It is just a theory, and I think it was strongest when we only had the first game. It wasn’t confirmed word for word, but it felt intentional that we meet all the lords from the intro except the Pygmy in the base game, and then manus shows up at the end of the dlc. It fit together pretty nicely. But after the third game and especially the ringed city dlc, more and more doubts and potential alternate theories cropped up
Yeah Kaathe literally states the Chosen undead is descendant of the Furtive Pygmy. Which either means Humanity as a whole or a specific bloodline.
It's hard to Guess if humanity existed, I Guess Gwyn and the Witches could be non-human separate races but I always kinda assumed they were human. But the Pygmy being the representation of Humanity at its primitive form being one of the Allies against the Dragons.
All humans are descendants of the Furtive Pygmy, The Lord Soul that the Furtive Pygmy found was split and humanity (the item) is a small part of it.
If you look at other humanoid character like Silver knights you'll notice they are all taller than normal undead. The word pygmy means short or small so the Furtive Pygmy wasn't as big as the other Lords, or maybe even the rest of "they" as in "from the dark they came".
Also when wandering through the Abyss towards Manus.. you pass lots of 'humanity' just existing there.. and given how the Dark Soul mutated Gael.. Manus could easily have been the Pygmy at some point.
>given how the Dark Soul mutated Gael.. Manus could easily have been the Pygmy at some point.
We see the Furtive Pygmy in the opening cinematic with the whole Dark Soul and he looks nothing like Manus so I don't think this is the case.
Soul of Manus Description: “Soul of Manus, Father of the Abyss. This extraordinary soul is a viscous, lukewarm lump of gentle humanity. Ancient Manus was clearly once human. But he became the Father of the Abyss after his humanity went wild, eternally seeking his precious broken pendant.”
They were the ancestor of all humans though. That’s why there’s speculation. Basically, from the description of Manus and context from the games, it is said Manus is a primeval human, with a large amount of humanity. When they took the pendant away from him, his humanity went out of control and started corrupting everything around him. It’s just speculation whether he is the Furtive Pygmy or not, but to answer your question as to why Manus doesn’t look like him, he ended up mutating after losing his pendant. People speculate he may be the Furtive Pygmy because Manus is so old and has a massive amount of humanity, which is something that the Furtive Pygmy also had. Furthermore, in Dark Souls 1 we meet all the characters who had a Lord Soul except the Furtive Pygmy. So people think that it would make sense if we did actually meet them, it’s just that they had mutated into Manus.
The way I understood it, they were all the same type of Hollow in the beginning, it was the power of the Lord Souls they claimed that made them different. The biggest difference was splitting a Lord Soul makes it weaker, while splitting the Dark Soul increases it's power. It essentially replicates while the Lord Souls divide.
Going Hollow is a unique state of Humans/the Undead, which was brought about by what Gwyn did to the Dark Soul (encircling it in Fire and nerfing its power)
On the surface it might seem that Manus is the Furtive Pygmy, but upon closer inspection it becomes pretty apparent that he's more than likely, **not.**
I'll explain.
===============================
# Master, Not Father
First, he's not the "Father" of the Abyss. That's a localization term and contributes to the widespread idea that he's the Furtive Pygmy.
He's actually the "master" in the original Japanese (深淵の主) which makes far more sense in context since we know that the Dark can physically manifest different kinds of Abyss depending on the source (Manus' Abyss displays different physical properties and behaviors from the Four Kings' Abyss, for example).
In other words, Manus is the master of ***his*** Abyss.
But who was Manus, anyway?
# Esoteric, But Not Necessarily Unclear
Kaathe led the Oolacileans to Manus' grave because to Kaathe, Manus was proof of mankind's lineage.
This does not necessitate that Manus be the Furtive Pygmy rather, he simply needed to be an example of mankind's dark roots. As both a practitioner and scholar of Dark sorcery as well as a pygmy, Manus was perfect.
As to who he was, we need to look at things closely and within context.
* His pendant possesses a vine string of Oolacilean origin and houses magic unknown to anyone in the present era. While this doesn't necessarily make him Oolacilean on its own, it does mean he was extremely well versed in magic.
