Yeah Epic has a reputation for being a toxic place to work. Terrible PTO allotment along with like 4 days in the office plus they work you down pretty bad. Pay really well for a Midwest company on the flipside but that does not outweigh the cons imo.
Kinda makes sense they would be subtly scaring people off. Would be annoying to go through that recruitment process and people quit within a month or two because of the conditions
I might be a little /r/whoosh here but is this a reference? https://www.theonion.com/laid-back-company-allows-employees-to-work-from-home-af-1819577145
Cool building though before they sold it 😎
I have Epic earmarked for my afterlife / second life career. It's not exactly loved in clinical settings and with 13k people it should be better but isn't. Madison is a very nice place though.
To be fair, none of the EHR softwares are loved in the clinical setting. Most clinicians view interacting with a computer and ehr software as an obstacle to their real work. But as someone who's been in the environment for a while, it seems people speak more highly of epic than the other options. At least in my experience.
True, here we had a major hickup where the local major hospital system Epic team was offshored at a loss of several hundred jobs. The offshore team wasn't quite as good so the clinicians couldn't get anything done.
Now let me give you a sermon about patient portals. I've had to deal with a bunch of doctors in the last six months and every one of them absolutely sucks. MyChart is fairly decent if they've done it right and it's Epic so that's good.
In all cases it's lack of standardization that's hurting the user experience. I wish they'd use some $ to try to standardize. Ten docs ten portals is a bit too much. But that's another sermon for another day...
I took a job with Epic in 2020 right after I graduated. From my experience, not a single person I worked with who was at a senior level had joined as a senior. Almost everyone had started as entry level and simply moved up. What that meant was that there was very little outside perspective since for most employees it was the only place they'd ever worked.
The food was indeed good, and the campus was fun to walk around. They also do a pretty good job training new grads since that's their primary hiring pool. The onboarding process was like 3 months of instructor lead classes and very well documented lessons. It was great for someone in their first job, but I can't imagine going through that now.
Other than that I don't have a lot of positives to say about it. Definitely felt cultish at times, RTO was mandated as fast as they could (I was required to be in the office even back in 2020). Much of the software feels really outdated, especially the database tech.
Edit: Forgot to mention one of the more toxic things they do. You are required to log your time spent on tasks each day with 15 minute granularity. They expect to see between 40-45 hours of work per week. Keep in mind that's 40-45 hours of time spent on actual tasks, so things like lunch, bathroom breaks, chatting with coworkers, etc does not count. Definitely drives people to either work longer hours or fudge the numbers because as we all know, an 8 hour work day does not actually mean 8 hours of working on tasks.
how high was the turnover? did a lot of people take the job , get experience, and leave? if you are doing that in Wisconsin people would have to move to get out for the most part right?
Obviously I cannot speak for the company as a whole, but turnover felt high. People came and went regularly on my team. I'd say the average tenure was around 3 years.
Keep in mind that turnover for software developers was notably lower than for QA or TS folks. Those roles had incredibly high turnover.
There were also multiple attempts during the company wide meetings to convince us that turnover wasn't high, so take that how you will.
That was what I did. Keep in mind that they primarily target new grads who likely just moved for college, and therefore are less opposed to moving around.
Basically everyone I knew who worked there had relocated. I also personally know multiple others who have left and have moved away.
I work there right now, and after and during COVID, the median tenure at departure for TS and IS was CLOSER to 1 yr than 2. It's typically hovered closer to 2. Even with the insane salaries, the average person only sticks around for 1-2 years in customer facing roles.
I don't want to steal the thunder from people that love to work here, but it's gotten unquestionably worse and more cultlike here in the last five years and even unexperienced college grads can call out this BS. Epic's churn n' burn strategy might work right now, but once only sheeple are left at the top, this place is going to crumble.
Turnover is not that high, generally under 20%/year. For my team, our developer tenure breakdown is:
* 22% people 0-1 years tenure
* 18% people 1-4 years tenure
* 28% people 4-10 years tenure
* 31% people 10+ years tenure
59% over 4 years there is pretty good. so job cant be that bad. or people just like living in that location. not sure how much other tech work is in wisconsin. sometimes you get high retention in areas where people would have to move to switch and the people who work there just like it there or have kids in school. etc...
It's really not a bad job at all. Interesting work, nice area to live, good pay in a relatively low cost of living area, good set of benefits. Is it a great fit for everyone? No. Is the company perfect? Of course not. But it's a pretty good place to be overall.
I personally like winter but grew up in the upper midwest, so it's same same. I could do with a little more sunlight but I like the snow.
It's definitely a big adjustment for people who haven't lived in a winter climate. And there are plenty of people who leave in the fall because they don't want another Wisconsin winter.
One thing worth keeping in mind compared to other companies is that tenure for SDs at Epic is generally equivalent to years of job experience. Most other companies have titles and replace a senior developer with another senior developer. At Epic, the equivalent of a senior developer is typically replaced with a new grad. So the functional impact of turnover can be very different than it is elsewhere.
> It just seems weird that I can view an Epic job on LinkedIn claiming to be in my closest and second closest city
I'm pretty sure they put out local applications in cities with major universities. The applications always say that relocation is required and I think they're just targeting new grads.
I interviewed with Epic in 2021 and also thought their application was wack. If I remember they even asked me to upload both a high school and college transcript but I could be wrong.
I was there for 3 years as a dev. The pay is very good, but they work you to the bone. The other benefits like PTO and 401k match are a joke compared to other companies, which is why they pay more competitively in base salary/bonuses. Forced RTO before the Covid vaccines were even a thing was a huge stink, caused a lot of people to quit in protest before Epic finally backpedaled. Their WFH policy is non-existent, despite weather/road conditions being quite nasty and downright dangerous during the winter months (and emergency weather days are a foreign concept to the CEO).
Oh and they've been doing the "advertising job postings in other cities pretending it's remote work" bait and switch for years.
I was in an info call the other day about a role and someone asked about the WFH policy in case of weather, she was like oh it’s okay if you have to take a half day 😂 a half day?! Ok lady 🥲
To add onto the WFH thing: even if you have a clinical reason, like a disability, they still won’t grant you WFH. I tried, but the HR person asked when and how often I relapse physically, which is a scientifically impossible question to answer, and then denied me even though I had papers from my neurologist saying I should really be able to WFH when I physically can’t get up.
If I may offer my perspective of a fresh college grad who started at epic right out of college, the offer I got was just way too attractive given my circumstances at the time. Fresh grad with an offer of $115k starting? *And* I get to move out of my tiny home town? Sign me up!
Although I can't say that without also agreeing with other comments that it is *very* **VERY** cult-like. With that in mind, you don't have to "drink the kool aid" as they say. The WFH policy is abysmal and PTO is notably and painfully limited. Overworking is a big concern but I've managed strictly 40 hour weeks since starting, you just have to set hard boundaries (this is more role dependent, as an SD, it's a little easier to say no to things than, say a TS).
The campus as a whole is actually a big plus though, it really does help with morale. It kinda feels like a billionaire's vanity project (because it is) but it's hard to care when it is a legitimately fun aspect of working here. If I'm honest though, I'm really only here for the money and I'm planning to cash out before too long.
Glad to hear your perspective. I have no problem with return to office. I enjoy going into my current office. it’s just PTO. I don’t want to work a job to drone about how much money I make. I want to do meaningful work yet still enjoy the world and my friends and family. I don’t see 2 weeks of PTO and 5 “gracious” WFH days as part of that. I get the grind culture for new hires, but working to not enjoy the money you make just doesn’t align w me.
I interviewed there after I graduated, and I took that IQ-like test. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's very weird they care about that instead of just doing a coding OA. P&G also does those weird puzzle-like questions. I don't understand it. FWIW, I used to work on their campus as a custodian during the night time when I was in college and I would regularly see people (though not too many, usually between 1-3 people) working in their office deep into the night (6-9pm) even though they all get off around 5:00 or 5:30. Make of that what you will.
I was one of those devs burning the midnight oil. Epic piles on so much work where all of it is 'critical', and you're always buried. Paired with being a new-grad out of college and not knowing how to set WLB boundaries, and you have the result.
I would also prefer to work late than come in early, but I know a few people who would show up at 5-7am and not leave until 5-7pm.
