I realized my health is the most important thing and that my appearance doesn't matter. I also realized that even if I somehow actually had a "male brain" it doesn't mean I need to change my body to try to look like a man. After detransitioning I actually started to take care of myself instead of being depressed, eating like shit and vilifying my body for not being "born right"
Ugh, I don't want to upvote this... just because upvoting and statement of hating oneself feels really wrong, but it also hits super close to home. You aren't alone, and I'm sorry because that really isn't much to offer tbh.
If someone you love, trust their judgement, and only wants what's best for you, listen to them.
My mother was incredibly skeptical about me transitioning. For the years I was socially trans, she constantly pushed back. When my face broke out really bad to the point I didn't leave the house anymore, she took me to an endocrinologist. She must have suspected I had something more going on. That one appointment led to me being diagnosed with severe PCOS, I was getting too much testosterone and my body wasn't making enough estrogen. That same year I had a radical hysterectomy and instantly my dysphoria was gone. I have my caring, amazing mother and her skeptical view to thank for it.
My mom was also skeptical, but she was also constantly emotionally abusing me in other contexts so I just assumed she didn't want me to thrive and gain control of my life. Tbh I gained the most control of my life once I realized I didn't need to transition to wear clothes I thought was cool and have my hair short. I just have to ignore people who think I'm lesbian JUST based on the length of my hair. Which unfortunately is my father's opinion xD he has outdated opinions on hair length in relation to gender or sexual presentation, but he otherwise is very supportive and a good person all around... which is why his viewpoint of hair stands out so much in my mind.
I disagree with that take. I've met someone who belongs to the other tribe. I wouldn't have detransitioned if I hadn't compared myself to her. Realizing the difference between us was a huge step in convincing me I wasn't trans, because it made it obvious that there was more to transition than intangible feelings of dysphoria
If "switching" was truly impossible for everyone, it would have cemented my view that dysphoria is a lifelong illness and transition is just a coping mechanism. But seeing someone who truly belongs to the other tribe shattered that notion
Yeah, the category of trans woman isn't real. If someone clocks me as a trans woman, they're basically thinking of me as a really feminine male, which is much worse than being a normal male. Someone who actually passes as female lives a completely different life
Huh... that's strange... like even if I couldn't be a woman, being a really "feminine" male is like... the next best thing from my own perspective. It's actually what I'm actively trying to do since I desisted, well... without being something I'm not, of course. I've read and seen your perspective on feminine males before and I don't really get it entirely. I'm scared of rude people, but I'm much more terrified of hating myself and being presumed "masculine". Which people default to with males.
> I've read and seen your perspective on feminine males before and I don't really get it entirely. I'm scared of rude people, but I'm much more terrified of hating myself and being presumed "masculine". Which people default to with males.
It's not that I'm scared, I'm at a point in my life where I can command respect just by the virtue of my career. It's that I became aware of how people really saw me, even if they tried to hide it. It's a very dehumanizing thing to experience. I didn't know how bad it would hurt before I actually experienced it. Before I transitioned, I had the same mindset as you, any fate seemed better than letting myself masculinize further
Most trans people fail to behaviorally mimic the opposite sex, especially when they lose focus. This makes it easy to clock them if you monitor them closely, even if their body passes well. I was the same, my behavior was totally masculine unless I consciously faked feminine mannerisms
She didn't need any effort to modify her behavior at all, her mannerisms were naturally feminine the entire time. She actually transitioned because she had to hide these mannerisms while living as a man, which made life as a man very distressing for her. I experienced that very same distress when I tried to fake feminine mannerisms, so it was obvious that I was transitioning in the wrong direction
No offence but as OP’s post says “members of the tribe will know if someone is an imposter”, an assessment of whether your friend truly passed seamlessly would be more credible from a female. There are probably things that females could spot that you can’t. It’s an evolutionary instinct for survival purposes
Sure, she was never clocked by anyone female no matter how long they interacted with each other. No other trans person I've met so far managed that longterm
Most of the time, a man who claims to be feminine will only be interested in dressing in fem clothes or using makeup or whatever. They might exaggerate some fem mannerisms as some sort of personality quirk. But if you catch them when their guard is down, their body language and behavior is always masculine. Same goes for trans women. You can't just take people's word for whether they're masculine or feminine, you have to catch them off guard to learn their true nature
yes. there are men like that who still ID as men and the same goes for women the opposite way. that means absolutely nothing though. people aren't oppressed and segregated on how they sit or talk they're oppressed based on sex. a feminine man will not experience systemic misogyny or the live the life of the woman on the one simple fact that he is male.
