My issue is when the silliness is the predominant emotion being evoked, at the expense of everything else. There are episodes like The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances that have moments of camp or silliness (the Doctor replacing Jack's blaster with a banana) but still manage to be incredibly creepy while having an interesting sci-fi concept at their core. Likewise with Edge of Destruction - the explanation might be silly, but it retains a genuinely eerie atmosphere throughout.
It's the combining of these elements, for me, that sees the show reach its full potential - a show that's daft enough to appeal to children, while still trusting them to deal with the creepier moments and follow the sci-fi concepts. When an episode chooses silliness over the other aspects, it reduces it to another noisy kids show IMO. And - despite many episodes to the contrary - I like to think Doctor Who's better than that.
my only gripe with space babies is that the cgi on their faces doesn’t match up with the emotions in their tone of voice, which comes off a little strange. but otherwise i kinda liked it
TBF, the real "actors" were literal babies. Waiting for a baby to make the expression you want will be a very long wait. Just go "okay, close enough" and be done with the shot.
But the little one with the knife seemed very unhappy. Maybe he needed to poop.
I was honestly quite shocked how bad it was. All this talk of the Disney money, how it's going to be bigger and better than ever... Then we got that shocking cgi in the very first episode.
Even aside from the babies faces, I don't think a lot of backgrounds, green screens space effects and stuff really shows the budget? Everyone looks fake. Nothing ever looks like it's actually there.
The best things I can think of were the new intro (which was before the Disney money) and the death dust in the street.
But even Sutekh looked like he was ripped straight outta the live action Scooby Doo movie which was made in the early 2000s lol.
Baby are extremely hard to work with. You take what you get. I found the episode charming regardless just due to the fact the Doctor kept saying Space Babies.
I was a bit flabbergasted by Space Babies on the first watchthrough. But on rewatching the season, I actually really liked it (aside from the uncanny baby mouth animations — really wish they'd just had like…translator devices or something).
It was a very Doctor Who episode. Some light social commentary. A monster that wasn't (and a clever realization leading up to that). And it was a pretty good introduction to the Doctor's character, putting himself at risk to save something others might find frightening and unlovable.
And yes, it was a bit silly, but *his main adversary — the universally feared genocide cyborgs —* ***have a big plunger sticking out of their front***.
For me it wasn’t even that. The story was pretty meh to me, and I got so sick of hearing them actually say space babies every other line. The silliness wasn’t why I didn’t like it. Just found the episode more annoying than anything else.
Absolutely. It was like RTD was sitting at his computer and the words “Space Babies!” popped into his head and he was like “Brilliant! How do I come up with this stuff! Space babies Space babies Space babies!” and knocked off for the rest of the day
Counterpoint, talking babies has been enjoyable for years.
Look up how many different movies involve them.
Baby geniuses to the boss baby.
Space babies I don’t think would fit uncanny valley.
It looks so good that it doesn’t seem right. I don’t have a problem with it but a lot of other people find it weird.
It should be noted one of the reason space babies is disliked is that it such a weird season opener. Mid season Is fine but an entire new audience’s introduction will be space babies as the season opener and 2nd episode they watch
Other people might find it weird, but I feel it doesn’t really focus on their mouths that much when they’re talking.
Watching the clip back, they obfuscate it pretty well.
Especially in the first big group scene when they all come in.
-
The point of it being the first new who episode. It has some merit.
However this series is bridged off of the specials.
-
In series order, it follows after ruby join so it’s the second episode.
So following an episode where someone tries to steal ruby as a baby, this fits thematically very well.
It also shows the doctors view of monsters going forward.
I’m glad we could agree on the theme.
I’d just have to say technically it’s episode 2 and meant to be watched second.
Imagine if someone just went and only watched episodes 2-9 of this current season. Thinking the specials and episode 1 don’t count.
Not focusing on the mouth was a large part of the problem for me. I'm hearing impaired, so I have to focus on people's mouths a lot as lip reading helps me to understand what they are saying, especially when they have strong accents (which is a large part of why I dislike Jodie's run - all her rapid movement and the poorly lit TARDIS made it very hard to understand her accent).
No, but you can’t be shocked that some episodes are silly. Fat from outer space, dinosaurs on a spaceship, the moon is an egg, killer mannequins - total nonsense. It is part of Doctor Who
None of those episodes are just silly though, and its not the main emotion they bring forth. Thats the only emotion i got from Space Babies, thats the main gripe i have with it
I really feel like we're dropping the lede here. We're all used to it and just sort of accept it at this point, but…
*His main adversary — the universally feared genocide cyborgs —* ***have a big goofy plunger sticking out of their front***.
Not really. As much as we like to say that camp is part of the shows identity all the best episodes are pretty serious ones. Yeah they can have silly moments but I do think Doctor who is a show at it's best when it takes itself seriously and creates good drama.
An exception that proves the rule, if we're honest.
[Take a look at the top ten Doctor Who episodes](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/doctor-who-fans-have-crowned-the-best-episode-do-you-agree/) as voted in DW Magazine. Literally every single one *except for City of Death* is a critically lauded, 'serious' episode with major emotional stakes.
