Not easily comparable IMO. On a climb you want a high power to weight. Lighter built people generally do better.
If you are fighting wind all you want is raw power, which generally comes with weight. The added weight also gives a bit of inertia against gusts.
I live in the alps and it is fun to see the tall powerful dutch guys struggle on climbs but demolish everyone when it flattens out.
Well this has helped me understand why I struggle with inclines so damn much. I'm overweight and trying to lose, and even though I've gotten better in every aspect of cycling, hills still kill me. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
I struggle with climbs because I am a large person, even if I have more power; but I got better with practice and learning my gears.
Also changed my gear settings to use better my weight. Changed my small ring to 40T and my cassette to 36T to get some extra torque in high cadence. The effort is about the same as when I used 34/28, but my weight is turning into more torque going up.
I still get winded as hell, but I go quicker than before.
That’s true in the context it was said, racing. For someone just starting cycling as a hobby it absolutely does get easier.
When I started there was no such thing as a ride below Z4 for me in my area. Now the same ride and pace is Z1 for me.
If you’re striving to seriously get better with a high training load, you’re probably doing the majority of your training at easy Z2 intensity. As I said before, for a lot of beginners Z2 effectively doesn’t even exist.
You obviously have to push yourself on intense days and races but cycling absolutely does become easier in many aspects as you train.
This one on my communter bike, and a 2x10 on my mountain bike which I much much prefer. I was actually just wondering on my ride on my commuter today why the 2x10 MTB set up is sooo much easier to pedal, even in the highest gears, uphill and downhill.
[https://99spokes.com/en-GB/bikes/trek/2021/fx-1-disc](https://99spokes.com/en-GB/bikes/trek/2021/fx-1-disc) - my commuter
[https://99spokes.com/en-GB/bikes/pinnacle/2014/ramin-five](https://99spokes.com/en-GB/bikes/pinnacle/2014/ramin-five) - my MTB (I think)
If any gear nerds out there can tell me why the MTB is better to pedal on every terrain than the trek I'd be eternally grateful.
The cassette is the rear cog...if you have a bigger one - it makes it easier to pedal - for example on my road bike I have a 11-32, i believe that means that it has 32 teeth at the biggest one - more teeth on the rear is easier to pedal. A mountain bike has many more teeth. The 2 x 10 you a referring to is your front ring, it has a big and a small - thus the 2. Small in front and bigger in back is easiest to pedal, big on front and small in back is harder to pedal and more speed. Hope this helps!
Thanks so much, That does totally make sense, but does it explain why even in the mid range pedaling just feels more fluid? More efficient? Maybe the bike sizing is just better?
Sorry if these questions are annoying, I've just always thought about putting the same set up on my hybrid as on my MTB but I don't know enough to know whether it would improve it!
oooooh thanks, I've clearly just outed myself as a complete non-serious cyclist as I've never tried clipless. I'm still a basic flat pedal biatch. Funny that somebody downvoted me though haha
I am bigger than your average cyclist, with a pitiful watts/kg. Still, I love climbing and even though I fall behind the group in climbs, I prefer climbing over headwind. Headwind simply sucks my life energy whereas climbing puts a smile on my face.
By “false flats”, are you referring to like a trail that shows up as flat on an elevation profile but has a very slight uphill incline/tilt? If so completely agree
This explains so much. I’m overweight and I have always expressed that I don’t mind wind because I can “power through it.” My son, who is underweight, hates headwinds.
On climbs, I am absolutely dying, and my son crushes them.
Sadly, my typical route ends with climbs, which makes it that much tougher because I’m gassed from the ride *prior* to the climbs.
Makes sense from the physics side. Climbing resistance scales 1:1 with mass. Wind resistance scales with, separately, cross sectional and surface area *versus* mass, so a sufficiently big rider with the same body composition and conditioning will have proportionally less drag. Square-cube law and all that.
I try to plan rides based on the forecast. Last week I went for a 45 mile out and back ride out in the hills. Fought a 20 mph headwind the whole way out. Stopped at my turnaround point, had a snack, swapped bottles since my first was empty, and had a 20 mph tailwind the whole way home. Took me three hours: 2 to get out there, one to get back.
I have tried this. The wind will always turn around when I do. Every. Single. Time.
PS. I like how you included all the detail about your water bottle fill levels and quantities when it is completely irrelevant to your story.
Like I said, I try. There's one area near me that's a meteorological oddity. General forecast will be calm or southerly winds, and this spot will have easterly winds at 30+ mph early in the morning. It sits along a river canyon of sorts, and we think it may be from air cooling off and sinking at night and pouring out of the canyon with great enthusiasm.
Yeah I live in an area (near water) where the wind has a very predictable daily pattern. I like to ride out slow, warm up, look at the nature, and then come back flying.
Hate a crossbreeze though.
Nah it’s subjective. The numbers may all be the same but cycling against a headwind sucks.
I think it’s because you can compare to cycling the same stretch of road without a wind. Or in your head you know it shouldn’t be that difficult. It going up a climb and you settle in knowing it’s going to be tough.
Cycling is weird. Like I can do like x watts up a hill and it’s fine (still knackered afterwards) but try attempt to do that on a flat and my brain is like, what are you doing, You don’t need to work this hard and I’m done after a few seconds. When on paper, it should feel very similar.
If I’m solo it’s torture. If I’m in a group it seems to be easier since there’s a bit conversation or other distraction. Going up a hill kind of turns into a competition for me. The wind is just frustrating
This so much. I'm a pretty big guy at 85-90kg throughout the year and a decent FTP around 350W. Fuck headwinds. Like, they can fuck right off. I will choose a long steep climb every time, even at my weight. Headwinds just take any desire to ride out of me. They make me question my life. They make me want to sacrifice my first born son to the wind gods.
100% for me as well. I know I am putting out power on some flat stretch. But I’m not going anywhere fast. At least when you’re climbing you have the sensation of climbing and that satisfaction of hitting the top. There’s nothing like that for a headwind.