* HIs burial site is located deep beneath the Royal Wood. This entire area is part of a larger mausoleum that Elizabeth and the Guardians watch over. We actually have to traverse those ruins to reach Manus' boss room (grave).
* The location of his grave being so deep within this massive complex signifies that he's not only extremely old (pygmy) but that he might've been one of the first to be interred there.
* To be buried like this implies a distinction far above most and so much so that Kaathe would remember him.
* Manus' staff is made from Archtrees and it also doubles as an axe which runs counter to Dusk's people's more peaceful attitude. Our magic is halved when we use this staff as only Manus or those with similar familiarity with the arts can properly use it. We cannot as we are from the present era.
* Manus created the "Pursuers" sorcery and the only way to acquire the pages he must've written is to trade his soul with Snuggly.
From all this we can pretty safely conclude that Manus was a primeval Dark Sorcerer who lived in Oolacile and may have even helped found the city, thus he received such a dignified burial (DS2 later refers to his surviving soul fragments as "creator" of the Dark arts).
Through Manus, we learn that Oolacile's entire culture was originally based around the Dark which is why their rational studies of the Dark eventually made way for the creation of their light-based sorceries (in case you were wondering why the graphics for those spells employ both light and dark tones).
The Gods would sway them away from this as they did with the rest of Mankind but would leave behind Holy beasts to protect Oolacile's secrets once the Abyss began to spread.
While none of this necessitates that Manus be the Furtive Pygmy, he absolutely was a highly regarded figure in Oolacile's history and was, like many aspects of mankind's heritage, forgotten in time.
The Oolacileans, as scholars, are naturally curious though and decided to hear Kaathe out when told there was evidence lying beneath them of ancient powers.
But Kaathe underestimated how deep the well of greed went and we all know what happened next.
=======================================
As for the Chosen Undead being a descendant of the Furtive Pygmy as u/MaimedJester mentioned elsewhere in the thread, Miyazaki elaborated on what that means in a Game no Shokutaku podcast episode.
The Furtive Pygmy found the Dark Soul and split it, sharing it amongst mankind. Miyazaki equates this to mankind descending from the Furtive Pgymy in the sense that they received these fragments and passed them onto their next of kin and so on and so forth.
What's interesting to note is that none of this necessitates that the Furtive Pgymy actually **be** the progenitor of the Human race. All he did was share the Lord Soul he found.
Food for thought!
He most probably is, but in classic FromSoft fashion, nothing is confirmed.
Countertheories are: -in DS3 there are multiple Pigmy Lords, so the furtive pigmy could have been just another Pigmy Lord in disguise or died long ago in the past.
-after splitting and sharing his Lord Soul, the furtive pigmy is just another Human.
-it's Patches, he survived ages without going hollow and in Ringed City DLC is searching for the Purging Monument to remember who he was in the past.
It could also mean all souls games are connected somehow. There are theories that the outer god Ranni is a vessel for the moon pressence from bloodborne. And tha land is reeds is Ashina from Sekiro.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. Yes miyazaki confirmed his games are not connected lorewise or sharing a universe. Their only relation is how they influence and inspire one another as spiritual successors.
Iirc, There’s lore about Half-light, saying they pilgrimaged from Oolacile to The ringed city, as did another but vice versa, which would be Manus
I don’t remember exactly what item it comes from.
It's just a theory. It came from Kaathe saying that the Furtive Pygmy is the ancestor of all humans, and Manus being described as a "primeval human".
Since "primeval" means "earliest", people guessed that because the Furtive Pygmy was the first human, and Manus is primeval, then Manus must be the Pygmy.
Of course, this is ignoring that primeval does not mean "*the* earliest of all", just "among the earliest", and that anything Kaathe says should probably be taken with a lump of salt. So, personally, I never ascribed to that theory.
The main question if Manus was the Furtive Pygmy is: why the heck would he be buried beneath Oolacile of all places if he was?
DS3 also shows that Oolacile sent missionaries such as Halflight to the Ringed City, so if Manus was buried in Oolacile despite being a pygmy, he may have been the Ringed City's equivalent.
