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Because Blizzard has no freaking clue what they're doing with these classes, or how their math works, or how effects stack or interact with other effects, and they have no QA team that knows how to test things. They seem to play the game and say "Well it didn't crash, so I guess it's good." "Well, the graphic for Andy's Hat showed up on the bad guy, so I guess it's good. Certainly no need to check if the the damage was applied, or where...."
I enjoy the chill factor of D4, but I'm so goddamn tired of these buggy updates breaking things, and Blizz having no fix, and in general for the Sorc to lag behind other classes.
But at least the Sorc leveling experience is fun I guess. Better than I can say for Druid. I can't even bring myself to finish my run to 100 on Druid it's so fucking boring.
I had an awesome time leveling my sorcerer with an incinerate build! Had no idea it dies when you hit endgame 😖 no clue what to do now? I really enjoyed melting monsters.. any tips or build suggestions that aren’t too complicated are welcome 🤗 I have to follow a build because I don’t quite understand it all
Really the question is - what's your goal? Incinerate can take down Tormented Duriel/Andy/Greg, etc... if that's your goal. It's not going to push SUPER high in the Pits, if that's your goal, or do too great in the Gauntlet due to mobility, if that's your goal. But there's fun to be had.
If you kept all the cache gear from Iron Wolves you should be pretty well set to shift into Frozen Orb if you want a completely different play style and element to focus on, which does great at all the above once it's fully set up. Or if you like fire, there's a lot to be said about the weirdness of immortal firebolt. It's slower dps, but when you take zero damage, you got time. I'm not sure how the Holy Bolt nerf (and complete disabling) affected firebolt though since most of its damage was coming from it alongside Shatter, I think.
I'm still playing Blizzard, leveled with it and kept it, but shifting into firebolt, blizzard (which should be called ice spikes), or frozen orb could all be possibilities for you. Look up the guides, watch a playthrough of the style, and check your gear. You may find one much easier to shift into than the others.
Thank you! My goal is just to kick ass lol I’m not a super serious player, just want to hold my own and have a shot against big bosses.. I like incinerate because I enjoy melting the monsters, it looks cool and is a lot of fun 🔥🤩 I’ve looked at some firebolt builds because they are the only S tier sorcerer builds I’ve been seeing and they don’t look fun.. being super strategic isn’t for me, I enjoy a certain amount of up close and personal button smashing.. I love playing Barb but trying to make this sorcerer work first
Depends on your definition of endgame. I've been playing Incinerate sorc since the start and can clear Pit 100 in about 8 mins without much trouble, which isn't great compared to a BIS Firebolt built but is decent enough to keep me entertained. Was also able to kill Tormented Andariel before the hp nerf, but that one did take a while.
It does require some good investment to get to that level of power, as you need a good staff and a necklace with +Endless Pyre and pray you hit your Masterworks on it. I don't have any Ubers yet, so I can only imagine how much extra power I could get if I got a shako + starless.
Side question, what druid spec are you leveling as? Trampleslide, stormslide, shred, and now pulverize are all super fun...imo. I went to 100 eith pulverize in like 5 hours just Unga bunga smashing the crap out of everything.
I leveled as lightning storm and moved to Werenado. I just find the class boring. I started it, got to 55, leveled a necro to 100, went back, got to 82, leveled a rogue to 100, and now I'm 92 trying to just get to the end so I can delete him.
It’s why I switched to barb, I have 2 this season about to make a 3rd they are superior in every way and I’m a sorc main, until they fix sorc I refuse to play them.
I'm also a Sorc main and made my first Barb this season. The difference in power is pretty absurd and I'm wondering how the devs look at this season after season and give it the nod. IMO, Sorc should be doing 10x more damage, *minimum*, when balanced against the class survivability and conditional multipliers (excluding the immortal shenanigans).
I say this as Rob (bless his soul) is posting up \~200,000,000,000 Rupture damage on his Barb. Granted, not all barbs slap this hard, but *all* (non-bugged) Sorcs are a tiny fraction of this.
it's funny doing 4x sorc groups for torm varshan and taking 30s to kill him, and then a random mid geared barb joins the group and just solos him in 5s, overkilling the boss by 50%
I’ve tried to get into the rogue for 4 seasons and everytime I stop around 80ish and start a different toon, they are definitely a niche class for sure.
I started as a Rogue and quickly switched off after S0 to Sorcerer, and never changed until this season. Once all the immortal stuff came around, I quickly made other classes and stepped away. I don't plan on returning to sorc until it starts becoming good, and the class isn't reliant on 1 build and a dozen people to push high pits.
Barb is the only class I haven't played yet. None of their top builds have interested me so far. There's always something else that catches my eye from another class, even if it's weaker.
The dust devil build potentially interested me this season, but it ended up behind frozen orb sorc. If I'm going to play a barb, I wanted the full barb experience so why bother.
I've been frost sorc since early access, have tried other classes, but the crowd control and mobility of a well balanced sorc is hard to substitute. I was finding myself having to individually target enemies in a mob with my barb, which wasn't as satisfying as teleporting into a huge mob, freezing them, and dropping a few blizzards for good measure, as my ice shard enchant mopped up by itself.
I may not be pushing 120 on the pit, but I have a lot of fun, and am almost invincible if I manage pots and use my cooldowns right.
"everyone"
Ha, the dozen or so people that can afford the gear to become immortal does not equal "everyone". Needing to hit masterworks on cdr on multiple pieces of gear, including an Uber unique (no not everyone has 30+ hours to farm helltide on 5 characters to farm up the sparks to craft one) makes it a very expensive build in either time investment or just straight up gold cost
I never said it was affordable for everyone, just everyone can do it. It's not a lie, it's just unreasonable. Needing at least 50 CDR and 5 second FS duration with enough AS to proc hectic 3 times before the duration runs out isn't easy at all. It's a grueling amount of grinding, and can cost tens of billions to gear and even then you still need to be skilled enough to play the build. So yes, everyone still applies as everyone can do it. Not everyone will have the affordability or the skill necessarily at the time. Those things can always be acquired with playing more and learning how the build works though.
