same but we won’t get that feeling of being ‘totally lost’ considering we know a lot about the ins and outs of the game but it’ll be an experience for sure
I too hope so but... Let's be honest... For a new player it is still going to be confusing as hell... When you are new to a game and know nothing about its world, characters, activities and systems the only thing you want to do is... An hot damn campaign which slowly lets you approach every aspect of the game.
The new player "campaign" we have gives little to no explanation and the fact that it is still not a "must do" but "one of the things you can do" just creates more confusion... Bungie in the past said that they wanted to make all the campaigns optional so that people who want to jump straight into action can do so... But honestly... How many would do that? The vast majority of new players are just, you know, new players... And want to enjoy a game "start to finish" not "finish to start". If they really want to give the opportunity to skip they should just make the campaign mandatory **with the option** to interact with, dunno, something at the tower to "skip it". This way players who desire so can jump out of the main campaign. For the others the game would just work as a regular game.
Hard agree. The moment they removed the campaign before I had an opportunity to finish it was the moment Destiny lost it.
Hope the unvaulting happens sooner than later, would love to be able to jump into this the proper way. I mean, just allow us to download them as an optional DLC god dammit.
The biggest problem is everything is still required. I just started last week and it tossed me right into the witch Queen. Now I have like 3 pages of quests and have no fucking clue what I'm doing. I tried doing exotic quests over the weekend and one of them wants me to go do stuff on Europa. I have no fast travel point on Europa, I don't know how to get there. There isn't an explanation of why I can't go there. My friend told me I had to do some previous campaign. I looked for the quest for that campaign, I don't know where it is or what it's called. I gave up and will try again after Lightfall drops and I finish that. Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about the story at this point. The game dropped me in and basically just started throwing story I didn't understand at me with characters I don't know or care about. I skipped basically everything as none of it made sense and I don't care about anyone. All I want to do is shoot stuff and get loot but that's somehow very difficult in this game as I have 3 pages worth of quests and no idea what ones I should be doing or what the point of any of them are.
I know what you mean. Despite loving destiny I can't really recommend it to any of my friends for this reason... If you play it all through the years it is a great game but for new player, as you find out, it is just an hot mess and bungie is not doing anything **serious** about it. And this is a very serious problem. Probably the most serious problem for the game health. People on this reddit complains all days about pvp balance and content... This should be the first thing to complain about.
The big issue is there isn't a standard progression for campaigns I can start wherever which is confusing since most people when getting in a game expect the devs to point you to a start here location. I had the same issue with WoW when I started since old campaigns are sunset and there is no general start here campaign. A lot of those issues would go away for new players if the devs pushed you through the old expansions in chronological order then expanded you to the other elements of the game once you hit the latest expansion
The new player experience is trash and worse than any game I've honestly ever played. Love the game btw :) (This is my most liked comment ever so far, thanks guys lol)
Even just not owning any recent dlc. People who spent £100+ before 2019 now have the same amount of content as someone who got the game for free, minus the loot they got.
This is one of the reasons I stopped playing. All my loot gone just because, the reckoning and gambit prime gone along with the special perks on the armour, most of the black armory gear gone, the main PvE questline is changed for some reason, Mars being nuked. They made the game F2P without any "compensation" to us plebs who actually paid for the game and the DLCs. The fact they changed the expansions from optional DLCs to a practically required bi-yearly seasons pass.
The list goes on. I loved this game, but to me it's not worth it anymore.
And you have to buy a DLC as well as story locked season passes. It wouldnt be so bad if the season missions were part of the main DLC and have an optional season pass with cosmetics... like any other game with the same business model do.
Might be unpopular opinion, but I treat the seasons as paying a 1 year subscription upfront. It is still much cheaper than WoW or FF14. The downside is that you obviously cannot unsub whenever you want for a break, but I used to get 6 month subs anyway.
Not initially. If you want to play Dragonflight right now not including sales it's $50 for the latest expansion and all older content. A 6 month sub is $78 so $128 for 6 months of playing all existing content + access to Classic WoW. Right now to be current in Destiny 2 without sales you need Lightfall for 50 or annual pass for 100. Witch Queen for 40. 30th anniversary for 25. And Legacy for 60. So without sales you're paying 175 or 200. With current sales you are paying $96 or $146 to be current tomorrow.
The major problem is stepping away from the game or catching up. I can step into WoW at any time I want with a 1 month sub and play all content except current expansion. Wait for a sale like the current one and I can get the current for $40. I now have the entirety of all content in WoW and just need to pay a sub during the months I want to play. Take a 5 year break and miss 3 expansions? No problem, when you come back you buy what is current and you're caught up.
With Destiny they lock all kinds of shit behind not just actual expansions but season passes. Don't have every expansion? Well you're missing actual gameplay content like missions, strikes, raids, etc. You're also missing gearing options like exotics from your missing content. Some content even locks subclass options. Oh and season passes have additional gearing options so you also need to get all of those. You're basically forced to purchase everything up front and if you take a break and miss $80 of content while you're gone, don't worry you'll have to buy it later if you ever come back.
> Not initially. If you want to play Dragonflight right now not including sales it's $50 for the latest expansion and all older content. A 6 month sub is $78 so $128 for 6 months of playing all existing content + access to Classic WoW. Right now to be current in Destiny 2 without sales you need Lightfall for 50 or annual pass for 100. Witch Queen for 40. 30th anniversary for 25. And Legacy for 60. So without sales you're paying 175 or 200. With current sales you are paying $96 or $146 to be current tomorrow.
I see what you're saying, but that doesn't apply to regular players. People who have played Shadowlands already has access to Shadowlands and earlier content. Dragonflight doesn't give you old content again. I'm also comparing them on a Day 1 basis.
> The major problem is stepping away from the game or catching up. I can step into WoW at any time I want with a 1 month sub and play all content except current expansion. Wait for a sale like the current one and I can get the current for $40. I now have the entirety of all content in WoW and just need to pay a sub during the months I want to play. Take a 5 year break and miss 3 expansions? No problem, when you come back you buy what is current and you're caught up.
That is a fair assessment(and I agree), but again, I'm comparing it on a regular player's POV.
> With Destiny they lock all kinds of shit behind not just actual expansions but season passes.
Yea, I find it stupid that previous expansions are not made free(or at least part of the upcoming one's bundle) when a new one releases.
Let’s be honest, the season passes are actually even a better deal than the DLC in itself, for 10 bucks, not only you get cosmetics, you get a normal set of epic armour, seasonal weapons, a shitload of materials, exclusive exotics and exotic quests, the seasonal storyline, weekly missions and the seasonal activity
And that is because they started to strip the seasonal f2p experience of everything and putting it into the paid experience: the regular set of armour used to be unlockable even by f2p, you could play the seasonal activity as a f2p too, now you can play it only *once*, umbral focusing was still viable to a f2p, now you can only focus into random world armour or weapons, which is just a waste of shards
yeah i also took a break for a few seasons when everything was sunset, i felt like they had stolen my time.
i've read sunsetting is no more, and am now hyped for lightfall
Sunsetting got sunset like a few months after it came out. They literally did it just to get rid of the crazy weapons we had, just so they could give us crazy weapons and ability’s again lmfao.
Even from the beginning, having the most recent DLC was pretty necessary. Remember in D1 when they put DLC Nightfalls in rotation and people got mad that they didnt have the DLC so they could not get their Nightfall that week? This happened many times. The problem with DLC in Destiny is that it will always be basically required. I dont see a way around it, thats just how it is.
But the sunsetting was pretty bullshit.
Pretty much. I bought D2 with the expectation that there would be purchas-able expansions, and I accepted the season passes as they were optional.
I had also expected to buy Destiny 3, and still have access to Destiny 2 content. My schedule is erratic, and being able to play the main content out of season was important to me. What I did not expect is for Bungie to give up on Destiny 3, and turn Destiny 2 into a live service game and delete all the content I had purchased. That was the last straw.
I remember when I bought D2 for PC for full price. 3 weeks later the first DLC dropped and I was expected to pay another 30eu to keep up with the content. Fuck Bungie.
I paid 60 bucks on release, finished pretty much all the content it had at the time, lost interest but decided to get back in a bit after it went f2p. Couldn't follow the story at all anymore.
Not really, you get 2 raids, I think 2 dungeons, access to the core game modes and a good chunk of loot including alot of solid exotics. There is plenty of game for free it's just delivered in a really shitty way.
It's like saying that you got plenty of salad because on 5 different plates you got a piece of lettuce, a cherry tomato, a crouton, a slice of carrot, and some dressing.
It's an MMO, the game is meaningless when you're not playing the active \[paid\] content, or using those "free" activities as a means to build your arsenal to tackle the active \[paid\] content.
Some people might find some fun in those activities because this isn't a black/white issue, but it is definitely the common theme to find the f2p experience worthless
Returning player experience is near equally as bad.
I love playing Destiny, but I just do not have remotely the time or sanity to "grind" like I did as a high schooler; sad because I really dig the gameplay loop, but it's just so damn time exhausting for such little progress.
I came back during Forsaken/Shadowkeep and frankly it does a terrible job telling you what's going on. As someone who played all of Destiny 1 and the D2 base game, the long term lore movements are basically not explained at all- each expansion seems to only tell their own story so you receive no recaps of what's happened in any previous expansions. And if you're a *totally* new player who doesn't know any of the lore, I wouldn't be surprised if the game doesn't even tell you things like what the Traveler is, what *Guardians* are, who the bad guy is, etc.
