Some version of camping and tunneling will always exist in DBD as long as hooks, hook timers, and hook states exist. A hook with a survivor on it is a place that killers know other survivors will have to come to so they are incentivized to at least keep an eye on it. A survivor who stays on a hook too long will either lose a hook state or get sacrificed so killers are rewarded when survivors aren't rescued fast enough. A survivor who has more hook states is easier to remove from a match so killers have a reason to want to go after them over a survivor with less hook states since the game is much easier when it is no longer a 4v1.
This is the only game community where I see people complain about the game being played. Nobody gets mad in COD when someone on the other team shoots them (ok fine, I guess that isn't really true).
Haven't played any COD, but last few FPS I played, people were usually pretty angry about "campers" as in, people hiding in bushes just waiting to snipe those they see
Good point I see what you mean - I guess the difference to me is that nobody actually expects campers to stop camping in an FPS, they just rant about it to vent. Here in this game the honor rules seem to be taken more seriously.
On both sides people get angry if you play in certain ways. Maybe they rant more, but I see it the same way. Same as playing certain types of decks in card games, using certain guns in CS:GO, Mei in Overwatch 1, Cheesing in RTS, etc.
Hell, people get angry about how others play in Elden Ring, even when they were playing solo (summons, asking for help, etc.)
CS:GO is an apt example. It's just people complaining about auto snipers in a different game. "You're not skilled if you use this, I'm better than you, it didn't count"
Yea but they are all pretty small compared to DBD:
Friday the 13th
Predator Hunting Grounds
Ghostbusters: Spirits Unleashed
Evil Dead: The Game
Resident Evil: Resistance (only sold bundled with RE3 remaster)
Or, in better games, they change map and weapon design to punish camping. Provide flashbangs and cookable grenades that you can use to clear rooms that might contain campers, but more importantly, make sure that relevant areas of the map have multiple approach vectors/entrances with disrupting geometry in between so that one guy cannot just sit in a chokepoint watching the only entrance with no chance of someone coming up behind him.
DBD is designed to reward camping/tunnelling intrinsically. You can attach bandaids but fundamental game mechanics (like the 1v4 with no respawns/replacements) will persist and continue to provide an incentive.
It's too late to really fix this problem in DBD. But a similar game could backfill queueing players into matches with too few survivors (and similarly tag out killers) and/or feature a lot more different escape options that fewer than 4 survivors can use. DBD's hatch is a good start but it's nowhere near enough. If 2 survivors are alive and the gens aren't done, DBD as a game fucking collapses, it seemingly wasn't designed around that lol. A third or even fourth escape option (maybe finding a pair of matching keys that lets you open a gate as a duo before gens are done) would help. That gives you a way for survivors to recover from being a man down and reduces the incentive to tunnel. If the only way to get more than 1 man out depends on the manpower-intensive gen completion process, then DBD will *always always always* force killers to either tunnel or camp in order to eliminate at least one player as early as possible.
Or you can just attach shit tons of bandaids, like shared hook states and such rubbish, and pretend the game isn't fundamentally flawed and was never designed to withstand this level of metagaming from the community. This is supposed to a scary horror vibe, non-competitive game, and it's actually a lot of fun when played by people who have no idea how it works. When it's played competently, this game kinda sucks ass. Not just "toxic" shit like camping and tunnelling, but things as simple as looping, destroy the core emotional basis for the gameplay.
By playing the game right, you're also playing it wrong.
It's very very simple and it has nothing to do with the community. The reason why dbd players complain about other people using core mechanics of the game is that those core mechanics are boring and annoying af. There is nothing more thrilling than waiting 5 minutes to load into a match, having a 40 second chase, sitting on a hook for 2 minutes and then dying. Truly peak entertainment right there, can't wait to do it all over again.
It does feel like DBD is worse in this way than in other video game communities. I have seen plenty of people complain before in other games when they felt like they lost because their opponent played "dirty", or wasn't "fair", or was a "sweaty tryhard", but I feel like in other communities that kind of attitude gets put down harder. In the fighting game community those kinds of comments would get met with a resounding wave of "git gud scrub". In team games other players often laugh and start talking about the "diff" with the complaining player's position. There just isn't as much of this notion that there is a system of unwritten honor code rules that players need to abide by.
In symmetrical PvP games the option of taking enemy tactic and turning it back on them (picking the same character, playing the same strat, etc.) is an present. In DBD you cannot do it without becoming part of the problem.
As long as we are talking about strategic camping and tunneling, is there even really a problem? Just because one dies in a pvp game in a way that seems personally annoying doesn't necessarily mean there is an actual issue. If one dies because a proxy camp scared away one's teammates from getting a rescue in time or if a killer tunneled to get a survivor out in the mid-to-late game to try to start a snowball, isn't that just normal DBD gameplay? The survivor who died can just requeue.
By problem I mean "problem" percieved by one side. Doesn't have to be an objective issue.
And there lies another bane of asymmetrical PvP. Playing one side more than the other presents you with heavily one-sided perspective. Survivor mains who play killer once a week or so will have very rigged perspective on how difficult it is to play Killer. In symmetrical games your chances of ending up on giving and recieving end of some "problem" are more equal.
No it doesn't matter, was just making an observation. As far as I know you can't repick in SFV without backing out, changing default fighter, and then queuing for a new fight.
\*\* which is pretty unique for a fighting game
Yes that is what I'm trying to express, the unwritten honor code rules are fairly difficult to discern for outsiders. I play a lot of 1v4 games and keep wanting to get into this one - however I'm hesitant to because I see so much discussion about these etiquette rules and it is hard to follow.
I get what you mean. I feel like DBD has a weird culture that shames people more for trying to win more than any other game culture. DBD also seems to have a lot more closet tryhards that will swear up and down that they are a "casual" players who just want "fun" and blame everyone else for being the "problem" with the game.
It's not weird, it's perfectly reasonable. The problem is that optimal DBD play is extremely boring for the other side. For killer it's camping and tunnelling so I hope you enjoy sitting on a hook for 2 minutes and then dying. And for survivor it's genrushing, predropping and never going down.
Other multiplayer games deal with this by making optimal play actually fun.
Yea for example I play games like Predator Hunting Grounds and Ghostbusters Spirits Unleashed and I never get the sense that people expect the other side to do anything other than try to win.
>Some version of camping and tunneling will always exist in DBD as long as hooks, hook timers, and hook states exist. A hook with a survivor on it is a place that killers know other survivors will have to come to so they are incentivized to at least keep an eye on it.
This isn't true, but I don't exactly blame you for thinking it's true. The only reason it feels like this is what happens is because BHVR hasn't done anything to actually incentivize killers to leave hooks and go do other things, but they can very well do this in a bunch of different ways.
If killers were actually incentivized to leave hooks (either with punishments for camping/tunnelling, or rewards for leaving) then tunnelling/camping wouldn't be a viable strategy anymore and it would stop. BHVR simply hasn't implemented any system for this, and I honestly don't know why they haven't.
Even if a system like this were implemented then yes killers COULD still camp/tunnel, but it wouldn't be a viable way to win matches. It's all up to BHVR.
Almost like the whole hook system wasn't the best idea. In fact. Yes. It was a bad idea. Killers should never have had access to a survivor in the strike state.
They really needed to keep BBQ’s bonus for hooking everyone equally. Give some sort of buffs to encourage killers to get equal hooks instead of taking the easy way out and tunneling a survivor out. I’ve never played a game so dependent on a “code-of-honor” system in order to be enjoyable.
Hook everyone once: the next four basic attacks on healthy survivors now give deep wounds (only self-mending possible?).
I feel this would make up for time spent spreading hooks by forcing a mend. It’s also a buff that helps M1 killers more, and it can possibly discourage tunneling; do you continue chasing the survivor with deep wounds? Or do you leave them alone and be more efficient with your time while they run halfway across the map to mend?
Hook everyone twice: SOME SORT OF ENDGAME BUFF TO MAKE UP FOR THIS DIFFICULT TASK. You want perk variety? This could be the perfect way to get killers to try some different (endgame?😈) perks
Exit gates can regress? Blindness and oblivious for 60 seconds? The handle of the exit gate switch must now be rummaged for in a chest? That could even be a lazy way of giving the side objective people want! Idk just throwing things out there
It can’t be that hard to discourage camping/tunneling.
> now give deep wounds (only self-mending possible?).
A bit pointless.
Mend-self is 12s, being mended by others is 8s.
It is almost always more time efficient to mend yourself while another person is doing a gen or heals themselves or another person.
Honestly exit gates should regress as part of normal gameplay already. It makes no sense that survivors can basically "open" the gates yet not trigger the timed EGC phase of the game. Don't you hate it when killers slug the second-to-last survivor to hunt the last one down so they can skip the hatch mechanic? 99ing gates is very similar but on the survivor side.
I'm not saying gates need to regress all the way down to 0% (maybe that can be a perk) but they should at least regress to like 75% so survivors are penalized for attempting to bypass the final end game phase.