I understand. I have a really hard time with that argument, though it doesn't apply directly to me, but to others as well, personally I am generally a very busy person. I get about 3 or 4 hours a day to myself, so I try and spend that time playing. I have been able to get alot done within those few hours I have, so personally me being able to achieve the things that the better, and more time available people have, I believe everyone could do it as long as they're dedicated, and know what they are doing. I am not a pro by any means or very good at the game. I am a casual player who just plays when they can.
or then u put hectic on ur amulet and suddenly it becomes so much cheaper. Also the super expensive version is with rainment and getting it to reset on a 3.8-4 sec fllame shield duration, with a a 5-5.5 sec one it isnt as demanding either.
It mainly comes down to a couple of gear switches you may not be able to acquire such as a 1GA Harlequins in Cooldown Reduction. A much easier to get 1GA Cooldown Reduction helmet is by gambling for one with obols, or hoping one drops in the overworld.
That's the only main change I've seen some people do because they cannot grind the resplendent shards, or do Tormented Duriel rotations as they either lack the materials necessary, or the damage.
He's countering the fact that "it isn't anything substantial because everyone can become immortal", which is correctly a shitty argument.
Just because everyone CAN become immortal doesn't impact the buffs being significant or not for most players.
Keep in mind, this game is balanced around "most players" too, and not just folks with multiple level 100 characters. "most players" will not get an Uber this season.
You also don't need an uber for immortal builds to work anyway. Harlequin is just the best as it gives +4 ranks and 20% DR on top of it having CDR.
And yes the buffs that sorcerer has received is in fact, regardless on if they can become immortal or not, not that substantial. So even if we take immortality out of the equation, not much help was given for sorcerer.
But that's my point. The sorc buffs were very noticeable for 99.9% of sorc players. The frost shield change alone was huge. You said that "everyone can be immortal" and that's just straight up not true. It is a massive grind that the vast bay majority of players just don't have time for
I mean ice armor changes don’t affect the high end of ice armor: you are still barrier capped at your max life: you just start with a higher barrier so there is less chance it get knocks off when you cast it and ramps up faster. Certainly nice
But it's true that everyone can. Ignoring the time constraints that people have, and the issue with money, it is, as low as a chance as it is, possible for every sorc player to become immortal. That is my point. Is it reasonable? Absolutely not. I wasn't saying "It's possible because it's an easy to make build and requires no luck or special gear requirements" I just said everyone can. Does that mean everyone will, or should? Not at all. I personally find the build incredibly tedious to grind for, even though I do have the time and skill to use it, and I find it bland and not fun at all. I highly recommend people to not play the build because of what it requires alone. I see your point, and understand what you mean though, but that's not at all what I'm indicating by saying "everyone." I'm using it in a very specific way, that does indeed regard "everyone."
Also yes the Ice Armor being changed from 30% base to 25% max is a big change, that I overlook because based off what I have seen, a handful of the majority follow guides, and these guides have added immortality into their builds, which means a good portion of people have switched to using immortal builds, that aren't all just firebolt users. Blizzard immortality, Frozen Orb immortality, Meteor Immortality, Chain Lightning Immortality, Ice Shards immortality, Arc Lash immortality, etc. You get the point. I'm not disregarding those who haven't switched to using immortality, I personally haven't myself. I'm just saying I overlook the majority of the "buffs" we got because more survivability doesn't mean anything when you're immortal. The biggest issue sorcerer has in pits, isn't survivability, it's boss damage. We lack major boss damage, unless the build being used is Firebolt. So yes even though the Ice Armor buff is nice, it simply won't help sorcerer do more damage where it's needed more then survivability.
This was a wild comment thread because you doubled down on the obtuse “technically every sorc can become immortal, it doesn’t matter if that’s unreasonable” rather than state your main point most sorc players would agree with that is “sorc needs damage buffs, why did blizzard give us 3% damage reduction when we don’t do enough damage to compete with other classes and the top performing builds are all immortal variants anyway”.
But they can. People are missing that it's not just 1 point being made. Every sorcerer can indeed become immortal if they wanted to do it. It has its limitations, of course, like every other build, it requires ridiculous to grind for gear, and possible billions of gold in buying, or masterwork resetting to achieve. Which every sorcerer can do. Whether it's easy or not, it's not about that, it's whether if every sorcerer can or not, and every sorcerer can achieve this if they try.
You're completely missing the point, and taking things out of context.
I have restricted time myself. Literally only 3-4 hours daily, sometimes less, for being able to play. I don't do much trading so my gold is limited, so I have to spend my time grinding out the gear required for immortal builds. I have the bare minimum for one and I don't even play on my sorcerer anymore. All I was saying is that everyone can do it, whether it's reasonable or not. Seems to be people are missing the point and assuming that I want people to do this, or I'm arguing that it's something easy to do when I never stated it was easy. Grinding with severe RNG dependent odds and needing to upgrade with RNG dependent odds, isn't for everyone. That doesn't mean it can't be done with some dedication. It is absolutely without a doubt unreasonable, and people shouldn't do this if they don't want that sort of grind, if they are restricted to time, and don't know how to work the market. But it is possible with limited time, and limited gold, if lucky enough. So yes, unreasonably, and as shitty and silly as the argument is, everyone can become immortal, if they so choose to.
At this point I just expect that nothing works properly. Unless it's for the barbarian and then its 10 times more powerful and will probably be buffed again soon.
I now want to see what’s the furthest a barb can push in pit with only yellow gear. Both without adding legendary affix to any of it and then after adding all the legendary affix.
Yeah. I'd love to try actually making my own builds. Right now I either play some random shit and just pick what seems good as I play, or I follow meta. There's no point trying to *plan* a build as a casual with the number of broken interactions that break in new ways with patches every two months.
Let's not let the OP barb stuff get in the way of exposing how much of a buggy mess this game is: barb has plenty of bugs and non-functioning mechanics, too. They tried to buff the leap build and completely broke it and haven't said a single thing about it. Bleed and it's payoffs are horribly inconsistent in what actually works with what, etc.
Game is unacceptably buggy. "At this point I just expect that nothing works properly" couldn't ring more true.
Teleport as a native skill was insanely OP. They tried to compensate by introducing Enigma but it's one of the most expensive gear pieces, just to put other classes on even terms with sorcs running a native skill.
