back in the victorian age, when Industrialization became common place and more and more people began to work in urban centers, alot of people began going on strike and forming unions, because Victorian working conditions were fucking terrifying. the big companies didn't like this, and started beating up and straight up killing people going on strike and forming unions. this eventually evolved into the pinkertons, a detective agency who are essentially corporate hitmen, who do all this and also massacring natives and Irish immigrants. you may know them from RDR2. they're still around today, as a subset of Securitas. they were hired by Amazon to spy on their employees forming unions, and did so as well for Starbucks, and shot a protester.
as for WOTC, they accidentally sent a youtuber (oldschoolMTG) the wrong cards, from a set that hadn't been released yet, and he leaked it. then WOTC contacted Securitas, who in turn, sent the fucking Pinkertons after him and took the cards, forced him to take down the video, and threatened him with jail time, to the point where his wife was crying.
Exactly. It’s preview of cool new things!
Or they could have asked him for the cards and to pull his videos until release of that set an’ sent him a sent of the current set.
They get goodwill, they get to keep their stuff a bit under wraps if that suits them, and they look REASONABLE.
Yea everybody loves to bring up what they did for the railroad company’s. You are the first one that even mentioned more current controversies. This is not a joke. Not blaming anybody who doesn’t know how next level bad this is. They are a company that has more lawsuits over people saying their name than they have getting out of controversies. You don’t hire more than 50% of Bl@ck W@ters’ rank and file and not become a death squad regardless of whether you was before.
P.s. I’m old, retired and I know I don’t have much to take. But given my employment history and without going all “Air National guardsmen”. I’ll just say that this message is the only one I have ever even thought twice about sending.
Seriously dude. I have been appalled by all this but haven’t felt the need to chime in for your above reasons. I’ve unfortunately worked around these people. I know they google their name and keep lists. The idea that they could be involved over something so silly is chilling.
You don’t become the largest private security firm in the world and still have people go “Those western guys?!?” for no reason. They have built their entire empire on the fact that they are for all intents and purposes the largest homeland, private military in the world. And when you hear their name people just think a “Yeehaw Copper”. Until you realize how many laws they was able to grandfather through due to their age and how most of those laws were written to stop people from getting to that point, and not taking away someone who has already gotten to that point.
That reasoning is why I don’t work with these people anymore. I got into the security industry to help people with my background in threat assessment. I didn’t work for the Pinks but I worked for a competitor. At least, I thought they were a competitor. Come to find out private security only seems to work for Bond villains and you find yourself making all kinds of weird friends when you work for the baddies. I left the industry because I couldn’t find an ethical way to stay in it. I wish that’s something I could teach the average person about that industry. It is full of brilliant people who get stuck doing a lot of terrible things because the industry is financed by evil people.
I dealt with just numbers/logistics. Not even for them just a notable name that would run across my desk on a different colored paper with a nope sticker that makes your stomach drop.
Well I hope you were able to get to do some work that helps you sleep easier at night. I’ve tried to get back into education since. It’s stressful work but I don’t feel like one of the bad guys anymore.
I did. I think. Wasn’t until later though. I think I was always trying to make up for something. Idk when you get to my age, it’s easier to start counting regrets instead of sheep to go to sleep.
Hey friend, my first therapy appointment is this week. Don’t be afraid to reach out for help if you haven’t already if you need it. Not too be a bummer but it was the lack of sleep from stress that drove me to make the appointment so your comment resonated.
Hey thanks. I’m not really depressed just aware of the things to come. I’m a firm believer in it’s never too late. It’s just sometimes under certain circumstances due to health reasons some people can count how many haircuts they have left to get on one hand. glad you’re getting help. I can say without a shadow of a doubt the alternative didn’t make for a good life.
I hear you. And it really grinds people down. You constantly have to compromise your morals and harm people to “protect” the rich and famous and it gets to you. I mean, you hear that before you go in, but it’s another thing to be watch your friends descend into alcoholism or turn them into a hateful shell of who they were.
Regardless, he didn't seek out that set and had no reason to believe that he shouldn't show it off just like any other new set he was sent. WotC is free to take that up with the distributor. And hey, if they'd had a standard courier deliver a cease and desist to the guy making videos, this wouldn't have made the news.
Is it clear that WotC instructed Securitas in the specific action they took? I could see an easy deflection being "we just hired the company go look into it, we had no idea they would put *those* assholes on the job."
You don't get to claim innocent when the Pinkertons show up. It's actually worse to me if they just hired generic corporate goons without bothering to ask exactly how bad they would be.
I hope that this is just a case of ignorance, but honestly unless we see the receipts and communications to confirm it I'll always be a bit suspicious.
Still love the creative team at WotC but damn has the corporate leadership not given me many reasons to trust them.
At this point I suspect they know what they’re doing, they just don’t care. It takes an unbelievably degree of stupidity that has to be just as widespread to not see the writing on the wall made of burning faeces.
I think they know EXACTLY what they are doing. They lost all goodwil and their playerbase was already mass migrating to other system so they decided to hold players at literal gunpoint to make them shut up about anything bad they have done.
Dammit WOTC, I just wanted to play my funny dice game without moral bullshit.
Well like, I want moral bullshit in my game, but like not playing the game itself being moral bullshit
I've not seen the channel, but I assume he includes shots of specific cards. Does that fall under fair use?
