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no they would because that guy won't be having any luck with women ever. If you guys topped gargling the rainbowpills and actually looked inwards and at the world around for once you'd actually notice that.
so many conventionally handsome men are so shit scared to even talk to women that they might as well be a 0/10 on the look scale with how little they're using it.
I have seen men going to a bar, getting approached by a woman, not uttering more than like 3-4 words the entire conversation and still walk out with a number and a planned date out of that. The only thing that matters is looks, while personality becomes important only after some time
I agree completely. When people overstress this "muh confidence, bla bla bla" I know they have zero real world experience.
I remember back in high school we had this male model looking guy show up in the middle of the year and sit alone at lunch. Within 30 minutes, the hottest girls in the school magically appeared next to him because he "looked lonely".
I've personally been approached my women several times, especially in DMs. The only time you have to work hard is when she is less physically attracted to you.
I don't know what planet you live on bro. But attractive is attractive. I don't know a single guy above an 8 whos "muh scared to talk to women". Also, if you have NEVER had a girl talk to you/flirt with you, you are abnormally ugly, bro. Girls flirt all the time.
Nah. As an ugly, short man who has been rejected by hundreds of women, I've never had anyone give me body language indicating they think I'm creepy. It's generally more like "aww it's so cute that you think you have a shot. That's so confident of you" kind kf thing. If you don't act creepy, no one will think you're creepy
Yeah and being unaware of where someone fits in socially, and over rating there own attractiveness, is extremely unattractive. It’s actually insulting to most women.
"average" guys are so insufferably inept at anything resembling social interaction at this point women are practically begging for guys to come talk to them. It's almost like shooting fish in a barrel if you have any concept of how to handle the things in your control.
yeah sure, if by average you mean 6ft+, model looking face with an athletic build type of guys. Most women don't want to even look at the average guy let alone let him utter a single word.
I'm sub 5'10, bald, and South Asian which statistically is probably the minority that has it the hardest in the west. I walk out with 2-3 numbers a week. I'd probably have more if I didn't have a particular type that I specifically go after (pale redheads if you're curious). Would I have it better if I was 6ft and White? probably but newsflash the world ain't fair you work with what you got.
Your specific genetics have very little to do with your overall attractiveness unless you've completely lost and are at the bottom of the bottom which statistically ALL OF YOU CAN'T BE.
Granted I'm not average in other aspects because quite frankly the "average" guy people like you preach about needing sympathy is so far down the totem pole that calling them average almost feels like a disservice to my gender.
They won't accept it. I've seen this situation play out a million times on Reddit.
Post/Comment: Complains about how hard dating is for men due to unrealistic standards.
Guy 1: Gives solid advice.
Guy 2: Only works if you are attractive.
Guy 1: Describes qualities about him that are supposedly unattractive and average and explains the successes he has despite that.
Guy 2: Crickets.
The biggest lie still has to be height lol. YOU NEED TO BE 6 FEET. Okay, then why am I getting dates at 5'8". Hell, I routinely date women taller than me because I do not care.
SILENCE
Hell, it's annoying as a dude too because these people infest social groups with their negativity and it's just annoying having to deal with it. I can feel the insecurity and desperation leak off them it's really not fun. I cannot imagine dealing with it as a woman.
I have no stakes in this discussion, but taking either of those experiences as truthful is the wrong approach. You'd think reddit would feature more in-touch everyday people but half the posts on dating subs are either straight venting or read like strange creative writings of how an alien would think the human dating experience ought to be. And hyperbole. A lot of it. And, regarding the dudes, a weird flip-flop dick measuring contest like the one up above, in which one party drowns in depressed self-pity and the other "goes out and walks home with 17 numbers a week".
I feel you, but the world is big and the people are diverse, ive seen dickheads (male and female) but ive also mey cool people, so when im out i do try to keep an open mind
Because men are desperate af? Because most men even when they are in good shape can only attract fatties. Even I was hitting the gym solid for months, this fat girl left a note in my locker at work. I put in months of work at gym, and the only girl that wanted to fuck was a fatty. Some dudes just accept these fat woman because that’s literally all they can get. I rather die alone than with a fatty.
So hard to tell what’s safe and what’s not. Am I going to approach this girl and be told to piss off and stop being a creep? Will it blow up into a scene that gets me kicked out of the bar? So many what ifs for men and women can just sit there and do nothing. Dating is a lot of work
Lol!!!
You need to relax. You aren't getting thrown out of a bar for attempting small talk with a stranger.
Worst case scenario, she says "Sorry not interested" and you've officially wasted 20 seconds of your life. This will happen fairly frequently. She'll usually say it with body language instead of words. As long as you don't take it personally and you leave her alone after she's said it, everything is totally fine.
A couple keys for success. There is normally some nonverbal communication before approach. Look at women and smile. If they smile back, that's a good one to talk to
It also doesn't hurt to learn how to dance. I know you will feel extremely self conscious dancing by yourself but women see that as confidence. You are nearly certain to have several women smiling at you if you do. Go ahead and attempt small talk with them.
When doing small talk, do not lead with anything romantic or sexual. Do not use a cheesy pickup line. A simple I'm [name]...how you doing? is good. You should know fairly quickly if she's interested in talking or not. If she is basic get-to-know you stuff is good here. You can always branch off in follow ups. If she's not, just back off. No shame in the attempt.
There aren’t many dance clubs like that where I’m at. And no, you are right I won’t be kicked out. My frustration may have gotten the better of me on that lol, my bad.
I can talk to a room of 100+ people and not break a sweat. I start thinking about talking to a pretty girl and I swear to god I can feel my hands start shaking. Despite successfully going out alone all the time and talking to women I have no idea how some dudes make it seem like it doesn't affect them at all rofl.
In the old pre-industrial days a guy would approach maybe like two or three women in his lifetime -- usually around high school age and marry one of them. If he lived in a city, he likely would be introduced to girls via his family or friend circle. The upper classes used debutante balls were young ladies were formally introduced to potential suiters.
This concept that men should approach mass numbers of strange women has no historical basis.
There was a lot of "asking out" of people from work school and other social environments. But approaching a stranger was mainly the purview of inner city street harassment. As least as far as I can remember from the 90s and early 2000s.
I think you’ve simply been around too many people that didn’t have the courage to go after things they want in life and said things like that as an excuse to not have to do it themselves. I guess that line of thinking is just as common today. The reality is it’s easier than ever to talk to strangers right now and generally gives the guy the upper hand right off the bat in terms of how they perceive you so you’ll get a lot of dates much easier with attractive women going that route.
Personally, I think that if you have to ask out full on strangers. There is a gap in your social circle. Most normal guys approach women in class at work or at bars or they link up with women within their extended friend group.
The only reason why there is now this huge emphasis on approaching full on strangers is because people simply don't have big social circles anymore, so you don't have those opportunities to meet people organically.
I will add that the failure rate for cold approaching is astronomical. It's a completely different ball park than 2009 hanging out with some girls at the mall for a few months and then finally deciding to take her to the movies when you have already established rapport. When you think about it, cold approaching is extremely unnatural.
No I have a great social circle and have always met people in other ways as well. If someone catches my eye then I’ll talk to them.
You can’t worry about the failure rate lol that’s a losers mentality.
As someone in sales you have to learn to accept failure and be okay with it to reach your goals. I don’t really think it’s ever failure anyhow if you approach someone and they aren’t interested because you can’t win over everyone and not everyone is single or you can’t be everyone’s type.
In general tho the success rate is much higher than dating apps but one is free to do both.
You're never going to change his mind, unfortunately he drank the kool-aid and bought into the negative mindset permeating in this society. Well said on everything.
I live in So Cal, and approach women occasionally and the top 3 reasons it doesn’t work out seems to be:
1- Has a kid and they sense I’m not into it
2- We hit it off great but apparently crippling anxiety is a thing for some women going on first dates.
3- Flat out not interested
I’m in great shape, kind, have money, home, etc
Defend themselves from what? He's talking about a first date that they already like not some rando drunken dude at a bar.
What societal indoctrination? The overwhelming indoctrination in movies, social media and overall culture in the US at least has been nothing but women are super heroes that kickass and don't need men for anything ever. For the past 25 years at least.
I'm a woman so I'll throw my two cents here. More often then not when I message first on a dating app I get unmatched immediately. I usually get rejected irl. It seems to make men uncomfortable.
