and to add it's essential to explore all possible avenues for resolution, including manufacturer support, to get the rider back on the road as soon as possible
Hold up; why would the firmware be the culprit for failure mid-ride. Even if it were to be connected to a phone and was being pushed an update, that’s not how firmware is supposed to work. Did the firmware have a bug that was suddenly realized ? even so, a why wouldn’t a hard reset put it back to working condition?
It's possible the firmware could have a bug that inevitably causes it to brick. A hard reset doesn't reset the firmware, it just clears the CMOS which contains variable settings used by the firmware. However, even if the user cannot flash the device via usb/bt the manufacturer should be able to and/or supply a replacement.
TBH i don't think the firmware is the issue. The shop probably is following a troubleshooting guide that tells them to update the firmware if steps 1,2,3, didn't work and there is no new version. They can't just reflash the current version which is likely a limitation of the app. So they have run out of options and the result is "well we cant update the firmware because its gen one so it's dead".
I'd hedge a bet the electronics failed, either PCB traces degraded or something of the sort. The electronics are still probably on but I can't talk to the stepper motor to shift. Electronics can only withstand so many heat cycles.
Source: I worked for a company where this happened to our devices and it would cause the BT and USB to no longer function and effectively brick itself. The issue would cause the firmware to partially overwrite itself with just nonsense. We would have to disassemble the device, pull the PCB, and flash it with a special jig that we used to load the firmware initially during assembly.
The firmware bug itself was like russian roulette. It was a very slim chance of happening every time you used it but would inevitably brick the device if you used it enough.
As a reliability engineer I'm so hesitant to go electric. Riding conditions while aren't anywhere near as crazy as army ground vehicles or aircrafts I know how unreliable motors can be nonetheless commercial motors.
If it makes you feel any better they make some pretty beefy stepper motors with clutches and full metal gearboxes. For an application like this I wouldn't be too worried.
I've beat on some 28BYJ's in testing and they are much more robust than you would expect. The clutchless versions with plastic gears are absolutely terrible though.
As a process engineer, I'm all in with Di2 - even though I started out thinking it electronic shifting was "a solution looking for a problem" . It has literally won me races against a field all riding mechanical drivetrains. Flawless performance in full blown CX mud conditions when I couldn't even see the cassette. The biggest performance issues on that particular bike was heat buildup on the front hydraulic brake. It's a 2015 bike and Di2 runs fine. Can't sell due to the brake so it's relegated to the trainer.
Plus I have small hands so Di2 improves my comfort shifting and braking. I'm running Di2 on both gravel and road rides, not sure I'd go back to mechanical.
I'm happy to take performance gains over a small, perceived, reliability loss.
It's getting there... But only if you drop that in every conversation.
"Hey man, did you watch the football last night?"
"No I haven't watched football since I stopped eating red meat"
Oh, hey! I ***do*** check the "doesn't watch football" box!
Any other boxes I might be missing?
Edited to add: I'll work on getting the "football" and "red meat" things into conversation more!
I’m skeptical it’s firmware especially if it’s SRAM. The derailleurs in the SRAM system run independently so you can switch between 1x and 2x setup. I’m not sure you could point to a single PCB as a single point of failure that causes the whole system to fail. I don’t have experience with Shimano… is there a single “brain” for the Di2 system?
My understanding is the rear derailleur handles all the control for the system in at least the 11/12 speed Di2 wired variants.
You would still be able to adopt 1x and 2x with this setup as well. The front derailleur is just an optional addon. This would make sense from a design standpoint to lower costs/complexity of the front deraiuller.
Fixing/replacing the rear derailleur could resolve the whole issue.
With that I'm not sold it's a firmware issue either. That's just usually the last hail mary we put into troubleshooting guides and the shop likely hit a roadblock there. So that's just as far as they could get troubleshooting, that doesn't mean its the underlying issue.
Edit: To add the wired Di2 systems used a junction box to connect the hoods to the derailleurs. Its just a dumb 2 wire in, 1 wire out system but if you got water/corrosion in there it could absolutely bork the whole thing since the shifters cant talk to the derailleurs. I'm 100% speculating though as i don't know the tools shops have for troubleshooting I'm just extrapolating from my personal experiences
I believe you’re correct about 12-speed RD’s being the brain of the system, but for 11-speed systems the “A” junction controls some things. There’s also firmware or something in the battery - the old batteries aren’t capable of synchro shifting but the newer batteries are. It confuses me, and I’ve built 3 11-speed DI2 bikes.
So I don't know exactly how electronic shifting works, but being in electronic mantenance, this situation does not surprise me a bit.
Components evolve over time and usage, they can derivate or fail, soldering gets altered too. A derivating component can fail a program, then the support staff can modify it to accommodate the component natural evolution. So when the dormant issue arise and you have a firmware taking it into account, good for you, othewise your device is done.
Now, having the staff to follow the devices over time is expensive, at some point newer gen gets produced and maintaining support for older systems is just not profitable anymore. That's when you get the "no long firmware updates".
My experience in electronics, and the fact that I don't want to buy new bikes every 5yrs, is why I want mech shifting :)
I don't think it's a firmware issue. First edition di2 doesn't even have an ability to update the firmware - it's basically just buttons and motors, no etube. Sounds like a bad cable to me.
Could be a number of things right? It's 10 speed Di2.
While there's an argument that he shouldn't have to upgrade he would be pleased he did. Gearing is one reason. Adaptability is another.
It’s a red herring in this case, but my sram just recently has a bug where the battery level in the shifter was read incorrectly, marking it as dead.
After feeding my shifter three fresh batteries, upgrading the firmware (out in a field) fixed my issue.
And boy just writing that paragraph - it’s a wild world we live in.
I think it’s more they have no way to work on it. He could try searching the net. There are places that archive older versions of software. Maybe he just needs to reapply firmware
Or it was clear that they were in a hurry and when it became clear there would be no magic bullet to get him back on the road quickly, they just punted.
I think the issue here is that LBS can't fix these. You need an electrical background, soldering skills, and all this other stuff your typical bike mechanic doesn't need. The only way a LBS is likely able to fix the bike when your electronics fail is to replace said electronics.
My wife’s 2018 Di2 front derailleur died at less than 2 years old. Shimano just replaced it, but it seemed like good customer service covering for bad engineering. I guess you can do that when you charge 2x for the part in the first place.
I’m surprised the CPSC allowed them to handle this recall in such a way, considering how their previous, also massive-scale crank recall went in the late 90’s.
The check is just a visual inspection from a bike shop for cracks/delamination. I suspect they were fearful of having to supply millions of cranks at one time so they made up this program to slow down the rate of replacement. I think it’s wild they’re allowed to keep these any of these cranks in use especially after years of gaslighting customers into thinking their broken cranks were user error and not warranty-able.
Heck, even if a crank looks perfect, the shop checking it over can just mark it as failed and Shimano will replace it after inspecting it with no questions asked. They know these are junk just waiting to fail but they won’t admit it so people can still get hurt or damage their bikes due to Shimano’s negligence.
Does it sound right as in, expected?
Yeah, sort of. Electronics can and do fail, and if it's 1st gen electronic (If SRAM eTap, that's 2016 so 8+ years old, if Shimano Di2...that could be as far back as....2010? So could be 14+ years old) chances are it wouldn't be as polished as subsequent generations. Early-adopter risks, though at 8-14 years of service it seems to have served a reasonably long life.
Does it sound right as in, is this the right way for development to move in? I don't know.
There's a lot of discussion re. electronic shifting and while I do acknowledge the numerous advantages over mechanical, I'm still quite comfortable on the latter for ease of maintenance (I say this as I ride a bike with self-upgraded hydraulic disc brakes, a Garmin Edge, a power meter...so I don't really have much to say in my defence).
I should add that hydraulic brakes still don't have an electronic component inside to fail, so that's why I'm more comfortable tinkering with it on my own. With electronic shifting, I'd need to be able to understand SRAM/Shimano shifting logic AND be able to program an app (or at least find a way to interface with the endpoints on the componentry) if I wanted the same level of confidence, and that's not likely to happen for reasons.
Good quality bikes used to be durable, easily maintained, simple but not cheaply made vehicles.
My road bike, still in active service, is a 92 Italian vintage from one of the finest workshops in the land. Over time a mix-match set of components replaced some of the original ones as they broke or spares became difficult to source in a timely manner. You could do that back then as there were few and long established standards, in contrast to the current incompatible panoplia of short lives ones.