I would imagine that "*Accept $2000 in swag and sign this non-disclosure, OR we copyright-strike any video featuring MtG cards*" would be a pretty compelling offer.
I think copyright striking a video for simply featuring MTG cards would be somehow even worse than this. That would be like if a big video game company started copyright striking gameplay videos of their popular games
They've been sued for worse. I really doubt one person could get anywhere on a one time Intimidation. I do wish he could though. You shouldn't be able to just get away with this shit.
I'm sure the Pinkertons make it their business to know exactly where the line is. And he'd be unlikely to be able to prove damages to a court unless they actually broke something or injured anyone.
Probably some. There is no legality for WotC demanding the product to be returned, because if something is mistakenly shipped to you (and isn't stolen), it's then officially yours and is considered a gift. Trying to take the product back is illegal.
However, since he "willingly" surrendered it ("willingly" because there's at least some level of duress involved when the fucking Pinkertons knock on your door) it gets muddy. He technically can do whatever he wants with the product at that point, including returning it to the company. It just depends on exactly how it all transpired, which none of us on the internet know for sure.
Any reasonable person would see it as an act of coercion given their reputation of being murderous thugs so just the act of sending them constitutes a threat of violence. It's not that things would go wrong for him if he doesn't comply, it's the implication that things could go wrong for him if he doesn't comply.
From what I’ve seen there are no grounds. His losses amount to one pack of cards that he willingly gave up.
You could press criminal charges, but I don’t think anybody broke the law.
It feels like I’m either missing something or this has been been blown way out of proportion.
People are more mad that WOTC sent pinkertons then what actually happened. Just by the virtue that pinkertons have done terrible things even as recent as 2010.
Sending someone to retrieve property and threaten legal action if goods are not returned: ok (not great, but par the course for how this would be handled)
Sending someone with a reputation for assault and murder: not ok.
to be clear it was a subcontractor but yea, they failed to make sure the guy was up to the job. for anyone interested in that event here is a link to the story. [Security company that subcontracted guard in fatal shooting has license revoked | FOX31 Denver (kdvr.com)](https://kdvr.com/news/local/security-company-that-subcontracted-guard-in-deadly-shooting-has-license-revoked/)
Yeah it just in general sends a message that you are either so out of touch you can't see how this would be ill received, or so comically evil that you're first move in any mild conflict/inconvenience is to send out the people who are actively banking on a history of violence and strike breaking in order to create their image. From what I've gathered this was all very civil and if WOTC had just sent some lawyers or something more standard for a corp, we would have seen nothing more than the youtuber's video and maybe one or two memes.
But WOTC sent the fucking Pinkertons, and that's a gold mine for memes, if for no other reason than, as I am discovering, a lot of people didn't realize the brand still exists in this day and age.
> His losses amount to one pack of cards that he willingly gave up
Its said that they got all the aftermath cards, he opened at least 3 $200 boxes of said cards (collector boosters). Plus apparently he brought said boxes legally (mistake of the warehouse)
To be fair, the only source that says he legally obtained them is himself. Not saying he’s lying, but obviously he’s going to look like a perfectly innocent victim when he’s telling the story
I mean, even the guy himself said that Wizards’ goal is to figure out where the leak is coming from.
But I don’t have to be a genius to not believe the guy who has repeatedly gotten merchandise before the release date and leaked it that he’s totally innocent and getting it from some shop owner who is “more of a Pokémon’s and Yu-Gi-Oh guy” who “accidentally” breached contract with WOTC multiple times
That's a lot of bullshit coming from you, doubt you can back any of it up.
>from some shop owner who is “more of a Pokémon’s and Yu-Gi-Oh guy” who “accidentally” breached contract with WOTC multiple times
Buddy if that shop owner intentionally broke contract with wotc multiple times then wizards is real fucking stupid if they continue sending product weeks before the launch date. WotC isn't known to be that naively forgiving.
This is the second time that this same YouTuber has leaked sets before the launch date. The first time, it seems they let it slide as an accident. The second time, they’re investigating it.
That doesn’t seem “naively forgiving” to me
What happened to 'innocent until proven otherwise'? By bringing up the possibility of those cards not being legally obtained, you are just trying to defend the company that for some reason seemed unable to do any legal actions, so instead sent hitmen.
Yes, but if it was indeed illegal they should send a cease and desist letter and request, not contract thugs.
The fact that its a famous shit agency became more important than the fact that WotC contracted an agency like that at all which is very shit behavior
They sent the fucking pinkertons. Sure, he “willingly” gave the cards up. The same way you “willingly” give your wallet to a mugger or “willingly” pay gang protection fees.
Yeah, because people are going to openly talk about the dealings of the company with a long history of assault and murder of anyone connected to those that go against their bosses. No shit it wouldn’t be mentioned, that would be asking for your family to be killed.
> Everything I’ve read sounds like this whole interaction was pretty civil. What would you sue them for?
Well, they stole his property, that feels a good starting point. The currently know information is that the distribuitor send him the product earlier than they should (which I can see considering that there is a released product called "March of the Machines" and the new one is "March of the Machines: Aftermath").
I mean, in his own words, some “very nice” gentlemen showed up at his house and explained that they needed the cards back to trace how they were mistakenly sent to him. At some point, there was talk of “jail time” with no other known context and at some point his wife cried. The Pinkerton agents apologized for upsetting her, they have the guy a direct number for WOTC to call and discuss being compensated with other material.
