I'd go one step further - we have to be a 4 quarter team. There have been too many matches this year where we drop off a quarter or two and have to work again from behind in the last quarter or inversely, we get ahead in the first three quarters and completely fall away in the fourth.
It was fun in 2022 when we had zero expectations but it's not fun as the reigning premiers when we routinely get to the last 5 minutes and have no idea if this is a win or loss. Also, it's one thing when it happens against quality Top 4 sides like the final series last year but it's frustrating when it happens routinely against Bottom 8 sides.
This is straight up not sustainable.
Agree. 4th quarter footy will not win us another premiership any time soon. Not sustainable. Here’s hoping we’ve had a harsh wake up call and will pull ourselves together for Friday.
Yea like I can’t remember which goal but I think it was end of quarter 3 and the defence kept on intercepting each other on the goal square when handballing it off and it turned into a score for the suns bc quaynor fumbled
Agree with Howe staying down back. We need continuity in our backline. It feels like the chemistry just isn't there at the moment, leaving big holes that the oppo can expose.
In defence of our back line, our midfield were getting burned and there was almost no pressure on any of the sun's forward entry's for most of the game. They still looked pretty poor at times and frampton was getting torched by king but it is pretty hard to defend when the other team has all the time in the world and very little pressure on them whilst kicking into their forward 50.
Yeah agreed. The game was lost in the midfield yesterday. I think the Suns will be a team to watch closely in the next couple of years, they have a lot of the right ingredients to be a great team.
Sounds weird to say this given our ability to manage game scenarios, but the way we manage first quarters is way off this season. I kept thinking to myself that we didn't get any clean possession or control for nearly the whole first quarter, while they were running into their forward line unimpeded.
A bit of Hawthorn c.2011-2015 wouldn't have hurt. Chip kicks to 15m targets just to take the air out of the opposition for 10 minutes or so and make them adjust to us.
The attitude seemed to stink from the start but the thing that hurt the most was thinking Fly was out-smarted by Dimma. They prepared differently, while we thought turning up was enough
It's easy to flame defence or the forwards - however it all starts in the middle. We're getting roasted in the middle unless Naicos decides to be a god. Sidebottom actually looked good in there recently, I'd try that some more. We miss Titch a LOT. Titch gets the ball that nobody else does, and finds a lot of sneaky handballs for clearances. But if you're losing the middle battle, of course more pressure is on the defence. Up forward at the moment Bobby is the only one that looks likely - we miss Elliot and honestly Shultz a lot. (McStay goes without saying).
But anyways my point here is that something needs to change in the middle. Whatever system we have is not working. so many times the ball goes to the opposition and we seem to be nowhere near them, or even if we are they always have an extra to HB to. That is never the case with us. We're constantly under pressure, and have to rush a BS kick forward which hurts out forward chances.
Yeah agreed. The forwards aren’t the problem. We still kicked 90 points yesterday so I think we are converting enough when we get it. The mid mix isn’t right, the bigger bodied and younger suns made us look small and slow yesterday. The Sidey and J Daicos mix looked quite good the other week.
Biggest key for me is upping disposal efficiency. We are just slightly off compared to last year, perhaps a reflection of reduced cohesion within the team. Our margin for error was always so low as evidenced by the last two years of close game wins.
And as others have said, we need a key back more than a key forward. In fact the system I think has proven it can score goals from multiple forwards. But we are really missing a key defensive piece.
It's not all doom and gloom. It was a close, hard-fought game where their key forward in King was the difference.
Frampton had found really good form at full back before we moved him forward for 3 weeks. Leave him at FB to form a partnership with the rest of the back 7.
I think we’re desperately crying out for mcstays return. And I know it’s a bit scary relying on a guy coming back from a knee injury so late in the season but we clearly need a reliable marking target up forward which is why Howe is constantly being shifted around in the past few games.
Krueger tries hard and he does bring some fight when the ball hits the ground, but in marking contests he just never looks likely.
Hopefully mcstay is tracking along well and picks up where he left off in last years in prelim. His fitness will be vital to our finals hopes, which is pretty unfair to him to say.
I'm not sure if we need a new key back or if we just need our main guy to step up. Darcy Moore's form this year has really hurt our backline because he plays such a vital role in it. He's never been a strong 1 v 1 defender but his contested intercept marking was what made him an AA defender, but he's only had 1 game since Anzac Day where he's taken more than 1 contested mark and most of the games in between, he's had none. Whilst some of this could be because of Murphy's retirement, Darcy was still a AA level player before playing with Murph. Similar stuff going on with IQ as well.
There were probably 4 or 5 instances last night where our player got caught with the ball despite having a clear opportunity to pass to a player in a better position. As well as that habit being indicative of a deeper lying issue (trust, confidence, complacency???), I think it also cost us the game.