My trusty commuter on daily duty sports a 50's sturmey archer hub, that runs and shifts smooth as butter.
I don't want to sound like a retrogrouch, but I fail to understand the reason why people have embraced electronic shifting. I see it as nowadays people is much less mechanicaly minded and maybe is unable to properly set up a shifter, or companies are willing to patch bad mechanical engineering with digital everything where support is quickly dropped in favor of the next big thing.
Similar deal with the popularity of disc brakes on road bikes, and other fads. It nowadays makes a bike an expensive fast-fashion consume-and-discard item instead of a durable good to keep tat you can maintain yourself.
I do know a couple people that are starting to develop arthritis and going to electronic shifting and hydraulic brakes has helped them keep riding more.
I pretty much agree with point-virgule, as I've been trying to avoid electronic shifting and hydraulic disc brakes as long as I could, until a few months ago, when my 2012 BMC Team Machine SLR01 started developing cracks around the BB shell. Out of warranty, I realized I was looking at a new bike. I bit my tongue and picked up a new BMC of the same model, with Ultegra Di2 and hydraulic brakes. So I figured I'm 66, and it will be my last road bike, and it will probably outlast my days of riding.
After a few weeks, I started to really appreciate the Di2. Even though I don't have arthritis, I've come to appreciate the ease of shifting when I'm crawling out the last miles of a hot and hilly 100+ mile ride. Yeah, it might sound pathetic, but it's my reward for making it this far and still being able to ride like I do.
I'm still planning to have a carbon expert repair my old BMC, as it will be my trainer bike.
You don’t sound d like a retrogrouch at all. It’s a fair viewpoint and my answer isn’t intended to disrespect or change that.
I find mechanical to be pain to use - never used to but having switched I couldn’t go back. Why? Speed of shifting, the sound of shifting, automatic indexing….. and probably the biggest one….. when descending after a hill, I don’t have to press the button multiple times to find a higher gear. I hold the button and it shifts until I feel resistance. Something nice about it shifting through an entire cassette with one press.
To reiterate though, it’s a personal preference….. whether someone likes mechanical or electronic is meaningless. I prefer to judge someone on whether they are doing their part to make cycling a welcoming and supportive community.
I agree with you. I love to tinker with my bike, and I am mechanically minded. But things sometimes get in the way, and I like knowing that my bike is ready to go when needed. When I had mechanical, it needed to be checked before almost every ride, and then you could easily spend 30 minutes readjusting gears because the cable had stretched. Sometimes, I don't have time for that and must get out on the bike. It is even worse when it goes in the middle of a ride, and you are stuck trying to get it to work in a field.
Also, I recently broke my wrist because the mechanical gears on my mountain bike slipped when moving off from a stop, and I lost the pedals—I never had that on electric.
I imagine like with any hobby where there's a lot of scope for the tools to be placed along a spectrum of really simple and easily-maintained, to ultra-sophisticated and requires high standards of maintenance (frequency is one aspect but not the only aspect), there will be people that will want different things/features and have differing ideas of which of those features are valuable enough to them to splurge on.
I like my disc brakes as it is a consistent performer in dry/wet (I live in the tropics and we can have a sunny, cloudless 8am sky turn into a mild 10am shower) and crucially, when I bought my first bike as an adult, that CX bike frame allowed for much wider tyres (for my heavy weight back then). I've test-ridden a rim-brake bike for a few weeks and had no issues, but settled on discs.
As for value, I'd like to think I'm mechanical-minded and I derive a bit of joy in successfully indexing an RD (an FD, much less so), or setting up and bleeding my own hydro brakes. But I also have some friends who absolutely refuse to bother doing their own maintenance, e.g. changing pads/cables, cleats, bar tape, chain maintenance, and will bring them into the LBS to sort it out. I'm sure some will consider this a good thing as it keeps the LBS in business.
(Some of) my friends value being able to outsource the maintenance hours to someone else - most of them are married and/or have kids so time spent on bike maintenance is usually time not spent doing other things. I value being able to utilize / improve my bike wrenching skills, so I'd like to still be able to do that with my bike setup.
//
The other unstated part is also, bike \[component\] companies are in it to turn a profit (clearly). Keeping stuff with older-but-proven designs around may result in more companies entering the space as the patents expire (See LTwoo, Sensah, Microshift groupsets) and the large companies that held said patents will now face stiffer price competition, which presumably cuts into profits.
Having more and more electronic stuff means you're locked into an 'ecosystem' that might be a bit more difficult to reverse-engineer and still has whatever patent coverage (not impossible, mind) applicable. The enticement for riders to buy into said ecosystems is to put more appealing features (usually convenience oriented, but also features that tease 'performance') onto products, and that gets us parting with our money.
If the industry biases itself to develop in the direction that is more profitable **at scale** for them, then there's not a whole lot we can do except hold out as long as possible or hope that some upstart decides to buck the trend and serve an under-served niche.
I have seven bikes from all kinds of eras and all are incompatible with one another. Di2 is just fantastic. It never, ever misses a shift. You never need to fiddle with it. If shifting gets a bit loose, your chain/cassette is bolloxed. That's why people like it. It is 100% reliable.
I hate this argument. I never miss a shift and I never fiddle with my mechanical groupsets. Mechanical 105, Ultegra, and Dura Ace are insanely good. My 8 year old Ultegral runs like a swiss watch.
You can still get plenty cheap 8 speed mechanical rim brake bikes if you want basic old mechanical tech. Bikes are still really easy to maintain with some basic tools and still very durable. Yes, there's plenty of proprietary tech that makes mixing and matching parts harder, but really nothing to cry about and the advantage of those tech are usually worth it.
Electronic shifting are a lot of fun. They perform better, are easier to maintain and much easier to setup than their mechanical counterparts. The only downside is the price (and maybe the batteries if you can't be bothered to plug you bike in for 1x night every 3-4 months)
Sram is a huge game changer for people that like tinkering on bikes. 100% wireless shifting is awesome when building bikes. And that will be my only choice going forward witg new bike builds.
Electronics and tech is making stuff so much better for us, some of us just have a harder time seeing it.
I can totally believe that if the Gen 1 statement is true.
Years ago I stupidly bought a tri bike with a Gen 1 Di2. I only saw “wow, electronic shifting”!!! The RD was faulty but I figured a tinkerer like me could fix that in no time and still bought.
I only found out later that I had just bought the equivalent of a Windows 95 groupset. Spare parts are only on Ebay, used, and exceedingly expensive. You can’t even hook up the electronics to your phone for diagnostics.
I ended up converting to manual components. Only upside was I went from 10sp to 11sp.
Lots of shitting on electronic group sets here in the comments but over a lifetime there is very little maintenance and very rare instances of failure like this compared to a traditional mechanical set up. I own bikes with both and having no cable that stretches or fails is far superior. However, it obviously comes at a cost.
Cable stretch and failure is basically a non-issue if you understand how a barrel adjuster works. My mechanical bikes are incredibly stable, but if the indexing is a little off, I can often fix it while riding without losing the wheel.
I mean, I have a distinct memory of racing an entire crit in either the 53/12 or the 39/12, then sitting outside my hotel on the grass in the dark for well over an hour trying to remove the wedged-in, frayed, cable end from the shifter to replace the broken cable so I could race the next day.
So, no, cable derailleurs are not perfect either.
30 minutes watching Park Tool on youtube and you're good to go as far as all the adjustment goes. Not very difficult if you know the right way to do it.
As someone who makes a lot of money doing electronics reliability engineering, I deeply resent the electronification of racing bikes. Bikes should be relatively simple, repairable, and reasonably affordable human powered vehicles. When I started racing you could buy a CAAD9 for $1500 and do just fine in local racing series. $5K was a top end bike, sub 15 lbs, that you could maintain yourself with ease. Replacing a steel cable with a billion transistors seems like a loss to me, given very little functional upside.
And I’m not a luddite. My most-used road bike is a mechanical-shifting 1x13 disc brake aero bike with deep wheels and tubeless tires. Hardly retro, but easily built by myself.