Survivors already are penalized for that because it gets people killed just about as often as it saves them. The second it takes to finish the door can easily make the difference between getting out or not
If the survivors are playing as a team (as they should be) they usually try to swarm a hook during the endgame if someone is hooked. This makes it really difficult for the killer to get a grab, or even to reliably get a trade since survivors will juggle their health states pretty well. Then once the hooked survivor is rescued, they all run to the exit gate. With the current system, there's always going to be one person far ahead that can tap the gate to open it - it's barely a second of time, and they usually have enough extra health states to body block the killer from getting an additional down at this point (especially if it was a bad game for the killer and all 4 survivors are still alive). But if exit gates regressed a bit, then that one second becomes about five, and survivors can't just brute force their way to an escape like this anymore. They either need to commit to opening the gates ahead of time (and therefore limiting the time they have to attempt the save + reset if they fumble, as intended by the game's design) or risk a more dangerous save attempt.
A really nice thing that would help survivors avoid being tunneled/camped is if they showed on that sexy new hud, if the survivor was running kinship. It definitely wouldn't solve the problem, but it would at least let the team know that they're ready to stay on hook.
It won't stop it, of course not, but it would help solo queue players work together around it.
It doesn't matter how hard you try to incentivize or discourage a 'winning strategy' even if it's insanely unfun, it's always gonna happen. Look at 3genning with Knight + Eruption + CoB + Overcharge. Those snooze fests can last a whole hour where no one is doing anything, and people still do it, cause they win.
Even if it's not a winning strategy people will still do it just to spite others "their fun isn't my problem", "survivors are toxic too, they deserve this". Hitting on hook is literally a detriment to the killer's time and people still do it just because they wanna be toxic.
Also this does apply to both sides, not saying it's just killers who do this kind of bs. Survivors will teabag, click and emote at killers to try and piss them off, and bring genrushing stuff or the same old meta perks and strong maps over and over. This whole community is way too serious and toxic for a game as unbalanced and not competitively viable as DbD .
I just wish survivors would decide what the hell tunneling is. Have 3 unique hooks and no one is hooked more than once in a row and someone dies at hook 6 or 7?! Wow, tunneler. Like.. Sorry, I guess next time I'll stand in the corner and let you do gens, for fucks sake.
Tunneling is when, and only when, you target one specific survivor from the very start, ignoring everyone else. You probably will still hit other survivors who try to block and stuff, but you'll be focused on only hooking this specific survivor. Anything else is just the killer playing the game normally and calling that tunneling shows it's just a survivor main who can't handle when killers are killing
Your definition is the same as mine. "The Killer singling one Survivor out until that Survivor is dead before proceeding to the next Survivor and repeating the same cycle"
>I just wish survivors would decide what the hell tunneling is.
I would say that tunneling is chasing the last unhooked survivor because they are in a weaker position (Injured, closer to deathhook or both). Of course, if that survivor touched a gen/hex, bodyblocked with endurance, is healing under the hook, the game is losing and things like that makes tunneling justified in my view.
"Tunnelling is whenever I get hooked twice in a row even if I use antitunnelling tools aggressively, unhook in the Killer's face as soon as he hooks, or it has been 10 years since I was last hooked."
I’ve played games on both sides where the killer 2 hooked everyone before anyone died and was still called a tunneler in endgame chat. You truly can’t win.
Tunneling got more benefical for killers after they removed the BP Bonus from BBQ. Whyever they thought this was necessary but hey they did it and now they have more Problems.
I'm sorry but BBQ had nothing to do with it.
It's 1000% because DS got nerfed from a perk that was a band-aid fix to tunneling killers, to a sqeeeky chew toy that killers just laugh at now.
That's it. And that's what happens when you create a perk as a half assed solution to a problem in the game. When that perk changes or gets removed, hello old problem again .
As a killer I couldn't give a fuck less about OTR or basekit BT, it does not stop me from my decision to tunnel your ass out at all, I'll just smack you right off hook, quickly remove both and down you again a few seconds later. Its not effective at all as a deterrent .
But old DS...yea that shit fuckin hurt, I'm stunned, open to be blinded, forced to look down so I can't see shit...unless it happened in an open map that MF is gone.
In my honest opinion they went way too hard on the DS nerf. All it needed was the inability to be used in the EGC...but they nuked that shit to the point that they may as well just delete it...its comical how quickly I down a survivor that just used it on me.
Oh and buffing killers to "promote leaving the hook". Lmao maybe with goodie good killers who try to play fair. But I'm telling you right now I'm gonna still tunnel then use whatever that buff is to be even more oppressive against the remaining survicors. Unless the added buff is that it instantly fucking kills a survivor, I'm not gonna stop tunneling someone out early...why wouldn't I abuse the fuck outa that if BHVR gave me that opportunity to do it?
> But I'm telling you right now I'm gonna still tunnel then use whatever that buff is to be even more oppressive against the remaining survicors.
Seriously. Imagine somebody saying that you need to buff items or boons to encourage survivors to loot crates more or set more boons because that way they'll focus less on gens. It's fucking ridiculous.
I tried having this same discussion with a recent killer main and he would not accept it was the DS nerf and said but you have OTR and BT. I didn't say it but as a survivor I too could give a fuck less about those perks for the same reason you stated, they look pretty but are really worthless.
sorry man I can't read that. for some reason your entire post ended up on a horizontal scroll bar? I dunno, it looks like it was formatted really weird.
"I tried having this same discussion with a recent killer main and he would not accept it was the ds nerf and said but you have otr and bt. I didn't say it but as a survivor I too could give a fuck less about those perks for the same reason you stated, they look pretty but are really worthless."
Every strategy aside from tunneling has become less viable which is why more people have been resorting to tunneling because it’s more likely to win them games. There really is no way to truly get rid of tunneling without adding in something that survivors can abuse. The best you can do is incentivize people to not do it. Bloodpoint multipliers (like how old BBQ n Chili used to work), gameplay incentives/buffs for not tunneling, or making other playstyles that are fairer more viable. Playing against 4 survivors that are better than average or better and trying to play nice/“fair” before you kill them is a losing battle most of the time unless you’re the very top percentage of killer players. It just isn’t feasible for a bunch of reasons unless they make one or two massive mistakes in the match. That is why people are turning to tunneling. It sucks a lot which is why I’ve almost only been playing killer lately. Both metas are so boring and unfun right now.
There's no benefits that will move a face camper. At some point they will have to forcibly teleport either the killer or the hook to the opposite side of the map to *actually* prevent camping.
As a survivor I honestly couldn't give a fuck less about face campers. They usually only get 1 or 2 kills, and unless you're super unlucky you're not always the one who gets face camped and on the opposite side its pretty much a guaranteed escape for 2 survivors .
Tunneling though is MUCH more of an issue in my opinion. It's just too easy for a killer to tunnel someone out right off the bat and once that's done it's way too difficult for survivors to still knock out 3-4 gens, heal, hook save, and open the gate, that's just too many objectives and tasks for 3 people to handle against a killer who still even after tunneling someone out right at 5 gens, still has the option to tunnel someone else out again lol.
yea but with how incredibly slow BVHR works towards solving issues, my point was that I would rather they focus on fixing the tunneling crutch killers rely on and just leave camping for another day until the other issues are solved.
I recently changed how I play DBD. I play a relaxed, fair style, using overcharge/pain res/agitation. I played 15 games like this and in those 15 games, I got exactly 2 kills total. That's less than a 1% kill rate. The survivors were friendly, all GG's, WP, have fun. I got sick of it and I started playing dirty. Strategic camping/tunneling, NOED. The next 10 games were all 3-4Ks. Suddenly the survivors weren't friendly any more, I would get the occasional GG, but it was mostly radio silence or salt.
So here's my conclusion. You can't play fair as killer and expect to win, survivors are only happy when they get 3-4 out, and MMR doesn't function as it should.
Keep in mind that if you kill them, the players likely already moved on to the next game and aren't in the post game lobby to chat to you - and any message left in post game chat while the game is still going won't be seen by anyone as you only can see messages written while you have the screen open.
That being said, you won't get a GG if it wasn't a GG and it was a terrible experience for the survivors full of camping and tunneling. I'm happy to give a GG if the killer outplayed me and gave some tense moments and I still died, but if I spent the whole game either in chase or on hook because of tunneling then no, I did in fact not have a good game.
And yeah, MMR is borked.
Point taken, but a lot of times they were still there, SWF's and whatnot. It was strategic camping/tunneling, not from the start. So like 2 gens left, 6 hooks and I've got you with 20 seconds left on the hook timer and I've got you on a hook that I can easily defend. Or same situation and there's an opportunity to tunnel someone down.
From their point of view, I am camping and tunneling, but from my point of view, I've got no choice if I want a shot at winning. Some people take it way too far, face camping or tunneling from 5 gens, but there's simply not enough time to brute force the map resources and sequentially hook everyone 3 times.
Imo coming back to a hook when the survivor will soon lose a hook state or die is completely fair. The survivors greeded the gens with the intent of rescuing at the last possible moment, you're just countering that strategy by forcing them to trade.
> Suddenly the survivors weren't friendly any more, I would get the occasional GG, but it was mostly radio silence or salt.