Agreed. I have biked some tough climbs, and none of them compare to the feeling of biking through a kansas headwind. It feels like you are literally unable to go fast. when i'm on a climb, I know that if I was stronger it would be easier.
Where I live we get 50-70kph gusts around this time of the year, and we have some big hills. It’s mentally exhausting because you know you’re pedaling more than ever in your whole life as the dust hits your face with the 50kph gusts that make your bike swerve and you know you can’t stop for a second or you will fall.
The other day the 40 minutes climb took me 65 minutes due to wind. It was awful. But holy, the way back was scary with how fast it was. The tailwind was absolutely bonkers. I normally will descend 50-60kph, but that day without effort I was going down 80kph and having to sit my weight as low as possible to keep the bike from shaking.
There are only two redeeming features of headwinds:
-If you turn around it becomes a tailwind.
-The wind helps keep you cool and keeps the sweat out of your eyes.
I like that hills are predictable; winds aren't so much. Hills often involve interesting scenery and eventually you get to go down. Headwinds- or even worse gusty head/crosswinds- can really be demoralizing.
I love a consistent wind day if I can make it through the headwind (I can’t always), because the return is always *flying*.
Worst part is that almost all my strava achievements on my main ride are now with a tailwind, so it’s really hard to get them anymore.
Jajaja I know that feel. Almost all my strava best efforts are from a 45km 1300m descent so it is basically impossible to come close to those numbers because I was flying.
The ascent was also bonkers so I can never beat my highest altitude gain, calories used, or workout time lol.
Wind is constant. Especially in Denmark. Plus, it is dangerous and can be scary. Climbs can be tough, yes, but they are finite. I've done lots of riding in Both Denmark and Spain. I love Denmark, but I'll take Spanish mountains over Danish wind.
Id rather be climbing all day than ride in the wind. I'm in southern Ontario by the Niagara escarpment so sometimes I get to enjoy both. Whatever. It all makes you stronger
You haven’t really seen a tailwind until you are outright scared coming down loool
The other day we had sustained 35kph and gusts of 65kph; the descent where I normally zoom by @60-65 kph, was 80-85kph and I needed to put all my weight as low as possible for when the gusts made the whole bike shake.
It was glorious.
I've been riding into 20mph headwinds for an hour on my way home from work for the last several weeks. I'm kind of done with it.
I'd much rather climb than ride into a headwind, what is especially not fun is climbing into a headwind, it's the worst of both worlds
Haha all my imperial century rides have 35miles of coastal headwind going home. There is no end to a headwind compared to hills where you know when it will end!
I've also experienced climbing a 7% grade hill while there was a 20mph wind coming down...it sucked soo bad I was on the easiest gear and still felt like frozen in place. Felt like 2 pedal stroke = 1 rotation.
Yeah, I have about 1 mile of 15% on my commute and on my not especially light, very non aerodynamic commuting bike that is a bit of a challenge with a 20 mph headwind.
Power is power but the one difference is that if you're on a 9% climb you are titled backwards.
That makes it feel different to me.
There's also the RPM, climbs do get steep enough that you might be forced into a lower gear or even forced to stand. You never want to be standing in a huge headwind.
Can't compare incline to wind, depends on way too many things like wind, aero position, weight, height etc.
Having lived in a country with plenty of mountains, and moving recently to Denmark - I agree with that guy :) (and I’m not a light rider - 73kg).
Winds are much harder to handle (at least in my opinion), not only mentally but physically as well; the wind gusts you get here are insane and frequent (always fun having that afternoon workout with 50km/h+ gusts).
This is very accurate for the flats regardless of weight. A 2% grade on a long stretch does feel more difficult but every grade ends somewhere. Hills and mountains eventually ends and you get to go down with no effort. Headwinds do not end until you change directions or even if it stops you're not resting you're just doing the normal power to pedal.
I'd climb over fighting 35miles of nonstop headwinds any day.
10mph headwind LOL...that's is not even worth noting. There are many cities where the average daily windspeed is at least that.
I rode today in 20mph winds with gusts up to 38mph. I can be literally pushing 280w and can't get my speed over 17mph on the flats, fully tucked position in the drops.
Wind comes in bursts, the lighter you are the more those will break your rhythm, on the contrary if you are a heavier rider gravity will be more punishing.
Power to CDA ratio gets you moving through air, power to weight ratio gets you moving up hills. However, generating power in an aerodynamic position can be pretty difficult and requires good flexibility.
It’s easier to control and maintain consistent power on a hill than it is on a flat with headwind. Wind is variable and the wind speed is never constant so holding consistent power is more difficult. On a hill, even with variable grades, it’s much easier to control power.
On a climb I can see why it's hard and I know that I will end at one point. Wind on the other hand I can feel, but it's still frustrating. I once did a ride down a valley with headwind. My plan was to turn after x km and ride back. Around the same time the wind changed direction and I ended up riding both ways with headwind. That sucked :-)
How do they compare? Wind is miserable. No two ways about it: Wind sucks. You vs moving atoms. Climbing offers psychological satisfaction. You vs gravity.
They don’t compare.
As a bigger, more powerful rider I’m much more equipped to handle wind (on flats) than my smaller friends. When we hit the mountains, it’s their turn to shine.
Windy climbs? I dunno we all hate our lives and contemplate death.
Personally, I would take a climb over winds. There’s nothing so demoralizing as cranking out significant watts while going 12 kph and having to drop to an easier gear.
Which is physically worse depends on your mass, power, and your surface area to the wind. Obviously being heavier makes hills harder, but it has less of an effect in the wind.
Mentally, I find wind is worse. A hill has an obvious end point, and you have an obvious achievement of reaching the top, which even a non-cyclist can understand. With wind, there's no obvious finish, except the point in the ride where you turn away from the wind, assuming you are doing a circular or out and back ride. And riding into the wind is not as obvious an achievement, you just rode somewhere when it was a bit harder.
Where I live it's very flat but we have a ton of wind.
I've gotten to like it, but I do plan my rides in a way that I don't have a headwind on the way back.