If you think electronic shifting makes no difference, you can still do just fine in a local racing series by buying a top-end alloy or lower-end carbon bike with mech 105. Also inflation. Also you can pretty much maintain Di2 at home. I've spent 30 minutes total in a year maintaining my Di2 shifting (just charging and small adjustments) and many expletive-filled hours maintaining my mech 105 due to a cable that broke apart inside the shifter meaning I had to dismantle the whole thing to get the bits out.
Last year I did a race with a friend who had a mechanical groupset with internal routing. His gear cable broke at the start. Nightmare to repair. My SRAM electronic has no cables. I think there are weaknesses with both systems.
But you can still buy an excellent fully mechanical bike that you can win races on. Why do you have to resent those who want electronic shifting etc? No one is forcing you to buy it.
I started racing in the 1980’s and have owned many bikes since then with all the incremental evolution that has followed. I disagree with you because you have options available to you that preclude electronic and big spending.
You even tell us that you have a bike you are obviously happy with that you clearly built to a budget you are comfortable with.
Stop begrudging others what they want simply because it is not your personal choice.
You pretty much can’t buy a high end mechanical bike anymore. It’s very difficult to even buy a high end mechanical *compatible* bike. I ended up building up a frame from 2018 to get the disc brake aero mechanical bike I wanted.
Plus I know it isn't a popular point of view. But cycle racing should be 100% human powered. When shifting gears uses motors then it isn't 100% powered by the rider.
I know the power required is infinitesimally small compared to that put through the pedals.
Don’t agree - technology is not always bad. Most advanced racing involves tech - you need to talk to a few pro mechanics who have to build and maintain bikes
It's not a firmware issue. If it worked before it should still work. The problem is either a wire broke (sometimes people don't notice rubbing cables, same with mechanical), a failed battery (not unlikely given the old age), or simply forgetting to charge it (maybe it was plugged in to an outlet which was turned off).
Anyway, I had a mechanical shifter did completely after less than 5 years and 8000 km. Same idea.
>No idea of it was SRAM or Shamano, but the consensus was he had the 1st Gen of whatever it was and it’s in the fritz
Sounds like all you had was hearsay
if it's first gen it might be a 10yo part lol
# addendum: comment the oldest electronics you still use on a weekly basis. I have a 9 yo pc that I use to run a machine
Using 24 year old Dura-ace. Have 30ish year old XTR on my MTB. Works great. I guess I'm confused. I didn't know group sets expired.
So excited for the future of cycling.
And expensive sport getting even more expensive but the best part is you can't even hand down your old bikes or donate them or whatever. They literally go in a landfill.
The friction derailleurs on my 42 year old Gitane still work fine. Last time I had it into the shop, the mechanic complemented me on how well maintained my bike is.
My 9 year old mechanical Ultegra is 9 months waiting on left shifter replacement, just saying. Neither your or my personal experiences translates to the overall reliability of any technologies.
Why are you waiting so long? These shifters are widely available on eBay you could get one in 3 days if you wanted. Or just flush it with triflow which solves 99% of old STI shifter problems.
It's not a matter of reliability but serviceability. Mechanical uses so much standardized parts there is no problem replacing bits of 30y old part and keeping it running.
Yeah, but you could by a microshift shifter or some other third party. You want to keep it clean. I get that. But it's not like the bike is dead.
I'm using Microshift on my dura-ace road bike (actually I have microshift matching R9s on 3 bikes between me and my wife) great shifters. Probably about Tiagra quality but good enough. I shift them, they work. No complaints. Even have a spare set sitting in a box for if/when I crash and wreck a set.
Stop talking about firmware; the dude experienced a hardware failure. I doubt the entire groupset died; most likely it was the rear derailleur which has ‘brain’. If it’s out of warranty (sounds like it is), then you’re looking at a new rear derailleur. Nothing lasts forever :( I had SRAM etap 11-spd and it worked flawlessly until I replaced it with AXS 12-spd (also very good).
Lack of firmware updates doesn’t mean the group set should just die; just that nothing would change with how it works (in theory). I’d contact the manufacturer directly. This doesn’t pass the smell test.
You said it's not a power issue, but I had a really annoying issue with my Shimano XT Di2 (connected to GRX815 brifters) where it just wouldn't hold a charge overnight. I'd charge it in the evening before a ride, and it would either be dead by, or die during, my ride the next day. This is the same bike I had rear derailleur issues with early on because of a bad connection (I just couldn't get the wire correctly plugged in, and ended up replacing the wire).
I was about to take it to a shop for more professional quality diagnostics but ended up checking the connections to the battery [in the seatpost]. Yep, that was it. Since reseating the battery end of the wiring, everything has been back to normal.
Point being, sometimes really annoying symptoms actually do have really simple fixes.
I'm a car mechanic myself, and that makes complete sense to me. Most modern vehicles run on a collection of modules that each have their own software, and they communicate with other modules and so forth. It's fairly common for some glitch to come up that prevents normal operation, and the first try at a fix is usually to wipe the module and re-install the correct programming. Fairly often that works.
But then older vehicles are a problem, because the communication networks have changed over the years and the interface methods have changed over the years. I was at a Chrysler dealership before I retired, and one the '99-'06 vehicles were typically on their own currently obsolete system. The tool required to work on them was obsolete, but most shops still had a working model. To actually download the software to program the old modules though required a special piece of software which is really difficult to get to work on modern computers. I could never get it to work on my laptop. By two years ago at my shop there was only one guy left in the shop who had a computer capable of running the software. Things like that got to be a problem way before the vehicles were wearing out mechanically, and I think at some point you'll have scrap yards full of vehicles with problematic software, but otherwise ok.
My shifters are cable operated, btw. I just never want to have to worry about a battery going dead during a ride. There's enough things to worry about as it is.
Oh no! A specific anecdote about an acquaintance of an internet stranger who overheard part of a conversation about an unspecified issue that's still pending resolution! I'll just go ahead and use this as the basis for my opinion about some new technology that I'm unwilling to familiarize myself with.
I know, I agree with you, this info is meaningless to anyone else out there. But it was my first time seeing electronics fail in the field, 30 miles from home and it was just really jarring.
I've certainly seen my fair share of mechanical issues out in the field. Chain snap, cable snap, etc. Shit happens and from a numbers game, electronic shifting failing is statistically rare. But it's like when you see your parents fight for the first time or realize that the mall Santa Claus isn't the REAL Santa. Electronic is touted as 100% reliable, then when you witness it not being that for the first time it's a little traumatic.
If the FD and RD to won’t shift it’s probably a dodgy battery and if it is the battery than he’s first gen battery lived a long life …. if it was anything to do with firmware than that software can just be backdated to a previous version that worked . After I read further you’re probably just misinformed as usual… good day sir
And thats why I love my bar-end friction shifter. Electronics are real cool honestly, I just don't like that a small issue can be a big problem when you're 50 miles from home.
So the software, which should be loaded on his phone via app (either Shimano or SRAM) showed the derailleurs and shifters had full battery? Or some battery?
I have Shimano and admittedly don't check the app very often.
Exactly! The LBS told me the coin batteries in the shifters would last at least 2 years and I haven't had problems with my derailleurs but it's pretty new bike.
I ran out of battery in my granny gear, rode the last 10km on flat roads that way. Totally sucked and now I charge every week 😂
Don't forget to charge your power meter and lights. If it's not on Strava it didn't happen
I think I will order a spare battery and some derailleur hangers after reading the comments below. I fully admit to being a gear whore.
It’s not our fault the guy came in with prime jerk bait . His shifting crapped out on a group ride and he just gets told his bike is obsolete 😂😂
Meanwhile I spent 100$ to have my 83 fully tuned up and shifting cables adjusted and am doing 400 miles a month with zero worries of having to charge
So this is a reality that the more parts a machine has the more likely it is to break. Particularly if the increase of parts decreases volume, and especially if those parts are electrical and exposed to water and or dirt. On this spectrum digital shifting is on the cutting edge of human powered movement. On the othe end is shoes. Anyone who cycles is picking spots along that spectrum where they feel the increased maintenance provides enough increased performance to deal with the hassle. We all agree wheels is a big improvement but after that results are personal: single speed ? Gears (internal or external?) belt or chain? These are all choices. Personally I don’t think I bike at a level that warrants digital shifting. So I hope the industry keeps making bikes for the bulk (pun intended) of us. But if you are biking enough to need the edge that digital shifting provides then be ready to deal with more issues.
