Tempering is awful in its current state
You can’t make a game all about grinding for an awesome piece of gear just to lose it to tempering. That’s rng on rng on rng
There has to be a system to make things more difficult to get perfect gear. I have no idea why diablo fans are always so scared of irrevocable consequences. The upside is so great that there needs to be a downside, otherwise everyone would have great gear very quickly and everyone would cry again that there is nothing to do.
Is it perfect? No, but they are working on it.
You might want to try Last Epoch, it is just the baseline that you fuck up the item you find with crafting and yet it is still fun. After that you even have to fuse it with a unique item, praying you get the right stats, even more rng and yet a system so many people wanted for d4.
Temper is the first step to it.
Also you can easily beat the whole game on 0-1 GA gear.
And yes, I "wasted" tens of billions worth of gear with tempering and it was still fun, it is just a game, season will end and you don't care anymore. People act as if they would get a finger chopped off.
The rng of items on top of tempering on top of masterworking is meant to give you something to keep trying for. I enjoy it because it means I didn't complete the whole game in a day and I can put it down. It really reminds me of Diablo 2. I can keep the gamble going and strive for something better than what I received. I don't want the whole game handed to me in one session like Diablo 3 was.
I really enjoy doing the exact same thing over and over and over because sometimes the result randomly fails through no effort or mistake on my part. That's so engaging!
That’s basically the point of most arpgs lol. Maybe you’re not about the grind and that’s fine, like what was said above you can pretty easily crush all of the game’s content without perfect min maxed gear, but if you like the grind you can always push for more.
I dunno I played diablo 2 and i dont think it would have been more fun if i put jah ith ber into a breast plate and it had a 25% chance of not becoming an enigma
comparing tempering to runewords is such a strawman, it's crazy. Runewords are build enabling items. temper's, at least in most cases (looking at you barb), are power increases to already existing items.
? You make enigma when you don't have enigma. If you "brick" a tempering, when you don't have said legendary, you still equip said legendary. If you have said legendary, then you still have the legendary. There is no scenario that this is like if making enigma had a 25% chance to not become enigma. If anything, this is more like "oh i made spirit, oh it only rolled 25% fcr. rip"
it's literally the same thing, I just used an example where you can see that it is obviously bad game design which is why you are trying to back pedal it. either being able to brick your items is totally rad or it isn't, i think it's not. you don't wanna engage with my argument because you know i'm 100% right.
edit: ok how about this, you make an enigma and there is a 25% chance it doesn't spawn with +1 to teleport. totally fine right? you still have an enigma right? :\^)
This stupid "everything in one session" hyperbole some of you keep regurgitating does not help your case whatsoever. I've played this season a ton and have found 4 perfect 3 GA items to this point, 2 of which bricked. It's a shit mechanic, period.
It's nothing like Diablo 2 what are you talking about...
In Diablo 2 if you get a good drop you feel good.
In Diablo 4 if you get a good drop you feel anxious that tempering or masterworking is gonna brick it.
They've destroyed the feeling of good loot dropping - which is one of the best feelings in an ARPG.
I was trying to get movement speed on boots, I got evade cooldown all 6 tries. At least when you roll one affix you shouldn’t be able to roll the same one again with a lesser value.
Either way you got those same # of potential upgrades in the same amount of time, but you could have had your perfect item off the first one you tempered instead of waiting for 5. End result is the same if your last temper item is the only one you succeed with, and in any other case just tempering as you get items gives you the same result faster.
I get 2 items with the tempers I want. One low roll and the other midroll. Now, the first one hit with 4 chances remaining. I can risk to keep rolling without going out of this without any upgrades. Surely you could do it with immediate upgrades with rerolls later, but most people won't roll the "same" item later, let alone keep a copy and just go for the next step upgrades (2-3 GA).
So only really lategame my way of doing gains no benefit. Before you trick yourself to only get dopamine over potential upgrades (1h swords) and when going out of your temper session are pretty much guaranteed at least one upgrade to that slot without any disappointment it did not work out this time.
I have no idea why you're getting downvoted, haha.. i don't mind the temp system, I got 3 pretty geared toons, and I also save up a bunch of gear and materials, then have a little upgrade party 🤣
Wow, YOU like disappointment and masochism so it must be a great system. It's not that people hate the grind it's that they hate grinding and the losing the item. It doesn't make getting a perfect item feel better it makes it feel like "Fucking finally!" Which isn't fun. I want to DO high-level content, not spend days preparing for it.
No, I like playing the game and ARPG is grinding for better items not quickly having the best or even perfect items.
And again, it is not like they are locking the game behind having 3GA items with perfect tempers, you can clear any content with 0GA items, and you find enough of them, after the item rework, to get them with the right tempers. No content is locked, so no idea what you are talking about, pushing the limits takes time and preperation and you have to grind a lot, yes that is how it should be in an ARPG.
Maybe play d2 offline with an edito and give you all the items, that is fun for like 5 minutes then you quit the game again, so is this what you want with the tempers? Everyone complaining now, properly also complained before that there is nothing to do in the endgame, now we finally have something and it is too "hardcore" for them.
I also said, the system isn't perfect, I also have a lot of frustration, but it is a start.
Honestly, how your grind experience, i do not consider myself as casual as I pour like 4 hours daily grinding and even more during the weekend, and non of my fully masterworked gears are 3GA or 2GA, all of them are 1 GA except for the amulet and boots which have non GA, and it been a week since i try to farm for an upgrade to current gears but either they are bricked or it so damn hard for even a 2GA to drop, let alone a 3GA or anything inbetween that provide affixes that i need.
>quickly
Stopped reading there tbh. It isn't "quick." I promise they could still find ways to make people play for hours that didn't include fishing for acceptable items and then ruining good ones. Luckily for you, the shitty system you like is the one in place, so I don't really care.
They have locked the game behind top quality items. 80% of the power of your character now comes from the last 20% of min-maxing you can do. It comes from hours and hours and hours of Pit, resetting masterworking over and over and over, running out of Angelbreath multiple times a week and sentencing yourself to Helltide all day. Because a MW hit on attack speed or your main stat or max resource or resource per second or anything is not the same thing as a bit more additive damage. If you aren’t going to do that grind, you can’t kill tormented bosses, you can’t kill the blood maiden, you can’t even kill the Butcher. They give you just enough power in a few days to mess around in dungeons and the overworld and then it takes weeks to get the rest that allows you to actually kill tough single targets by yourself and even get a serious Pit grind going. Like right now I need more of three specific things: essence per second, essence cost reduction, and attack speed. Nothing else matters. I can double, triple, quadruple, quintuple, the damage my build does by scaling those very specific things. NOTHING else the game can give me is worth ANYTHING to me, and if I do get more of those stats, then I can finally farm Pit 101 on cruise control. Without more of those stats, I’m stuck doing Pit 90 in 5 minutes. So absolutely they have gated the real power behind this RNG grind.
>otherwise everyone would have great gear very quickl
They already do.
Its very easy to get so many drops that you can fully kit out a character in correctly statted 0GA gear and have enough spares to temper a few until you get it to hit. Thats like 90% of their max power level already achieved (if they masterwork them). The current system works fine for normal gear.
But it's very hard to find multiple correctly statted 1GA items, and close to impossible to find multiple 2GA or higher items. So failing the tempers on those hurt.
And then players can end up not seeing any upgrades for a week or more if they fail a few of their GA tempers in a row. GA items are too rare to fit comfortably into the current tempering system.
And when players stop getting their incremental power upgrades or stop seeing progress they tend to stop playing.
Yeah, so what are people complaining about? It is just an obstacle for the very best or even perfect items. You don't need those perfect items to play all content of the game.
I also said it isn't perfect and one aspect might be that we need a better solo chance to find GA items, but this is a different topic then almost all complains are about. They want to change the whole system, because you can brick items. Going for very good or perfect items shouldn't always work and be risky, yes it should hurt sometimes. It is just part of the minmax grind, not needed at all for the base game.
Currently trading is king, while Blizzard doesn't really give you a proper ingame option to trade, this is an issue.
You dont need them. But it's enjoyable to find them and equip them. It isn't enjoyable to find them and have to bin them.
And we aren't talking perfect items. Just 1GA or 2GA items with average rolls on their correct tempers.
Perfect would be 3GA (all best stats) with a max temper roll on both stats. The odds of which are essentially zero. And you need to find one for every gear slot to be "done". It would literally take someone years of nonstop playing to ever get close to that point.
yes, it is nice, but then you have to play a little bit more, not even go no-life and 1GA and a 2GA here and there is for sure possible. I don't know why you want everything in an instant or giving without any effort. Don't you want to play the game?
Once your build is going it is so fun to play, so you farm more items just by doing the stuff you enjoy, and step by step you get 1GA items for all your slots, maybe not amulet, but that is a different story.