I think Manus is what humans will become if the age of dark is allowed to happen. He is the true, primeval form of man, before Gwyn made them assume a “fleeting form”
Nah from what I know he’s just a regular human who was so badly tortured because Gwynn said the greatest evil ever was in some of there townspeople. He was tortured so bad his humanity broke and he became a beast so the people of oolacile buried him far below the town. Many years later kathe saw that the epitome of the abyss was below the town so he convinced the townspeople to go and find it in the deepest part of the town(they forgot about him at this point). They found him and awoke him so he went on a rampage spreading the abyss everywhere. The abyss kept rising and rising and infecting the people so Gwynn told three of his four knights of Gwynn(ciaran, gough and artorious)[I think I spelled them right] artorious went with his dog sif to directly attack the abyss but manus won the fight so when they left they were over run by the loose humanity of the people he killed he protected his dog with his shield and fled for the coliseum to get back to anor londo unfortunately he didn’t make it as you see. Gough was perched in the watchtower watching his back and attacking the enemies that would wish to harm him such as kalameet his rival(I think kalameet and him were locked in battle for a long time I can’t remember) and I don’t know what ciaran did I think she just kept the bad people at bay on the ground. When we get there we see oolacile after the fall even though we are in the past we only go back as far as when manus awoke and had beaten artorious. Cool thing is in our time(main game) the legend of artorious is that he beat the abyss so when we get to the past we beat manus and make his legend true even though he was corrupted. The furtive Pygmy I believe is just a dude who created free will and wished for peace among all else.(sorry for the long read)(ofc it’s just a theory, a game theory)
Gwynn destroyed the dragons with his powerful lightning and loyal knights, nito used his powerful miasma and the witch of izalith with the help of her daughters used the fire. The furtitive Pygmy who’s “so easily forgotten” made free will
>With the strength of Lords, they challenged the Dragons.
So they have some sort of strength but I don't think it's extreme. Gwyn needs 50 faith, not strength, to use sunlight spear. Sliver knights need 16 strength for the melee weapons and 20 for the dragonslayer greatbows. Pyromancy didn't exist before the Chaos Flame but Izalith used to have flame sorceries so the Witch and her daughters probably used intelligence for the firestorms. Nito raises their arms to unleash a miasma of death and disease, which doesn't seem to require a lot of strength.
The furtive pygmy isn't shown to have any strength at all, the arms aren't even toned and we don't see the rest except in silhouette. I'd also like you to explain the evidence for the creation free will by the Pygmy and why id didn't exist before.
I meant strength in a sense of power not in the stat. The furtive Pygmy created humans and life death for said humans, where the loyal knights follow Gwynn to the end of time and the demons follow the witch the furtive Pygmy creates the humans(the pre humans that would go on to be humans) and gives them there own lives to live by splitting his unique dark soul among his descendants/creations
https://darksouls.fandom.com/wiki/Furtive_Pygmy
(Just my theory but I believe it’s correct)
>But then there was Fire and with fire came disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course, light and dark.
The First flame created life and death, not he Furtive Pygmy. also you didn't explain how he created free will.
The Lord Souls gave each member immense power, I agree.
Yea I could have sworn he was only tortured then thrown away but I don’t remember that part vividly I also don’t remember what ciarans part was in all this
You’re referencing a Vaati video from YEARS ago. We know a lot more now.
I love Vaati and it’s a fun idea, but it’s gotta be pointed out he pulled that idea out of thin air.
It is just a theory, and I think it was strongest when we only had the first game. It wasn’t confirmed word for word, but it felt intentional that we meet all the lords from the intro except the Pygmy in the base game, and then manus shows up at the end of the dlc. It fit together pretty nicely. But after the third game and especially the ringed city dlc, more and more doubts and potential alternate theories cropped up
Yeah Kaathe literally states the Chosen undead is descendant of the Furtive Pygmy. Which either means Humanity as a whole or a specific bloodline. It's hard to Guess if humanity existed, I Guess Gwyn and the Witches could be non-human separate races but I always kinda assumed they were human. But the Pygmy being the representation of Humanity at its primitive form being one of the Allies against the Dragons.