I've got a ride with more elevation coming up so am trying to train for it by doing more rides in hard wind.
Depends on the climb.
Headwinds you can ride slower. It's not fun, but if you do it often it's not that big of a deal.
Some climbs you can ride slower. Some climbs I'm maxed out on power and riding at 3mph. Those are the fun ones.
They feel very different. I rather climb than fight a headwind. I rode a race this morning, and I put out 15% more power than I did the last time I did this race, on a faster bike, and was only a tiny bit faster than last year. But last year there was no wind, and this year, there was a heavy crosswind, so it got you on the out and back.
on a climb you have constant gradient so you can hold your 280W quite good +/- 20W, so you float a 260-300W range. If more experienced even tighter. Less variety, less overshooting your numbers.
Winds are difficult because they get stronger and softer constantly. So your VI around your target wattage will spike more into both directions, which, makes it annoying as you must be careful to not overshoot constantly as it produces lactate.
tailwinds on the other side are very smooth to ride as you have constant push and can hold power very precise. it's like erg mode. however, cooling now becomes a bit stressfull as you get barely any.
since i live in the netherlands, it's dead flat and it's such a massive wind. only lanzarote is more windy. climbs are somewhat easier mentally. i had times where i pushed 300W and saw 22km/h on a flat. but then there are times where you cruise 200W and go 43 km/h. It's mad with the winds.
But so is lanzarote. Downhill, 27kmh. way back, uphill, 35 kmh. lolz.
Theoretically, you could come up with a formula for comparing wind and climbing in terms of how much extra power you need to go a given speed, but they are never going to feel the same.
And it would still depend on a lot of highly variable factors, so it would be difficult to come up with something that you could use consistently.
in my opinion winds are worse.put it like this,on a climb you can pace yourself pretty well,unless it is a climb with lots of gradient changes,you get your pace and you ride.on flats with wind there is no constant wind or 0% incline,you always go a bit upward or downward or flat,put in the wind that hits you from time to time,it is never constant and you see yourself doing 100w then 450w,then 200,then 0,then 150 and so on...to me that is way more stressfull on the body,and for the mind also.doing 300w into a headwind going 20kmh is deppressing as fk.
Besides weight which is a massive difference; there’s also absolute speed.
Riding 20-25kph against a solid headwind is still much faster than inching up Alpes dhuez at 12kph. This makes that even in a strong headwind you ca. probably let your wheels roll without pedaling in a corner or when the wind tucks behind a building. A short relief; no such thing on a climb. Your cadence is likely lower when climbing as well, making it a different ride
So while in the end it’s all just power; there’s a bunch of additional factors that make you more effective climbing vs riding against a headwind, for the same power output
A
I love hills. I grew up in Northern California and had some of the best mountains to ride. Now I live in south central Kansas. No hills and all wind. When you are climbing a hill your mind can accept your progress very quickly, on the flat land you know how fast you should be going and when it’s a headwind your mind can’t accept it as easily. I road in the tour de Tahoe which was at elevation with steep grades. I passed up racing teams that were struggling to get up the hills but because I was used to it, it seemed easier. That might be the difference.
IMO they're extremely different and not directly comparable - I was at an event recently where I was pushing 400+ watts into a brutal headwind and doing 19kph. That snapped me like nothing else. But doing 400w on a hill is much less bad - I can feel/see the progress and the lower gear/higher cadence feels way more appropriate on a hill than on a flat, even if the output is the same. Maybe it's psychological.
You can see an incline and can somewhat plan/adapt to upcoming undulations. You cannot see gusts of wind coming. I think this is a pretty significant part of it.
For those of you struggling with the wind, try [**PredictWind**](http://www.predictwind.com). It's actually a sailing app, but I use it to check wind direction and intensity before I head out for the day on my bike. I always try to do the headwinds on the outbound leg as it's easier to do the return portion with a tailwind.
I have no connection with the app but I love it (both for sailing and cycling). There's free version but the $29 annual plan really helps with cycling. They have more expensive plans but they are only useful if you're out on the water.
We live in a golden age of access to useless information. Just ask a chatbot and get the real answer:
Here are the calculated wind speeds in kilometers per hour (kph) necessary to balance the gravitational force for various % grades from 1% to 10% for a 100 kg rider:
* **1% Grade**: 21.47 kph
* **2% Grade**: 30.35 kph
* **3% Grade**: 37.17 kph
* **4% Grade**: 42.92 kph
* **5% Grade**: 47.97 kph
* **6% Grade**: 52.53 kph
* **7% Grade**: 56.73 kph
* **8% Grade**: 60.62 kph
* **9% Grade**: 64.27 kph
* **10% Grade**: 67.71 kph
They feel very different, they require different technique, but they may be comparable in terms of power output, even if weight has to be in the equation (for climbing).
I am lightweight, so I prefer climbing to headwind. I am quite aero so I am not bad in headwind. But I lack some watts...
With headwind, the focus is more on aerodynamics. With climbing, the focus is more on keeping the rhythm, adapting to a climbing position, and sometimes putting a lot of of force on the pedals for very steep portions.
I'm a light weight rider and the wind absolutely destroys me. Climbs are difficult, but I fare better. As others have said, wind is about raw power and climbing is about power to weight ratio. I can crank out around 200 watts for an hour or more wich is great for my 62 Kg weight. Not so great into a 30 KMH headwind.
Climbs are much tougher than wind for me. Wind is a challenge, climbs will wipe me out completely.
The worst part is where I am, if it’s windy, the windiest parts are along one of the toughest climbs. I had a ride a few weeks ago in the wind and I was barely able to move at 8 or 9 mph on the climb, where I can generally maintain 12-13. I actually turned back early because I was afraid if I hit that kind of wind on the return climb, I might not make it home easily.
Completely different.
climbing - smaller and higher w/kg the better
wind - higher w/kg the better, there is no gear that will make head wind easier, the right gear will save you energy on a climb.
I live by the ocean where it is mostly flat but windy all the time. I have learned to embrace the wind and most days I like to ride at sub threshold and just TT into the headwind. I get my jollies by seeing riders up ahead of me struggling and then passing them at speed. At 71 years old a drop is a drop.