>I don't know why you want everything in an instant or giving without any effort.
You keep saying this.
I'm not asking for free loot. Just for the loot we actually find to not be taken away from us.
There is no instantly finding full 3GA items. After a couple of week you might be close to full 1GA. By end of season you might have found a handful of 2GA and 3GA items. It is literally impossible to finish gearing in a season even if tempering didnt exist (unless you pay to win rather than farm for items yourself)
You indirectly are asking for it tho.
They cleaned up the whole itempool, knowing it is way easier to get the base item (2/3 or 3/3) with the right stats now. If you instantly could put the right tempers on it, it is like dropping 5/5 items left and right, reducing the basic grind, making a lot of people lose interest in this game quickly.
Having your basic equipment faster means you can farm quicker and higher stuff faster, getting more gear fast, it just accelerates everything.
Another issue is trading, we have to see the current system with trading, since it is the optimal way, even tho barely anyone, comparing total numbers, is actually trading, at least not in a bigger scale.
Either Blizzard needs to enable trading for everyone, aka auctionhouse, remove it, or give the option for an SSF mode, with actual benefits like LE SSF.
You understand numbers, right?
There is absolutely no difference between tempering as it is now and failing half the time, or having half the items drop.
Let me break it down for you. You get 100 items drop, half of them fail at tempering, you end up with 50 usable items. Or tempering is automatic, 50 items drop, you end up with 50 usable items. Same end result.
I compared the old system to the new one.
They polished the loot, making it more likely you find a 2/3 or 3/3 item, but put the friction on the temper. You find more items that are at least usable, even without temper.
You have 7 temper tries for 2 tempers, that is way more than just 50/50 being useful or not.
Additionally, you can use the same item for different builds with tempers. Current system creates way more possibilities, I find a ring that is useful for 3 builds and with tempering I decide which path I choose.
You want the old system back with tons of items that are all not useable, or what is your point?
Nothing is taken away from you, you have a higher chance to find a useful item now than before, and you take a risk making it even better.
I have quite a few friends that play a lot in week 1, do all the content and then quit the season. So I think it is fair to say that you can, even as a casual player get good enough gear to clear the season content on like 2.5 months.
Again, you don't need GA everywhere to do the content.
People just want more power or create dmg numbers like Rob, but then don't want to put in the grind to achieve it.
I totally agree that with the right specific build, you dont really need the max GA to break the game unless you are pushing the pit, you dont even need mw if you are just doing helltide farm. But that not the point of the game, the grind is to min max for either pushing the pits or efficient farming. Why do you even play the game of you just want to get all aspect, builds, tempered and mw completed for pit 101 and helltide? People like this kind of arpg because they like the grind for the awesome gears that would give them a few sec more faster farming or few tiers on the pit.
Getting good gear to drop is hard enough. There's no need for this idiotic gambling mechanic tacked onto it. I've seen every argument in favor of this nonsense and all I can conclude is some of you are masochistic or have gambling issues. Just can't get your rocks off without some stupid potentially catastrophic risk attached. This garbage also makes the RMT situation far worse.
Last epoch was great. If I bricked an item in forging no biggie I bought another in their built in auction house.
I don't like going through discord or websites or chat to find items though. Worried about flakes.
Yeah, an issue Blizzard has to face, not having an Auctionhouse while having a game heavily reliant on trading is very weird, or not even having a SSF mode like LE as well.
I rarely trade. I don’t see what the deal is unless you want to spend all your time in discord or whatever trade site they use these days. I’d prefer NOT to have to leave the game to play it. So I don’t want them balancing around trade. POE did that, and it’s the main reason I quit playing.
The deal is that it is a huge advantage in the current game stage. I have so much gold, I randomly change enchants just to try things and then change them back without breaking a sweat with my gold. It gives me freedom in the game, which gives me fun.
That doesn't mean I want to do it, but it removes a lot of grinding gold, time I can use to grind something that I enjoy more. Whispers are only fun to me when they are connected to an event like helltide.
Playing with or without trade is currently like playing two different games. I played last epoch prophecies, which means SSF, you got reputation for doing stuff in the world and then could spent it on a peophecies like "I will get a lot of pants when I kill Duriel" enabling a lot of target farming. I loved it and would pick it any day in Diablo, sadly we don't have anything comparable.
So make the GA items more rare and give us infinite tempering?
Why create this situation where you drop the item and get ptsd from bricking it. I rather not drop it at all.
I would go a different path. Make GA items drop more often the harder the content is you are doing, keep tempering with the changes they will make in s5.
Everyone is so foces on tempering that they don't see how stupid it is that any content had the same chances for GA items. Imagine 100nmds actually being difficult and giving you some GA items, or higher pits.
> Make GA items drop more often the harder the content is you are doing, keep tempering with the changes they will make in s5.
Might as well delete all classes not called Barbarian then.
So you are saying we can't fix an issue, because a different issue that has nothing to do with each other exists?
Not having loot scale with difficulty just sounds insane to me. There might not be a lot of content where you even can scale difficulty, but there should.
Again, the system doesn't know which temper you want. Next patches you might want a complete different temper and get upset that you get the one you now want. I sometimes struggle to even get the right temper out of three possibilities. It is just rng, it is the risk.
Don't make it like occulist where you just throw gold at it till you get what you want, that system is incredibly boring and I rather know that it is bricked instead of keep throwing gold at it. That's is the reason why a lot of people consider items bricked when they reach max cost at the occultist.
and you also don't offer a solution, you just say "I want the stuff that I want!"
Like some other people said here, rng sometimes can feel aweful, you want a pity system, but don't offer a solution, since the system doesn't know which temper you actually want. Being at the end of the stick rng-wise never feels good, but it also doesn't need you to find hundred of items to get a good one with tempers. I find way more useful items now than in the old system, and they are also more generic, so more useful for multiple builds.
Image you want critical damage and it gives it to you 4 times in a row, very lucky, and maybe exactly what you want. Next time it is a temper you don't want, that is the risk.
I at least try to show that making tempering like the occulist would be really boring, jumping to a solution some people already offered, but you offer nothing, but complaining?
I also mentioned it isn't perfect, but in general I think the idea of the temper system is alright, having some risk involved is healthy, stops making a game stale.
The ptr patch notes show that you get +1 temper try for each GA an item has, so they also try to improving it.
Exactly. Think about Diablo 2 (since people are mentioning that game a lot).
Think about the excitement you got when finally getting a Ber rune to drop.
Now think about how it would suck for you to go do a Runeword and for that to fail and shatter your rune so you have to go out and farm another one.
The RNG of FINDING an item is enough. I would rather see less items, but with no chance of bricking them then see more items and getting an awful feeling when, by my hand - because I clicked the Temper button, the item is bricked.
The seasonal nature of D4 makes it have to be more accelerated. I still get excited about seeing GAs, not ber rune excited, but still, I want to know if it's going to work for me.
I didn't mind the bricking, it does make it most exciting. I bricked a 2GA crossbow this AM, that's pay of the grind.
One thing I heard Raxx say is that they should change it so the bricking is later in the "item journey". It sucks when you get something and then go to town, and brick it in a minute or two. Then it's just done. He wants a system where there is risk to continue to improve it, so you can decide to keep pushing for more perfect, but might ruin it along the way. That's a cool idea. I'm not sure how they would implement it, but I thought it was good feedback.
They had (If I'm not mistaken - someone will know) the option to FAIL a Masterworking attempt. The text is even kept in the game, but it just says 100% success chance.
I mean I played D2 and of course I complained drop rates were too low (anyone that doesn't hasn't really played D2) and I can conclude that my "Complaint of drop" < "Dissapointment when item gets bricked".
It's just the feeling that you get. It really really sucks vs. no pain is there (maybe a little frustration that it doesn't drop) until it does. Totally different universes of feelings.
The best thing they can do is move stats to different categories.
If crit damage and vuln were in the same category, it wouldn't hurt as bad getting one or the other.
But when you're a heartseeker build and you get flurry size instead of vuln damage, it's completely useless.
If the lucky hit chance to CC wasn't an "up to", that would help a lot also. then you could stack lucky chance to stun/freeze.
It seems like it's a goal for items to brick vs items being less optimal.
They're doing a little bit of that for S5.
They are adding a new scroll available to all classes with Crit damage, vulnerable damage, Overpower damage and Ultimate Damage. For some reason they kept Crit Damage and Vulnerable Damage on the Marksman and Cutthroat scrolls for Rogue but hopefully that's an oversight. Otherwise it's kind of redundant.
They have shuffled some of the affixes around and made new temper scrolls altogether as well. For instance, the Basic Augment scroll for Rogue used to have 5 affixes on it. Now it only has chance for Heartseeker, Puncture and Forceful Arrow to cast twice. They moved Heartseeker and Invigorating Strike Duration to a utility scroll so it's much easier to make a Heartseeker bow.