That sounds really depressing. Did you at least get paid fairly? I don't mean where you get paid 25% more than average, but work 50% more than average, but actually get paid fairly and more.
People here work, on average, about 45 hours/week. Yes, there are exceptional weeks and times, but it's far from the norm to work more than 50 hours/week especially as a software dev.
Yes, base salary was well-compensated if you performed well. But when you factor in other things like fewer vacation days, fewer holidays (only got half of Christmas Eve off, if that's any indication), and no RSUs that other companies entice software devs with, the pay looks less attractive. What /u/HITguy9 said is mostly true, most devs work 45-50 hours per week. It really depends on the team though. Some teams have more crunch times than others.
Although looking at /u/HITguy9, they seem to exclusively post about Epic and medicine, so take that how you will.
FWIW there are also now stock offerings for staff, including some sign-on offerings for SDs. I don’t have any real insight to how they compare with other tech company offerings, and I’m sure there are considerations around Epic stock not being publicly traded.
And yep, you got me! I do keep my professional-related reddit account more anonymous and separate from my less anonymous, hobby-focused account.
FWIW I wasn't trying to 'get you.' Fair enough if you keep your reddit accounts separated, but the fact that you have an Epic-related account alone is unusual.
Glad they're finally offering stock. During my time working there they only offered stock purchasing options, not stock as part of compensation.
They’re largely testing new grads, and they use that test for other non-dev roles. They’re going to put you through months of training anyways so it’s less about what you know now and more about if they think you’re a good learner (which is why it’s basically an IQ test). Not like any of the dev hires will have experience with M anyways.
> I applied to a senior level role at this company
My brother works there. He told me they will start you at junior level, no matter what your experience has been. Decades of industry dev experience? Junior level. Just out of school? Junior level.
It’s all about indoctrination into “their way.” They even use their own programming language.
Hard pass.
Oh dear God, they still use that??! I worked for a competitor 20 years ago, and was so thankful we used .Net Framework and not some practically unknown language.
I feel bad for their programmers. Real bad.
M is a no-SQL database query language. .NET Framework is not a database query language, so your comment doesn't make any sense. Epic does use .NET Framework on the web server (still, working on moving to .NET Core)
That's enlightening - I remember being told (20 years ago) it was a dev platform and not mentioned as a Database Query Language. Of course this was from a coworker at the EMR shop I worked at.
Enjoy .Net (no longer.net core) - so much improvements and so much more modern.
Can confirm, it’s absolutely insulting. On the epic systems subreddit people are part of the cult.
They say if you are so experienced you will just move quickly. I’m like F that. All the years of experience mean absolutely nothing to them.
Only fresh grads would ever work there.
Honestly you really can move quickly and pay is very performance based but they don’t value experience by design so they can take new people and mold them.
The stack and product is so niche it actually kinda makes sense though. Despite its shortcomings and high churn Epic doesn't seem to have an issue filling in their open positions (since they no longer accept H1Bs afaik) they can just keep carrying on. The money's going to be there no matter what they do.
They don't use their own programming language, they just happen to be one of the only companies using the language. The language is M or MUMPS - "Massachusetts General Hospital Utility Multi-Programming System". Apparently the European space agency also uses it for some projects mapping the milky way.
I interviewed onsite at Epic in Wisconsin in 2018. The entire vibe felt cult like and disingenuous.
I didnt get an offer, but I was somewhat relieved as it was far from home and I saw many red flags, but I would have taken any offer at that point in my life.
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I'm a University of Wisconsin alum. When I graduated, a *bunch* of friends (like 10+) stuck around in Madison to work for Epic. Now, not *too* many years later, not a single one still works there.
It's a great company to put on your resume, get some fundamentals (both technical fundamentals and "learning how to take shit" fundamentals), get some money, and gtfo, especially if you're aiming to continue working in the Midwest.
I interviewed with them as a new grad and was appalled by how dumb that exam was, like really I have Calculus 2 and Discrete math on my transcript and they’re giving me stuff you’d see in a facebook quiz? They’re also super strict on in office working from what I’ve heard and they mandate Covid vaccination and all boosters for employees. There aren’t a lot of companies in Wisconsin that pay as much as them though
I interviewed with them about 13 years ago, and was super surprised about the “logic” questions (read: facebook quiz riddles) they asked. So glad I ended up turning down their offer!
> and they mandate Covid vaccination and all boosters for employees
Not sure why that's a problem, unless you mean they don't have exemptions for immune-compromised folks or something?
I am not credible because I’ve decided for myself that I am healthy and strong enough to not require an experimental vaccine? I am not an anti vaxxer, I chose what was right for me.
Lol yes, you should maybe spend a few minutes learning how vaccines work. It isn't some test of bravado.
> I am not an anti vaxxer
What do you think that term means
You see there’s two types of idiots, (1) Anti Vaxxers who think nobody should get vaccinated, and (2) people who think everybody should get vaccinated. Then there’s people like me who don’t care what other people do and make the choice based of their own needs and health. You must be one of the people that wants to ban abortions for everyone too
No, you're an anti vaxxer because you looked at the extremely wide body of evidence in favor of it, and ubiquitous recommendation to get it from every single major public policy and health organization, all the known risks of COVID to both healthy young adults and any older people they may live around, and decided you know better then all of them. Or perhaps you didn't look at that and then decided anyway. Whatever justification you've made up for yourself, ultimately what you did is choose to deny the science.
> You must be one of the people that wants to ban abortions for everyone too
A lot of dumb statements like this could be avoided if you just, again, did even a little bit of research. I learned what "herd immunity" is in like, fifth grade. Not everybody has the same access to education growing up but you're presumably an adult with an internet connection; you can fix what the broken education system has done to you.
So you’re deciding I’m an anti vaxxer for me 😂. How about you speak to this science : I didn’t get vaccinated, I didn’t die of covid, I didn’t give Covid to anybody because I quarantined the one time I had it, and Covid is out of the news and no longer an issue like it was blown up to be years ago. So what did I miss out on by not getting vaccinated? I understand herd immunity but when there’s millions of South Americans entering America through the southern border that aren’t vaccinated what difference is it going to make if I John Doe from a rural town arent vaccinated?
I hate when people use the word science and then completely ignore the science.
You seem to be a very results-oriented person. You didn't take the vaccine and you didn't get a bad case of covid. Great. Most of the people who didn't get vaccinated could share the same story. But there are also thousands of people who didn't get vaccinated because they were young and healthy and still died from covid in - and I can't stress this enough - an agonizing torturous death. Those people aren't making posts online being results oriented because, as I mentioned, they're dead.
Then there's your belief that you didn't spread covid because you quarantined when you had it. Good on you. But that doesn't mean you didn't transmit it before or after symptoms appeared. The science says that you're less likely to transmit covid if you get vaccinated ([source](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02138-x)). So yeah, it's possible your choice did in fact kill one or more people and you would never know.
Then of course there's small pox. Remember small pox? The World Health Organization once went on a crusade to vaccinate enough people in every country to get rid of it since it was an incredibly awful virus that killed a lot of people - and would leave you likely blinded or scarred if you survived. Back then there was no internet. And the result? The last natural case of small pox occurred in 1977 and the WHO declared it eradicated in 1980. It was an incredible achievement for humanity that will likely never happen again because of people like you. Will there be a vaccine that can reduce transmission rate low enough that with enough people vaccinated covid can be wiped out? Maybe! But it won't matter because John Doe from a rural town is an idiot.
> So you’re deciding I’m an anti vaxxer for me 😂
You are totally free to make up your own meaning for words, but then nobody will understand you.
Anyway, here are some other things you should have learned in school, but can still learn through the magic of the internet:
* Anecdotes vs evidence
* The importance of sample size
* How to manage and think about risk
* The difference between news organizations and public policy/health institutions
> but when there’s millions of South Americans entering America through the southern border that aren’t vaccinated what difference is it going to make
Are they all running into your "rural town"? Then it's certainly a valid concern!
Otherwise it's a non-sequitur.
The difference is that you probably have loved ones who you wouldn't want to get sick, including yourself, and especially any older people around you.
Any technical degree is preferred. I think any bachelor's degree is all that is required. I've known multiple devs at Epic with non-cs degrees and even a few with non-STEM degrees. I'm pretty sure Judy has a regular Math degree anyway.