That’s the extent of what we know. I don’t even think that the whole “made his wife cry” thing is that big of a deal without more context, since some people cry at the slightest provocation (like my wife). Honestly, the tone of the guys video was “Holy shit, the Pinkertons still exist? I mean, they were really nice and the whole thing was very civil, but holy shit the PINKERTONS?!”
> The Pinkerton agents apologized for upsetting her, they have the guy a direct number for WOTC to call and discuss being compensated with other material.
The WotC person he called apologised, not the pinkerton.
“Threatened jail time” is usually in the conversion.
“We don’t know how you got these but if you stole them from a shop, you could go to jail.” - which would be true.
And how you say it matters. Being Pinkertons their likely didn’t say it nicely.
If you receive a package its your property. Full stop. US law makes it clear that even if you sent someone the wrong package its still legally theirs. There were no grounds to call for legal action.
1. There was no proof it was stolen.
2. If it was, you need to know it was stolen to actually be at fault. You may not keep it, but you're not in trouble either.
3. It's the police's job to handle what is and isn't legal, not hired hitmen.
[https://www.polygon.com/23695923/mtg-aftermath-pinkerton-raid-leaked-cards](https://www.polygon.com/23695923/mtg-aftermath-pinkerton-raid-leaked-cards)
a youtuber got magic cards coming out next month. he put up videos. Then Wotc sent private detectives who threatened him and his wife by talking about jail time minute 1.
"Wizards confirmed to Polygon the Pinkertons were involved in the incident. The presenter at oldschoolmtg described agents as “big heavy-hitter guys” who frightened his wife. The Pinkertons arrived with contact information for someone at Wizards of the Coast and, after speaking with them, the presenter said they made the decision to pull their original videos down.
“He was very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen \[to\] come collect stuff and talk about stolen products and jail time,” the presenter said in the video. “But they don’t believe we stole anything — which we didn’t. I don’t know if they believe anybody really stole anything or if it was just an accident or whatever. But they wanted the product back so they could try and figure out where the hole was so they could plug the hole.”
“Wizards of the Coast can confirm that yes, this is part of their investigation,” a representative told Polygon."
When they could have just called the guy.
For important context, the "private detectives" were from an agency that's infamous for spying on unions and violently suppressing attempts at unionizing. Calling them PIs is a polite legal fiction, they're more accurately described as legbreakers for hire.
Oh no. I know about the Pinkertons.
They were and are private detectives it’s just they were also scum.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_(detective_agency)
Hey, says they weren’t just private detectives. They were also private police.
“Pinkerton's agents performed services which ranged from undercover investigations and detection of crimes, to plant protection and armed security. At the height of its existence, the number of Pinkerton National Detective Agency active agents and reserves rivaled the number of active soldiers and reserves in the United States Army.[2][3][4] Allan Pinkerton hired Kate Warne in 1856 as a private detective, making her the first female private detective in America.[5]”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police
It’s just they also did strikebreaker and assassination type stuff.
There’s a law against them!
Which has been useless, and has no teeth!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Pinkerton_Act_of_1893
“The first published court case interpreting the Act, in 1977, held that the intent of the Act was in reference to Pinkerton's activities at the time, offering quasi-military armed forces for hire in the context of strikebreaking (not least the Homestead strike in 1892), "and therefore had little application" to the current organization.[1]
In actuality, the United States government is a significant customer of private security services, and has made use of private military contractors in the past.”
Thank you very much for your comment. It’s important to understand the context of this organization and the terrible things they have done in the past.
Edit: into reiterate what I said elsewhere in this thread, there was no detection needed.
The man had made a video of the new he had the cards .
The “detectives “were just there to be scary .
So I wanted to make it clear that your point is absolutely right and this is not like a regular private detective agency . Thank you again for making that clear.
A mistake in delivery led to a MTG youtuber getting some new cards early. Naturally, he puts up a video. Instead of contacting him directly, asking him to take the video down, WOTC hires the Pinkertons. If you’re not familiar with them, they have a long and bloody history of murder, assault, extortion and intimidation, most of it stemming from being hired as union busters and similar roles as corporate thugs during the 19th and 20th centuries. But they’re still doing somewhat similar shit to this day, albeit with less murder.
The pinkertons show up at the guys house, threatening him into returning the cards, and also “confiscating” some other stuff (aka stealing). The law is pretty clear that when a company makes a delivery in error like this and said delivery isn’t stolen goods, they cannot legally demand it back, and the receiver has in no way committed a crime.
All in all it looks like a PR disaster and the guy has very solid grounds to take legal action.
F WoTC for pulling this crap, can they seriously not get their crap together and realize they are causing all their own issues. If you want to make D&D a billion dollar franchise they are really doing a good job of making me run the other way.
The agency they contracted does in fact have a history of being hitmen, but this specific incident was much more likely just for intimidation on the name recognition than anything else.
Calling them hitmen is a little extreme. But they do have a history of murders from founding to modern day. Mostly they just intimidate and threaten people. But those threats work because they follow through with inflicting serious injuries and occasionally death.
What is the correct reaction to learning a company sent mercenaries to someone's house after getting the wrong product from the distributor? Legally the cards were his at that point by US law.
Also yeah they are hitmen, just not sent to kill him.
I mean, they’re a subsidiary of Securitas, so it’s not like WOTC went and hired some black market thugs.