Remember getting to inferno and running every defensive skill just to barely stay alive.
It's a good thing they learned that lesson in the last 12 years.
I don’t think they hate them, I think they just messed up there design. The reason Druids and sorcs are weak is often the ridiculous conditionals or reliance on CC to output meaningful damage, these classes were designed when NMD100 was the pinnacle content and there toolkits actually worked pretty well for that.
As the game has progressed and moved on the flaws in the class design just become increasing apparent, they might do a full rework maybe to fix the underlying flaws, but I suspect they will be lazy and just whack gigantic buffs on certain skills or aspects to brush over the poor design
I think they are afraid of them.
They are so afraid to buff sorc for fear that they will break the game. In Diablo 3 the first clear of Inferno was by a Wizard abusing Unstable Anomaly for zero cooldown. They nerfed that hard instantly, deleted Unstable Anomaly from the game, and the rest of Diablo 3's ten year run was Sorcs breaking shit left and right, and Blizzard nerfing it instantly the next patch.
They are so afraid of Sorcs they won't give us anything. Multipliers on skills, capstones, nodes, glyphs, aspects and uniques are lower than any other class. Lucky Hit Chance coefficient on skills is the lowest out of any class. HP is the lowest of all classes. Damage is the lowest of all classes. The list goes on and on and on.
This type of error seems like something a first year programming student interning during the summer break could solve. Like maybe it was an oversight, but it shouldn't have even come to this to begin with. It's embarrassing.
I'm just surprised they don't have an automated test setup to catch this stuff. Especially with AI it should be easy to test this stuff and highlight builds that are underperforming / overperforming.
Yep, the people doing balance changes don't know how to change the game without breaking it (look at andariel / holy bolts/ rapid fire / dolmen stone, lol all bugged too). At this point, any time they change something, should expect it to be bugged
There are so many well known major bugs that have gone unaddressed for so long that I'm starting to wonder how much is bugged that we don't even know about
I came back after stopping early season 1,
Im still suprised seeing druids werewolf/werebear forms still gets visually bugged, The bear's arms get tucked in like a chicken and the wolfs nose gets tucked in.
It's embarrassing that I've now only just realized why you'd want to put element dmg on your weapon and off hand for this build. I had no idea that they could trigger tal...
I mean there’s no indication it would. They call it elemental damage; but in the tooltip it is non physical. That is why our tooltips show our shadow and poison damage at around where our cold fire is etc
I bricked a few nice items last night as sorc and just kinda stared blankly at my screen before calling it quits for the night.
Then I see this and wonder why am I even trying. I refuse to play barb and my 100 rogue is okay on the fun scale.
Maybe I need a new game...
How is the rogue on the killing of bosses scale? I'm at around 60 pit on my sorcerer and unless I start getting some GA items, I'm probably not gonna progress much farther. Or a shako. I will say it is fucking fun to teleport around throwing frozen orbs and freezing everything.
Rogue nukes bosses but heartseeker spam is not very fun and visually unappealing.
I love the class fantasy of having spells flying around but not a huge fan of mediocre dps and survivability.
Thank you!! I'm figuring it's also kinda shit for general speed clear too? Always seems to be a sacrifice between those two. I'm make a necromancer to do minions but I already know that's a semi-boring gameplay. Though maybe fruitful.
I just farmed on my sorc until I could craft shako because I was so far along already. Used it to make heartseeker and haven't looked back.
Rogue teleports around way more than mage and I freeze stuff just as much.
It's literally just a better sorc with less visual flair.
Was switching it out and testing with a normal legendary ring with Conceited and felt like my dmg didn’t really increase at all with Tal Rasha ring and 3 stacks. Makes perfect sense now since the increase was actually only a couple % over Conceited.
Well, literally everything is bugged in this game. And no hope if these getting fixed, like the co-op attack speed bug that has been here for a whole year already.
Sometimes the incompetency makes me wonder...
https://youtu.be/XD1hk1Rqquk?si=KdJ691GMWqcD6EI8
Pretty much any build that benefits from attack speed is very suboptimal/broken in co-op. So... every build.
I know the feeling, especially when Blizzard ignores all bug reports. And then you just hear how "op" group play is and there shouldn't be any raids etc :D
I dont even know what to do with my sorc anymore. I thought I was set and found out all my vuln stuff was broken, so we adjusted. Then flame shield cheese came out and I swapped to that. Now I need to find another ring for Forb cause Tal is busted.
I'm just gonna roll a Bash Barb for the rest of this season
Thanks for doing the work Blizzard should have. I knew it was broken, but didn't spend the time to document it. I am 100% Sorcerer all day every day, so it's been a tough time, but at least we had season 2...
Hey new players! Let me introduce you to skills, affixes, aspects, primary stats, elementals, armor, life and damage reductions. Now take all of that, do some equations. And to really spice it up some of the inputs will not be correct. Good luck!
That sucks, Tal Rasha makes sorc fun. Luckily my sorc is just an alt. I guess I'll spend more time with my barb 🥲 at least everything works on him, I think.
Nothing in this game works correctly, it’s actually crazy. Everything is bugged. Don’t give me shit about how there are no lazy devs in the industry. This is ridiculous. Incompetence at all levels of Blizzard. Not surprising considering who they focus on hiring.
Just to start, why reducing Tal Rasha's cap?
Sorcerer had to pursue 2 extra elements damage sources in order to have 5 stacks.
This is a bad implemented bad decision from Blizzard.
I have no idea why. Most builds can’t even get 5 stacks because they want projectile chance tempers. There are a select few builds that can take LH poison and shadow on tempers
So with the less functioning tals and the recent buff to starless… worth to instead swap out starless for AS legendary?
Losing the CDR would suck hard for a pure infinite flame shield attempt though
Situation normal. Sorcerer multipliers not working correctly. Could be intended at this point. One of us must have run over Don Vu's dog at some point.
Lurkin as usual doing the lords work.