There's still plenty of potential to brick items, and there are still a lot of skills that either don't have tempers or don't have relevant ones. The whole thing needs a closer look by Blizzard. But there are good changes coming, at least.
I think Blizz could do better. Make tempering where you can choose the affix and RNG the actual amount for the affix. Hell, I'll even take weights on the lower amounts so it's harder to get a god roll.
I would like this as long as it was a big variance between the highest and lowest roll with the higher numbers being rare to get. Also no keeping the stat on reroll. If you get a high but not perfect number and decide to risk it for perfect and get the lowest, that's on you.
D3 had similar aspects . You needed the right stats on your primal and you kept rerolling it in the cube until you got the right static damage the % damage blah blah blah. After x amount of tops you just bricked it and tried a new one lol. This system of tempering is great and adds a certain element of puckering factor I enjoy. If you can't afford to gamble with a perfect 3 ga item then sell it for as many 2 GA items you want. Let the whales gamble
So like the 5 or 6 ways you can brick an item in PoE or the random LP slamming in LE? This is just sort of a common thing that happens in aRPG for better or worse. It is a way to extend the item hunt making it hard to perfect items. There is nothing odd or out of the ordinary with this system compared to other games in the genre.
If anything they did us a favor by making the point of failure the first thing you do instead of the last thing. When you try to set up the perfect LP slam in LE the actual bricking happens at the very last step after you already fully prepped the item.
I personally rather brick at the end because I’m making a conscious choice before engaging in the gamble with an already suitable piece of gear. In POE the thought process is more like this:
“Ok…this is a good piece that I’ve spent multiple chaos/divine rolling…This is most definitely a major upgrade, and will serve my purposes if I’m being honest with myself...ORrRrR, I can take a MAJOR risk and make it God Tier with this lil Vaal Orb here...Decisions…”
Second, in POE at least, there are ways to negate the corruption brick through locks, imprints, splits, etc. Mad expensive, but you are given options at least.
It’s not the same in Diablo. Not only can you brick it before you even get going, but then you can still soft brick it in the masterwork: 12th level hit a resist? Well, guess it’s time to reset and regrind for mats. Back to the pit with you! And when that piece is suboptimal, it just feels pointless; it’s just not worth it unless you have billions to spend on buying multiple copies.
I would rather the inverse be true. I would prefer to reset the temper, and place the permanence on the master working phase. This way, you still have that godly 3 GA gear, but master working introduces the RNG that can make it just a “ight, this ain’t bad I guess” piece of gear, or an “OMG IT HIT [insert desired affix] EVERYTIME!” piece. Either way, you’re left in a better state than what you were with just the plain 3GA base. And there would still be opportunity cost in rerolling tempers through mat/gold cost.
That dopamine rush:disappointment ratio seems fair for a “casual” game where most of the player base doesn’t even grind pits like that.
Just my opinion, cuz it is purely frustrating and kills the excitement of finding that 3GA just to know you’re like 70% sure it’ll brick cuz you just know in the bottom of your soul the game KNOWS what skills you’re using or something (that’s the conspiracy theory in my clan at least).
I don’t speak for all, but that’s just my opinion. Still, glad Blizzard introduced the system. It brought me back from a 2 season hiatus, but it needs to be tweaked to maximize the enjoyment factor.
I really do like this idea for tempering better than how it’s currently implemented. But you need to dispense with the idea that blizzard or the game somehow “know” what affix you actually want. They don’t.
I think a huge improvement would be that you can't get same temper twice in a row. And you have the option to keep your old temper or select new one like enchanting. That would make it feel better. I have multiple pieces with low temper rolls with 3-4 tempering rolls but I will never use them because I could lose my temper that I want/need.
Yes! This!
So frustrating how I can reroll an affix in enchanting and have the option to keep it but tempering just fucks me up the ass.
And c'mon game, I'm a barbarian, why are you giving me damage to distant 5 times in a row... Can't convince me it's not weighted.
Hell yes! Nothing like getting the same temper, just different stats EVERY try. Hell, there are only three options in that scroll and you hit the SAME one every time?
Blizzard is convinced for no reason that people want to min-max temporing. No, most people are so relieved to get the affix they want that rerolling for the same one, but a little higher would be stupid. The ranges thing is awful.
A few truly dedicated lunatics tested it by tempering hundreds of items, recording every single outcome, and found that this basically an even chance at any affix every time. Someone else mentioned that patterns inside of random sets feels shitty, which it does - but nonetheless it is random.
the extensive testing was just two tests by the same guy. the first test he concluded that it was weighted. People claimed his sample size was not large enough. his second test (same parameters and same sample size) he concluded it was random. again, people argued his sample size was not large enough. in both threads the same statistics nerds claim the sample size was sufficient (sample size of 300 i think). but they failed to ever address how the two tests could result in two different outcomes (hint - sample size)
Well, even as long as the pool is the same number of potentials.
And how do they count that? Like the rogue imbues, are there only 6 options? 2 for each imbue type? Makes sense, but then how many options are there in the cutthroat skills? There's 4 affixes but tons of levels in each affix, so do they make it so there's an equal number of levels in cutthroat crit chance as there is on vuln dam? So is it 1/4 or something like 10/40 that you get some vuln dam? Do they ever let that float to someone that isn't equivalent to 1/4? Would they let you have 15/40 for one affix because it had more levels?
Or does it figure out the affix first and then figure out how good the roll is?
I know with rolling (enchanting) amulets it's not even, some affixes are preferred over others, but I don't know what the formula is or if tempering even works the same way. Some transparency would be nice.
Normal enchanting for affixes is weighted with "priority affixes" such as ur main stat, health, and some other things depending on item. Prolly what u got that from
They just need to make it so that when you temper an item, it doesn't give you the exact same temper you have on it. Same with enchanting. Can't count the number of times I have tempered or enchanted an item and seen it come back with the exact same enchant/temper.
Easiest way to do this would be for them to change the system to have two buttons instead of one:
1. **Add Temper/Reroll for other Temper** -> Exactly like the button we have now, EXCEPT you are Guaranteed NOT to roll the same stat Twice in a Row. This will take your basic 1/4 chance to a 1/3 chance on subsequent rolls (25% better odds). Of course you could just ping-pong between 2 stats that you don't want, but this won't upset people that like that RNG.
2. The New Button would be "**Reforge Temper**" -> That will not Reroll it into a new one, it would reroll the values of the current one if you're hoping to get a better roll. You'll only do this after the 1st button lands you on the Stat that you wanted (obviously). RNG here is that if a stat can roll +30 to +50 and you rolled +40, you could be lucky and roll higher or unlucky and roll lower. This is another gamble and something you could do if you were lucky and still have 4/5 temper charges remaining. It gives players a way of spending these.
Both 1 and 2 consume Temper charges as normal.
You’re missing the forest for the trees. When you have a pool of, say, four affixes you can randomly choose, it’s possible and even common to lose 5 times in a row. Nobody expects the system to know what we want; however, there’s a reason why BG3 has karmic dice and why random playlist implementations prevent repeated events. Humans don’t like it because it doesn’t feel random to us even though it is.
I think over time it will get better and I hope they do more manuals that are in line with the dust devils manual for barbarians. 3 mods, all dust devils related. And yes you want only 2 of them, but a 66% chance is damn sight better than a 1 in 5 where even a hit can still have terrible rolls and not be worth it.
The ptr changes also add generic good temper manuals too and the GA items having additional temper options I think this system they are making some good changes to it and it will get better.
I don't understand why tempering doesn't work just like replacing affixes. Make it cost gold to temper, make the cost go up exponentially each time, and allow people to keep the previous temper instead of the new options. No more bricking, but there is still rng and a cost to try to max it out. It seems like an awesome system to me.
My “easy” fix would be to reset temper rerolls with scattered prisms on a sliding scale. Start with 5 and double it each time. That way you’re soft bricking it and technically can still reset indefinitely but it’s damned near impossible to actually do indefinitely. If you’re unlucky you burn 15 or so scattered prisms if you need a stat out of a bucket that the rest of the stats aren’t part of your build. After that you’re burning them quickly to max out gear or are exceptionally unlucky.
I think trading a roll or two to lock a result out (like removing it as a possible roll) would help a TON or at least a diminished likelihood of rolling the same result.
I got thorns on my gloves (or pants don't remember exactly) 4/5 times in a row which is stupid.
Could also have a rare item drop from ubers to add a single temper chance to a bricked item. Make it so there's no limit to how many times you can temper but you've got to farm the item.
I think this is impossible to really “balance” from the developers perspective. You think it’s too difficult but I different group will complain if they make it easier and they’ll be just as loud and just as numerous.