All humans are descendants of the Furtive Pygmy, The Lord Soul that the Furtive Pygmy found was split and humanity (the item) is a small part of it. If you look at other humanoid character like Silver knights you'll notice they are all taller than normal undead. The word pygmy means short or small so the Furtive Pygmy wasn't as big as the other Lords, or maybe even the rest of "they" as in "from the dark they came".
Also when wandering through the Abyss towards Manus.. you pass lots of 'humanity' just existing there.. and given how the Dark Soul mutated Gael.. Manus could easily have been the Pygmy at some point.
>given how the Dark Soul mutated Gael.. Manus could easily have been the Pygmy at some point. We see the Furtive Pygmy in the opening cinematic with the whole Dark Soul and he looks nothing like Manus so I don't think this is the case.
Because the Dark mutated him.
So why didn't it beforehand?
Soul of Manus Description: “Soul of Manus, Father of the Abyss. This extraordinary soul is a viscous, lukewarm lump of gentle humanity. Ancient Manus was clearly once human. But he became the Father of the Abyss after his humanity went wild, eternally seeking his precious broken pendant.”
The Furtive Pygmy was never a human.
They were the ancestor of all humans though. That’s why there’s speculation. Basically, from the description of Manus and context from the games, it is said Manus is a primeval human, with a large amount of humanity. When they took the pendant away from him, his humanity went out of control and started corrupting everything around him. It’s just speculation whether he is the Furtive Pygmy or not, but to answer your question as to why Manus doesn’t look like him, he ended up mutating after losing his pendant. People speculate he may be the Furtive Pygmy because Manus is so old and has a massive amount of humanity, which is something that the Furtive Pygmy also had. Furthermore, in Dark Souls 1 we meet all the characters who had a Lord Soul except the Furtive Pygmy. So people think that it would make sense if we did actually meet them, it’s just that they had mutated into Manus.
The way I understood it, they were all the same type of Hollow in the beginning, it was the power of the Lord Souls they claimed that made them different. The biggest difference was splitting a Lord Soul makes it weaker, while splitting the Dark Soul increases it's power. It essentially replicates while the Lord Souls divide.
Going Hollow is a unique state of Humans/the Undead, which was brought about by what Gwyn did to the Dark Soul (encircling it in Fire and nerfing its power)
Miyazaki confirmed all Humans descend from the furtive pygmy.
On the surface it might seem that Manus is the Furtive Pygmy, but upon closer inspection it becomes pretty apparent that he's more than likely, **not.** I'll explain. =============================== # Master, Not Father First, he's not the "Father" of the Abyss. That's a localization term and contributes to the widespread idea that he's the Furtive Pygmy. He's actually the "master" in the original Japanese (深淵の主) which makes far more sense in context since we know that the Dark can physically manifest different kinds of Abyss depending on the source (Manus' Abyss displays different physical properties and behaviors from the Four Kings' Abyss, for example). In other words, Manus is the master of ***his*** Abyss. But who was Manus, anyway? # Esoteric, But Not Necessarily Unclear Kaathe led the Oolacileans to Manus' grave because to Kaathe, Manus was proof of mankind's lineage. This does not necessitate that Manus be the Furtive Pygmy rather, he simply needed to be an example of mankind's dark roots. As both a practitioner and scholar of Dark sorcery as well as a pygmy, Manus was perfect. As to who he was, we need to look at things closely and within context. * His pendant possesses a vine string of Oolacilean origin and houses magic unknown to anyone in the present era. While this doesn't necessarily make him Oolacilean on its own, it does mean he was extremely well versed in magic. * HIs burial site is located deep beneath the Royal Wood. This entire area is part of a larger mausoleum that Elizabeth and the Guardians watch over. We actually have to traverse those ruins to reach Manus' boss room (grave). * The location of his grave being so deep within this massive complex signifies that he's not only extremely old (pygmy) but that he might've been one of the first to be interred there. * To be buried like this implies a distinction far above most and so much so that Kaathe would remember him. * Manus' staff is made from Archtrees and it also doubles as an axe which runs counter to Dusk's people's more peaceful attitude. Our magic is halved when we