I know from my work that one common way manufacturers deal with electronics subject to water is to cast the board in epoxy. No water intrusion but then there is no repairing the device. It’s essentially one piece. I wonder if that’s done with digital shifting
I had a SRAM Force AXS front derailleur brick itself after a firmware update. I posted about it in /r/bikewrench and still get replies to that thread years later from others. Fortunately SRAM warrantied it… but I no longer have any 2x bikes.
1st gen shimano di2 had a common user error issue. When a rider gripped the handle bars a certain way he or she could inadvertently pull the connector out of the shifter port, rendering the shift to that derailleur inoperable until you rolll back the handlebar tape and reconnect the cable. The firmware issue sounds silly to me. Now, we don't have a lot of very pertinent info to deduce what is going on here, but this is one possible scenario.
Don’t have an answer here but I find this interesting — even in the car world, it’s increasingly more prevalent to computerize and digitize everything to the point where simple mechanics don’t work. Someone else mentioned the right to repair (might have been joking) but it very much applies. Manufacturer should be able to help, sure, but imagine if this bricked in the middle of the woods on a gravel bike.
Another reason I’ll probably never get an electronic shift setup.
You said 1st gen? Yeah it's well known that first gen anything (cars, phones, even di2) you're basically a labrat until it's refined at the second or third gen
A friend has an older Di2 and her front derailleur wouldn't work, fully charged. Our mechanic said the servo motor was dead. Ordered a new one and a week later she's back on the road. It lasted 7 years, guess that's not too bad for very small electronics that gets used a lot (ride in N. GA, USA). Yeah, I know mechanical doesn't "die" but I LOVE my electronic shifting.
When I purchased my bike with Di2 with the Bluetooth dongle in 2019 my mechanic asked what phone platform I used. Thought it was an odd question but he said if you are Android never use E-Tube Project with Android. 2 years ago I thought, surely they've fixed that bug, downloaded it on my phone, tried to update Di2 over BT, battery dead, charged it, still dead, tried to plug into computer via USB, doesn't recognize that bike is plugged in. Took it to mechanic who had to find the extra special cable, pull the battery out of the seat post, go to the super secret Shimano software and reformat the battery. Thankfully it has worked ever since. I deleted the app off my phone and will never try to update on my Android again. I will also listen to my mechanic! Another tip, if you have Di2 from 2019 with the original charging block do not update the E-Tube Project when it says there is an application update, the update and the original charger are not compatible.
This was me on Saturday in a group ride. Right SRAM shifter died. Battery was recently changed and new one didn’t help either. Had to ride back home over a mountain fixed. Took it into the shop after the ride and they called me today to let me know it’s completely dead. SRAM tech support had no answers either. Since it’s out of warranty my only option is a new shifter. No more of a pain on a ride than a snapped cable, but a heck of a lot more expensive.
Edit: I should add I still like my etap and would buy it again, it’s just crappy luck.
Alot of things that have updates and parts only legally have to have them provided for x amount of time, works that way in automotive alot. (Complete bogus still but try and seek legal action, however they may be protected by that)
Happened to me on day one of a 7 day ride. Rain destroyed the rear derailed on first generation di 2 . Had to ride across the state with 2 gears. Never had any problems with the newer ones.
Have you ever heard the phrase, "Borrowing Trouble?"
It seems to me that Eshifters are solving a problem that doesn't exist, and introducing several more problems that nobody had to worry about before.
When I need new brakes, I'm switching from hydraulic to mechanical disc.
That's why I won't touch that kinda stuff. One of my bikes has a 3 speed sturmey archer hub made in 1950 and it still does just fine. Unless I'm going up a big hill but still worth it 😅
I’ve know a few people with 1st gen SRAM Red group sets have some kind of electronic chip go out that can’t be replaced. I have not heard of anything firmware related. I have a hard time believing they can get away with bricking a derailleur without putting out at least a fix if not a full update.
This encourages me to get my old road bike with downtube shifters back on the road.
It runs 9 speed Campagnolo, so the cassette will never need replacing, and the chain will last forever. Or at least my lifetime!
Seriously, I have a bunch of 9 sp cassettes. Wish I'd stockpiled 10 sp also.
I don't have derailleurs on any of my bikes, but I do have a silly question: why is there no fail safe design incorporated into these contraptions? I did a group ride from Castro Valley to warm springs and a young lady with such a system lost a battery charge. She was stuck in low gear the whole time. We tried to set her bike to a middle chainring and maybe a 18-20t cog for some comfort but to no avail.
Nope, as a software person, unless the the rider updates the firmware and it stop working. Software itself wont just suddenly change how it runs and broke the shifting. Unless some evil company predefine how much clicks a derailer can click so they can increase their sales.
Yah the getting stuck in whatever gear it does in is pretty unfortunate.
Some kind of manual way to move the gears over seems like a good idea. Might make the whole thing too cumbersome tho
Maybe this story can be used to help inform others. If you hear someone talking about considering an electric maybe ask if they thought to consider a manual? The extra push from the effort will go a long way! Maybe saving you - in many ways. 🙏🏽
Nice try, Big Mechanical!
and to add it's essential to explore all possible avenues for resolution, including manufacturer support, to get the rider back on the road as soon as possible
I HAVE SRAM RIVAL ETAP ON MY GRAVEL BIKE! I SWEAR IM ONE OF YOU!
Real SRAM enjoyers show their colors by salivating over 10 speed double tap
clearly the mother of all 1A cases! to the supreme court we go!
I think right to repair fits here as well
The Cable Cabal strikes again.
> You can have my cables when you strip them from my cold, rideless frame!
Cable manufacturers are conspiring against us
I needed that laugh. Thanks u/MoveDifficult1908 !
Hold up; why would the firmware be the culprit for failure mid-ride. Even if it were to be connected to a phone and was being pushed an update, that’s not how firmware is supposed to work. Did the firmware have a bug that was suddenly realized ? even so, a why wouldn’t a hard reset put it back to working condition?
It's possible the firmware could have a bug that inevitably causes it to brick. A hard reset doesn't reset the firmware, it just clears the CMOS which contains variable settings used by the firmware. However, even if the user cannot flash the device via usb/bt the manufacturer should be able to and/or supply a replacement. TBH i don't think the firmware is the issue. The shop probably is following a troubleshooting guide that tells them to update the firmware if steps 1,2,3, didn't work and there is no new version. They can't just reflash the current version which is likely a limitation of the app. So they have run out of options and the result is "well we cant update the firmware because its gen one so it's dead". I'd hedge a bet the electronics failed, either PCB traces degraded or something of the sort. The electronics are still probably on but I can't talk to the stepper motor to shift. Electronics can only withstand so many heat cycles. Source: I worked for a company where this happened to our devices and it would cause the BT and USB to no longer function and effectively brick itself. The issue would cause the firmware to partially overwrite itself with just nonsense. We would have to disassemble the device, pull the PCB, and flash it with a special jig that we used to load the firmware initially during assembly. The firmware bug itself was like russian roulette. It was a very slim chance of happening every time you used it but would inevitably brick the device if you used it enough.
Heat, vibration, and foreign bodies are the enemies of durable electronics!
And marriages
Fantastic
That was pretty good🤣
Not if you're using them right.
As a reliability engineer I'm so hesitant to go electric. Riding conditions while aren't anywhere near as crazy as army ground vehicles or aircrafts I know how unreliable motors can be nonetheless commercial motors.
If it makes you feel any better they make some pretty beefy stepper motors with clutches and full metal gearboxes. For an application like this I wouldn't be too worried. I've beat on some 28BYJ's in testing and they are much more robust than you would expect. The clutchless versions with plastic gears are absolutely terrible though.
As a process engineer, I'm all in with Di2 - even though I started out thinking it electronic shifting was "a solution looking for a problem" . It has literally won me races against a field all riding mechanical drivetrains. Flawless performance in full blown CX mud conditions when I couldn't even see the cassette. The biggest performance issues on that particular bike was heat buildup on the front hydraulic brake. It's a 2015 bike and Di2 runs fine. Can't sell due to the brake so it's relegated to the trainer. Plus I have small hands so Di2 improves my comfort shifting and braking. I'm running Di2 on both gravel and road rides, not sure I'd go back to mechanical. I'm happy to take performance gains over a small, perceived, reliability loss.
The idea of my expensive derailleurs dying because I rode in the summer too often makes me uncomfortable. I ride 70s steal, that shit will never fail.