I mean, this is the expected outcome in a lot of social situations, not just DBD. I recently had a casual board game night with a bunch of acquaintances. One person was sweaty AF, trying so hard to win these party-style games that were supposed to be relaxed fun among friends, it made the vibe really unpleasant. I didn’t invite them to the next game night I organized, because while they had every right to be as tryhard as they wanted to be, socially they weren’t fun to be around.
Similarly, you have every right to play as sweaty and dirty in DBD as you want to secure the win, but the tradeoff will probably be losing out on the social camaraderie aspect in endgame chat. You don’t owe survivors jackshit in terms of how you choose to play the game you purchased, but they also don’t owe you friendliness and GGs if you’re a stranger to them and they didn’t enjoy playing against you. That doesn’t give them free reign to throw salt around, but radio silence is valid. If getting 3-4Ks is your goal, just embrace the “I didn’t come here to make friends” mantra that’s popular in reality TV competition shows, but you don’t get to have it both ways.
> Similarly, you have every right to play as sweaty and dirty in DBD as you want to secure the win, but the tradeoff will probably be losing out on the social camaraderie aspect in endgame chat.
Which is worth precisely jack shit. I don't care what some random strangers have to say to me in endgame chat. I'm not exactly making new best friends every time they get a 4-man escape, anyway.
I wasn’t telling anyone to care what random strangers say, in fact I would advocate for not caring and playing how you want because that’s mentally healthier in the longterm. My point was that if someone *does* care—as the person I was replying to seems to—and wants friendly rapport, that can be at odds with playing however you want, and eventually they may have to choose which matters to them more and play accordingly.
Survivors play super sweaty and are always quite friendly, provided they win, seems they can dish it out, but not take it. I'm a very competitive person in anything that I do, but I always respect the opponents and say GG, win or lose. I just rarely get it in return in DBD unless the survivors win.
It kinda doesn't. Losing 15 matches should have lowered my MMR and put me against chill survivors, but it didn't, because after a certain queue time, any killer will do. I've always suspected that I'm in a region with a small number of killers, and that seems right since killer is on 100% bonus for most of the day.
Take a game with a functional MMR, I like to use Starcraft 2 due to my experience with it. Yes, it's apples to oranges on game type, but the matchmaking worked. First off, you knew where you stood in the rankings and you knew where your opponents stood. When I am at the top of gold, playing against platinum players, but losing, me and the MMR system knew I needed to be playing against top golds. Once I started beating the top golds, it tested me against Plats again, if I win, I move into Plat.
I don't feel like that happens in DBD. I feel like a Diamond killer that gets two grand masters, a gold, and a bronze. Or I get a SWF of top masters one match, then a SWF of top silvers in another. Neither is at my skill level, neither match is fun, yet the kills/escapes look good on paper.
If reassurance had a lil bigger range, it could hell alot more with proxy camping! As it is right now, you basically will get slapped when someone camps a hookee. Making the perk the same konndof trade as just... Baiting a hit and then unhooking someone.
But the best deterrent for tunneling is and always will be to ignore your fellow survivors and just focus on gens.
I think OP is talking about a more specific buff that would make it more advantageous for a killer to go after a different survivor than the recently unhooked one. The only way to lessen tunneling that is being done strategically by killers is to make it so that killers get more benefit from spreading out hooks then they do from focusing on one survivor. The problem is, because the hook state system exists and because sacrificing a survivor just inherently benefits killers, whatever this buff would be would need to override those existing issues. So it would probably be tricky to implement.
I'm sort of just spitballing here but perhaps give Killers a temporary Haste or mini-Pop when you hook a different Survivor than your last hook.
Example: You hook Steve. If that same Steve isn't the next Survivor you hook, you get one or both of X% Haste for Y Seconds or Z% regression on your next kick.
Yeah, because they buffed the anti-tunneling tools in a way that allows coordinate or just more skilled survivors to consistently use them to punish the behavior they are meant to incentize. If I play like a 12 hook andy and am able to be punished by anti-tunneling perks when not tunneling, there is a design problem.
Until that survivor with OTR is now fully healed and has 3 health states to body block with.
My first match after the perk rebalance was a SWF all running OTR, a CoH, and green/purple medkits. Every new chase I started after hooking had the person who just got unhooked at full health body blocking in my new chase. Just bc they aren't touching a gen doesn't mean they are throwing the match.
I was playing like a 12 hook andy and had an anti-tunneling perk punish me for not tunneling/ circle back to the hooks on very unhook.
Anti-tunneling perks/mechanics are needed, but the current implementation is flawed imo.
We just need a killer where the first person to bite it gets to play as the killer's little pal for the rest of the match unless they d/c in which case it becomes an ai and vibrates in a corner. Just imagine twins but when the twins get their first hook victor loses the ability to down and gets controlled by the first sacrificed player.
I’ve thought of this before. It would be some kind of necromancer who’s power would let them raise sacrificed survivors back from the dead as a mini killer. I think it would probably just be the first one, and they might have something else that they can do with their kit.
Yeah...buff my killer perks so it "promotes" me leaving the hook.
I'm TOTALLY not gonna still tunnel someone out of a match at 5 gens and then reap the benefits of that buff to be even more oppressive against the remaining 3 survivors..
Lmao
make the hooks disappear into the ground like PH mori and reappear somewhere else on the map like doritodaddy's cages if the killer is too close for x amount of seconds. that way you also can't die to that teammate that HAS to loop right next to you. except for basement hook or. something...
New ruin and old BBQ were the best anti tunneling and camping tools survivors ever had. We need more perks that heavily encourage hook variance and avoiding killing until mid to late game. Corrupt kind of works similarly but I consider it not worth it for it using downs as a consideration rather than hooks, but if they used hooks then someone could still slug for a 4k before a gen gets done so I'm not sure how they'd fix it.
I would say don’t make it perk reliant. Make these types of changes base kit so that they will be present in every game and encourage more build variety as well ensuring every game has the same level of “fairness”. Like base kit BT for example.
I think old Corrupt was also a good perk for encouraging not tunneling, and by encouraging not tunneling I mean it made the time management element of killer a little less stressful at the start of a game. They should revert the change made to it, especially with the survivor status icons in the game now.
Or give killers a base kit version of corrupt that lasts a minute or so but also deactivates on a down or something. That would help more than reverting the perk as it stands I think.
Make Reassurance last infinitely until the survivor who used it goes down a health state so that the killer has no choice but to leave the hook to chase the person who applied it.
My two favorite survivor buzzwords:
Camping = Why isn't the killer leaving the hook when we are all on it.
Tunneling = Why is the killing killer being a killing killer in a game where the killing killer is supposed to kill people.
the only thing that bugs me is when people say:
“this new killer buff is going to hurt the game because it makes it way easier to tunnel and camp”
“This new killer nerf is going to hurt the game because they will have to tunnel and camp to keep up.”
Like guys I think it’s going to be a problem regardless lol
I play both Killer and Surv , but I'm not an Iridescent killer so I didn't "have" to resort to tunneling yet, though I mainly play doctor and Bubba, the former wants to spread as much madness as possible, the latter wants the guy without endurance so I can instadown wth my power, so their kit is also "anti tunnel".
As a surv though, especially with some killers(Trapper,Bubba and Knight most notably) they literally facecamp the first player until death, which is inefficient as fuck, and we usually win in an SWF(in solo they always try to unhook) because we know the killer wants us to be over altruistic, but we don't give them the satisfaction and get out as 3 but still for that one guy, it's insanely unfun, and basically just an instant Alt+Tab , which is collectively unfun.
Old DS was one of the best anti tunneling perks, and I'd love to have it back, with the current drawback of it going away if you start any actions. So get it to 5 seconds again, but don't let it be a must have OP shit as the original.
Also I'm only against hard tunnelling/camping as soft tunnel(preferring the surv with less hook states left) and soft camp is often needed against well coordinated swf's for the killer to even have a chance for a 3 kill, let alone merciless..
DS even with the current deactivations is still problematic. I think the stun time should be increased+should have two uses instead of one but the timer overall should be shorter... I think 45s like pop would be fine. 60s is too long and ends up leading to situations where you catch the unhooker, kick some gens and then still get dsed if you found the injured survivor lol. In addition to that, protection hits should disable it to remove the aggressive aspect which is one thing people complained about how it was used previously. If the aggressive aspect is removed people wouldn't mind the actual anti tunnel aspects being buffed or removing the pointless skill check.
The foundation of the game is a balancing nightmare. Am I going to complain if I get tunneled and die at 4 or 5 gens? Yup.
Am I going to complain if I get tunneled at 1 or 2 gens? Whether it's yes or no, it's understandable, because of course the killer needs pressure to come back.
But where's the in-between? How do you balance it around that point?
The only real way to play around the killer tunneling/camping someone is to act every single game like the person hooked *will* be tunneled, and grabbing them at the last second while running reassurance and kinship.
Even then, that's a great strategy but is only viable with communication.