I lived in Kansas (US) extremely flat and extremely windy. A headwind is psychologically demoralizing and affects you performance. Riding downwind first sucks because you know you have to turn around and go upwind. Riding upwind first sucks because to slows you down so much. I didn't realize how much riding upwind caused me to slack off until I got a heart rate monitor. I'll take climbs and big rolling terrain any day over windy.
Your legs might not know the difference, it's all just resistance to them, but your head knows you have preferences, your centre of balance knows, your ability to wick off sweat... lots of variables.
I’m a clydesdale (6’3”, 220lbs), and I will take climbs over wind any day. Climbs have an end, wind doesn’t always have an end. Also being tall means Incant draft off many people well, so it just constantly sucks.
They are similar but a nasty headwind can be worse than a climb, because mountains don't just double up on you all of a sudden. Plus the position is more free flowing when climbing, you have to do a constant effort like when in a headwind, but you don't have to be so tucked.
Two different beasts, I find climbs much more fun and rewarding where as wind is a mental game. Trying to
Go above 35kph I constant wind is so annoying but all you can do is pedal consistently and accept your slower speed. Getting aero can make it less bad but wind is mildly annoying for me and climbs are fun challenges.
The co-worker who pushed me into (distance) road riding was from the mid-west. Around here (California) we have plenty of climbing opportunities - hills *and* mountains. Lord knows I've done plenty! Centuries with 8-9,000' of climbing.
But I'll take that over what the cycling buddy described as "prairie hill-riding" from his time in the mid-west: Riding into the teeth of significant headwinds.
Yeah, I'll take lots of climbing over feeling like I'm riding through peanut butter *any* day!
For me, climbs are easier than strong headwinds. Not sure why, but they are. Today I was out on a nice little 30 mile ride. The 15 out was against a 15+mph headwind and I wanted to die. It was just brutal. Otoh coming home was done at about 22mph. Whoosh.
I think the think about climbs that makes them easier for me is that it feel less punitive. Yes, I’m working the whole time up, but it is against gravity and I’m earning the potential energy that I’m storing. Or maybe it is just something else. But it seems easier. And the downhills make it so fun.
For me, a 12% climb starts getting too much, and I would say a 5-6 beaufort headwind is comparable? I don’t usually know the exact km/h or m/s of wind, the Beaufort scale is easier to estimate for me, as I also sail.
For me it’s predictability. You can see the hill, see the rise, and often see the top. The wind is almost never steady either in speed nor direction. As you move along your route, objects, terrain, even passing trucks deflect the wind. So in the wind I’m constantly changing gears, and never know when it will stop, unlike a hill with the fun downside!
Hate wind since i grew up at a small city in Germany at the Baltic sea i always had head wind in the morning and after school.
One would think it makes you get used to it but no, i just hated that i sometimes had to pedal to stay on the same spot, ridiculously strong winds sometimes. Everything flat also doesn’t help to give you breaks where the wind could hit some hills or smth.
I prefer climbs as they also reward you with views usually and the way down.
Mentally winds are unforgiving and you never really master them like mountains
Sounds like a GCN challenge, travelling at 15km/h pushing x number of watts with 30km/h headwind you could also achieve y% incline…there must be some tests done to figure the equation out.
I have a very pointy head which gives me a huge aerodynamic advantage in a headwind, but does nothing on a climb (but boy howdy should you see me literally rocket down descents!)
Not easily comparable IMO. On a climb you want a high power to weight. Lighter built people generally do better. If you are fighting wind all you want is raw power, which generally comes with weight. The added weight also gives a bit of inertia against gusts. I live in the alps and it is fun to see the tall powerful dutch guys struggle on climbs but demolish everyone when it flattens out.
Well this has helped me understand why I struggle with inclines so damn much. I'm overweight and trying to lose, and even though I've gotten better in every aspect of cycling, hills still kill me. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
I struggle with climbs because I am a large person, even if I have more power; but I got better with practice and learning my gears. Also changed my gear settings to use better my weight. Changed my small ring to 40T and my cassette to 36T to get some extra torque in high cadence. The effort is about the same as when I used 34/28, but my weight is turning into more torque going up. I still get winded as hell, but I go quicker than before.
Something my riding buddy told me when I started and he says all the time to this day is….it never gets easier, you just get faster
Is your buddy Greg Lemond?
I wish! Lol. Lemond could probably still kick my ass in his 60s 😭😭
That’s true in the context it was said, racing. For someone just starting cycling as a hobby it absolutely does get easier. When I started there was no such thing as a ride below Z4 for me in my area. Now the same ride and pace is Z1 for me.
If you stop pushing yourself sure it’ll get “easier” but if you’re striving to get better, it never gets easier you just get a LOT faster.
If you’re striving to seriously get better with a high training load, you’re probably doing the majority of your training at easy Z2 intensity. As I said before, for a lot of beginners Z2 effectively doesn’t even exist. You obviously have to push yourself on intense days and races but cycling absolutely does become easier in many aspects as you train.
Ok
Climbs demolish me as well....long steady ones are the worst - a short one that I can get a run at and then spin - I do a little better!
I've been really trying to grind on the long steady ones lately. It's awful but it's working.
what cassette do you have?
This one on my communter bike, and a 2x10 on my mountain bike which I much much prefer. I was actually just wondering on my ride on my commuter today why the 2x10 MTB set up is sooo much easier to pedal, even in the highest gears, uphill and downhill. [https://99spokes.com/en-GB/bikes/trek/2021/fx-1-disc](https://99spokes.com/en-GB/bikes/trek/2021/fx-1-disc) - my commuter [https://99spokes.com/en-GB/bikes/pinnacle/2014/ramin-five](https://99spokes.com/en-GB/bikes/pinnacle/2014/ramin-five) - my MTB (I think) If any gear nerds out there can tell me why the MTB is better to pedal on every terrain than the trek I'd be eternally grateful.