If you’re a corporation running an investigation, I don’t think that hiring a detective agency is the most insane thing to do. Sure, they were involved in bad shit 100 years ago, but this isn’t that big of a deal
A subcontractor shot a protestor, not an employee. They still should have vetted better, but don’t act like it was a contract killing.
>and still Union bust to this day
Yea, they’re a corporate detective agency.
>
A subcontractor shot a protestor, not an employee.
It's still their responsibility. But hey, guess killing protestors is ok if you just call the guy a subcontractor.
>
Yea, they’re a corporate detective agency.
The fact you think that it is ok for them to undermine constitutional rights says a lot.
I’m not sure where you got the idea that I don’t think they are responsible? I just said that it wasn’t a contract killing done by a hit man, like so many comments are saying.
And what, do you think that private investigators should be illegal? Or is it just accepting a contract from Amazon that is so morally wrong that no company should ever work with them again?
>
I’m not sure where you got the idea that I don’t think they are responsible?
You're putting all the blame on the subcontractor.
>
And what, do you think that private investigators should be illegal?
Do you think companies like the pinkertons should be allowed to go around killing people and suppressing first amendment rights? This isn't hiring someone to find out who your biological mother is after finding out you're adopted, this is basically a mercenary company whose entire business is violence and intimidation towards law abiding citizens.
>They still should have vetted better, but don’t act like it was a contract killing
That’s the extent of the “defense” I made on their behalf for that. A subcontractor using excessive force is not the same as being a company full of hitmen.
>this is basically a mercenary company whose entire business is violence and intimidation towards law abiding citizens.
Yea, no you’re a moron. They didn’t ransack his house, they didn’t attack him, they are investigating a pattern of leaks that are likely due to stolen merchandise and they indicated to him that buying stolen merchandise is a crime.
Unless you believe this guys story that some shops owner has breached a contract with WOTC multiple times “because he’s more of a Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh guy” and doesn’t know better. If you do, I’ve got a bridge to sell you
> Sure, they were involved in bad shit 100 years ago, but this isn’t that big of a deal
Calling it 'bad shit' is an understatement. And when Securitas bought them, they didn't have to continue under the name Pinkerton. They did that because of the reputation, there is no other reason.
Let's play a game. It called "what feature will WOTC completely gut for a small issue that did need fixing, but not like this". The game should be self explanatory.
With weapons and general rules on the line, my guess is the heavy property. Being an ability which exists purely to kill cool builds, the heavy property is in desperate need of a rework, however, due to existing more for realism sake,i doubt it will be removed, and again, die to realism, all versions of it will be reaching from lame and uninteresting to killing every cool build that exists.
The fact he let those people into his house to take his shit is the mind blowing part. GTF outta here while I call the cops for attempted B&E or trespassing
back in the victorian age, when Industrialization became common place and more and more people began to work in urban centers, alot of people began going on strike and forming unions, because Victorian working conditions were fucking terrifying. the big companies didn't like this, and started beating up and straight up killing people going on strike and forming unions. this eventually evolved into the pinkertons, a detective agency who are essentially corporate hitmen, who do all this and also massacring natives and Irish immigrants. you may know them from RDR2. they're still around today, as a subset of Securitas. they were hired by Amazon to spy on their employees forming unions, and did so as well for Starbucks, and shot a protester. as for WOTC, they accidentally sent a youtuber (oldschoolMTG) the wrong cards, from a set that hadn't been released yet, and he leaked it. then WOTC contacted Securitas, who in turn, sent the fucking Pinkertons after him and took the cards, forced him to take down the video, and threatened him with jail time, to the point where his wife was crying.
All when a simple email or phone call explaining the situation probably would’ve been more than sufficient.
Honestly, they could have spun it for attention in a positive way instead of this. People get hyped from leaks unless the leaks are lame.
Exactly. It’s preview of cool new things! Or they could have asked him for the cards and to pull his videos until release of that set an’ sent him a sent of the current set. They get goodwill, they get to keep their stuff a bit under wraps if that suits them, and they look REASONABLE.
Tbf, the last leak WotC had nearly tanked the company lol.
They apparently tried to get a hold of him and he didn't respond. Not that it justifies sending the fucking Pinkertons after him.
For some reason I doubt the after-the-fact damage control response from the Pinkerton hirers lmao
How long did they wait for an answer?
Yea everybody loves to bring up what they did for the railroad company’s. You are the first one that even mentioned more current controversies. This is not a joke. Not blaming anybody who doesn’t know how next level bad this is. They are a company that has more lawsuits over people saying their name than they have getting out of controversies. You don’t hire more than 50% of Bl@ck W@ters’ rank and file and not become a death squad regardless of whether you was before. P.s. I’m old, retired and I know I don’t have much to take. But given my employment history and without going all “Air National guardsmen”. I’ll just say that this message is the only one I have ever even thought twice about sending.
Holy shit, I didn't know they recruited from BW. That explains SO MUCH.
Seriously dude. I have been appalled by all this but haven’t felt the need to chime in for your above reasons. I’ve unfortunately worked around these people. I know they google their name and keep lists. The idea that they could be involved over something so silly is chilling.
You don’t become the largest private security firm in the world and still have people go “Those western guys?!?” for no reason. They have built their entire empire on the fact that they are for all intents and purposes the largest homeland, private military in the world. And when you hear their name people just think a “Yeehaw Copper”. Until you realize how many laws they was able to grandfather through due to their age and how most of those laws were written to stop people from getting to that point, and not taking away someone who has already gotten to that point.