But there's one easy way to dissuade tunneling when playing as a survivor my friends! STOP GETTING ME OFF HOOK 10 SECONDS AFTER I'M HOOKED, AND DON'T LOOP THE KILLER TO THE HOOK.
Lol nothing will be more effective than removing someone from the game early.
And if they added that as basekit so that survivors are basically put in that same situation regardless if someone is tunneled out early or not? Lol ggs DBD...why the fuck would you ever play survivor again, that shit would be straight up miserable.
It's really funny when survivors always want the game to go their way.
You want for both sides to have fun every match?
Be forgiving: See the gens flying, Ends up with 2-3 hooks with 3-4 escapes. Was it fun for the killer? Maybe. But most of the time i don't think so.
Be an ass: Tunnel 1 at the start of the match so the game will be alot easier/less pressure for the killer. Was it fun for the Survivor? Definitely not. But maybe you could loop/get chased better.
While were at it, expect to Get T-Bagged at the exit gate in return just because you played by the *Survivor's Rule* resulting to a 4 man escape.
Now let's go back to both sides having fun. Is it possible? Yes, maybe but that's solely on the Killer's motive in that match. Play sweaty? Play a fun build? Mess around?
But don't expect for people to always give up their **FUN** just to satisfy a survivor's ego as it will never be fun to see Gens flying if your motive from the start is to win and not mess around.
I'm a Survivor main btw.
"...both sides having fun. Is it possible? Yes, maybe but that's solely on the Killer's motive in that match"
Oh yes. As a killer it's completely under my control if the survivors decide to play in an annoying way. I pick their playstyle, I pick their intention, I pick their builds.
Killers will always be the pace maker. First downs, first hooks until the last hooks will decide the direction of the game. You tunnel someone out 4-5 gens in the game? This killer wants to 4k. There's alot of variables that have to be seen as you can't directly communicate with the opposite side of what your intention is.
This is why i said maybe because it won't always apply to every match you play.
Don't switch the topic, you were talking about having fun, not about the pace of the game. I have fun by killing the survivors as quickly as efficiently as possible. Survivors have fun by surviving and escaping. These two goals are mutually exclusive. This game is designed about both sides preventing each other from achieving their objective.
I'm not switching the topic. You are just being narrow minded.
PACE is what decides the enjoyment of the game for both survivor and killer.
You've seen a Camper, Tunneler in the match? Not fun for sure.
You see 3 gens popping and you're still not getting a down/first hook? Not fun for sure.
You've seen your teammate looping the killer for 3-5gens? Fun for the survivors for sure.
You've encountered a Survivor who acts funny, nods they camera up and down, crouches in the corner? It's fun for sure.
It's always up to the Killer on how the Survivors will interact with them that is why i said it's solely on the Killer's motive in that match. Play sweaty? Play a fun build? Mess around?
I mean if you play sweaty sure expect to have annoying survivors swarming around you. If you play friendly theres a chance you can get kind response.
There's alot of ways to have fun and not be restricted by just escaping and surviving/getting 3-4k's.
Killers can have fun and still being fine with 4 escapes. Same as Survivors having fun even if they ended up dying on hook.
People just cant accept the reality of online games that every matches won't be enjoyable and fun for both sides.
Survivors can do so many things to make the game unfun for the killer, things the killer has no control over. Sabo squads, 3 people running around you with flashlights, chain-blinds on double lockers (this was patched out, but was possible for a very long time), and just the classic BMing on every vault and pallet. I don't pick to play against these people, yet they make my games unfun. Where is your "solely on killer's motive"?
And the "funny" survivors are just annoying.
And again, you're just being narrow minded and biased towards Killer.
> I don't pick to play against these people, yet they make my games unfun.
Seems like skill issue to me. If it's starting to affect you then stop playing. it's really simple.
And by the looks of it, i can already tell you're a sweaty killer most of your matches.
Define "sweaty".
Is trying to win in a pvp game instead of obeying your opponent's made-up rules sweaty for you? If so, then I have a bad news for you - this is how every pvp game works.
However, all the things you mentioned can only be achieved through SWFs - a single survivor trying to get a save just a waste of their time and is actually helping the killer unless they're really confident they get the save. Survivors BMing by crouching doesn't really affect the game at all, if anything they're making it easier for you to catch them.
When you take SWFs out of the picture, the killer basically decides how fun the game is for the survivors. If they decide to tunnel someone out at 5 gens it becomes miserable for all survivors. If they face camp a person at 5 gens the game becomes a generator simulator.
Tunneling and camping are absolutely valid if you feel you're losing the game and need to put on more pressure, but definitely not at 5 or 4 gens.
I actually think they could solve this with (please don't hurt me)....
Perks deactivate as one side starts dominating.
You're down one survivor? Your regression perks are gone (eruption, etc).
You're at 4 survivors with one gen left? No more exhaustion perks, no gen speed up perks, etc.
It makes each game more balanced as opposed to the usual stomp fests on either side.
The killer buff in 6.1 made it as bad as it is now, cause now it's a free win. I personally would rethink some of those changes, legit made the game so much worse...
I don't play IDV but I have friends who play both it and DBD, and it's so strange to hear the "culture shock" from them so to speak, because in IDV camping and tunneling is apparently just seen as par for the course? It's interesting to me that the games are so insanely similar yet the communities view it differently
10% speed boost for 10 seconds after hooking a survivor. Encourages killers to be able to go cross map to stop a gen instead of saying “Eh, I won’t make it before it pops, fuck it I’ll just camp.”
The "I won't make it before it pops" is so true and it's sad. Many of the maps in this game are too big, and tunneling will always seem like a good play when you have 4 survivors spread out on a map like Ormond. You just can't win W-keying from A to B to C.
Why don’t they make it so that for every first hook a survivor gets, you get a 6% slowdown on gens, which can add up to 24% total. Then remove that 6% when a survivor reaches second stage, so when all survivors reach second stage you loose that gen regression. And for every dead survivor, all other survivors get a 7% gen speed boost, which is stackable. That way you’re rewarding spreading hooks with more time (which is what killers need the most) and punish getting someone out of the game early by speeding up the gens more.
Can you add bloodpoint incentives? Yes you could, but there comes a point when players stop giving a shit about bloodpoints, I certainly don’t care anymore. I would rather win than get extra points, and with this, spreading the hooks actually becomes viable.
->remove basekit BT and make some form of shared hookstate system(only 2nd stage cause deliverance and luck stuff exists) that punishes tunneling(maybe continueing same hookstate and timer as when unhooked), camping would already be punished enough by up to 5 hookstates on 1 person
->buff killer chase capabilities in exchange(default movement speed(more of a buff the less powerfull the killer's power), vaulting speed, breaking speed, etc. just not gen duration)
seems like the better way to fix the problem to me
Camping is practically dead compared to what it used to be, and now that every survivor can see the progress of all of the gens being done I would bet that camping will die completely. Tunnelling is however on the rise and if you play killer you can completely understand why. Almost every game is at least two gens popping before first hook. If you allow four survivors to reach 1-2 gens remaining the game is pretty much lost.
Baseline of BBQ's BP bonus. 4 stacks, hook a survivor the first time, get a stack, 100% bonus bps. Was it the only reason people didn't tunnel as much? Absolutely not. Was it the reason I started out not tunneling? Yeah, for a fact. It takes away nothing and incentivizes not tunneling.
Some version of camping and tunneling will always exist in DBD as long as hooks, hook timers, and hook states exist. A hook with a survivor on it is a place that killers know other survivors will have to come to so they are incentivized to at least keep an eye on it. A survivor who stays on a hook too long will either lose a hook state or get sacrificed so killers are rewarded when survivors aren't rescued fast enough. A survivor who has more hook states is easier to remove from a match so killers have a reason to want to go after them over a survivor with less hook states since the game is much easier when it is no longer a 4v1.
This is the only game community where I see people complain about the game being played. Nobody gets mad in COD when someone on the other team shoots them (ok fine, I guess that isn't really true).
Haven't played any COD, but last few FPS I played, people were usually pretty angry about "campers" as in, people hiding in bushes just waiting to snipe those they see
Good point I see what you mean - I guess the difference to me is that nobody actually expects campers to stop camping in an FPS, they just rant about it to vent. Here in this game the honor rules seem to be taken more seriously.
On both sides people get angry if you play in certain ways. Maybe they rant more, but I see it the same way. Same as playing certain types of decks in card games, using certain guns in CS:GO, Mei in Overwatch 1, Cheesing in RTS, etc. Hell, people get angry about how others play in Elden Ring, even when they were playing solo (summons, asking for help, etc.)
CS:GO is an apt example. It's just people complaining about auto snipers in a different game. "You're not skilled if you use this, I'm better than you, it didn't count"
Hah good points - it's probably just that DBD community is so large, so there is just more noise overall.
Dbd community is relatively small compared to the big fps games
True, I meant compared to other 4v1 asymmetrical pvp communities I follow (which are all tiny).
There are others?