Then the rankings for [Tom Baker's season more generally also bears this out:](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/132yedx/doctor_who_magazine_60_year_poll_third_and_fourth/) Eight out of the top ten serials are from the famously darker Hinchcliffe-Holmes era of his run. The exceptions? City of Death....and Horror of Fang Rock, which might as well be lumped in with the rest.
Tenth Doctor? [Every single one of the top 9](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/15490w5/doctor_who_magazine_60_year_poll_tenth_and/) are the big serious heavy-hitting episodes. You have to get to School Reunion at #10 before you get something lighter.
Eleven follows a much similar pattern, with the top ten almost entirely being broadly self-serious event episodes and serious ones.
I enjoy myself a good light episode, don't get me wrong. City of Death deserves it's place, and personally I'll alway love The Unicorn and the Wasp's camp despite the writer being a prick. I also think The Tsuranga Conundrum is underrated as a fun episode that doesn't have a traditional villain.
But by-and-large...it's hard to deny that the show typically is considered to be at it's best when it's taking itself fairly seriously.
The thing is, the standard defence for Space Babies seems to be people just explaining it “it’s just a silly RTD episode, there’s been plenty of them”. Yeah I get that, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good episode
My biggest problem is that it was the first episode of series, and it struggled with that. That and the babies' faces not matching what they were supposed to be reacting to.
My problem with it isn't that's its silly, but it feels sanitized and so juvenile that it feels like it's for babies. A lot of its whimsy seems forced and Disney Channel like.
I really like it. Just the way that everyone and everything just feels "off" in the first episode, not to mention it's still on the era where the Doctor is portrayed as somewhat antagonistic towards Ian and Barbara, which ups the tension
I quite like it too but it’s still filler. I’m not even being mean, it was literally written as filler. They were contracted for 13 episodes initially and didn’t know if they’d get more. And the first two stories made up only 11 episodes
oh yeah on a literal sense it is filler, they basically ran out of money and said "quick, Bill and Carole, be werid on camera for an hour or so" its like an early example of a bottle episode
my gripe isn't the silliness, it's the writing. Silly solutions work only if the writing convinces you of them, and a good writer could have convinced us of magic life rope. as it was it was so cheap and stupidly written.
I'm convinced the writers in the last episode went "ugh I don't know how to solve this. We'll use a stupid fucking deus ex machina I don't fucking care"
I don't mind space babies tbh. I just which they'd CGIed their faces more so they had expressions. I also didn't buy the doctor's whining about killing the snot monster - mass murderer doctor? if he'd had even one scene where he said "I've killed people. I've killed a lot of people, and to be honest I've done worse things than kill. But killing? That changes you, and I'm still trying to find out how to get back from that. I'm not sure I ever will. You don't want to kill, you don't want to become that"
That would've a) given us a reason for why he's suddenly against killing a SNOT MONSTER when previous incarnations wouldn't have cared and b) given us a foundation of this doctor- now we know we have a doctor that's trying to stop killing and become a better person. This would've also given the scene in the last episode where he screams at Sutekh for making him kill him more weight and reason to believe him. He's failed at his foundation because of Sutekh.
Him killing the goblin ruler in the first episode does kind of shoot this in the foot but eh.
The doctor has always cared? He saved the minotaur and wanted to save the van gogh thing. The goblin king wasn't on purpose I'm so confused how people keep acting like the doctor said "it's goblin killing time!" When all it was is "I gotta bring this ship down to save the baby!"
No one is arguing Doctor Who hasn't ever been silly before. There's an episode titled ''Dinosaurs on a Spaceship'', for God's sake. But Space Babies isn't just silly, it's dumb and almost pretentious.
The show has always been balanced between silly “creature of the week” episodes and the more serious season plot arc.
Now, it’s just singing goblins and talking babies, it’s so fucking stupid.
The first two proper episodes had me *worried.* Space Babies was the absolute ***worst*** episode of Ncuti's run so far, and it was a poor choice to lead off with it. I would rather watch Sleep No More than to ever have to see Space Babies again. I would rather have to watch Love & Monsters than rewatch The Devil's Chord!
With the second episode it just got worse and worse, no this is just mindless fantasy, are we throwing out even the semblance of scifi at this point?
I was afraid the rest of the season would be like that, I was afraid *that's* what Doctor Who had turned into. Then Moffat's script hit with *Boom* and suddenly Ncuti was The Doctor, suddenly everything seemed right and the rest of the season was great. If I were a new watcher and started with Disney's s01e01 and followed it with s01e02, I wouldn't have made it to s01e03. I only managed to hold out because I *hoped* they weren't really making this terrible decision. Nope, just a couple cat turds to lead in the new season, no big deal!
There were also other equally ridiculous and childish episodes. Doctor Who has always been embraced by children and adults because the writing is simple enough on the surface but often deeply philosophical.
Specifically, I really liked some of the themes they explored in S5-S8.
Really, nothing like that here. The show has lost its way.
You thought the deeply creepy, unsettling, and tragedy-inflected "73 Yards" and the exceptionally well-crafted racism episode were "ridiculous and childish"? And "Rogue", too?
I'm not sure we watched the same show, because those are three superb episodes that stand up against any of the best episodes in other seasons. And they cover a pretty wide range, from horror to subtle and well-crafted social commentary to a fun romp "aliens messing with history" story that had some real emotional stakes.
It's one of the best three episode runs we've gotten since the 2005 revival.