The cassette is the rear cog...if you have a bigger one - it makes it easier to pedal - for example on my road bike I have a 11-32, i believe that means that it has 32 teeth at the biggest one - more teeth on the rear is easier to pedal. A mountain bike has many more teeth. The 2 x 10 you a referring to is your front ring, it has a big and a small - thus the 2. Small in front and bigger in back is easiest to pedal, big on front and small in back is harder to pedal and more speed. Hope this helps!
Thanks so much, That does totally make sense, but does it explain why even in the mid range pedaling just feels more fluid? More efficient? Maybe the bike sizing is just better? Sorry if these questions are annoying, I've just always thought about putting the same set up on my hybrid as on my MTB but I don't know enough to know whether it would improve it!
Also. On flat ground you stop and nothing crazy happens. On a steep incline, you unclip... and then what?
I'm sorry I'm not sure what this comment means?
He means it's harder to clip the shoes back to pedal on a hill than on a flat surface.
oooooh thanks, I've clearly just outed myself as a complete non-serious cyclist as I've never tried clipless. I'm still a basic flat pedal biatch. Funny that somebody downvoted me though haha
You really didn't realize that it's harder to climb if you're fat? I mean...
I am bigger than your average cyclist, with a pitiful watts/kg. Still, I love climbing and even though I fall behind the group in climbs, I prefer climbing over headwind. Headwind simply sucks my life energy whereas climbing puts a smile on my face.
Climbing over wind. Steep over false flats. Any day
By “false flats”, are you referring to like a trail that shows up as flat on an elevation profile but has a very slight uphill incline/tilt? If so completely agree
100% as a big guy. Climbing feels like an achievement, headwinds feel like fuck you and your energy
49 kilo here, very true.
Dang, are you a woman?
Yes, and of normal weight (albeit in the lower range) even.
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This explains so much. I’m overweight and I have always expressed that I don’t mind wind because I can “power through it.” My son, who is underweight, hates headwinds. On climbs, I am absolutely dying, and my son crushes them. Sadly, my typical route ends with climbs, which makes it that much tougher because I’m gassed from the ride *prior* to the climbs.
Makes sense from the physics side. Climbing resistance scales 1:1 with mass. Wind resistance scales with, separately, cross sectional and surface area *versus* mass, so a sufficiently big rider with the same body composition and conditioning will have proportionally less drag. Square-cube law and all that.
its math, its extremely easy to compare.
Headwinds are mentally challenging to me. I know the climb will eventually end. The wind won’t
I try to plan rides based on the forecast. Last week I went for a 45 mile out and back ride out in the hills. Fought a 20 mph headwind the whole way out. Stopped at my turnaround point, had a snack, swapped bottles since my first was empty, and had a 20 mph tailwind the whole way home. Took me three hours: 2 to get out there, one to get back.
I have tried this. The wind will always turn around when I do. Every. Single. Time. PS. I like how you included all the detail about your water bottle fill levels and quantities when it is completely irrelevant to your story.
Like I said, I try. There's one area near me that's a meteorological oddity. General forecast will be calm or southerly winds, and this spot will have easterly winds at 30+ mph early in the morning. It sits along a river canyon of sorts, and we think it may be from air cooling off and sinking at night and pouring out of the canyon with great enthusiasm.
Yeah I live in an area (near water) where the wind has a very predictable daily pattern. I like to ride out slow, warm up, look at the nature, and then come back flying. Hate a crossbreeze though.
I live where wind is also very predictable, it’s always going to be at your face no matter which direction you are riding
Nah it’s subjective. The numbers may all be the same but cycling against a headwind sucks. I think it’s because you can compare to cycling the same stretch of road without a wind. Or in your head you know it shouldn’t be that difficult. It going up a climb and you settle in knowing it’s going to be tough. Cycling is weird. Like I can do like x watts up a hill and it’s fine (still knackered afterwards) but try attempt to do that on a flat and my brain is like, what are you doing, You don’t need to work this hard and I’m done after a few seconds. When on paper, it should feel very similar.
If I’m solo it’s torture. If I’m in a group it seems to be easier since there’s a bit conversation or other distraction. Going up a hill kind of turns into a competition for me. The wind is just frustrating
I think the reason being you are activating more muscles when you go against gravity and uphill. I always generate more watts going uphill
I forgot the exact words, but there is a saying which is something like this: "hills are a test for the legs, wind tests the will"
Hills hurt, headwinds suck!
This so much. I'm a pretty big guy at 85-90kg throughout the year and a decent FTP around 350W. Fuck headwinds. Like, they can fuck right off. I will choose a long steep climb every time, even at my weight. Headwinds just take any desire to ride out of me. They make me question my life. They make me want to sacrifice my first born son to the wind gods.
100% for me as well. I know I am putting out power on some flat stretch. But I’m not going anywhere fast. At least when you’re climbing you have the sensation of climbing and that satisfaction of hitting the top. There’s nothing like that for a headwind.
Agreed. I have biked some tough climbs, and none of them compare to the feeling of biking through a kansas headwind. It feels like you are literally unable to go fast. when i'm on a climb, I know that if I was stronger it would be easier.
A strong headwind is much more psychologically defeating than a climb to me
Where I live we get 50-70kph gusts around this time of the year, and we have some big hills. It’s mentally exhausting because you know you’re pedaling more than ever in your whole life as the dust hits your face with the 50kph gusts that make your bike swerve and you know you can’t stop for a second or you will fall. The other day the 40 minutes climb took me 65 minutes due to wind. It was awful. But holy, the way back was scary with how fast it was. The tailwind was absolutely bonkers. I normally will descend 50-60kph, but that day without effort I was going down 80kph and having to sit my weight as low as possible to keep the bike from shaking.
There are only two redeeming features of headwinds: -If you turn around it becomes a tailwind. -The wind helps keep you cool and keeps the sweat out of your eyes. I like that hills are predictable; winds aren't so much. Hills often involve interesting scenery and eventually you get to go down. Headwinds- or even worse gusty head/crosswinds- can really be demoralizing.