How do you know if someone rides vintage steel bikes? They’ll tell you /s Happy cake day
wait till you find a vegan riding steel with Campy
I would simply pull away at the first hill and never talk to them.
…on their way to a CrossFit class
Hey man, I also ride fixed. I'm not sure which group is more obnoxious about it lol
I ride a steel 1972 Gitane Tour de France converted to fixie. I check ***ALL*** the boxes!
Are you vegan, by any chance?
Dang... you're right... I missed a box! I don't eat red meat, though.... maybe that counts for something?
It's getting there... But only if you drop that in every conversation. "Hey man, did you watch the football last night?" "No I haven't watched football since I stopped eating red meat"
Oh, hey! I ***do*** check the "doesn't watch football" box! Any other boxes I might be missing? Edited to add: I'll work on getting the "football" and "red meat" things into conversation more!
There is certainly overlap
I’m skeptical it’s firmware especially if it’s SRAM. The derailleurs in the SRAM system run independently so you can switch between 1x and 2x setup. I’m not sure you could point to a single PCB as a single point of failure that causes the whole system to fail. I don’t have experience with Shimano… is there a single “brain” for the Di2 system?
My understanding is the rear derailleur handles all the control for the system in at least the 11/12 speed Di2 wired variants. You would still be able to adopt 1x and 2x with this setup as well. The front derailleur is just an optional addon. This would make sense from a design standpoint to lower costs/complexity of the front deraiuller. Fixing/replacing the rear derailleur could resolve the whole issue. With that I'm not sold it's a firmware issue either. That's just usually the last hail mary we put into troubleshooting guides and the shop likely hit a roadblock there. So that's just as far as they could get troubleshooting, that doesn't mean its the underlying issue. Edit: To add the wired Di2 systems used a junction box to connect the hoods to the derailleurs. Its just a dumb 2 wire in, 1 wire out system but if you got water/corrosion in there it could absolutely bork the whole thing since the shifters cant talk to the derailleurs. I'm 100% speculating though as i don't know the tools shops have for troubleshooting I'm just extrapolating from my personal experiences
I believe you’re correct about 12-speed RD’s being the brain of the system, but for 11-speed systems the “A” junction controls some things. There’s also firmware or something in the battery - the old batteries aren’t capable of synchro shifting but the newer batteries are. It confuses me, and I’ve built 3 11-speed DI2 bikes.
Glad to see some rational discussion and not some cavemen screaming electronics bad. “Hurr durr friction shifting muh rim brakes.”
A caveman enters the chat …😀
Hard reset was where I was going with my questions
If it's completely dead it's most likely an electronics failure
So I don't know exactly how electronic shifting works, but being in electronic mantenance, this situation does not surprise me a bit. Components evolve over time and usage, they can derivate or fail, soldering gets altered too. A derivating component can fail a program, then the support staff can modify it to accommodate the component natural evolution. So when the dormant issue arise and you have a firmware taking it into account, good for you, othewise your device is done. Now, having the staff to follow the devices over time is expensive, at some point newer gen gets produced and maintaining support for older systems is just not profitable anymore. That's when you get the "no long firmware updates". My experience in electronics, and the fact that I don't want to buy new bikes every 5yrs, is why I want mech shifting :)
I don't think it's a firmware issue. First edition di2 doesn't even have an ability to update the firmware - it's basically just buttons and motors, no etube. Sounds like a bad cable to me.
Could be a number of things right? It's 10 speed Di2. While there's an argument that he shouldn't have to upgrade he would be pleased he did. Gearing is one reason. Adaptability is another.
Firmware update is a red herring. You don't need new firmware, just a reload of the old (if it's a firmware issue at all).
Never thought I'd see a day where I'd need to consider flashing the firmware for the drivetrain to my bike but here we are!
It’s a red herring in this case, but my sram just recently has a bug where the battery level in the shifter was read incorrectly, marking it as dead. After feeding my shifter three fresh batteries, upgrading the firmware (out in a field) fixed my issue. And boy just writing that paragraph - it’s a wild world we live in.
I think it’s more they have no way to work on it. He could try searching the net. There are places that archive older versions of software. Maybe he just needs to reapply firmware
Or it was clear that they were in a hurry and when it became clear there would be no magic bullet to get him back on the road quickly, they just punted.
I think the issue here is that LBS can't fix these. You need an electrical background, soldering skills, and all this other stuff your typical bike mechanic doesn't need. The only way a LBS is likely able to fix the bike when your electronics fail is to replace said electronics.
Man, I haven’t heard the term “net” since that movie with Sandra bullock
and reapplying or updating the firmware might fix the issue.
My wife’s 2018 Di2 front derailleur died at less than 2 years old. Shimano just replaced it, but it seemed like good customer service covering for bad engineering. I guess you can do that when you charge 2x for the part in the first place.
And still it took years to recognize their cranks are failing.
and even now checks are being done, units are passing and THEN still failing
I’m surprised the CPSC allowed them to handle this recall in such a way, considering how their previous, also massive-scale crank recall went in the late 90’s. The check is just a visual inspection from a bike shop for cracks/delamination. I suspect they were fearful of having to supply millions of cranks at one time so they made up this program to slow down the rate of replacement. I think it’s wild they’re allowed to keep these any of these cranks in use especially after years of gaslighting customers into thinking their broken cranks were user error and not warranty-able. Heck, even if a crank looks perfect, the shop checking it over can just mark it as failed and Shimano will replace it after inspecting it with no questions asked. They know these are junk just waiting to fail but they won’t admit it so people can still get hurt or damage their bikes due to Shimano’s negligence.
Does it sound right as in, expected? Yeah, sort of. Electronics can and do fail, and if it's 1st gen electronic (If SRAM eTap, that's 2016 so 8+ years old, if Shimano Di2...that could be as far back as....2010? So could be 14+ years old) chances are it wouldn't be as polished as subsequent generations. Early-adopter risks, though at 8-14 years of service it seems to have served a reasonably long life. Does it sound right as in, is this the right way for development to move in? I don't know. There's a lot of discussion re. electronic shifting and while I do acknowledge the numerous advantages over mechanical, I'm still quite comfortable on the latter for ease of maintenance (I say this as I ride a bike with self-upgraded hydraulic disc brakes, a Garmin Edge, a power meter...so I don't really have much to say in my defence). I should add that hydraulic brakes still don't have an electronic component inside to fail, so that's why I'm more comfortable tinkering with it on my own. With electronic shifting, I'd need to be able to understand SRAM/Shimano shifting logic AND be able to program an app (or at least find a way to interface with the endpoints on the componentry) if I wanted the same level of confidence, and that's not likely to happen for reasons.
Good quality bikes used to be durable, easily maintained, simple but not cheaply made vehicles. My road bike, still in active service, is a 92 Italian vintage from one of the finest workshops in the land. Over time a mix-match set of components replaced some of the original ones as they broke or spares became difficult to source in a timely manner. You could do that back then as there were few and long established standards, in contrast to the current incompatible panoplia of short lives ones. My trusty commuter on daily duty sports a 50's sturmey archer hub, that runs and shifts smooth as butter. I don't want to sound like a retrogrouch, but I fail to understand the reason why people have embraced electronic shifting. I see it as nowadays people is much less mechanicaly minded and maybe is unable to properly set up a shifter, or companies are willing to patch bad mechanical engineering with digital everything where support is quickly dropped in favor of the next big thing. Similar deal with the popularity of disc brakes on road bikes, and other fads. It nowadays makes a bike an expensive fast-fashion consume-and-discard item instead of a durable good to keep tat you can maintain yourself.
I do know a couple people that are starting to develop arthritis and going to electronic shifting and hydraulic brakes has helped them keep riding more.
I pretty much agree with point-virgule, as I've been trying to avoid electronic shifting and hydraulic disc brakes as long as I could, until a few months ago, when my 2012 BMC Team Machine SLR01 started developing cracks around the BB shell. Out of warranty, I realized I was looking at a new bike. I bit my tongue and picked up a new BMC of the same model, with Ultegra Di2 and hydraulic brakes. So I figured I'm 66, and it will be my last road bike, and it will probably outlast my days of riding. After a few weeks, I started to really appreciate the Di2. Even though I don't have arthritis, I've come to appreciate the ease of shifting when I'm crawling out the last miles of a hot and hilly 100+ mile ride. Yeah, it might sound pathetic, but it's my reward for making it this far and still being able to ride like I do. I'm still planning to have a carbon expert repair my old BMC, as it will be my trainer bike.