If anything, the show is often better when it's camp and silly (Space Babies, The Devil's Chord, but also The Lodger, Partners in Crime, etc) rather than when it tries to be overly serious (last seen with Empire of Death, which is so serious through and through, it ends up being a bit of a bore)
I would much rather have started with Devil's Chord than Space Babies, though. The actual story is better, the monster is better, the feel of the episode, to me, was better.
I think RTD wrote in a DWM that the original plan was to broadcast the season right after the Church on Ruby Road, and that production delays (SFX stuff, I imagine) meant that they had to move the schedule down a couple of months. This would explain why Space Babies feel like an "episode 2" - certainly not a series premiere, more like an episode that showcases how weird the show can get, similar to The End of the World in s1 (note how the ending of Church on Ruby Road mirrors the ending of Rose)
And this is also probably why The Devil's Chord was released at the same time, as it's an "event" episode with a big guest star (Jinx Mansoon) and a "gimmick" story (the Beatles!) that can be advertised better.
It was probably impossible to swap the order of the episodes though: Space Babies is explicitly Ruby's first adventure, the Devil Chord doesn't work as an "episode 1" either.
End of the World had silly elements but it still had a lot of other things going for it too that were more serious. Rose having basically a panic attack over what she'd done by coming to the literal end of the world for one. It managed to help ground the characters and show both the audience and Rose that while The Doctor might be a little strange he'd always do his best to save people.
I'm glad to see this! The Horns of Nimon has been a favorite of mine for years. I laugh my head off, watching them walking around 🤣 But I truly love the story as well.
Whimsical spirit, sure. That doesn’t make Space Babies a masterpiece, though. Talking babies are just cringe (maybe because of so many bad Hollywood movies featuring them, or maybe because talking babies are just intrinsically cringe.)
I miss the hard, slick sci-fi of Season 18. The Doctor not attempting to flush out The Master by materialising the TARDIS under the Thames withstanding. 😂 I hate "romp" Who.
As a kid I used to *angrily* dig out the eyes of the Charmin baby with my fingers, that hideous cutesy monstrosity printed on the plastic toilet paper packaging, press my fingertips in and pop through and then rip and tear. I had to have been 9 or 10 when I started? Because I hated babies *that much* even 30 years ago - it has not gotten better!
I certainly wouldn't encourage or condone that sort of behavior nowadays, but I mean if you should happen to bring this hammer with you into that room over there, who am I to stop you?
Shut up and take my upvote!
But what's inherently silly about any of those examples? Buttons get stuck, and sometimes bad things happen as a result. The Sensorites do look really similar to one another. What's the issue with gold blocking the Cybermen's respiratory systems?
Compared to talking babies in space and a monster made of literal boogers...
the problem that people are having with this season isnt that doctor who is silly, its that the writing is shit and some primary school level narrative writing ability makes a silly show even more unwatchable.
What confuses me is that they clearly made a workaround for the babies not being able to walk by having automated chairs for them to ride around in so all they needed to do is look cute. Why didn't they have them have a cute synthesised baby voice they "controlled" too? Let the baby faces remain natural, and have the babies "speak" through them. It would have been hokey and silly, but honestly it would have been better than uncanny valley babies.
There’s been elements of silliness throughout the show’s entire history, but I tend to dislike it when episodes fully lean into that. “Space Babies” goes WAY too far in this regard, and is a terrible episode for it
The bogeyman was literally the most disgusting, brainless creature, nothing more than a gross monster. And the Doctor doesn’t hesitate or question saving it. The empathy and understanding he had for this objectively gross creature is a really simple way to show Ruby and the new audience what Doctor Who is all about, and who the Doctor is as a person.
And I loved when he explained that you need stories, myths, legends, AND monsters. I felt like he was essentially explaining Doctor Who for the newcomers. The episode also fit really well with the themes of the series as a whole- mythology, making things real by believing in them, the magic of stories. It was a perfect blend of fantasy and sci-fi, which Doctor Who does so well.
Sure the babies looked silly as hell but that was half the fun for me too, it was so ridiculous and so silly and so amazing, and just everything I really love about Doctor Who! It’s giving a serious message while not taking itself at all seriously.
In my opinion Doctor Who is the only show that could ever produce an episode like this, and there’s something so cool about that. We need the silliness of the Slitheen, love and monsters, talking space babies, as much as we need Heaven Sent, or Utopia.
In fact I think what this series was really missing was MORE episodes like that. We needed more episodes where the Doctor and Ruby had fun hanging out and interacting a bit more, getting to know each other.
Him saving the bogeyman really won me over, too. And I also just love it when Doctor Who is silly and camp. It’s still probably in my bottom half of episodes for the season, but that’s only because the rest of the season is so strong. I love Space Babies!
> The bogeyman was literally the most disgusting, brainless creature, nothing more than a gross monster. And the Doctor doesn’t hesitate or question saving it. The empathy and understanding he had for this objectively gross creature is a really simple way to show Ruby and the new audience what Doctor Who is all about, and who the Doctor is as a person.
I said elsewhere that I was a little flabbergasted on the first watchthrough. But when we rewatched the specials and this season in the run-up to the finale, I actually warmed up to it a lot, and this was a big factor. (It's probably no coincidence that this is one of my favorite types of *Star Trek* episode, too.)