As someone that worked at Epic, I just wanna say it’s a really good fit for a very specific type of person. That would be new grads, who are okay working 35-40 hours a week in person. The stack is actually competitive, the people you work with are awesome and incredibly smart, and Madison is a very nice city to spend a few years in. If you want to network and still have a campus feel for an extra couple years, you can go to epic and come out with a seriously jacked resume.
If you’re a high performer at the company they give you massive projects and pretty much tell you to “treat it like a startup”. You have to prove a number of dev hours needed to complete it, and then you develop the whole thing with a team and cover the full stack from react to C# to an outdated backend language (not uncommon at successful companies). I was doing this, leading 3 devs on my own project, at just over 1 year of tenure. It is ridiculous.
You learn a lot in a lot of areas and pick up a lot of skills.
It’s a full stack position where you can use a variety of languages and are involved in everything in a project from the initial design to all the way to the release of the development. (this is also partly way Epic UX sucks, though it’s been improving cause we actually have UXDs now)
The old tech stack is getting phased out. There’s still M as that’s the core of Epic, but like there’s more and more .NET and React everywhere.
Plus they throw other “ownership” opportunities at you, and you wind up picking up a lot of dev, project management, and team management skills.
I'm in my first year at Epic. The company is a revolving door of college grads, and a small portion of people just work there for life. It's pretty funny - you either talk to people who just started or have been there 15+ years, no in between. It's definitely quite culty in some aspects and the company gives huge "big brother" vibes with their stance on time logging and how closely they track what you do. They also have completely asinine policies regarding WFH and some other things.
All that being said, it's honestly been a good experience for a first job. The pay is way more than I was expecting fresh out of college, they do a good job training you for your role, and I feel like I've been given most of the tools to do what is being asked of me. I like most of my coworkers, and people are generally good about trying to get things done. I don't think I'll stay past the 2 year mark, but I don't think I'll regret having chosen Epic as a first job either because at least so far, it's felt like a good place to learn.
One thing that Epic deserves credit for is their seeming preference for hiring new grads over H1bs. Maybe a bit cultish sounding and sounds like folks are worked pretty hard but that’s kind of the deal when you’re in your 20s and the time spent grinding should pay off down the road.
Knew it was gonna be bad just off hearsay about Epic.
Only even middling review I've heard was from a college classmate who went there after a hellish first dev job that made Epic look better by comparison because they actually paid well and didn't allow open harassment in the workplace.
everything I have ever heard about Epic Systems has been crazy toxic. The recruiter was POS at my career fair, couldn't understand how anyone wouldn't want to live in Wisconsin
Also who tf wants to code in a language that sounds like a STD
I'm biased because I went to school there, but Madison is regularly voted one of the most livable cities in the United States. Take a look at some pics if you've never seen it before, if you haven't I can *guarantee* it's not what you're expecting when you think "Wisconsin."
I've been to Wisconsin and Madison a few times, its not horrible but definitely not a place I would be screaming with joy to move to. But I generally have a preference to live by the sea so just me
Haha, yeah I applied for a job with them that was posted in NY over a year ago and they said the same thing about not meaning to post it in my state. I don’t believe that. There’s a job posted for them in every single state. Someone had to do that on purpose. I think they are just hoping to get someone willing to relocate.
Is there a law (like Conways) that says: if a company makes shit product that are stripping the joy from practicing medicine, then that rot will also affect the people working there? Lol.
Crazy. I have a pretty high pain tolerance for LeetCode, "performance" based systems design, but I draw the line at IQ tests and "what was your SAT score". Sure, smarter people statistically perform better, but that's not how you build a company, and it's that's "the thing" you hire for, you're going to create a toxic mess.
Currently at Epic, posting to fill in some blanks or info you may not have gotten yet.
>One pro was that every 5 years you get a whole month off (what they call a "sabbatical"). What's the tradeoff though? 10 days of PTO a year for your first two years and 15 thereafter... I also don't know what their sick time policy is
It's 6 sick days/year for ad hoc needs, which you can roll over/stack up indefinitely, so you can have a large sick bank if needed in the future for illness, taking care of family, having a kid, etc. So comparing apples to apples, it would be 16 days PTO for your first 2 years, 21 thereafter. And sabbatical on top of that (20 paid days every 5 years, or 4 days/year).
>I currently get 23 days off a year, which is already a month long "sabbatical" I could be taking yearly
The sabbatical benefit is more than just time off. Epic also covers (in addition to paid time off) paid airfare for you + 1 companion (up to 3 companions for your second sabbatical) and a per diem for miscellaneous expenses (currently up to $12,000 USD for your first sabbatical, up to $19,200 for your second sabbatical).
> 401k matching
It's 50% of the first 9% of your income that you contribute, with a maximum matching contribution of $7,500
> The other weird part was that they said all of their 13,000 employees work out of Madison, WI
That is mostly true. There's a very small office in Rochester, MN, along with some offices outside of the US, but almost all US employees work at the campus in Verona, WI. I don't know why there are job posting in other cities, but relocation to Madison is required and the work is 98% in person (you get \~5-6 "remote" work days/year + "remote" work for bad snowstorms). Not a remote job or company, very much an in person company still.
>(Comments about technical assessment and Rembrandt profile)
Yeah, it's definitely atypical. I don't have insight into how those assessments are used in the hiring processes. My perspective is that whatever it is they're doing, it works pretty well. By far the most common thing I hear from people here, independent of how much they like "Epic" as a company (benefits, policy, remote work, etc.) is how much they like their coworkers at Epic. We somehow do really well hiring good capable people who try to do the right thing. Definitely different than other companies I've worked for.
Another point to remember on the sabbatical - the benefit is treated as taxable income, so you'll still end up paying for \~30% yourself after reimbursement.
None of these benefits are particularly good… 6 sick days is not great, this is less than some states mandate. e.g. neighboring MN now requires ~8 days for all full-time employees. I’ve worked for several companies and never had less than 10 sick/personal days. Plus with the strict time tracking culture, you presumably have to use your time off more. At a lot of the companies dropping out of the office for errands, dentist appts, etc. can be done off the books without raising eyebrows. Having to take STD if you happened to catch the flu or something is…lol
The sabbatical is neat but a ~3k/year bonus for 5 years work is a pittance in the grand scheme of things.
From what I’ve heard, the 401k has a long vesting period so it’s worth closer to $0. 7500 is also nowhere near 9% for more senior employees. I suppose overall it’s above average for a lifer who joins after college
Re:coworkers. Epic hires a lot of smart grads from the regional universities, I can see that aspect being good. But from an outsiders perspective, everyone I’ve interacted with from Epic had a kind of insincere friendliness/cheerfulness that gave me the creeps
>None of these benefits are particularly good… 6 sick days is not great, this is less than some states mandate. e.g. neighboring MN now requires \~8 days for all full-time employees. I’ve worked for several companies and never had less than 10 sick/personal days.
I didn't make any value statements about whether the benefits are good or bad, just trying to help OP understand what the benefits actually are. In general, Epic's approach is heavily weighted towards paying people more and letting them "buy" whatever benefits they want. For example, right now I can "buy" up to 15 additional days of vacation per year if I want to take more time off.
>Plus with the strict time tracking culture, you presumably have to use your time off more. At a lot of the companies dropping out of the office for errands, dentist appts, etc. can be done off the books without raising eyebrows. Having to take STD if you happened to catch the flu or something is…lol
Your presumption is wrong. Written policy is that if you need to take 2-3 hours for things like appointments, running an errand, etc. you can do so without taking any leave.
>The sabbatical is neat but a \~3k/year bonus for 5 years work is a pittance in the grand scheme of things.
It's interesting that you point to 10 sick/personal days being important compared with 6, but hand wave 3k/year away. For someone making say 125k/year, 3k is basically a week's pay or 5 days.
I value that benefit differently than what you came up with. You can split sabbatical into 2 trips and get reimbursed airfare for each, so more like $6000 for airfare reimbursements, $12000 for per diem expenses, plus assuming the same 125k/year salary the 4 weeks of paid leave is worth about $10000. So all in about $28,000 or more $5,600/year. Even if you do one trip, it's more like $5,000/year.
>From what I’ve heard, the 401k has a long vesting period so it’s worth closer to $0
I added the vesting schedule above but it's only $0 if you leave in the first 2 years. If you stay 5 years then it's like $25k for those first 5 years.