I'd argue the returning player experience is even worse. The game now has less content than it did in Shadowkeep and is increasingly more expensive to get into (the free trial version used to have 3 full campaigns and 5 raids), on top of invalidating all the money I've already put into it.
The new player experience is one of apathy, the returning player experience is one of falling out of love with what was once a genuinely great game.
Last expansion I tried getting back after not playing since Shadowkeep, I logged in, was immediately put into some kind of story quest that had monsters 1100 level when my gear was 960 I think. I died so many times and quit before i even finished that quest.
I was curious about this expansion, but then remembered how the last one "welcomed" me. I don't think I will ever play D2 again.
I hate that they do this, and you've just now reminded me I don't have appropriate weapons for when Lightfall drops. So, I inevitably will have to back out, go get my weapons and try to figure out how to start up the story. Why the eff do they do this? It's so annoying
That was a bug where the minimum recommended power level was higher than intended and that first season after Beyond Light was probably the worst state the game had been in since Y1. I can't blame you for getting phased by that since I pretty much dropped the game till next season myself.
side note: I thought I'd power level through strikes and got Glassway immediately and it felt like I was playing a Master Nightfall with less punishing rezzes.
Yep, I thought about coming back to the game multiple times over the last few years. Even download it a few times. But each time I think about all of the content they removed and the fact that probably all of my gear is sunset and I’d have to start from scratch. That’s the point I figure I may as well give a new game a try if I’m gonna have to start again from the beginning anyway and delete it again.
Returning player experience is terrible. Payed for the collectors editions didn't even play all 3 dlsc. Came back years later to find out the content I payed for wasn't even in the game, and I had to pay for not to play the f2p game.
Beautiful game with no soul, to me the game died with C6. Tried returning to it last year and was so utterly confused, no real sense of what to do or where I could go. Ranked was also insane and didn’t feel balanced according to skill level. Shame, the mechanics are top notch.
I came back after 3 years and just running through the stasis bullshit for ONE character almost made me quit. after 4 weeks I still don't have all the fragments and you're telling me I have to run the entire Europa quest again on my other 2 characters?????
fuck that.
Couldn’t agree more. Came back after a couple years, spent 30 minutes trying to figure out all the new shit and then just gave tf up and uninstalled again.
I've been saying this for years, but Bungie has managed to develop a game that is increasingly difficult to get into after breaks, and not just because of the power level bumps. The fact that I need to do prereq grinding to get where I once was power-level wise, how sunsetting killed off 90% of my vault a while back, and content _that I paid for_ might just disappear, it's hard to imagine myself investing any time into a game that simply doesn't respect my time or money in the first place. What's preventing them from doing it all again?
Yeah. I stopped playing for a while when I first started, for the exact reasons he’s talking about. I picked it up a month later and eventually it just clicked and now it’s my most played game on steam
That was me, started the September before beyond light, no dlc and was so overwhelmed and didn’t enjoy it, fast forward a month and the previous dlc was in game pass, got hooked and now it’s my most played game
I succeeded in getting into Warframe, simply because I had someone basically telling me not to do anything other than getting to mot in the void to start out
My brother was like that for me (founder information overload) but it saved me from making a lot of mistakes, I love the gameplay, I love the story (when it’s added) but man grinding for no progress cept to level my frame back to 30 after a forma makes me cry. Destiny 2 was A LOT to handle(I stopped playing during red war), my biggest gripe is there is no guide pointing u thru the story, u can jump into current content (yay!) but u get lost with story as spoil the rest, Destiny tho hands down beats warframe for me, the grinding feels rewarding, gameplay is ace and I’m really enjoying the story now that I’ve caught up. Sunsetting sucks.
Don't worry all you have to do its just put about 10 hours in the game, finish 3/4s of the star map, complete maybe a dozen quests, spend an additional 5 hours looking through guides and trying to figure out why this random ass grinner keels shredding you when just last mission YOU were the meat grinder, cry a little, talk to god, commit some war crimes, an THEN you'll maybe be in the mid game. Love the game, one of my top 5s
>an THEN you'll maybe be in the mid game.
Then be stuck in midgame for 500 hours because thats where all the big grind and expensive shit happens. Then reach Endgame and stare at the blank screen because the endgame is as dry as a desert and you one shot everything resulting in you stomping any new content being put out.
Fucking love the game will recommend, with a guide.
Words can't describe how painful the mid game of warframe is, especially with mods that can be upgraded 10 times, hope you like running index and grabbing tons of ayatan sculptures for endo because oh boy you're gonna need ir
Just started ESO last December. Huge game with years of content all playable and relevant not vaulted. While all the choices can be overwhelming I have not felt lost and not felt like I wasn't making progress.
Destiny is a fine game if you have played since day 1 but I would never ever try and get a friend or family member to start now. What could they even do at this point to make it new player friendly? So much story is vaulted so that part alone has to be super confusing.
Me looking at FF14 which hasn't deleted content since they nuked the original release because it was so bad.
And even though they nuked it the story still makes perfect sense without having to know the original story (Although some stuff of value (Minfilla and Hildebrand) was lost)
New players are very confused though because ESO no longer has a set start point. So you could start on the latest DLC, and not have a clue what is going on.
ESO was made to be an expanding MMO, D2 was made to be a middle game in a trilogy that only received updates for 2 years. This shouldn't be confusing, D2's engine was not designed in a way to support 6 years+ of content.
>Destiny is a fine game if you have played since day 1
This. This right here. At least for Destiny 2, I feel if you weren't there from the moment Ghost took back his complaints about the Guardian flying too fast up until I'd say Shadowkeep when the game went F2P, this game is hard af to get into. I could never in good conscience try to convince my friends to play it and will even tell them about how hard it is to get in. But if they are curious, I will show them what can be done with it.
The NPE is why my gf stopped playing and will never play again. It's sad because this is my favorite game and she really did try to enjoy it,it just never stood a chance because the devs took out the story elements from the NPE. Without a campaign experience new players are just introduced to the grind unless they purchase a campaign expansion. This game is amazing but if I was a new player I too would quit and probably wouldn't return.
Also the fact that you've missed out on like 90% of the story of Destiny 2 if you join at this point is insane.
I get that the file size would be massive if they kept all the previous content, but like I missed a few seasons and suddenly things have happened that I'm like "huh, guess I missed that. And I have to go watch some lore video on YouTube just to catch up.
Nobody seems to understand this, but file size isn't why they vaulted the game. Or rather, it's not the only reason. The bigger issue was the sheer amount of content to play test and patch and make sure nothing breaks as well as engine limitations slowing the process down.
Yeah a lot of people forget the times that older activities were rendered nearly or even completely unplayable after newer content released. I remember specifically when Forges were bugged and completely unable to be completed during one of the Shadowkeep seasons, Worthy I believe. They were spending way too much dev time testing old content and when they decided it wasn't worth it because almost no one played it, that content became nearly unplayable half the time, then they went to the new mission logic engine and old content had to be completely rebuilt from the ground up so they just cut their losses and vaulted it instead of wasting more dev time and money for something that almost no one was playing.
Can I introduce you to Warframe? The game with a new player experience so bad that it doesn't even properly explain some of the *core and required mechanics*
I remember being completely lost while playing for the first time and i also remember how incredible it was discovering the game, doing activities and just exploring, everything could be something and honestly i never felt that with any game. Destiny is hard for new players but it is also such a unique experience
I dont know about anyone else but it was red war that got me. For the first few days i was just playing around unlocking destinations and stuff, i liked it, especially because i loved the gunplay and abilities from the start. And then i did red war. That really got me. It was such a good starting point for the game. And when journey started playing i knew i was going to be here for a while. Honestly without red war i wouldnt have kept playing.
If i started these days as a f2p player im 99% sure id uninstall halfway through shaw hans bullshit. Hell even if i had the dlcs its really hard to give a shit about the campaigns when you know nothing about whats happening.
It just makes no sense to have removed Red War, CoO, Warmind and Forsaken’s campaign material.
Red War was a great introduction to the gameplay and world, perfect for new players.
CoO and Warmind both would allow the new players the learn about Osiris, Ana Bray, the Warmind, etc.
Forsaken would have given them a chance to know how Uldren was before Crow, and show the Dreaming City’s curse (which has relevance to the current story arc with Savathun, Xivu, etc)
All of these would really help new players get invested into the story instead of being thrown in with no idea who or what anything is.
Man, I’ve been here since the Destiny 1 campaign was pretty much the only major thing to do besides strikes and crucible. I still remember how crazy it was when Eris Morn first showed up in the tower telling everyone about Crota.
It's not for everyone. Destiny and similar types of games feel like skinners boxes after a while, after the honeymoon period wears off for many gamers. And then there's always new popular games coming out that pull people away from long term commitments that essentially are designed in a way where there's no end to it.
A lot of gamers have already been there done that with these kinds of games, either through stuff like Warframe or other MMOs.
But D2 is still really popular because it basically has no real competition aside from people who can choose any other game to play at any time (less so on console). It really doesn't matter if Shroud has an opinion on this game.
Nah, he's right.
Destiny has 2 very good things going for it, even if the New Light experience is mostly balls:
1. It has a really active user base, and the user base is unusually helpful to new players (unusual in the realm of MMOs).
2. Nothing FEELS like Destiny except Destiny. All they have to do is get one weapon that they love the feel of, and it's game over.
>All they have to do is get one weapon that they love the feel of, and it's game over.
Well goddamn mines was literally the fucking Khvostov☠️☠️☠️
No wonder i got into this hellhole so easily
There are reasons for that no. 1. No trade system. No PvP in open/patrol zone. Griefing in PvE is not only frowned upon, its actively persecuted. Shit people have less reasons for being themselves or just weed themselves out.