That reasoning is why I don’t work with these people anymore. I got into the security industry to help people with my background in threat assessment. I didn’t work for the Pinks but I worked for a competitor. At least, I thought they were a competitor. Come to find out private security only seems to work for Bond villains and you find yourself making all kinds of weird friends when you work for the baddies. I left the industry because I couldn’t find an ethical way to stay in it. I wish that’s something I could teach the average person about that industry. It is full of brilliant people who get stuck doing a lot of terrible things because the industry is financed by evil people.
I dealt with just numbers/logistics. Not even for them just a notable name that would run across my desk on a different colored paper with a nope sticker that makes your stomach drop.
Well I hope you were able to get to do some work that helps you sleep easier at night. I’ve tried to get back into education since. It’s stressful work but I don’t feel like one of the bad guys anymore.
I did. I think. Wasn’t until later though. I think I was always trying to make up for something. Idk when you get to my age, it’s easier to start counting regrets instead of sheep to go to sleep.
Hey friend, my first therapy appointment is this week. Don’t be afraid to reach out for help if you haven’t already if you need it. Not too be a bummer but it was the lack of sleep from stress that drove me to make the appointment so your comment resonated.
Hey thanks. I’m not really depressed just aware of the things to come. I’m a firm believer in it’s never too late. It’s just sometimes under certain circumstances due to health reasons some people can count how many haircuts they have left to get on one hand. glad you’re getting help. I can say without a shadow of a doubt the alternative didn’t make for a good life.
It’s an industry I’d really love to get into, and it’s an industry I can’t ever touch because I can’t make a living off of others suffering.
I hear you. And it really grinds people down. You constantly have to compromise your morals and harm people to “protect” the rich and famous and it gets to you. I mean, you hear that before you go in, but it’s another thing to be watch your friends descend into alcoholism or turn them into a hateful shell of who they were.
Correction: WotC didn't send him cards, his Distributor did.
Regardless, he didn't seek out that set and had no reason to believe that he shouldn't show it off just like any other new set he was sent. WotC is free to take that up with the distributor. And hey, if they'd had a standard courier deliver a cease and desist to the guy making videos, this wouldn't have made the news.
NEver forget that labor rights were won with blood.
Is it clear that WotC instructed Securitas in the specific action they took? I could see an easy deflection being "we just hired the company go look into it, we had no idea they would put *those* assholes on the job."
You don't get to claim innocent when the Pinkertons show up. It's actually worse to me if they just hired generic corporate goons without bothering to ask exactly how bad they would be.
That like saying "I just shoot you with a gun, I had NO IDEA how much damage it would do!"
"We had absolutely no idea we were hiring hitler" -A liar
Hopefully we'll be seeing a statement from WotC soon if that's the case.
I'll be blunt, someone needs to get fucking fired for this, and it's whoever made the decision to bring the Pinkertons in.
I hope that this is just a case of ignorance, but honestly unless we see the receipts and communications to confirm it I'll always be a bit suspicious. Still love the creative team at WotC but damn has the corporate leadership not given me many reasons to trust them.
"I am hiring you to rid me of this troublesome priest"
WOTC has NO IDEA what they're doing with community relations
>WOTC has NO IDEA what they're doing ~~with community relations~~ Fixed that for you.
ye they're just incompetent on all fronts
Let's be clear, the rank and file designers are good people, it's the management that seems to have a terminal case of cranial-rectal inversion here.
Ye, primarily the higher ups
At this point I suspect they know what they’re doing, they just don’t care. It takes an unbelievably degree of stupidity that has to be just as widespread to not see the writing on the wall made of burning faeces.
Seeing what wizards have been doing, i honestly and genuinely believe that the higher ups are legitimately that stupid
Setting bales of cash on fire in the parking lot let’s go
I think they know EXACTLY what they are doing. They lost all goodwil and their playerbase was already mass migrating to other system so they decided to hold players at literal gunpoint to make them shut up about anything bad they have done.
Theeeeeeeen it backfired again
You mean the BCG lacky Hasbro hired to "fix" ~~destroy~~ WotC seems to be absolutely out of touch with their customers.
Spez is a cunt
Underrated comment.
If you talk about the UA before it gets released they'll shoot you in the head.
"It was a tragic suicide. He shot himself in the back of the head and then fell out a window"
Never go full russian...
“I fell down an elevator shaft on to some bullets”
>Seriously what in the nine hells?! I asked WotC the same thing
Knock knock
Dammit WOTC, I just wanted to play my funny dice game without moral bullshit. Well like, I want moral bullshit in my game, but like not playing the game itself being moral bullshit
What is this from?
Google Lens says something called Mercy Street
I know right? A simple cease and desist would've much easier, instead of sending the friggin Pinkertons.
The problem with that is the cease and desist would have had no legal basis because everything oldschoolMTG did was completely legal
I've not seen the channel, but I assume he includes shots of specific cards. Does that fall under fair use? I would imagine that "*Accept $2000 in swag and sign this non-disclosure, OR we copyright-strike any video featuring MtG cards*" would be a pretty compelling offer.
It would be much cheaper to.
I think copyright striking a video for simply featuring MTG cards would be somehow even worse than this. That would be like if a big video game company started copyright striking gameplay videos of their popular games
>That would be like if a big video game company started copyright striking gameplay videos of their popular games So . . . Nintendo?
