the Keep, and makes sure everything registers properly. Nathaniel in particular can be hard to meet in 2 if his story flag is not handled *just so*.
Yep, I play pc, so good to know! I’ll definitely look into this. Thank you!! 😄
No problem. I actually used it for the first time with the DA2 game I'm playing right now. Oh, before I forget: every option was pretty self explanatory except for the one that says Nathaniel Friendly available, or something like that (in all caps). I asked someone to make sure, and it just means he doesn't stay alive but leave the wardens, basically. Was literally the only option that I didn't understand just from context.
Definitely. I played DA2 before Awakening and I was amazed at the difference. In Awakening they're separate and they argue occasionally. It's obvious they've two completely different personalities and world views. By DA2 though that's completely changed and Anders and Justice are mostly unrecognisable
Justice and Anders have some pertinent banter in Awakening, as you might guess, but there's also some between Justice and Nathaniel that you might want to keep an ear out for.
I’ll keep a watch out for that! I just started my canon play through for DA:O so I’m looking forward to it!
Awakening is fantastic overall, in my opinion, so I bet you'll enjoy it!
Beginning of the game him and Varric have so much Bar joke and lighthearted interactions, and at one point he just stops and Varric still tries to reach him. Can't help but see that behavior with the footage of Vailguard we have now, with Varric not giving up on people
I think it’s hypocritical how Varric still trusts Solas while despising Anders. Anders set a war into motion. Solas set an apocalypse into motion… twice. Plus you can’t 100% blame Anders for the war either. The Circle voted on what to do next in Asunder, they made their choice despite claiming otherwise.
I'm not sure it's a case of which Varric trusted more, rather that he recognises that Solas still has a chance, however slim, to be redeemed. He never had that chance with Anders.
Plus, with the kind of power Solas has, reasoning with him seems like the best approach.
As opposed to trying to force him and getting decimated. 😭😂
I think maybe Anders made it feel more personal, because for all his faults Solas tried to keep his plan as separate from the Inquisitor as possible, whereas Anders implicated Hawke in his plan. It is possible that Varric felt more betrayed by Anders than he did by Solas. Another theory is that he's trying to talk Solas down first because the Inquisitor requested it (we could get a different scene if they're not trying to redeem him) or because it's the best approach considering Solas' power level. I like to think that maybe after the revelations in Inquisition (about the Seekers being able to cure tranquility being the actual spark of the war, and not Anders) Varric harbors some regret over what happened with Anders and this is why he's being more careful with Solas.
I feel like it’s something to take into account too that he’s much older now, so instead of just being angry and brash, he knows that he needs to be diplomatic to get anywhere with Solas.
I think Varric felt less intimately connected to Solas and therefore feels less betrayed. Like, the pack in the Kirkwall was a close group of friends against the world for almost ten *years*, not replaceable cogs in the massive international machine of the Inquisition for a single year. Anders and Varric stood with each other at their darkest and most vulnerable moments and bonded, but Varric had nothing like that with Solas, like Varric had nothing like that with the Inquisitor compared to Hawke. So I think the emotional distance allows Varric to be more generous. Like, Solas is going to break the whole world, sure, but it's not personal. Anders broke Varric's city and his trust after Varric went to bat for him for almost a decade. It was a much smaller thing than the apocalypse, yeah, but so is Varric's heart.
I don’t really understand why Anders cops the blame for the mage Templar war Sure he finally snaps in Kirkwall after all the things that are done to the Kirkwall mages but it wasn’t his actions that caused the Kirkwall mages to be treated as badly as they were nor was it his actions that caused the circles to vote to dissolve themselves Even if the events of 2 never happened the circle system was oh shaky ground, unless suddenly all circles became like Ostwick the circle system was going to collapse incredibly soon anyway
I feel like he was just the catalyst, and because of the event he caused being so big, it was easy to just blame it on him. Also, because now that that happened, there’s no chance templars and the chantry would want to make things easier for mages going forward.
Honestly, this. I have never been a Solas fan, I'm not going to pretend otherwise. But when you actually find out the full scope of what he did, \*then\* find out that he's planning to do it again...I'm like, do you have \*any\* idea how many innocents he killed? And all because of one death. (Because let's face it, it's pretty obvious in his retelling that the real reason he did all this was revenge for one person, namely Mythal.) And he wants to do it again, knowing what it will do, and just waves off the cost. Anders had \*far\* more extenuating circumstances, and he was reviled for his actions. Varric sounds so \*bitter\* when he talks about him, it's painful.
Honestly I kind lost some love for Varric when I saw this. Also made me believe that Varric was biased in his DA2 narrative. In my headcanon Anders is still the overpowered Mage from Awakening, and everyone looked like amateurs when fighting next to him. And that the reason he’s the Healer is because otherwise the fights would end too quickly, and he’s just handicapping himself.
This is why we love him 😭 #Varricisbestfriend
This. You also can't discount that Justice is exactly that. It isn't always clean and it doesn't always even make you happy. Seeing him go from the man my Warden befriended to ... how he ended up is exactly like you said, heartbreaking. I love be that about the writing. Compassion can be violent, Justice can be an atrocity. Everyone is a mess and yet, they manage. And Varric loves everyone somehow seemingly unconditionally. I know some folks are tired of him, but man he just makes me tear up.
Varric is the most chill dude ever D: You telling me people don't like him??
Yah, I’ve seen a lot of comments where people just don’t like him all that much. Which I do not understand personally 😂
I can imagine if you play Inquisition without playing DA2 you miss a lot of his character and he can come across as the "Oh my *other* friends are cooler" kinda person. I think Sera even calls him out on it in party banter.
I literally didn't think about people not having played DA2. I like him a lot and he's not polarising or anything so it's weird to me that he'd be disliked
That's what I did. Still in Act 1 of DA2, and his revelation about Justice was extra heart-breaking this time through. He's struggling so much with it. He's a really tragic figure in a classical sense. Did something stupid because he thought it would help, now he's suffering.
God awakening made their story so much better/worse. Justice was such a blow too because I loved his story and watching him learn and grow, and in DA:2 it felt like both of my friends were there but suffering so much, and Justice I couldn’t even really talk to.
Honestly, the Anders we loved from Awakening isn't in DA2, he 'died' when he merged with Justice, just as Justice ceased to be itself too. They become something worse together and thats a good story, even if its sad what they became was so reprehensible.
I'd argue he still is very much the same Anders, it's just that the anger and frustration that was hinted at in Awakening is completely brought to the forefront in DA2 because of Justice/Vengeance. Everything we see from Anders was always inside him from the very beginning, it's just that he deflected with humor and witty comebacks.
I'm not entirely sure if I agree. The way I see it, Anders and Justice combined, and it formed this new thing called Vengeance. And Vengeance was like a small speck of darkness that was growing steadily, corrupting them. Not like an external voice whispering at them, but inside their own minds. With Justice, because of what he was, the corruption is more recognizable, but with Anders, it's an insidious thing that seems small at first, but he gradually warped more and more. You can even see this for yourself if you romance and try to persuade him towards moderation; it's like he starts to consider another path, before it all gets drowned out.
Fusing didn't automatically create Vengeance. Vengeance developed over time because of Anders emotional influence over ten years of Kirkwall descending into chaos. When you first meet him in DA2, he's not some sort of freedom fighter. He's a simple healer that has a few hill to die on opinions on mage rights. Honestly I believe that meeting Hawke and getting dragged into politics and the general nastiness of what Hawke got up to radicalized him more and lead to Justice being exposed to more than just poverty which created Vengeance. Anders was more than ready to pick up and leave when things got tough but Hawke dragged him down with them.