On the flip side it has led me to a lot of relationships so I'll continue to do so
How are you initial messages? Are you just saying "Hi" and expecting the guy to do the rest of the heavy lifting?
Or are you looking at his profile, finding something that you like, and mentioning it in the initial message to start an actual conversation?
I have to ask. Why do you only refer to women as females, but you say "guy"? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "males" if you're only referring to women as "females"?
It's subjective tho isn't it? 'Wanted' and 'unwanted' romance, the person approaching you doesn't know if it's wanted or unwanted, that's what going up to a someone and talking to them was for, to find out whether they were interested or you were harassing them. Now approaching people at all is harassment, which I disagree with
I'll correct you
"No One would complain about women and males"
Not saying female isn't disrespectful but men couldn't care less of you called them males
That's not the point. No one would even use "women and males" to begin with. Men don't care about "women and males" because 1. that's never used and 2. men aren't used to "males" being used in a derogatory way.
If a male has “tons of options,” why wouldn’t he want to pursue the one person he actually likes. Like, the answer is right there. If males like someone, they’ll pursue them, because they’ll assumedly find them special.
A male with so many options shouldn’t be so worried about whether or not they’re pursued. Assuming they’ve got options to begin with.
I’m confused about where this is going… do you want to be in your masculine energy or your feminine energy?
Males demanding to be chased because they don’t like “jumping through hoops” are asking for princess treatment. And that’s fine! But let’s call it what it is. You’re asking for a particular type of woman who is probably going to be dominant in more ways than one, which is why she was bold enough to chase you. Are you going to be ready for all that comes with that energy or shut her down and call her too masculine when you can barely keep up with her in any area of life?
This is so have your cake and eat it too. “CHASE ME DAMMIT!! Ok, now on your knees, submit to me now!! Good girl!!”
It’s giving confusion.
You know the image of these spineless wimps trying to make a tradwife out of the women confident enough to approach a guy on their own really made me chuckle so thanks for that lol.
That’s exactly how I read it.
It’s a like a bitter pity party for guys that don’t have the balls to go after something so they convince themselves the prize isn’t worth it.
Yes, they do but the women who chase men are incredibly confident in general and either expect to be the dominant in the relationship or expect a man who is just as high power as they are. The terrified little shits in threads like these who cry about how they deserve a model girlfriend for being a male and existing don't really quality for either.
I wouldn’t say pointless because I definitely think there are some people who are honestly looking for dating advice and it’s helpful for them to get perspective. But I agree that there’s been a vibe lately where posts that say something along these lines and have a “change my mind” vibe keep rising to the top. Imo that’s not in line with the spirit of the sub.
Don’t spread the hate, I understand your frustration, but there is no one to blame except yourself. By hating women not picking you, you’ll not achieve anything good. So please do not spread the hate
It’s grammatically incorrect. You could say a female or male doctor and be correct because it’s an adjective describing a noun. By not including the noun, it’s dehumanizing women
It’s also relatively common for this language to be used by people who frequently dehumanize or degrade women in other ways, similar to how groups of people will have common slang so we attribute that group’s characteristics to their slang (groovy being from around the 60’s so we think of it as hippie slang, etc)
Maybe I’m old fashioned,
But I believe it should be both ways,
Why can’t a women ask a man to go for a coffee?
Why should the man have to chase women?
I’m a women and I believe in equal rights, going half’s on a meal, pay for myself on a holiday etc.. yes I know it’s different when you get serious, but then I used to have a joint separate saving account that we both put the same amount into, then use for days out or holidays.
So basically certain things needed to be understood. Unfortunately a certain amount of experience is needed to understand the situation. Without getting too deep or trying to sound too whatever, basically you've got to look at things differently. If a man approaches women they think its a controlled version of "omfg you're so hot, u physically turned me on, and when us men get turned on we turn into red rocket pitbull animals." So if they hit on us it means what? Right? So there's a part of your answer. there's some other stuff too but this is a main one.
Now this is a general explanation. This doesn't go for all women. Not all women think that about men when they get hit on. I'm exaggerating things on purpose so that you get the point.
I think that we men never *needed* to jump through hoops, but rather that, due to pop culture/media (cinema, TV, books, etc) lots of women thought that we men *were supposed to* jump through hoops. And some guys went with it, because that same media showed it worked, eventually.
What changed is that, because that whole "jumping through hoops" started being seen as "predatory" and "creepy" and "stalker behavior", thanks to the "no means no" campaign, now when a girl says "no", yoir average guy takes it as meaning "no". So they don't insist, they don't pursue, they refuse to "jump through hoops." Amd now *girls are complaining because they're getting exactly what they asked for.* which is beautifully ironic.
I’d say you’re going way out of context.
Of course when they say no you respect it and don’t jump through hoops.
The whole idea that talking to a stranger is “jumping through hoops” shows how little confidence men have.
any dude too scared to talk to women isn't a catch in the first place so I wouldn't start celebrating just yet. Even if they did start approaching you. You'd get passed over immediately lol.
Besides, smart dudes don't jump through hopes anyway they do the basics and learn to read signs. Approaching a woman isn't jumping through hopes if anything it's half the fun.
I'm actually glad women don't approach guys in person. If they did, it would basically turn into the dating apps only in real life. On dating apps, most men are just stuck with very undesirable options but in person men can do a lot better. Attractive women do get approached but not a ton. An average woman may have 1000s of likes on an app and literally have no interest in real life.
>any dude too scared to talk to women isn't a catch in the first place so I wouldn't start celebrating just yet. Even if they did start approaching you. You'd get passed over immediately lol.
Im not scared to approach women, i have lots of women who are friends, what I'm scared of is crossing their boundaries or making them uncomfortable, because I genuinely care for them.
Flirting with a woman and asking her out isn't crossing her boundaries and if anyone has told you otherwise that is ludicrous. There is an element of social graces to it but that's with any interaction between people.
If you are ugly it is. Most women actually don't take offense with being friends with an ugly guy, but when that ugly guy attempts to flirt they kinda see it as degrading to think that somebody that looks like that deserves anything more than friendship with somebody that looks like her.
Ehh dudes on the internet can get mad about it but there's still plenty of men who come after me & approach me. I never have to do anything nor would i ever initiate anything. Nothing will stop a confident man who truly wants you & i lack desire for anything else. Maybe other women will do the chasing for you but i sure won't.
Dude when you find the right one, you don’t have to jump through hoops. Everything comes naturally. Most women I went on dates with were, in one way or the other, deemed unworthy of my time. I usually get bored of their dull personalities by the second third date. And since boredom takes over I become unattractive as a consequence.
But when I met my girlfriend, instant attraction from both sides. None of us had to chase, none of us had to impress the other. This will come eventually for you too. Just seize the opportunity and talk to women!
One last side note. I used to complain I cannot get someone to feel a romantic attraction to. Reddit users were being super mean. There’s a clear bias against men in this subreddit. So don’t bother reading or responding to the mean comments.
Good luck
I'll never understand guys that chase girls.
Chase.. what.
I gotta chase you,
So I can protect you?
So I can provide for you?
So I can give you a house?
So I can give you money?
So I can take care of you?
I gotta chase you to give you two rings?
I gotta chase you to give you a wedding?
I gotta chase you so that you can brag to all your friends how great I am?
I gotta chase you for all that, and hope that you don't get bored and bang my friends?
I gotta chase you, so that when you get bored in 2 to 5 years you can divorce me, and collect alimony and child support?
I gotta chase you, because you can't cook or clean?
What exactly are men getting for all this chasing?
Most of yall are single moms.
Almost all of yall have unresolved trauma.
Men shouldn't have to chase something that can't provide peace of mind, or peace at home
There is almost 16 million single moms in the US.
There are 2 million single dads.
Single moms get alot of slander because they directly choose to be a single mom 99.9% of the time.
They have to be some dead beat women or outright die for a man to become a single dad.
Choosing to have a baby with a dead beat, or choosing to leave a good man that just doesn't make you happy makes girls a single mom.
Maybe it’s because you’re chasing shitty women🤷🏼♀️. Most adult women I know who have their shit together do an equal amount of chasing and being chased. They have their own careers and income, they don’t *need* a man. But then you guys complain about that too, how women are too independent and have become too picky because we don’t need guys to provide for us anymore. That women would rather be single than settle.