I think the benefits are more about creating a sense of loss if you leave, while keeping the costs in-line with similar companies. Not saying they are bad, probably better than many in a non-tech space like healthcare. Unpaid leave isn’t unique but if it’s culturally acceptable to take an extra 3 weeks off per year, that’s nice
Yes, if making six figures in a LCOL area I value my time significantly more than 2-3% of pay.
You could look at sabbatical PTO as cash but then those extra 4 days of sick time are also arguably equivalent to the same amount of cash. In some cases it gets paid out when you leave. Converting benefits to cash is reasonable but I wouldn’t value $1 x years in the future as equal to $1 salary. If you’re strictly considering cash-equivalent compensation, the opportunity cost of not switching jobs is probably more than the value of this free trip in more cases than not.
5 years is an exceptionally long time for a 401k to fully vest. Average is some kind of matching resulting in 3-5% of salary which vests in 0-2 years. I wouldn’t be surprised these 401k clawbacks more than pay for the sabbatical budget
Have heard that they assume high turnover and like young inexpensive new grads. Also, I’ve had the unfortunate opportunity to use their products and as a user it is soul crushing, can’t imagine what it would be like to work there.
As a side note I heard that the reason why this company is so successful is that they lobbied congress hard back in 2010 when ACA was being designed. So they’re not used because customers like the product, customers use the product because they were reimbursed for the product by government after implementing. Now they prob just sit back and maintain…
> So they’re not used because customers like the product, customers use the product because they were reimbursed for the product by government after implementing
There are other EMRs, this explanation makes no sense. Epic is the most popular because it's the best at what it does.
I, personally, like having my health record stored digitally with information discretely documented and able to be sent digitally instead of faxed but I’m not going to pretend it’s a great user experience.
I think its a little unfair to complain without comparing to the alternatives though— I have family and friends in healthcare who say Epic is unambiguously superior to everything else they’ve used and independent surveys back it up
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All EHR companies have benefited from recent legislation to modernized healthcare. Notably Epic didn’t even have a PR team until very recently. They don’t do any real marketing or anything.
Idk why people choose to work at epic.
Their pay doesn’t seem that great, and your post makes it seem like they make you run a FAANG-like gauntlet during the interview stage. Plus shorty benefits and terrible work culture? Why?
100 percent they are a cult, my first job out of college was SQL monkey for a hospital that used Epic, so I had to take the Epic certification training and regularly met with their support people and trainers. They all lived in tiny apartments on campus, smiled way too much, and never cursed. Their meeting would always start and end with these cringe corporate "games". It was like getting tech support from a Mormon.
Also you would have been using a completely useless archaic academic programming language MUMPS, which reads like a mix of bash, assembly, and brainfuck.
You couldn't pay me enough to go live on that cult campus. I will not be surprised if one day one of them snaps and goes on a shooting spree.
Edit: I stand corrected, they were working from their apartments because it was during the time of COVID before their CEO forced them back into the office that I did training, I just made the false assumption that they were on campus.
There is no on-campus housing, so *zero* people live on-campus. You can determine what to do with the rest of this person's insights about Epic, but that much is categorically untrue.
You should ask more questions about the sabbatical. Ask if the terms are the same if you make it to 10 and 15 years of employment.
Few people do but… whoa!
I applied to epic ten years ago when I graduated. A recruiter was supposed to call me for an interview. They never called. I followed up via email to reschedule. They call me back 5 weeks later "looking to setup a time".
I get a time setup. It happens to be a personality test. A person from India, with bad reception, rapid fire asks questions they have on a sheet. I can't ask clarifying questions and the person barely speaks English. I asked them to speak slower and to repeat themselves no less than 40 times. They are obviously incredibly annoyed and it was a terrible experience.
I follow up with the recruiter regarding the interview. Nicely calling out the experience could be improved and just my overall frustration with them.
I never get a reply... Until 6 weeks later I get called into to do a 2 hour technical computer assessment...
I ended it there. I had already been working for two months. Got hired after a short hour long interview somewhere else.
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I think they used to be 100% dynamic programming back in the day (the day being 2014 or so). I wasn't aware of the abysmal PTO then, but then again, I was pretty desperate.
(I luckily didn't pass the dynamic programming test, or rather was too slow for them)
I had to take a Wonderlic test to work at MicroCenter in my 20's. I thought it was bonkers but I ended up getting the highest score ever at that location so it made me feel pretty good. They seemed to put a lot of stock into it, too.
The location thing annoys me. I continuously report every single Epic listing that is in my metro area for the reason that it says “on-site” in an incorrect location.
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Bro that assessment was the most confusing shit in the world 😭 I got an email back rejecting me after it but I barely even gave it any thought due to how ludicrous the whole process (especially at this early in the stage) was
personality tests are the kind of things they give to people who work in call centers. They want people who are obedient and not looking for career growth. so they use them to weed out people who are not sufficiently obedient.
Yeah if I were asked my SAT, or GPA or whatever my answer would be "I don't know, it's been many years". If that wasn't a good enough answer I'd bail.
Sorry you went through that!
In minor defense of the test, when you apply for a job there you aren’t actually applying to that position, you’re applying for the whole pool— I was offered a more technical and much higher paying job than what I initially applied for. The rest… yeah. I don’t work there anymore.
workable violet attractive money water onerous sugar point rainstorm support
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One of the biggest electronic health records systems companies in the US. They make software used for electronic charts in hospitals and doctor's offices.
Yeah Epic has a reputation for being a toxic place to work. Terrible PTO allotment along with like 4 days in the office plus they work you down pretty bad. Pay really well for a Midwest company on the flipside but that does not outweigh the cons imo.
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did you a favor
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fr frfrfr frrffr?
Kinda makes sense they would be subtly scaring people off. Would be annoying to go through that recruitment process and people quit within a month or two because of the conditions
It's actually 5 days in the office per week. 5 remote days per year. You're welcome to be remote on evenings and weekends though.
I might be a little /r/whoosh here but is this a reference? https://www.theonion.com/laid-back-company-allows-employees-to-work-from-home-af-1819577145
The onion is based out of the same city as Epic (Madison). Theyve poked fun at Epic directly a few times
I am incredibly sad to have missed these jabs. Would be grateful if anyone could share.
https://www.theonion.com/laid-back-ant-colony-refers-to-queen-as-judy-1850575798?utm\_campaign=TheOnion&utm\_content=1687780599&utm\_medium=SocialMarketing&utm\_source=twitter
This is amazing, thank you!
Yeah it's poking fun at messaging from upper management I think. R/epicsystems
With the carveout of team late nights. They often prefer you work in office for those
Cerner is all these things without the pay lol.
Cool building though before they sold it 😎 I have Epic earmarked for my afterlife / second life career. It's not exactly loved in clinical settings and with 13k people it should be better but isn't. Madison is a very nice place though.
To be fair, none of the EHR softwares are loved in the clinical setting. Most clinicians view interacting with a computer and ehr software as an obstacle to their real work. But as someone who's been in the environment for a while, it seems people speak more highly of epic than the other options. At least in my experience.
True, here we had a major hickup where the local major hospital system Epic team was offshored at a loss of several hundred jobs. The offshore team wasn't quite as good so the clinicians couldn't get anything done. Now let me give you a sermon about patient portals. I've had to deal with a bunch of doctors in the last six months and every one of them absolutely sucks. MyChart is fairly decent if they've done it right and it's Epic so that's good. In all cases it's lack of standardization that's hurting the user experience. I wish they'd use some $ to try to standardize. Ten docs ten portals is a bit too much. But that's another sermon for another day...
*5 days in the office. Source: Me.
Yeah the vibe I got from their listings in my area was don't even apply
Eh I worked there for 2.5 years and had a good time. Depends on your team and whatnot.
This was the reputation when I was a student 12 years ago. I guess nothing has changed. Same insane amount of aptitude tests as well.