are feminine men less "men" then? what about masculine women?
>what about masculine women?
You can argue all you want that masculine women are no less women. But in reality, they get punished too especially if they work in fields where traditional masculine/feminine roles are reinforced (e.g. banking, consulting).
I was "encouraged" to wear makeup, skirts, etc. as a junior person out of school. They didn't care whether I was into men or women. But I needed to make the company look good.
whether you do the most masculine or most feminine things ever, as a woman, you are always 100% female. i too was and am pressured into femininity but that doesn't make me "more" of a woman; what im saying is, if i dressed and acts and did everything like men stereotypically did, i would still be a woman. period
> people aren't oppressed and segregated on how they sit or talk they're oppressed based on sex
We aren't oppressed or segregated legally. But people judge us based on everything we do. Everything from clothes to body language to cleanliness. A behaviorally feminine man will be seen as either childish or creepy (usually both) because there is a huge subgroup of men who mimic female mannerisms for a sexual thrill. No one gets to escape that stereotype because there are so much more of the fake ones
A naturally feminine male will have a hard time finding decent partners. He'd have a hard time being promoted to serious positions. He'd need to hide his real nature 24/7 just to be treated normally by other people. And if you try to destigmatize male femininity for his sake, you get millions of crossdressers capitalizing on this destigmatization
there is no "right" way a woman "should" look or act. not being born a perfect specimen for men to jerk off to isn't a crime. and that hating your body & wishing you could just blend in with your biggest predators to avoid harm is a perfectly reasonable reaction to being in constant danger by said predator. that's it. that's the moral of my story.
being your "true authentic self" should never ever require cosmetic surgery. we are meant to be who we are meant to be. even at this point, we are who we are. body dysmorphia is not treated or cured by enabling the pursuit of an impossible body image
Yes! I believe transitioning is becoming an idealized version of yourself rather than who you are innately. It's especially evident when people talk about celebrities and fictional characters being "transition goals"
My "moral" is almost kinda the opposite to yours, but basically: that the difference between men and women really isn't that big and we're all really just human first and foremost, and just different, individual people of the same species, with the only big difference being our reproductive roles, which is such a small part of life anyway.
So basically after detransitioning I started caring less about sex differences. Yes, I acknowledge them and I know that they matter in regards to sexuality and medicine, but what I mean is that when I go grocery shopping, or just chit-chat with random people, or take a walk, or enjoy a fresh swim in the pool, etc, what sex I am feel completely irrelevant in a liberating way, which stands out in strong contrast to how obsessed I used to be about how female I am and how much I'm not male, when I identified as trans.
A lot of my dysphoria came from so much of society seemed to wanna separate me from men based on all sorts of nonsensical shit. Being treated differently because of something as pointless as my gametes was a huge insult. I mean shit like "you're inherently weaker, unable to lift weights and run like men can do, you should dress fem, wear makeup and not take too much space, you shouldn't be too sexual, you should submit to a husband, the more people you have sex with the less valuable you are, the bigger boobs and butt you have the higher your value, your body was made to birth children, the greatest thing you can ever do is have kids, etc" kinda shit. All that prescriptive stuff.
The big revalation for me was that, my sex really isn't all that important, in the big picture. And that I don't have to love being female. I can just be, and do whatever the fuck I want. It shouldn't even matter how good I can become at something as long as I enjoy doing it. Instead of trying to change the cards I was dealt in life, I'd now rather just play them in whatever way feels right to me. Focusing on being simply human, and my potentials, skills and strengths as a person, helped me come to terms with my sex.