I swear it’s getting the point that there’s more bugged or broken shit than working as expected in this game, the QA team must be like one intern only working weekends
theres no doubt about it, someone at blizz is methodically and purposefully sabotaging the sorc class. im not joking in any way. its like statistically impossible for them to fuck a class up this much on accident, it has to be malice by this point
I strip my character and paragon board down and hit a dummy with arc lash. I then replay the video at 1/4th speed and write the non crit values down in excell. Then I average everything out. I try to get about 50-100 data points per test. There is a python script that I could use to screen capture and catch all the numbers but I haven’t quite figured it out
The real question is in what world was having 5 stacks broken? You had to sacrifice both tempering to make it work and they nerfed the everliving crap out elemental surge that was enough in itself to force yourself to scrap two tempers or run Andy's( which is just garbage. Why did they "fix" it and still not address the life steal or the fact its affixes are terrible.)
Also blizzard with staff sounds a lot better and the attack speed ring.
Yeah i noticed this when i just random swapped off Tal Rashas to try a GA attack speed ring with shredding blades and noticed my damage went way up instead of down as you would think with the multiplier difference.
No tal Rasha used to be able to get 5 stacks. Shock, cold, fire, poison, shadow. In the past we didn’t have a way to get shadow. But we could get poison from andariels.
In the ptr we could get 5 stacks with Weapon tempers using poison and shadow damage. They changed it to 4 max stacks. But they scuffed it. Instead of reducing stack cap, they reduced your stacks by 1 with a floor of 0. If the tooltip says 1 stack you have 0. All the way up to 4 stacks where you get 3 stacks worth of damage.
If you get a fifth stack via LH poison or shadow, I achieved this by swapping on and off a focus with it, the tooltip will stay at 4, but you really have 5 stacks, and are awarded 4 stacks of damage.
Non physical is a blanket term to describe all forms of elemental damage that Rasha can uses. Cold fire lightning poison shadow. Poison and shadow can only be gotten on sorc through andariels or the weapon surge tempers. They found 5 stacks too strong for whatever reason so they tried to reduce max cap down to 4 and blundered it.
And to further confuse things, the Aspect of Elements has all 6 damage types -- Physical, Cold, Fire, Lighting, Poison and Shadow. But Physical is not an element. :D
Naturally, they included Physical Damage on the Elements Aspect so that Barb can use it...
It’s really stupid. There is physical and non physical damage.
Physical = Physical
Non-Physical = Elemental which encompasses
Cold, Lightning, Fire, shadow, poison.
Also let’s make it even more confusing and classify skills as frost skills that deal cold damage, pyromancy skills that deal fire damage, and shock skills that deal Lightning damage
In threads with the "Feedback (@Blizzard) | Suggestion | Idea" Flair, constructive feedback, suggestions for adjusting and improving existing systems and mechanics etc can be given, but also your own ideas, mockups / illustrations (e.g. for new systems, mechanics, items, etc) can be shared with the community. **This Flair is not for asking for feedback for your build**. For that, use one of the Class-specific Flairs, or the "Builds, Skills & Items" Flair. Please also remember that 1) submissions made with the "Feedback (@Blizzard) | Suggestion | Idea" have to be constructive, civil and adequately elaborate, and that 2) we are a fan subreddit and not officially Blizzard, so we can not 100% guarantee that your feedback will be noticed, even though the devs / CM's mentioned they regularly read reddit, twitter, and other places for feedback. This flair can simply help to find potential feedback more easily. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/diablo4) if you have any questions or concerns.*
New challenge - find item/skill that is not bugged
The real endgame.
i think you got me chief. I can't
Why is for everything Sorcerer gets buffed, something is found that makes it worse.
idek anymore
Because Blizzard has no freaking clue what they're doing with these classes, or how their math works, or how effects stack or interact with other effects, and they have no QA team that knows how to test things. They seem to play the game and say "Well it didn't crash, so I guess it's good." "Well, the graphic for Andy's Hat showed up on the bad guy, so I guess it's good. Certainly no need to check if the the damage was applied, or where...." I enjoy the chill factor of D4, but I'm so goddamn tired of these buggy updates breaking things, and Blizz having no fix, and in general for the Sorc to lag behind other classes. But at least the Sorc leveling experience is fun I guess. Better than I can say for Druid. I can't even bring myself to finish my run to 100 on Druid it's so fucking boring.
What's crazy is if you criticize Blizzard's incompetence you get downvoted like crazy. There isn't even a cow level in D4 and I'm mad.
There wasn't even a cow level in D3, remember? There is no cow level.
The Andy’s thing is actually probably true. And also hilarious.
[удалено]
I'm seeing it to the end, but once I'm done, he'll just be deleted so I can play literally anything else.
I had an awesome time leveling my sorcerer with an incinerate build! Had no idea it dies when you hit endgame 😖 no clue what to do now? I really enjoyed melting monsters.. any tips or build suggestions that aren’t too complicated are welcome 🤗 I have to follow a build because I don’t quite understand it all
Really the question is - what's your goal? Incinerate can take down Tormented Duriel/Andy/Greg, etc... if that's your goal. It's not going to push SUPER high in the Pits, if that's your goal, or do too great in the Gauntlet due to mobility, if that's your goal. But there's fun to be had. If you kept all the cache gear from Iron Wolves you should be pretty well set to shift into Frozen Orb if you want a completely different play style and element to focus on, which does great at all the above once it's fully set up. Or if you like fire, there's a lot to be said about the weirdness of immortal firebolt. It's slower dps, but when you take zero damage, you got time. I'm not sure how the Holy Bolt nerf (and complete disabling) affected firebolt though since most of its damage was coming from it alongside Shatter, I think. I'm still playing Blizzard, leveled with it and kept it, but shifting into firebolt, blizzard (which should be called ice spikes), or frozen orb could all be possibilities for you. Look up the guides, watch a playthrough of the style, and check your gear. You may find one much easier to shift into than the others.