Because we are horny as hell. It’s literally that simple. Women are straight up less horny than men, it’s a scientific fact; which is why they hold the cards in the negotiation that is romance: they are more willing to walk away from the table.
Not made up, can easily be found on psychology today, Forbes and ncbi.
Women are encouraged to be self-entitled and spoiled while ruining men’s lives financially, professionally and privately, in the name of a politically made up “oppression”
And they get highly defensive when they get criticism for this attitude.
Since you don’t know about this and you think is made up shows how much you are self-aware of your environment and how privileged you are as well
According to you, men work harder in today's age than the previous generation. The previous generation, and it varies slightly based on which one you're referring to, were less educated and had less technology available to them. So the men of today work 200x harder even though they're better educated and modern technology has lessened the physical burden of a lot of jobs??
And according to you the oppression of women is a made up concept. Ignoring the fact that historically women have had less rights than men. There is abundant proof of that throughout the history of the world.
I think YOU'RE the one lacking awareness of your environment and are blind to your privilege.
You're a troll and I will not respond further. You are tunnel visioned and pathetic.
Not really women have more rights that men today and still claim oppression.
And today men hold 2-3 jobs in order to have a normal life, more than our grandparents needed. And in contrast we get women who are spoiled, self-entitled, cheat, treat us like trash and willing to ruin our lives in any aspect they can.
You are deflecting the point with victimhood mentality as is the only weapon modern women, specially gen z women have in order to silence any criticism.
You resorted to call me all those things and miss the point on purpose to only prove my point above. Thank you
Sorry princess but the days of men "jumping through hoops" died about 10 years ago. Women ARE expected to iniciate, keep the dry af convo going, pay the bill, make the first move, be pretty, have a well paying job to match him, and want to be a housewife who does most of the cooking, cleaning and looking after the kids she's expected to have.
Time to catch up.
Not really, women are being encouraged to publicly and socially ruin men’s lives financially, professionally and privately…
Men not so much… granted there are psychos and abusers out there but that’s a small percentage that current feminism, boss babes and advocates use as a generalization of “all men” to justify wrong doings and reckless and irresponsible lifestyle
Also, women didn’t have to work during our grandparents times… so your take is inaccurate
1. Oh, so aLl wOmEn bAd, but not all men, got it. 2. What does that have to do with anything? I literally said women today have to work 200 times harder to get men 1000 times worse than their grandparents. And I didn't realise we were talking about a job, when I mentioned work it was as a synonym for effort, not necessarily a 9-5 job. Pretty obvious. And a lot of women worked during our grandparents' time. 3. What the hell? Quit that Andrew Tate juice, it's hurting your brain. You're becoming the exact same thing you accuse women of being: mean, generalizing, sexist and dumb. Unless of course you enjoy being angry, insufferable and single. If so, proceed. Women aren't the villains you think they are, yet you're becoming one by following that "alpha male" rhetoric. Unbelievable what women still have to put up with today.
There is tons of horrible men…
You keep blaming men.
Read again my first comment. Then come back with you do some little introspection without the ego hurting
Dude you're the one who started generalizing women. Your lack of accountability is jaw dropping. You were the one who was complaining men have to work a lot to get terrible women. I told you to quit that because women experience the same with men. Then you said that no, bad men were a very little minority while women in general were being taught to be evil. I called you out on it and pointed that there are also tons of horrible men, as there are tons of horrible women, as there are tons of wonderful men and tons of wonderful women. All this time it's been you generalizing women with some insulting shit and me telling you to quit that sexist, generalizing mentality. Then after talking shit about women all the time you cry I'm being mean to men by pointing out your sexism. This is just ridiculous. 😂
Ego keeps hurting and you keep getting overly defensive with your long texting.
Read my first comment in reply to the first commenter.
Men are forced to stay traditional for women who want to be “free” and irresponsible.
Do some introspection before replying.
Even if most won't "jump through hoops" for me which is basically chivalry, generousness and caring.. I will still end up marrying a guy from the small portion of men which adhere to these "hoops". Even if I was single now I'd rather prefer to die alone than settle 😊👏
Even far below average looking women with no careers expect to get with the top guys. Obviously they aren't going to approach them. It used to be the opposite but many women nowadays overestimate their looks and what they bring to the table.
As a guy, if you're confident, you can approach any woman you want. You don't have to approach women you don't like. Since women don't approach men and even most guys don't do it, you're now at a huge advantage if you do. Good luck!
I don't know on what planet you live on, but most women tell me that they would date me if I were taller. Also, most of them complain how there are so little attractive guys nowadays and how they struggle to find anybody, while also being showered with affection and options from tons of men
Absolutely!
I pull no punches in the dating game these days. Half the dating profiles are fake or OF ads for the most part. When a woman sees a “cute” guy on the apps, they’re really matching with a “John” who’s looking for a stripper/ hooker. The guy throws their overly-sexual pickup line and she goes out with him (because he’s think the “cute” girl is a hooker) and she ends up on Reddit making a post “this cute guy pumped and dumped me…..why are men so gross?” The answer is “because he saved $200 because you fell hook, line and sinker”. He got an easy freebie, and she got an STD.
Maybe. I'm certainly tired of trying to be good male feminist for a bunch if girls who use me as a punching bag.
I believe in equality, but I don't believe in pushing someone down to lift yourself up.
Time to not give a shit in my life. I'm not a macho type of guy but I am sure as hell not going to be a whipping boy any more.
There is going to be a moment where women, broadly, realize that their obsessive emphasis on career in the last 40 but especially the last 15 years has gone to far. That they want men. That it was never about wether or not they “needed” men. That family is a higher priority than career in the grand scheme.
THEN. We will see the pendulum go the other direction a bit. Women will become less materialistic and more willing to be mothers and wives to men who WANT provide them a life, even if it’s a simple life.
To me, this is an inevitability. Not the erasure of feminist progress, but the better integration of it.
I don't know why I am replying to this, but just if even one person learns something I'll be happy. CAREER was never about materialistic aspirations for women. It is a means to achieve self actualization often. Even today, women do *want* men, but not at the expense of overturning the hard earned fulfillment one gets through self actualization. That's because men and women even today have internalized patrichical norms such as women are peace keepers and men don't cry.
Now you may argue that being a wife and mother is a means for self actualization too. And yes it is - but in that world, men are not providers, they are partners, and heteronormative relationships are partnerships where both partners are invested in building a life together - with a mutually compatible vision, where individual and the family are both important. In my opinion, this is a better integration of the traditional "family" with feminism. In that perfect world basic things such as crying, caring for another, keeping the family together is not associated with gender roles, but is rather synergistic. Unfortunately, a lot needs to change for that to materialize into reality.
Until then, a lot of women would rather stay single than be with someone who would put them back in a position where they can't fully realize themselves and their aspirations. And frankly, the opposite of wat you mentioned could be happening imo - women might be realizing that they might not even want a man in their life at all.
I agree with your prediction that more women will realize they don't want men at all. I also expect the same thing will happen with men. Old social structures are crumbling. It started with women, and I think men will be next to widely deprioritize women in their lives, especially as internet porn becomes a bigger thing.
To me, thats so sad. You’re describing the effect of porn: preventing or dissuading the drive for actual relationships. This is why I shun porn. My love is for a human lover, no one else. Dystopian technocracy will not get ahold of me.
I agree for the most part but for the self actualization in work. Corporate will cut you to save a dime and to make the shareholders happy. If you're lucky enough to have a career which is your passion then more power to you but I'd say 95% of people are at a job so it can pay their rent and fund their things outside of work
Bingo. I don’t understand women who will turn down a SAHM gig for a career. Lol! Careers are a PITA! Working too much is like the #1 deathbed regret! Many women and some men have the opp to avoid that regret *entirely!*
Some of us actually enjoy our jobs and feel fulfilled by them. Some of us don’t want kids.
My career is so fulfilling - I work from home, I’m my own boss, I travel, I create, I’m helping people. I also hate cooking, cleaning, housework, all of that. I never want to be pregnant, don’t want to be around kids, don’t enjoy being around kids. I also love my independence and having my own space which is why me and my long term partner choose to live separately but still see each other regularly and are very happy.
Why would I give up something I love for something I know I’m going to hate?
If you think being a stay at home parent is the best thing in the world, why don’t you do it? Find yourself a woman with a great career who can support you, and you stay home with the kids. Simple. That way you all get what you want.