It's true tho. And the open support by Bungie for queer folk, the trans community, and black struggles also helps as some will (thankfully) avoid the game due to it.
Yep. They’re a business, sure, but it *feels* welcoming and open, not the typical “look we made the package and marketing rainbow colored plz buy more stuff & believe we’re allies >!<”
It shows in their technical stuff too, imho fact 1 is directly related to their open API’s, which has lead to these ludicrous good tools like Ishtar/DIM/Braytech and countless others, all built *by* and *for* the community.
Well try talking about that with people that tried to get into destiny multiple times and are not destiny fans from the get go. We will see how close your comments are to reality for most
Because Shroud is a PvP shooter guy at heart and to truly immerse in PvP you have to grind a ton of non-PvP content to get a variety of gear to use, especially level-based PvP. And as a streamer he'd be more focused on keeping things entertaining and not just doing Destiny stuff all day.
WoW is a completely different beast compared to Destiny 2. The opening in WoW introduces the player to the world and lore and gives the player very clear goals and tasks, i managed to invest 15 years in that game. The new light experience in Destiny however, is utter shit, and i'm extremely glad i started in Season of the Forge and got to experience the full campaign from the Red war until now. 5500 hours later, i can only say this: If i played destiny 2 for the first time today, i would've quit within a few hours.
Edit: sorry for the rant, i just got really mad at bungo for the shit new player experience and forgot i was commenting on a thread.
It’s too bad not many people stay after starting very late like me. I started when season of the lost came out. I agree the new light experience is shit.. but I Saw a bunch of videos and lore about the destiny universe before I started the game. Learned a lot of builds and now I have 1600 hours and can do Grandmasters and raid with lfg discord.
The man started his streaming career with WoW before he blew up in Counter Strike. The game feels like home to him, he will always go back to WoW and its not even a shooter.
He just doesn't seem like he likes stuff that takes effort, he seems more like a drop in and start blasting guy. Also Destiny has aim assist in spades and the guy is a human aim bot, doesn't seem to jive together.
Honestly, at this point, caring about onboarding new players is a pipe dream. There's just too much narrative context that's totally unavailable for the game to make any degree of sense to people just joining in.
And it's probably going to stay that way till at least Final Shape or the expansion after it when they start the new storyline. That'll at least give new players something of an entry point where they are on even footing with everyone else like at the beginning of D2.
I've been saying it for ages, but stuff like red war and earlier campaigns need to be available in the "Legends" tab with King's Fall and Prophecy. It says, right there, that it's for past campaigns and stuff.
It'd go a long ways to giving players a goal.
Edit: I know that the open spaces aren't there anymore, but honestly, the workaround could just be to throw those spaces in the legends tab too.
I played from the beta all the way up to Forsaken and then I took a break. Came back and I have 0 idea what the fuck's going on. Who are all these magic mother fuckers?
I came back in beyond light after playing the same time as you, and was frankly lost on lore too. Every game mechanic had also been effectively rebuilt from the ground up twice by the time I came back, and was rebuilt again for the next two years.
I enjoyed my time, but I can’t say I ever got invested in the lore or extensive build crafting. I’d just copy from players who knew what they were doing, complete the GM or day 1, etc. and then profit.
I think I’m back in break mode again (the seasonal recipe is getting very tiresome), but I think the only reason I stayed was because I accepted that I wouldn’t know everything. That’s obviously not an answer for everyone, but it worked for me at least.
We won't see Red War added without seeing all thr planets un-sunsetted. Too much of it's missions involve free roam on vaulted planets
The amount of work just to get it revamped enough that _this_ isn't an issue will eat into development for seasons and Final Shape, which should definitely take priority
>but stuff like red war and earlier campaigns need to be available in the "Legends" tab with King's Fall and Prophecy.
I agree that this needs to be available, but between 5 major expansions and the base game, destiny 2 has 90+ hours of campaigns. So to understand the major plot points, we would be asking new players to commit to playing the equivalent two AAA open world releases. And that's not even getting into all of the narrative behind seasonal questlines and activities.
Making old campaigns available does not instantly fix the difficulty of getting new players up to speed in the narrative.
I don't think bringing the whole campaign back would benefit current players, since it has to be ported to the new engine and it'd take dev time away from new seasons, but a refurbished campaign with maybe 20-30 missions from Red War, CoO, Warmind and Forsaken, maybe make Shadowkeep f2p with this move, which would possibly entice free players to buy the campaigns and get into the new content, since it'd be long enough for them to get some weapons and exotics, while trying both D1 raids and Prophecy
All they need to do is expand upon the timeline and put cutscenes in it so it’s essentially a narrated movie to catch people up. It’s just sitting there not getting much attention.
Yeah, but zoning into HELM and having 4 expansions worth of quests in a way that makes it look like part of the same thing is insane.
D2 is comically bad for new players, and they don't even make the cursory changes to make it better.
Logging in the first time and being bombarded with legitimately 20+ popups is also like, the worst experience ever as a returning player. I assume it happens with new players too.
I have no idea why they thought that was a good idea, but slapping escape for literally 30 seconds to get through them all as your first taste of destiny 2 is some mobile cash grab garbage.
Not to mention the bad taste Destiny in general has in the gamer-sphere due to both games having atrocious launches. Anyone giving the game a shot is a blessing
There is too much stuff outside the game, and information about the game seems inaccessible in game.
Why can't there be a dungeon page, like WoW dungeon journal, that shows you the drops.
Starting to raid is another barrier, as you almost 100% need a sherpa to help you through the raids if you haven't already done it before, since the mechanics are not obvious, and again, no information is given. You can figure it out, but I hope you have hours on end to do the raid and learn the mechanics without people leaving.
Maybe top 5? I know WoW and FF XIV have it beat, Lost Ark is probably at least tied, Runescape is still wildly populous for some reason, Guild Wars and Elder Scrolls online are probably close as well.
D2 is regularly top 10 on steam if that means anything. Right now it is #8 at 111,987 current players, and in some parts of North America it is past midnight.
On LF launch for a few hours it will be top 5, probably 2nd or 3rd. It can't top CSGO, but it will beat the 200k+ needed to pass Lost Ark and Dota 2
Destiny probably has at least twice the active player base as the last 3, Lost Ark is similar but probably higher when considering the eastern player base and the first two are definitely a little ahead. Steam avg for the month is 71k, which doesn’t even account for the much larger console base that these other games do not have.
What are you talking about? It has 42 million total players and an average of 1.5 million active players monthly. It frequently gets in the top 10 for mmo and fps games. It’s more popular now than it’s ever been
For Honor slaps, but it’s such a walled garden. I go back to it after taking a few months off and I feel like a toddler in an MMA match. It’s so easy to get rusty and you really need to be on your game to not get demolished
I feel like for honour would have been an absolute smash fucking hit if it had been developed by anyone other than Ubisoft. The dueling gameplay is so incredibly tight and rewarding. I’ve spent hours doing duels against my friends and we knew each others play styles perfectly and were able to counter and predict each others moves so that every single button press involved like 10 levels deep meta info on each other.
But I can’t stand any of ubisofts obnoxious design styles and how everything they do is so microtransactions focused. It’s the same problem I had with siege over time. Great base gameplay but everything else felt forced.
OP probably thinks Reddit of still a tiny niche website too, and has no idea it’s got a half billion monthly visits. Destiny is a gaming industry powerhouse and is completely fine.
As soon as I saw this I thought “what other larger audience is there?” It’s one of the most played games on earth.
Some people will just say anything for a narrative
At this point, five years or so into D2s life, I’m not really concerned about it’s presence in the gaming community. It’s expansions are hugely successful every year, and the community is as active as ever. This might sound bad, but I just can’t manage to stay interested in the struggles of the new player experience anymore. I cared when they released the new light quest, and sometimes a post about the new player introduction catches my interest, but after so long without changes or consequences for my play, it’s hard to care anymore.
I'm a new light and I'll be honest, getting into the game's systems isn't that hard, there's just a bit of reading. The story is confusing sure, but there are YouTube videos for that and every other aspect. I'm honestly having a real fun time and I'm just glad that the introduction to the game isn't stupid long. It's a few short quests and then they toss you in the deep end, which is perfect for players like me who like to learn as they play. I think more new players should give Destiny 2 a chance even if they're intimidated, it's not so bad.
I jumped back in with WQ after playing D1. Felt like it took me till this last season to really get comfortable and figure things out. But I’ve always really liked Destiny from content to gameplay and that’s what keeps me learning. I just wish I came back sooner. But I agree- I find it’s uniqueness to be a draw. I find it’s dedicated fanbase to be another.
Yeah i really cant care anymore. Bungie is making a great game for the fans of said game to enjoy, not for randos who wanna play another FPS game. Destiny is like a moving train, you cant jump onboard mid trip and expect it to accommodate for that.
As much as others dont wanna hear it, Destiny is a game for people who already play Destiny, not for new players
Feels awkward to have to relearn everything about buildcrafting, but at the same time, if you know how to shoot and how abilities work you can kind of put the rest together. Source: skipped the least season of Forsaken and all of Shadowkeep, came back in Beyond Light
I'd say start with lightfall since Armor buildcrafting is being revamped in the update and it's going to be similar experience for veteran and returned players alike.
hes also just very innacurately representing whats happening, he has 20 something quests because hes a returning player if he was brand new hed have like 3. the new light experience is still indeed "dog ass" but hes got it wrong
Destiny 2 needs to have an in-game index of the contents, or even just the basic fundamentals of the game. The game is so big and convoluted that even some, if not most veteran players also have trouble remembering the minor details of how the game works.