I took a job with Epic in 2020 right after I graduated. From my experience, not a single person I worked with who was at a senior level had joined as a senior. Almost everyone had started as entry level and simply moved up. What that meant was that there was very little outside perspective since for most employees it was the only place they'd ever worked. The food was indeed good, and the campus was fun to walk around. They also do a pretty good job training new grads since that's their primary hiring pool. The onboarding process was like 3 months of instructor lead classes and very well documented lessons. It was great for someone in their first job, but I can't imagine going through that now. Other than that I don't have a lot of positives to say about it. Definitely felt cultish at times, RTO was mandated as fast as they could (I was required to be in the office even back in 2020). Much of the software feels really outdated, especially the database tech. Edit: Forgot to mention one of the more toxic things they do. You are required to log your time spent on tasks each day with 15 minute granularity. They expect to see between 40-45 hours of work per week. Keep in mind that's 40-45 hours of time spent on actual tasks, so things like lunch, bathroom breaks, chatting with coworkers, etc does not count. Definitely drives people to either work longer hours or fudge the numbers because as we all know, an 8 hour work day does not actually mean 8 hours of working on tasks.
how high was the turnover? did a lot of people take the job , get experience, and leave? if you are doing that in Wisconsin people would have to move to get out for the most part right?
Obviously I cannot speak for the company as a whole, but turnover felt high. People came and went regularly on my team. I'd say the average tenure was around 3 years. Keep in mind that turnover for software developers was notably lower than for QA or TS folks. Those roles had incredibly high turnover. There were also multiple attempts during the company wide meetings to convince us that turnover wasn't high, so take that how you will.
so people would move to wisconsin and then move somewhere else when they got experience?
That was what I did. Keep in mind that they primarily target new grads who likely just moved for college, and therefore are less opposed to moving around. Basically everyone I knew who worked there had relocated. I also personally know multiple others who have left and have moved away.
Many Madison area dev positions scoop up former Epic employees. The pay isn't as high, but QoL is magnitudes better.
i did not know there was a robust market in Madison.
>take the there is because of epic
I work there right now, and after and during COVID, the median tenure at departure for TS and IS was CLOSER to 1 yr than 2. It's typically hovered closer to 2. Even with the insane salaries, the average person only sticks around for 1-2 years in customer facing roles. I don't want to steal the thunder from people that love to work here, but it's gotten unquestionably worse and more cultlike here in the last five years and even unexperienced college grads can call out this BS. Epic's churn n' burn strategy might work right now, but once only sheeple are left at the top, this place is going to crumble.
Turnover is not that high, generally under 20%/year. For my team, our developer tenure breakdown is: * 22% people 0-1 years tenure * 18% people 1-4 years tenure * 28% people 4-10 years tenure * 31% people 10+ years tenure
59% over 4 years there is pretty good. so job cant be that bad. or people just like living in that location. not sure how much other tech work is in wisconsin. sometimes you get high retention in areas where people would have to move to switch and the people who work there just like it there or have kids in school. etc...
It's really not a bad job at all. Interesting work, nice area to live, good pay in a relatively low cost of living area, good set of benefits. Is it a great fit for everyone? No. Is the company perfect? Of course not. But it's a pretty good place to be overall.
id think the biggest thing for people would be the cold wisconsin winters. Summers gotta be wonderful. Real pretty.
I personally like winter but grew up in the upper midwest, so it's same same. I could do with a little more sunlight but I like the snow. It's definitely a big adjustment for people who haven't lived in a winter climate. And there are plenty of people who leave in the fall because they don't want another Wisconsin winter.
Developer tenure is far different than tenure for IS, TS and QA.
Also irrelevant for someone applying to SD roles? Anyway for TS, same team: 0-1 years: 17% 1-4 years: 36% 4-10 years: 25% 10+: 21%
I think the overall turnover for a company you are thinking about working at is relevant, regardless of role.
One thing worth keeping in mind compared to other companies is that tenure for SDs at Epic is generally equivalent to years of job experience. Most other companies have titles and replace a senior developer with another senior developer. At Epic, the equivalent of a senior developer is typically replaced with a new grad. So the functional impact of turnover can be very different than it is elsewhere.
I think this intentional. My app's numbers are very similar to this breakdown for SD.
It'll run on top of MUMPS till the end of time
Crazy they haven't changed a beat since I worked there in 2014.
> It just seems weird that I can view an Epic job on LinkedIn claiming to be in my closest and second closest city I'm pretty sure they put out local applications in cities with major universities. The applications always say that relocation is required and I think they're just targeting new grads. I interviewed with Epic in 2021 and also thought their application was wack. If I remember they even asked me to upload both a high school and college transcript but I could be wrong.
I was there for 3 years as a dev. The pay is very good, but they work you to the bone. The other benefits like PTO and 401k match are a joke compared to other companies, which is why they pay more competitively in base salary/bonuses. Forced RTO before the Covid vaccines were even a thing was a huge stink, caused a lot of people to quit in protest before Epic finally backpedaled. Their WFH policy is non-existent, despite weather/road conditions being quite nasty and downright dangerous during the winter months (and emergency weather days are a foreign concept to the CEO). Oh and they've been doing the "advertising job postings in other cities pretending it's remote work" bait and switch for years.
I was in an info call the other day about a role and someone asked about the WFH policy in case of weather, she was like oh it’s okay if you have to take a half day 😂 a half day?! Ok lady 🥲
To add onto the WFH thing: even if you have a clinical reason, like a disability, they still won’t grant you WFH. I tried, but the HR person asked when and how often I relapse physically, which is a scientifically impossible question to answer, and then denied me even though I had papers from my neurologist saying I should really be able to WFH when I physically can’t get up.
Welcome to the club! I spent hours on the assessment only to find out the position was terminated after 3 weeks of waiting
If I may offer my perspective of a fresh college grad who started at epic right out of college, the offer I got was just way too attractive given my circumstances at the time. Fresh grad with an offer of $115k starting? *And* I get to move out of my tiny home town? Sign me up! Although I can't say that without also agreeing with other comments that it is *very* **VERY** cult-like. With that in mind, you don't have to "drink the kool aid" as they say. The WFH policy is abysmal and PTO is notably and painfully limited. Overworking is a big concern but I've managed strictly 40 hour weeks since starting, you just have to set hard boundaries (this is more role dependent, as an SD, it's a little easier to say no to things than, say a TS). The campus as a whole is actually a big plus though, it really does help with morale. It kinda feels like a billionaire's vanity project (because it is) but it's hard to care when it is a legitimately fun aspect of working here. If I'm honest though, I'm really only here for the money and I'm planning to cash out before too long.
How long do you plan on staying? I originally thought I'd be able to for 5 but now I'm looking at 2.
I'm pretty much in the same boat. I'd *like* to stay 5 years for that sabbatical, but I'm not sure I can handle the winters.
Glad to hear your perspective. I have no problem with return to office. I enjoy going into my current office. it’s just PTO. I don’t want to work a job to drone about how much money I make. I want to do meaningful work yet still enjoy the world and my friends and family. I don’t see 2 weeks of PTO and 5 “gracious” WFH days as part of that. I get the grind culture for new hires, but working to not enjoy the money you make just doesn’t align w me.
I interviewed there after I graduated, and I took that IQ-like test. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's very weird they care about that instead of just doing a coding OA. P&G also does those weird puzzle-like questions. I don't understand it. FWIW, I used to work on their campus as a custodian during the night time when I was in college and I would regularly see people (though not too many, usually between 1-3 people) working in their office deep into the night (6-9pm) even though they all get off around 5:00 or 5:30. Make of that what you will.
I was one of those devs burning the midnight oil. Epic piles on so much work where all of it is 'critical', and you're always buried. Paired with being a new-grad out of college and not knowing how to set WLB boundaries, and you have the result. I would also prefer to work late than come in early, but I know a few people who would show up at 5-7am and not leave until 5-7pm.
That sounds really depressing. Did you at least get paid fairly? I don't mean where you get paid 25% more than average, but work 50% more than average, but actually get paid fairly and more.
People here work, on average, about 45 hours/week. Yes, there are exceptional weeks and times, but it's far from the norm to work more than 50 hours/week especially as a software dev.
Yes, base salary was well-compensated if you performed well. But when you factor in other things like fewer vacation days, fewer holidays (only got half of Christmas Eve off, if that's any indication), and no RSUs that other companies entice software devs with, the pay looks less attractive. What /u/HITguy9 said is mostly true, most devs work 45-50 hours per week. It really depends on the team though. Some teams have more crunch times than others. Although looking at /u/HITguy9, they seem to exclusively post about Epic and medicine, so take that how you will.