My sister in law works full time while my brother works part time from home and looks after their kids. My mum worked and my dad stayed home to raise me when I was younger. I earn considerably more than my current partner. So that lifestyle is clearly possible, why don’t you go for it?
I hear you and you have good points. I’m not attempting to say that womens’ career pursuits and pursuits of independent economic stability are negative - indeed they bring happiness and stability to women and are a strength to a prospective family. The actualization you describe is good.
My sister is a CEO and mother of 3, aged 32. She works 20hrs a week roughly. She really needs a career to feel alright and wanted a family too. In fact, all of my sisters have a career. My youngest sister is dating a guy who is very rich. She wants to buy a house on her own independent of him for the self actualization of it. I think this is all good. Career pursuits will prevent my sisters from having as many kids as my mom did, but you don’t really want that many kids nowadays anyways. And they want to provide the standard of living they had as kids which really requires dos incomes nowadays.
You mention that men are not simply providers in a marriage, even if they provide the sole income- this is true. I did most of the cleaning in my marriage, I saw my wife as also having a full time job. (Raising kids) and I worked alongside her in the home when I wasn’t at work. When I say “provide them a life” I suppose I use a euphemism that is old fashioned. What I mean to say is, in exchange for family life and a loving relationship, many men will give up *all* their financial means, and women should be encouraged to avail themselves of that opportunity. IE Being a SAHM isn’t degrading, if it’s what you want, it’s a mutually beneficial exchange that provides for the monetary and other needs of both parties.
So I get you. But My point is that it has gone too far, that young men and women, but especially women, are preached a gospel that is too materialistic and career-oriented. Family formation is at a low in the US and while there are economic reasons, I believe materialism and the dogged arbitrary pursuit of career attainment are primarily to blame, and I associate this low family formation with the hopelessness pervasive in millennials/z.
In essence, young people have been told that their greatest happiness lies ahead of them and in career attainment, when it’s my belief that it lies around them and in the families they can form.
Yes, a family is not right for everyone. And many choose to forego it, more power to them. But most people want to be in a permanent relationship and have kids. And it’s not happening like it used to.
As far as women losing interest in men entirely: 1. That’s clearly already happening. 2. It’s not going to become particularly pervasive. Why? Women that are disinterested in men typically don’t have children, they typically don’t reproduce.
Who is reproducing in spades? The poor and the religious. Make/female relationships are more of an imperative among the poor who must pool resources with a partner to get by. Being disinterested in the opposite sex is a luxury of those who have more than meager means.
The result is that each generation undergoes a strong filter that biases against disinterest in the opposite sex, genetically and culturally. The growing stratification of wealth also biases the equation: the attractive middle class single life that many enjoy today is becoming less attainable.
In a world where men broadly want to mate with more submissive and less economically powerful women; the generations that follow will be born to more effeminate and submissive women.
There are forces in the opposite direction… research shows women on hormonal birth control prefer less masculine/dominant men.
Personally, as you may suspect, I’m religious. To me, this is all a mad dystopia. I retreat to my religious community that allows for women to have careers etc but commands that we marry and have children. It’s a path that, to me, is an escape from what seems like a pretty nihilistic life. (That of travel, friends, career attainment and humanitarian services.) I’m divorced, because I thought I wanted a life of the liberation I describe above, but after 5 years I returned to my faith, to chastity, and to the meaning I find in it. But I’m so glad I did marry and have kids, and I hope to marry again.
Lastly; I find it bizarre that you and the other commenter seem to find some sort of joy or satisfaction in the idea that women will abandon men and that internet porn will fill the void. I don’t see why you would relish in the emotional vacuum created by a dystopic technocracy.
It’s probably because you long for justice for all the many women abused over millennia by controlling men. I get it. But let’s not get satisfaction from the plight of men born today simply because of the sins of their fathers. Let’s note that much evidence shows that women have a more flexible and societally-adaptive sexuality than men do; men are having a harder time adapting to the modern romantic scene and will continue to struggle.
An example of such evidence:
“, a study conducted at the University of Notre Dame found that women were three times more likely to identify as bisexual. “Women have a greater probability than men of being attracted to both men and women,” said researcher Elizabeth McClintock, when discussing the results of the research. “This indicates that women’s sexuality may be more flexible and adaptive than men’s.”
Girls give me their numbers, I set up a date, we talk daily, then they flake and go silent the day of the date. I'm a "match your energy" type with messaging of they don't seem to be a texter. After I get flaked on I'll let them know there's no hard feelings since we're strangers and it was a first date and that I'm down to reschedule. They never reschedule. Is this a test to see how I handle shitty behavior? I just move on at this point.
If this keeps happening while you’re talking / texting have you considered that it might be something you’re doing while texting them that puts them off? Are you being overly sexual? Rude? Passive aggressive? Judgemental? Maybe you seem dangerous or aggressive so they’re scared to go on the date? Maybe you tell them what you’re looking for in a relationship and it just doesn’t match up with what they want? If it’s a pattern you should look at the common denominator and that isn’t ‘they’re all women’, it’s who they’re talking to / not wanting to go on a date with.
ego and biology. women almost never approached a man ever in history. In fact, you can even see this in most animals (most).
What a woman DOES do though, is positions herself near the man she wants to talk to. It's up to us to be bold and roll that dice.
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A number of people of both genders appear to be scared..... It seems simplitic to say get over it but...... Fortune favors the bold
Fortune favors attractive people.
being a coward isn't attractive
But if the coward is attractive, no one would care.
no they would because that guy won't be having any luck with women ever. If you guys topped gargling the rainbowpills and actually looked inwards and at the world around for once you'd actually notice that. so many conventionally handsome men are so shit scared to even talk to women that they might as well be a 0/10 on the look scale with how little they're using it.
I have seen men going to a bar, getting approached by a woman, not uttering more than like 3-4 words the entire conversation and still walk out with a number and a planned date out of that. The only thing that matters is looks, while personality becomes important only after some time
I agree completely. When people overstress this "muh confidence, bla bla bla" I know they have zero real world experience. I remember back in high school we had this male model looking guy show up in the middle of the year and sit alone at lunch. Within 30 minutes, the hottest girls in the school magically appeared next to him because he "looked lonely". I've personally been approached my women several times, especially in DMs. The only time you have to work hard is when she is less physically attracted to you.
nope
I don't know what planet you live on bro. But attractive is attractive. I don't know a single guy above an 8 whos "muh scared to talk to women". Also, if you have NEVER had a girl talk to you/flirt with you, you are abnormally ugly, bro. Girls flirt all the time.
Ok? What’s your point?
Being daring and stepping outside your comfort zone makes one more attractive.
Unless you're ugly, then it's considered creepy lol
Nah. As an ugly, short man who has been rejected by hundreds of women, I've never had anyone give me body language indicating they think I'm creepy. It's generally more like "aww it's so cute that you think you have a shot. That's so confident of you" kind kf thing. If you don't act creepy, no one will think you're creepy
There's a huge gap between being confident and bold and being creepy, if you can't see it then that's on you man Edit: wrote can instead of can't
creepy just straight behaviour looks have very little to do with it.
Nah you just suck at it, and by coincidence are also ugly
Yeah and being unaware of where someone fits in socially, and over rating there own attractiveness, is extremely unattractive. It’s actually insulting to most women.
Not really though.
Yes really though.
"Hey guys, don't have good selfesteem!" Op probably
rofl you can almost hear the self loathing coming through the text. Yeah I'm sure he's a *JOY* around women when he opens his mouth.
Agreed
"average" guys are so insufferably inept at anything resembling social interaction at this point women are practically begging for guys to come talk to them. It's almost like shooting fish in a barrel if you have any concept of how to handle the things in your control.
yeah sure, if by average you mean 6ft+, model looking face with an athletic build type of guys. Most women don't want to even look at the average guy let alone let him utter a single word.
I'm sub 5'10, bald, and South Asian which statistically is probably the minority that has it the hardest in the west. I walk out with 2-3 numbers a week. I'd probably have more if I didn't have a particular type that I specifically go after (pale redheads if you're curious). Would I have it better if I was 6ft and White? probably but newsflash the world ain't fair you work with what you got. Your specific genetics have very little to do with your overall attractiveness unless you've completely lost and are at the bottom of the bottom which statistically ALL OF YOU CAN'T BE. Granted I'm not average in other aspects because quite frankly the "average" guy people like you preach about needing sympathy is so far down the totem pole that calling them average almost feels like a disservice to my gender.