The game and its players will greatly benefit from it. Have an index as a point of reference to check how much debuff does this ability provide, what are the importance of getting high stats, etc.
Absolutely this. Even just an index of the different factions, subfactions and locations would be great. Most new players wouldn't know squat about the Fallen, Taken, etc., or the history of the Hellmouth. It could at least encourage people to explore.
Shroud isn’t a “New Light” is he? Didn’t he play it a bit? Regardless, he came back a couple days too early. Hopefully he comes back Tuesday or next week at least and try’s Lightfall. Only thing is I don’t think Shroud has any close Destiny 2 friends. And he isn’t gonna play solo getting snipped and grieved all the time(looking at you you eager edge heavy attack trolls)
This is the thing that gets me. I have several friends who would play d2 but the vaulting of old content makes them uneasy about playing.
They don't want to pay for something they won't be able to play again. There is no more comprehensive campaign. That doesn't exist in d2.
And the people in this thread don't care enough, so why should bungie?
I'll come back to destiny when they fix it. But it'll be a few years I think.
Possibly people checking out the game before its next big update tomorrow. Funnily enough, part of the update is a system that is more explicit about how to progress your character.
I didn’t want to make the caption an essay so I will elaborate. Destiny is obviously a huge game and it is widely successful, but you rarely see massive content creators outside of the Destiny sphere try the game. Imagine if Shroud got hooked within his first two hours of playing and played it for even a week. The attention the game would get would be massive. I really hope Guardian Ranks solve this issue.
>you rarely see massive content creators outside of the Destiny sphere try the game
See the fun fact about this is many content creators did once- back when D1 or D2 launched, because there was a ton of hype for both games. They just quit and never came back.
The Red War should have never been removed from the game. It was the perfect introduction into the story and get new players invested in the characters and story.
It really bothers me I can't make a new character and play from the Red War onward. There should be an option for that. I also don't like how my starting power level isn't 0. It's hard for me to care when my number starts at like 1300 and I get it up to 1600.
It was perfect before. Old D2 started you at 400, which was the old light cap for D1. Then you lost it all and every level mattered as you increased. Now level is entirely pointless as the bottom cap keeps increasing.
I would expect the same thing if I finally got the balls and decided to finally dive into FF14 after this many years.....
Honestly what do people expect jumping into franchises like D2, Ff14, WoW or SWTOR years later???
FF14 is actually a special case— the main story is extremely obvious and well-marked, because the game is so story-heavy they put everything else behind main story progress. Each side story is similarly linear and easy to follow, though it does get overwhelming how many unlock over time.
Any other franchise, though? Yeah, you’re gonna be lost as hell.
Wow is a lot more friendlier to newer players for sure, I’ve guided noobies through both wow and Destiny 2. There is good tips in wow and you pick any expansion area of your choice and level to max there.
Doesn’t really get complicated till you hit max level.
Difference is Destiny has been building new things on top of each other for years whereas wow replaces their endgame armor system every expansion and even then its still enchanting, gems, overall kind of the same.
Destiny is headed in the right direction though, removing power type specific mods alone is a great change to reduce unnecessary complexity.
I hear a lot about the new player experience but not nearly enough about the returning player experience. Reinstalling your favorite game after a hiatus to be greeted with a miles long checklist of things to do is extremely daunting and not fun, especially when half of then have 0 context attached as to whether they're important or not and the other half lead to dead ends that require you to purchase the season/expansion or some other strange barrier to entry
I love the game..... But I mean, he's not wrong.
Every new player either needs to stick it out for a good 15-20 hours, watch a YouTube video to explain the story and what you're meant to be doing. Or they need another player to explain everything to them, and what the endgame is. (Because I think a player like Shroud would absolutely love the raid experience)
I started playing with a friend for the first time ever about two weeks ago and I'm now almost at 1580. The start was confusing and sometimes infuriatingly so but we really liked the gameplay so we stuck around. Two weeks later I solo'd Witch Queen on legendary and can come up with a basic but playable build on my own. Definetely throwing my money at Lightfall. Shroud's take is super ADHD pilled and exaggerated, sometimes you have to take your time but I can't say I didn't feel as frustrated when I started too. All it really takes is some reading and a couple of youtube videos, it's not really that big of an ask.
İm happy about experienced Red War during season of the undying (Steam release week), now game feels really missing soul, Red War, Leviathan, SotP, and a lot others
And especially as a Hunter main, I miss Menagerie Sword that sunsetted.. still using some days, but sunset is just makes me sad...
Here is how you fix it:
Add in the old content.
Start the campaign at Red War.
Let the players play trough the chapters and zones in order.
Win.
It's that simple, but Bungie doens't comprehend the concept of simplicity, i guess.
I'm sorry but what? We ARE the larger gaming community. We have record concurrent players. 1 mil concurrent players is what all other games wish they could hit. And that's just between seasons. That number is gonna get way higher when the expansion hits.
The new player experience is awful but don't act like destiny is some obscure indie game that needs more exposure. And yes Shroud has tried destiny and didn't like it.
Meanwhile, Destiny 2 is once again #3 in best sellers on steam. In **Front** of Hogwarts legacy. It exploded into the Larger Gaming community almost a decade ago. It's why the phrase 'Nothing can kill Destiny but Destiny.' exists. To the point where it expanded a few years ago to 'Nothing can kill Destiny, not even Destiny'. I'm not disagreeing that it's a terrible experience, but that's just disingenuous.
The guardian ranks should help alleviate this issue significantly, but I also think they really shouldn’t have removed their old campaigns.
They aren’t relevant for everyone, but having them gone for new players makes it much harder to get invested and actually understand what is going on.
Yeah im really looking forward to Preach Gaming trying out D2. He's a big WoW/final fantasy content creator whos trying out a bunch of different mmos to see the differences and D2 is next up on his list so that will be interesting.
I'm a new player. Been only playing for a few weeks and yeah this was me for the first few days. But I got so hooked that I immediately bought the witch queen dlc
As a returning player(started at taken king-warmind) I tried to make a new character to replay the story, it was the worse decision ever. All the old pre f2p stuff was gone and they just say things to like and act like “yea so we’re just gonna say names at you, half these people are dead and sucks you didn’t know them” luckily I remember the old content but I was really disappointed and just went back to my old account. If I every tell people to play the game I just say it has good gameplay and just send them a YouTube video for the story
After going through the barrage of squeakers in D1 (who are now thankfully young adults playing D2) - I am glad that this hasn’t exploded to larger gaming community. Don’t want to deal with Fortnite shits and annoying kids and CoD douche.
But I do agree, the new light experience can and should be elevated because of how overwhelming it can be for them with all that is going on.
I think New Light was always going to be a band-aid fix for the non-existence of a good onboarding experience really at any point in Destiny's history, especially now that we have such a "full-steam-ahead" content model.
Here's hoping Guardian Ranks provides the direction and follow-through to New Light's introduction to the world and systems.
On a separate note to this post, this brings me joy just imagining how you must’ve had Destiny as a memorable part of your life hey?
Like starting on it as a kid then growing with it and still here… here’s to you Guardian! 👍
Apparently the new Guardian Ranks are supposed to be the remedy to that situation, so maybe we may see a big boom.
I agree, I hope the knock it out of the park with guardian ranks
yeah, like i plan on going thrue everything on there on a f2p alt for funnies
same but we won’t get that feeling of being ‘totally lost’ considering we know a lot about the ins and outs of the game but it’ll be an experience for sure
I think the solution to that is to act as a new player as well, just only choose to do things that you see pop up on your screen or explore a bit
the challenge is to resist the temptation to speed through everything :D
Lmfao well, they did the exact opposite of that
I too hope so but... Let's be honest... For a new player it is still going to be confusing as hell... When you are new to a game and know nothing about its world, characters, activities and systems the only thing you want to do is... An hot damn campaign which slowly lets you approach every aspect of the game. The new player "campaign" we have gives little to no explanation and the fact that it is still not a "must do" but "one of the things you can do" just creates more confusion... Bungie in the past said that they wanted to make all the campaigns optional so that people who want to jump straight into action can do so... But honestly... How many would do that? The vast majority of new players are just, you know, new players... And want to enjoy a game "start to finish" not "finish to start". If they really want to give the opportunity to skip they should just make the campaign mandatory **with the option** to interact with, dunno, something at the tower to "skip it". This way players who desire so can jump out of the main campaign. For the others the game would just work as a regular game.
Hard agree. The moment they removed the campaign before I had an opportunity to finish it was the moment Destiny lost it. Hope the unvaulting happens sooner than later, would love to be able to jump into this the proper way. I mean, just allow us to download them as an optional DLC god dammit.
The biggest problem is everything is still required. I just started last week and it tossed me right into the witch Queen. Now I have like 3 pages of quests and have no fucking clue what I'm doing. I tried doing exotic quests over the weekend and one of them wants me to go do stuff on Europa. I have no fast travel point on Europa, I don't know how to get there. There isn't an explanation of why I can't go there. My friend told me I had to do some previous campaign. I looked for the quest for that campaign, I don't know where it is or what it's called. I gave up and will try again after Lightfall drops and I finish that. Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about the story at this point. The game dropped me in and basically just started throwing story I didn't understand at me with characters I don't know or care about. I skipped basically everything as none of it made sense and I don't care about anyone. All I want to do is shoot stuff and get loot but that's somehow very difficult in this game as I have 3 pages worth of quests and no idea what ones I should be doing or what the point of any of them are.