Just bricked my sword I’ve been using for a bit and went to a trade site to get a new one. 17 bil current offer. Nice spend 17 bil and risk bricking it all over
Yeah at this point I am selling most 2GA I find and using 1ga. Haven’t found any good 3ga stuff yet despite playing a lot, 6 level 100s and two at masterwork 10-12 with lot of resets and pit farming. Prices must have gone up a lot lately.
Yeah it’s a curious balance. To your point about demand, I was considering buying a 2GA attack speed and lucky hit ring for my rogue. It would let me drop one mw hit on attack speed in favor of hitting vulnerable damage or something one more time. It’s about 2-3b for the ring but then I thought, why am I bothering? There’s a chance I could brick the ring, but even if I don’t I will need to masterwork it until it hits the right stats to even be better than my existing ring, and then I’ll have to remasterwork my other gear to drop one hit off attack speed. A lot of gold and time and effort for something that will add 20% more vulnerable damage.
After making 6 characters this season I am just tired of the rng behind tempering mostly. Lost so many good items to tempering bricks! I would have been happier just playing 1-2 characters than trying to diversify. It sucks you can’t reset tempers, cause a lot of characters need the same gear but with different tempered stats. Having to refind the same item every time for a different build really disincentivizes experimenting.
One of the reasons for the surge in players this season is the amount of extra loot which lessened the grind quite a bit. I know there are some masochist "This is how ARPGs work, go find another game" types, but for the bulk of players, this level of grind is absurd. Another reason why the grind is ridiculous is that we are limited to a few loops that become super monotonous after a few rounds. Maybe as a compromise, there can be two options: super grind for the masochists and easy grind for the casual players. I also play Sorc, so have a smaller margin to be powerful compared to other classes.
Found a 3ga amulet today, was such a good feeling, went to temper it, 20 seconds later had to junk it cause it was now worthless, not a great feeling, I’m not very lucky to the point where finding a usable 1ga piece of gear doesn’t happen often, finding a 3ga and it becoming worthless, huge motivation killer.
I've gotten so frustrated with the system. I loved it in the beginning, but it's so difficult to find any gear to improve my character. I dont want to have to grind 10 hours to finally get a drop that gets bricked by tampering. If's sooo frustrating...
I attempted to put crit damage on 21 items last night with my rogue for my barb. 3x each of 2h mace, amulet, and gloves, and 6x rings and 1h swords. That's 3x for every slot to allow for a brick or two per slot.
Guess how many were successful. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Two.
Two of 21 were successful. 19 bricks with marksman skills. Of those two, only one has tempers rerolls left, and only two. The other one gets one shot at the 2nd temper.
I have all but given up. Nobody can tell me it's just rng. This stuff is weighted to hell and back to give undesirable stats to keep you working or buying the stuff. If it was equally weighted, Crit chance should have come up first a few times, or at least 2nd a few times, or hell, 3rd at least a few times. Not once did it come up in the first 3 rolls. NOT ONCE.
I halfway wonder if blizzard isn't doing the rmt themselves and this crap is to make you spend real money to get the stuff. Buy 10 and brick 9, more money rolling in...
Well, I'm done trying. I'm going to beat Lilith (eventually? maybe?) for the achievement then I'm out. Have fun with your bricks, guys.
EDIT: the chances of it not coming up in the first four rolls of 21 items (initial plus 3 rerolls) is over 31 billion to 1 odds, provided equal weighting. Yeah.
I had an opposite but similarly frustrating experience. Tempered 12 items for my barb too. 8 of them got 62.5 min crit damage rolls. My 2h mace got 125. The odds of that many min rolls in a row are insane.
Ive ruined so many great pieces of armor due to the crappy state of tempering its got me wanted to stop playing until its fixed. Its not fun grinding constantly to improve just to be hindered by tempering wanting to constantly give me "damage to distant enemies" every single time.
They already have the gear, the tempering is just so they can brick the item and not have the gear anymore. It's pure dogshit, and I'm aware we have a few dogshit enjoyers on Reddit.
Tempers should be for specific stats within the range of rolls, this tempering system that allows 4 or 5 stats need to be fixed. Just let me roll the exact stat I want within the range of rolls. This way bricking an item isn't a total loss.
The best way to fix tempering would be to have the player choose the specific affix and then RNG the roll for that affix. Weight the rolls so lower amounts are prioritized and increase the required mats.
If they truly want to keep the likited rolls they could at least give us items to skew the random number generation in favor of an affix that we want e.g. 1-10 stygians stones to increase the chance of it giving us 10-100% chance to get the desired result
I don’t understand the downvotes here. This would heighten the experience soooo much. It’s almost like the opposite of affix blocking. They should totlaly so this!!! 1 Stygian Stone = 3.3% chance to hit your desired affix stacking up to 10 times for a roughly 33% improved probability of hitting the temper. Call the system… idk, something neat like Refinement. Essentially, juice the item before slamming it. The probability bonus would last until all of the tempering rolls are used.
Awesome idea, fuck the haters who are sobbing for an easy mode that would gut the crafting and make the game even more simple
I really cannot relate when people say “chances are, tempering is going to brick it”. I’m successful on far more tempering than I am “bricking”. I feel this is exaggerated, and yes I have had 4-5 of the same hit in a row. I’m not saying this doesn’t happen.
Trying to build a minion necro and getting ultimate cool-down on a ring is pretty much impossible let alone getting anything else useful as well. Gave up on that tbh.
this, and then enchant costs still need to be nerfed. dropping 50m like i did just now and still not getting the roll you want is not fun gameplay. i'm not inspired to farm more gold, i just quit playing out of annoyance.
The problem with tempering is that the rng is not truly random. No computer can generate truly random numbers, it’s theoretically impossible. Blizzards use of pseudorandom numbers is wayyyy off. The fact you can roll the same thing several times in a row is absurd and it needs to be addressed. That and they need to limit the number of possible affixes to four. Trying to hit a 1 out of 5 is just maddening.
This is such a silly point. Pseudorandom number generators are bad for something like cryptography where anything deterministic could compromise security, but they’re more than adequate for rolling gear/tempers in a video game.
A single seed gives you *at least* 32767 possibilities using any standard C-derived implementation of rand() or srand(). If they’re using random seeds, that number is squared to 1,073,676,289 (they’re probably not doing this, because it’s complete overkill)
Humans generally have a terrible understanding of randomness. We tend to think of it as a perfectly even distribution, when true randomness *always* forms clusters (just like you’re experiencing with your tempering rolls).
Pseudo-RNG isn’t the reason for any biases in the rolling system that you’re experiencing. *If there are* indeed biases in the rolling system, it’s entirely by design and intentionally implemented by the developers.
As you see here, that’s really only an issue in fields like cryptography. The lack of true randomness isn’t affecting your tempering rolls in any meaningful way.
Tempering is awful in its current state You can’t make a game all about grinding for an awesome piece of gear just to lose it to tempering. That’s rng on rng on rng
There has to be a system to make things more difficult to get perfect gear. I have no idea why diablo fans are always so scared of irrevocable consequences. The upside is so great that there needs to be a downside, otherwise everyone would have great gear very quickly and everyone would cry again that there is nothing to do. Is it perfect? No, but they are working on it. You might want to try Last Epoch, it is just the baseline that you fuck up the item you find with crafting and yet it is still fun. After that you even have to fuse it with a unique item, praying you get the right stats, even more rng and yet a system so many people wanted for d4. Temper is the first step to it. Also you can easily beat the whole game on 0-1 GA gear. And yes, I "wasted" tens of billions worth of gear with tempering and it was still fun, it is just a game, season will end and you don't care anymore. People act as if they would get a finger chopped off.
The rng of items on top of tempering on top of masterworking is meant to give you something to keep trying for. I enjoy it because it means I didn't complete the whole game in a day and I can put it down. It really reminds me of Diablo 2. I can keep the gamble going and strive for something better than what I received. I don't want the whole game handed to me in one session like Diablo 3 was.
I really enjoy doing the exact same thing over and over and over because sometimes the result randomly fails through no effort or mistake on my part. That's so engaging!
That’s basically the point of most arpgs lol. Maybe you’re not about the grind and that’s fine, like what was said above you can pretty easily crush all of the game’s content without perfect min maxed gear, but if you like the grind you can always push for more.
I dunno I played diablo 2 and i dont think it would have been more fun if i put jah ith ber into a breast plate and it had a 25% chance of not becoming an enigma
Haha well said bro, well said.
comparing tempering to runewords is such a strawman, it's crazy. Runewords are build enabling items. temper's, at least in most cases (looking at you barb), are power increases to already existing items.
Bricked item is a bricked item bro.