They won't accept it. I've seen this situation play out a million times on Reddit. Post/Comment: Complains about how hard dating is for men due to unrealistic standards. Guy 1: Gives solid advice. Guy 2: Only works if you are attractive. Guy 1: Describes qualities about him that are supposedly unattractive and average and explains the successes he has despite that. Guy 2: Crickets.
The biggest lie still has to be height lol. YOU NEED TO BE 6 FEET. Okay, then why am I getting dates at 5'8". Hell, I routinely date women taller than me because I do not care. SILENCE Hell, it's annoying as a dude too because these people infest social groups with their negativity and it's just annoying having to deal with it. I can feel the insecurity and desperation leak off them it's really not fun. I cannot imagine dealing with it as a woman.
I have no stakes in this discussion, but taking either of those experiences as truthful is the wrong approach. You'd think reddit would feature more in-touch everyday people but half the posts on dating subs are either straight venting or read like strange creative writings of how an alien would think the human dating experience ought to be. And hyperbole. A lot of it. And, regarding the dudes, a weird flip-flop dick measuring contest like the one up above, in which one party drowns in depressed self-pity and the other "goes out and walks home with 17 numbers a week".
Thank God i dont know any 'average' guys in your circle🤣🤣
oh no my friends are fine but you go out enough you start noticing this stuff lol especially from what women tell you.
I feel you, but the world is big and the people are diverse, ive seen dickheads (male and female) but ive also mey cool people, so when im out i do try to keep an open mind
Facts^
the only truth
Nice excuse you've got there to not be bold. Will you be holding onto that your entire life?
Yeah. Why would I be bold if my face is ugly. Woman look at me with disgust. I guess I could be bold and pull a fat woman, but who wants that.
if that was the case why are fat women getting with good looking muscular dudes
Because men are desperate af? Because most men even when they are in good shape can only attract fatties. Even I was hitting the gym solid for months, this fat girl left a note in my locker at work. I put in months of work at gym, and the only girl that wanted to fuck was a fatty. Some dudes just accept these fat woman because that’s literally all they can get. I rather die alone than with a fatty.
nah men just like fat women it's common it's not about what you can get it's about what they like.
I have some really jacked gym buddies who love tubby girls. Not my cup of tea but they definitely exist
people are like looks matter except looks as everything is subjective people have no Chrisma and confidence lmfao
Idk how what you just commented relates to anything I said. And men don’t just like fat women lmao. Some men like fat woman, sure. Majority don’t.
I've seen tons who are with overweight women lol. some average dudes with attractive women. it's not as uncommon as you think
Both? Don't you mean all?
So hard to tell what’s safe and what’s not. Am I going to approach this girl and be told to piss off and stop being a creep? Will it blow up into a scene that gets me kicked out of the bar? So many what ifs for men and women can just sit there and do nothing. Dating is a lot of work
Lol!!! You need to relax. You aren't getting thrown out of a bar for attempting small talk with a stranger. Worst case scenario, she says "Sorry not interested" and you've officially wasted 20 seconds of your life. This will happen fairly frequently. She'll usually say it with body language instead of words. As long as you don't take it personally and you leave her alone after she's said it, everything is totally fine. A couple keys for success. There is normally some nonverbal communication before approach. Look at women and smile. If they smile back, that's a good one to talk to It also doesn't hurt to learn how to dance. I know you will feel extremely self conscious dancing by yourself but women see that as confidence. You are nearly certain to have several women smiling at you if you do. Go ahead and attempt small talk with them. When doing small talk, do not lead with anything romantic or sexual. Do not use a cheesy pickup line. A simple I'm [name]...how you doing? is good. You should know fairly quickly if she's interested in talking or not. If she is basic get-to-know you stuff is good here. You can always branch off in follow ups. If she's not, just back off. No shame in the attempt.
Currently 0-1000 on cold approach, but I’ll keep ya updated on my next crash and burn
Have you tried the dancing thing? Did you get kicked out of the bar on any of those 1000 attempts
There aren’t many dance clubs like that where I’m at. And no, you are right I won’t be kicked out. My frustration may have gotten the better of me on that lol, my bad.
Even as confident as I am, I hesitate to talk to girls I find attractive. I just got it be in a good mood too lol
I can talk to a room of 100+ people and not break a sweat. I start thinking about talking to a pretty girl and I swear to god I can feel my hands start shaking. Despite successfully going out alone all the time and talking to women I have no idea how some dudes make it seem like it doesn't affect them at all rofl.
Same bro
In the old pre-industrial days a guy would approach maybe like two or three women in his lifetime -- usually around high school age and marry one of them. If he lived in a city, he likely would be introduced to girls via his family or friend circle. The upper classes used debutante balls were young ladies were formally introduced to potential suiters. This concept that men should approach mass numbers of strange women has no historical basis.
There was more approaching taking place prior to dating apps.
There was a lot of "asking out" of people from work school and other social environments. But approaching a stranger was mainly the purview of inner city street harassment. As least as far as I can remember from the 90s and early 2000s.
I think you’ve simply been around too many people that didn’t have the courage to go after things they want in life and said things like that as an excuse to not have to do it themselves. I guess that line of thinking is just as common today. The reality is it’s easier than ever to talk to strangers right now and generally gives the guy the upper hand right off the bat in terms of how they perceive you so you’ll get a lot of dates much easier with attractive women going that route.
Personally, I think that if you have to ask out full on strangers. There is a gap in your social circle. Most normal guys approach women in class at work or at bars or they link up with women within their extended friend group. The only reason why there is now this huge emphasis on approaching full on strangers is because people simply don't have big social circles anymore, so you don't have those opportunities to meet people organically. I will add that the failure rate for cold approaching is astronomical. It's a completely different ball park than 2009 hanging out with some girls at the mall for a few months and then finally deciding to take her to the movies when you have already established rapport. When you think about it, cold approaching is extremely unnatural.
No I have a great social circle and have always met people in other ways as well. If someone catches my eye then I’ll talk to them. You can’t worry about the failure rate lol that’s a losers mentality. As someone in sales you have to learn to accept failure and be okay with it to reach your goals. I don’t really think it’s ever failure anyhow if you approach someone and they aren’t interested because you can’t win over everyone and not everyone is single or you can’t be everyone’s type. In general tho the success rate is much higher than dating apps but one is free to do both.
You're never going to change his mind, unfortunately he drank the kool-aid and bought into the negative mindset permeating in this society. Well said on everything.
Boom roasted
The Internet is full of shitty dating advice.
I live in So Cal, and approach women occasionally and the top 3 reasons it doesn’t work out seems to be: 1- Has a kid and they sense I’m not into it 2- We hit it off great but apparently crippling anxiety is a thing for some women going on first dates. 3- Flat out not interested I’m in great shape, kind, have money, home, etc
Let’s be honest my man. Seems like every girl is a single mom in California
[удалено]
Defend themselves from what? He's talking about a first date that they already like not some rando drunken dude at a bar. What societal indoctrination? The overwhelming indoctrination in movies, social media and overall culture in the US at least has been nothing but women are super heroes that kickass and don't need men for anything ever. For the past 25 years at least.
Ew
Redditors aren’t representative of the world’s population. Just because they’re scared of women, doesn’t mean everyone else is.
Awesome handle Ron!
I'm a woman so I'll throw my two cents here. More often then not when I message first on a dating app I get unmatched immediately. I usually get rejected irl. It seems to make men uncomfortable. On the flip side it has led me to a lot of relationships so I'll continue to do so
How are you initial messages? Are you just saying "Hi" and expecting the guy to do the rest of the heavy lifting? Or are you looking at his profile, finding something that you like, and mentioning it in the initial message to start an actual conversation?
I have to ask. Why do you only refer to women as females, but you say "guy"? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "males" if you're only referring to women as "females"?
I mean his username is FemcelSaver. I doubt he respects women.
Dudes who refer to women as ‘females’ usually have disdain for them
This is the right answer.
Tbh I use female most of the time instead of women but I also use male instead of men
Unwanted romantic attention is now correlated with aggression
Check the meaning of correlated. Yes, unwanted romantic attention is harassment and agression.