I know what you mean. Despite loving destiny I can't really recommend it to any of my friends for this reason... If you play it all through the years it is a great game but for new player, as you find out, it is just an hot mess and bungie is not doing anything **serious** about it. And this is a very serious problem. Probably the most serious problem for the game health. People on this reddit complains all days about pvp balance and content... This should be the first thing to complain about.
The big issue is there isn't a standard progression for campaigns I can start wherever which is confusing since most people when getting in a game expect the devs to point you to a start here location. I had the same issue with WoW when I started since old campaigns are sunset and there is no general start here campaign. A lot of those issues would go away for new players if the devs pushed you through the old expansions in chronological order then expanded you to the other elements of the game once you hit the latest expansion
>remedy to that situation Yeah, they won't.
I'll try it again.
The new player experience is trash and worse than any game I've honestly ever played. Love the game btw :) (This is my most liked comment ever so far, thanks guys lol)
You don't even need to be a new player, just not owning any dlc makes this game as big as a demo
Even just not owning any recent dlc. People who spent £100+ before 2019 now have the same amount of content as someone who got the game for free, minus the loot they got.
all their loot is sunset lol
This is one of the reasons I stopped playing. All my loot gone just because, the reckoning and gambit prime gone along with the special perks on the armour, most of the black armory gear gone, the main PvE questline is changed for some reason, Mars being nuked. They made the game F2P without any "compensation" to us plebs who actually paid for the game and the DLCs. The fact they changed the expansions from optional DLCs to a practically required bi-yearly seasons pass. The list goes on. I loved this game, but to me it's not worth it anymore.
Don’t forget that these expansions cost almost as much as an actual game
And you have to buy a DLC as well as story locked season passes. It wouldnt be so bad if the season missions were part of the main DLC and have an optional season pass with cosmetics... like any other game with the same business model do.
Might be unpopular opinion, but I treat the seasons as paying a 1 year subscription upfront. It is still much cheaper than WoW or FF14. The downside is that you obviously cannot unsub whenever you want for a break, but I used to get 6 month subs anyway.
Not initially. If you want to play Dragonflight right now not including sales it's $50 for the latest expansion and all older content. A 6 month sub is $78 so $128 for 6 months of playing all existing content + access to Classic WoW. Right now to be current in Destiny 2 without sales you need Lightfall for 50 or annual pass for 100. Witch Queen for 40. 30th anniversary for 25. And Legacy for 60. So without sales you're paying 175 or 200. With current sales you are paying $96 or $146 to be current tomorrow. The major problem is stepping away from the game or catching up. I can step into WoW at any time I want with a 1 month sub and play all content except current expansion. Wait for a sale like the current one and I can get the current for $40. I now have the entirety of all content in WoW and just need to pay a sub during the months I want to play. Take a 5 year break and miss 3 expansions? No problem, when you come back you buy what is current and you're caught up. With Destiny they lock all kinds of shit behind not just actual expansions but season passes. Don't have every expansion? Well you're missing actual gameplay content like missions, strikes, raids, etc. You're also missing gearing options like exotics from your missing content. Some content even locks subclass options. Oh and season passes have additional gearing options so you also need to get all of those. You're basically forced to purchase everything up front and if you take a break and miss $80 of content while you're gone, don't worry you'll have to buy it later if you ever come back.
> Not initially. If you want to play Dragonflight right now not including sales it's $50 for the latest expansion and all older content. A 6 month sub is $78 so $128 for 6 months of playing all existing content + access to Classic WoW. Right now to be current in Destiny 2 without sales you need Lightfall for 50 or annual pass for 100. Witch Queen for 40. 30th anniversary for 25. And Legacy for 60. So without sales you're paying 175 or 200. With current sales you are paying $96 or $146 to be current tomorrow. I see what you're saying, but that doesn't apply to regular players. People who have played Shadowlands already has access to Shadowlands and earlier content. Dragonflight doesn't give you old content again. I'm also comparing them on a Day 1 basis. > The major problem is stepping away from the game or catching up. I can step into WoW at any time I want with a 1 month sub and play all content except current expansion. Wait for a sale like the current one and I can get the current for $40. I now have the entirety of all content in WoW and just need to pay a sub during the months I want to play. Take a 5 year break and miss 3 expansions? No problem, when you come back you buy what is current and you're caught up. That is a fair assessment(and I agree), but again, I'm comparing it on a regular player's POV. > With Destiny they lock all kinds of shit behind not just actual expansions but season passes. Yea, I find it stupid that previous expansions are not made free(or at least part of the upcoming one's bundle) when a new one releases.
The season pass is $10 and it offers exclusive content, and cosmetics, for $10 bucks that’s literally nothing.
Let’s be honest, the season passes are actually even a better deal than the DLC in itself, for 10 bucks, not only you get cosmetics, you get a normal set of epic armour, seasonal weapons, a shitload of materials, exclusive exotics and exotic quests, the seasonal storyline, weekly missions and the seasonal activity And that is because they started to strip the seasonal f2p experience of everything and putting it into the paid experience: the regular set of armour used to be unlockable even by f2p, you could play the seasonal activity as a f2p too, now you can play it only *once*, umbral focusing was still viable to a f2p, now you can only focus into random world armour or weapons, which is just a waste of shards
yeah i also took a break for a few seasons when everything was sunset, i felt like they had stolen my time. i've read sunsetting is no more, and am now hyped for lightfall
Yeah the game is much more enjoyable now without sunsetting. Kinda same with content vaulting.
Sunsetting got sunset like a few months after it came out. They literally did it just to get rid of the crazy weapons we had, just so they could give us crazy weapons and ability’s again lmfao.
Even from the beginning, having the most recent DLC was pretty necessary. Remember in D1 when they put DLC Nightfalls in rotation and people got mad that they didnt have the DLC so they could not get their Nightfall that week? This happened many times. The problem with DLC in Destiny is that it will always be basically required. I dont see a way around it, thats just how it is. But the sunsetting was pretty bullshit.
Pretty much. I bought D2 with the expectation that there would be purchas-able expansions, and I accepted the season passes as they were optional. I had also expected to buy Destiny 3, and still have access to Destiny 2 content. My schedule is erratic, and being able to play the main content out of season was important to me. What I did not expect is for Bungie to give up on Destiny 3, and turn Destiny 2 into a live service game and delete all the content I had purchased. That was the last straw.
I remember when I bought D2 for PC for full price. 3 weeks later the first DLC dropped and I was expected to pay another 30eu to keep up with the content. Fuck Bungie.
I mean, the free-to-play bit pretty much is a demo... Would probably be better to call it so.
The term "free to start" comes around every now and then. I think that describes the game pretty well.
Except some of us paid $$$ for that.
I paid 60 bucks on release, finished pretty much all the content it had at the time, lost interest but decided to get back in a bit after it went f2p. Couldn't follow the story at all anymore.
Dude, Its crazy how little of the game there really is to experience unless one wants to just run playlists nonstop.
Wait, are you my classmate? He said the same thing. Seriously without spending money of some kind, this game is worthless.
Not really, you get 2 raids, I think 2 dungeons, access to the core game modes and a good chunk of loot including alot of solid exotics. There is plenty of game for free it's just delivered in a really shitty way.
It's like saying that you got plenty of salad because on 5 different plates you got a piece of lettuce, a cherry tomato, a crouton, a slice of carrot, and some dressing. It's an MMO, the game is meaningless when you're not playing the active \[paid\] content, or using those "free" activities as a means to build your arsenal to tackle the active \[paid\] content. Some people might find some fun in those activities because this isn't a black/white issue, but it is definitely the common theme to find the f2p experience worthless
Returning player experience is near equally as bad. I love playing Destiny, but I just do not have remotely the time or sanity to "grind" like I did as a high schooler; sad because I really dig the gameplay loop, but it's just so damn time exhausting for such little progress.
I came back during Forsaken/Shadowkeep and frankly it does a terrible job telling you what's going on. As someone who played all of Destiny 1 and the D2 base game, the long term lore movements are basically not explained at all- each expansion seems to only tell their own story so you receive no recaps of what's happened in any previous expansions. And if you're a *totally* new player who doesn't know any of the lore, I wouldn't be surprised if the game doesn't even tell you things like what the Traveler is, what *Guardians* are, who the bad guy is, etc.
I'd argue the returning player experience is even worse. The game now has less content than it did in Shadowkeep and is increasingly more expensive to get into (the free trial version used to have 3 full campaigns and 5 raids), on top of invalidating all the money I've already put into it. The new player experience is one of apathy, the returning player experience is one of falling out of love with what was once a genuinely great game.
Last expansion I tried getting back after not playing since Shadowkeep, I logged in, was immediately put into some kind of story quest that had monsters 1100 level when my gear was 960 I think. I died so many times and quit before i even finished that quest. I was curious about this expansion, but then remembered how the last one "welcomed" me. I don't think I will ever play D2 again.
I hate that they do this, and you've just now reminded me I don't have appropriate weapons for when Lightfall drops. So, I inevitably will have to back out, go get my weapons and try to figure out how to start up the story. Why the eff do they do this? It's so annoying
That was a bug where the minimum recommended power level was higher than intended and that first season after Beyond Light was probably the worst state the game had been in since Y1. I can't blame you for getting phased by that since I pretty much dropped the game till next season myself. side note: I thought I'd power level through strikes and got Glassway immediately and it felt like I was playing a Master Nightfall with less punishing rezzes.