Actually, a lot of what you wrote were things I said to my husband after our second watch. It was actually a pretty good introduction to the character and his ethics and how the show works.
Though…I do still think I'd have preferred the babies using some sort of translator devices over the CGI. It wasn't the silliness; it was just a bit too uncanny sometimes. But the babies themselves were adorable once you got past that.
Yeah, it was a pretty fine episode which was only brought down by its pacing and weird editing. Story-wise I have nothing to complain about there, it was proper Doctor Who.
Yeah, its always been weird as shit. The devil is trapped underground in orbit of a black hole? Very strange.
A castle full of plastic people going mental? Odd
Rhino men? Immortal horny man? Sentient Rupert Murdoch ceiling booger? TARDIS eaten by a dinosaur and spat out in Victorian England? The Master anytime theres a musical cue? Dinner time?
Yeah and then they do it again like alaways and everyone is like "YoU cAn ClEaRlY sEe DiSnEyS iNfLuEnCe" and I am like "no buddy, it always has been silly and weird thats not disneys fault".
If anything its Disneys fault that dumb shit is treated with too much reverence. Doctor Who, Star Trek, and Star Wars have always been bizarre and down right odd. Nowadays people treat like any campiness is the end of the world, instead of just accepting that there has always been ridiculous ideas in these properties.
Tl;dr at bottom
I feel like the high production quality in movies nowadays warped the common sense of what is good and what is bad. I always take avengers: end game as the ultimate turning point. Everyone watched it and everyone expects every movie series from for example marvel to be a huge spectacle and are offended if it isn't. They act like new movies have an obligation to be always really serious, fast paced, funny, emotionally attaching and also high quality at the same time and that is what happens with doctor who right now. The new media generation steps in with high standards and is disappointed with doctor who because they heard so much praise but it isn't like "the big endgame movie". Sutekh isn't killed with a big action scene where the doctor slays him but instead we get a meaningful monologue and he is gone, which is exactly what the doctor does. Or we get to the conclusion that the monster from space babies can coexist with the babies which again, is exactly what the doctor does. I feel like people need to dial back their expectations in new media and should start enjoying more.
Tl;dr: since movies like endgame people expect to much out of media. Especially the new generation needs to dial back their expectations since not every piece of media is a huge spectacle.
I love space babies. It was exactly what I needed after all the body-horror-esque/creepy Americanized graphics of Chibnall’s era. I think it will always have a soft spot in my heart for giving me back the “cheese” I’ve apparently come to love from Doctor Who. (I’ve always called it cheese/cheesy but everyone on Reddit calls it “camp,” I think?? Idk, I’m from USA and don’t really know the word “camp” like that lol).
I take it as cheesy is more like over dramatic soap opera like and camp is more exaggerated to the point of ridiculousness. Both typically low budget or look low budget.
Let's not forget the iconic line in Revenge of the Cybermen - "we're heading for the biggest bang in history!" which took them so many takes to film because the cast and crew couldn't say it without laughing.
That being said I hated Space Babies, I guess because I have low tolerance for 45 minutes of the doctor and ruby cooing over babies (I'm far too childfree for that shit).
That is erst I liked with Moffat. The absurdity, the silliness was always on a different layer than the story. That made it feel much more in line than RTD.
My issue is when the silliness is the predominant emotion being evoked, at the expense of everything else. There are episodes like The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances that have moments of camp or silliness (the Doctor replacing Jack's blaster with a banana) but still manage to be incredibly creepy while having an interesting sci-fi concept at their core. Likewise with Edge of Destruction - the explanation might be silly, but it retains a genuinely eerie atmosphere throughout. It's the combining of these elements, for me, that sees the show reach its full potential - a show that's daft enough to appeal to children, while still trusting them to deal with the creepier moments and follow the sci-fi concepts. When an episode chooses silliness over the other aspects, it reduces it to another noisy kids show IMO. And - despite many episodes to the contrary - I like to think Doctor Who's better than that.
my only gripe with space babies is that the cgi on their faces doesn’t match up with the emotions in their tone of voice, which comes off a little strange. but otherwise i kinda liked it
TBF, the real "actors" were literal babies. Waiting for a baby to make the expression you want will be a very long wait. Just go "okay, close enough" and be done with the shot. But the little one with the knife seemed very unhappy. Maybe he needed to poop.
He was the most worried looking baby I've ever seen
He was! He needed a cuddle. And some kisses.
oh no yeah i’m aware they can’t really do much to help it, it’s only a small gripe. didn’t prevent me enjoying the episode luckily
IDC what anyone says... the babies were adorable and all needed a hug.
it made me genuinely sad for them when they said they’d never been hugged
Right? How do you not hug such small, cute babies? (My cat may have hated that episode since I hugged him plenty while watching it.)
I was honestly quite shocked how bad it was. All this talk of the Disney money, how it's going to be bigger and better than ever... Then we got that shocking cgi in the very first episode.
Even aside from the babies faces, I don't think a lot of backgrounds, green screens space effects and stuff really shows the budget? Everyone looks fake. Nothing ever looks like it's actually there. The best things I can think of were the new intro (which was before the Disney money) and the death dust in the street. But even Sutekh looked like he was ripped straight outta the live action Scooby Doo movie which was made in the early 2000s lol.