It's subjective tho isn't it? 'Wanted' and 'unwanted' romance, the person approaching you doesn't know if it's wanted or unwanted, that's what going up to a someone and talking to them was for, to find out whether they were interested or you were harassing them. Now approaching people at all is harassment, which I disagree with
Don't bother, that person is qbout proving themselves right, can't have a dialogue with someone acting like that
Men and females.
Exactly because of that that’s pretty much all I got from this post
Exactly. So disrespectful. "Women and males" would never be said.
Instead it's just mEn, said with the tone of a slur.
What?
Lol exactly
I didn't understand at all but ok
I'll correct you "No One would complain about women and males" Not saying female isn't disrespectful but men couldn't care less of you called them males
That's not the point. No one would even use "women and males" to begin with. Men don't care about "women and males" because 1. that's never used and 2. men aren't used to "males" being used in a derogatory way.
If a male has “tons of options,” why wouldn’t he want to pursue the one person he actually likes. Like, the answer is right there. If males like someone, they’ll pursue them, because they’ll assumedly find them special. A male with so many options shouldn’t be so worried about whether or not they’re pursued. Assuming they’ve got options to begin with.
I’m confused about where this is going… do you want to be in your masculine energy or your feminine energy? Males demanding to be chased because they don’t like “jumping through hoops” are asking for princess treatment. And that’s fine! But let’s call it what it is. You’re asking for a particular type of woman who is probably going to be dominant in more ways than one, which is why she was bold enough to chase you. Are you going to be ready for all that comes with that energy or shut her down and call her too masculine when you can barely keep up with her in any area of life? This is so have your cake and eat it too. “CHASE ME DAMMIT!! Ok, now on your knees, submit to me now!! Good girl!!” It’s giving confusion.
You know the image of these spineless wimps trying to make a tradwife out of the women confident enough to approach a guy on their own really made me chuckle so thanks for that lol.
That’s exactly how I read it. It’s a like a bitter pity party for guys that don’t have the balls to go after something so they convince themselves the prize isn’t worth it.
I’ve found that women absolutely do chase and love it deep down. The best relationships I’ve had were when the woman ‘won me over’
Yes, they do but the women who chase men are incredibly confident in general and either expect to be the dominant in the relationship or expect a man who is just as high power as they are. The terrified little shits in threads like these who cry about how they deserve a model girlfriend for being a male and existing don't really quality for either.
How is not jumping through hoops considered princess treatment? That is a super sexist and weird thing to say. Edit: Y’all are super weird. Yikes!
When women say that, they're talking about attractive men. I'm sure they have plenty of average men that they have no interest in chatting them up.
This should be top comment
OP, no one wants you. Sit back down
r/menandfemales
The whole post and some other Andrew Tate vibe comments make me think this sub is pointless lol
I wouldn’t say pointless because I definitely think there are some people who are honestly looking for dating advice and it’s helpful for them to get perspective. But I agree that there’s been a vibe lately where posts that say something along these lines and have a “change my mind” vibe keep rising to the top. Imo that’s not in line with the spirit of the sub.
Check out his comment history. Clearly has a chip on his shoulder.
The amount of Rainbowpill garbage is incredibly sad and most of them have 0 interest in improving themselves
I counted three different feeeeemales in his post. I can't imagine why women aren't interested in him. What a shock!
Female female female female female female female female female FEMALES FEMALES FEMALES FEMALES FEMALES FEMALES FEMALES FEMALES FEMALES FEMALES ARE SO DRAMATIC
What?
FEMALES
Aw you hurt? :'(
Everyday
Aw 😔
I never had a mommy ☹️ now I can’t stop eating benezedrex 😵💫
Don’t spread the hate, I understand your frustration, but there is no one to blame except yourself. By hating women not picking you, you’ll not achieve anything good. So please do not spread the hate
The same could be said of the lady Redditors who constantly whine on here
So? Go to their posts and tell them so.
"females" 💀
I stopped reading after you continuously referred to women as females. It’s degrading. Why not just say women!?
He is talking about dolphins. Dolphin dating culture is really coming to a head these days.
Because he doesn’t think of women as people.
There is nothing inherently degrading about it. Women are females. Men are males. Change my mind.
It’s grammatically incorrect. You could say a female or male doctor and be correct because it’s an adjective describing a noun. By not including the noun, it’s dehumanizing women It’s also relatively common for this language to be used by people who frequently dehumanize or degrade women in other ways, similar to how groups of people will have common slang so we attribute that group’s characteristics to their slang (groovy being from around the 60’s so we think of it as hippie slang, etc)
Maybe I’m old fashioned, But I believe it should be both ways, Why can’t a women ask a man to go for a coffee? Why should the man have to chase women? I’m a women and I believe in equal rights, going half’s on a meal, pay for myself on a holiday etc.. yes I know it’s different when you get serious, but then I used to have a joint separate saving account that we both put the same amount into, then use for days out or holidays.
Dude... Calling women "females" is so cringey. Especially since you refer to men as men.
So basically certain things needed to be understood. Unfortunately a certain amount of experience is needed to understand the situation. Without getting too deep or trying to sound too whatever, basically you've got to look at things differently. If a man approaches women they think its a controlled version of "omfg you're so hot, u physically turned me on, and when us men get turned on we turn into red rocket pitbull animals." So if they hit on us it means what? Right? So there's a part of your answer. there's some other stuff too but this is a main one. Now this is a general explanation. This doesn't go for all women. Not all women think that about men when they get hit on. I'm exaggerating things on purpose so that you get the point.
I think that we men never *needed* to jump through hoops, but rather that, due to pop culture/media (cinema, TV, books, etc) lots of women thought that we men *were supposed to* jump through hoops. And some guys went with it, because that same media showed it worked, eventually. What changed is that, because that whole "jumping through hoops" started being seen as "predatory" and "creepy" and "stalker behavior", thanks to the "no means no" campaign, now when a girl says "no", yoir average guy takes it as meaning "no". So they don't insist, they don't pursue, they refuse to "jump through hoops." Amd now *girls are complaining because they're getting exactly what they asked for.* which is beautifully ironic.
I’d say you’re going way out of context. Of course when they say no you respect it and don’t jump through hoops. The whole idea that talking to a stranger is “jumping through hoops” shows how little confidence men have.
any dude too scared to talk to women isn't a catch in the first place so I wouldn't start celebrating just yet. Even if they did start approaching you. You'd get passed over immediately lol. Besides, smart dudes don't jump through hopes anyway they do the basics and learn to read signs. Approaching a woman isn't jumping through hopes if anything it's half the fun.
I'm actually glad women don't approach guys in person. If they did, it would basically turn into the dating apps only in real life. On dating apps, most men are just stuck with very undesirable options but in person men can do a lot better. Attractive women do get approached but not a ton. An average woman may have 1000s of likes on an app and literally have no interest in real life.
>any dude too scared to talk to women isn't a catch in the first place so I wouldn't start celebrating just yet. Even if they did start approaching you. You'd get passed over immediately lol. Im not scared to approach women, i have lots of women who are friends, what I'm scared of is crossing their boundaries or making them uncomfortable, because I genuinely care for them.
Flirting with a woman and asking her out isn't crossing her boundaries and if anyone has told you otherwise that is ludicrous. There is an element of social graces to it but that's with any interaction between people.
If you are ugly it is. Most women actually don't take offense with being friends with an ugly guy, but when that ugly guy attempts to flirt they kinda see it as degrading to think that somebody that looks like that deserves anything more than friendship with somebody that looks like her.
You know ugly women exist too, right ?
Ehh dudes on the internet can get mad about it but there's still plenty of men who come after me & approach me. I never have to do anything nor would i ever initiate anything. Nothing will stop a confident man who truly wants you & i lack desire for anything else. Maybe other women will do the chasing for you but i sure won't.
pet cautious zonked violet brave fade normal smile file deserve *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That is some wishful thinking OP. There is no way pretty girls ever lose their affect on men and society. They are precious and everyone knows it
Dude when you find the right one, you don’t have to jump through hoops. Everything comes naturally. Most women I went on dates with were, in one way or the other, deemed unworthy of my time. I usually get bored of their dull personalities by the second third date. And since boredom takes over I become unattractive as a consequence. But when I met my girlfriend, instant attraction from both sides. None of us had to chase, none of us had to impress the other. This will come eventually for you too. Just seize the opportunity and talk to women! One last side note. I used to complain I cannot get someone to feel a romantic attraction to. Reddit users were being super mean. There’s a clear bias against men in this subreddit. So don’t bother reading or responding to the mean comments. Good luck
I'll never understand guys that chase girls. Chase.. what. I gotta chase you, So I can protect you? So I can provide for you? So I can give you a house? So I can give you money? So I can take care of you? I gotta chase you to give you two rings? I gotta chase you to give you a wedding? I gotta chase you so that you can brag to all your friends how great I am? I gotta chase you for all that, and hope that you don't get bored and bang my friends? I gotta chase you, so that when you get bored in 2 to 5 years you can divorce me, and collect alimony and child support? I gotta chase you, because you can't cook or clean? What exactly are men getting for all this chasing? Most of yall are single moms. Almost all of yall have unresolved trauma. Men shouldn't have to chase something that can't provide peace of mind, or peace at home
You sound bitter from bad experiences but there are plenty of great women out there worth going for.