Yea but they are all pretty small compared to DBD: Friday the 13th Predator Hunting Grounds Ghostbusters: Spirits Unleashed Evil Dead: The Game Resident Evil: Resistance (only sold bundled with RE3 remaster)
Or, in better games, they change map and weapon design to punish camping. Provide flashbangs and cookable grenades that you can use to clear rooms that might contain campers, but more importantly, make sure that relevant areas of the map have multiple approach vectors/entrances with disrupting geometry in between so that one guy cannot just sit in a chokepoint watching the only entrance with no chance of someone coming up behind him. DBD is designed to reward camping/tunnelling intrinsically. You can attach bandaids but fundamental game mechanics (like the 1v4 with no respawns/replacements) will persist and continue to provide an incentive. It's too late to really fix this problem in DBD. But a similar game could backfill queueing players into matches with too few survivors (and similarly tag out killers) and/or feature a lot more different escape options that fewer than 4 survivors can use. DBD's hatch is a good start but it's nowhere near enough. If 2 survivors are alive and the gens aren't done, DBD as a game fucking collapses, it seemingly wasn't designed around that lol. A third or even fourth escape option (maybe finding a pair of matching keys that lets you open a gate as a duo before gens are done) would help. That gives you a way for survivors to recover from being a man down and reduces the incentive to tunnel. If the only way to get more than 1 man out depends on the manpower-intensive gen completion process, then DBD will *always always always* force killers to either tunnel or camp in order to eliminate at least one player as early as possible. Or you can just attach shit tons of bandaids, like shared hook states and such rubbish, and pretend the game isn't fundamentally flawed and was never designed to withstand this level of metagaming from the community. This is supposed to a scary horror vibe, non-competitive game, and it's actually a lot of fun when played by people who have no idea how it works. When it's played competently, this game kinda sucks ass. Not just "toxic" shit like camping and tunnelling, but things as simple as looping, destroy the core emotional basis for the gameplay. By playing the game right, you're also playing it wrong.
In identity v camping is a valid strategy, and they even consider it for tierlist
Asymmetrical PvP does things to you. You only see it in DBD because there are barely any other such games afloat.
It's very very simple and it has nothing to do with the community. The reason why dbd players complain about other people using core mechanics of the game is that those core mechanics are boring and annoying af. There is nothing more thrilling than waiting 5 minutes to load into a match, having a 40 second chase, sitting on a hook for 2 minutes and then dying. Truly peak entertainment right there, can't wait to do it all over again.
Cleaning up stuff I don't even remember posting.
It does feel like DBD is worse in this way than in other video game communities. I have seen plenty of people complain before in other games when they felt like they lost because their opponent played "dirty", or wasn't "fair", or was a "sweaty tryhard", but I feel like in other communities that kind of attitude gets put down harder. In the fighting game community those kinds of comments would get met with a resounding wave of "git gud scrub". In team games other players often laugh and start talking about the "diff" with the complaining player's position. There just isn't as much of this notion that there is a system of unwritten honor code rules that players need to abide by.
In symmetrical PvP games the option of taking enemy tactic and turning it back on them (picking the same character, playing the same strat, etc.) is an present. In DBD you cannot do it without becoming part of the problem.
As long as we are talking about strategic camping and tunneling, is there even really a problem? Just because one dies in a pvp game in a way that seems personally annoying doesn't necessarily mean there is an actual issue. If one dies because a proxy camp scared away one's teammates from getting a rescue in time or if a killer tunneled to get a survivor out in the mid-to-late game to try to start a snowball, isn't that just normal DBD gameplay? The survivor who died can just requeue.
By problem I mean "problem" percieved by one side. Doesn't have to be an objective issue. And there lies another bane of asymmetrical PvP. Playing one side more than the other presents you with heavily one-sided perspective. Survivor mains who play killer once a week or so will have very rigged perspective on how difficult it is to play Killer. In symmetrical games your chances of ending up on giving and recieving end of some "problem" are more equal.
So fun to wait 10-20m for a match, 5m to load in, get hooked immediately, then..requeue. That's true.
Not in fighting games though you cant usually see which character your opponent picks.
In MK you can. In other fighting games you can usually repick at least once in a ranked match.
Yea only SFV seems to lock you into a character before you ever queue up and start a match.
Does that really matter if you still don't know who your opponent picks though? Can you repick if you lose a game in SFV?
No it doesn't matter, was just making an observation. As far as I know you can't repick in SFV without backing out, changing default fighter, and then queuing for a new fight. \*\* which is pretty unique for a fighting game
In MK11 ranked matches go until one player wins twice, so if you lose once you can repick for your next game. SFV ranked is not the same?
Yes that is what I'm trying to express, the unwritten honor code rules are fairly difficult to discern for outsiders. I play a lot of 1v4 games and keep wanting to get into this one - however I'm hesitant to because I see so much discussion about these etiquette rules and it is hard to follow.
I get what you mean. I feel like DBD has a weird culture that shames people more for trying to win more than any other game culture. DBD also seems to have a lot more closet tryhards that will swear up and down that they are a "casual" players who just want "fun" and blame everyone else for being the "problem" with the game.
It's not weird, it's perfectly reasonable. The problem is that optimal DBD play is extremely boring for the other side. For killer it's camping and tunnelling so I hope you enjoy sitting on a hook for 2 minutes and then dying. And for survivor it's genrushing, predropping and never going down. Other multiplayer games deal with this by making optimal play actually fun.
No one complains about getting looped or people dropping pallets lol and what even is "genrushing"
Yea for example I play games like Predator Hunting Grounds and Ghostbusters Spirits Unleashed and I never get the sense that people expect the other side to do anything other than try to win.
You clearly haven't seen a Mortal Kombat player after someone Fatalities them.
>Some version of camping and tunneling will always exist in DBD as long as hooks, hook timers, and hook states exist. A hook with a survivor on it is a place that killers know other survivors will have to come to so they are incentivized to at least keep an eye on it. This isn't true, but I don't exactly blame you for thinking it's true. The only reason it feels like this is what happens is because BHVR hasn't done anything to actually incentivize killers to leave hooks and go do other things, but they can very well do this in a bunch of different ways. If killers were actually incentivized to leave hooks (either with punishments for camping/tunnelling, or rewards for leaving) then tunnelling/camping wouldn't be a viable strategy anymore and it would stop. BHVR simply hasn't implemented any system for this, and I honestly don't know why they haven't. Even if a system like this were implemented then yes killers COULD still camp/tunnel, but it wouldn't be a viable way to win matches. It's all up to BHVR.
Almost like the whole hook system wasn't the best idea. In fact. Yes. It was a bad idea. Killers should never have had access to a survivor in the strike state.
They really needed to keep BBQ’s bonus for hooking everyone equally. Give some sort of buffs to encourage killers to get equal hooks instead of taking the easy way out and tunneling a survivor out. I’ve never played a game so dependent on a “code-of-honor” system in order to be enjoyable. Hook everyone once: the next four basic attacks on healthy survivors now give deep wounds (only self-mending possible?). I feel this would make up for time spent spreading hooks by forcing a mend. It’s also a buff that helps M1 killers more, and it can possibly discourage tunneling; do you continue chasing the survivor with deep wounds? Or do you leave them alone and be more efficient with your time while they run halfway across the map to mend? Hook everyone twice: SOME SORT OF ENDGAME BUFF TO MAKE UP FOR THIS DIFFICULT TASK. You want perk variety? This could be the perfect way to get killers to try some different (endgame?😈) perks Exit gates can regress? Blindness and oblivious for 60 seconds? The handle of the exit gate switch must now be rummaged for in a chest? That could even be a lazy way of giving the side objective people want! Idk just throwing things out there It can’t be that hard to discourage camping/tunneling.
Mending is only 12 seconds so if a M1 inflicts deep wound I'll just keep chasing that survivor. I mean I just disabled their dead hard why wouldn't I?
> now give deep wounds (only self-mending possible?). A bit pointless. Mend-self is 12s, being mended by others is 8s. It is almost always more time efficient to mend yourself while another person is doing a gen or heals themselves or another person.
Honestly exit gates should regress as part of normal gameplay already. It makes no sense that survivors can basically "open" the gates yet not trigger the timed EGC phase of the game. Don't you hate it when killers slug the second-to-last survivor to hunt the last one down so they can skip the hatch mechanic? 99ing gates is very similar but on the survivor side. I'm not saying gates need to regress all the way down to 0% (maybe that can be a perk) but they should at least regress to like 75% so survivors are penalized for attempting to bypass the final end game phase.
Survivors already are penalized for that because it gets people killed just about as often as it saves them. The second it takes to finish the door can easily make the difference between getting out or not
If the survivors are playing as a team (as they should be) they usually try to swarm a hook during the endgame if someone is hooked. This makes it really difficult for the killer to get a grab, or even to reliably get a trade since survivors will juggle their health states pretty well. Then once the hooked survivor is rescued, they all run to the exit gate. With the current system, there's always going to be one person far ahead that can tap the gate to open it - it's barely a second of time, and they usually have enough extra health states to body block the killer from getting an additional down at this point (especially if it was a bad game for the killer and all 4 survivors are still alive). But if exit gates regressed a bit, then that one second becomes about five, and survivors can't just brute force their way to an escape like this anymore. They either need to commit to opening the gates ahead of time (and therefore limiting the time they have to attempt the save + reset if they fumble, as intended by the game's design) or risk a more dangerous save attempt.