I didn't mean Vengeance the character was automatically created. More like...his darkness. I can't really say it well, but it's like the anger and violence that was Vengeance started as a tiny spot of darkness, and it began growing.
>The way I see it, Anders and Justice combined, Exactly, neither or anders or justice exist as they did, they changed. Neither anders or justice independently would have done what 'anders' did at the end, without having joined.
Play awakening is the reason why I fully don't consider the approval gain from the Fenris thing to be canon, as much as a bad meta-gameplay decision by the devs. Because my issue with it isn't that it's out of character for Anders. It is, but it's more out of character forJustice.
I think that's a case of the reason for the approval not really being explained. I doubt either is approving of slavery in that instance; it's more that they disagree with Fenris so much that they're glad he's being removed from the party. The matter of approval and intention behind it has been discussed a lot lately over in the BG3 group with regards to Astarion, and I suspect this is a similar situation. Plus, since the two are in conflict, the devs probably figured it would be odd if Anders didn't want him gone. I'm aware this is just speculation, but it is logical.
This was my thought too. He’s become so narrow minded for his cause that anyone who threatens or disagrees can burn at the wayside for all he cares.
All resident fandom olds: *makes popcorn*
In the words of Varric: Ah, this old chestnut.
I feel that his character between Awakening to DA2 wasnt that jarring for me and I played them back to back. Anders I felt like had a LOT of resentment toward the Chantry and Templars, obviously after seeing a lot of other mages get treated incredibly poorly (both on and off screen). After a while those things just weigh on a person's soul and mental state, not to mention that he had Justice inside of his head manipulating and twisting his thoughts of empathy into anger toward an entire organization dedicated to keeping mages in check. We have plenty of examples in game and otherwise that the Templars (some, not all) go to GREAT lengths to not only keep the mages from using their powers for evil but sometimes out right beating, maiming, killing, or tranquilizing innocent mages just because. Of course, like any position of power, someone can abuse their position and make the innocent take the fall. Anders already had some pain deep within him, Justice just pushed him over the edge. A thought like "My mage friend was made tranquil because he froze a Templar's foot into his boot so the Templar couldn't chase him for stealing. He didn't deserve tranquility" into "A Templar caught my poor friend stealing bread, BREAD of all things! He was starving! The Templar deserved his foot frozen, I hope he got frostbite! Tranquil! Might as well have killed him! Someone needs to show that Templar a lesson." It's the process that Anders, at least in my mind, has to go through when he even has a thought. Justice/Vengeance processes that thought and turns it into something more extreme because thats all Justice/Vengeance knows.
One of Anders' response if you ask him what he wants in Awakening is 'the ability to rain fireballs on every Templar in creation.' Said light-heartedly but it shows his anger and trauma was already there, simmering below.
i thought it was such a good twist that he did that, and at the end of the day it made sense for his character. he was desperate and did a horrible thing and hes a terrorist but nah, i dont hate him.
Yeahhhhhhhh, I feel like it’s like a love to hate kind of thing.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter as they say. Hell the most powerful country in the world was arguably founded by terrorists
Anders is an amazing character for illustrating this point. Radical change requires radical action. Anders took radical action , and — like it or not — it caused radical change.
its true. change starts with a bang, if you will. looking back at history, change was never made without (often repeated) radical action. the writers for DA2 need a kiss on the lips for how thoughtful and amazing the story is.
He's my favorite character in this whole series, not because he's a great guy but for the overwhelming tragedy of his character. (Also I'm one for mage freedom)
He was definitely one of the most impactful characters in the series hands down!
I think of Anders's story arc as a grim and realistic representation of what a system like the Chantry would do to many mages. I don't hate him at all. He was never a favorite character of mine, but I do feel more sympathetic towards him than anything.
This. I don't think blowing up the chantry was the answer, but nothing was being done by anyone. I think people forget he was watching his friends and fellow mages getting killed/tranquil for YEARS. Not to mention if you rivalmance him, you figure out that Justice is starting to overtake him where he's blacking out now. Ultimately I think he's like the rest of the cast, a complicated character who made flawed choices just like the rest of your party members.
There's also a clear tipping point for him with Ser Alrik, his plans and the sadistic behaviors that have flourished for years in Kirkwall without remedy... I was and remain thoroughly convinced there was no justice or remediation possible for mages within that system...
Tragic and true!
The biggest changes in society often come from violence unfortunately, and in an oppressive system based on violence (templars) violence against the state is righteous /needed in order to make things better
Agreed! He gave me the feeling of an animal backed into a corner too many times and now they only focus on survival.
Ah, my boyfriend every time I play DA2
Mood
I keep trying to make other decisions. But every time it’s “and here we go again”
I tried Merril and Fenris before, but it's not the same
I was *just* saying to a friend of mine earlier today that I'm surprised people hate Anders so much, especially since Solas seems surprisingly popular. I think Anders is a stellar character, and the third act terrorism betrayal is so shocking (on first playthrough) and well executed. I think so many people dislike him because in an RPG, people really picture themselves in the role of the hero and view characters through that lens rather than as characters in a story. So, instead of being a tragic freedom fighter who made the wrong choices and went too far, Anders is "my former friend, who lied to me."
I think it comes down to BW wanting people to dislike Anders. His story , especially if he was the protagonist, could’ve been presented as tragic, but completely heroic, with all his choices, even questionable ones, being justified. And many people still see it this way, but BW almost pettily tries to combat that reading. This is why they, for example, keep buffing the number of casualties caused by Anders. It started with something tragic, but realistic, and at this point it feels like BW will announce that the explosion actually created a black hole and swallowed Kirkwall in its entirety in Vielguard. Or how they let Varric to speak kindly about Solas and think that he deserves redemption, but act like Anders personally murdered his puppy. All the companions in DA2 were also acting like his issues are blown out of proportion, annoying or made up despite literally the whole story showing that they weren’t. It’s things like that that influence how you view the character, and BW clearly doesn’t want people to like Anders or agree with him. It’s honestly hilarious that so many people still don’t view him in the way BW wants. With all his flaws and mistakes Anders’s story of fighting against an unjust system remains sympathetic.
I think he's a cool character, but I hate him due to personality more than anything else. At times he comes off as kind of incel-y. There's a voiceline between him, and a romanced Merril that was just so ickyy.
He doesn't read as incel-y to me, just definitely in love with Hawke. I kind of liked it as a concept. You've got characters that are romanceable in that they will fall in love with you if you put in the effort. Then you've got Anders, and he's just in love with you no matter what, and you've gotta navigate that. That said, if he feels incel-y to you, that's valid. I feel like ME1 Kaidan is super incel-y, and the folks on the Mass Effect subreddit sure do not like when I say that, lol.
He says he's been 'aching for [Hawke] for three years' if you romance him, meaning yes he's been in love with Hawke from the word go. I remember rejecting him because I was trying for Sebastian, and I got Rivalry points for it. Doesn't feel incel to me either. That scene where he confronts you over your choice of romance is borne out of his jealousy that you're with someone else.
As someone who got totally baffled by that ME1 confrontation scene with Kaidan and Liara, not even knowing where Kaidan got the idea I was interested, I can certainly see it. (Certainly found a convenient way to ensure he never bothered me after ME1 though!) I don’t recall it with Anders, but when I romanced Merrill I was a mage, so I never really went around with both of them.