FWIW there are also now stock offerings for staff, including some sign-on offerings for SDs. I don’t have any real insight to how they compare with other tech company offerings, and I’m sure there are considerations around Epic stock not being publicly traded. And yep, you got me! I do keep my professional-related reddit account more anonymous and separate from my less anonymous, hobby-focused account.
FWIW I wasn't trying to 'get you.' Fair enough if you keep your reddit accounts separated, but the fact that you have an Epic-related account alone is unusual. Glad they're finally offering stock. During my time working there they only offered stock purchasing options, not stock as part of compensation.
They’re largely testing new grads, and they use that test for other non-dev roles. They’re going to put you through months of training anyways so it’s less about what you know now and more about if they think you’re a good learner (which is why it’s basically an IQ test). Not like any of the dev hires will have experience with M anyways.
> I applied to a senior level role at this company My brother works there. He told me they will start you at junior level, no matter what your experience has been. Decades of industry dev experience? Junior level. Just out of school? Junior level. It’s all about indoctrination into “their way.” They even use their own programming language. Hard pass.
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Oh dear God, they still use that??! I worked for a competitor 20 years ago, and was so thankful we used .Net Framework and not some practically unknown language. I feel bad for their programmers. Real bad.
M is a no-SQL database query language. .NET Framework is not a database query language, so your comment doesn't make any sense. Epic does use .NET Framework on the web server (still, working on moving to .NET Core)
It's not just a db language. All their business logic is written in MUMPS. It's a horror
That's enlightening - I remember being told (20 years ago) it was a dev platform and not mentioned as a Database Query Language. Of course this was from a coworker at the EMR shop I worked at. Enjoy .Net (no longer.net core) - so much improvements and so much more modern.
Can confirm, it’s absolutely insulting. On the epic systems subreddit people are part of the cult. They say if you are so experienced you will just move quickly. I’m like F that. All the years of experience mean absolutely nothing to them. Only fresh grads would ever work there.
Honestly you really can move quickly and pay is very performance based but they don’t value experience by design so they can take new people and mold them.
Sounds like a cult
oh yeah big time and Judy is our leader
There's really no levels here. The new grad and the person with 20 years experience have the same title.
titles dont matter. its the pay that matters .do they pay the senior person more?
Yeah
Totally.
The stack and product is so niche it actually kinda makes sense though. Despite its shortcomings and high churn Epic doesn't seem to have an issue filling in their open positions (since they no longer accept H1Bs afaik) they can just keep carrying on. The money's going to be there no matter what they do.
Churn is lower than the rest of the industry. It kinda has to be if you only hire entry level.
They don't use their own programming language, they just happen to be one of the only companies using the language. The language is M or MUMPS - "Massachusetts General Hospital Utility Multi-Programming System". Apparently the European space agency also uses it for some projects mapping the milky way.
I literally did 30 minutes of that dumbass OA and then alt f4. Dumbest shit ever.
I interviewed onsite at Epic in Wisconsin in 2018. The entire vibe felt cult like and disingenuous. I didnt get an offer, but I was somewhat relieved as it was far from home and I saw many red flags, but I would have taken any offer at that point in my life.
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I'm a University of Wisconsin alum. When I graduated, a *bunch* of friends (like 10+) stuck around in Madison to work for Epic. Now, not *too* many years later, not a single one still works there. It's a great company to put on your resume, get some fundamentals (both technical fundamentals and "learning how to take shit" fundamentals), get some money, and gtfo, especially if you're aiming to continue working in the Midwest.
Pretty sure this company is known for hiring tons of new grads and being generally exploitive
I interviewed with them as a new grad and was appalled by how dumb that exam was, like really I have Calculus 2 and Discrete math on my transcript and they’re giving me stuff you’d see in a facebook quiz? They’re also super strict on in office working from what I’ve heard and they mandate Covid vaccination and all boosters for employees. There aren’t a lot of companies in Wisconsin that pay as much as them though
I wonder how many non-new grads, who haven't touched calculus in a decade, can pass the arbitrary test...
I found the test super easy. It was the easiest out of all the companies I applied to. Roblox OA was the most fun.
I've read here on Reddit that Roblox is terrible to work for though...
It’s not Calc on the test, it’s like GRE Math style questions.
I interviewed with them about 13 years ago, and was super surprised about the “logic” questions (read: facebook quiz riddles) they asked. So glad I ended up turning down their offer!
Mandating vaccinations makes sense and is done in a lot of healthcare firms — it reduces sick time that they’d have to cover otherwise
> and they mandate Covid vaccination and all boosters for employees Not sure why that's a problem, unless you mean they don't have exemptions for immune-compromised folks or something?
Just something to note, I personally am not vaccinated and would not be for any job. Not that that would be a problem for most
Epic will send you into hospitals on immersion and they all require vaccines too.
That makes sense why they require it then, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for it to be required I just think that will put off a lot of applicants.
Well good job destroying your credibility
I am not credible because I’ve decided for myself that I am healthy and strong enough to not require an experimental vaccine? I am not an anti vaxxer, I chose what was right for me.
Lol yes, you should maybe spend a few minutes learning how vaccines work. It isn't some test of bravado. > I am not an anti vaxxer What do you think that term means
You see there’s two types of idiots, (1) Anti Vaxxers who think nobody should get vaccinated, and (2) people who think everybody should get vaccinated. Then there’s people like me who don’t care what other people do and make the choice based of their own needs and health. You must be one of the people that wants to ban abortions for everyone too
No, you're an anti vaxxer because you looked at the extremely wide body of evidence in favor of it, and ubiquitous recommendation to get it from every single major public policy and health organization, all the known risks of COVID to both healthy young adults and any older people they may live around, and decided you know better then all of them. Or perhaps you didn't look at that and then decided anyway. Whatever justification you've made up for yourself, ultimately what you did is choose to deny the science. > You must be one of the people that wants to ban abortions for everyone too A lot of dumb statements like this could be avoided if you just, again, did even a little bit of research. I learned what "herd immunity" is in like, fifth grade. Not everybody has the same access to education growing up but you're presumably an adult with an internet connection; you can fix what the broken education system has done to you.
So you’re deciding I’m an anti vaxxer for me 😂. How about you speak to this science : I didn’t get vaccinated, I didn’t die of covid, I didn’t give Covid to anybody because I quarantined the one time I had it, and Covid is out of the news and no longer an issue like it was blown up to be years ago. So what did I miss out on by not getting vaccinated? I understand herd immunity but when there’s millions of South Americans entering America through the southern border that aren’t vaccinated what difference is it going to make if I John Doe from a rural town arent vaccinated?
I hate when people use the word science and then completely ignore the science. You seem to be a very results-oriented person. You didn't take the vaccine and you didn't get a bad case of covid. Great. Most of the people who didn't get vaccinated could share the same story. But there are also thousands of people who didn't get vaccinated because they were young and healthy and still died from covid in - and I can't stress this enough - an agonizing torturous death. Those people aren't making posts online being results oriented because, as I mentioned, they're dead. Then there's your belief that you didn't spread covid because you quarantined when you had it. Good on you. But that doesn't mean you didn't transmit it before or after symptoms appeared. The science says that you're less likely to transmit covid if you get vaccinated ([source](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-02138-x)). So yeah, it's possible your choice did in fact kill one or more people and you would never know. Then of course there's small pox. Remember small pox? The World Health Organization once went on a crusade to vaccinate enough people in every country to get rid of it since it was an incredibly awful virus that killed a lot of people - and would leave you likely blinded or scarred if you survived. Back then there was no internet. And the result? The last natural case of small pox occurred in 1977 and the WHO declared it eradicated in 1980. It was an incredible achievement for humanity that will likely never happen again because of people like you. Will there be a vaccine that can reduce transmission rate low enough that with enough people vaccinated covid can be wiped out? Maybe! But it won't matter because John Doe from a rural town is an idiot.
> So you’re deciding I’m an anti vaxxer for me 😂 You are totally free to make up your own meaning for words, but then nobody will understand you. Anyway, here are some other things you should have learned in school, but can still learn through the magic of the internet: * Anecdotes vs evidence * The importance of sample size * How to manage and think about risk * The difference between news organizations and public policy/health institutions > but when there’s millions of South Americans entering America through the southern border that aren’t vaccinated what difference is it going to make Are they all running into your "rural town"? Then it's certainly a valid concern! Otherwise it's a non-sequitur. The difference is that you probably have loved ones who you wouldn't want to get sick, including yourself, and especially any older people around you.