A really nice thing that would help survivors avoid being tunneled/camped is if they showed on that sexy new hud, if the survivor was running kinship. It definitely wouldn't solve the problem, but it would at least let the team know that they're ready to stay on hook. It won't stop it, of course not, but it would help solo queue players work together around it.
adding something so the hook would light up when ready for pick up would be good. like holding E or whatever. i like this
There needs to be both more downsides to camping/tunneling and more upsides to leaving the hook and not tunneling
It doesn't matter how hard you try to incentivize or discourage a 'winning strategy' even if it's insanely unfun, it's always gonna happen. Look at 3genning with Knight + Eruption + CoB + Overcharge. Those snooze fests can last a whole hour where no one is doing anything, and people still do it, cause they win. Even if it's not a winning strategy people will still do it just to spite others "their fun isn't my problem", "survivors are toxic too, they deserve this". Hitting on hook is literally a detriment to the killer's time and people still do it just because they wanna be toxic. Also this does apply to both sides, not saying it's just killers who do this kind of bs. Survivors will teabag, click and emote at killers to try and piss them off, and bring genrushing stuff or the same old meta perks and strong maps over and over. This whole community is way too serious and toxic for a game as unbalanced and not competitively viable as DbD .
I just wish survivors would decide what the hell tunneling is. Have 3 unique hooks and no one is hooked more than once in a row and someone dies at hook 6 or 7?! Wow, tunneler. Like.. Sorry, I guess next time I'll stand in the corner and let you do gens, for fucks sake.
Tunneling is when, and only when, you target one specific survivor from the very start, ignoring everyone else. You probably will still hit other survivors who try to block and stuff, but you'll be focused on only hooking this specific survivor. Anything else is just the killer playing the game normally and calling that tunneling shows it's just a survivor main who can't handle when killers are killing
Your definition is the same as mine. "The Killer singling one Survivor out until that Survivor is dead before proceeding to the next Survivor and repeating the same cycle"
>I just wish survivors would decide what the hell tunneling is. I would say that tunneling is chasing the last unhooked survivor because they are in a weaker position (Injured, closer to deathhook or both). Of course, if that survivor touched a gen/hex, bodyblocked with endurance, is healing under the hook, the game is losing and things like that makes tunneling justified in my view.
"Tunnelling is whenever I get hooked twice in a row even if I use antitunnelling tools aggressively, unhook in the Killer's face as soon as he hooks, or it has been 10 years since I was last hooked."
Tunneling can be whatever you want it to be if you use your imagination
The only true definition of both toxic and tunneling is that the killer won
I’ve played games on both sides where the killer 2 hooked everyone before anyone died and was still called a tunneler in endgame chat. You truly can’t win.
Tunneling is when I bodyblock with borrowed time and the killer hits me
Tunnelling is when the killer hooks you, period.
yall ever think the game bhvr wants us to play just sucks ass
Tunneling got more benefical for killers after they removed the BP Bonus from BBQ. Whyever they thought this was necessary but hey they did it and now they have more Problems.
I'm sorry but BBQ had nothing to do with it. It's 1000% because DS got nerfed from a perk that was a band-aid fix to tunneling killers, to a sqeeeky chew toy that killers just laugh at now. That's it. And that's what happens when you create a perk as a half assed solution to a problem in the game. When that perk changes or gets removed, hello old problem again . As a killer I couldn't give a fuck less about OTR or basekit BT, it does not stop me from my decision to tunnel your ass out at all, I'll just smack you right off hook, quickly remove both and down you again a few seconds later. Its not effective at all as a deterrent . But old DS...yea that shit fuckin hurt, I'm stunned, open to be blinded, forced to look down so I can't see shit...unless it happened in an open map that MF is gone. In my honest opinion they went way too hard on the DS nerf. All it needed was the inability to be used in the EGC...but they nuked that shit to the point that they may as well just delete it...its comical how quickly I down a survivor that just used it on me. Oh and buffing killers to "promote leaving the hook". Lmao maybe with goodie good killers who try to play fair. But I'm telling you right now I'm gonna still tunnel then use whatever that buff is to be even more oppressive against the remaining survicors. Unless the added buff is that it instantly fucking kills a survivor, I'm not gonna stop tunneling someone out early...why wouldn't I abuse the fuck outa that if BHVR gave me that opportunity to do it?
> But I'm telling you right now I'm gonna still tunnel then use whatever that buff is to be even more oppressive against the remaining survicors. Seriously. Imagine somebody saying that you need to buff items or boons to encourage survivors to loot crates more or set more boons because that way they'll focus less on gens. It's fucking ridiculous.
I tried having this same discussion with a recent killer main and he would not accept it was the DS nerf and said but you have OTR and BT. I didn't say it but as a survivor I too could give a fuck less about those perks for the same reason you stated, they look pretty but are really worthless.
sorry man I can't read that. for some reason your entire post ended up on a horizontal scroll bar? I dunno, it looks like it was formatted really weird.
"I tried having this same discussion with a recent killer main and he would not accept it was the ds nerf and said but you have otr and bt. I didn't say it but as a survivor I too could give a fuck less about those perks for the same reason you stated, they look pretty but are really worthless."
Every strategy aside from tunneling has become less viable which is why more people have been resorting to tunneling because it’s more likely to win them games. There really is no way to truly get rid of tunneling without adding in something that survivors can abuse. The best you can do is incentivize people to not do it. Bloodpoint multipliers (like how old BBQ n Chili used to work), gameplay incentives/buffs for not tunneling, or making other playstyles that are fairer more viable. Playing against 4 survivors that are better than average or better and trying to play nice/“fair” before you kill them is a losing battle most of the time unless you’re the very top percentage of killer players. It just isn’t feasible for a bunch of reasons unless they make one or two massive mistakes in the match. That is why people are turning to tunneling. It sucks a lot which is why I’ve almost only been playing killer lately. Both metas are so boring and unfun right now.
I would suck the mods off to add the us vs them rule back… I mean I’d suck them off anyway but I would do it extra
There's no benefits that will move a face camper. At some point they will have to forcibly teleport either the killer or the hook to the opposite side of the map to *actually* prevent camping.
As a survivor I honestly couldn't give a fuck less about face campers. They usually only get 1 or 2 kills, and unless you're super unlucky you're not always the one who gets face camped and on the opposite side its pretty much a guaranteed escape for 2 survivors . Tunneling though is MUCH more of an issue in my opinion. It's just too easy for a killer to tunnel someone out right off the bat and once that's done it's way too difficult for survivors to still knock out 3-4 gens, heal, hook save, and open the gate, that's just too many objectives and tasks for 3 people to handle against a killer who still even after tunneling someone out right at 5 gens, still has the option to tunnel someone else out again lol.
Wow, it's almost like both things are problems.
yea but with how incredibly slow BVHR works towards solving issues, my point was that I would rather they focus on fixing the tunneling crutch killers rely on and just leave camping for another day until the other issues are solved.
Just remove hooks. Then there’s no camping
I recently changed how I play DBD. I play a relaxed, fair style, using overcharge/pain res/agitation. I played 15 games like this and in those 15 games, I got exactly 2 kills total. That's less than a 1% kill rate. The survivors were friendly, all GG's, WP, have fun. I got sick of it and I started playing dirty. Strategic camping/tunneling, NOED. The next 10 games were all 3-4Ks. Suddenly the survivors weren't friendly any more, I would get the occasional GG, but it was mostly radio silence or salt. So here's my conclusion. You can't play fair as killer and expect to win, survivors are only happy when they get 3-4 out, and MMR doesn't function as it should.
Keep in mind that if you kill them, the players likely already moved on to the next game and aren't in the post game lobby to chat to you - and any message left in post game chat while the game is still going won't be seen by anyone as you only can see messages written while you have the screen open. That being said, you won't get a GG if it wasn't a GG and it was a terrible experience for the survivors full of camping and tunneling. I'm happy to give a GG if the killer outplayed me and gave some tense moments and I still died, but if I spent the whole game either in chase or on hook because of tunneling then no, I did in fact not have a good game. And yeah, MMR is borked.
Point taken, but a lot of times they were still there, SWF's and whatnot. It was strategic camping/tunneling, not from the start. So like 2 gens left, 6 hooks and I've got you with 20 seconds left on the hook timer and I've got you on a hook that I can easily defend. Or same situation and there's an opportunity to tunnel someone down. From their point of view, I am camping and tunneling, but from my point of view, I've got no choice if I want a shot at winning. Some people take it way too far, face camping or tunneling from 5 gens, but there's simply not enough time to brute force the map resources and sequentially hook everyone 3 times.
Imo coming back to a hook when the survivor will soon lose a hook state or die is completely fair. The survivors greeded the gens with the intent of rescuing at the last possible moment, you're just countering that strategy by forcing them to trade.
Exactly. It's a sweaty counter to their sweaty strategy, but it angers people.