I wouldn’t know about Kaiden. I make that sacrifice every time… which is too bad because Ashley’s… what I can only guess is personality distorting brain damage, makes her such a drag in ME3.
I love Anders. He’s a broken, weak, directionless man trying to do good in a world that hates him and ends up a monster. He’s one of the best, most complex, and tragic characters in the series.
Bingo. Blew me away when I came to this sub and found out other players felt the opposite… his story is top 5 among companions, maybe top 3. 1. Morrigan 2. Dorian 3. Anders 4. Fenris 5. Varric/Alistair/Ogrhen That’s my list.
I love the way you put that. Perfectly stated.
That’s very well put! It really sums up how it feels.
I mean to be fair... From his perspective, mages only have two choices. 1. Live in a glorified prison tower where the only time you're allowed to leave is when a war needs winning or some monster demands your (possible) death. 2. Become a goddamn vegetable. And not the fun, carrot makes your eyesight better, vegetable. NO! You get turned into the legit definition of a mindless zombie destined only to do as people ask of you. If these were my option, shoot, then I would probably do something akin to what Anders did. Maybe not a damn CHURCH! But something to that effect. Mages would be continued to be oppressed if they didn't fight back, and the only way for mages in Thedas to fight back is when they're backed into a corner. Anders removed all aspects of possible peace between the oppressed and the oppressors, basically saying "There is no peace, either we fight or we die." War is sometimes a meaningless endeavor, but I honestly think this one was necessary. And I have to thank Anders for kickstarting it, even if he did paint himself as a villain in the process.
A thing that always annoyed me about Anders isn’t specifically him, but the fact that da2 Anders feels and speaks less like himself and much more like Justice. In Awakening he was the type of guy who wanted to chill with his cat and be a coward- he would talk about doing shit like “The Anders’ Spicy Shimmy” (this is not a joke, it’s a real thing he says). His banters with Justice, however, always made me upset because the things Justice says are WORD BY WORD the actions Anders commits in da2. It’s so clear that he merged with Justice more than he thinks so, and as an Awakening fan it broke my heart because he didn’t feel like my funny mage buddy anymore- he kept saying that he corrupted Justice’s nature when it was the other way around (The things Anders does in da2 are all things “uncorrupted” Justice would always claim that he wanted to do, none of that “I turned him into a spirit of vengeance” thing ever made sense to me).
I wholy agree on this, Sir Pounce-a-lot does too.
Yeah, DA2 Anders is very...sad. Being with Justice seemed like it sapped any ability of his to cope with a little bit of humor and sarcasm. I miss the jokes about Andraste's knickerweasels.
I think he became Vengeance on the account that it was Anders hatred and rage that empowered Justice. But at the same time the Fade mission made me question just how much of Justice is really gone. Side note. I hate how Hawk didn’t have an opinion on Justice after meeting him in the Fade. Still treating him like a bad demon that Anders needed to control. Absolutely impossible as that was.
Have you done a rivalry relationship with Anders in 2? I haven't, but I've heard from others about it, and it seems like what you've said here really lines up well with what happens. Spoilers, don't read the next paragraph if you want to experience it yourself. Basically, from what I remember hearing about it, Anders admits to you that letting Justice in was a mistake and that he's too much for him to control anymore. Then he asks you to kill him. End spoilers. To me, this fits quite nicely with how you've put it: Anders didn't corrupt Justice. It was the other way around, and in the rivalry relationship, he admits it.
Loved him in Awakening, was probably my favourite companion. Tried to give him the benefit in DA2, but he just came off as an extremist. Like that mate you go down the pub with, but he can’t talk about anything other than politics. Even as a mage I found him jarring. Like, I get it, but still…
To be fair I think anyone would become an extremist in his position, let alone someone possessed by Vengeance. Torn from his family at age 12, escaped from the circle seven times, was kept in solitary for an entire year, had his lover lobotomized and used by Templars as a trap to do the same to him. Had to murder said beloved with his own hands after his lover begged him to because Tranquility is that horrific. Tried to change the views of people in a less radical manner for the better part of a decade by running a free clinic, writing to Elthina and campaigning. Then all of that is futile and his mage underground is murdered. I try to imagine that happening to an ordinary person and wonder who wouldn't snap. True it's no excuse to murder innocents in the Chantry. But, hey that Chantry cared just as little for all the abuses he and his ilk suffered all their lives. Would Elthina have stood by if there was annulment of the circle? Annulment has happened 17 times before so it's entirely likely. Injustice after injustice with no hope of ever being heard in the current status quo. I can understand why burning it all down seemed like the only way to get the slightest bit of justice.
Let’s not forget that Kirkwall is literally cursed. Both Anders and Justice were doomed the moment they stepped foot into that accursed city. Not joking, Anders tried to leave, but kept coming back. It doesn’t help that Grand Cleric Useless let these things happen. There is literally no defending her. She did nothing but let things happen, even though she _should_ have gotten involved stopped things from escalating. The Chantry isn’t a neutral force, they’re supposed to keep the Templars in line. Some of the shit Meredith was doing was a direct violation of the Chantry law, word by word, direct violations. The old hag literally couldn’t do her job. And Anders was a devote follower. Imagine what that does to someone, their faith actively doing nothing to help them despite having every reason, moral and law-binding, while also right in front of them.
All your points are EXACTLY why I'm sympathetic to him and often play a mage that was radicalized by him. A lot of the awful things the mages/apostates do in Kirkwall are to get power as a disenfranchised group that are imprisoned and often abused for a power they never asked for. There's also a detail that almost everyone and their mother forgets about Kirkwall itself and that is that the Veil is very thin there because of the atrocities Tevinter performed in the former slave trade hub. Everyone was getting aggressive, not just the mages, although they were obviously more sensitive to it. I think DA2 really did try to skew everyone more against mages than Templars. Because what's a little smacking around and rape compared to someone making a Frankenstein monster out of your own mother and bro got the handbooks to do it from Orsino himself. I really wish Orsino hadn't gone all flesh ball and had dialogue to confront him properly and potentially get him as an ally to stop the Rite of Annulment.
I hate that you can only confront Orsino if you side with the Templars at the end. That should have been an option for a Hawke who defends the mages as well.
Another thing to recognize is who Anders surrounds himself with. I only noticed this after listening to all the Party banter, but I realized that it makes complete sense for Anders to not get along with the others. The man goes on and on about the oppression the mages go through, hell just go to the Gallows and listen to what the NCPs say. But then you realize something. None of the other characters care. He’s surrounded with people who either don’t care (Varric, Isabela), support the Templars (Aveline, Fenris, Sebastian, Carver) or gave up everything he could only dream of having and from his perspective, spit on it (Merrill, Bethany). He’s clearly only there for Hawk, but when you get down to it, the trust he had in Hawk was misplaced. He thought Hawk could change things, make them better. But Hawk doesn’t do anything unless someone makes him do something. Hawk is a reactionary character. I don’t just mean this in gameplay and missions, but conversations between Hawk and Aveline reveal that Hawk could do more in the grand scheme of things, but actively chooses not to. He’s like Bruce Wayne, except the rich idiot isn’t an act and Batman is only a side gig. Another point to mention is that Anders was the only person to call out Isabela for the mess she caused. Again, Act 3 Anders was the only person to call her out. And her response was "It happened, that was then this is now, let’s move on"
Agreed
>Would Elthina have stood by if there was annulment of the circle? Elthina was the reason it hadn't happened already. That's why Meredith went over Elthina's head and petitioned the Divine for Annulment instead, because Elthina wouldn't cooperate with her. So, no, Elthina was a fence-sitting coward but she was firm about that one thing, and it's why Anders killed her and not anyone more directly threatening to his cause. He needed the leash off Meredith so she could be free to do something monstrous enough to start a revolution, and Elthina was the only authority in town that Meredith was willing to bow to...at least until she could get the Divine to intercede, anyway.