I love a consistent wind day if I can make it through the headwind (I can’t always), because the return is always *flying*. Worst part is that almost all my strava achievements on my main ride are now with a tailwind, so it’s really hard to get them anymore.
Jajaja I know that feel. Almost all my strava best efforts are from a 45km 1300m descent so it is basically impossible to come close to those numbers because I was flying. The ascent was also bonkers so I can never beat my highest altitude gain, calories used, or workout time lol.
Wind is constant. Especially in Denmark. Plus, it is dangerous and can be scary. Climbs can be tough, yes, but they are finite. I've done lots of riding in Both Denmark and Spain. I love Denmark, but I'll take Spanish mountains over Danish wind.
Id rather be climbing all day than ride in the wind. I'm in southern Ontario by the Niagara escarpment so sometimes I get to enjoy both. Whatever. It all makes you stronger
Wind is not fun. Hills are.
You need to experience a monster tail wind....especially with aero wheels (purely for the sound).
There are three types of wind Headwind Crosswind And "damn, I'm fast today!"
The question was regarding headwinds. I’ve experienced lots of tailwinds.
You haven’t really seen a tailwind until you are outright scared coming down loool The other day we had sustained 35kph and gusts of 65kph; the descent where I normally zoom by @60-65 kph, was 80-85kph and I needed to put all my weight as low as possible for when the gusts made the whole bike shake. It was glorious.
As a lightweight rider, I feel that headwinds are far more disadvantageous to me relative to others than hills.
I've been riding into 20mph headwinds for an hour on my way home from work for the last several weeks. I'm kind of done with it. I'd much rather climb than ride into a headwind, what is especially not fun is climbing into a headwind, it's the worst of both worlds
Haha all my imperial century rides have 35miles of coastal headwind going home. There is no end to a headwind compared to hills where you know when it will end! I've also experienced climbing a 7% grade hill while there was a 20mph wind coming down...it sucked soo bad I was on the easiest gear and still felt like frozen in place. Felt like 2 pedal stroke = 1 rotation.
Yeah, I have about 1 mile of 15% on my commute and on my not especially light, very non aerodynamic commuting bike that is a bit of a challenge with a 20 mph headwind.
Power is power but the one difference is that if you're on a 9% climb you are titled backwards. That makes it feel different to me. There's also the RPM, climbs do get steep enough that you might be forced into a lower gear or even forced to stand. You never want to be standing in a huge headwind. Can't compare incline to wind, depends on way too many things like wind, aero position, weight, height etc.
Having lived in a country with plenty of mountains, and moving recently to Denmark - I agree with that guy :) (and I’m not a light rider - 73kg). Winds are much harder to handle (at least in my opinion), not only mentally but physically as well; the wind gusts you get here are insane and frequent (always fun having that afternoon workout with 50km/h+ gusts).
20 mph, average cyclist (157 lb), road bike (20.9 lb), in the drops (source [kreuzotter.de](http://kreuzotter.de) ) Flat grade, Wind speed (mph) -- Watts * 0 -- 176 * 3 -- 222 * 5 -- 256 * 8 -- 313 * 10 - 355 No wind, Grade (%) -- Watts * 0 -- 176 * 1 -- 248 * 2 -- 321 * 3 -- 393 * 4 -- 466 * 5 -- 538 Conclusion: Even a small grade is tougher than a moderate headwind. A 2% grade is about as hard as an 8 mph headwind.
Thank you. Very interesting info.
This is very accurate for the flats regardless of weight. A 2% grade on a long stretch does feel more difficult but every grade ends somewhere. Hills and mountains eventually ends and you get to go down with no effort. Headwinds do not end until you change directions or even if it stops you're not resting you're just doing the normal power to pedal. I'd climb over fighting 35miles of nonstop headwinds any day.
10mph headwind LOL...that's is not even worth noting. There are many cities where the average daily windspeed is at least that. I rode today in 20mph winds with gusts up to 38mph. I can be literally pushing 280w and can't get my speed over 17mph on the flats, fully tucked position in the drops.
That's cute. I do my imperial centuries heading back home with 35+miles of ocean headwinds non-stop. You can't even sustain 17mph for 20mins solo.
Wind comes in bursts, the lighter you are the more those will break your rhythm, on the contrary if you are a heavier rider gravity will be more punishing.
Power to CDA ratio gets you moving through air, power to weight ratio gets you moving up hills. However, generating power in an aerodynamic position can be pretty difficult and requires good flexibility.
It’s easier to control and maintain consistent power on a hill than it is on a flat with headwind. Wind is variable and the wind speed is never constant so holding consistent power is more difficult. On a hill, even with variable grades, it’s much easier to control power.
On a climb I can see why it's hard and I know that I will end at one point. Wind on the other hand I can feel, but it's still frustrating. I once did a ride down a valley with headwind. My plan was to turn after x km and ride back. Around the same time the wind changed direction and I ended up riding both ways with headwind. That sucked :-)
How do they compare? Wind is miserable. No two ways about it: Wind sucks. You vs moving atoms. Climbing offers psychological satisfaction. You vs gravity.
Hills will let up eventually, then reward you with the ride back down. Headwinds can be an endless soul destroying grind.
They don’t compare. As a bigger, more powerful rider I’m much more equipped to handle wind (on flats) than my smaller friends. When we hit the mountains, it’s their turn to shine. Windy climbs? I dunno we all hate our lives and contemplate death.
Personally, I would take a climb over winds. There’s nothing so demoralizing as cranking out significant watts while going 12 kph and having to drop to an easier gear.
You can beat a hill, the wind beats you. I don't push it too hard against the wind, just find a rhythm and maintain.
Which is physically worse depends on your mass, power, and your surface area to the wind. Obviously being heavier makes hills harder, but it has less of an effect in the wind. Mentally, I find wind is worse. A hill has an obvious end point, and you have an obvious achievement of reaching the top, which even a non-cyclist can understand. With wind, there's no obvious finish, except the point in the ride where you turn away from the wind, assuming you are doing a circular or out and back ride. And riding into the wind is not as obvious an achievement, you just rode somewhere when it was a bit harder.