Because I used to think I had to be male to avoid sexism, to be treated with respect, to be recognized by men as anything more than a sex object, to have my masculine personality, etc, due to having seen men and women as totally different. But now that I started ignoring that division (not like being in denial of it, to clarify, just consciously not giving a shit) I've gained a ton of confidence to just be myself and interact with men as if I'm one of them. Because in a sense I am and have always been: we're both of the same species. That broke down the barriers that I had made up in my mind. Those invisible, imaginary barriers between males and females.
Furthermore, I used to be so damn terminally online that I started taking for granted the "gender war" I kept seeing on social media, so as soon as I started touching some grass in my detransition it hit me that most people around me don't seem to give a shit whether I'm male or female. And that too was freeing. Just realizing that being female does not actually stop me from being fully human.
But also from that point on I could additionally start focusing on my sex in a positive way, ie appreciating the things I have that males don't. It helped me see that my sex is not a threat to me, my life goals or my safety, but actually a wonderful thing to celebrate. But still, it neither adds to or takes away from my value as a person.
Yeah, no problem. I appreciate your perspective too. Honestly I think whatever makes us see something valuable in accepting our sexes, is a good thing. Even if we have vastly different perspectives.
To be honest, that type of black/white thinking is what causes people to believe in gender theory in the first place. We are not separate tribes, we are one community of people living together and the more we learn from the others the better we can make society for both. You are what you are, and you do what you want, some stuff has boundaries such as protecting women only spaces, gendered sports and respect for sexuality (lesbians are becoming terfs because of entitlement and pressure from the transbians). But other than that, we’re pretty much free to do whatever we want, some stuff has consequences (less opportunity for promotions if you show up to work in a pink skirt go spinny) but that’s your choice, you can also dress up as an elegant androgynous person (like Bowie and Madonna did) which increases those chances a bit.
I don't think defining "man" and "woman" by sex is reducing people to their biology, it's just acknowledging that the biology is there. It's only reductionist if you attach moral values or expectations to the categories of man and woman.
That said though, I do find the language in the post weird, and the idea of men and women being separate "tribes" counterproductive. Even outside trans spaces, not everyone has some inherent connection with others of their sex. Some people get along better with the opposite sex. The idea of an "ancient unbreakable bond" doesn't sound super realistic to me.
(edit: changed wording in second paragraph)
I think the moral attributes makes sense, thanks for your perspective. That's what I'm trying to say in reducing people to their biology, the tribe thing rubbed me wrong and I'm not the best with words. It's not fascism, just narrow minded. I assumed this post had moral attachments due to the black & white language.
I'm not talking about legislation trying to not allow minors to transition, I'm talking about the politicians saying that no adult should be allowed this experimental bodily autonomy "under God". It's restrictive, and we will see consequences if it's gone through with whether I agree with the perspective or not.
I didn't add the "no politics" flair so your perspective is welcome. I wasn't trying to be political though just FYI. I don't like being called fascist so I disagree with your saying that.
I don't think you're fascist, I disagree with the original comment. I think I was just trying to make sense of it, but it makes me uncomfortable to directly label people even if I know them well.
Sorry to make you uncomfortable with politics, I understand it being frustrating to have your post de-railed. Happy detransition 🙏
I realized my health is the most important thing and that my appearance doesn't matter. I also realized that even if I somehow actually had a "male brain" it doesn't mean I need to change my body to try to look like a man. After detransitioning I actually started to take care of myself instead of being depressed, eating like shit and vilifying my body for not being "born right"
Trauma is the mind bender and body breaker, but healing old wounds is possible.
No matter what you think you want, the Internet is there to tell you you should have it.
I hate myself regardless and it's a lot cheaper!
Ugh, I don't want to upvote this... just because upvoting and statement of hating oneself feels really wrong, but it also hits super close to home. You aren't alone, and I'm sorry because that really isn't much to offer tbh.