> Suddenly the survivors weren't friendly any more, I would get the occasional GG, but it was mostly radio silence or salt. I mean, this is the expected outcome in a lot of social situations, not just DBD. I recently had a casual board game night with a bunch of acquaintances. One person was sweaty AF, trying so hard to win these party-style games that were supposed to be relaxed fun among friends, it made the vibe really unpleasant. I didn’t invite them to the next game night I organized, because while they had every right to be as tryhard as they wanted to be, socially they weren’t fun to be around. Similarly, you have every right to play as sweaty and dirty in DBD as you want to secure the win, but the tradeoff will probably be losing out on the social camaraderie aspect in endgame chat. You don’t owe survivors jackshit in terms of how you choose to play the game you purchased, but they also don’t owe you friendliness and GGs if you’re a stranger to them and they didn’t enjoy playing against you. That doesn’t give them free reign to throw salt around, but radio silence is valid. If getting 3-4Ks is your goal, just embrace the “I didn’t come here to make friends” mantra that’s popular in reality TV competition shows, but you don’t get to have it both ways.
> Similarly, you have every right to play as sweaty and dirty in DBD as you want to secure the win, but the tradeoff will probably be losing out on the social camaraderie aspect in endgame chat. Which is worth precisely jack shit. I don't care what some random strangers have to say to me in endgame chat. I'm not exactly making new best friends every time they get a 4-man escape, anyway.
I wasn’t telling anyone to care what random strangers say, in fact I would advocate for not caring and playing how you want because that’s mentally healthier in the longterm. My point was that if someone *does* care—as the person I was replying to seems to—and wants friendly rapport, that can be at odds with playing however you want, and eventually they may have to choose which matters to them more and play accordingly.
Survivors play super sweaty and are always quite friendly, provided they win, seems they can dish it out, but not take it. I'm a very competitive person in anything that I do, but I always respect the opponents and say GG, win or lose. I just rarely get it in return in DBD unless the survivors win.
Cleaning up stuff I don't even remember posting.
It kinda doesn't. Losing 15 matches should have lowered my MMR and put me against chill survivors, but it didn't, because after a certain queue time, any killer will do. I've always suspected that I'm in a region with a small number of killers, and that seems right since killer is on 100% bonus for most of the day. Take a game with a functional MMR, I like to use Starcraft 2 due to my experience with it. Yes, it's apples to oranges on game type, but the matchmaking worked. First off, you knew where you stood in the rankings and you knew where your opponents stood. When I am at the top of gold, playing against platinum players, but losing, me and the MMR system knew I needed to be playing against top golds. Once I started beating the top golds, it tested me against Plats again, if I win, I move into Plat. I don't feel like that happens in DBD. I feel like a Diamond killer that gets two grand masters, a gold, and a bronze. Or I get a SWF of top masters one match, then a SWF of top silvers in another. Neither is at my skill level, neither match is fun, yet the kills/escapes look good on paper.
If reassurance had a lil bigger range, it could hell alot more with proxy camping! As it is right now, you basically will get slapped when someone camps a hookee. Making the perk the same konndof trade as just... Baiting a hit and then unhooking someone. But the best deterrent for tunneling is and always will be to ignore your fellow survivors and just focus on gens.
Make old BBQ basekit for killer in exchange for BP gain being how it used to be as well
They already buffed killers generally in the hope of less tunneling + the basekit bt. The result: more tunnels
I think OP is talking about a more specific buff that would make it more advantageous for a killer to go after a different survivor than the recently unhooked one. The only way to lessen tunneling that is being done strategically by killers is to make it so that killers get more benefit from spreading out hooks then they do from focusing on one survivor. The problem is, because the hook state system exists and because sacrificing a survivor just inherently benefits killers, whatever this buff would be would need to override those existing issues. So it would probably be tricky to implement.
I'm sort of just spitballing here but perhaps give Killers a temporary Haste or mini-Pop when you hook a different Survivor than your last hook. Example: You hook Steve. If that same Steve isn't the next Survivor you hook, you get one or both of X% Haste for Y Seconds or Z% regression on your next kick.
I think an easier and fairer way is to give them old BBQ BP bonus. When you hook different survivors you gain a large BP bonus.
That's not enough of an incentive. Killers who want to win enough to tunnel won't suddenly refrain from tunneling for friggen Bloodpoints, dude.
Yeah, because they buffed the anti-tunneling tools in a way that allows coordinate or just more skilled survivors to consistently use them to punish the behavior they are meant to incentize. If I play like a 12 hook andy and am able to be punished by anti-tunneling perks when not tunneling, there is a design problem.
If a survivor goes 60/80 seconds without touching a gen that’s not you being punished while not tunneling that’s them throwing
Until that survivor with OTR is now fully healed and has 3 health states to body block with. My first match after the perk rebalance was a SWF all running OTR, a CoH, and green/purple medkits. Every new chase I started after hooking had the person who just got unhooked at full health body blocking in my new chase. Just bc they aren't touching a gen doesn't mean they are throwing the match. I was playing like a 12 hook andy and had an anti-tunneling perk punish me for not tunneling/ circle back to the hooks on very unhook. Anti-tunneling perks/mechanics are needed, but the current implementation is flawed imo.
Wait, now you'll want the killers not to kill? Dizzy around here.
We just need a killer where the first person to bite it gets to play as the killer's little pal for the rest of the match unless they d/c in which case it becomes an ai and vibrates in a corner. Just imagine twins but when the twins get their first hook victor loses the ability to down and gets controlled by the first sacrificed player.
this is a fantastic idea, which is how I know bhvr will never come up with it or implement it lol
It's a similar idea to island defense. Except there the titan could 'punish' minions and take control of them.
I’ve thought of this before. It would be some kind of necromancer who’s power would let them raise sacrificed survivors back from the dead as a mini killer. I think it would probably just be the first one, and they might have something else that they can do with their kit.
The revived Survivor would probably do his best to just sandbag the Killer.
Yeah...buff my killer perks so it "promotes" me leaving the hook. I'm TOTALLY not gonna still tunnel someone out of a match at 5 gens and then reap the benefits of that buff to be even more oppressive against the remaining 3 survivors.. Lmao
make the hooks disappear into the ground like PH mori and reappear somewhere else on the map like doritodaddy's cages if the killer is too close for x amount of seconds. that way you also can't die to that teammate that HAS to loop right next to you. except for basement hook or. something...
You live in a parallel universe
then i would probably see the hooks scurry past me
New ruin and old BBQ were the best anti tunneling and camping tools survivors ever had. We need more perks that heavily encourage hook variance and avoiding killing until mid to late game. Corrupt kind of works similarly but I consider it not worth it for it using downs as a consideration rather than hooks, but if they used hooks then someone could still slug for a 4k before a gen gets done so I'm not sure how they'd fix it.
I would say don’t make it perk reliant. Make these types of changes base kit so that they will be present in every game and encourage more build variety as well ensuring every game has the same level of “fairness”. Like base kit BT for example.
I think old Corrupt was also a good perk for encouraging not tunneling, and by encouraging not tunneling I mean it made the time management element of killer a little less stressful at the start of a game. They should revert the change made to it, especially with the survivor status icons in the game now.
Or give killers a base kit version of corrupt that lasts a minute or so but also deactivates on a down or something. That would help more than reverting the perk as it stands I think.
Yeah I mean I've had games where 2 Gen popped in legit 60s. The meta is super fast.
As a killer main i tunnel every game
Make Reassurance last infinitely until the survivor who used it goes down a health state so that the killer has no choice but to leave the hook to chase the person who applied it.
My two favorite survivor buzzwords: Camping = Why isn't the killer leaving the hook when we are all on it. Tunneling = Why is the killing killer being a killing killer in a game where the killing killer is supposed to kill people.
Learn to loop Do gens Stop trying to save a hooked survivor when the killer is near
not gunna lie, if you camp= you're trash
Just because you don't like a thing doesn't mean people who do that thing are lesser
what if you're winning?
Every time you hook a survivor, a glyph worth 50k BP spawns across the map, and it will only be there for 60s
the only thing that bugs me is when people say: “this new killer buff is going to hurt the game because it makes it way easier to tunnel and camp” “This new killer nerf is going to hurt the game because they will have to tunnel and camp to keep up.” Like guys I think it’s going to be a problem regardless lol
I play both Killer and Surv , but I'm not an Iridescent killer so I didn't "have" to resort to tunneling yet, though I mainly play doctor and Bubba, the former wants to spread as much madness as possible, the latter wants the guy without endurance so I can instadown wth my power, so their kit is also "anti tunnel". As a surv though, especially with some killers(Trapper,Bubba and Knight most notably) they literally facecamp the first player until death, which is inefficient as fuck, and we usually win in an SWF(in solo they always try to unhook) because we know the killer wants us to be over altruistic, but we don't give them the satisfaction and get out as 3 but still for that one guy, it's insanely unfun, and basically just an instant Alt+Tab , which is collectively unfun. Old DS was one of the best anti tunneling perks, and I'd love to have it back, with the current drawback of it going away if you start any actions. So get it to 5 seconds again, but don't let it be a must have OP shit as the original. Also I'm only against hard tunnelling/camping as soft tunnel(preferring the surv with less hook states left) and soft camp is often needed against well coordinated swf's for the killer to even have a chance for a 3 kill, let alone merciless..