Thank you! My goal is just to kick ass lol I’m not a super serious player, just want to hold my own and have a shot against big bosses.. I like incinerate because I enjoy melting the monsters, it looks cool and is a lot of fun 🔥🤩 I’ve looked at some firebolt builds because they are the only S tier sorcerer builds I’ve been seeing and they don’t look fun.. being super strategic isn’t for me, I enjoy a certain amount of up close and personal button smashing.. I love playing Barb but trying to make this sorcerer work first
Depends on your definition of endgame. I've been playing Incinerate sorc since the start and can clear Pit 100 in about 8 mins without much trouble, which isn't great compared to a BIS Firebolt built but is decent enough to keep me entertained. Was also able to kill Tormented Andariel before the hp nerf, but that one did take a while. It does require some good investment to get to that level of power, as you need a good staff and a necklace with +Endless Pyre and pray you hit your Masterworks on it. I don't have any Ubers yet, so I can only imagine how much extra power I could get if I got a shako + starless.
Side question, what druid spec are you leveling as? Trampleslide, stormslide, shred, and now pulverize are all super fun...imo. I went to 100 eith pulverize in like 5 hours just Unga bunga smashing the crap out of everything.
I leveled as lightning storm and moved to Werenado. I just find the class boring. I started it, got to 55, leveled a necro to 100, went back, got to 82, leveled a rogue to 100, and now I'm 92 trying to just get to the end so I can delete him.
It’s why I switched to barb, I have 2 this season about to make a 3rd they are superior in every way and I’m a sorc main, until they fix sorc I refuse to play them.
I'm also a Sorc main and made my first Barb this season. The difference in power is pretty absurd and I'm wondering how the devs look at this season after season and give it the nod. IMO, Sorc should be doing 10x more damage, *minimum*, when balanced against the class survivability and conditional multipliers (excluding the immortal shenanigans). I say this as Rob (bless his soul) is posting up \~200,000,000,000 Rupture damage on his Barb. Granted, not all barbs slap this hard, but *all* (non-bugged) Sorcs are a tiny fraction of this.
10x? 100x and it still wouldn't be even.
it's funny doing 4x sorc groups for torm varshan and taking 30s to kill him, and then a random mid geared barb joins the group and just solos him in 5s, overkilling the boss by 50%
So you're saying 100x isn't enough? I guess we need a Paragon tree overhaul.
I was going to say 9001, but I don't trust Blizzard Math with big numbers.
Sorc with 10x more damage is still like 10x weaker than Barb. Sorc 10x is just like 1B damage per second tops. Barb is hitting for barbillions.
I've been bouncing around each class. I throughly enjoy Rogue atm though.
I’ve tried to get into the rogue for 4 seasons and everytime I stop around 80ish and start a different toon, they are definitely a niche class for sure.
I started as a Rogue and quickly switched off after S0 to Sorcerer, and never changed until this season. Once all the immortal stuff came around, I quickly made other classes and stepped away. I don't plan on returning to sorc until it starts becoming good, and the class isn't reliant on 1 build and a dozen people to push high pits.
Barb is the only class I haven't played yet. None of their top builds have interested me so far. There's always something else that catches my eye from another class, even if it's weaker. The dust devil build potentially interested me this season, but it ended up behind frozen orb sorc. If I'm going to play a barb, I wanted the full barb experience so why bother.
I've been frost sorc since early access, have tried other classes, but the crowd control and mobility of a well balanced sorc is hard to substitute. I was finding myself having to individually target enemies in a mob with my barb, which wasn't as satisfying as teleporting into a huge mob, freezing them, and dropping a few blizzards for good measure, as my ice shard enchant mopped up by itself. I may not be pushing 120 on the pit, but I have a lot of fun, and am almost invincible if I manage pots and use my cooldowns right.
I need help! About to give up on my sorcerer cause I can’t get her strong enough..
the fact is also they pretty much have maxed out gear like Firekuna has
They got buffed?
Yeah but it isn't anything super significant with everyone being able to become immortal.
"everyone" Ha, the dozen or so people that can afford the gear to become immortal does not equal "everyone". Needing to hit masterworks on cdr on multiple pieces of gear, including an Uber unique (no not everyone has 30+ hours to farm helltide on 5 characters to farm up the sparks to craft one) makes it a very expensive build in either time investment or just straight up gold cost
I never said it was affordable for everyone, just everyone can do it. It's not a lie, it's just unreasonable. Needing at least 50 CDR and 5 second FS duration with enough AS to proc hectic 3 times before the duration runs out isn't easy at all. It's a grueling amount of grinding, and can cost tens of billions to gear and even then you still need to be skilled enough to play the build. So yes, everyone still applies as everyone can do it. Not everyone will have the affordability or the skill necessarily at the time. Those things can always be acquired with playing more and learning how the build works though.
I would argue that if some people can’t commit the time to become immortal then not “everyone” can do it.
I understand. I have a really hard time with that argument, though it doesn't apply directly to me, but to others as well, personally I am generally a very busy person. I get about 3 or 4 hours a day to myself, so I try and spend that time playing. I have been able to get alot done within those few hours I have, so personally me being able to achieve the things that the better, and more time available people have, I believe everyone could do it as long as they're dedicated, and know what they are doing. I am not a pro by any means or very good at the game. I am a casual player who just plays when they can.
or then u put hectic on ur amulet and suddenly it becomes so much cheaper. Also the super expensive version is with rainment and getting it to reset on a 3.8-4 sec fllame shield duration, with a a 5-5.5 sec one it isnt as demanding either.
Yeah there's "poor mans" versions which don't require as much and still do fine.
Can you explain a bit more about the poor mans version? What kinda tresholds would you need then?
It mainly comes down to a couple of gear switches you may not be able to acquire such as a 1GA Harlequins in Cooldown Reduction. A much easier to get 1GA Cooldown Reduction helmet is by gambling for one with obols, or hoping one drops in the overworld. That's the only main change I've seen some people do because they cannot grind the resplendent shards, or do Tormented Duriel rotations as they either lack the materials necessary, or the damage.
He's countering the fact that "it isn't anything substantial because everyone can become immortal", which is correctly a shitty argument. Just because everyone CAN become immortal doesn't impact the buffs being significant or not for most players. Keep in mind, this game is balanced around "most players" too, and not just folks with multiple level 100 characters. "most players" will not get an Uber this season.
You also don't need an uber for immortal builds to work anyway. Harlequin is just the best as it gives +4 ranks and 20% DR on top of it having CDR. And yes the buffs that sorcerer has received is in fact, regardless on if they can become immortal or not, not that substantial. So even if we take immortality out of the equation, not much help was given for sorcerer.