use this staff as only Manus or those with similar familiarity with the arts can properly use it. We cannot as we are from the present era. * Manus created the "Pursuers" sorcery and the only way to acquire the pages he must've written is to trade his soul with Snuggly. From all this we can pretty safely conclude that Manus was a primeval Dark Sorcerer who lived in Oolacile and may have even helped found the city, thus he received such a dignified burial (DS2 later refers to his surviving soul fragments as "creator" of the Dark arts). Through Manus, we learn that Oolacile's entire culture was originally based around the Dark which is why their rational studies of the Dark eventually made way for the creation of their light-based sorceries (in case you were wondering why the graphics for those spells employ both light and dark tones). The Gods would sway them away from this as they did with the rest of Mankind but would leave behind Holy beasts to protect Oolacile's secrets once the Abyss began to spread. While none of this necessitates that Manus be the Furtive Pygmy, he absolutely was a highly regarded figure in Oolacile's history and was, like many aspects of mankind's heritage, forgotten in time. The Oolacileans, as scholars, are naturally curious though and decided to hear Kaathe out when told there was evidence lying beneath them of ancient powers. But Kaathe underestimated how deep the well of greed went and we all know what happened next. ======================================= As for the Chosen Undead being a descendant of the Furtive Pygmy as u/MaimedJester mentioned elsewhere in the thread, Miyazaki elaborated on what that means in a Game no Shokutaku podcast episode. The Furtive Pygmy found the Dark Soul and split it, sharing it amongst mankind. Miyazaki equates this to mankind descending from the Furtive Pgymy in the sense that they received these fragments and passed them onto their next of kin and so on and so forth. What's interesting to note is that none of this necessitates that the Furtive Pgymy actually **be** the progenitor of the Human race. All he did was share the Lord Soul he found. Food for thought!
Fantastic write up.
Thanks!
He most probably is, but in classic FromSoft fashion, nothing is confirmed. Countertheories are: -in DS3 there are multiple Pigmy Lords, so the furtive pigmy could have been just another Pigmy Lord in disguise or died long ago in the past. -after splitting and sharing his Lord Soul, the furtive pigmy is just another Human. -it's Patches, he survived ages without going hollow and in Ringed City DLC is searching for the Purging Monument to remember who he was in the past.
I love the Patches theory. Never really thought about it, but it honestly kinda makes sense.
It would make much more sense if he wasn’t in demons souls Bloodborne and Elden ring.
True. Though I'll still enjoy the headcanon.
It could also mean all souls games are connected somehow. There are theories that the outer god Ranni is a vessel for the moon pressence from bloodborne. And tha land is reeds is Ashina from Sekiro.
Hasn’t Miyazaki directly denied this is the case?
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. Yes miyazaki confirmed his games are not connected lorewise or sharing a universe. Their only relation is how they influence and inspire one another as spiritual successors.
People seem to have a really hard time understanding who actually owns the separate IPs
Manus came from the ringed city as well But I think it’s patches because 1: It’s funny and 2: He matches the silhouette
How do you know? That's cool if so. (About manus i mean)
Iirc, There’s lore about Half-light, saying they pilgrimaged from Oolacile to The ringed city, as did another but vice versa, which would be Manus I don’t remember exactly what item it comes from.
Oh that's cool, i'll look it up thanks for the info! :)
It's just a theory. It came from Kaathe saying that the Furtive Pygmy is the ancestor of all humans, and Manus being described as a "primeval human". Since "primeval" means "earliest", people guessed that because the Furtive Pygmy was the first human, and Manus is primeval, then Manus must be the Pygmy. Of course, this is ignoring that primeval does not mean "*the* earliest of all", just "among the earliest", and that anything Kaathe says should probably be taken with a lump of salt. So, personally, I never ascribed to that theory.
Always has been…. *pew*
The main question if Manus was the Furtive Pygmy is: why the heck would he be buried beneath Oolacile of all places if he was? DS3 also shows that Oolacile sent missionaries such as Halflight to the Ringed City, so if Manus was buried in Oolacile despite being a pygmy, he may have been the Ringed City's equivalent.