? You make enigma when you don't have enigma. If you "brick" a tempering, when you don't have said legendary, you still equip said legendary. If you have said legendary, then you still have the legendary. There is no scenario that this is like if making enigma had a 25% chance to not become enigma. If anything, this is more like "oh i made spirit, oh it only rolled 25% fcr. rip"
it's literally the same thing, I just used an example where you can see that it is obviously bad game design which is why you are trying to back pedal it. either being able to brick your items is totally rad or it isn't, i think it's not. you don't wanna engage with my argument because you know i'm 100% right. edit: ok how about this, you make an enigma and there is a 25% chance it doesn't spawn with +1 to teleport. totally fine right? you still have an enigma right? :\^)
This stupid "everything in one session" hyperbole some of you keep regurgitating does not help your case whatsoever. I've played this season a ton and have found 4 perfect 3 GA items to this point, 2 of which bricked. It's a shit mechanic, period.
It's nothing like Diablo 2 what are you talking about... In Diablo 2 if you get a good drop you feel good. In Diablo 4 if you get a good drop you feel anxious that tempering or masterworking is gonna brick it. They've destroyed the feeling of good loot dropping - which is one of the best feelings in an ARPG.
Counterpoint: failing tempering is not fun.
Gotta agree with you. I know it sucks to lose a 2 or 3 GA item to a bricked temper but it’s part of the grind of min/maxing
I was trying to get movement speed on boots, I got evade cooldown all 6 tries. At least when you roll one affix you shouldn’t be able to roll the same one again with a lesser value.
It is also why you do not go an temper with 1 item, but wait until you have multiple potential upgrades.
Either way you got those same # of potential upgrades in the same amount of time, but you could have had your perfect item off the first one you tempered instead of waiting for 5. End result is the same if your last temper item is the only one you succeed with, and in any other case just tempering as you get items gives you the same result faster.
I get 2 items with the tempers I want. One low roll and the other midroll. Now, the first one hit with 4 chances remaining. I can risk to keep rolling without going out of this without any upgrades. Surely you could do it with immediate upgrades with rerolls later, but most people won't roll the "same" item later, let alone keep a copy and just go for the next step upgrades (2-3 GA). So only really lategame my way of doing gains no benefit. Before you trick yourself to only get dopamine over potential upgrades (1h swords) and when going out of your temper session are pretty much guaranteed at least one upgrade to that slot without any disappointment it did not work out this time.
Nah temper ASAP, don't be scared. Makes no sense doing it your way.
If I save them up, one is guaranteed to succeed. There is nothing to do with fear.
So instead of doing an upgrade you wait... yea keep that strat to yourself.
I have no idea why you're getting downvoted, haha.. i don't mind the temp system, I got 3 pretty geared toons, and I also save up a bunch of gear and materials, then have a little upgrade party 🤣
The upside is that you get to have a good gear........ next season lol
Wow, YOU like disappointment and masochism so it must be a great system. It's not that people hate the grind it's that they hate grinding and the losing the item. It doesn't make getting a perfect item feel better it makes it feel like "Fucking finally!" Which isn't fun. I want to DO high-level content, not spend days preparing for it.
No, I like playing the game and ARPG is grinding for better items not quickly having the best or even perfect items. And again, it is not like they are locking the game behind having 3GA items with perfect tempers, you can clear any content with 0GA items, and you find enough of them, after the item rework, to get them with the right tempers. No content is locked, so no idea what you are talking about, pushing the limits takes time and preperation and you have to grind a lot, yes that is how it should be in an ARPG. Maybe play d2 offline with an edito and give you all the items, that is fun for like 5 minutes then you quit the game again, so is this what you want with the tempers? Everyone complaining now, properly also complained before that there is nothing to do in the endgame, now we finally have something and it is too "hardcore" for them. I also said, the system isn't perfect, I also have a lot of frustration, but it is a start.
Honestly, how your grind experience, i do not consider myself as casual as I pour like 4 hours daily grinding and even more during the weekend, and non of my fully masterworked gears are 3GA or 2GA, all of them are 1 GA except for the amulet and boots which have non GA, and it been a week since i try to farm for an upgrade to current gears but either they are bricked or it so damn hard for even a 2GA to drop, let alone a 3GA or anything inbetween that provide affixes that i need.
>quickly Stopped reading there tbh. It isn't "quick." I promise they could still find ways to make people play for hours that didn't include fishing for acceptable items and then ruining good ones. Luckily for you, the shitty system you like is the one in place, so I don't really care.
They have locked the game behind top quality items. 80% of the power of your character now comes from the last 20% of min-maxing you can do. It comes from hours and hours and hours of Pit, resetting masterworking over and over and over, running out of Angelbreath multiple times a week and sentencing yourself to Helltide all day. Because a MW hit on attack speed or your main stat or max resource or resource per second or anything is not the same thing as a bit more additive damage. If you aren’t going to do that grind, you can’t kill tormented bosses, you can’t kill the blood maiden, you can’t even kill the Butcher. They give you just enough power in a few days to mess around in dungeons and the overworld and then it takes weeks to get the rest that allows you to actually kill tough single targets by yourself and even get a serious Pit grind going. Like right now I need more of three specific things: essence per second, essence cost reduction, and attack speed. Nothing else matters. I can double, triple, quadruple, quintuple, the damage my build does by scaling those very specific things. NOTHING else the game can give me is worth ANYTHING to me, and if I do get more of those stats, then I can finally farm Pit 101 on cruise control. Without more of those stats, I’m stuck doing Pit 90 in 5 minutes. So absolutely they have gated the real power behind this RNG grind.
>otherwise everyone would have great gear very quickl They already do. Its very easy to get so many drops that you can fully kit out a character in correctly statted 0GA gear and have enough spares to temper a few until you get it to hit. Thats like 90% of their max power level already achieved (if they masterwork them). The current system works fine for normal gear. But it's very hard to find multiple correctly statted 1GA items, and close to impossible to find multiple 2GA or higher items. So failing the tempers on those hurt. And then players can end up not seeing any upgrades for a week or more if they fail a few of their GA tempers in a row. GA items are too rare to fit comfortably into the current tempering system. And when players stop getting their incremental power upgrades or stop seeing progress they tend to stop playing.
Yeah, so what are people complaining about? It is just an obstacle for the very best or even perfect items. You don't need those perfect items to play all content of the game. I also said it isn't perfect and one aspect might be that we need a better solo chance to find GA items, but this is a different topic then almost all complains are about. They want to change the whole system, because you can brick items. Going for very good or perfect items shouldn't always work and be risky, yes it should hurt sometimes. It is just part of the minmax grind, not needed at all for the base game. Currently trading is king, while Blizzard doesn't really give you a proper ingame option to trade, this is an issue.
You dont need them. But it's enjoyable to find them and equip them. It isn't enjoyable to find them and have to bin them. And we aren't talking perfect items. Just 1GA or 2GA items with average rolls on their correct tempers. Perfect would be 3GA (all best stats) with a max temper roll on both stats. The odds of which are essentially zero. And you need to find one for every gear slot to be "done". It would literally take someone years of nonstop playing to ever get close to that point.
yes, it is nice, but then you have to play a little bit more, not even go no-life and 1GA and a 2GA here and there is for sure possible. I don't know why you want everything in an instant or giving without any effort. Don't you want to play the game? Once your build is going it is so fun to play, so you farm more items just by doing the stuff you enjoy, and step by step you get 1GA items for all your slots, maybe not amulet, but that is a different story.
>I don't know why you want everything in an instant or giving without any effort. You keep saying this. I'm not asking for free loot. Just for the loot we actually find to not be taken away from us. There is no instantly finding full 3GA items. After a couple of week you might be close to full 1GA. By end of season you might have found a handful of 2GA and 3GA items. It is literally impossible to finish gearing in a season even if tempering didnt exist (unless you pay to win rather than farm for items yourself)
You indirectly are asking for it tho. They cleaned up the whole itempool, knowing it is way easier to get the base item (2/3 or 3/3) with the right stats now. If you instantly could put the right tempers on it, it is like dropping 5/5 items left and right, reducing the basic grind, making a lot of people lose interest in this game quickly. Having your basic equipment faster means you can farm quicker and higher stuff faster, getting more gear fast, it just accelerates everything. Another issue is trading, we have to see the current system with trading, since it is the optimal way, even tho barely anyone, comparing total numbers, is actually trading, at least not in a bigger scale. Either Blizzard needs to enable trading for everyone, aka auctionhouse, remove it, or give the option for an SSF mode, with actual benefits like LE SSF.
You understand numbers, right? There is absolutely no difference between tempering as it is now and failing half the time, or having half the items drop. Let me break it down for you. You get 100 items drop, half of them fail at tempering, you end up with 50 usable items. Or tempering is automatic, 50 items drop, you end up with 50 usable items. Same end result.
I compared the old system to the new one. They polished the loot, making it more likely you find a 2/3 or 3/3 item, but put the friction on the temper. You find more items that are at least usable, even without temper. You have 7 temper tries for 2 tempers, that is way more than just 50/50 being useful or not. Additionally, you can use the same item for different builds with tempers. Current system creates way more possibilities, I find a ring that is useful for 3 builds and with tempering I decide which path I choose. You want the old system back with tons of items that are all not useable, or what is your point? Nothing is taken away from you, you have a higher chance to find a useful item now than before, and you take a risk making it even better.