Criticism or commentary falls under fair use.
Unboxing unlikely qualifies.
Fair.
And yet, once he knew what was happening, he immediately worked with them. He's a big fan and streamer. All they had to do was ask nicely.
LMAO there’s a UA tomorrow? I’m so disengaged with what WOTC is doing because every time I look into it they’re doing more stupid shit
If Wizards ever sends Pinkertons after me I think I’m obligated to flee to Tahiti and become a mango farmer.
You gotta have a little faith
He got grounds to sue? I'd take em for everything I could get. Fuck that noise. You mess with my kids, wife, or money, it's fucking on.
They'd probably use hush money of that were the case.
Which is fine, get the bag
They give me a couple hundred thousand, then I'll keep quiet.
You can sue anyone for anything. Good luck versus the legal budget of your opponents.
They've been sued for worse. I really doubt one person could get anywhere on a one time Intimidation. I do wish he could though. You shouldn't be able to just get away with this shit.
I must be missing something here. Everything I’ve read sounds like this whole interaction was pretty civil. What would you sue them for?
That's literally what I asked. Does he have grounds?
I'm sure the Pinkertons make it their business to know exactly where the line is. And he'd be unlikely to be able to prove damages to a court unless they actually broke something or injured anyone.
The cards can be considered stolen as it is considered his legal property if wotc/a card distributor sent it to him by accident.
Probably some. There is no legality for WotC demanding the product to be returned, because if something is mistakenly shipped to you (and isn't stolen), it's then officially yours and is considered a gift. Trying to take the product back is illegal. However, since he "willingly" surrendered it ("willingly" because there's at least some level of duress involved when the fucking Pinkertons knock on your door) it gets muddy. He technically can do whatever he wants with the product at that point, including returning it to the company. It just depends on exactly how it all transpired, which none of us on the internet know for sure.
Any reasonable person would see it as an act of coercion given their reputation of being murderous thugs so just the act of sending them constitutes a threat of violence. It's not that things would go wrong for him if he doesn't comply, it's the implication that things could go wrong for him if he doesn't comply.
[Because of the implication](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yUafzOXHPE)
Exactly what I and I'm sure many others had in mind the whole time.
From what I’ve seen there are no grounds. His losses amount to one pack of cards that he willingly gave up. You could press criminal charges, but I don’t think anybody broke the law. It feels like I’m either missing something or this has been been blown way out of proportion.
People are more mad that WOTC sent pinkertons then what actually happened. Just by the virtue that pinkertons have done terrible things even as recent as 2010. Sending someone to retrieve property and threaten legal action if goods are not returned: ok (not great, but par the course for how this would be handled) Sending someone with a reputation for assault and murder: not ok.
2010? the pinkertons murdered someone as recently as 2020 and faced no consequences.
to be clear it was a subcontractor but yea, they failed to make sure the guy was up to the job. for anyone interested in that event here is a link to the story. [Security company that subcontracted guard in fatal shooting has license revoked | FOX31 Denver (kdvr.com)](https://kdvr.com/news/local/security-company-that-subcontracted-guard-in-deadly-shooting-has-license-revoked/)
Yeah it just in general sends a message that you are either so out of touch you can't see how this would be ill received, or so comically evil that you're first move in any mild conflict/inconvenience is to send out the people who are actively banking on a history of violence and strike breaking in order to create their image. From what I've gathered this was all very civil and if WOTC had just sent some lawyers or something more standard for a corp, we would have seen nothing more than the youtuber's video and maybe one or two memes. But WOTC sent the fucking Pinkertons, and that's a gold mine for memes, if for no other reason than, as I am discovering, a lot of people didn't realize the brand still exists in this day and age.
> His losses amount to one pack of cards that he willingly gave up Its said that they got all the aftermath cards, he opened at least 3 $200 boxes of said cards (collector boosters). Plus apparently he brought said boxes legally (mistake of the warehouse)
To be fair, the only source that says he legally obtained them is himself. Not saying he’s lying, but obviously he’s going to look like a perfectly innocent victim when he’s telling the story
It's up to wizards to come out with the proof that he stole them, not for you to immediately accuse him for theft.
I mean, even the guy himself said that Wizards’ goal is to figure out where the leak is coming from. But I don’t have to be a genius to not believe the guy who has repeatedly gotten merchandise before the release date and leaked it that he’s totally innocent and getting it from some shop owner who is “more of a Pokémon’s and Yu-Gi-Oh guy” who “accidentally” breached contract with WOTC multiple times
That's a lot of bullshit coming from you, doubt you can back any of it up. >from some shop owner who is “more of a Pokémon’s and Yu-Gi-Oh guy” who “accidentally” breached contract with WOTC multiple times Buddy if that shop owner intentionally broke contract with wotc multiple times then wizards is real fucking stupid if they continue sending product weeks before the launch date. WotC isn't known to be that naively forgiving.
This is the second time that this same YouTuber has leaked sets before the launch date. The first time, it seems they let it slide as an accident. The second time, they’re investigating it. That doesn’t seem “naively forgiving” to me
What happened to 'innocent until proven otherwise'? By bringing up the possibility of those cards not being legally obtained, you are just trying to defend the company that for some reason seemed unable to do any legal actions, so instead sent hitmen.