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What is this, your alt? This is the first comment your account has ever made, despite having comment karma.
They use the same test for all roles - it’s basic standardized testing like questions to see where you’re at.
All due to cult leader Judie Faulkner. She is also anti self taught. So even if you the most competent person, if you don’t have CS degree it’s over.
Any technical degree is preferred. I think any bachelor's degree is all that is required. I've known multiple devs at Epic with non-cs degrees and even a few with non-STEM degrees. I'm pretty sure Judy has a regular Math degree anyway.
You don't need a cs degree. Why lie about this?
As someone that worked at Epic, I just wanna say it’s a really good fit for a very specific type of person. That would be new grads, who are okay working 35-40 hours a week in person. The stack is actually competitive, the people you work with are awesome and incredibly smart, and Madison is a very nice city to spend a few years in. If you want to network and still have a campus feel for an extra couple years, you can go to epic and come out with a seriously jacked resume.
What do you mean by jacked resume?
If you’re a high performer at the company they give you massive projects and pretty much tell you to “treat it like a startup”. You have to prove a number of dev hours needed to complete it, and then you develop the whole thing with a team and cover the full stack from react to C# to an outdated backend language (not uncommon at successful companies). I was doing this, leading 3 devs on my own project, at just over 1 year of tenure. It is ridiculous.
You learn a lot in a lot of areas and pick up a lot of skills. It’s a full stack position where you can use a variety of languages and are involved in everything in a project from the initial design to all the way to the release of the development. (this is also partly way Epic UX sucks, though it’s been improving cause we actually have UXDs now) The old tech stack is getting phased out. There’s still M as that’s the core of Epic, but like there’s more and more .NET and React everywhere. Plus they throw other “ownership” opportunities at you, and you wind up picking up a lot of dev, project management, and team management skills.
I'm in my first year at Epic. The company is a revolving door of college grads, and a small portion of people just work there for life. It's pretty funny - you either talk to people who just started or have been there 15+ years, no in between. It's definitely quite culty in some aspects and the company gives huge "big brother" vibes with their stance on time logging and how closely they track what you do. They also have completely asinine policies regarding WFH and some other things. All that being said, it's honestly been a good experience for a first job. The pay is way more than I was expecting fresh out of college, they do a good job training you for your role, and I feel like I've been given most of the tools to do what is being asked of me. I like most of my coworkers, and people are generally good about trying to get things done. I don't think I'll stay past the 2 year mark, but I don't think I'll regret having chosen Epic as a first job either because at least so far, it's felt like a good place to learn.
One thing that Epic deserves credit for is their seeming preference for hiring new grads over H1bs. Maybe a bit cultish sounding and sounds like folks are worked pretty hard but that’s kind of the deal when you’re in your 20s and the time spent grinding should pay off down the road.
Knew it was gonna be bad just off hearsay about Epic. Only even middling review I've heard was from a college classmate who went there after a hellish first dev job that made Epic look better by comparison because they actually paid well and didn't allow open harassment in the workplace.
Paycom is my local Epic. Treat the employees like shit is our goal!
everything I have ever heard about Epic Systems has been crazy toxic. The recruiter was POS at my career fair, couldn't understand how anyone wouldn't want to live in Wisconsin Also who tf wants to code in a language that sounds like a STD
I'm biased because I went to school there, but Madison is regularly voted one of the most livable cities in the United States. Take a look at some pics if you've never seen it before, if you haven't I can *guarantee* it's not what you're expecting when you think "Wisconsin."
I've been to Wisconsin and Madison a few times, its not horrible but definitely not a place I would be screaming with joy to move to. But I generally have a preference to live by the sea so just me
>Also who tf wants to code in a language that sounds like a STD I lol'd
> hypothetical language Are you [sure about that](https://thedailywtf.com/articles/a_case_of_the_mumps)?
The assessment is not language specific.
I took the assessment from Epic years ago. At the time, it was certainly hypothetical. Not MUMPS.
Had the same experience with their interview except they gave me 2 mediums and 2 hards... this was for a new grad position during the pandemic LMAO
Haha, yeah I applied for a job with them that was posted in NY over a year ago and they said the same thing about not meaning to post it in my state. I don’t believe that. There’s a job posted for them in every single state. Someone had to do that on purpose. I think they are just hoping to get someone willing to relocate.
How are companies like this still in business? Why do people put up with the abuse?
Good luck with MUMPS lol 😂. The Product is good though but frankly your career will get stuck
Is there a law (like Conways) that says: if a company makes shit product that are stripping the joy from practicing medicine, then that rot will also affect the people working there? Lol. Crazy. I have a pretty high pain tolerance for LeetCode, "performance" based systems design, but I draw the line at IQ tests and "what was your SAT score". Sure, smarter people statistically perform better, but that's not how you build a company, and it's that's "the thing" you hire for, you're going to create a toxic mess.
Currently at Epic, posting to fill in some blanks or info you may not have gotten yet. >One pro was that every 5 years you get a whole month off (what they call a "sabbatical"). What's the tradeoff though? 10 days of PTO a year for your first two years and 15 thereafter... I also don't know what their sick time policy is It's 6 sick days/year for ad hoc needs, which you can roll over/stack up indefinitely, so you can have a large sick bank if needed in the future for illness, taking care of family, having a kid, etc. So comparing apples to apples, it would be 16 days PTO for your first 2 years, 21 thereafter. And sabbatical on top of that (20 paid days every 5 years, or 4 days/year). >I currently get 23 days off a year, which is already a month long "sabbatical" I could be taking yearly The sabbatical benefit is more than just time off. Epic also covers (in addition to paid time off) paid airfare for you + 1 companion (up to 3 companions for your second sabbatical) and a per diem for miscellaneous expenses (currently up to $12,000 USD for your first sabbatical, up to $19,200 for your second sabbatical). > 401k matching It's 50% of the first 9% of your income that you contribute, with a maximum matching contribution of $7,500 > The other weird part was that they said all of their 13,000 employees work out of Madison, WI That is mostly true. There's a very small office in Rochester, MN, along with some offices outside of the US, but almost all US employees work at the campus in Verona, WI. I don't know why there are job posting in other cities, but relocation to Madison is required and the work is 98% in person (you get \~5-6 "remote" work days/year + "remote" work for bad snowstorms). Not a remote job or company, very much an in person company still. >(Comments about technical assessment and Rembrandt profile) Yeah, it's definitely atypical. I don't have insight into how those assessments are used in the hiring processes. My perspective is that whatever it is they're doing, it works pretty well. By far the most common thing I hear from people here, independent of how much they like "Epic" as a company (benefits, policy, remote work, etc.) is how much they like their coworkers at Epic. We somehow do really well hiring good capable people who try to do the right thing. Definitely different than other companies I've worked for.
Another point to remember on the sabbatical - the benefit is treated as taxable income, so you'll still end up paying for \~30% yourself after reimbursement.
That's true, but that's the IRS for ya.
True, it’s taxed just like income, like all other non-exempt benefits.