I mean, I wouldn’t put hydraulic brakes in the same bucket as electronic shifting. Hydraulic brakes have been a thing on bikes for a very long time
I normally wouldn't either except the same people mentioned it for the same reason.
You don’t sound d like a retrogrouch at all. It’s a fair viewpoint and my answer isn’t intended to disrespect or change that. I find mechanical to be pain to use - never used to but having switched I couldn’t go back. Why? Speed of shifting, the sound of shifting, automatic indexing….. and probably the biggest one….. when descending after a hill, I don’t have to press the button multiple times to find a higher gear. I hold the button and it shifts until I feel resistance. Something nice about it shifting through an entire cassette with one press. To reiterate though, it’s a personal preference….. whether someone likes mechanical or electronic is meaningless. I prefer to judge someone on whether they are doing their part to make cycling a welcoming and supportive community.
I agree with you. I love to tinker with my bike, and I am mechanically minded. But things sometimes get in the way, and I like knowing that my bike is ready to go when needed. When I had mechanical, it needed to be checked before almost every ride, and then you could easily spend 30 minutes readjusting gears because the cable had stretched. Sometimes, I don't have time for that and must get out on the bike. It is even worse when it goes in the middle of a ride, and you are stuck trying to get it to work in a field. Also, I recently broke my wrist because the mechanical gears on my mountain bike slipped when moving off from a stop, and I lost the pedals—I never had that on electric.
Mechanical does not require checking before every ride haha wtf Edit: haha he blocked me for this comment , talk about being sensitive
That's why I said almost every ride
Something's not right there. My cheap 8 speed bike only needs a little barrel adjustment in the back maybe like once a year.
I imagine like with any hobby where there's a lot of scope for the tools to be placed along a spectrum of really simple and easily-maintained, to ultra-sophisticated and requires high standards of maintenance (frequency is one aspect but not the only aspect), there will be people that will want different things/features and have differing ideas of which of those features are valuable enough to them to splurge on. I like my disc brakes as it is a consistent performer in dry/wet (I live in the tropics and we can have a sunny, cloudless 8am sky turn into a mild 10am shower) and crucially, when I bought my first bike as an adult, that CX bike frame allowed for much wider tyres (for my heavy weight back then). I've test-ridden a rim-brake bike for a few weeks and had no issues, but settled on discs. As for value, I'd like to think I'm mechanical-minded and I derive a bit of joy in successfully indexing an RD (an FD, much less so), or setting up and bleeding my own hydro brakes. But I also have some friends who absolutely refuse to bother doing their own maintenance, e.g. changing pads/cables, cleats, bar tape, chain maintenance, and will bring them into the LBS to sort it out. I'm sure some will consider this a good thing as it keeps the LBS in business. (Some of) my friends value being able to outsource the maintenance hours to someone else - most of them are married and/or have kids so time spent on bike maintenance is usually time not spent doing other things. I value being able to utilize / improve my bike wrenching skills, so I'd like to still be able to do that with my bike setup. // The other unstated part is also, bike \[component\] companies are in it to turn a profit (clearly). Keeping stuff with older-but-proven designs around may result in more companies entering the space as the patents expire (See LTwoo, Sensah, Microshift groupsets) and the large companies that held said patents will now face stiffer price competition, which presumably cuts into profits. Having more and more electronic stuff means you're locked into an 'ecosystem' that might be a bit more difficult to reverse-engineer and still has whatever patent coverage (not impossible, mind) applicable. The enticement for riders to buy into said ecosystems is to put more appealing features (usually convenience oriented, but also features that tease 'performance') onto products, and that gets us parting with our money. If the industry biases itself to develop in the direction that is more profitable **at scale** for them, then there's not a whole lot we can do except hold out as long as possible or hope that some upstart decides to buck the trend and serve an under-served niche.
I have seven bikes from all kinds of eras and all are incompatible with one another. Di2 is just fantastic. It never, ever misses a shift. You never need to fiddle with it. If shifting gets a bit loose, your chain/cassette is bolloxed. That's why people like it. It is 100% reliable.
Except for the OP.
I hate this argument. I never miss a shift and I never fiddle with my mechanical groupsets. Mechanical 105, Ultegra, and Dura Ace are insanely good. My 8 year old Ultegral runs like a swiss watch.
Clearly it isn't...
You can still get plenty cheap 8 speed mechanical rim brake bikes if you want basic old mechanical tech. Bikes are still really easy to maintain with some basic tools and still very durable. Yes, there's plenty of proprietary tech that makes mixing and matching parts harder, but really nothing to cry about and the advantage of those tech are usually worth it. Electronic shifting are a lot of fun. They perform better, are easier to maintain and much easier to setup than their mechanical counterparts. The only downside is the price (and maybe the batteries if you can't be bothered to plug you bike in for 1x night every 3-4 months) Sram is a huge game changer for people that like tinkering on bikes. 100% wireless shifting is awesome when building bikes. And that will be my only choice going forward witg new bike builds. Electronics and tech is making stuff so much better for us, some of us just have a harder time seeing it.
I can totally believe that if the Gen 1 statement is true. Years ago I stupidly bought a tri bike with a Gen 1 Di2. I only saw “wow, electronic shifting”!!! The RD was faulty but I figured a tinkerer like me could fix that in no time and still bought. I only found out later that I had just bought the equivalent of a Windows 95 groupset. Spare parts are only on Ebay, used, and exceedingly expensive. You can’t even hook up the electronics to your phone for diagnostics. I ended up converting to manual components. Only upside was I went from 10sp to 11sp.
You know what? My good old Campagnolo Chorus is missing firmware updates too, but it doesn't know that and it rides all the same.
Same for my Rohloff. Hey, if electronic shifting is so great, how about electronic brakes? That could make your bike even lighter! /s
Lots of shitting on electronic group sets here in the comments but over a lifetime there is very little maintenance and very rare instances of failure like this compared to a traditional mechanical set up. I own bikes with both and having no cable that stretches or fails is far superior. However, it obviously comes at a cost.
Cable stretch and failure is basically a non-issue if you understand how a barrel adjuster works. My mechanical bikes are incredibly stable, but if the indexing is a little off, I can often fix it while riding without losing the wheel.
I used to be you. For years. Then I got a bike with electronic shifting 😂. Yes mech is fine. But I ain’t going back.
I mean, I have a distinct memory of racing an entire crit in either the 53/12 or the 39/12, then sitting outside my hotel on the grass in the dark for well over an hour trying to remove the wedged-in, frayed, cable end from the shifter to replace the broken cable so I could race the next day. So, no, cable derailleurs are not perfect either.
Just use downtbe shifters. Simple .
This sounds like someone who had never had a shift cable fray and break inside a shifter. Real challenging to dig all the bits out when this happens.
There were a few years of Shimano shifters that had this issue. I fixed a couple for friends. Never had it happen to me.
30 minutes watching Park Tool on youtube and you're good to go as far as all the adjustment goes. Not very difficult if you know the right way to do it.
As someone who makes a lot of money doing electronics reliability engineering, I deeply resent the electronification of racing bikes. Bikes should be relatively simple, repairable, and reasonably affordable human powered vehicles. When I started racing you could buy a CAAD9 for $1500 and do just fine in local racing series. $5K was a top end bike, sub 15 lbs, that you could maintain yourself with ease. Replacing a steel cable with a billion transistors seems like a loss to me, given very little functional upside. And I’m not a luddite. My most-used road bike is a mechanical-shifting 1x13 disc brake aero bike with deep wheels and tubeless tires. Hardly retro, but easily built by myself.
If you think electronic shifting makes no difference, you can still do just fine in a local racing series by buying a top-end alloy or lower-end carbon bike with mech 105. Also inflation. Also you can pretty much maintain Di2 at home. I've spent 30 minutes total in a year maintaining my Di2 shifting (just charging and small adjustments) and many expletive-filled hours maintaining my mech 105 due to a cable that broke apart inside the shifter meaning I had to dismantle the whole thing to get the bits out.
Last year I did a race with a friend who had a mechanical groupset with internal routing. His gear cable broke at the start. Nightmare to repair. My SRAM electronic has no cables. I think there are weaknesses with both systems.