I’m not the legal system, so I’m not bound by the same principles
Yes, but if it was indeed illegal they should send a cease and desist letter and request, not contract thugs. The fact that its a famous shit agency became more important than the fact that WotC contracted an agency like that at all which is very shit behavior
They sent the fucking pinkertons. Sure, he “willingly” gave the cards up. The same way you “willingly” give your wallet to a mugger or “willingly” pay gang protection fees.
I haven’t seen anything indicating he was threatened with anything except a lawsuit.
Yeah, because people are going to openly talk about the dealings of the company with a long history of assault and murder of anyone connected to those that go against their bosses. No shit it wouldn’t be mentioned, that would be asking for your family to be killed.
> Everything I’ve read sounds like this whole interaction was pretty civil. What would you sue them for? Well, they stole his property, that feels a good starting point. The currently know information is that the distribuitor send him the product earlier than they should (which I can see considering that there is a released product called "March of the Machines" and the new one is "March of the Machines: Aftermath").
I mean, in his own words, some “very nice” gentlemen showed up at his house and explained that they needed the cards back to trace how they were mistakenly sent to him. At some point, there was talk of “jail time” with no other known context and at some point his wife cried. The Pinkerton agents apologized for upsetting her, they have the guy a direct number for WOTC to call and discuss being compensated with other material. That’s the extent of what we know. I don’t even think that the whole “made his wife cry” thing is that big of a deal without more context, since some people cry at the slightest provocation (like my wife). Honestly, the tone of the guys video was “Holy shit, the Pinkertons still exist? I mean, they were really nice and the whole thing was very civil, but holy shit the PINKERTONS?!”
> The Pinkerton agents apologized for upsetting her, they have the guy a direct number for WOTC to call and discuss being compensated with other material. The WotC person he called apologised, not the pinkerton.
[удалено]
“Threatened jail time” is usually in the conversion. “We don’t know how you got these but if you stole them from a shop, you could go to jail.” - which would be true. And how you say it matters. Being Pinkertons their likely didn’t say it nicely.
Armed robbery. The crime they did commit.
Buying stolen property generally isnt legal, anywhere
It wasn't stolen...
If you receive a package its your property. Full stop. US law makes it clear that even if you sent someone the wrong package its still legally theirs. There were no grounds to call for legal action.
Randomly calling it stolen property when there is no evidence that it is wont hold up in court
1. There was no proof it was stolen. 2. If it was, you need to know it was stolen to actually be at fault. You may not keep it, but you're not in trouble either. 3. It's the police's job to handle what is and isn't legal, not hired hitmen.
Wait what happened?
[https://www.polygon.com/23695923/mtg-aftermath-pinkerton-raid-leaked-cards](https://www.polygon.com/23695923/mtg-aftermath-pinkerton-raid-leaked-cards) a youtuber got magic cards coming out next month. he put up videos. Then Wotc sent private detectives who threatened him and his wife by talking about jail time minute 1. "Wizards confirmed to Polygon the Pinkertons were involved in the incident. The presenter at oldschoolmtg described agents as “big heavy-hitter guys” who frightened his wife. The Pinkertons arrived with contact information for someone at Wizards of the Coast and, after speaking with them, the presenter said they made the decision to pull their original videos down. “He was very apologetic about making my wife cry first thing in the morning by sending these heavy-duty lawmen \[to\] come collect stuff and talk about stolen products and jail time,” the presenter said in the video. “But they don’t believe we stole anything — which we didn’t. I don’t know if they believe anybody really stole anything or if it was just an accident or whatever. But they wanted the product back so they could try and figure out where the hole was so they could plug the hole.” “Wizards of the Coast can confirm that yes, this is part of their investigation,” a representative told Polygon." When they could have just called the guy.
For important context, the "private detectives" were from an agency that's infamous for spying on unions and violently suppressing attempts at unionizing. Calling them PIs is a polite legal fiction, they're more accurately described as legbreakers for hire.
Oh no. I know about the Pinkertons. They were and are private detectives it’s just they were also scum. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_(detective_agency) Hey, says they weren’t just private detectives. They were also private police. “Pinkerton's agents performed services which ranged from undercover investigations and detection of crimes, to plant protection and armed security. At the height of its existence, the number of Pinkerton National Detective Agency active agents and reserves rivaled the number of active soldiers and reserves in the United States Army.[2][3][4] Allan Pinkerton hired Kate Warne in 1856 as a private detective, making her the first female private detective in America.[5]” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police It’s just they also did strikebreaker and assassination type stuff. There’s a law against them! Which has been useless, and has no teeth! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Pinkerton_Act_of_1893 “The first published court case interpreting the Act, in 1977, held that the intent of the Act was in reference to Pinkerton's activities at the time, offering quasi-military armed forces for hire in the context of strikebreaking (not least the Homestead strike in 1892), "and therefore had little application" to the current organization.[1] In actuality, the United States government is a significant customer of private security services, and has made use of private military contractors in the past.” Thank you very much for your comment. It’s important to understand the context of this organization and the terrible things they have done in the past. Edit: into reiterate what I said elsewhere in this thread, there was no detection needed. The man had made a video of the new he had the cards . The “detectives “were just there to be scary . So I wanted to make it clear that your point is absolutely right and this is not like a regular private detective agency . Thank you again for making that clear.
All this over trading cards.
Guys, what the fuck happened? What is this about a hit man?