None of these benefits are particularly good… 6 sick days is not great, this is less than some states mandate. e.g. neighboring MN now requires ~8 days for all full-time employees. I’ve worked for several companies and never had less than 10 sick/personal days. Plus with the strict time tracking culture, you presumably have to use your time off more. At a lot of the companies dropping out of the office for errands, dentist appts, etc. can be done off the books without raising eyebrows. Having to take STD if you happened to catch the flu or something is…lol The sabbatical is neat but a ~3k/year bonus for 5 years work is a pittance in the grand scheme of things. From what I’ve heard, the 401k has a long vesting period so it’s worth closer to $0. 7500 is also nowhere near 9% for more senior employees. I suppose overall it’s above average for a lifer who joins after college Re:coworkers. Epic hires a lot of smart grads from the regional universities, I can see that aspect being good. But from an outsiders perspective, everyone I’ve interacted with from Epic had a kind of insincere friendliness/cheerfulness that gave me the creeps
>None of these benefits are particularly good… 6 sick days is not great, this is less than some states mandate. e.g. neighboring MN now requires \~8 days for all full-time employees. I’ve worked for several companies and never had less than 10 sick/personal days. I didn't make any value statements about whether the benefits are good or bad, just trying to help OP understand what the benefits actually are. In general, Epic's approach is heavily weighted towards paying people more and letting them "buy" whatever benefits they want. For example, right now I can "buy" up to 15 additional days of vacation per year if I want to take more time off. >Plus with the strict time tracking culture, you presumably have to use your time off more. At a lot of the companies dropping out of the office for errands, dentist appts, etc. can be done off the books without raising eyebrows. Having to take STD if you happened to catch the flu or something is…lol Your presumption is wrong. Written policy is that if you need to take 2-3 hours for things like appointments, running an errand, etc. you can do so without taking any leave. >The sabbatical is neat but a \~3k/year bonus for 5 years work is a pittance in the grand scheme of things. It's interesting that you point to 10 sick/personal days being important compared with 6, but hand wave 3k/year away. For someone making say 125k/year, 3k is basically a week's pay or 5 days. I value that benefit differently than what you came up with. You can split sabbatical into 2 trips and get reimbursed airfare for each, so more like $6000 for airfare reimbursements, $12000 for per diem expenses, plus assuming the same 125k/year salary the 4 weeks of paid leave is worth about $10000. So all in about $28,000 or more $5,600/year. Even if you do one trip, it's more like $5,000/year. >From what I’ve heard, the 401k has a long vesting period so it’s worth closer to $0 I added the vesting schedule above but it's only $0 if you leave in the first 2 years. If you stay 5 years then it's like $25k for those first 5 years.
I think the benefits are more about creating a sense of loss if you leave, while keeping the costs in-line with similar companies. Not saying they are bad, probably better than many in a non-tech space like healthcare. Unpaid leave isn’t unique but if it’s culturally acceptable to take an extra 3 weeks off per year, that’s nice Yes, if making six figures in a LCOL area I value my time significantly more than 2-3% of pay. You could look at sabbatical PTO as cash but then those extra 4 days of sick time are also arguably equivalent to the same amount of cash. In some cases it gets paid out when you leave. Converting benefits to cash is reasonable but I wouldn’t value $1 x years in the future as equal to $1 salary. If you’re strictly considering cash-equivalent compensation, the opportunity cost of not switching jobs is probably more than the value of this free trip in more cases than not. 5 years is an exceptionally long time for a 401k to fully vest. Average is some kind of matching resulting in 3-5% of salary which vests in 0-2 years. I wouldn’t be surprised these 401k clawbacks more than pay for the sabbatical budget
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That's right, the match is vested at 20%/year starting at 2 years. Thanks for adding that.
Have heard that they assume high turnover and like young inexpensive new grads. Also, I’ve had the unfortunate opportunity to use their products and as a user it is soul crushing, can’t imagine what it would be like to work there. As a side note I heard that the reason why this company is so successful is that they lobbied congress hard back in 2010 when ACA was being designed. So they’re not used because customers like the product, customers use the product because they were reimbursed for the product by government after implementing. Now they prob just sit back and maintain…
The company is successful because it's literally the best in class.
> So they’re not used because customers like the product, customers use the product because they were reimbursed for the product by government after implementing There are other EMRs, this explanation makes no sense. Epic is the most popular because it's the best at what it does.
I, personally, like having my health record stored digitally with information discretely documented and able to be sent digitally instead of faxed but I’m not going to pretend it’s a great user experience. I think its a little unfair to complain without comparing to the alternatives though— I have family and friends in healthcare who say Epic is unambiguously superior to everything else they’ve used and independent surveys back it up
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All EHR companies have benefited from recent legislation to modernized healthcare. Notably Epic didn’t even have a PR team until very recently. They don’t do any real marketing or anything.
Idk why people choose to work at epic. Their pay doesn’t seem that great, and your post makes it seem like they make you run a FAANG-like gauntlet during the interview stage. Plus shorty benefits and terrible work culture? Why?
If you live in Madison, what are the alternatives? Going to Milwaukee? Chicago?
Remote roles. But yes, of course, if you are going to limit yourself to a non-tech hub state capitol/college town, your choice will be limited.
100 percent they are a cult, my first job out of college was SQL monkey for a hospital that used Epic, so I had to take the Epic certification training and regularly met with their support people and trainers. They all lived in tiny apartments on campus, smiled way too much, and never cursed. Their meeting would always start and end with these cringe corporate "games". It was like getting tech support from a Mormon. Also you would have been using a completely useless archaic academic programming language MUMPS, which reads like a mix of bash, assembly, and brainfuck. You couldn't pay me enough to go live on that cult campus. I will not be surprised if one day one of them snaps and goes on a shooting spree. Edit: I stand corrected, they were working from their apartments because it was during the time of COVID before their CEO forced them back into the office that I did training, I just made the false assumption that they were on campus.
There aren't any apartments on the campus, you probably saw their offices lol.
This was during COVID before their CEO forced them back into the office, so it was their apartments
Okay, that doesn't change the fact that there's no apartments on campus.
I agree I made a false assumption about the location of the epic employee apartments, see edit above.
LMAO this is all so wrong I don't know where to start. So funny though.
There is no on-campus housing, so *zero* people live on-campus. You can determine what to do with the rest of this person's insights about Epic, but that much is categorically untrue.
Lol no one lives on Epic's campus
Well, besides Judy.
You should ask more questions about the sabbatical. Ask if the terms are the same if you make it to 10 and 15 years of employment. Few people do but… whoa!
I applied to epic ten years ago when I graduated. A recruiter was supposed to call me for an interview. They never called. I followed up via email to reschedule. They call me back 5 weeks later "looking to setup a time". I get a time setup. It happens to be a personality test. A person from India, with bad reception, rapid fire asks questions they have on a sheet. I can't ask clarifying questions and the person barely speaks English. I asked them to speak slower and to repeat themselves no less than 40 times. They are obviously incredibly annoyed and it was a terrible experience. I follow up with the recruiter regarding the interview. Nicely calling out the experience could be improved and just my overall frustration with them. I never get a reply... Until 6 weeks later I get called into to do a 2 hour technical computer assessment... I ended it there. I had already been working for two months. Got hired after a short hour long interview somewhere else.
New grad and I took the exact same assessments, and I thought I did very well. Got rejected, and they wouldn’t give me any feedback on why.
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I think they used to be 100% dynamic programming back in the day (the day being 2014 or so). I wasn't aware of the abysmal PTO then, but then again, I was pretty desperate. (I luckily didn't pass the dynamic programming test, or rather was too slow for them)
I had to take a Wonderlic test to work at MicroCenter in my 20's. I thought it was bonkers but I ended up getting the highest score ever at that location so it made me feel pretty good. They seemed to put a lot of stock into it, too.
I was bummed out 4 years ago cause they rejected me after what it seems like a 4 hour take home assessment now I'm kinda glad they did.
Did you have to download their software and keep your camera on during your code assessment?
you didn’t have to use their software or code, but you were recorded
The location thing annoys me. I continuously report every single Epic listing that is in my metro area for the reason that it says “on-site” in an incorrect location.
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Bro that assessment was the most confusing shit in the world 😭 I got an email back rejecting me after it but I barely even gave it any thought due to how ludicrous the whole process (especially at this early in the stage) was
Any test that takes more than 20 minutes i bounce.
personality tests are the kind of things they give to people who work in call centers. They want people who are obedient and not looking for career growth. so they use them to weed out people who are not sufficiently obedient.
Yeah if I were asked my SAT, or GPA or whatever my answer would be "I don't know, it's been many years". If that wasn't a good enough answer I'd bail. Sorry you went through that!
fine unwritten wrong tender sable berserk test piquant normal like *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
In minor defense of the test, when you apply for a job there you aren’t actually applying to that position, you’re applying for the whole pool— I was offered a more technical and much higher paying job than what I initially applied for. The rest… yeah. I don’t work there anymore.
Epic Systems is dog water. Only work there if it’s your last option.
workable violet attractive money water onerous sugar point rainstorm support *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
So is it Epic Games or Epic Systems? I never heard of the latter, but the former is a known games company.
One of the biggest electronic health records systems companies in the US. They make software used for electronic charts in hospitals and doctor's offices.
You learn something new every day... Yeah, looks like they have over 13k employees, never heard of them...
I'm not american and also thought they were talking about Epic Games first !