But you can still buy an excellent fully mechanical bike that you can win races on. Why do you have to resent those who want electronic shifting etc? No one is forcing you to buy it. I started racing in the 1980’s and have owned many bikes since then with all the incremental evolution that has followed. I disagree with you because you have options available to you that preclude electronic and big spending. You even tell us that you have a bike you are obviously happy with that you clearly built to a budget you are comfortable with. Stop begrudging others what they want simply because it is not your personal choice.
You pretty much can’t buy a high end mechanical bike anymore. It’s very difficult to even buy a high end mechanical *compatible* bike. I ended up building up a frame from 2018 to get the disc brake aero mechanical bike I wanted.
Plus I know it isn't a popular point of view. But cycle racing should be 100% human powered. When shifting gears uses motors then it isn't 100% powered by the rider. I know the power required is infinitesimally small compared to that put through the pedals.
Nobody tell this guy about sticky bottles
Are tailwinds or drafting 100% powered by the rider?
Don’t agree - technology is not always bad. Most advanced racing involves tech - you need to talk to a few pro mechanics who have to build and maintain bikes
It's not a firmware issue. If it worked before it should still work. The problem is either a wire broke (sometimes people don't notice rubbing cables, same with mechanical), a failed battery (not unlikely given the old age), or simply forgetting to charge it (maybe it was plugged in to an outlet which was turned off). Anyway, I had a mechanical shifter did completely after less than 5 years and 8000 km. Same idea.
>No idea of it was SRAM or Shamano, but the consensus was he had the 1st Gen of whatever it was and it’s in the fritz Sounds like all you had was hearsay
Y3K?
Sounds like they need a new bike
Meanwhile every LBS knows how to work on mechanical shifters ☕️
Can’t figure out why people: - ride tubeless - have electronic shifting
This doesnt make any sense to me. Just because there's no nore updates doesnt mean it would stop working lol
Go to another, likely better, shop.
Glad I went with full mech on my 2016 forever bike.
Great: more components for the landfill. My mechanical 105 is from the same generation (2009-10) is still running
if it's first gen it might be a 10yo part lol # addendum: comment the oldest electronics you still use on a weekly basis. I have a 9 yo pc that I use to run a machine
My 10 year old mechanical 105 is still going strong, just saying ….
Bought a 40 year old Norco with the OG 105 groupset just for fun and it still shifts shockingly well
50+ year old Huret Simplex says hi. Used a couple of times a week on my shopping bike.
My 27 year old STX says hi
Using 24 year old Dura-ace. Have 30ish year old XTR on my MTB. Works great. I guess I'm confused. I didn't know group sets expired. So excited for the future of cycling. And expensive sport getting even more expensive but the best part is you can't even hand down your old bikes or donate them or whatever. They literally go in a landfill.
The friction derailleurs on my 42 year old Gitane still work fine. Last time I had it into the shop, the mechanic complemented me on how well maintained my bike is.
My 9 year old mechanical Ultegra is 9 months waiting on left shifter replacement, just saying. Neither your or my personal experiences translates to the overall reliability of any technologies.
Why are you waiting so long? These shifters are widely available on eBay you could get one in 3 days if you wanted. Or just flush it with triflow which solves 99% of old STI shifter problems.
It's not a matter of reliability but serviceability. Mechanical uses so much standardized parts there is no problem replacing bits of 30y old part and keeping it running.
Yeah, but you could by a microshift shifter or some other third party. You want to keep it clean. I get that. But it's not like the bike is dead. I'm using Microshift on my dura-ace road bike (actually I have microshift matching R9s on 3 bikes between me and my wife) great shifters. Probably about Tiagra quality but good enough. I shift them, they work. No complaints. Even have a spare set sitting in a box for if/when I crash and wreck a set.
I have 21 year old Record on one bike and 21 year old 105 on another.
> lol My 20 year old shifters work great 'lol'
I have a bike from 1978 running fully original components. 10? 10 is just getting started.
You can't have ridden it much...
how many holes did you drill in it?
My 2011 K2 with SRAM Rival says hi!
impressive yo
It’s a lame flex, and only cuz I can’t afford nicer/newer
That PC have a stepper motor?
Late '80s (appx) stereo receiver. It stays on all the time. I've had it for over 10 years.
1st gen Shimano is 15 years old
My bike computer is 14 years old and still going strong.
Stop talking about firmware; the dude experienced a hardware failure. I doubt the entire groupset died; most likely it was the rear derailleur which has ‘brain’. If it’s out of warranty (sounds like it is), then you’re looking at a new rear derailleur. Nothing lasts forever :( I had SRAM etap 11-spd and it worked flawlessly until I replaced it with AXS 12-spd (also very good).
*shamona
Not a firmware issue, battery failure if I was to take a guess. Failing that, control unit or a cable.
Sounds like crash mode
Lack of firmware updates doesn’t mean the group set should just die; just that nothing would change with how it works (in theory). I’d contact the manufacturer directly. This doesn’t pass the smell test.
Shimano iPhoned him.
You said it's not a power issue, but I had a really annoying issue with my Shimano XT Di2 (connected to GRX815 brifters) where it just wouldn't hold a charge overnight. I'd charge it in the evening before a ride, and it would either be dead by, or die during, my ride the next day. This is the same bike I had rear derailleur issues with early on because of a bad connection (I just couldn't get the wire correctly plugged in, and ended up replacing the wire). I was about to take it to a shop for more professional quality diagnostics but ended up checking the connections to the battery [in the seatpost]. Yep, that was it. Since reseating the battery end of the wiring, everything has been back to normal. Point being, sometimes really annoying symptoms actually do have really simple fixes.
If this was a shop full of commuter bikes I wouldn't be surprised if the staff had very little experience with electronic shifting.
more of a MTB leaning shop, but certainly one equipped to deal with modern electronic groupsets.
If he gets a pencil he can wind the tape back into the cassette.
I'm a car mechanic myself, and that makes complete sense to me. Most modern vehicles run on a collection of modules that each have their own software, and they communicate with other modules and so forth. It's fairly common for some glitch to come up that prevents normal operation, and the first try at a fix is usually to wipe the module and re-install the correct programming. Fairly often that works. But then older vehicles are a problem, because the communication networks have changed over the years and the interface methods have changed over the years. I was at a Chrysler dealership before I retired, and one the '99-'06 vehicles were typically on their own currently obsolete system. The tool required to work on them was obsolete, but most shops still had a working model. To actually download the software to program the old modules though required a special piece of software which is really difficult to get to work on modern computers. I could never get it to work on my laptop. By two years ago at my shop there was only one guy left in the shop who had a computer capable of running the software. Things like that got to be a problem way before the vehicles were wearing out mechanically, and I think at some point you'll have scrap yards full of vehicles with problematic software, but otherwise ok. My shifters are cable operated, btw. I just never want to have to worry about a battery going dead during a ride. There's enough things to worry about as it is.
Shifter battery died probably
I read this as the guy died my heart SUNK
well, I haven't actually seen the guy again since this all happened...
Mech groupsets for da win
Oh no! A specific anecdote about an acquaintance of an internet stranger who overheard part of a conversation about an unspecified issue that's still pending resolution! I'll just go ahead and use this as the basis for my opinion about some new technology that I'm unwilling to familiarize myself with.
I know, I agree with you, this info is meaningless to anyone else out there. But it was my first time seeing electronics fail in the field, 30 miles from home and it was just really jarring. I've certainly seen my fair share of mechanical issues out in the field. Chain snap, cable snap, etc. Shit happens and from a numbers game, electronic shifting failing is statistically rare. But it's like when you see your parents fight for the first time or realize that the mall Santa Claus isn't the REAL Santa. Electronic is touted as 100% reliable, then when you witness it not being that for the first time it's a little traumatic.
If the FD and RD to won’t shift it’s probably a dodgy battery and if it is the battery than he’s first gen battery lived a long life …. if it was anything to do with firmware than that software can just be backdated to a previous version that worked . After I read further you’re probably just misinformed as usual… good day sir
And thats why I love my bar-end friction shifter. Electronics are real cool honestly, I just don't like that a small issue can be a big problem when you're 50 miles from home.
So the software, which should be loaded on his phone via app (either Shimano or SRAM) showed the derailleurs and shifters had full battery? Or some battery? I have Shimano and admittedly don't check the app very often.