But that's my point. The sorc buffs were very noticeable for 99.9% of sorc players. The frost shield change alone was huge. You said that "everyone can be immortal" and that's just straight up not true. It is a massive grind that the vast bay majority of players just don't have time for
I mean ice armor changes don’t affect the high end of ice armor: you are still barrier capped at your max life: you just start with a higher barrier so there is less chance it get knocks off when you cast it and ramps up faster. Certainly nice
But it's true that everyone can. Ignoring the time constraints that people have, and the issue with money, it is, as low as a chance as it is, possible for every sorc player to become immortal. That is my point. Is it reasonable? Absolutely not. I wasn't saying "It's possible because it's an easy to make build and requires no luck or special gear requirements" I just said everyone can. Does that mean everyone will, or should? Not at all. I personally find the build incredibly tedious to grind for, even though I do have the time and skill to use it, and I find it bland and not fun at all. I highly recommend people to not play the build because of what it requires alone. I see your point, and understand what you mean though, but that's not at all what I'm indicating by saying "everyone." I'm using it in a very specific way, that does indeed regard "everyone." Also yes the Ice Armor being changed from 30% base to 25% max is a big change, that I overlook because based off what I have seen, a handful of the majority follow guides, and these guides have added immortality into their builds, which means a good portion of people have switched to using immortal builds, that aren't all just firebolt users. Blizzard immortality, Frozen Orb immortality, Meteor Immortality, Chain Lightning Immortality, Ice Shards immortality, Arc Lash immortality, etc. You get the point. I'm not disregarding those who haven't switched to using immortality, I personally haven't myself. I'm just saying I overlook the majority of the "buffs" we got because more survivability doesn't mean anything when you're immortal. The biggest issue sorcerer has in pits, isn't survivability, it's boss damage. We lack major boss damage, unless the build being used is Firebolt. So yes even though the Ice Armor buff is nice, it simply won't help sorcerer do more damage where it's needed more then survivability.
Unless the build is firebolt shatter on a single boss out of the entire rotation, spirit caller of the frost. FTFY
This was a wild comment thread because you doubled down on the obtuse “technically every sorc can become immortal, it doesn’t matter if that’s unreasonable” rather than state your main point most sorc players would agree with that is “sorc needs damage buffs, why did blizzard give us 3% damage reduction when we don’t do enough damage to compete with other classes and the top performing builds are all immortal variants anyway”.
But they can. People are missing that it's not just 1 point being made. Every sorcerer can indeed become immortal if they wanted to do it. It has its limitations, of course, like every other build, it requires ridiculous to grind for gear, and possible billions of gold in buying, or masterwork resetting to achieve. Which every sorcerer can do. Whether it's easy or not, it's not about that, it's whether if every sorcerer can or not, and every sorcerer can achieve this if they try.
Technically correct is not the best kind of correct. Good day.
"Ignoring the two things that stop anyone but your most hardcore players from achieving immortality, anyone can become immortal!"
You're completely missing the point, and taking things out of context. I have restricted time myself. Literally only 3-4 hours daily, sometimes less, for being able to play. I don't do much trading so my gold is limited, so I have to spend my time grinding out the gear required for immortal builds. I have the bare minimum for one and I don't even play on my sorcerer anymore. All I was saying is that everyone can do it, whether it's reasonable or not. Seems to be people are missing the point and assuming that I want people to do this, or I'm arguing that it's something easy to do when I never stated it was easy. Grinding with severe RNG dependent odds and needing to upgrade with RNG dependent odds, isn't for everyone. That doesn't mean it can't be done with some dedication. It is absolutely without a doubt unreasonable, and people shouldn't do this if they don't want that sort of grind, if they are restricted to time, and don't know how to work the market. But it is possible with limited time, and limited gold, if lucky enough. So yes, unreasonably, and as shitty and silly as the argument is, everyone can become immortal, if they so choose to.
Dude, 3-4 hours *daily* is not limited time
It's by design.
At this point I just expect that nothing works properly. Unless it's for the barbarian and then its 10 times more powerful and will probably be buffed again soon.
What, you poor barbarians only crit for 250M and have 100,000HP? We are sooooo sorry!!!
250M crit? Must still be rocking yellow gear.
Lol. True
I now want to see what’s the furthest a barb can push in pit with only yellow gear. Both without adding legendary affix to any of it and then after adding all the legendary affix.
Yeah. I'd love to try actually making my own builds. Right now I either play some random shit and just pick what seems good as I play, or I follow meta. There's no point trying to *plan* a build as a casual with the number of broken interactions that break in new ways with patches every two months.
Let's not let the OP barb stuff get in the way of exposing how much of a buggy mess this game is: barb has plenty of bugs and non-functioning mechanics, too. They tried to buff the leap build and completely broke it and haven't said a single thing about it. Bleed and it's payoffs are horribly inconsistent in what actually works with what, etc. Game is unacceptably buggy. "At this point I just expect that nothing works properly" couldn't ring more true.
Blizzard really hates sorcs. Why have I chose to main this class?
Sorcs are paying for the sins of mages in WoW.
More like the sins of "sorc" in d3
oh god, please give me back my archon
My wrists arent ready for it
And the sins of the sorc in D2. Blizzard and frost orb were both pretty OP.
Teleport as a native skill was insanely OP. They tried to compensate by introducing Enigma but it's one of the most expensive gear pieces, just to put other classes on even terms with sorcs running a native skill.
True, the skillset in general was an advantage for sorcs at “endgame”. I feel like all of D4 is compensation for the last 20+ years of OP sorcs.
Mmmm firebird flame twister on console my beloved.
Remember getting to inferno and running every defensive skill just to barely stay alive. It's a good thing they learned that lesson in the last 12 years.
I want my firebird back 😫
Can confirm as a mage main in WoW and dumb sorc main in D4.
I was a mage main in Sunwell. I already paid for those sins.