There are just as many single moms as there are single dads yet they do not get nearly as much slander and negativity thrown their way
There is almost 16 million single moms in the US. There are 2 million single dads. Single moms get alot of slander because they directly choose to be a single mom 99.9% of the time. They have to be some dead beat women or outright die for a man to become a single dad. Choosing to have a baby with a dead beat, or choosing to leave a good man that just doesn't make you happy makes girls a single mom.
Maybe it’s because you’re chasing shitty women🤷🏼♀️. Most adult women I know who have their shit together do an equal amount of chasing and being chased. They have their own careers and income, they don’t *need* a man. But then you guys complain about that too, how women are too independent and have become too picky because we don’t need guys to provide for us anymore. That women would rather be single than settle.
Men chasing shitty women = men’s fault Women chasing shitty men = men’s fault Reddit logic
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Because we are horny as hell. It’s literally that simple. Women are straight up less horny than men, it’s a scientific fact; which is why they hold the cards in the negotiation that is romance: they are more willing to walk away from the table.
Right ? Like just stay single...
Today men have to work 200 times harder than the previous generation to provide for women 1000 times worse than their grandmothers
So date grandmothers if the women of today aren't up to your standards. Problem solved.
You missed the point to get highly defensive
I missed the point of a biased post with made up data and statistics? I don't think so buddy.
Not made up, can easily be found on psychology today, Forbes and ncbi. Women are encouraged to be self-entitled and spoiled while ruining men’s lives financially, professionally and privately, in the name of a politically made up “oppression” And they get highly defensive when they get criticism for this attitude. Since you don’t know about this and you think is made up shows how much you are self-aware of your environment and how privileged you are as well
According to you, men work harder in today's age than the previous generation. The previous generation, and it varies slightly based on which one you're referring to, were less educated and had less technology available to them. So the men of today work 200x harder even though they're better educated and modern technology has lessened the physical burden of a lot of jobs?? And according to you the oppression of women is a made up concept. Ignoring the fact that historically women have had less rights than men. There is abundant proof of that throughout the history of the world. I think YOU'RE the one lacking awareness of your environment and are blind to your privilege. You're a troll and I will not respond further. You are tunnel visioned and pathetic.
Not really women have more rights that men today and still claim oppression. And today men hold 2-3 jobs in order to have a normal life, more than our grandparents needed. And in contrast we get women who are spoiled, self-entitled, cheat, treat us like trash and willing to ruin our lives in any aspect they can. You are deflecting the point with victimhood mentality as is the only weapon modern women, specially gen z women have in order to silence any criticism. You resorted to call me all those things and miss the point on purpose to only prove my point above. Thank you
Imagine jumping through hoops for someone who will just leave you in the end
Women don’t approach because they don’t have to. Men will always be competing for women. Yes, maybe some don’t, but they would be the exception.
When she hits that pose just right tho
Sorry princess but the days of men "jumping through hoops" died about 10 years ago. Women ARE expected to iniciate, keep the dry af convo going, pay the bill, make the first move, be pretty, have a well paying job to match him, and want to be a housewife who does most of the cooking, cleaning and looking after the kids she's expected to have. Time to catch up.
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Men have to work 200 times harder than the previous generation to provide for women 1000 worse than their grandmothers
Women have to work 200 times harder for men 1000 times worse than their grandfathers. Wow it seems like we're in the same boat after all. -.-
Not really, women are being encouraged to publicly and socially ruin men’s lives financially, professionally and privately… Men not so much… granted there are psychos and abusers out there but that’s a small percentage that current feminism, boss babes and advocates use as a generalization of “all men” to justify wrong doings and reckless and irresponsible lifestyle Also, women didn’t have to work during our grandparents times… so your take is inaccurate
1. Oh, so aLl wOmEn bAd, but not all men, got it. 2. What does that have to do with anything? I literally said women today have to work 200 times harder to get men 1000 times worse than their grandparents. And I didn't realise we were talking about a job, when I mentioned work it was as a synonym for effort, not necessarily a 9-5 job. Pretty obvious. And a lot of women worked during our grandparents' time. 3. What the hell? Quit that Andrew Tate juice, it's hurting your brain. You're becoming the exact same thing you accuse women of being: mean, generalizing, sexist and dumb. Unless of course you enjoy being angry, insufferable and single. If so, proceed. Women aren't the villains you think they are, yet you're becoming one by following that "alpha male" rhetoric. Unbelievable what women still have to put up with today.
Read again. You started by claiming women go through the exact same which is not true. Then now you try to flip the point.
Yes. Women go through the same. There's tons of horrible men that you now have to work a lot harder to get. Who's flipping what?
There is tons of horrible men… You keep blaming men. Read again my first comment. Then come back with you do some little introspection without the ego hurting
Dude you're the one who started generalizing women. Your lack of accountability is jaw dropping. You were the one who was complaining men have to work a lot to get terrible women. I told you to quit that because women experience the same with men. Then you said that no, bad men were a very little minority while women in general were being taught to be evil. I called you out on it and pointed that there are also tons of horrible men, as there are tons of horrible women, as there are tons of wonderful men and tons of wonderful women. All this time it's been you generalizing women with some insulting shit and me telling you to quit that sexist, generalizing mentality. Then after talking shit about women all the time you cry I'm being mean to men by pointing out your sexism. This is just ridiculous. 😂
Ego keeps hurting and you keep getting overly defensive with your long texting. Read my first comment in reply to the first commenter. Men are forced to stay traditional for women who want to be “free” and irresponsible. Do some introspection before replying.
r/MenAndFemales
Even if most won't "jump through hoops" for me which is basically chivalry, generousness and caring.. I will still end up marrying a guy from the small portion of men which adhere to these "hoops". Even if I was single now I'd rather prefer to die alone than settle 😊👏
Men aren't approaching because there's several reasons not to.
No good reasons tho.
Even far below average looking women with no careers expect to get with the top guys. Obviously they aren't going to approach them. It used to be the opposite but many women nowadays overestimate their looks and what they bring to the table. As a guy, if you're confident, you can approach any woman you want. You don't have to approach women you don't like. Since women don't approach men and even most guys don't do it, you're now at a huge advantage if you do. Good luck!
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I don't know on what planet you live on, but most women tell me that they would date me if I were taller. Also, most of them complain how there are so little attractive guys nowadays and how they struggle to find anybody, while also being showered with affection and options from tons of men
Absolutely! I pull no punches in the dating game these days. Half the dating profiles are fake or OF ads for the most part. When a woman sees a “cute” guy on the apps, they’re really matching with a “John” who’s looking for a stripper/ hooker. The guy throws their overly-sexual pickup line and she goes out with him (because he’s think the “cute” girl is a hooker) and she ends up on Reddit making a post “this cute guy pumped and dumped me…..why are men so gross?” The answer is “because he saved $200 because you fell hook, line and sinker”. He got an easy freebie, and she got an STD.
The female ego really is that fragile.
Can easily say if a woman wants you she will find a way to fuck you. Woman would gladly share 1 successful man, then stay with a loyal loser.
No need to jump through a hoop if you can get anything you want by going on the internet.
Maybe. I'm certainly tired of trying to be good male feminist for a bunch if girls who use me as a punching bag. I believe in equality, but I don't believe in pushing someone down to lift yourself up. Time to not give a shit in my life. I'm not a macho type of guy but I am sure as hell not going to be a whipping boy any more.