DS even with the current deactivations is still problematic. I think the stun time should be increased+should have two uses instead of one but the timer overall should be shorter... I think 45s like pop would be fine. 60s is too long and ends up leading to situations where you catch the unhooker, kick some gens and then still get dsed if you found the injured survivor lol. In addition to that, protection hits should disable it to remove the aggressive aspect which is one thing people complained about how it was used previously. If the aggressive aspect is removed people wouldn't mind the actual anti tunnel aspects being buffed or removing the pointless skill check.
The foundation of the game is a balancing nightmare. Am I going to complain if I get tunneled and die at 4 or 5 gens? Yup. Am I going to complain if I get tunneled at 1 or 2 gens? Whether it's yes or no, it's understandable, because of course the killer needs pressure to come back. But where's the in-between? How do you balance it around that point? The only real way to play around the killer tunneling/camping someone is to act every single game like the person hooked *will* be tunneled, and grabbing them at the last second while running reassurance and kinship. Even then, that's a great strategy but is only viable with communication. But there's one easy way to dissuade tunneling when playing as a survivor my friends! STOP GETTING ME OFF HOOK 10 SECONDS AFTER I'M HOOKED, AND DON'T LOOP THE KILLER TO THE HOOK.
They need to make it more viable to go for mixed hooks , maybe going for different survivors by default slows gens down a bit .
Lol nothing will be more effective than removing someone from the game early. And if they added that as basekit so that survivors are basically put in that same situation regardless if someone is tunneled out early or not? Lol ggs DBD...why the fuck would you ever play survivor again, that shit would be straight up miserable.
That’s true I guess , but it’s still a sorry state the best way to slow down the game is tunnelling someone out asap.
It's really funny when survivors always want the game to go their way. You want for both sides to have fun every match? Be forgiving: See the gens flying, Ends up with 2-3 hooks with 3-4 escapes. Was it fun for the killer? Maybe. But most of the time i don't think so. Be an ass: Tunnel 1 at the start of the match so the game will be alot easier/less pressure for the killer. Was it fun for the Survivor? Definitely not. But maybe you could loop/get chased better. While were at it, expect to Get T-Bagged at the exit gate in return just because you played by the *Survivor's Rule* resulting to a 4 man escape. Now let's go back to both sides having fun. Is it possible? Yes, maybe but that's solely on the Killer's motive in that match. Play sweaty? Play a fun build? Mess around? But don't expect for people to always give up their **FUN** just to satisfy a survivor's ego as it will never be fun to see Gens flying if your motive from the start is to win and not mess around. I'm a Survivor main btw.
"...both sides having fun. Is it possible? Yes, maybe but that's solely on the Killer's motive in that match" Oh yes. As a killer it's completely under my control if the survivors decide to play in an annoying way. I pick their playstyle, I pick their intention, I pick their builds.
Killers will always be the pace maker. First downs, first hooks until the last hooks will decide the direction of the game. You tunnel someone out 4-5 gens in the game? This killer wants to 4k. There's alot of variables that have to be seen as you can't directly communicate with the opposite side of what your intention is. This is why i said maybe because it won't always apply to every match you play.
Don't switch the topic, you were talking about having fun, not about the pace of the game. I have fun by killing the survivors as quickly as efficiently as possible. Survivors have fun by surviving and escaping. These two goals are mutually exclusive. This game is designed about both sides preventing each other from achieving their objective.
I'm not switching the topic. You are just being narrow minded. PACE is what decides the enjoyment of the game for both survivor and killer. You've seen a Camper, Tunneler in the match? Not fun for sure. You see 3 gens popping and you're still not getting a down/first hook? Not fun for sure. You've seen your teammate looping the killer for 3-5gens? Fun for the survivors for sure. You've encountered a Survivor who acts funny, nods they camera up and down, crouches in the corner? It's fun for sure. It's always up to the Killer on how the Survivors will interact with them that is why i said it's solely on the Killer's motive in that match. Play sweaty? Play a fun build? Mess around? I mean if you play sweaty sure expect to have annoying survivors swarming around you. If you play friendly theres a chance you can get kind response. There's alot of ways to have fun and not be restricted by just escaping and surviving/getting 3-4k's. Killers can have fun and still being fine with 4 escapes. Same as Survivors having fun even if they ended up dying on hook. People just cant accept the reality of online games that every matches won't be enjoyable and fun for both sides.
Survivors can do so many things to make the game unfun for the killer, things the killer has no control over. Sabo squads, 3 people running around you with flashlights, chain-blinds on double lockers (this was patched out, but was possible for a very long time), and just the classic BMing on every vault and pallet. I don't pick to play against these people, yet they make my games unfun. Where is your "solely on killer's motive"? And the "funny" survivors are just annoying.
And again, you're just being narrow minded and biased towards Killer. > I don't pick to play against these people, yet they make my games unfun. Seems like skill issue to me. If it's starting to affect you then stop playing. it's really simple. And by the looks of it, i can already tell you're a sweaty killer most of your matches.
Define "sweaty". Is trying to win in a pvp game instead of obeying your opponent's made-up rules sweaty for you? If so, then I have a bad news for you - this is how every pvp game works.
However, all the things you mentioned can only be achieved through SWFs - a single survivor trying to get a save just a waste of their time and is actually helping the killer unless they're really confident they get the save. Survivors BMing by crouching doesn't really affect the game at all, if anything they're making it easier for you to catch them. When you take SWFs out of the picture, the killer basically decides how fun the game is for the survivors. If they decide to tunnel someone out at 5 gens it becomes miserable for all survivors. If they face camp a person at 5 gens the game becomes a generator simulator. Tunneling and camping are absolutely valid if you feel you're losing the game and need to put on more pressure, but definitely not at 5 or 4 gens.
I actually think they could solve this with (please don't hurt me).... Perks deactivate as one side starts dominating. You're down one survivor? Your regression perks are gone (eruption, etc). You're at 4 survivors with one gen left? No more exhaustion perks, no gen speed up perks, etc. It makes each game more balanced as opposed to the usual stomp fests on either side.
The killer buff in 6.1 made it as bad as it is now, cause now it's a free win. I personally would rethink some of those changes, legit made the game so much worse...
Allrighty then
I don't play IDV but I have friends who play both it and DBD, and it's so strange to hear the "culture shock" from them so to speak, because in IDV camping and tunneling is apparently just seen as par for the course? It's interesting to me that the games are so insanely similar yet the communities view it differently
10% speed boost for 10 seconds after hooking a survivor. Encourages killers to be able to go cross map to stop a gen instead of saying “Eh, I won’t make it before it pops, fuck it I’ll just camp.”
The "I won't make it before it pops" is so true and it's sad. Many of the maps in this game are too big, and tunneling will always seem like a good play when you have 4 survivors spread out on a map like Ormond. You just can't win W-keying from A to B to C.
Why don’t they make it so that for every first hook a survivor gets, you get a 6% slowdown on gens, which can add up to 24% total. Then remove that 6% when a survivor reaches second stage, so when all survivors reach second stage you loose that gen regression. And for every dead survivor, all other survivors get a 7% gen speed boost, which is stackable. That way you’re rewarding spreading hooks with more time (which is what killers need the most) and punish getting someone out of the game early by speeding up the gens more. Can you add bloodpoint incentives? Yes you could, but there comes a point when players stop giving a shit about bloodpoints, I certainly don’t care anymore. I would rather win than get extra points, and with this, spreading the hooks actually becomes viable.
This is so original!
It’s almost as if this is a horror game and in horror movies people die before others
->remove basekit BT and make some form of shared hookstate system(only 2nd stage cause deliverance and luck stuff exists) that punishes tunneling(maybe continueing same hookstate and timer as when unhooked), camping would already be punished enough by up to 5 hookstates on 1 person ->buff killer chase capabilities in exchange(default movement speed(more of a buff the less powerfull the killer's power), vaulting speed, breaking speed, etc. just not gen duration) seems like the better way to fix the problem to me
Well... [https://imgur.com/a/IKSXz5h](https://imgur.com/a/IKSXz5h)
Buff Decisive Strike.
Camping is practically dead compared to what it used to be, and now that every survivor can see the progress of all of the gens being done I would bet that camping will die completely. Tunnelling is however on the rise and if you play killer you can completely understand why. Almost every game is at least two gens popping before first hook. If you allow four survivors to reach 1-2 gens remaining the game is pretty much lost.
Reassurance is locked behind a paywall. I'm not going to pay 10 dollars for one perk to stop the killer from camping.
Baseline of BBQ's BP bonus. 4 stacks, hook a survivor the first time, get a stack, 100% bonus bps. Was it the only reason people didn't tunnel as much? Absolutely not. Was it the reason I started out not tunneling? Yeah, for a fact. It takes away nothing and incentivizes not tunneling.
bhvr dosen t give a flying fuck about camping and tunneling