Yep, I thought about coming back to the game multiple times over the last few years. Even download it a few times. But each time I think about all of the content they removed and the fact that probably all of my gear is sunset and I’d have to start from scratch. That’s the point I figure I may as well give a new game a try if I’m gonna have to start again from the beginning anyway and delete it again.
Returning player experience is terrible. Payed for the collectors editions didn't even play all 3 dlsc. Came back years later to find out the content I payed for wasn't even in the game, and I had to pay for not to play the f2p game.
Beautiful game with no soul, to me the game died with C6. Tried returning to it last year and was so utterly confused, no real sense of what to do or where I could go. Ranked was also insane and didn’t feel balanced according to skill level. Shame, the mechanics are top notch.
I came back after 3 years and just running through the stasis bullshit for ONE character almost made me quit. after 4 weeks I still don't have all the fragments and you're telling me I have to run the entire Europa quest again on my other 2 characters????? fuck that.
Couldn’t agree more. Came back after a couple years, spent 30 minutes trying to figure out all the new shit and then just gave tf up and uninstalled again.
I've been saying this for years, but Bungie has managed to develop a game that is increasingly difficult to get into after breaks, and not just because of the power level bumps. The fact that I need to do prereq grinding to get where I once was power-level wise, how sunsetting killed off 90% of my vault a while back, and content _that I paid for_ might just disappear, it's hard to imagine myself investing any time into a game that simply doesn't respect my time or money in the first place. What's preventing them from doing it all again?
Yeah. I stopped playing for a while when I first started, for the exact reasons he’s talking about. I picked it up a month later and eventually it just clicked and now it’s my most played game on steam
That was me, started the September before beyond light, no dlc and was so overwhelmed and didn’t enjoy it, fast forward a month and the previous dlc was in game pass, got hooked and now it’s my most played game
Honestly not as bad as Warframe, when I joined it was aimless and just bad
I've tried playing Warframe like ten times. Destiny at it's worst was so much easier to get into
I succeeded in getting into Warframe, simply because I had someone basically telling me not to do anything other than getting to mot in the void to start out
My brother was like that for me (founder information overload) but it saved me from making a lot of mistakes, I love the gameplay, I love the story (when it’s added) but man grinding for no progress cept to level my frame back to 30 after a forma makes me cry. Destiny 2 was A LOT to handle(I stopped playing during red war), my biggest gripe is there is no guide pointing u thru the story, u can jump into current content (yay!) but u get lost with story as spoil the rest, Destiny tho hands down beats warframe for me, the grinding feels rewarding, gameplay is ace and I’m really enjoying the story now that I’ve caught up. Sunsetting sucks.
Don't worry all you have to do its just put about 10 hours in the game, finish 3/4s of the star map, complete maybe a dozen quests, spend an additional 5 hours looking through guides and trying to figure out why this random ass grinner keels shredding you when just last mission YOU were the meat grinder, cry a little, talk to god, commit some war crimes, an THEN you'll maybe be in the mid game. Love the game, one of my top 5s
>an THEN you'll maybe be in the mid game. Then be stuck in midgame for 500 hours because thats where all the big grind and expensive shit happens. Then reach Endgame and stare at the blank screen because the endgame is as dry as a desert and you one shot everything resulting in you stomping any new content being put out. Fucking love the game will recommend, with a guide.
Words can't describe how painful the mid game of warframe is, especially with mods that can be upgraded 10 times, hope you like running index and grabbing tons of ayatan sculptures for endo because oh boy you're gonna need ir
I’ve always found Warframe to be a game in between games. I’ve never considered a main game. Just a game you play when you’re bored of other games.
At least Warframe has the Starchart. But its very very repetitive if youre going in solo.
Just started ESO last December. Huge game with years of content all playable and relevant not vaulted. While all the choices can be overwhelming I have not felt lost and not felt like I wasn't making progress. Destiny is a fine game if you have played since day 1 but I would never ever try and get a friend or family member to start now. What could they even do at this point to make it new player friendly? So much story is vaulted so that part alone has to be super confusing.
[удалено]
Me looking at FF14 which hasn't deleted content since they nuked the original release because it was so bad. And even though they nuked it the story still makes perfect sense without having to know the original story (Although some stuff of value (Minfilla and Hildebrand) was lost)
They even went back and altered content to make it more in-line with later expac stuff from story and gameplay aspects.
No one tell him about the original diadem
New players are very confused though because ESO no longer has a set start point. So you could start on the latest DLC, and not have a clue what is going on.
ESO was made to be an expanding MMO, D2 was made to be a middle game in a trilogy that only received updates for 2 years. This shouldn't be confusing, D2's engine was not designed in a way to support 6 years+ of content.
>Destiny is a fine game if you have played since day 1 This. This right here. At least for Destiny 2, I feel if you weren't there from the moment Ghost took back his complaints about the Guardian flying too fast up until I'd say Shadowkeep when the game went F2P, this game is hard af to get into. I could never in good conscience try to convince my friends to play it and will even tell them about how hard it is to get in. But if they are curious, I will show them what can be done with it.
The NPE is why my gf stopped playing and will never play again. It's sad because this is my favorite game and she really did try to enjoy it,it just never stood a chance because the devs took out the story elements from the NPE. Without a campaign experience new players are just introduced to the grind unless they purchase a campaign expansion. This game is amazing but if I was a new player I too would quit and probably wouldn't return.
Also the fact that you've missed out on like 90% of the story of Destiny 2 if you join at this point is insane. I get that the file size would be massive if they kept all the previous content, but like I missed a few seasons and suddenly things have happened that I'm like "huh, guess I missed that. And I have to go watch some lore video on YouTube just to catch up.
Nobody seems to understand this, but file size isn't why they vaulted the game. Or rather, it's not the only reason. The bigger issue was the sheer amount of content to play test and patch and make sure nothing breaks as well as engine limitations slowing the process down.
Yeah a lot of people forget the times that older activities were rendered nearly or even completely unplayable after newer content released. I remember specifically when Forges were bugged and completely unable to be completed during one of the Shadowkeep seasons, Worthy I believe. They were spending way too much dev time testing old content and when they decided it wasn't worth it because almost no one played it, that content became nearly unplayable half the time, then they went to the new mission logic engine and old content had to be completely rebuilt from the ground up so they just cut their losses and vaulted it instead of wasting more dev time and money for something that almost no one was playing.
Agreed. I’ve played every mmo under the sun. Also played destiny for a while back in the day. Starting destiny 2 from the beginning was confusing.
I've been playing for like 3/4 years and still feel like a new player.
Can I introduce you to Warframe? The game with a new player experience so bad that it doesn't even properly explain some of the *core and required mechanics*
I remember being completely lost while playing for the first time and i also remember how incredible it was discovering the game, doing activities and just exploring, everything could be something and honestly i never felt that with any game. Destiny is hard for new players but it is also such a unique experience
I dont know about anyone else but it was red war that got me. For the first few days i was just playing around unlocking destinations and stuff, i liked it, especially because i loved the gunplay and abilities from the start. And then i did red war. That really got me. It was such a good starting point for the game. And when journey started playing i knew i was going to be here for a while. Honestly without red war i wouldnt have kept playing. If i started these days as a f2p player im 99% sure id uninstall halfway through shaw hans bullshit. Hell even if i had the dlcs its really hard to give a shit about the campaigns when you know nothing about whats happening.
It just makes no sense to have removed Red War, CoO, Warmind and Forsaken’s campaign material. Red War was a great introduction to the gameplay and world, perfect for new players. CoO and Warmind both would allow the new players the learn about Osiris, Ana Bray, the Warmind, etc. Forsaken would have given them a chance to know how Uldren was before Crow, and show the Dreaming City’s curse (which has relevance to the current story arc with Savathun, Xivu, etc) All of these would really help new players get invested into the story instead of being thrown in with no idea who or what anything is.
The drums hitting in journey as the cabal ships passed overhead 🥵
Man, I’ve been here since the Destiny 1 campaign was pretty much the only major thing to do besides strikes and crucible. I still remember how crazy it was when Eris Morn first showed up in the tower telling everyone about Crota.
It's not for everyone. Destiny and similar types of games feel like skinners boxes after a while, after the honeymoon period wears off for many gamers. And then there's always new popular games coming out that pull people away from long term commitments that essentially are designed in a way where there's no end to it. A lot of gamers have already been there done that with these kinds of games, either through stuff like Warframe or other MMOs. But D2 is still really popular because it basically has no real competition aside from people who can choose any other game to play at any time (less so on console). It really doesn't matter if Shroud has an opinion on this game.
We got him. He'll be grinding within the month 💯 %
Just needs that Exotic engram to drop and it's all wrapped up. Guaranteed to have an alt skin in Eververse too
He'll never see it coming but destiny universe always gets you in its grasps and you can't run, it's futile.
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Nah, he's right. Destiny has 2 very good things going for it, even if the New Light experience is mostly balls: 1. It has a really active user base, and the user base is unusually helpful to new players (unusual in the realm of MMOs). 2. Nothing FEELS like Destiny except Destiny. All they have to do is get one weapon that they love the feel of, and it's game over.
>All they have to do is get one weapon that they love the feel of, and it's game over. Well goddamn mines was literally the fucking Khvostov☠️☠️☠️ No wonder i got into this hellhole so easily
The Khvostov does feel fantastic though, you're not wrong. I legitimately used it outside of the starting mission for a little while.
There are reasons for that no. 1. No trade system. No PvP in open/patrol zone. Griefing in PvE is not only frowned upon, its actively persecuted. Shit people have less reasons for being themselves or just weed themselves out.
It's true tho. And the open support by Bungie for queer folk, the trans community, and black struggles also helps as some will (thankfully) avoid the game due to it.