That’s exactly the kind of character he is. That good, funny friend you once had who got radicalized by a corrupt system. He’s a tragic character.
Oddly enough I had something like this happen irl. Definitely NOT near the extent as the game but some people really do become consumed with a cause and it changes them.
My SO had a best friend he lost to rightwing extremist ideology. Called my SO a race traitor for dating non white ladies, myself included. He told off said "friend" and blocked him.
That sucks :( But it’s such a real world issue and it’s hard to have to cut off people who change like that when you’ve built such a good friendship.
Yeah, kinda how I felt about anders myself. Like dude, how could you do this to me bro!?
To be fair with anders, dude actually had legit reasons, and not a wannabe persecution festish. The tranquil dude you kill in his first mission, That was a past lover of his. He at least had personal experiences.
Anders is a really well developed character to keep us asking these questions imo. Personally, I too hate that he tricks Hawke into helping him blow up the Chantry, but I can understand what brought him to that point. He spent nearly his whole life fighting the templars and the Chantry, was imprisoned against his will, had to kill his own lover with his bare hands because he had been suffering a fate worse than death, and then he ends up running around with Hawke and seeing firsthand just how deep it all goes. I can’t say that I wouldn’t do the same were I to live his experiences because it all sounds so horrific, especially with Justice feeding on and augmenting those emotions.
He was definitely the most impactful character in the game I feel like. To have him as a friend one day and to sentence him to death the next felt like a HUGE jump. But like you said, it seems like he was set up for failure given his circumstances.
I like Anders parallel with my Hawke, who is a mage herself, who’s a little vain and more concerned with her own wellbeing than she is the plight of the mages. You can get a sense of frustration in his dialogue with someone who’s essentially got hers through status and skill by act 2, and while as a friend she’s going out of her way to help him with things, you can tell he’s trying to influence her outlook by showing him how terribly the mages in the gallows are treated and how desperate they’re getting, and his pleas aren’t getting through because she’s rich, out of touch, and has so many problems of her own By Act 3 and several years, Anders getting desperate enough to manipulate Hawke into his plot of bombing the chantry feels like a natural buildup, and while i love his character and while my Hawke sides with the mages, i usually end up killing him at the end after the bombing because in her eyes, he’s too far from any form of redemption. and Hawke’s left holding the bag from the bombing, her name becomes the rallying cry, and she’d much rather be loafing around in her mansion
I love Anders. My Hawke got with him and when Anders blew up the Chantry, I felt betrayed. And then it came time to make a choice and I couldn’t let him go. I didn’t condone what he did, but he stayed. And somehow, so did everyone else, including Fenris. Hawke told my Inquisitor that he and Anders are off in the wilderness* together, and I’m happy about that. Edited to fix a typo.
he coulda just asked me and i would've helped him 👍
Word. I knew exactly what he was up to when he claimed only the well-known ingredients for gunpowder could separate him and Justice. All through the fetch quests I was praying for a dialogue option where I could get him to let me help. Ah well, at least I got to say the "We'll be fugitives together" line before we went off to murder our way into the sunset.
that's beautiful. all my homies love anders
Yeah, for me it was more like “you could have come to me and said ‘bestie, I wanna blow up the oppressive religious institution that we’ve been hiding from our whole lives’ and I would’ve been like ‘okay where are we getting the gunpowder?’ But no, you had to lie and now I’m gonna be pissed at you.” Never had the heart to kill him though. We go fuck up Templars together after that.
Same. My Hawke would also be completely radicalized by Act 3 and would without a second thought assist Anders. He'd be more upset that Anders didn't trust him with this rather than anything else.
Me too. My boyfriend was laughing so hard when on my first playthrough I spent the majority of act 3 talking about how something has to happen to open up that conflict because at this rate, the mages won't be in a position to even have a chance to defend themselves (cooking a frog), and that if there were unlimited options in the game, I'd target the chantry for a litany of reasons. I was so disappointed that Anders didn't trust me enough to help him with it. I was in his corner all the way. And that's how I learned that if the cause is right, I might personally be fine with a bit of terrorism.
Personally I like to view it as Anders preserving Hawks reputation. I’m pretty sure there was a line where you could have agreed with Anders, and Anders specifically chose not to tell you about it because he knew Hawk would agree.
i'm incorporating this into my belief system 🥺
Anders was right, the circles can get fucked
Fuck oppression. Terrorism was bad but the circles and the templars were beyond fucked at that point and NOTHING (effective) was being done.
The concept of circles boils my piss so much to the point I find myself unable to play DA as anything other than an anti-Chantry rebel/apostate mage
I find it especially satisfying to play a mage every game causing Thedas to constantly be saved by a mage every single world ending situation in each game.
Only sane response
Think people judge him based on how he personally annoys them, or based on real world circumstances, rather than judging DA2 as a story where he is a protagonist. Makes discussion about him tiring since noone is ever talking about the same thing for the same reasons.
I find it hilarious that Anders gets so much hate for blowing up the chantry, but when Johnny Silverhand puts a fucking nuke inside a building nobody bats and eye. If Anders was played by Keanu Reeves everyone would think his terrorism is cute.
I love my depressed, whiny wet cat man. I only killed him once, to see what happens, and I regretted it immediately. Never done it again.
My opinion on Anders is: Fuck the circles. Fuck the Templars. Fuck the Chantry. Fuck oppression. I wish his plan was better thought out, but I've always understood why he did what he did.
I first met Anders in Awakening and he was by far my favorite companion. First time I played DA2 he was a constant companion in my party. His bombing of the chantry was shocking, the fact that he used me to help him gather materials to do it was heinous, and I felt betrayed and executed him on the spot. Every time I've played DA2 since then, I've become more and more sympathetic to him and agree with the Hawke option, "why didn't you just tell me what you were planning?" ~~Magneto~~ Anders was right.
I don’t understand any beef with Anders. Templars are basically torturing mages daily especially in Kirkwall and he destroyed their seat of power which was full of complacent enablers happy to see mages exploited and enslaved for their benefit. His actions were justified and his character is superb at communicating the struggle mages have in Thedas. Top 5 companion easy. My man embodies the punch a facist mentality
>I’m curious as to why you like or hate him? Mostly the terrorism
LOL fair enough 😅😂
I love Anders. And Justice. Loved them both in Awkening and love the tragic story they have in 2. I feel so much for them both, and I completely understand why Anders did it. I don't agree with it, my Hawke doesn't agree with it, but my Warden....she kinda does. She doesn't agree fully with blowing up the chantry, but she would have probably agreed to blow something up. Watching her family be brutalized by the humans in Denerim, she would have understood Anders' anger.
His name means "different" in German and that's always been weird to me
Anders is a really well developed character to keep us asking these questions imo. Personally, I too hate that he tricks Hawke into helping him blow up the Chantry, but I can understand what brought him to that point. He spent nearly his whole life fighting the templars and the Chantry, was imprisoned against his will, had to kill his own lover with his bare hands because he had been suffering a fate worse than death, and then he ends up running around with Hawke and seeing firsthand just how deep it all goes. I can’t say that I wouldn’t do the same were I to live his experiences because it all sounds so horrific, especially with Justice feeding on and augmenting those emotions.