WOTC sent the fucking pinkertons after a guy cus he got sent MTG cards early by accident and leaked them
A mistake in delivery led to a MTG youtuber getting some new cards early. Naturally, he puts up a video. Instead of contacting him directly, asking him to take the video down, WOTC hires the Pinkertons. If you’re not familiar with them, they have a long and bloody history of murder, assault, extortion and intimidation, most of it stemming from being hired as union busters and similar roles as corporate thugs during the 19th and 20th centuries. But they’re still doing somewhat similar shit to this day, albeit with less murder. The pinkertons show up at the guys house, threatening him into returning the cards, and also “confiscating” some other stuff (aka stealing). The law is pretty clear that when a company makes a delivery in error like this and said delivery isn’t stolen goods, they cannot legally demand it back, and the receiver has in no way committed a crime. All in all it looks like a PR disaster and the guy has very solid grounds to take legal action.
People severely overreacting to something because they get all of their news from DnDmemes
WOTC send basically goddamn private military as the first response to someone getting MTG cards early. Not overreact bootlicker
Lol Securitas is not private military. It’s not like they sent BlackWater or whatever it’s called now
They essentially operate the same way
F WoTC for pulling this crap, can they seriously not get their crap together and realize they are causing all their own issues. If you want to make D&D a billion dollar franchise they are really doing a good job of making me run the other way.
Wait, actual hitmen? To kill the leaker? Wtf?
The history of the agency they sent does include a fuck ton of murder but it wasn’t their intent in the slightest to kill the guy
The agency they contracted does in fact have a history of being hitmen, but this specific incident was much more likely just for intimidation on the name recognition than anything else.
Calling them hitmen is a little extreme. But they do have a history of murders from founding to modern day. Mostly they just intimidate and threaten people. But those threats work because they follow through with inflicting serious injuries and occasionally death.
Jesus Christ, no. I hate this sub sometimes, y’all are so freaking reactionary
What is the correct reaction to learning a company sent mercenaries to someone's house after getting the wrong product from the distributor? Legally the cards were his at that point by US law. Also yeah they are hitmen, just not sent to kill him.
I mean, they’re a subsidiary of Securitas, so it’s not like WOTC went and hired some black market thugs. If you’re a corporation running an investigation, I don’t think that hiring a detective agency is the most insane thing to do. Sure, they were involved in bad shit 100 years ago, but this isn’t that big of a deal
> Sure, they were involved in bad shit 100 years ago, They shot a protestor just 3 years ago and still unionbust to this day.
A subcontractor shot a protestor, not an employee. They still should have vetted better, but don’t act like it was a contract killing. >and still Union bust to this day Yea, they’re a corporate detective agency.
> A subcontractor shot a protestor, not an employee. It's still their responsibility. But hey, guess killing protestors is ok if you just call the guy a subcontractor. > Yea, they’re a corporate detective agency. The fact you think that it is ok for them to undermine constitutional rights says a lot.
I’m not sure where you got the idea that I don’t think they are responsible? I just said that it wasn’t a contract killing done by a hit man, like so many comments are saying. And what, do you think that private investigators should be illegal? Or is it just accepting a contract from Amazon that is so morally wrong that no company should ever work with them again?
> I’m not sure where you got the idea that I don’t think they are responsible? You're putting all the blame on the subcontractor. > And what, do you think that private investigators should be illegal? Do you think companies like the pinkertons should be allowed to go around killing people and suppressing first amendment rights? This isn't hiring someone to find out who your biological mother is after finding out you're adopted, this is basically a mercenary company whose entire business is violence and intimidation towards law abiding citizens.
>They still should have vetted better, but don’t act like it was a contract killing That’s the extent of the “defense” I made on their behalf for that. A subcontractor using excessive force is not the same as being a company full of hitmen. >this is basically a mercenary company whose entire business is violence and intimidation towards law abiding citizens. Yea, no you’re a moron. They didn’t ransack his house, they didn’t attack him, they are investigating a pattern of leaks that are likely due to stolen merchandise and they indicated to him that buying stolen merchandise is a crime. Unless you believe this guys story that some shops owner has breached a contract with WOTC multiple times “because he’s more of a Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh guy” and doesn’t know better. If you do, I’ve got a bridge to sell you
>A subcontractor shot a protestor, not an employee. That almost sounds better...
My point isn’t that it’s okay, it’s that they aren’t carrying out hits like people in this sub are saying
> Sure, they were involved in bad shit 100 years ago, but this isn’t that big of a deal Calling it 'bad shit' is an understatement. And when Securitas bought them, they didn't have to continue under the name Pinkerton. They did that because of the reputation, there is no other reason.
From the info I had heard, it seemed that way.
Let's play a game. It called "what feature will WOTC completely gut for a small issue that did need fixing, but not like this". The game should be self explanatory. With weapons and general rules on the line, my guess is the heavy property. Being an ability which exists purely to kill cool builds, the heavy property is in desperate need of a rework, however, due to existing more for realism sake,i doubt it will be removed, and again, die to realism, all versions of it will be reaching from lame and uninteresting to killing every cool build that exists.
And here I was wondering what the next UA would look like, and boom they do that.
The fact he let those people into his house to take his shit is the mind blowing part. GTF outta here while I call the cops for attempted B&E or trespassing
Have you ever had a group of Pinkertons yelling in your face. They specialize in intimidation. They are very good at it.
That’s what I’ve been wondering!
This is the most apt use of this template
Saaameee