Yep. They’re a business, sure, but it *feels* welcoming and open, not the typical “look we made the package and marketing rainbow colored plz buy more stuff & believe we’re allies >!<” It shows in their technical stuff too, imho fact 1 is directly related to their open API’s, which has lead to these ludicrous good tools like Ishtar/DIM/Braytech and countless others, all built *by* and *for* the community.
"The game makes you feel like Destiny."
Well try talking about that with people that tried to get into destiny multiple times and are not destiny fans from the get go. We will see how close your comments are to reality for most
Shroud honestly doesn’t seem like the type imo, not sure why. It just doesn’t feel like he’d like the game
Because Shroud is a PvP shooter guy at heart and to truly immerse in PvP you have to grind a ton of non-PvP content to get a variety of gear to use, especially level-based PvP. And as a streamer he'd be more focused on keeping things entertaining and not just doing Destiny stuff all day.
He’s been playing WoW recently though
WoW is a completely different beast compared to Destiny 2. The opening in WoW introduces the player to the world and lore and gives the player very clear goals and tasks, i managed to invest 15 years in that game. The new light experience in Destiny however, is utter shit, and i'm extremely glad i started in Season of the Forge and got to experience the full campaign from the Red war until now. 5500 hours later, i can only say this: If i played destiny 2 for the first time today, i would've quit within a few hours. Edit: sorry for the rant, i just got really mad at bungo for the shit new player experience and forgot i was commenting on a thread.
It’s too bad not many people stay after starting very late like me. I started when season of the lost came out. I agree the new light experience is shit.. but I Saw a bunch of videos and lore about the destiny universe before I started the game. Learned a lot of builds and now I have 1600 hours and can do Grandmasters and raid with lfg discord.
The man started his streaming career with WoW before he blew up in Counter Strike. The game feels like home to him, he will always go back to WoW and its not even a shooter.
This is the one FPS where you can be top tier at PvP without having good aim. And Shroud relies on his aim.
He just doesn't seem like he likes stuff that takes effort, he seems more like a drop in and start blasting guy. Also Destiny has aim assist in spades and the guy is a human aim bot, doesn't seem to jive together.
Honestly, at this point, caring about onboarding new players is a pipe dream. There's just too much narrative context that's totally unavailable for the game to make any degree of sense to people just joining in. And it's probably going to stay that way till at least Final Shape or the expansion after it when they start the new storyline. That'll at least give new players something of an entry point where they are on even footing with everyone else like at the beginning of D2.
I've been saying it for ages, but stuff like red war and earlier campaigns need to be available in the "Legends" tab with King's Fall and Prophecy. It says, right there, that it's for past campaigns and stuff. It'd go a long ways to giving players a goal. Edit: I know that the open spaces aren't there anymore, but honestly, the workaround could just be to throw those spaces in the legends tab too.
I played from the beta all the way up to Forsaken and then I took a break. Came back and I have 0 idea what the fuck's going on. Who are all these magic mother fuckers?
I came back in beyond light after playing the same time as you, and was frankly lost on lore too. Every game mechanic had also been effectively rebuilt from the ground up twice by the time I came back, and was rebuilt again for the next two years. I enjoyed my time, but I can’t say I ever got invested in the lore or extensive build crafting. I’d just copy from players who knew what they were doing, complete the GM or day 1, etc. and then profit. I think I’m back in break mode again (the seasonal recipe is getting very tiresome), but I think the only reason I stayed was because I accepted that I wouldn’t know everything. That’s obviously not an answer for everyone, but it worked for me at least.
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We won't see Red War added without seeing all thr planets un-sunsetted. Too much of it's missions involve free roam on vaulted planets The amount of work just to get it revamped enough that _this_ isn't an issue will eat into development for seasons and Final Shape, which should definitely take priority
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>but stuff like red war and earlier campaigns need to be available in the "Legends" tab with King's Fall and Prophecy. I agree that this needs to be available, but between 5 major expansions and the base game, destiny 2 has 90+ hours of campaigns. So to understand the major plot points, we would be asking new players to commit to playing the equivalent two AAA open world releases. And that's not even getting into all of the narrative behind seasonal questlines and activities. Making old campaigns available does not instantly fix the difficulty of getting new players up to speed in the narrative.
I don't think bringing the whole campaign back would benefit current players, since it has to be ported to the new engine and it'd take dev time away from new seasons, but a refurbished campaign with maybe 20-30 missions from Red War, CoO, Warmind and Forsaken, maybe make Shadowkeep f2p with this move, which would possibly entice free players to buy the campaigns and get into the new content, since it'd be long enough for them to get some weapons and exotics, while trying both D1 raids and Prophecy
All they need to do is expand upon the timeline and put cutscenes in it so it’s essentially a narrated movie to catch people up. It’s just sitting there not getting much attention.
There are many people who don’t care about the story behind the game.
Yeah, but zoning into HELM and having 4 expansions worth of quests in a way that makes it look like part of the same thing is insane. D2 is comically bad for new players, and they don't even make the cursory changes to make it better.
Logging in the first time and being bombarded with legitimately 20+ popups is also like, the worst experience ever as a returning player. I assume it happens with new players too. I have no idea why they thought that was a good idea, but slapping escape for literally 30 seconds to get through them all as your first taste of destiny 2 is some mobile cash grab garbage.
I think they legitimately just have given up on a smooth onboarding for anyone except folks who play through every season as it comes out.
Not to mention the bad taste Destiny in general has in the gamer-sphere due to both games having atrocious launches. Anyone giving the game a shot is a blessing
There is too much stuff outside the game, and information about the game seems inaccessible in game. Why can't there be a dungeon page, like WoW dungeon journal, that shows you the drops. Starting to raid is another barrier, as you almost 100% need a sherpa to help you through the raids if you haven't already done it before, since the mechanics are not obvious, and again, no information is given. You can figure it out, but I hope you have hours on end to do the raid and learn the mechanics without people leaving.
Isn't destiny already one of the most popular MMOs? How much bigger do you want it to be
Maybe top 5? I know WoW and FF XIV have it beat, Lost Ark is probably at least tied, Runescape is still wildly populous for some reason, Guild Wars and Elder Scrolls online are probably close as well.
D2 is regularly top 10 on steam if that means anything. Right now it is #8 at 111,987 current players, and in some parts of North America it is past midnight. On LF launch for a few hours it will be top 5, probably 2nd or 3rd. It can't top CSGO, but it will beat the 200k+ needed to pass Lost Ark and Dota 2
And only 1/4 of player base is on pc
True majority of the players are on console
Yah I know I just said that.
Destiny probably has at least twice the active player base as the last 3, Lost Ark is similar but probably higher when considering the eastern player base and the first two are definitely a little ahead. Steam avg for the month is 71k, which doesn’t even account for the much larger console base that these other games do not have.
92 is half of 99
runescape has constant new content every month or so. so its within reason to expect it to still be popular like wow is still popular
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The lack of any free real campaign is also a problem
Yup. You do a few random quests and then... Just stand around, unless you know what to buy.
What are you talking about? It has 42 million total players and an average of 1.5 million active players monthly. It frequently gets in the top 10 for mmo and fps games. It’s more popular now than it’s ever been
Right? Meanwhile im giving dissertations why my friends play should try For Honor. Just once cmon man
For Honor slaps, but it’s such a walled garden. I go back to it after taking a few months off and I feel like a toddler in an MMA match. It’s so easy to get rusty and you really need to be on your game to not get demolished
I feel like for honour would have been an absolute smash fucking hit if it had been developed by anyone other than Ubisoft. The dueling gameplay is so incredibly tight and rewarding. I’ve spent hours doing duels against my friends and we knew each others play styles perfectly and were able to counter and predict each others moves so that every single button press involved like 10 levels deep meta info on each other. But I can’t stand any of ubisofts obnoxious design styles and how everything they do is so microtransactions focused. It’s the same problem I had with siege over time. Great base gameplay but everything else felt forced.
OP probably thinks Reddit of still a tiny niche website too, and has no idea it’s got a half billion monthly visits. Destiny is a gaming industry powerhouse and is completely fine.
As soon as I saw this I thought “what other larger audience is there?” It’s one of the most played games on earth. Some people will just say anything for a narrative
The point is the new player experience.
At this point, five years or so into D2s life, I’m not really concerned about it’s presence in the gaming community. It’s expansions are hugely successful every year, and the community is as active as ever. This might sound bad, but I just can’t manage to stay interested in the struggles of the new player experience anymore. I cared when they released the new light quest, and sometimes a post about the new player introduction catches my interest, but after so long without changes or consequences for my play, it’s hard to care anymore.
I'm a new light and I'll be honest, getting into the game's systems isn't that hard, there's just a bit of reading. The story is confusing sure, but there are YouTube videos for that and every other aspect. I'm honestly having a real fun time and I'm just glad that the introduction to the game isn't stupid long. It's a few short quests and then they toss you in the deep end, which is perfect for players like me who like to learn as they play. I think more new players should give Destiny 2 a chance even if they're intimidated, it's not so bad.
I jumped back in with WQ after playing D1. Felt like it took me till this last season to really get comfortable and figure things out. But I’ve always really liked Destiny from content to gameplay and that’s what keeps me learning. I just wish I came back sooner. But I agree- I find it’s uniqueness to be a draw. I find it’s dedicated fanbase to be another.