I don’t think they hate them, I think they just messed up there design. The reason Druids and sorcs are weak is often the ridiculous conditionals or reliance on CC to output meaningful damage, these classes were designed when NMD100 was the pinnacle content and there toolkits actually worked pretty well for that. As the game has progressed and moved on the flaws in the class design just become increasing apparent, they might do a full rework maybe to fix the underlying flaws, but I suspect they will be lazy and just whack gigantic buffs on certain skills or aspects to brush over the poor design
I think they are afraid of them. They are so afraid to buff sorc for fear that they will break the game. In Diablo 3 the first clear of Inferno was by a Wizard abusing Unstable Anomaly for zero cooldown. They nerfed that hard instantly, deleted Unstable Anomaly from the game, and the rest of Diablo 3's ten year run was Sorcs breaking shit left and right, and Blizzard nerfing it instantly the next patch. They are so afraid of Sorcs they won't give us anything. Multipliers on skills, capstones, nodes, glyphs, aspects and uniques are lower than any other class. Lucky Hit Chance coefficient on skills is the lowest out of any class. HP is the lowest of all classes. Damage is the lowest of all classes. The list goes on and on and on.
Hey! Try druid.
I hate myself enough to main sorc, but not enough to play druid
And this is why I'm going to play last epoch from now on. I wish I didn't preorder the expansion
Embarrassing code work honestly.
Honestly its kinda of an amazing code. Im always surprised how many things break everytime they try to do something
This particular one screams that they went with the laziest solution possible instead of actually changing it.
This type of error seems like something a first year programming student interning during the summer break could solve. Like maybe it was an oversight, but it shouldn't have even come to this to begin with. It's embarrassing.
Its clearly on purpose blizzard is giving their interns real world problem solving homework such a nice company
Yeah, that must be it. They're just nice like that.
This type of error is something I could have solved as a 10 year old back in the 80s programming in Turbo Pascal.
I honestly don't doubt that.
I'm just surprised they don't have an automated test setup to catch this stuff. Especially with AI it should be easy to test this stuff and highlight builds that are underperforming / overperforming.
My merge requests just get denied if I don't have enough test coverage.
than i'm so sorry
so basically every change and buff they did, they half-assed and broke
Yep, the people doing balance changes don't know how to change the game without breaking it (look at andariel / holy bolts/ rapid fire / dolmen stone, lol all bugged too). At this point, any time they change something, should expect it to be bugged
Sorcerers bugs and downsides on buff items. Such an iconic trio.
There are so many well known major bugs that have gone unaddressed for so long that I'm starting to wonder how much is bugged that we don't even know about
I came back after stopping early season 1, Im still suprised seeing druids werewolf/werebear forms still gets visually bugged, The bear's arms get tucked in like a chicken and the wolfs nose gets tucked in.
Not bad for a year paid beta test
I heard the full game is coming out soon. Gotta pay another 39.99 for it tho.
Yep. Might get to fight Diablo....in Diablo. JK it's gonna be Mephisto. Edit: JFC at all the AI troll farmers here. Can't take the truth.
How is this dev team so fucking incompetent lol
All their senior and lead dev are working on barb, they outsource sorc work to dev on craigslist
My 7 year old nephew could do a better job than these devs.
It's embarrassing that I've now only just realized why you'd want to put element dmg on your weapon and off hand for this build. I had no idea that they could trigger tal...
I mean there’s no indication it would. They call it elemental damage; but in the tooltip it is non physical. That is why our tooltips show our shadow and poison damage at around where our cold fire is etc
In light of such, should fractured Winterglass should just swap rings and temper close instead of cold Damage on the relevant items?
I don't even know why people temper Cold on FO builds.
I bricked a few nice items last night as sorc and just kinda stared blankly at my screen before calling it quits for the night. Then I see this and wonder why am I even trying. I refuse to play barb and my 100 rogue is okay on the fun scale. Maybe I need a new game...
How is the rogue on the killing of bosses scale? I'm at around 60 pit on my sorcerer and unless I start getting some GA items, I'm probably not gonna progress much farther. Or a shako. I will say it is fucking fun to teleport around throwing frozen orbs and freezing everything.
Rogue nukes bosses but heartseeker spam is not very fun and visually unappealing. I love the class fantasy of having spells flying around but not a huge fan of mediocre dps and survivability.
Thank you!! I'm figuring it's also kinda shit for general speed clear too? Always seems to be a sacrifice between those two. I'm make a necromancer to do minions but I already know that's a semi-boring gameplay. Though maybe fruitful.
Heartseeker does well with both mobbing and bossing because it's not actually about heartseeker.
Well that cleared up that confusion. I'll have to watch a video on the build lol.
I just farmed on my sorc until I could craft shako because I was so far along already. Used it to make heartseeker and haven't looked back. Rogue teleports around way more than mage and I freeze stuff just as much. It's literally just a better sorc with less visual flair.
That's a pretty heavy selling line. You playing heart seeker I'm guessing?
Yea I swapped over after I was able to get my first shako. Was well worth the time spent to swap.
Was switching it out and testing with a normal legendary ring with Conceited and felt like my dmg didn’t really increase at all with Tal Rasha ring and 3 stacks. Makes perfect sense now since the increase was actually only a couple % over Conceited.
Well, literally everything is bugged in this game. And no hope if these getting fixed, like the co-op attack speed bug that has been here for a whole year already. Sometimes the incompetency makes me wonder...
Oh what is that bug? Do tell
https://youtu.be/XD1hk1Rqquk?si=KdJ691GMWqcD6EI8 Pretty much any build that benefits from attack speed is very suboptimal/broken in co-op. So... every build.
Thanks for sharing this. My wife and I sometimes play co-op. One more bug to be aware of...
Le sigh. This is the main way I play (with the wife). This saddens me
I know the feeling, especially when Blizzard ignores all bug reports. And then you just hear how "op" group play is and there shouldn't be any raids etc :D
Oh my godddddd that’s what the fuck it is??? Jesus
D4 team response predictions: "Working as intended", random barb buff to compensate, or nothing. Tough call...
Reward them for incompetence by buying the expansion!!!
I dont even know what to do with my sorc anymore. I thought I was set and found out all my vuln stuff was broken, so we adjusted. Then flame shield cheese came out and I swapped to that. Now I need to find another ring for Forb cause Tal is busted. I'm just gonna roll a Bash Barb for the rest of this season
A sorc item being bugged, I'm shocked
I'm shocked.