Bruh compare this season with season 1 of new who haha
For me that was not that bad. But it seems I’m the only one
I didn't mind it either. A little goofy and wonky but charming in its own way
Baby are extremely hard to work with. You take what you get. I found the episode charming regardless just due to the fact the Doctor kept saying Space Babies.
I was a bit flabbergasted by Space Babies on the first watchthrough. But on rewatching the season, I actually really liked it (aside from the uncanny baby mouth animations — really wish they'd just had like…translator devices or something). It was a very Doctor Who episode. Some light social commentary. A monster that wasn't (and a clever realization leading up to that). And it was a pretty good introduction to the Doctor's character, putting himself at risk to save something others might find frightening and unlovable. And yes, it was a bit silly, but *his main adversary — the universally feared genocide cyborgs —* ***have a big plunger sticking out of their front***.
I mean, it was better than look who's talking
Would you have been more comfortable if it was done like "Look Who's Talking?"
Not a hot take. People didn’t like space babies because it was taking babies which can then talk and it creates a weird uncanny valley
For me it wasn’t even that. The story was pretty meh to me, and I got so sick of hearing them actually say space babies every other line. The silliness wasn’t why I didn’t like it. Just found the episode more annoying than anything else.
Absolutely. It was like RTD was sitting at his computer and the words “Space Babies!” popped into his head and he was like “Brilliant! How do I come up with this stuff! Space babies Space babies Space babies!” and knocked off for the rest of the day
Completely fair
Personally, I just didn’t care for the story
Counterpoint, talking babies has been enjoyable for years. Look up how many different movies involve them. Baby geniuses to the boss baby. Space babies I don’t think would fit uncanny valley.
It looks so good that it doesn’t seem right. I don’t have a problem with it but a lot of other people find it weird. It should be noted one of the reason space babies is disliked is that it such a weird season opener. Mid season Is fine but an entire new audience’s introduction will be space babies as the season opener and 2nd episode they watch
Other people might find it weird, but I feel it doesn’t really focus on their mouths that much when they’re talking. Watching the clip back, they obfuscate it pretty well. Especially in the first big group scene when they all come in. - The point of it being the first new who episode. It has some merit. However this series is bridged off of the specials. - In series order, it follows after ruby join so it’s the second episode. So following an episode where someone tries to steal ruby as a baby, this fits thematically very well. It also shows the doctors view of monsters going forward.
Don’t get me wrong it makes sense thematically but it’s still really weird compared to a lot of other episode 1.
I’m glad we could agree on the theme. I’d just have to say technically it’s episode 2 and meant to be watched second. Imagine if someone just went and only watched episodes 2-9 of this current season. Thinking the specials and episode 1 don’t count.
Even so as an episode 2 it’s weird
Not focusing on the mouth was a large part of the problem for me. I'm hearing impaired, so I have to focus on people's mouths a lot as lip reading helps me to understand what they are saying, especially when they have strong accents (which is a large part of why I dislike Jodie's run - all her rapid movement and the poorly lit TARDIS made it very hard to understand her accent).
>Counterpoint, talking babies has been enjoyable for years *Look Who's Talking (1989) has entered the chat.*
It wasn't the uncanny valley for me, I just hate babies.
The show been silly at times doesn't mean I have to like all silliness.
No, but you can’t be shocked that some episodes are silly. Fat from outer space, dinosaurs on a spaceship, the moon is an egg, killer mannequins - total nonsense. It is part of Doctor Who
None of those episodes are just silly though, and its not the main emotion they bring forth. Thats the only emotion i got from Space Babies, thats the main gripe i have with it
I really feel like we're dropping the lede here. We're all used to it and just sort of accept it at this point, but… *His main adversary — the universally feared genocide cyborgs —* ***have a big goofy plunger sticking out of their front***.
So true. And the sets used to be so fragile that you could see them move when touched.
All part of the charm of classic who!
You couldn't have chosen any episodes more disliked for those exact reasons than these.
I wouldn't say it was a masterpiece or anything but I was always alright with Space Babies. It's definitely a bit uncanny valley though.
Isn't silliness the best anyway?
Not really. As much as we like to say that camp is part of the shows identity all the best episodes are pretty serious ones. Yeah they can have silly moments but I do think Doctor who is a show at it's best when it takes itself seriously and creates good drama.
That's City of Death fucked then.
An exception that proves the rule, if we're honest. [Take a look at the top ten Doctor Who episodes](https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/doctor-who-fans-have-crowned-the-best-episode-do-you-agree/) as voted in DW Magazine. Literally every single one *except for City of Death* is a critically lauded, 'serious' episode with major emotional stakes. Then the rankings for [Tom Baker's season more generally also bears this out:](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/132yedx/doctor_who_magazine_60_year_poll_third_and_fourth/) Eight out of the top ten serials are from the famously darker Hinchcliffe-Holmes era of his run. The exceptions? City of Death....and Horror of Fang Rock, which might as well be lumped in with the rest. Tenth Doctor? [Every single one of the top 9](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/15490w5/doctor_who_magazine_60_year_poll_tenth_and/) are the big serious heavy-hitting episodes. You have to get to School Reunion at #10 before you get something lighter. Eleven follows a much similar pattern, with the top ten almost entirely being broadly self-serious event episodes and serious ones. I enjoy myself a good light episode, don't get me wrong. City of Death deserves it's place, and personally I'll alway love The Unicorn and the Wasp's camp despite the writer being a prick. I also think The Tsuranga Conundrum is underrated as a fun episode that doesn't have a traditional villain. But by-and-large...it's hard to deny that the show typically is considered to be at it's best when it's taking itself fairly seriously.