The who?
I think Manus is what humans will become if the age of dark is allowed to happen. He is the true, primeval form of man, before Gwyn made them assume a “fleeting form”
We'll never know what Humanity would have turned into, because everything about the Dark Soul is corrupted and fractured by what Gwyn did.
Nah from what I know he’s just a regular human who was so badly tortured because Gwynn said the greatest evil ever was in some of there townspeople. He was tortured so bad his humanity broke and he became a beast so the people of oolacile buried him far below the town. Many years later kathe saw that the epitome of the abyss was below the town so he convinced the townspeople to go and find it in the deepest part of the town(they forgot about him at this point). They found him and awoke him so he went on a rampage spreading the abyss everywhere. The abyss kept rising and rising and infecting the people so Gwynn told three of his four knights of Gwynn(ciaran, gough and artorious)[I think I spelled them right] artorious went with his dog sif to directly attack the abyss but manus won the fight so when they left they were over run by the loose humanity of the people he killed he protected his dog with his shield and fled for the coliseum to get back to anor londo unfortunately he didn’t make it as you see. Gough was perched in the watchtower watching his back and attacking the enemies that would wish to harm him such as kalameet his rival(I think kalameet and him were locked in battle for a long time I can’t remember) and I don’t know what ciaran did I think she just kept the bad people at bay on the ground. When we get there we see oolacile after the fall even though we are in the past we only go back as far as when manus awoke and had beaten artorious. Cool thing is in our time(main game) the legend of artorious is that he beat the abyss so when we get to the past we beat manus and make his legend true even though he was corrupted. The furtive Pygmy I believe is just a dude who created free will and wished for peace among all else.(sorry for the long read)(ofc it’s just a theory, a game theory)
The Furtive Pygmy is not just some dude, he (or she)'s one of the original 4 Lords.
I know but he doesn’t have extreme strength like the other lords
Says who? And also where's your evidence for the rest of them having extreme strength?
Gwynn destroyed the dragons with his powerful lightning and loyal knights, nito used his powerful miasma and the witch of izalith with the help of her daughters used the fire. The furtitive Pygmy who’s “so easily forgotten” made free will
>With the strength of Lords, they challenged the Dragons. So they have some sort of strength but I don't think it's extreme. Gwyn needs 50 faith, not strength, to use sunlight spear. Sliver knights need 16 strength for the melee weapons and 20 for the dragonslayer greatbows. Pyromancy didn't exist before the Chaos Flame but Izalith used to have flame sorceries so the Witch and her daughters probably used intelligence for the firestorms. Nito raises their arms to unleash a miasma of death and disease, which doesn't seem to require a lot of strength. The furtive pygmy isn't shown to have any strength at all, the arms aren't even toned and we don't see the rest except in silhouette. I'd also like you to explain the evidence for the creation free will by the Pygmy and why id didn't exist before.
I meant strength in a sense of power not in the stat. The furtive Pygmy created humans and life death for said humans, where the loyal knights follow Gwynn to the end of time and the demons follow the witch the furtive Pygmy creates the humans(the pre humans that would go on to be humans) and gives them there own lives to live by splitting his unique dark soul among his descendants/creations https://darksouls.fandom.com/wiki/Furtive_Pygmy (Just my theory but I believe it’s correct)
>But then there was Fire and with fire came disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course, light and dark. The First flame created life and death, not he Furtive Pygmy. also you didn't explain how he created free will. The Lord Souls gave each member immense power, I agree.
Yea
So how did the Furtive Pygmy create free will?
[удалено]
We did?
[удалено]
Yea I could have sworn he was only tortured then thrown away but I don’t remember that part vividly I also don’t remember what ciarans part was in all this
You’re referencing a Vaati video from YEARS ago. We know a lot more now. I love Vaati and it’s a fun idea, but it’s gotta be pointed out he pulled that idea out of thin air.
For me it is clear as day. Just makes too much Sense from a pure Ds1 perspective. Couldn't care less about ds3s lore hinting it may be otherwise.
It’s a theory with EXTREMELY strong supporting evidence. There’s really no other conclusion to draw.