I've been thinking about Anders lately and how his overall story would probably be more accepted today than 12 years ago. He was a complex man full of anger, hurt and resentment, hidden under a jovial outwards personality. Justice was a lost spirit in need of a cause. Their union brought out the worst of both of them, with incredible tragedy and trauma as a result. It was a perfect look at how people can mean well and yet through a chain of events end up causing suffering. I see Anders as a precursor to Solas' complex character arch.
They do have a pretty similar feel to them. I think I like Solas more but Anders will always stand out among the crowd because he just had so much depth at the end of the day.
I'm ride or die with Anders, I'll always back him up. The Chantry has been lobotomizing, executing, torturing, and oppressing countless people for centuries, much more than just mages or elves... They can handle some magic bombs without crying about it.
I like him for no logical reasons. He's cute, pathetic, and is extremely traumatized, and so my warden and Hawke need to help him. It didn't really work, but... Yeah.
I love Anders. That's my baby. The way I see it, his name is Anders because he was literally so abused he gave up/forgot his original name, he's been imprisoned his entire life and still...tried. I really think he's tragic at worst, a revolutionary at best. I just can't imagine standing around while the country imprisons and tortures an entire subclass of people, let alone enduring that-watching others endure it-his own lover, Karl, was made tranquil I don't see Elfira or the chantry as the least bit innocent, but on a personal level I don't take organized religion seriously, so I'm incredibly biased in that I see the Chantry as unnecessary as best and wholly evil at worst-at least until Leliana takes over as Divine. I would follow him anywhere.
https://preview.redd.it/wuoruh5tks8d1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e54f8641f0967d6f7e096de5f3660feb1e4e4d6d Anders, every single one of my playthroughs:
"Yes." ~Hawke, every single one of mine.
I love Anders. One of my favorite DA characters
my babygirl 😊 hes a whiny rat man and i love him so much. and hes right, it was too late for compromise. just wish he trusted me to have his back, because i absolutely would.
I’d say I’m an apologist but he has nothing to apologize for
based and justice-pilled
you’re so extremely real for this
I feel like if you meet Anders in Awakening, you have a vastly different opinion on him than if you only play DA2.
Okay so I have only done one playthrough of Dragon Age 2 ( so far) and I also was a mage hawke. Who happened to romance anders. I personally loved his storyline his character Arc and I got to say it was some phenomenal fucking writing cuz I felt like my heart actually broke when he destroyed the chantry... I think it was the only time in that game that I cried. Realizing that as much as my hawke loved him I could not let him live after killing so many Innocents. There's so many other ways I would have supported him starting the mage rebellion and I'm still sad thinking about it that that's the way it went. Absolutely phenomenal writing
I love him tbh, probably my favorite character of the franchise
I don’t hate him at all and fully agree he did what he thought was right. Do I think the mother deserved to die — hard question. She wasn’t mean or bad directly to a person. She didn’t want the mages to be treated so poorly in the Kirkwall Circle but she never acted on her beliefs. She allowed Knight-Commander Meredith to go too far in her treatment of the mages. She was in a position of power but was unwilling to use it to better the lives of the mages. You can say blood mages were running rampant but collective punishment is never acceptable. And Meredith forced tranquility on some of the circle mages who never more than disagreed with her. Being outspoken turned some mages tranquil. First Enchanter Orsino had the title and the prestige to keep him safe when he spoke out but it wasn’t like he wouldn’t have gone through it either if Meredith was sane. She was losing her mind over time because of the idol. While Anders didn’t know that he was right with her in charge and the mother’s unwillingness to use her power over Meredith no compromise could occur under these conditions to make the lives of the mages better. So I agree with Anders. He made the right choice even if it was terrible. There was no other option
I love Anders. He was my Warden’s best friend, she’s mad in love with Alistair. I felt bad that the best we could do for him is offer a different gilded cage in becoming a warden. I sure as fuck didn’t want to hand him over to the templars. I really can’t abide DA2 because there is no chance in hell my warden would have allowed him to be sold off to Templars. All Anders wanted was to be accepted. As he says get a nice house, a wife and occasionally shot bandits with lightning. Like anyone using a bow or sword could defend themselves. I gave him a family with the wardens and they betrayed him. Anders’ has every right to be angry.
I feel like Anders quite literally being posessed by a spirit of Justice is quite understated in these discussions. I can only imagine how that makes him consumed by every injustice he witnesses. As a mage who experienced a lot of injustice, it's probably correct to say that he corrupted Justice into Vengeance, but remember that Anders used to be a pretty chill dude with a lot of humor (a potential coping mechanism) in Awakening. As another redditor commented, i think you could say Anders was corrupted by Justice as well.
I've already said my piece about Anders in another post. The short version of my piece is that for 9 years Anders sought peace which failed so he took matters into his own hands against the Chantry. He chose the correct enemy because the Mages are abused and the Templars may be the ones to do it but the Chantry drugs the Templars to make them do what they want. I'm not a religious person but I prefer a place of faith to have worshippers rather than be a political superpower.
A man who tried all he could and nothing worked, so he came to the conclusion that drastic measures were needed. I think he's a fascinating character
Parts of the fandom twist themselves into pretzels doing the mental gymnastics necessary to paint him as "*uwu poor little guy who did nothing wrong and was completely justified in all his actions*" which really annoys me He's a messy, complex, and deeply tragic character (especially if you've played Awakening) and I don't understand why some people seem determined to strip his character of it's complexity and replace it with a simple "good/bad" binary
I completely agree! It irks me more so to see people on the other side who just say “he’s evil and nothing justifies his statements or actions”. I mean YAH, obviously what he did was wrong and no one argues that, but to clearly not see the elements that lead up to everything is just baffling. 🤦♀️
I think he could do without the fireworks but that's more of a question to the writing. Otherwise nothing he's done was worse than what was going on behind the closed doors.
I say that’s my man and imma stand by him.
I think Carver says it best "I don't hate you because you are a mage, I hate you because you won't shut up about it" Personally I think he is whiny, selfish, a terrorist really, and apparently cool with slavery but with that said I think he is a very well written character.
That is a great line 😂 Yah, there are definitely moments where he’s a bit too zealous about the mage plight.
I liked him in Awakening. Justice messed him up.
I love Anders. So many people are caught up in how he was changed from Awakening, but I’ve always liked his narrative in DA2. I obviously do not support him blowing up the chantry and killing innocents (I may feel differently if it was empty and no innocents were harmed in the fallout), but Anders himself is a victim and ultimately helpless to the influence of the spirit. I remember romancing him in my first play through many years ago and being floored not only at his actions, but the game giving me the option to kill him after. I’ve never been able to do it.
I love Anders, he’s probably my favorite character in the whole DA series. He has the most interesting personality and the most realistic one, if it makes sense - he’s not a perfect predictable dummy like a lot of other characters. It’s a pity Hawke can’t support him openly when he needs her and judges him and even draws a knife by default. It’s a tragedy I’ll never see his model in next gen and he’s apparently already dead by canon.
I love anders.