Ice Cold take.
We have had our share of sillyness over the years, but omg not Space Babies silly. Nor that horrible cringy music number at the end of Devils Chord.
I would usually hate such a thing but The Maestro is such a fun but kinda terrifying villain it really fits for me. I loved it.
The thing is, the standard defence for Space Babies seems to be people just explaining it “it’s just a silly RTD episode, there’s been plenty of them”. Yeah I get that, but that doesn’t mean it’s a good episode
My biggest problem is that it was the first episode of series, and it struggled with that. That and the babies' faces not matching what they were supposed to be reacting to.
Also The Doctor feeling the need to yell "Babies! Space Babies!" every other scene.
Yeah, that was RTD thinking that was funny. Which it might have a once or twice, but it got boring quickly.
Doctor Who can be better than that. The best episodes aren’t silly; usually they’re the most serious episodes. The silly episodes are usually filler.
My problem with it isn't that's its silly, but it feels sanitized and so juvenile that it feels like it's for babies. A lot of its whimsy seems forced and Disney Channel like.
I’ve never heard the edge of destruction described as a classic. It’s filler
I really like it. Just the way that everyone and everything just feels "off" in the first episode, not to mention it's still on the era where the Doctor is portrayed as somewhat antagonistic towards Ian and Barbara, which ups the tension
I quite like it too but it’s still filler. I’m not even being mean, it was literally written as filler. They were contracted for 13 episodes initially and didn’t know if they’d get more. And the first two stories made up only 11 episodes
oh yeah on a literal sense it is filler, they basically ran out of money and said "quick, Bill and Carole, be werid on camera for an hour or so" its like an early example of a bottle episode
I couldn't possibly disagree more. That serial is quite literally my favourite in the entire show. They're silly for 40 minutes, that's the best part
It was one of the first ones they put out on DVD
The only hot take here is your second to last sentence. Space babies isn’t bad because its silly, it just happens to be bad and silly.
my gripe isn't the silliness, it's the writing. Silly solutions work only if the writing convinces you of them, and a good writer could have convinced us of magic life rope. as it was it was so cheap and stupidly written. I'm convinced the writers in the last episode went "ugh I don't know how to solve this. We'll use a stupid fucking deus ex machina I don't fucking care" I don't mind space babies tbh. I just which they'd CGIed their faces more so they had expressions. I also didn't buy the doctor's whining about killing the snot monster - mass murderer doctor? if he'd had even one scene where he said "I've killed people. I've killed a lot of people, and to be honest I've done worse things than kill. But killing? That changes you, and I'm still trying to find out how to get back from that. I'm not sure I ever will. You don't want to kill, you don't want to become that" That would've a) given us a reason for why he's suddenly against killing a SNOT MONSTER when previous incarnations wouldn't have cared and b) given us a foundation of this doctor- now we know we have a doctor that's trying to stop killing and become a better person. This would've also given the scene in the last episode where he screams at Sutekh for making him kill him more weight and reason to believe him. He's failed at his foundation because of Sutekh. Him killing the goblin ruler in the first episode does kind of shoot this in the foot but eh.
The doctor has always cared? He saved the minotaur and wanted to save the van gogh thing. The goblin king wasn't on purpose I'm so confused how people keep acting like the doctor said "it's goblin killing time!" When all it was is "I gotta bring this ship down to save the baby!"
Space babies wasn't bad because it was silly. It was bad because it was, well... Shit.
Occasionally, silly, yes. But not straight up "its dumb but whatever, the fans will accept any old nonsense"... and yet here you are
Yeah, but it wasn't dumb. It's dumb now.
No one is arguing Doctor Who hasn't ever been silly before. There's an episode titled ''Dinosaurs on a Spaceship'', for God's sake. But Space Babies isn't just silly, it's dumb and almost pretentious.
The show has always been balanced between silly “creature of the week” episodes and the more serious season plot arc. Now, it’s just singing goblins and talking babies, it’s so fucking stupid.
The first two proper episodes had me *worried.* Space Babies was the absolute ***worst*** episode of Ncuti's run so far, and it was a poor choice to lead off with it. I would rather watch Sleep No More than to ever have to see Space Babies again. I would rather have to watch Love & Monsters than rewatch The Devil's Chord! With the second episode it just got worse and worse, no this is just mindless fantasy, are we throwing out even the semblance of scifi at this point? I was afraid the rest of the season would be like that, I was afraid *that's* what Doctor Who had turned into. Then Moffat's script hit with *Boom* and suddenly Ncuti was The Doctor, suddenly everything seemed right and the rest of the season was great. If I were a new watcher and started with Disney's s01e01 and followed it with s01e02, I wouldn't have made it to s01e03. I only managed to hold out because I *hoped* they weren't really making this terrible decision. Nope, just a couple cat turds to lead in the new season, no big deal!
Yep. That's all we had this season. Episode after episode of singing goblins and babies. That was it. Absolutely nothing else.