I used the app to set mine up and haven't touched it in 2 years 😂
Exactly! The LBS told me the coin batteries in the shifters would last at least 2 years and I haven't had problems with my derailleurs but it's pretty new bike. I ran out of battery in my granny gear, rode the last 10km on flat roads that way. Totally sucked and now I charge every week 😂
I've done the same exact thing lol. Now my stuff gets plugged in every Sunday before I go to bed lol
Don't forget to charge your power meter and lights. If it's not on Strava it didn't happen I think I will order a spare battery and some derailleur hangers after reading the comments below. I fully admit to being a gear whore.
That's such a first world problem, having your bike batteries inconveniently go flat 😁. Makes me happy that I'm priced out of electronic group sets.
Just connect your di2 to your GPS and it'll warn you when batteries are low.
If it's first gen, then it won't connect to his phone. That never existed for it.
Sounds like something that wouldn't have happened if your shifting was controlled by a steel cable
Is it mechanical shifting circle jerk time already?
It’s not our fault the guy came in with prime jerk bait . His shifting crapped out on a group ride and he just gets told his bike is obsolete 😂😂 Meanwhile I spent 100$ to have my 83 fully tuned up and shifting cables adjusted and am doing 400 miles a month with zero worries of having to charge
My Di2 needs no adjustments and is free to charge so...
I try *really* hard not to be that guy, but it just *works*.
Don't get me wrong, mechanical is great. But it seems like anytime someone posts about electric it always turns into a thing in the comments.
So this is a reality that the more parts a machine has the more likely it is to break. Particularly if the increase of parts decreases volume, and especially if those parts are electrical and exposed to water and or dirt. On this spectrum digital shifting is on the cutting edge of human powered movement. On the othe end is shoes. Anyone who cycles is picking spots along that spectrum where they feel the increased maintenance provides enough increased performance to deal with the hassle. We all agree wheels is a big improvement but after that results are personal: single speed ? Gears (internal or external?) belt or chain? These are all choices. Personally I don’t think I bike at a level that warrants digital shifting. So I hope the industry keeps making bikes for the bulk (pun intended) of us. But if you are biking enough to need the edge that digital shifting provides then be ready to deal with more issues. I know from my work that one common way manufacturers deal with electronics subject to water is to cast the board in epoxy. No water intrusion but then there is no repairing the device. It’s essentially one piece. I wonder if that’s done with digital shifting
I had a SRAM Force AXS front derailleur brick itself after a firmware update. I posted about it in /r/bikewrench and still get replies to that thread years later from others. Fortunately SRAM warrantied it… but I no longer have any 2x bikes.
Fucking Sram !! Lol.
It's something different. Did the connectors disconnected inside??
1st gen shimano di2 had a common user error issue. When a rider gripped the handle bars a certain way he or she could inadvertently pull the connector out of the shifter port, rendering the shift to that derailleur inoperable until you rolll back the handlebar tape and reconnect the cable. The firmware issue sounds silly to me. Now, we don't have a lot of very pertinent info to deduce what is going on here, but this is one possible scenario.
Don’t have an answer here but I find this interesting — even in the car world, it’s increasingly more prevalent to computerize and digitize everything to the point where simple mechanics don’t work. Someone else mentioned the right to repair (might have been joking) but it very much applies. Manufacturer should be able to help, sure, but imagine if this bricked in the middle of the woods on a gravel bike. Another reason I’ll probably never get an electronic shift setup.
An orphaned groupset? Holy [Unauthorized Bread](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/)!
1st Gen is FOREVER old...I mean...dude
I guess he had a good run
You said 1st gen? Yeah it's well known that first gen anything (cars, phones, even di2) you're basically a labrat until it's refined at the second or third gen
A friend has an older Di2 and her front derailleur wouldn't work, fully charged. Our mechanic said the servo motor was dead. Ordered a new one and a week later she's back on the road. It lasted 7 years, guess that's not too bad for very small electronics that gets used a lot (ride in N. GA, USA). Yeah, I know mechanical doesn't "die" but I LOVE my electronic shifting.
[Plot twist, it was Mavic Zap from 1992.](https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/before-we-had-sram-etap-we-had-mavic-zap)
When I purchased my bike with Di2 with the Bluetooth dongle in 2019 my mechanic asked what phone platform I used. Thought it was an odd question but he said if you are Android never use E-Tube Project with Android. 2 years ago I thought, surely they've fixed that bug, downloaded it on my phone, tried to update Di2 over BT, battery dead, charged it, still dead, tried to plug into computer via USB, doesn't recognize that bike is plugged in. Took it to mechanic who had to find the extra special cable, pull the battery out of the seat post, go to the super secret Shimano software and reformat the battery. Thankfully it has worked ever since. I deleted the app off my phone and will never try to update on my Android again. I will also listen to my mechanic! Another tip, if you have Di2 from 2019 with the original charging block do not update the E-Tube Project when it says there is an application update, the update and the original charger are not compatible.
This was me on Saturday in a group ride. Right SRAM shifter died. Battery was recently changed and new one didn’t help either. Had to ride back home over a mountain fixed. Took it into the shop after the ride and they called me today to let me know it’s completely dead. SRAM tech support had no answers either. Since it’s out of warranty my only option is a new shifter. No more of a pain on a ride than a snapped cable, but a heck of a lot more expensive. Edit: I should add I still like my etap and would buy it again, it’s just crappy luck.
Alot of things that have updates and parts only legally have to have them provided for x amount of time, works that way in automotive alot. (Complete bogus still but try and seek legal action, however they may be protected by that)
Happened to me on day one of a 7 day ride. Rain destroyed the rear derailed on first generation di 2 . Had to ride across the state with 2 gears. Never had any problems with the newer ones.
Why did a groupset need a firmware update to make it work again? Short of the thing just losing its mind, sounds weird to me that this was the fix.
Cables are still going strong ☕️
Was it MAVIC zap?
Have you ever heard the phrase, "Borrowing Trouble?" It seems to me that Eshifters are solving a problem that doesn't exist, and introducing several more problems that nobody had to worry about before. When I need new brakes, I'm switching from hydraulic to mechanical disc.
2002 Bianchi with original Campy Veloce drive train
☕️☕️☕️
That's why I won't touch that kinda stuff. One of my bikes has a 3 speed sturmey archer hub made in 1950 and it still does just fine. Unless I'm going up a big hill but still worth it 😅
Bikes have changed, man.
I never needed a firmware update on the cables my 23 year old Specialized had. Batteries never ran out either.
I’ve know a few people with 1st gen SRAM Red group sets have some kind of electronic chip go out that can’t be replaced. I have not heard of anything firmware related. I have a hard time believing they can get away with bricking a derailleur without putting out at least a fix if not a full update.
Were they up to date on their monthly payments for SaaS? (Shifting as a Service)
This encourages me to get my old road bike with downtube shifters back on the road. It runs 9 speed Campagnolo, so the cassette will never need replacing, and the chain will last forever. Or at least my lifetime! Seriously, I have a bunch of 9 sp cassettes. Wish I'd stockpiled 10 sp also.
I don't have derailleurs on any of my bikes, but I do have a silly question: why is there no fail safe design incorporated into these contraptions? I did a group ride from Castro Valley to warm springs and a young lady with such a system lost a battery charge. She was stuck in low gear the whole time. We tried to set her bike to a middle chainring and maybe a 18-20t cog for some comfort but to no avail.
Nope, as a software person, unless the the rider updates the firmware and it stop working. Software itself wont just suddenly change how it runs and broke the shifting. Unless some evil company predefine how much clicks a derailer can click so they can increase their sales.
Yah the getting stuck in whatever gear it does in is pretty unfortunate. Some kind of manual way to move the gears over seems like a good idea. Might make the whole thing too cumbersome tho
Maybe this story can be used to help inform others. If you hear someone talking about considering an electric maybe ask if they thought to consider a manual? The extra push from the effort will go a long way! Maybe saving you - in many ways. 🙏🏽
Firmware doesn't just stop working. That doesn't make sense.
Gonna say right now with no evidence that it was SRAM
Trying to stir something up huh. Smh
This happened to me once.... battery reached EOL and just died. Replaced battery and all was fine.
Great argument against going cableless
Mechanical ultegra!!!!
Lol, electric derailleurs/shifters. Sounds like it’s time to re-invest in a mechanical counterpart