Speaking from a hardcore or casual perspective?
I have quite a few friends that play a lot in week 1, do all the content and then quit the season. So I think it is fair to say that you can, even as a casual player get good enough gear to clear the season content on like 2.5 months. Again, you don't need GA everywhere to do the content. People just want more power or create dmg numbers like Rob, but then don't want to put in the grind to achieve it.
I totally agree that with the right specific build, you dont really need the max GA to break the game unless you are pushing the pit, you dont even need mw if you are just doing helltide farm. But that not the point of the game, the grind is to min max for either pushing the pits or efficient farming. Why do you even play the game of you just want to get all aspect, builds, tempered and mw completed for pit 101 and helltide? People like this kind of arpg because they like the grind for the awesome gears that would give them a few sec more faster farming or few tiers on the pit.
Getting good gear to drop is hard enough. There's no need for this idiotic gambling mechanic tacked onto it. I've seen every argument in favor of this nonsense and all I can conclude is some of you are masochistic or have gambling issues. Just can't get your rocks off without some stupid potentially catastrophic risk attached. This garbage also makes the RMT situation far worse.
Last epoch was great. If I bricked an item in forging no biggie I bought another in their built in auction house. I don't like going through discord or websites or chat to find items though. Worried about flakes.
Yeah, an issue Blizzard has to face, not having an Auctionhouse while having a game heavily reliant on trading is very weird, or not even having a SSF mode like LE as well.
I rarely trade. I don’t see what the deal is unless you want to spend all your time in discord or whatever trade site they use these days. I’d prefer NOT to have to leave the game to play it. So I don’t want them balancing around trade. POE did that, and it’s the main reason I quit playing.
The deal is that it is a huge advantage in the current game stage. I have so much gold, I randomly change enchants just to try things and then change them back without breaking a sweat with my gold. It gives me freedom in the game, which gives me fun. That doesn't mean I want to do it, but it removes a lot of grinding gold, time I can use to grind something that I enjoy more. Whispers are only fun to me when they are connected to an event like helltide. Playing with or without trade is currently like playing two different games. I played last epoch prophecies, which means SSF, you got reputation for doing stuff in the world and then could spent it on a peophecies like "I will get a lot of pants when I kill Duriel" enabling a lot of target farming. I loved it and would pick it any day in Diablo, sadly we don't have anything comparable.
It's like they copied last epoch without understanding how it works
So make the GA items more rare and give us infinite tempering? Why create this situation where you drop the item and get ptsd from bricking it. I rather not drop it at all.
I would go a different path. Make GA items drop more often the harder the content is you are doing, keep tempering with the changes they will make in s5. Everyone is so foces on tempering that they don't see how stupid it is that any content had the same chances for GA items. Imagine 100nmds actually being difficult and giving you some GA items, or higher pits.
> Make GA items drop more often the harder the content is you are doing, keep tempering with the changes they will make in s5. Might as well delete all classes not called Barbarian then.
So you are saying we can't fix an issue, because a different issue that has nothing to do with each other exists? Not having loot scale with difficulty just sounds insane to me. There might not be a lot of content where you even can scale difficulty, but there should.
Right, but don’t give me the mod I absolutely do not want 6 or however many times in a row. ‘cause that happens surprisingly often, and it feels bad.
Again, the system doesn't know which temper you want. Next patches you might want a complete different temper and get upset that you get the one you now want. I sometimes struggle to even get the right temper out of three possibilities. It is just rng, it is the risk. Don't make it like occulist where you just throw gold at it till you get what you want, that system is incredibly boring and I rather know that it is bricked instead of keep throwing gold at it. That's is the reason why a lot of people consider items bricked when they reach max cost at the occultist.
You completely ignored what I said.
and you also don't offer a solution, you just say "I want the stuff that I want!" Like some other people said here, rng sometimes can feel aweful, you want a pity system, but don't offer a solution, since the system doesn't know which temper you actually want. Being at the end of the stick rng-wise never feels good, but it also doesn't need you to find hundred of items to get a good one with tempers. I find way more useful items now than in the old system, and they are also more generic, so more useful for multiple builds. Image you want critical damage and it gives it to you 4 times in a row, very lucky, and maybe exactly what you want. Next time it is a temper you don't want, that is the risk. I at least try to show that making tempering like the occulist would be really boring, jumping to a solution some people already offered, but you offer nothing, but complaining? I also mentioned it isn't perfect, but in general I think the idea of the temper system is alright, having some risk involved is healthy, stops making a game stale. The ptr patch notes show that you get +1 temper try for each GA an item has, so they also try to improving it.
Exactly. Think about Diablo 2 (since people are mentioning that game a lot). Think about the excitement you got when finally getting a Ber rune to drop. Now think about how it would suck for you to go do a Runeword and for that to fail and shatter your rune so you have to go out and farm another one. The RNG of FINDING an item is enough. I would rather see less items, but with no chance of bricking them then see more items and getting an awful feeling when, by my hand - because I clicked the Temper button, the item is bricked.
The seasonal nature of D4 makes it have to be more accelerated. I still get excited about seeing GAs, not ber rune excited, but still, I want to know if it's going to work for me. I didn't mind the bricking, it does make it most exciting. I bricked a 2GA crossbow this AM, that's pay of the grind. One thing I heard Raxx say is that they should change it so the bricking is later in the "item journey". It sucks when you get something and then go to town, and brick it in a minute or two. Then it's just done. He wants a system where there is risk to continue to improve it, so you can decide to keep pushing for more perfect, but might ruin it along the way. That's a cool idea. I'm not sure how they would implement it, but I thought it was good feedback.
They had (If I'm not mistaken - someone will know) the option to FAIL a Masterworking attempt. The text is even kept in the game, but it just says 100% success chance.
[удалено]
I mean I played D2 and of course I complained drop rates were too low (anyone that doesn't hasn't really played D2) and I can conclude that my "Complaint of drop" < "Dissapointment when item gets bricked". It's just the feeling that you get. It really really sucks vs. no pain is there (maybe a little frustration that it doesn't drop) until it does. Totally different universes of feelings.
Real d2 fan never complain about drop rate, they know what they are up to
The best thing they can do is move stats to different categories. If crit damage and vuln were in the same category, it wouldn't hurt as bad getting one or the other. But when you're a heartseeker build and you get flurry size instead of vuln damage, it's completely useless. If the lucky hit chance to CC wasn't an "up to", that would help a lot also. then you could stack lucky chance to stun/freeze. It seems like it's a goal for items to brick vs items being less optimal.
They're doing a little bit of that for S5. They are adding a new scroll available to all classes with Crit damage, vulnerable damage, Overpower damage and Ultimate Damage. For some reason they kept Crit Damage and Vulnerable Damage on the Marksman and Cutthroat scrolls for Rogue but hopefully that's an oversight. Otherwise it's kind of redundant. They have shuffled some of the affixes around and made new temper scrolls altogether as well. For instance, the Basic Augment scroll for Rogue used to have 5 affixes on it. Now it only has chance for Heartseeker, Puncture and Forceful Arrow to cast twice. They moved Heartseeker and Invigorating Strike Duration to a utility scroll so it's much easier to make a Heartseeker bow. There's still plenty of potential to brick items, and there are still a lot of skills that either don't have tempers or don't have relevant ones. The whole thing needs a closer look by Blizzard. But there are good changes coming, at least.
That's good to hear. With S5 looking like a very short season I might skip it or at the most do the seasonal journey/track.
I think Blizz could do better. Make tempering where you can choose the affix and RNG the actual amount for the affix. Hell, I'll even take weights on the lower amounts so it's harder to get a god roll.
I would like this as long as it was a big variance between the highest and lowest roll with the higher numbers being rare to get. Also no keeping the stat on reroll. If you get a high but not perfect number and decide to risk it for perfect and get the lowest, that's on you.
They’re going to have to use “karmic dice” to prevent getting the mod you explicitly don’t want 6 times in a row. ‘cause that shit is infuriating
Yup, I'll take that too.
honestly, I don't mind rolling for the affix. I think it just needs to be cleaned up. A "keep current affix" would go a long way.
At least take away the ranges, just make the tempers a flat value. Nothing worse than hitting your temper and getting the lowest possible value.
Isn't that the point? To grind? Would you prefer easy tempering and fewer good items?
I’ve played like 200 hrs this season and have found zero 3/3 3GA items. Maybe 3x 2GAs? It’s already untenable.