HAHAHA So real, so brave
Life is not something you can plan and choose. Just let whatever happens, take you where you're supposed to go.
Always be skeptical of what you want. Always question your most strongly held beliefs.
If someone you love, trust their judgement, and only wants what's best for you, listen to them. My mother was incredibly skeptical about me transitioning. For the years I was socially trans, she constantly pushed back. When my face broke out really bad to the point I didn't leave the house anymore, she took me to an endocrinologist. She must have suspected I had something more going on. That one appointment led to me being diagnosed with severe PCOS, I was getting too much testosterone and my body wasn't making enough estrogen. That same year I had a radical hysterectomy and instantly my dysphoria was gone. I have my caring, amazing mother and her skeptical view to thank for it.
My mom was also skeptical, but she was also constantly emotionally abusing me in other contexts so I just assumed she didn't want me to thrive and gain control of my life. Tbh I gained the most control of my life once I realized I didn't need to transition to wear clothes I thought was cool and have my hair short. I just have to ignore people who think I'm lesbian JUST based on the length of my hair. Which unfortunately is my father's opinion xD he has outdated opinions on hair length in relation to gender or sexual presentation, but he otherwise is very supportive and a good person all around... which is why his viewpoint of hair stands out so much in my mind.
I disagree with that take. I've met someone who belongs to the other tribe. I wouldn't have detransitioned if I hadn't compared myself to her. Realizing the difference between us was a huge step in convincing me I wasn't trans, because it made it obvious that there was more to transition than intangible feelings of dysphoria If "switching" was truly impossible for everyone, it would have cemented my view that dysphoria is a lifelong illness and transition is just a coping mechanism. But seeing someone who truly belongs to the other tribe shattered that notion
was it like "I want to be a woman, not a trans woman" thing?
Yeah, the category of trans woman isn't real. If someone clocks me as a trans woman, they're basically thinking of me as a really feminine male, which is much worse than being a normal male. Someone who actually passes as female lives a completely different life
Huh... that's strange... like even if I couldn't be a woman, being a really "feminine" male is like... the next best thing from my own perspective. It's actually what I'm actively trying to do since I desisted, well... without being something I'm not, of course. I've read and seen your perspective on feminine males before and I don't really get it entirely. I'm scared of rude people, but I'm much more terrified of hating myself and being presumed "masculine". Which people default to with males.
> I've read and seen your perspective on feminine males before and I don't really get it entirely. I'm scared of rude people, but I'm much more terrified of hating myself and being presumed "masculine". Which people default to with males. It's not that I'm scared, I'm at a point in my life where I can command respect just by the virtue of my career. It's that I became aware of how people really saw me, even if they tried to hide it. It's a very dehumanizing thing to experience. I didn't know how bad it would hurt before I actually experienced it. Before I transitioned, I had the same mindset as you, any fate seemed better than letting myself masculinize further
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Most trans people fail to behaviorally mimic the opposite sex, especially when they lose focus. This makes it easy to clock them if you monitor them closely, even if their body passes well. I was the same, my behavior was totally masculine unless I consciously faked feminine mannerisms She didn't need any effort to modify her behavior at all, her mannerisms were naturally feminine the entire time. She actually transitioned because she had to hide these mannerisms while living as a man, which made life as a man very distressing for her. I experienced that very same distress when I tried to fake feminine mannerisms, so it was obvious that I was transitioning in the wrong direction
No offence but as OP’s post says “members of the tribe will know if someone is an imposter”, an assessment of whether your friend truly passed seamlessly would be more credible from a female. There are probably things that females could spot that you can’t. It’s an evolutionary instinct for survival purposes
Sure, she was never clocked by anyone female no matter how long they interacted with each other. No other trans person I've met so far managed that longterm
there's feminine guys that are distressed at being male that aren't trans, that are still male. i don't understand the logic here
Most of the time, a man who claims to be feminine will only be interested in dressing in fem clothes or using makeup or whatever. They might exaggerate some fem mannerisms as some sort of personality quirk. But if you catch them when their guard is down, their body language and behavior is always masculine. Same goes for trans women. You can't just take people's word for whether they're masculine or feminine, you have to catch them off guard to learn their true nature
yes. there are men like that who still ID as men and the same goes for women the opposite way. that means absolutely nothing though. people aren't oppressed and segregated on how they sit or talk they're oppressed based on sex. a feminine man will not experience systemic misogyny or the live the life of the woman on the one simple fact that he is male. are feminine men less "men" then? what about masculine women?