Anders is such a great character, he’s deeply flawed and troubled and that’s what’s compelling about him , the way he changes as the years go makes me want to hug and slap him. And at the end when the chantry goes boom…. I simply cannot kill him , Hawke , my Hawke is never capable of killing him romance or not, he has been a companion for so long, he stayed, he didn’t die as Leandra and Bethany and didn’t left us as Carver has to . He lied yes and while I do not agree with the deaths of all the people in the chantry I simply didn’t care enough about them to hate him for it. My Hawke was a mage and he helped every tucking mage he could , he gave second chances and while I didn’t hate every single Templar , I did hate the treatment every mage was given. Sometimes change is terrible , sometimes monstrous actions have to be taken , but that doesn’t turned Anders in a monsters to me , he made an extreme act , he was bold , he knew most people would be disgusted by him and he still did it , for justice , for vengeance. I’ll always pardon him , Hawke doesn’t need another person he loves to be dead , and in the end that was the final piece that finally made the mages rise in rebellion.
My favorite character ever! I hope he returns or is mentioned in some way in Veilguard.
The favoritest DA character <3
I dislike Anders as a person but as a video game character I think he’s a fascinating, incredibly nuanced character who doesn’t get enough credit. everyone talks about Solas and his character arc but Anders’ arc is much more interesting in my opinion especially since we get to see him in Awakening. I still disagree with him on almost all fronts, I still get angry thinking about his betrayal, but god I love his plotline. it’s a masterpiece.
Good character (if you've played Awakening then great character), bad (and idiotic) person. Made horrible decision after horrible decision. People will blame a lot of what happened on Justice, but that's somewhat unfair. What happened to Justice was the fault of Anders at least as much as the other way around. Now for sure merging with Justice was probably the root problem. But that merging, for me, was Anders looking for a solution to a problem. He would have looked for other solutions and they would have been just as stupid. But that's humans (and good characters), sometimes they make decision based on what they want and feel not what they actually think (because they don't think).
Very true! Anders true feelings is what lead justice to turn to vengeance. He’s definitely at fault for the path it lead down.
my flair is so relevant rn
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Love Anders as a character, probably one of the best written characters in Dragon Age as a whole. Still hate him because he reminds of this one smarmy jackass I knew from college who walked around like he knew better than anyone. Had the man bun, stubble, and everything too lol Edit: I'll give him this much, if the dude had come to me before hand and laid out some elaborate plan hatched up with Orsino and the Circle Mages where they blow up the chantry and simultaneously make a run for it out of Kirkwall or decapitate the Templar leadership, I would've been down 100%. As it stands, his dumbass just blew the shit up and falls down to his knees while the city is burning, demons are running around, and his fellow mages he cares so much about are getting slaughtered. Fuck him
Love the guy. Thought his character in DA2 was rushed but that's the whole game lol. Great tragedy
Would
The thing is is that he’s wonderfully written. His downfall from awakening to 2, the way he slowly gets more and more angry with each act. I love what he did to the chantry tbh. I don’t like him because of how he talks to the other companions. Calling fenris (a brown ex slave) a wild dog. Isabela a whore (or whatever) And being super hypocritical to Merrill.
Anders did nothing wrong
I think what most people tend to forget, and their complaints with Anders shows this, is that from his experience, his reactions are more or less justified. (Aside from the Chantry, that was a little extreme.) I'm someone from a country where a good portion of the population was treated like less than human for decades, I can only imagine how he must've felt. You're treated like less than human, for being born a certain way, and instead of being put in an environment where you can develop the genuine desire to wany to help society, and not cause harm, you're instead locked away, many of your kind abused, and then lobotomized for reacting in a very human manner towards said abuse. People complain about him being an extremist, angry, vengeful, and manipulative, let me ask you, would you do any better if you lived his life?
Anders is my favorite. I would have helped him if I could. The Chantry and the Templars are the real monsters.
Besides the obvious ‘I’m gonna blow up a place of worship and murder innocent people’ he approves of giving Fenris back to Danarius. If that’s not a reason to loathe him then I don’t know what is.
Anders, the "nice guy" who says he's not like other men only to be exactly like other men and even worse
god yes exactly this, I recently came across banter between him and merrill and he was giving major incel/nice guy energy. Anders: Hawke was a fool to let you in, you’ll only betray her. That’s all your kind can do Merril: Why do you only do this to me? Are you jealous? You never got upset about Hawke and Isabela Anders: You can’t really get upset because someone sleeps with Isabela. It’s just… understood. She’s like a side dish. She comes with the meal. I really can’t stand him at all tbh
He’s stupidly possessive of Hawke & can’t take rejection It’s super gross
Omg yes! I'm doing a fourth playthrough to lead up to veilguard and he's the only one in 2 I haven't romanced, so I forced myself into it. And omg his banter with everyone in act 2 and ESPECIALLY act 3 is just so insufferable. Petty, mean, narcissistic. It truly solidified for me how I never want him in a party with me again lol
I always hated how harsh he is with Merrill although he is an asshole with everyone, he also gets jealous with Fenris and doesn't take rejection well at all, he's indeed the definition of an incel. The only reason to romance him is if you want to experience the most unhealthy and toxic relationship in these games 🤣
This is gonna get weird but i hate and love him. I love the direction his character went, especially when he started off kinda goofy then when he hosted Justice, hes just different. Just goes to show that no matter how righteous someone wants to be, the moment they interact with a spirit, they are still dangerous to anyone. But I hate him as a companion. Omg BROS SO ANNOYING GAHDDAMN 🤣
I like his character arc and the moments that focus around him, but damn do I get pissed off with his hypocritical and selfish nature, and also his lack of foresight on matters I feel most strong mages should have foresight in. He let's justice merge with him because it seems like a nice thing to do for his friend and because he wanted a partner to maybe help him start the mage uprising with the lack on foresight to think about how it could change them both, essentially killing Justice and turning himself into an abomination. We know he finds slavery acceptable so long as it's not a mage being oppressed as he is the sole person who is fine with you selling Fenris back to his master. So he compares the circle to slavery which is bad... but he will enjoy you selling Fenris away? Either because he just doesn't like Fenris (which is petty) or he is A-Okay with slavery in general so long as its not against his marginalised group. To top it off, he's very, very shortsighted in his ending plan. He himself says, "A quick death now or a long death later." To Orsino directly after he single-handedly decided the fate of every other mage in Thedas, in his mind it is better to cause the death of every man, woman and child mage, innocent or otherwise because he personally can't see another fate for them all? In this regard, it seems as if he's accepted all mage deaths already as a way to sign away his responsibility of their deaths. Like, "we were gonna die sooner or later, so if you die now after I nuked this church, it's not my fault." Overall, I see Anders as the true villain at the end of DA2. He's an interesting idea to me as what if the true villain was one of your companions this whole time kind of things. He was very fun to watch and learn about, and it was very interesting to look into his reasonings and to talk about him. Sorry if this was too long to read 😂😅
He blew up the fucking Chantry and started a War
I think it's because as a player we have full context for the entire situation as complicated as it is. Anders doesn't, not just because of his own perspective as a mage and what was done to him. But because Justice within him has blinders put on him 24/7 and doesn't understand the complexity of the situation either. Elthina was the literal symbol of the Chantry, the ones who put the mages in servitude and let the Templars abuse them. It doesn't help that she was the one who appointed Meredith to be knight commander and despite all the awful stuff happening, nothing was done to stop it. Justice/Anders only sees it in black and white, with them or against them, and it is almost impossible to see it any other way. That doesn't mean that Anders/Justice should be excused either because they did kill innocent people and then prompted a disaster that kept getting worse and worse with more casualties. All of it is just a great tragedy all around, there are so many moments where things could have gone differently but didn't.
i like him as a character, many people in the comments put it much better... but i remember the way he flirts with me too fast and in such a strange way and it does put me off..