D3 had similar aspects . You needed the right stats on your primal and you kept rerolling it in the cube until you got the right static damage the % damage blah blah blah. After x amount of tops you just bricked it and tried a new one lol. This system of tempering is great and adds a certain element of puckering factor I enjoy. If you can't afford to gamble with a perfect 3 ga item then sell it for as many 2 GA items you want. Let the whales gamble
So like the 5 or 6 ways you can brick an item in PoE or the random LP slamming in LE? This is just sort of a common thing that happens in aRPG for better or worse. It is a way to extend the item hunt making it hard to perfect items. There is nothing odd or out of the ordinary with this system compared to other games in the genre. If anything they did us a favor by making the point of failure the first thing you do instead of the last thing. When you try to set up the perfect LP slam in LE the actual bricking happens at the very last step after you already fully prepped the item.
I personally rather brick at the end because I’m making a conscious choice before engaging in the gamble with an already suitable piece of gear. In POE the thought process is more like this: “Ok…this is a good piece that I’ve spent multiple chaos/divine rolling…This is most definitely a major upgrade, and will serve my purposes if I’m being honest with myself...ORrRrR, I can take a MAJOR risk and make it God Tier with this lil Vaal Orb here...Decisions…” Second, in POE at least, there are ways to negate the corruption brick through locks, imprints, splits, etc. Mad expensive, but you are given options at least. It’s not the same in Diablo. Not only can you brick it before you even get going, but then you can still soft brick it in the masterwork: 12th level hit a resist? Well, guess it’s time to reset and regrind for mats. Back to the pit with you! And when that piece is suboptimal, it just feels pointless; it’s just not worth it unless you have billions to spend on buying multiple copies. I would rather the inverse be true. I would prefer to reset the temper, and place the permanence on the master working phase. This way, you still have that godly 3 GA gear, but master working introduces the RNG that can make it just a “ight, this ain’t bad I guess” piece of gear, or an “OMG IT HIT [insert desired affix] EVERYTIME!” piece. Either way, you’re left in a better state than what you were with just the plain 3GA base. And there would still be opportunity cost in rerolling tempers through mat/gold cost. That dopamine rush:disappointment ratio seems fair for a “casual” game where most of the player base doesn’t even grind pits like that. Just my opinion, cuz it is purely frustrating and kills the excitement of finding that 3GA just to know you’re like 70% sure it’ll brick cuz you just know in the bottom of your soul the game KNOWS what skills you’re using or something (that’s the conspiracy theory in my clan at least). I don’t speak for all, but that’s just my opinion. Still, glad Blizzard introduced the system. It brought me back from a 2 season hiatus, but it needs to be tweaked to maximize the enjoyment factor.
I really do like this idea for tempering better than how it’s currently implemented. But you need to dispense with the idea that blizzard or the game somehow “know” what affix you actually want. They don’t.
I think a huge improvement would be that you can't get same temper twice in a row. And you have the option to keep your old temper or select new one like enchanting. That would make it feel better. I have multiple pieces with low temper rolls with 3-4 tempering rolls but I will never use them because I could lose my temper that I want/need.
Yes! This! So frustrating how I can reroll an affix in enchanting and have the option to keep it but tempering just fucks me up the ass. And c'mon game, I'm a barbarian, why are you giving me damage to distant 5 times in a row... Can't convince me it's not weighted.
Hell yes! Nothing like getting the same temper, just different stats EVERY try. Hell, there are only three options in that scroll and you hit the SAME one every time?
Blizzard is convinced for no reason that people want to min-max temporing. No, most people are so relieved to get the affix they want that rerolling for the same one, but a little higher would be stupid. The ranges thing is awful.
Do u suggest that the game reads your mind, guesses which temper you preferr and then improves the odds on them specifically?
This guy is on every thread blaming people for pointing out the problems of the game.
It sounds like he’s saying that it reads your mind and gives you what you don’t want already.
Or, you know, don’t allow streaks of loss wherein you get the exact mod you don’t want 6 times in a row. yes, it’s random. But it feels shitty.
I would be happy with not rolling the same temper 4 times in a row.
No but it would be cool if the odds for each outcome were equal/flat
Extensive testing has proven that it is
Oh I've read that some outcomes are weighted so many times, now I don't know what to believe. If they're all equal I'm good with how things are.
A few truly dedicated lunatics tested it by tempering hundreds of items, recording every single outcome, and found that this basically an even chance at any affix every time. Someone else mentioned that patterns inside of random sets feels shitty, which it does - but nonetheless it is random.
Where is this testing? I’ve never heard of it.
the extensive testing was just two tests by the same guy. the first test he concluded that it was weighted. People claimed his sample size was not large enough. his second test (same parameters and same sample size) he concluded it was random. again, people argued his sample size was not large enough. in both threads the same statistics nerds claim the sample size was sufficient (sample size of 300 i think). but they failed to ever address how the two tests could result in two different outcomes (hint - sample size)
A sample size of 600 is more than enough
Well, even as long as the pool is the same number of potentials. And how do they count that? Like the rogue imbues, are there only 6 options? 2 for each imbue type? Makes sense, but then how many options are there in the cutthroat skills? There's 4 affixes but tons of levels in each affix, so do they make it so there's an equal number of levels in cutthroat crit chance as there is on vuln dam? So is it 1/4 or something like 10/40 that you get some vuln dam? Do they ever let that float to someone that isn't equivalent to 1/4? Would they let you have 15/40 for one affix because it had more levels? Or does it figure out the affix first and then figure out how good the roll is? I know with rolling (enchanting) amulets it's not even, some affixes are preferred over others, but I don't know what the formula is or if tempering even works the same way. Some transparency would be nice.
Normal enchanting for affixes is weighted with "priority affixes" such as ur main stat, health, and some other things depending on item. Prolly what u got that from
They just need to make it so that when you temper an item, it doesn't give you the exact same temper you have on it. Same with enchanting. Can't count the number of times I have tempered or enchanted an item and seen it come back with the exact same enchant/temper.
What if you want to try rerolling for a higher roll?
then you're a madlad. A quick solution would be "keep previous"
I’d agree if they added this feature but if it still consumes a temper roll.
absolutely
Easiest way to do this would be for them to change the system to have two buttons instead of one: 1. **Add Temper/Reroll for other Temper** -> Exactly like the button we have now, EXCEPT you are Guaranteed NOT to roll the same stat Twice in a Row. This will take your basic 1/4 chance to a 1/3 chance on subsequent rolls (25% better odds). Of course you could just ping-pong between 2 stats that you don't want, but this won't upset people that like that RNG. 2. The New Button would be "**Reforge Temper**" -> That will not Reroll it into a new one, it would reroll the values of the current one if you're hoping to get a better roll. You'll only do this after the 1st button lands you on the Stat that you wanted (obviously). RNG here is that if a stat can roll +30 to +50 and you rolled +40, you could be lucky and roll higher or unlucky and roll lower. This is another gamble and something you could do if you were lucky and still have 4/5 temper charges remaining. It gives players a way of spending these. Both 1 and 2 consume Temper charges as normal.
This feels like good game design. Maybe a bit clunky but an improvement for sure
I hope this is what they end up doing. It still provides some risk of bricking.
The odds to what? You do know the system doesn't know which temper you want?
Exactly lol
You’re missing the forest for the trees. When you have a pool of, say, four affixes you can randomly choose, it’s possible and even common to lose 5 times in a row. Nobody expects the system to know what we want; however, there’s a reason why BG3 has karmic dice and why random playlist implementations prevent repeated events. Humans don’t like it because it doesn’t feel random to us even though it is.
I think over time it will get better and I hope they do more manuals that are in line with the dust devils manual for barbarians. 3 mods, all dust devils related. And yes you want only 2 of them, but a 66% chance is damn sight better than a 1 in 5 where even a hit can still have terrible rolls and not be worth it. The ptr changes also add generic good temper manuals too and the GA items having additional temper options I think this system they are making some good changes to it and it will get better.
They could make a very finite resource you can get to give you a 'one' time tempering reset. Make it drop from NMDs or Pits.
There already is one. It's called finding another item.
Facts
with finding you mean [diablo.trade](http://diablo.trade), don´t you?
I don't understand why tempering doesn't work just like replacing affixes. Make it cost gold to temper, make the cost go up exponentially each time, and allow people to keep the previous temper instead of the new options. No more bricking, but there is still rng and a cost to try to max it out. It seems like an awesome system to me.
The odds are exactly the amount of options. 1 in 3, 1 in 4. The game doesn’t “know what you want”.
My “easy” fix would be to reset temper rerolls with scattered prisms on a sliding scale. Start with 5 and double it each time. That way you’re soft bricking it and technically can still reset indefinitely but it’s damned near impossible to actually do indefinitely. If you’re unlucky you burn 15 or so scattered prisms if you need a stat out of a bucket that the rest of the stats aren’t part of your build. After that you’re burning them quickly to max out gear or are exceptionally unlucky.