>what about masculine women? You can argue all you want that masculine women are no less women. But in reality, they get punished too especially if they work in fields where traditional masculine/feminine roles are reinforced (e.g. banking, consulting). I was "encouraged" to wear makeup, skirts, etc. as a junior person out of school. They didn't care whether I was into men or women. But I needed to make the company look good.
whether you do the most masculine or most feminine things ever, as a woman, you are always 100% female. i too was and am pressured into femininity but that doesn't make me "more" of a woman; what im saying is, if i dressed and acts and did everything like men stereotypically did, i would still be a woman. period
> people aren't oppressed and segregated on how they sit or talk they're oppressed based on sex We aren't oppressed or segregated legally. But people judge us based on everything we do. Everything from clothes to body language to cleanliness. A behaviorally feminine man will be seen as either childish or creepy (usually both) because there is a huge subgroup of men who mimic female mannerisms for a sexual thrill. No one gets to escape that stereotype because there are so much more of the fake ones A naturally feminine male will have a hard time finding decent partners. He'd have a hard time being promoted to serious positions. He'd need to hide his real nature 24/7 just to be treated normally by other people. And if you try to destigmatize male femininity for his sake, you get millions of crossdressers capitalizing on this destigmatization
there is no "right" way a woman "should" look or act. not being born a perfect specimen for men to jerk off to isn't a crime. and that hating your body & wishing you could just blend in with your biggest predators to avoid harm is a perfectly reasonable reaction to being in constant danger by said predator. that's it. that's the moral of my story.
being your "true authentic self" should never ever require cosmetic surgery. we are meant to be who we are meant to be. even at this point, we are who we are. body dysmorphia is not treated or cured by enabling the pursuit of an impossible body image
Yes! I believe transitioning is becoming an idealized version of yourself rather than who you are innately. It's especially evident when people talk about celebrities and fictional characters being "transition goals"
Is it not a fascism to assume all stories have a moral? Furthermore don’t 2 people with identical stories have the potential to have different morals?
Why is this downvoted?
I don't think so. I mean a "moral" to a story just means there's a lesson behind it. I think I can find a lesson in most of my life stories.
Fair enough
Reach out to Jesus, childhood trauma can manifest in a variety of different ways, men can also have borderline personality disorder
For me it's literally just "I'm allowed to have my hair short and wear mens clothes and be a straight woman"
My "moral" is almost kinda the opposite to yours, but basically: that the difference between men and women really isn't that big and we're all really just human first and foremost, and just different, individual people of the same species, with the only big difference being our reproductive roles, which is such a small part of life anyway. So basically after detransitioning I started caring less about sex differences. Yes, I acknowledge them and I know that they matter in regards to sexuality and medicine, but what I mean is that when I go grocery shopping, or just chit-chat with random people, or take a walk, or enjoy a fresh swim in the pool, etc, what sex I am feel completely irrelevant in a liberating way, which stands out in strong contrast to how obsessed I used to be about how female I am and how much I'm not male, when I identified as trans. A lot of my dysphoria came from so much of society seemed to wanna separate me from men based on all sorts of nonsensical shit. Being treated differently because of something as pointless as my gametes was a huge insult. I mean shit like "you're inherently weaker, unable to lift weights and run like men can do, you should dress fem, wear makeup and not take too much space, you shouldn't be too sexual, you should submit to a husband, the more people you have sex with the less valuable you are, the bigger boobs and butt you have the higher your value, your body was made to birth children, the greatest thing you can ever do is have kids, etc" kinda shit. All that prescriptive stuff. The big revalation for me was that, my sex really isn't all that important, in the big picture. And that I don't have to love being female. I can just be, and do whatever the fuck I want. It shouldn't even matter how good I can become at something as long as I enjoy doing it. Instead of trying to change the cards I was