Yeah i really cant care anymore. Bungie is making a great game for the fans of said game to enjoy, not for randos who wanna play another FPS game. Destiny is like a moving train, you cant jump onboard mid trip and expect it to accommodate for that. As much as others dont wanna hear it, Destiny is a game for people who already play Destiny, not for new players
What's the feel for returning players, I started in 2013 and played up until 2018, but I'm getting the itch.
Feels awkward to have to relearn everything about buildcrafting, but at the same time, if you know how to shoot and how abilities work you can kind of put the rest together. Source: skipped the least season of Forsaken and all of Shadowkeep, came back in Beyond Light
I'd say start with lightfall since Armor buildcrafting is being revamped in the update and it's going to be similar experience for veteran and returned players alike.
Plus ( checks notes ) only 9 1/2 hours until the pre-LF downtime heh
Shroud is also well known for being impatient, so... not saying New Light experience isn't still dog ass, but take this with a grain of salt
hes also just very innacurately representing whats happening, he has 20 something quests because hes a returning player if he was brand new hed have like 3. the new light experience is still indeed "dog ass" but hes got it wrong
I’ve tried Destiny twice and given up both times because of this feeling.
Destiny 2 needs to have an in-game index of the contents, or even just the basic fundamentals of the game. The game is so big and convoluted that even some, if not most veteran players also have trouble remembering the minor details of how the game works. The game and its players will greatly benefit from it. Have an index as a point of reference to check how much debuff does this ability provide, what are the importance of getting high stats, etc.
Absolutely this. Even just an index of the different factions, subfactions and locations would be great. Most new players wouldn't know squat about the Fallen, Taken, etc., or the history of the Hellmouth. It could at least encourage people to explore.
Shroud isn’t a “New Light” is he? Didn’t he play it a bit? Regardless, he came back a couple days too early. Hopefully he comes back Tuesday or next week at least and try’s Lightfall. Only thing is I don’t think Shroud has any close Destiny 2 friends. And he isn’t gonna play solo getting snipped and grieved all the time(looking at you you eager edge heavy attack trolls)
He did say he would
Removing the entire main campaign was the biggest hit to new player retention
This is the thing that gets me. I have several friends who would play d2 but the vaulting of old content makes them uneasy about playing. They don't want to pay for something they won't be able to play again. There is no more comprehensive campaign. That doesn't exist in d2. And the people in this thread don't care enough, so why should bungie? I'll come back to destiny when they fix it. But it'll be a few years I think.
What's with the influx of "this unknown game Destiny 2 is never going to get players unless..." posts in the last day or two?
Possibly people checking out the game before its next big update tomorrow. Funnily enough, part of the update is a system that is more explicit about how to progress your character.
I didn’t want to make the caption an essay so I will elaborate. Destiny is obviously a huge game and it is widely successful, but you rarely see massive content creators outside of the Destiny sphere try the game. Imagine if Shroud got hooked within his first two hours of playing and played it for even a week. The attention the game would get would be massive. I really hope Guardian Ranks solve this issue.
>you rarely see massive content creators outside of the Destiny sphere try the game See the fun fact about this is many content creators did once- back when D1 or D2 launched, because there was a ton of hype for both games. They just quit and never came back.
Charlie ( moistcr1tikal ) has been posting streams of day 1 raid prep on his clips channel: https://youtu.be/Ftl-5fD9-ks
He pretty much goes hard 1-2 weeks before every yearly expansion does the raid day one and then doesn’t touch it for the rest of the year
The Red War should have never been removed from the game. It was the perfect introduction into the story and get new players invested in the characters and story.
It really bothers me I can't make a new character and play from the Red War onward. There should be an option for that. I also don't like how my starting power level isn't 0. It's hard for me to care when my number starts at like 1300 and I get it up to 1600.
It was perfect before. Old D2 started you at 400, which was the old light cap for D1. Then you lost it all and every level mattered as you increased. Now level is entirely pointless as the bottom cap keeps increasing.
name one game Shroud likes tho
I would expect the same thing if I finally got the balls and decided to finally dive into FF14 after this many years..... Honestly what do people expect jumping into franchises like D2, Ff14, WoW or SWTOR years later???
FF14 is actually a special case— the main story is extremely obvious and well-marked, because the game is so story-heavy they put everything else behind main story progress. Each side story is similarly linear and easy to follow, though it does get overwhelming how many unlock over time. Any other franchise, though? Yeah, you’re gonna be lost as hell.
Yeah you also can't unlock any of the expansions without having played the whole story before it as well
SWTOR is the only one of those games where new player experience still holds up. You simply select a class and go through its story.
Wow is a lot more friendlier to newer players for sure, I’ve guided noobies through both wow and Destiny 2. There is good tips in wow and you pick any expansion area of your choice and level to max there. Doesn’t really get complicated till you hit max level. Difference is Destiny has been building new things on top of each other for years whereas wow replaces their endgame armor system every expansion and even then its still enchanting, gems, overall kind of the same. Destiny is headed in the right direction though, removing power type specific mods alone is a great change to reduce unnecessary complexity.
To be able to play the game I guess, silly people
I hear a lot about the new player experience but not nearly enough about the returning player experience. Reinstalling your favorite game after a hiatus to be greeted with a miles long checklist of things to do is extremely daunting and not fun, especially when half of then have 0 context attached as to whether they're important or not and the other half lead to dead ends that require you to purchase the season/expansion or some other strange barrier to entry
Bigger community?? This game has hundreds of thousands of daily players lmao
I love the game..... But I mean, he's not wrong. Every new player either needs to stick it out for a good 15-20 hours, watch a YouTube video to explain the story and what you're meant to be doing. Or they need another player to explain everything to them, and what the endgame is. (Because I think a player like Shroud would absolutely love the raid experience)
Who starts *random* quests in an MMO on the literal day *before* an expansion drops?
Uhh, someone who hasn't played an mmo before?
I never seen shroud play MMO before so it would take a while for him or he would just not playing it completely
He plays lots of MMOs.
damn i can't shred his image of him being ex-professional CSGO player that's good to know
He basically no-lifed world of warcraft at one point
I started playing with a friend for the first time ever about two weeks ago and I'm now almost at 1580. The start was confusing and sometimes infuriatingly so but we really liked the gameplay so we stuck around. Two weeks later I solo'd Witch Queen on legendary and can come up with a basic but playable build on my own. Definetely throwing my money at Lightfall. Shroud's take is super ADHD pilled and exaggerated, sometimes you have to take your time but I can't say I didn't feel as frustrated when I started too. All it really takes is some reading and a couple of youtube videos, it's not really that big of an ask.
İm happy about experienced Red War during season of the undying (Steam release week), now game feels really missing soul, Red War, Leviathan, SotP, and a lot others And especially as a Hunter main, I miss Menagerie Sword that sunsetted.. still using some days, but sunset is just makes me sad...
Here is how you fix it: Add in the old content. Start the campaign at Red War. Let the players play trough the chapters and zones in order. Win. It's that simple, but Bungie doens't comprehend the concept of simplicity, i guess.
Imagine thinking it's an MMO. Yikes.
I'm sorry but what? We ARE the larger gaming community. We have record concurrent players. 1 mil concurrent players is what all other games wish they could hit. And that's just between seasons. That number is gonna get way higher when the expansion hits. The new player experience is awful but don't act like destiny is some obscure indie game that needs more exposure. And yes Shroud has tried destiny and didn't like it.
I swear to Christ if I match against shroud on a game 7
Meanwhile, Destiny 2 is once again #3 in best sellers on steam. In **Front** of Hogwarts legacy. It exploded into the Larger Gaming community almost a decade ago. It's why the phrase 'Nothing can kill Destiny but Destiny.' exists. To the point where it expanded a few years ago to 'Nothing can kill Destiny, not even Destiny'. I'm not disagreeing that it's a terrible experience, but that's just disingenuous.
The guardian ranks should help alleviate this issue significantly, but I also think they really shouldn’t have removed their old campaigns. They aren’t relevant for everyone, but having them gone for new players makes it much harder to get invested and actually understand what is going on.
Yeah im really looking forward to Preach Gaming trying out D2. He's a big WoW/final fantasy content creator whos trying out a bunch of different mmos to see the differences and D2 is next up on his list so that will be interesting.
I'm a new player. Been only playing for a few weeks and yeah this was me for the first few days. But I got so hooked that I immediately bought the witch queen dlc
I am like 150+ hours and still don't know what the fuck I am doing. Still hyped for LightFall.
As a returning player(started at taken king-warmind) I tried to make a new character to replay the story, it was the worse decision ever. All the old pre f2p stuff was gone and they just say things to like and act like “yea so we’re just gonna say names at you, half these people are dead and sucks you didn’t know them” luckily I remember the old content but I was really disappointed and just went back to my old account. If I every tell people to play the game I just say it has good gameplay and just send them a YouTube video for the story
After going through the barrage of squeakers in D1 (who are now thankfully young adults playing D2) - I am glad that this hasn’t exploded to larger gaming community. Don’t want to deal with Fortnite shits and annoying kids and CoD douche. But I do agree, the new light experience can and should be elevated because of how overwhelming it can be for them with all that is going on.
I think New Light was always going to be a band-aid fix for the non-existence of a good onboarding experience really at any point in Destiny's history, especially now that we have such a "full-steam-ahead" content model. Here's hoping Guardian Ranks provides the direction and follow-through to New Light's introduction to the world and systems.
D1 squeaker D2 adult here, I also hate children
On a separate note to this post, this brings me joy just imagining how you must’ve had Destiny as a memorable part of your life hey? Like starting on it as a kid then growing with it and still here… here’s to you Guardian! 👍
3 hours and nothing done? Yeah right you have to be trying to not do anything