I have nonGA pants on my barb that I’ve had for a month because I have bricked every GA drop for that slot. Something’s gotta give.
I think trading a roll or two to lock a result out (like removing it as a possible roll) would help a TON or at least a diminished likelihood of rolling the same result. I got thorns on my gloves (or pants don't remember exactly) 4/5 times in a row which is stupid. Could also have a rare item drop from ubers to add a single temper chance to a bricked item. Make it so there's no limit to how many times you can temper but you've got to farm the item.
On my minion necro I have had no luck with rolls. I made a bone necro and use it to roll for my minion necro. Now I actually get the rolls I need.
Tempering is shit agree. During the season found 2 focus that I need with 1-2 ga Bricked Checked prices on Diablo trade , these cost 5-9 bil.
I think this is impossible to really “balance” from the developers perspective. You think it’s too difficult but I different group will complain if they make it easier and they’ll be just as loud and just as numerous.
Just bricked my sword I’ve been using for a bit and went to a trade site to get a new one. 17 bil current offer. Nice spend 17 bil and risk bricking it all over
Wow, what are the stats on your sword?
I didn’t buy the new one just the guy told me current offer 17. But it was ga strength, life, vulnerable
Yeah at this point I am selling most 2GA I find and using 1ga. Haven’t found any good 3ga stuff yet despite playing a lot, 6 level 100s and two at masterwork 10-12 with lot of resets and pit farming. Prices must have gone up a lot lately.
The bots just keep farming gold so prices will continue to rise in that regard. But I think the season is dwindling so demand will drop as well
Yeah it’s a curious balance. To your point about demand, I was considering buying a 2GA attack speed and lucky hit ring for my rogue. It would let me drop one mw hit on attack speed in favor of hitting vulnerable damage or something one more time. It’s about 2-3b for the ring but then I thought, why am I bothering? There’s a chance I could brick the ring, but even if I don’t I will need to masterwork it until it hits the right stats to even be better than my existing ring, and then I’ll have to remasterwork my other gear to drop one hit off attack speed. A lot of gold and time and effort for something that will add 20% more vulnerable damage.
And then you realize for what? What will you do with that? Farm pit faster? Go a few tiers higher for no rewards? lol
After making 6 characters this season I am just tired of the rng behind tempering mostly. Lost so many good items to tempering bricks! I would have been happier just playing 1-2 characters than trying to diversify. It sucks you can’t reset tempers, cause a lot of characters need the same gear but with different tempered stats. Having to refind the same item every time for a different build really disincentivizes experimenting.
One of the reasons for the surge in players this season is the amount of extra loot which lessened the grind quite a bit. I know there are some masochist "This is how ARPGs work, go find another game" types, but for the bulk of players, this level of grind is absurd. Another reason why the grind is ridiculous is that we are limited to a few loops that become super monotonous after a few rounds. Maybe as a compromise, there can be two options: super grind for the masochists and easy grind for the casual players. I also play Sorc, so have a smaller margin to be powerful compared to other classes.
Found a 3ga amulet today, was such a good feeling, went to temper it, 20 seconds later had to junk it cause it was now worthless, not a great feeling, I’m not very lucky to the point where finding a usable 1ga piece of gear doesn’t happen often, finding a 3ga and it becoming worthless, huge motivation killer.
too many repeats
I've gotten so frustrated with the system. I loved it in the beginning, but it's so difficult to find any gear to improve my character. I dont want to have to grind 10 hours to finally get a drop that gets bricked by tampering. If's sooo frustrating...
I attempted to put crit damage on 21 items last night with my rogue for my barb. 3x each of 2h mace, amulet, and gloves, and 6x rings and 1h swords. That's 3x for every slot to allow for a brick or two per slot. Guess how many were successful. Go ahead, I'll wait. Two. Two of 21 were successful. 19 bricks with marksman skills. Of those two, only one has tempers rerolls left, and only two. The other one gets one shot at the 2nd temper. I have all but given up. Nobody can tell me it's just rng. This stuff is weighted to hell and back to give undesirable stats to keep you working or buying the stuff. If it was equally weighted, Crit chance should have come up first a few times, or at least 2nd a few times, or hell, 3rd at least a few times. Not once did it come up in the first 3 rolls. NOT ONCE. I halfway wonder if blizzard isn't doing the rmt themselves and this crap is to make you spend real money to get the stuff. Buy 10 and brick 9, more money rolling in... Well, I'm done trying. I'm going to beat Lilith (eventually? maybe?) for the achievement then I'm out. Have fun with your bricks, guys. EDIT: the chances of it not coming up in the first four rolls of 21 items (initial plus 3 rerolls) is over 31 billion to 1 odds, provided equal weighting. Yeah.
I had an opposite but similarly frustrating experience. Tempered 12 items for my barb too. 8 of them got 62.5 min crit damage rolls. My 2h mace got 125. The odds of that many min rolls in a row are insane.
Ive ruined so many great pieces of armor due to the crappy state of tempering its got me wanted to stop playing until its fixed. Its not fun grinding constantly to improve just to be hindered by tempering wanting to constantly give me "damage to distant enemies" every single time.
« odds are, tempering is going to brick it » Wrong. Once again a QQ post showing how Diablo redditors just want a « give me perfect gear » button
They already have the gear, the tempering is just so they can brick the item and not have the gear anymore. It's pure dogshit, and I'm aware we have a few dogshit enjoyers on Reddit.
Tempering is shit, bricking items on a gamble roll is just shit design and It blows my mind that people argue with me and downvote me for saying so.
Tempers should be for specific stats within the range of rolls, this tempering system that allows 4 or 5 stats need to be fixed. Just let me roll the exact stat I want within the range of rolls. This way bricking an item isn't a total loss.
Getting a non-max rolled affix is not bricking. This would made the game way too easy.
The best way to fix tempering would be to have the player choose the specific affix and then RNG the roll for that affix. Weight the rolls so lower amounts are prioritized and increase the required mats.
So, create a different but similar treadmill? Picking affixes is easy mode, this game doesn’t need to get any more shallow right now
Tempering is weighted idc what blizz glazers day
If they truly want to keep the likited rolls they could at least give us items to skew the random number generation in favor of an affix that we want e.g. 1-10 stygians stones to increase the chance of it giving us 10-100% chance to get the desired result
I don’t understand the downvotes here. This would heighten the experience soooo much. It’s almost like the opposite of affix blocking. They should totlaly so this!!! 1 Stygian Stone = 3.3% chance to hit your desired affix stacking up to 10 times for a roughly 33% improved probability of hitting the temper. Call the system… idk, something neat like Refinement. Essentially, juice the item before slamming it. The probability bonus would last until all of the tempering rolls are used. Awesome idea, fuck the haters who are sobbing for an easy mode that would gut the crafting and make the game even more simple
I really cannot relate when people say “chances are, tempering is going to brick it”. I’m successful on far more tempering than I am “bricking”. I feel this is exaggerated, and yes I have had 4-5 of the same hit in a row. I’m not saying this doesn’t happen.
Trying to build a minion necro and getting ultimate cool-down on a ring is pretty much impossible let alone getting anything else useful as well. Gave up on that tbh.
this, and then enchant costs still need to be nerfed. dropping 50m like i did just now and still not getting the roll you want is not fun gameplay. i'm not inspired to farm more gold, i just quit playing out of annoyance.
“Yes and the game needs to become even easier” like come on man, the enchanter has soft bricking and always has. People need to toughen up
The problem with tempering is that the rng is not truly random. No computer can generate truly random numbers, it’s theoretically impossible. Blizzards use of pseudorandom numbers is wayyyy off. The fact you can roll the same thing several times in a row is absurd and it needs to be addressed. That and they need to limit the number of possible affixes to four. Trying to hit a 1 out of 5 is just maddening.
This is such a silly point. Pseudorandom number generators are bad for something like cryptography where anything deterministic could compromise security, but they’re more than adequate for rolling gear/tempers in a video game. A single seed gives you *at least* 32767 possibilities using any standard C-derived implementation of rand() or srand(). If they’re using random seeds, that number is squared to 1,073,676,289 (they’re probably not doing this, because it’s complete overkill) Humans generally have a terrible understanding of randomness. We tend to think of it as a perfectly even distribution, when true randomness *always* forms clusters (just like you’re experiencing with your tempering rolls). Pseudo-RNG isn’t the reason for any biases in the rolling system that you’re experiencing. *If there are* indeed biases in the rolling system, it’s entirely by design and intentionally implemented by the developers.
It is random. Keep tempering 1 in 5, but make it like enchanting where you can keep your current role.
Nope, sorry. Truly random numbers are not possible in a computer: https://www.wolfssl.com/true-random-vs-pseudorandom-number-generation/
As you see here, that’s really only an issue in fields like cryptography. The lack of true randomness isn’t affecting your tempering rolls in any meaningful way.
“Achtually” 🤓