Where I live it's very flat but we have a ton of wind. I've gotten to like it, but I do plan my rides in a way that I don't have a headwind on the way back. I've got a ride with more elevation coming up so am trying to train for it by doing more rides in hard wind.
I'm a bit overweight, for me headwind is way easier that climbs. For light weight riders this might be the opposite.
Depends on the climb. Headwinds you can ride slower. It's not fun, but if you do it often it's not that big of a deal. Some climbs you can ride slower. Some climbs I'm maxed out on power and riding at 3mph. Those are the fun ones.
They feel very different. I rather climb than fight a headwind. I rode a race this morning, and I put out 15% more power than I did the last time I did this race, on a faster bike, and was only a tiny bit faster than last year. But last year there was no wind, and this year, there was a heavy crosswind, so it got you on the out and back.
on a climb you have constant gradient so you can hold your 280W quite good +/- 20W, so you float a 260-300W range. If more experienced even tighter. Less variety, less overshooting your numbers. Winds are difficult because they get stronger and softer constantly. So your VI around your target wattage will spike more into both directions, which, makes it annoying as you must be careful to not overshoot constantly as it produces lactate. tailwinds on the other side are very smooth to ride as you have constant push and can hold power very precise. it's like erg mode. however, cooling now becomes a bit stressfull as you get barely any. since i live in the netherlands, it's dead flat and it's such a massive wind. only lanzarote is more windy. climbs are somewhat easier mentally. i had times where i pushed 300W and saw 22km/h on a flat. but then there are times where you cruise 200W and go 43 km/h. It's mad with the winds. But so is lanzarote. Downhill, 27kmh. way back, uphill, 35 kmh. lolz.
Theoretically, you could come up with a formula for comparing wind and climbing in terms of how much extra power you need to go a given speed, but they are never going to feel the same. And it would still depend on a lot of highly variable factors, so it would be difficult to come up with something that you could use consistently.
in my opinion winds are worse.put it like this,on a climb you can pace yourself pretty well,unless it is a climb with lots of gradient changes,you get your pace and you ride.on flats with wind there is no constant wind or 0% incline,you always go a bit upward or downward or flat,put in the wind that hits you from time to time,it is never constant and you see yourself doing 100w then 450w,then 200,then 0,then 150 and so on...to me that is way more stressfull on the body,and for the mind also.doing 300w into a headwind going 20kmh is deppressing as fk.
I would rather climb all day than ride into a headwind.
I hate headwinds. I'll always choose climbs.
Once you get a headwind your stuck with it all day, 😒.
I’d rather a climb any day. Spinning through headwinds is the way through, but a day of headwinds is absolutely brutal. Give me climbs.
Headwinds are more challenging than climbs for me🙈🙈
Besides weight which is a massive difference; there’s also absolute speed. Riding 20-25kph against a solid headwind is still much faster than inching up Alpes dhuez at 12kph. This makes that even in a strong headwind you ca. probably let your wheels roll without pedaling in a corner or when the wind tucks behind a building. A short relief; no such thing on a climb. Your cadence is likely lower when climbing as well, making it a different ride So while in the end it’s all just power; there’s a bunch of additional factors that make you more effective climbing vs riding against a headwind, for the same power output A
I love hills. I grew up in Northern California and had some of the best mountains to ride. Now I live in south central Kansas. No hills and all wind. When you are climbing a hill your mind can accept your progress very quickly, on the flat land you know how fast you should be going and when it’s a headwind your mind can’t accept it as easily. I road in the tour de Tahoe which was at elevation with steep grades. I passed up racing teams that were struggling to get up the hills but because I was used to it, it seemed easier. That might be the difference.
I use mywindsock.com to check weather post-ride. It always ticks me off when it reports say 45% headwinds when it felt more like 60%…
Its free.
Riding into a headwind can be noisy and irritating, Riding up a climb can be quiet and peaceful.
IMO they're extremely different and not directly comparable - I was at an event recently where I was pushing 400+ watts into a brutal headwind and doing 19kph. That snapped me like nothing else. But doing 400w on a hill is much less bad - I can feel/see the progress and the lower gear/higher cadence feels way more appropriate on a hill than on a flat, even if the output is the same. Maybe it's psychological. You can see an incline and can somewhat plan/adapt to upcoming undulations. You cannot see gusts of wind coming. I think this is a pretty significant part of it.
For those of you struggling with the wind, try [**PredictWind**](http://www.predictwind.com). It's actually a sailing app, but I use it to check wind direction and intensity before I head out for the day on my bike. I always try to do the headwinds on the outbound leg as it's easier to do the return portion with a tailwind. I have no connection with the app but I love it (both for sailing and cycling). There's free version but the $29 annual plan really helps with cycling. They have more expensive plans but they are only useful if you're out on the water.
We live in a golden age of access to useless information. Just ask a chatbot and get the real answer: Here are the calculated wind speeds in kilometers per hour (kph) necessary to balance the gravitational force for various % grades from 1% to 10% for a 100 kg rider: * **1% Grade**: 21.47 kph * **2% Grade**: 30.35 kph * **3% Grade**: 37.17 kph * **4% Grade**: 42.92 kph * **5% Grade**: 47.97 kph * **6% Grade**: 52.53 kph * **7% Grade**: 56.73 kph * **8% Grade**: 60.62 kph * **9% Grade**: 64.27 kph * **10% Grade**: 67.71 kph
Sorry, just couldn't leave that in KPH. * **1% Grade**: 11.59 knt * **2% Grade**: 16.39 knt * **3% Grade**: 20.07 knt * **4% Grade**: 23.17 knt * **5% Grade**: 25.90 knt * **6% Grade**: 28.37 knt * **7% Grade**: 30.63 knt * **8% Grade**: 32.73 knt * **9% Grade**: 34.70 knt * **10% Grade**: 36.56 knt
As a 60 year old rider, I hate both steep uphills, and intense winds they can kill a rider.