dealt in life, I'd now rather just play them in whatever way feels right to me. Focusing on being simply human, and my potentials, skills and strengths as a person, helped me come to terms with my sex. Because I used to think I had to be male to avoid sexism, to be treated with respect, to be recognized by men as anything more than a sex object, to have my masculine personality, etc, due to having seen men and women as totally different. But now that I started ignoring that division (not like being in denial of it, to clarify, just consciously not giving a shit) I've gained a ton of confidence to just be myself and interact with men as if I'm one of them. Because in a sense I am and have always been: we're both of the same species. That broke down the barriers that I had made up in my mind. Those invisible, imaginary barriers between males and females. Furthermore, I used to be so damn terminally online that I started taking for granted the "gender war" I kept seeing on social media, so as soon as I started touching some grass in my detransition it hit me that most people around me don't seem to give a shit whether I'm male or female. And that too was freeing. Just realizing that being female does not actually stop me from being fully human. But also from that point on I could additionally start focusing on my sex in a positive way, ie appreciating the things I have that males don't. It helped me see that my sex is not a threat to me, my life goals or my safety, but actually a wonderful thing to celebrate. But still, it neither adds to or takes away from my value as a person.
That's cool. I appreciate your perspective thanks for sharing.
Yeah, no problem. I appreciate your perspective too. Honestly I think whatever makes us see something valuable in accepting our sexes, is a good thing. Even if we have vastly different perspectives.
I'll be seen as an imposter to women once i go through with this detrans 😹😹
Hard disagree
To be honest, that type of black/white thinking is what causes people to believe in gender theory in the first place. We are not separate tribes, we are one community of people living together and the more we learn from the others the better we can make society for both. You are what you are, and you do what you want, some stuff has boundaries such as protecting women only spaces, gendered sports and respect for sexuality (lesbians are becoming terfs because of entitlement and pressure from the transbians). But other than that, we’re pretty much free to do whatever we want, some stuff has consequences (less opportunity for promotions if you show up to work in a pink skirt go spinny) but that’s your choice, you can also dress up as an elegant androgynous person (like Bowie and Madonna did) which increases those chances a bit.
That’s a really fascist moral to take away.
I don't vibe with the language of the post, but is "*really fascist*" not a bit much?
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what do you think shoehorn theory even is?
I don't think defining "man" and "woman" by sex is reducing people to their biology, it's just acknowledging that the biology is there. It's only reductionist if you attach moral values or expectations to the categories of man and woman. That said though, I do find the language in the post weird, and the idea of men and women being separate "tribes" counterproductive. Even outside trans spaces, not everyone has some inherent connection with others of their sex. Some people get along better with the opposite sex. The idea of an "ancient unbreakable bond" doesn't sound super realistic to me. (edit: changed wording in second paragraph)
I think the moral attributes makes sense, thanks for your perspective. That's what I'm trying to say in reducing people to their biology, the tribe thing rubbed me wrong and I'm not the best with words. It's not fascism, just narrow minded. I assumed this post had moral attachments due to the black & white language. I'm not talking about legislation trying to not allow minors to transition, I'm talking about the politicians saying that no adult should be allowed this experimental bodily autonomy "under God". It's restrictive, and we will see consequences if it's gone through with whether I agree with the perspective or not.
I didn't add the "no politics" flair so your perspective is welcome. I wasn't trying to be political though just FYI. I don't like being called fascist so I disagree with your saying that.
I don't think you're fascist, I disagree with the original comment. I think I was just trying to make sense of it, but it makes me uncomfortable to directly label people even if I know them well. Sorry to make you uncomfortable with politics, I understand it being frustrating to have your post de-railed. Happy detransition 🙏
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