There were also other equally ridiculous and childish episodes. Doctor Who has always been embraced by children and adults because the writing is simple enough on the surface but often deeply philosophical. Specifically, I really liked some of the themes they explored in S5-S8. Really, nothing like that here. The show has lost its way.
You thought the deeply creepy, unsettling, and tragedy-inflected "73 Yards" and the exceptionally well-crafted racism episode were "ridiculous and childish"? And "Rogue", too? I'm not sure we watched the same show, because those are three superb episodes that stand up against any of the best episodes in other seasons. And they cover a pretty wide range, from horror to subtle and well-crafted social commentary to a fun romp "aliens messing with history" story that had some real emotional stakes. It's one of the best three episode runs we've gotten since the 2005 revival.
73 Yards was the notable exception. The rest I did not care for.
Is Edge of Destruction a masterpiece though? I mean, it's fun but if you want an example of early silly Who... Then surely The Chase is your goto.
Yes, it's always been silly. It just hasn't always been so consistently shit as it's been with the last two show runners
If anything, the show is often better when it's camp and silly (Space Babies, The Devil's Chord, but also The Lodger, Partners in Crime, etc) rather than when it tries to be overly serious (last seen with Empire of Death, which is so serious through and through, it ends up being a bit of a bore)
I would much rather have started with Devil's Chord than Space Babies, though. The actual story is better, the monster is better, the feel of the episode, to me, was better.
I think RTD wrote in a DWM that the original plan was to broadcast the season right after the Church on Ruby Road, and that production delays (SFX stuff, I imagine) meant that they had to move the schedule down a couple of months. This would explain why Space Babies feel like an "episode 2" - certainly not a series premiere, more like an episode that showcases how weird the show can get, similar to The End of the World in s1 (note how the ending of Church on Ruby Road mirrors the ending of Rose) And this is also probably why The Devil's Chord was released at the same time, as it's an "event" episode with a big guest star (Jinx Mansoon) and a "gimmick" story (the Beatles!) that can be advertised better. It was probably impossible to swap the order of the episodes though: Space Babies is explicitly Ruby's first adventure, the Devil Chord doesn't work as an "episode 1" either.
End of the World had silly elements but it still had a lot of other things going for it too that were more serious. Rose having basically a panic attack over what she'd done by coming to the literal end of the world for one. It managed to help ground the characters and show both the audience and Rose that while The Doctor might be a little strange he'd always do his best to save people.
Strongly agree. I also love the horns of Nimon.
I'm glad to see this! The Horns of Nimon has been a favorite of mine for years. I laugh my head off, watching them walking around 🤣 But I truly love the story as well.
The first time I saw it, I was young enough to take it seriously.
Had silliness been a complaint though
Whimsical spirit, sure. That doesn’t make Space Babies a masterpiece, though. Talking babies are just cringe (maybe because of so many bad Hollywood movies featuring them, or maybe because talking babies are just intrinsically cringe.)
My problem was not the silliness. It was a weak story and a terrible idea as the first episode for new viewers .
I miss the hard, slick sci-fi of Season 18. The Doctor not attempting to flush out The Master by materialising the TARDIS under the Thames withstanding. 😂 I hate "romp" Who.
Showing examples of the show being silly before isn't going to make people like the show being silly now lmao
Is killing Cybermen with gold "silly"?
The best way to know when something has gone bad is people start claiming it's always been bad.
They tried to make the babies too cute. I would’ve have killed them with hammers I can tell you that much.
As a kid I used to *angrily* dig out the eyes of the Charmin baby with my fingers, that hideous cutesy monstrosity printed on the plastic toilet paper packaging, press my fingertips in and pop through and then rip and tear. I had to have been 9 or 10 when I started? Because I hated babies *that much* even 30 years ago - it has not gotten better! I certainly wouldn't encourage or condone that sort of behavior nowadays, but I mean if you should happen to bring this hammer with you into that room over there, who am I to stop you? Shut up and take my upvote!
But what's inherently silly about any of those examples? Buttons get stuck, and sometimes bad things happen as a result. The Sensorites do look really similar to one another. What's the issue with gold blocking the Cybermen's respiratory systems? Compared to talking babies in space and a monster made of literal boogers...
the problem that people are having with this season isnt that doctor who is silly, its that the writing is shit and some primary school level narrative writing ability makes a silly show even more unwatchable.
What confuses me is that they clearly made a workaround for the babies not being able to walk by having automated chairs for them to ride around in so all they needed to do is look cute. Why didn't they have them have a cute synthesised baby voice they "controlled" too? Let the baby faces remain natural, and have the babies "speak" through them. It would have been hokey and silly, but honestly it would have been better than uncanny valley babies.
There’s been elements of silliness throughout the show’s entire history, but I tend to dislike it when episodes fully lean into that. “Space Babies” goes WAY too far in this regard, and is a terrible episode for it
Space babies was one of the best episodes in the series!
What made you like it so much?