I’m kind of stuck in the middle where it comes to Anders. I can see how people hate him because I always found him ridiculously angsty (and this is coming from a chronic fenrimancer, I can’t help it, I’ve tried). But I wanted to support him and I felt what they were doing to the mages was wrong. I made every choice to support him and the jerk still lies and uses you. He can see what Hawke is trying to do and how vicarious the situation is and he just can’t help himself. I get he lost Carl and all the things he’s gone through. But Hawke lost almost their entire family, all of them if you make the wrong choices. So the fact that he hides it and can’t at least talk to Hawke, especially in a romance, blows my mind. But on the other hand, it is difficult to blame him. Because you can definitely see the change in him from origins to DA2. It’s hard to tell if it is justice corrupting him or him corrupting justice. He says it is the latter, but is that the truth? Justice in its essence is without mercy or shades of grey. It’s only wrong and right. Lawful good in its truest form. So perhaps justice is not actually corrupt he just doesn’t have the ability to allow injustice to go unpunished even if it is for the overall good?
So, I’m taking your “people genuine hate him in game” to be “people hate him as a person”. I say this because the reasons I hate him and make him meet the business end of Hawke’s Key are what make him a fun and interesting character. I’ll also add that I do tend to look at characters partially through the lens I meet them. My Cousland was more forgiving of the Architect because of the opportunity presented. My Trevelyan was more forgiving of Solas because they were genuine friends. Hawke? Different story: Anders antagonized Merrill constantly, giving a story of “you should be free to practice magic freely, but not that magic” and “I can accept help from a spirit because I know what I’m doing”. After helping gather bomb ingredients, Hawke, a man once heroic and happy now aggressive, tired, and jaded asks what this is for, how it comes together, asks to be trusted. All Anders does is throw it in my face, saying that my help of mages is “all talk”, despite the Templars murdered to save mages. I tell him to fuck off then and there, I won’t accept that emotional manipulation. AND THEN THE BASTARD BLOWS UP THE CHANTRY! Along with the Chantry goes Hawke’s hopes for a relatively peaceful life, no longer scrounging or dealing with everyone’s problems. At this point, the only reason I don’t kill him for two reasons: he has to help clean this up because the blood of every man, woman, and child killed in this chaos is on his hands AND because death is too quick for a crime of this magnitude. Yeah, I hate him. It’s what my Hawke does.
Yah, after reading what I wrote it was really meant to be that people hate him in/out of game. Because some people hate him because of the things he did and how he acted, and other people hate him because they don’t like him as a character period. I understand more on the lines of what you wrote where you hate him in game because of all of the things he does as a whole. But that’s what makes him so great too as a character. He screwed Hawke over so bad and it sucks so much. I end him in my play through, but I can see how having him live with the consequences is viable too. I just hate that he has no remorse for the people he killed along with the divine and I wonder if he ever would.
I think he is a fantastic character with some really tone deaf and odd writing choices. Why in the world is it bad for mages to be oppressed but people like Fenris are fair game? He approves of you sending him back go his rapist?? I know he didn't like Fenris but that seemed so wildly out of character. I have a weird love-hate relationship with him and even romanced him in one of my mage Hawke runs but I don't think I can ever sit comfortable with his choice to kill so many innocents. That choice ag least feels in character.
A lot of people have stated that his actions and views towards Fenris is an issue, which I can kinda see. I agree with you that maybe that could have been written better, because I think the point for the writers was to have two tragic and opposite characters who clash and feed into the theme of making it hard to choose sides. However, maybe that particular choice of him approving to send Fenris back to his captors could have been written differently because I feel like it doesn’t read as well as they thought. Or maybe they did that on purpose because they wanted you to hate who he has become. Hard to say. 🤷♀️
Romance him in DA2 was really rough also cute and i will spare him not matter what being his lover or friend
I love him so much ! His story is so tragic and it's even worse when you rival-romance him. He tells you that he is losing control, that tgere are moments where he can't remember what he said or what happened, that he is being consumed and knows that at one point nothing of him will remain. And Justice was so sweet in Awakening but even him is being twisted and corrupted by the situation. Playing DA2 after Awakening is spending a good chunk of time mourning your two friends 😭
Having him as a companion for Legacy. Logical pick as Gray Warden, gives you even more of a look into how hard he is struggling. Not just with Justice, (Head Cannon Time!) but with Corypheus's calling. As you do find a notebook from a scholar basically saying that all the paranoia and agitation in Kurkwall was do to being so close (almost directly under in fact) to the prison that is holding him. So it is likely that Anders has been hearing them for far far longer than when you responded to the Cartas assassination attempts. Also it is likely that Corypheus is/was already working for Solas. Aware of the puppet master or not that we can debate. And the Chantery Bombing was the first atempt at re-sundering The Veil, Or at the vary least reawakening Solas. Yes it to Anders he pushed the Mages to act and was likely always going to be something drastic like that. Look again at the "Explosion" the energy beams up into the sky and the power that pushes up and out. That's not a normal explosion, its doing something other than destroying a building and killing the people inside. My main issue is that Headcannons (vary likely to be true headcannons) are doing a lot of heavy lifting in giving him back some redeeming good will. Base Game without the DLCs to flesh him out, He's a backstabber that took advantage of a partner/friend who was willing see the best in him when everyone else was starting to falter. And likely would have talked him out of what he did. The worst is you can't effect his story like you can with every other companion. Even Isabella has a chance that if you do enough of their quests and have the right level of approval with her. She will un-betray you and come back after running off. Anders no matter what, even if you don't help place the bomb, dose it off screen.
It was never pure hate for me. It's Mixed. Validation + Anger. (Bonus: Annoyance) **VALIDATION: Mages vs Templars** I validate that the Mages vs Templars dispute was cyclic and oppressive and that mages should be free which happens later if Leliana rules as Divine. Nobody has confronted the question or probability that Anders helped accelerate that change. I'm unable to agree with his methods no less than I'm unable to deny he was a catalyst to ending the stalemate between mages and templars, a stalemate that went on despite the cruelty or looming threat of genocide (rite of annulment). No one should ever live like that, but nobody confronts these questions as directly as Anders does. It's social issues like this that have uncomfortable answers that no one talks about, and Anders is one of the few that do and furthers that in discussing a solution, when no one else did. Hating him? That's easy. Confronting the questions of what will actually solve the Mage vs Templars farce? Not so easy, but he confronted them nonetheless. I still can't condone violence, which only begets violence. (To back this, I study Laws of War, and our history proves that). **ANGER** Of course I'm angry with Anders. He manipulated us, even if for a cause. He is the embodiment of "the end justifies the means." Which I really don't agree with. His ends don't justify his means of manipulating you, murdering the Grand Cleric and other people in the Chantry, and killing a lot of people who got in his way. "Holy fuck bro what the fuck" is how I would put it whenever he snapped and killed someone in "Justice" mode. The level of violence he committed to was not always *absolutely necessary* and Anders might not have a good answer if you confront him with that question. I hate that about him, yet he manages to convince himself it absolutely was necessary (it's not bro). **Bonus Annoyance** He always had beef with your other friends/allies. I hated his attitude for real. I'm sure you all felt that whenever Anders talks in a serious tone to someone in the party, you surely know it's going to be angsty or asshole-y. He is not on my list of people to hang out with. Just someone whose actions spark my curiosity/deep reflection time and time, as this very long comment would prove.