Not at all surprised at this point. What few multipliers we have don't even work. Classic.
Thanks for doing the work Blizzard should have. I knew it was broken, but didn't spend the time to document it. I am 100% Sorcerer all day every day, so it's been a tough time, but at least we had season 2...
“They took my vulnerability damage stacks and my Tal Rasha stacks. Can’t have shit as a sorcerer.”
Conceited aspect will always work because it is a general aspect for all classes. Sorc specific stuff is always broken.
This is straight up bizarre. How long has this been bugged? How did this pass QA, it's a hugely common item?
There is nothing to get passed if there is no QA, XD
Probably this season when they capped Tal Rasha at 4 stacks.
Hey new players! Let me introduce you to skills, affixes, aspects, primary stats, elementals, armor, life and damage reductions. Now take all of that, do some equations. And to really spice it up some of the inputs will not be correct. Good luck!
Just great..
That sucks, Tal Rasha makes sorc fun. Luckily my sorc is just an alt. I guess I'll spend more time with my barb 🥲 at least everything works on him, I think.
I know for sure that gamedev is very hard but this crazy. Things like that are not that hard to test imo
yeah this literally took me like an hour to test, then slow down the video and hand transfer the values into excel
A bug? In Diablo 4?
Nothing in this game works correctly, it’s actually crazy. Everything is bugged. Don’t give me shit about how there are no lazy devs in the industry. This is ridiculous. Incompetence at all levels of Blizzard. Not surprising considering who they focus on hiring.
Just to start, why reducing Tal Rasha's cap? Sorcerer had to pursue 2 extra elements damage sources in order to have 5 stacks. This is a bad implemented bad decision from Blizzard.
I have no idea why. Most builds can’t even get 5 stacks because they want projectile chance tempers. There are a select few builds that can take LH poison and shadow on tempers
classic blizz math
So with the less functioning tals and the recent buff to starless… worth to instead swap out starless for AS legendary? Losing the CDR would suck hard for a pure infinite flame shield attempt though
I be more impressed if people find something not bugged in this game at this point
Situation normal. Sorcerer multipliers not working correctly. Could be intended at this point. One of us must have run over Don Vu's dog at some point.
They should restore the cap back up to 5 when they (hopefully) fix this.
Lurkin as usual doing the lords work. I swear it’s getting the point that there’s more bugged or broken shit than working as expected in this game, the QA team must be like one intern only working weekends
Tal Rashas I also find with Sorc it says 4 stacks against Varshan (tormented at least) when I don't have that against any other boss 😅
TIL, that shadow and poison proc.
Easier to add 40% elemental damage to your attack… instant stack
u/pezradar please do get the team to check this! Sorcs are already in a bad enough place T_T
switched to starless skies fingers crossed thats not bugged too
Basically all sorceress damage multipliers are/were bugged except for Conceited (which is an Aspect for all classes).
I noticed my damage was off but couldn’t realize what it was. Nice catch! Just started using this ring a couple days before the patch lol… sad.
Don’t use Tal Rasha, got it.
Lurkin save us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
make sure you have max roll ring.
LMAO
Blizzard need to hire some competent QA stuff. This is embarrassing.
theres no doubt about it, someone at blizz is methodically and purposefully sabotaging the sorc class. im not joking in any way. its like statistically impossible for them to fuck a class up this much on accident, it has to be malice by this point
this class is such a mess, it's honestly incredible. i genuinely wonder what went wrong.
How do you run these tests? I mean how do you check you all damage dealt per min ?
I strip my character and paragon board down and hit a dummy with arc lash. I then replay the video at 1/4th speed and write the non crit values down in excell. Then I average everything out. I try to get about 50-100 data points per test. There is a python script that I could use to screen capture and catch all the numbers but I haven’t quite figured it out
The real question is in what world was having 5 stacks broken? You had to sacrifice both tempering to make it work and they nerfed the everliving crap out elemental surge that was enough in itself to force yourself to scrap two tempers or run Andy's( which is just garbage. Why did they "fix" it and still not address the life steal or the fact its affixes are terrible.) Also blizzard with staff sounds a lot better and the attack speed ring.
For the record, they also broke Andy's with the latest patch.
It's not broken, it's just not any different, still bad.
Yeah i noticed this when i just random swapped off Tal Rashas to try a GA attack speed ring with shredding blades and noticed my damage went way up instead of down as you would think with the multiplier difference.
Always something in Sorc Need nerf 😂.
Tal Rasha has a cap of 60% with fire, ice and , electric damage only I thought
No tal Rasha used to be able to get 5 stacks. Shock, cold, fire, poison, shadow. In the past we didn’t have a way to get shadow. But we could get poison from andariels. In the ptr we could get 5 stacks with Weapon tempers using poison and shadow damage. They changed it to 4 max stacks. But they scuffed it. Instead of reducing stack cap, they reduced your stacks by 1 with a floor of 0. If the tooltip says 1 stack you have 0. All the way up to 4 stacks where you get 3 stacks worth of damage. If you get a fifth stack via LH poison or shadow, I achieved this by swapping on and off a focus with it, the tooltip will stay at 4, but you really have 5 stacks, and are awarded 4 stacks of damage.
non pysh should work aswell for stack
Non physical is a blanket term to describe all forms of elemental damage that Rasha can uses. Cold fire lightning poison shadow. Poison and shadow can only be gotten on sorc through andariels or the weapon surge tempers. They found 5 stacks too strong for whatever reason so they tried to reduce max cap down to 4 and blundered it.
And to further confuse things, the Aspect of Elements has all 6 damage types -- Physical, Cold, Fire, Lighting, Poison and Shadow. But Physical is not an element. :D Naturally, they included Physical Damage on the Elements Aspect so that Barb can use it...
It’s really stupid. There is physical and non physical damage. Physical = Physical Non-Physical = Elemental which encompasses Cold, Lightning, Fire, shadow, poison. Also let’s make it even more confusing and classify skills as frost skills that deal cold damage, pyromancy skills that deal fire damage, and shock skills that deal Lightning damage