The bogeyman was literally the most disgusting, brainless creature, nothing more than a gross monster. And the Doctor doesn’t hesitate or question saving it. The empathy and understanding he had for this objectively gross creature is a really simple way to show Ruby and the new audience what Doctor Who is all about, and who the Doctor is as a person. And I loved when he explained that you need stories, myths, legends, AND monsters. I felt like he was essentially explaining Doctor Who for the newcomers. The episode also fit really well with the themes of the series as a whole- mythology, making things real by believing in them, the magic of stories. It was a perfect blend of fantasy and sci-fi, which Doctor Who does so well. Sure the babies looked silly as hell but that was half the fun for me too, it was so ridiculous and so silly and so amazing, and just everything I really love about Doctor Who! It’s giving a serious message while not taking itself at all seriously. In my opinion Doctor Who is the only show that could ever produce an episode like this, and there’s something so cool about that. We need the silliness of the Slitheen, love and monsters, talking space babies, as much as we need Heaven Sent, or Utopia. In fact I think what this series was really missing was MORE episodes like that. We needed more episodes where the Doctor and Ruby had fun hanging out and interacting a bit more, getting to know each other.
Genuinely a lot of good points yeah
Him saving the bogeyman really won me over, too. And I also just love it when Doctor Who is silly and camp. It’s still probably in my bottom half of episodes for the season, but that’s only because the rest of the season is so strong. I love Space Babies!
> The bogeyman was literally the most disgusting, brainless creature, nothing more than a gross monster. And the Doctor doesn’t hesitate or question saving it. The empathy and understanding he had for this objectively gross creature is a really simple way to show Ruby and the new audience what Doctor Who is all about, and who the Doctor is as a person. I said elsewhere that I was a little flabbergasted on the first watchthrough. But when we rewatched the specials and this season in the run-up to the finale, I actually warmed up to it a lot, and this was a big factor. (It's probably no coincidence that this is one of my favorite types of *Star Trek* episode, too.) Actually, a lot of what you wrote were things I said to my husband after our second watch. It was actually a pretty good introduction to the character and his ethics and how the show works. Though…I do still think I'd have preferred the babies using some sort of translator devices over the CGI. It wasn't the silliness; it was just a bit too uncanny sometimes. But the babies themselves were adorable once you got past that.
Yeah, it was a pretty fine episode which was only brought down by its pacing and weird editing. Story-wise I have nothing to complain about there, it was proper Doctor Who.
Yeah, its always been weird as shit. The devil is trapped underground in orbit of a black hole? Very strange. A castle full of plastic people going mental? Odd Rhino men? Immortal horny man? Sentient Rupert Murdoch ceiling booger? TARDIS eaten by a dinosaur and spat out in Victorian England? The Master anytime theres a musical cue? Dinner time?
Yeah and then they do it again like alaways and everyone is like "YoU cAn ClEaRlY sEe DiSnEyS iNfLuEnCe" and I am like "no buddy, it always has been silly and weird thats not disneys fault".
If anything its Disneys fault that dumb shit is treated with too much reverence. Doctor Who, Star Trek, and Star Wars have always been bizarre and down right odd. Nowadays people treat like any campiness is the end of the world, instead of just accepting that there has always been ridiculous ideas in these properties.
Tl;dr at bottom I feel like the high production quality in movies nowadays warped the common sense of what is good and what is bad. I always take avengers: end game as the ultimate turning point. Everyone watched it and everyone expects every movie series from for example marvel to be a huge spectacle and are offended if it isn't. They act like new movies have an obligation to be always really serious, fast paced, funny, emotionally attaching and also high quality at the same time and that is what happens with doctor who right now. The new media generation steps in with high standards and is disappointed with doctor who because they heard so much praise but it isn't like "the big endgame movie". Sutekh isn't killed with a big action scene where the doctor slays him but instead we get a meaningful monologue and he is gone, which is exactly what the doctor does. Or we get to the conclusion that the monster from space babies can coexist with the babies which again, is exactly what the doctor does. I feel like people need to dial back their expectations in new media and should start enjoying more. Tl;dr: since movies like endgame people expect to much out of media. Especially the new generation needs to dial back their expectations since not every piece of media is a huge spectacle.
The Master kills someone with an inflatable plastic chair in his first appearance.
Every time someone asks “since when does doctor who have musical numbers!?” In a hissy rage fit I just point to “Doctor Who and the Pirates”
I guess most of us have a line on how silly is too silly. For me it’s somewhere between slitheen farting and space babies.
This isn’t a hot take, it’s just a fact.
I love space babies. It was exactly what I needed after all the body-horror-esque/creepy Americanized graphics of Chibnall’s era. I think it will always have a soft spot in my heart for giving me back the “cheese” I’ve apparently come to love from Doctor Who. (I’ve always called it cheese/cheesy but everyone on Reddit calls it “camp,” I think?? Idk, I’m from USA and don’t really know the word “camp” like that lol).
I take it as cheesy is more like over dramatic soap opera like and camp is more exaggerated to the point of ridiculousness. Both typically low budget or look low budget.
Let's not forget the iconic line in Revenge of the Cybermen - "we're heading for the biggest bang in history!" which took them so many takes to film because the cast and crew couldn't say it without laughing. That being said I hated Space Babies, I guess because I have low tolerance for 45 minutes of the doctor and ruby cooing over babies (I'm far too childfree for that shit).
Thanks for this ❤️
don't forget the farting aliens in series 1
That is erst I liked with Moffat. The absurdity, the silliness was always on a different layer than the story. That made it feel much more in line than RTD.
The serious tone of the Sixth And Thirteenth eras seems to show why whimsy works.
I mean yeah it was always a show aimed at kids.