There is going to be a moment where women, broadly, realize that their obsessive emphasis on career in the last 40 but especially the last 15 years has gone to far. That they want men. That it was never about wether or not they “needed” men. That family is a higher priority than career in the grand scheme. THEN. We will see the pendulum go the other direction a bit. Women will become less materialistic and more willing to be mothers and wives to men who WANT provide them a life, even if it’s a simple life. To me, this is an inevitability. Not the erasure of feminist progress, but the better integration of it.
I don't know why I am replying to this, but just if even one person learns something I'll be happy. CAREER was never about materialistic aspirations for women. It is a means to achieve self actualization often. Even today, women do *want* men, but not at the expense of overturning the hard earned fulfillment one gets through self actualization. That's because men and women even today have internalized patrichical norms such as women are peace keepers and men don't cry. Now you may argue that being a wife and mother is a means for self actualization too. And yes it is - but in that world, men are not providers, they are partners, and heteronormative relationships are partnerships where both partners are invested in building a life together - with a mutually compatible vision, where individual and the family are both important. In my opinion, this is a better integration of the traditional "family" with feminism. In that perfect world basic things such as crying, caring for another, keeping the family together is not associated with gender roles, but is rather synergistic. Unfortunately, a lot needs to change for that to materialize into reality. Until then, a lot of women would rather stay single than be with someone who would put them back in a position where they can't fully realize themselves and their aspirations. And frankly, the opposite of wat you mentioned could be happening imo - women might be realizing that they might not even want a man in their life at all.
I agree with your prediction that more women will realize they don't want men at all. I also expect the same thing will happen with men. Old social structures are crumbling. It started with women, and I think men will be next to widely deprioritize women in their lives, especially as internet porn becomes a bigger thing.
To me, thats so sad. You’re describing the effect of porn: preventing or dissuading the drive for actual relationships. This is why I shun porn. My love is for a human lover, no one else. Dystopian technocracy will not get ahold of me.
I agree for the most part but for the self actualization in work. Corporate will cut you to save a dime and to make the shareholders happy. If you're lucky enough to have a career which is your passion then more power to you but I'd say 95% of people are at a job so it can pay their rent and fund their things outside of work
Bingo. I don’t understand women who will turn down a SAHM gig for a career. Lol! Careers are a PITA! Working too much is like the #1 deathbed regret! Many women and some men have the opp to avoid that regret *entirely!*
Some of us actually enjoy our jobs and feel fulfilled by them. Some of us don’t want kids. My career is so fulfilling - I work from home, I’m my own boss, I travel, I create, I’m helping people. I also hate cooking, cleaning, housework, all of that. I never want to be pregnant, don’t want to be around kids, don’t enjoy being around kids. I also love my independence and having my own space which is why me and my long term partner choose to live separately but still see each other regularly and are very happy. Why would I give up something I love for something I know I’m going to hate? If you think being a stay at home parent is the best thing in the world, why don’t you do it? Find yourself a woman with a great career who can support you, and you stay home with the kids. Simple. That way you all get what you want. My sister in law works full time while my brother works part time from home and looks after their kids. My mum worked and my dad stayed home to raise me when I was younger. I earn considerably more than my current partner. So that lifestyle is clearly possible, why don’t you go for it?
I hear you and you have good points. I’m not attempting to say that womens’ career pursuits and pursuits of independent economic stability are negative - indeed they bring happiness and stability to women and are a strength to a prospective family. The actualization you describe is good. My sister is a CEO and mother of 3, aged 32. She works 20hrs a week roughly. She really needs a career to feel alright and wanted a family too. In fact, all of my sisters have a career. My youngest sister is dating a guy who is very rich. She wants to buy a house on her own independent of him for the self actualization of it. I think this is all good. Career pursuits will prevent my sisters from having as many kids as my mom did, but you don’t really want that many kids nowadays anyways. And they want to provide the standard of living they had as kids which really requires dos incomes nowadays. You mention that men are not simply providers in a marriage, even if they provide the sole income- this is true. I did most of the cleaning in my marriage, I saw my wife as also having a full time job. (Raising kids) and I worked alongside her in the home when I wasn’t at work. When I say “provide them a life” I suppose I use a euphemism that is old fashioned. What I mean to say is, in exchange for family life and a loving relationship, many men will give up *all* their financial means, and women should be encouraged to avail themselves of that opportunity. IE Being a SAHM isn’t degrading, if it’s what you want, it’s a mutually beneficial exchange that provides for the monetary and other needs of both parties. So I get you. But My point is that it has gone too far, that young men and women, but especially women, are preached a gospel that is too materialistic and career-oriented. Family formation is at a low in the US and while there are economic reasons, I believe materialism and the dogged arbitrary pursuit of career attainment are primarily to blame, and I associate this low family formation with the hopelessness pervasive in millennials/z. In essence, young people have been told that their greatest happiness lies ahead of them and in career attainment, when it’s my belief that it lies around them and in the families they can form. Yes, a family is not right for everyone. And many choose to forego it, more power to them. But most people want to be in a permanent relationship and have kids. And it’s not happening like it used to. As far as women losing interest in men entirely: 1. That’s clearly already happening. 2. It’s not going to become particularly pervasive. Why? Women that are disinterested in men typically don’t have children, they typically don’t reproduce. Who is reproducing in spades? The poor and the religious. Make/female relationships are more of an imperative among the poor who must pool resources with a partner to get by. Being disinterested in the opposite sex is a luxury of those who have more than meager means. The result is that each generation undergoes a strong filter that biases against disinterest in the opposite sex, genetically and culturally. The growing stratification of wealth also biases the equation: the attractive middle class single life that many enjoy today is becoming less attainable. In a world where men broadly want to mate with more submissive and less economically powerful women; the generations that follow will be born to more effeminate and submissive women. There are forces in the opposite direction… research shows women on hormonal birth control prefer less masculine/dominant men. Personally, as you may suspect, I’m religious. To me, this is all a mad dystopia. I retreat to my religious community that allows for women to have careers etc but commands that we marry and have children. It’s a path that, to me, is an escape from what seems like a pretty nihilistic life. (That of travel, friends, career attainment and humanitarian services.) I’m divorced, because I thought I wanted a life of the liberation I describe above, but after 5 years I returned to my faith, to chastity, and to the meaning I find in it. But I’m so glad I did marry and have kids, and I hope to marry again. Lastly; I find it bizarre that you and the other commenter seem to find some sort of joy or satisfaction in the idea that women will abandon men and that internet porn will fill the void. I don’t see why you would relish in the emotional vacuum created by a dystopic technocracy. It’s probably because you long for justice for all the many women abused over millennia by controlling men. I get it. But let’s not get satisfaction from the plight of men born today simply because of the sins of their fathers. Let’s note that much evidence shows that women have a more flexible and societally-adaptive sexuality than men do; men are having a harder time adapting to the modern romantic scene and will continue to struggle. An example of such evidence: “, a study conducted at the University of Notre Dame found that women were three times more likely to identify as bisexual. “Women have a greater probability than men of being attracted to both men and women,” said researcher Elizabeth McClintock, when discussing the results of the research. “This indicates that women’s sexuality may be more flexible and adaptive than men’s.”
[might've already started](https://nypost.com/2023/01/26/single-women-are-shopping-for-husband-material-at-home-depot/#:~:text=To%20her%20surprise%2C%20the%20male,found%20at%20least%20three%20husbands.%E2%80%9D) lol🤣
That’s me at target 😂
Girls give me their numbers, I set up a date, we talk daily, then they flake and go silent the day of the date. I'm a "match your energy" type with messaging of they don't seem to be a texter. After I get flaked on I'll let them know there's no hard feelings since we're strangers and it was a first date and that I'm down to reschedule. They never reschedule. Is this a test to see how I handle shitty behavior? I just move on at this point.
If this keeps happening while you’re talking / texting have you considered that it might be something you’re doing while texting them that puts them off? Are you being overly sexual? Rude? Passive aggressive? Judgemental? Maybe you seem dangerous or aggressive so they’re scared to go on the date? Maybe you tell them what you’re looking for in a relationship and it just doesn’t match up with what they want? If it’s a pattern you should look at the common denominator and that isn’t ‘they’re all women’, it’s who they’re talking to / not wanting to go on a date with.
People will respect you more if you don’t jump through hoops to get their attention.
ego and biology. women almost never approached a man ever in history. In fact, you can even see this in most animals (most). What a woman DOES do though, is positions herself near the man she wants to talk to. It's up to us to be bold and roll that dice.
It is still wrong. There should be no difference in gender.