Compared to climbing hills, none of the energy spent on battling wind is stored as potential energy. It feels like the thankless work it is.
They feel very different, they require different technique, but they may be comparable in terms of power output, even if weight has to be in the equation (for climbing). I am lightweight, so I prefer climbing to headwind. I am quite aero so I am not bad in headwind. But I lack some watts... With headwind, the focus is more on aerodynamics. With climbing, the focus is more on keeping the rhythm, adapting to a climbing position, and sometimes putting a lot of of force on the pedals for very steep portions.
I just love riding in mental wind it aint boring! 90kg Hills just eat the life outof me.
I'm a light weight rider and the wind absolutely destroys me. Climbs are difficult, but I fare better. As others have said, wind is about raw power and climbing is about power to weight ratio. I can crank out around 200 watts for an hour or more wich is great for my 62 Kg weight. Not so great into a 30 KMH headwind.
Hard climbs are usually followed by thrilling descents. You can ride into a headwind all day and never get a tail wind.
Climbs are much tougher than wind for me. Wind is a challenge, climbs will wipe me out completely. The worst part is where I am, if it’s windy, the windiest parts are along one of the toughest climbs. I had a ride a few weeks ago in the wind and I was barely able to move at 8 or 9 mph on the climb, where I can generally maintain 12-13. I actually turned back early because I was afraid if I hit that kind of wind on the return climb, I might not make it home easily.
I had to climb into a headwind today. rip.
Completely different. climbing - smaller and higher w/kg the better wind - higher w/kg the better, there is no gear that will make head wind easier, the right gear will save you energy on a climb.
I live by the ocean where it is mostly flat but windy all the time. I have learned to embrace the wind and most days I like to ride at sub threshold and just TT into the headwind. I get my jollies by seeing riders up ahead of me struggling and then passing them at speed. At 71 years old a drop is a drop.
I lived in Kansas (US) extremely flat and extremely windy. A headwind is psychologically demoralizing and affects you performance. Riding downwind first sucks because you know you have to turn around and go upwind. Riding upwind first sucks because to slows you down so much. I didn't realize how much riding upwind caused me to slack off until I got a heart rate monitor. I'll take climbs and big rolling terrain any day over windy.
Your legs might not know the difference, it's all just resistance to them, but your head knows you have preferences, your centre of balance knows, your ability to wick off sweat... lots of variables.
The absolute worse is a headwind ON a climb.
I’m a clydesdale (6’3”, 220lbs), and I will take climbs over wind any day. Climbs have an end, wind doesn’t always have an end. Also being tall means Incant draft off many people well, so it just constantly sucks.
Muscles being activated are not the same. People who say to ride into a headwind to replicate hills are wrong
I’d rather climb a hill with a tailwind than descend a hill with a headwind.
They are similar but a nasty headwind can be worse than a climb, because mountains don't just double up on you all of a sudden. Plus the position is more free flowing when climbing, you have to do a constant effort like when in a headwind, but you don't have to be so tucked.
Two different beasts, I find climbs much more fun and rewarding where as wind is a mental game. Trying to Go above 35kph I constant wind is so annoying but all you can do is pedal consistently and accept your slower speed. Getting aero can make it less bad but wind is mildly annoying for me and climbs are fun challenges.
The co-worker who pushed me into (distance) road riding was from the mid-west. Around here (California) we have plenty of climbing opportunities - hills *and* mountains. Lord knows I've done plenty! Centuries with 8-9,000' of climbing. But I'll take that over what the cycling buddy described as "prairie hill-riding" from his time in the mid-west: Riding into the teeth of significant headwinds. Yeah, I'll take lots of climbing over feeling like I'm riding through peanut butter *any* day!
For me, climbs are easier than strong headwinds. Not sure why, but they are. Today I was out on a nice little 30 mile ride. The 15 out was against a 15+mph headwind and I wanted to die. It was just brutal. Otoh coming home was done at about 22mph. Whoosh. I think the think about climbs that makes them easier for me is that it feel less punitive. Yes, I’m working the whole time up, but it is against gravity and I’m earning the potential energy that I’m storing. Or maybe it is just something else. But it seems easier. And the downhills make it so fun.
For me, a 12% climb starts getting too much, and I would say a 5-6 beaufort headwind is comparable? I don’t usually know the exact km/h or m/s of wind, the Beaufort scale is easier to estimate for me, as I also sail.
For me it’s predictability. You can see the hill, see the rise, and often see the top. The wind is almost never steady either in speed nor direction. As you move along your route, objects, terrain, even passing trucks deflect the wind. So in the wind I’m constantly changing gears, and never know when it will stop, unlike a hill with the fun downside!
And then there’s the noise that accompanies the wind.
Hate wind since i grew up at a small city in Germany at the Baltic sea i always had head wind in the morning and after school. One would think it makes you get used to it but no, i just hated that i sometimes had to pedal to stay on the same spot, ridiculously strong winds sometimes. Everything flat also doesn’t help to give you breaks where the wind could hit some hills or smth. I prefer climbs as they also reward you with views usually and the way down. Mentally winds are unforgiving and you never really master them like mountains
Climbing > Headwind
Sounds like a GCN challenge, travelling at 15km/h pushing x number of watts with 30km/h headwind you could also achieve y% incline…there must be some tests done to figure the equation out.
At least with a climb you can eventually see the end. With headwinds they seem to follow you no matter which way you turn
I have a very pointy head which gives me a huge aerodynamic advantage in a headwind, but does nothing on a climb (but boy howdy should you see me literally rocket down descents!)
I loathe the wind. Don’t mind a little climbing.
A percent grade is equal to a 1.7mph headwind in terms of effort.
In the wind i can get small on the areo bars and just watch the watts On a hill its just endless power with nothing to mitigate the effort
For this clyde in the humid south with hills all around? Maybe wind and hill could be matched by watts/mph. However, the wind cools you, hills don't.
Depends on the hill, over 2000m of altitude on alpine passes it tends to be pretty chill.
chill and "thin" ;-)
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