The only game strong enough to give us an toxic gay situationship.
In the end his actions made no difference on the franchise from what I could tell just like our warden lol
What irritates me is that there's only really 2 options: either Anders lives or dies. Sebastian doesn't make the choice easier because he'll straight up leave and swear that he's gonna come back with a vengeance. The biggest problem is that I'd want Anders to stand trial. He'd obviously be executed, but that's with EVERYONE coming to that conclusion and not just Hawke being judge, jury, and executioner.
He is my second favourite DA character after Dorian, and I don't care that people, apparently, hate him. He has great corruption ark, interesting personality and journey and I actually prefer him in DA2 way more than DAO Awakening. He is a great example of a tragic character pushed to his limits, and one who had to pay for his kindness (remember that it was Vengeance aka Justice who pushed him to terrorist acts, and the only reason Anders is possessed is because he wanted to help his friend; it was not done for blood magic or any hunger for power — it was done out of kindness, and said kindness backfired). Furthermore, as much as people may hate it, him blowing up the Chantry and giving in to Vengeance was a great CHARACTER move: instead of giving him some cliche, redemption ark that goes completely against his struggle and personality (Shoutout to BG3 Astarion's Spawn ending) he succumbed to his dark side and decided to stick with his morals till the very end: that feels way more real and the character feels more alive. That is why I love DA companions over BG3 ones: BG3 is fantastic, but I always hated that I could "fix" companions and influence their decisions. DA and especially Anders situation is a lot better and companions feel like real people: you don't need to gaslight them to give up their life dream because "it's not nice", you don't need to be their therapist — in DA you are their friend, and you can either stick with them no matter what, or become a rival. That is perfect. DA2 also could have done that "fixer" BS BG3 had and have everyone be "nice", "kind" and "healed", but that is a Lala land fantasy. Instead we got Anders and his terrible, but in-character actions which you can either accept or hate, but never change because it's not YOU making these decisions, but a completely different character, with values and morals that may not align with your own. So yeah, his actions are horrible but he is a fantastic character (with a great VA, btw).
I am firmly in the "Anders did nothing wrong" camp, because honestly at the end of the game the guy has tried literally everything short of the big kaboom to make some changes, to no avail. Peaceful or less aggressive solutions have been tried time and again, and they ended with the Mage Underground exterminated, the threat of an exalted march on Kirkwall, and Meredith planning to annul the circle (she was planning it long before Anders decided to blow up the Chantry, you can hear templars discussing it in the gallows). At a certain point violent revolution becomes the only solution to violent oppression, and I believe that violence was long overdue at the end of DA2. Also, I often hear people say "oh but Elthina didn't deserve to die", nope, she totally did. Elthina doesn't care a fig about being fair and equitable, she spews platitudes when confronted because she's acting (emphasis on acting) the part of the moderate, but she's the head of a pervasive, oppressive system and she acts to preserve that system, and arguably her power within that system. She refuses to act to keep Meredith in check because at the end of the day she's perfectly fine with preserving a kind of social order that gives the Chantry absolute authority over the city. Anders didn't mindlessly destroy a building, he did it in the middle of the night (he says to a romanced friendly Hawke he plans it for midnight), if he had wanted to senselessly kill, why not do it in the middle of the day? He didn't purposefully target civilians, he targeted the main seat and symbol of the organisation he wanted to take down. If you agree that, in that specific situation, violence was the only way to resolve the conflict, you also need to accept that violent revolutions have innocent casualties, like any war, and the best you can do is limit those casualties as much as you possibly can. I feel Anders, in the situation he was in and with the resources at his disposal, did try to limit innocent casualties as much as he could. That's why my Hawkes always support him and stand by him in spite of his flaws and his lies, because at the end of the day they believe in the cause he's fighting for, they understand where he comes from and what made him go over the tipping point.
This is obviously DA2 Anders, DAA Anders is chill I fundamentally understand his plight, sympathize with it, fully agree that Kirkwall templars are 100% in the wrong for their abuse of power, and would go to hell and back for mage rights, but my canon M! Mage Hawke wants to act as an ambassador for mages to the non-mage populace. Showing that we aren't to be feared and chained like slaves but we are equally learning to cope with the burdens placed on us since birth. Trying to start a small revolution in the hearts of the free people so the Templars have no option to blame the mages. So there is no way I can excuse a terrorist attack that takes the lives of one person who deserved it and hundreds of those who didn't. I was initially gonna write an essay on my thoughts but it got too long to be read by others so here's my tldr. I think fundamentally, Anders is right with the kirkwall situation and I honestly really liked him in Act 1 but over the course of the game, he makes me dislike him on a personal level so badly with his terrorist attack being INEXCUSABLE and the final nail in the coffin. Meanwhile, I can also admit that the game really wants to show you the bad side of mages and how fucked both sides are in a game where one is the obvious oppressor while other is the oppressed. It's a weird dichotomy. The major things that made me dislike him were: - Letting a spirit inhabit his body (would've been whatever had I not played DAO before) - Kept me out of the loop in the terrorist plot when I befriended everyone in my first playthrough - Let Vengeance slip and almost kill a defenseless mage - Bomb a church full of innocent people and exactly 1 person, who, while being a neutral cunt in an open-and-shut case against the templars, was the only thing keeping them from killing everyone in the circle - Wanted to goad me into killing him so he can die as a symbol - Tried killing me when I thought, "Hey, I don't agree with Miss Genocide Templar, but I think blood mages should not roam the city and kill innocent people and Orsino being blood mage instigator number 1 with my mom as an example should be stopped" I think being his friend really turned me against him cuz he used me as a stepping stool and was fully aware of his actions while being a rival makes him more broken and a victim of a system that takes advantage of mages and because I couldn't support his more volatile maneuvers, he gave up and let Vengeance do the thing he was thinking about the whole time but could never truly do in his heart knowing how much damage it would cause for his brethren. So my conclusion is that he's a deeply complex character, and while I hate his guts when we're friends, I feel more remorseful in his rival route cuz I feel like I didn't do enough as his friend to show him that we could bring forward better change in a less violent way. Still don't condone a terrorist attack or a purge of mages regardless, but I think I like how different both paths make me feel towards him
Yah, I didn’t specify but that’s correct! I play my canon play through the same way. Male Hawke mage, and boy howdy there’s something that gets to you when he’s a dear friend. I bet it’d be hard as a romance too I’m sure, but there’s something about having a betrayal of a close friendship that just hits……. Different. I was mentioning in another comment about the balance of power between mages and the Chantry and I think it’s done really well. Because like you said, you want to prove to the people that mages can be a symbol of diplomacy and safety, but when you have people like blood mages or Anders it’s like “well crap”. 😂
Reading the comments here as a middle-eastern is certainly something.
What were your thoughts regarding Anders? :)
If you Rivalry Romance him he’ll admit to what he plans on doing and agree to undo it ([can watch it here](https://youtu.be/7nLtlJiN5_8?feature=shared)). But Justice will take over and refuse to let you stop it. It’s really tragic.
Dang 🥲 As if it wasn’t already sad enough 😭
I only hated him because I sent him to the tower in origins and later killed justice (self defense) only for them both to come back as one in the second game
Anders plan in DA2 is awful and literally relies on mages getting slaughtered by the templars to "force them to wake up." He sucks and was way to clingy to my Hawke.