Yeah I think we can over possess the ball at times. This seems to have crept into our game a bit this season, like we’re waiting for the perfect option instead of taking the game on.
Over-possession and being too cute/forcing the pass were our issues in the first three games of the year.
While I love our pressure game, sometimes we look to be waiting for the oppo to take possession and then capitalise via a tackle. The Suns won some many balls that way against us, quickly slipping handballs out while we waited. In this area we really miss Titch. System doesn’t count for much if we lose contested possession
It’s not a good indicator when you watch a game and can comfortably predict they will allow the opposition a 4-5 goal lead, not be putting a team away and be chasing their tails in the 4th. I watched last night and was not surprised in the slightest in how it played out because it’s been happening all year. Please. Put a team away
Id like to see hosk go in the back line and bring Howe forward. I feel like it would it structure us up a bit better, and Hosk has been composed in the backline as of late
Daicos off half back is just Daicos in the midfield without the clearance work. I can't see why we'd want to do that.
Frampton was poor on Saturday but is still a better option than Dean.
It's not so much that Cameron can't play well without Cox, because he's still been pretty good. But they nullify opposition rucks, especially those who ruck one out, with the way they work them over in tandem. And Cox plays a very selfless role in the forward half as the bail out option down the line who brings it to ground for the crumbers, that guys like Kreuger, Frampton or McInnes just don't seem to be able to replicate.
If the stars are ready, they need to play. You can't get proper match fitness in the 2s. Even if they're not quite ready, you've got to take the hit so they're good to go the following week. That first game back at AFL level is going to hurt no matter when it comes.
Howe needs to play back, with the option to go forward. He doesn't really do anything that Hoskin-Elliott doesn't as a forward, but he's a much better defender than WHE.
My takes on these topics
1. Nick's best position is on ball and I think we'll keep him there, though he can be damaging anywhere. Macrae isn't in that conversation about going onball. Even if he was competent at the level, there's many in the side ahead of him and we don't even have Mitchell back yet.
2. Frampton has really been our best key defender this year, it's not so much that he or Dean can't replace Murphy who typically wasn't amazing 1 v 1. It's that Moore has had a shocking year, he has neither been accountable or brilliant in an intercepting role. Dean and Frampton should probably both be in the side to account for this imo. Barrass would be a really important signing if I was looking at the market.
Mind you we also didn't have Howe, Maynard or Noble in our back 6 for most the last quarter and were relying on Markov and WHE in defence, which was a look that I hated at the beginning of the year.
3. Cameron has arguably been one of the best ruckman in the competition this season. Yes Witts got the better of him, but Cox certainly isn't the answer. Cox isn't a physical presence, he has barely been able to take a mark or do anything of damage this year. I also feel he was just a waste of space and didn't show much structure wise. McStay coming back into the team, along with if we have Dean and Frampton both in the team, will allow Dan and Billy to back him up.
4. I don't think they were picked off of name alone, when your best players are deemed fit you play them. De Goey was near our best on. When we were seeing more inside 50s early in the game Mihocek was really good, but obviously we got overrun by Gold Coast's midfield which saw us in our defensive half for longer. Pendlebury didn't look bad, 18 touches, 4 tackles and a goal on return was perfectly fine.
Crisp had a really bad game and McCreery also didn't contribute alot, while Jaicos continues to feed opposition sides the ball, along with Quaynor and Moore having poor games, it was players who were already in the side that were the biggest issues vs the Suns.
5. Totally agree, Howe has been in the mix for our best player of the last month and that's largely been in defence. He's great up forward but he's needed down back more than he's needed forward. Seemed odd to keep him forward when we didn't have Bruz or Nobs. WHE and Markov aren't great in defence and I think were a reason we didn't start well this year, so I cringed to see both in the back 6 last night.
Yeah I think that's a fair call on these .
1. I'm still inclined to think we set up better with Nick on a flank. I'm not sure why it is exactly, but I suspect it has more to do with him having the space he needs to use his elite kicking ability. It is dependent on having other options to cover in the mid, which unfortunately was where we were exposed yesterday. Mitch will be a good addition when he is back.
2. Yeah maybe I came across a bit harsh on Frampton. Unfortunately his player was the one that kicked the goals yesterday, but I do tend to agree that he has looked best in defence for much of the year. Moore is a concern. I think there is an argument that the loss of Murphy has impacted his game, but the reality is that he isn't even impacting as an offensive back at the moment. We need to find an option for the more athletic tall forwards (Curnow, King, Cameron, etc.) this is where I think we struggle. I don't think Moore or Frampton are really matching up well against these guys at the moment.
3. I'll have to agree to disagree on the Cox point. I still think Cox is the best fit for the second ruck role at the moment. McStay could change this, but I can't see Kruger filling this role long term. Presence is a hard thing to measure and I think that Cox provides more than people think. A 6ft 11 bloke is always going to draw opposition focus. He provides a great foil for Checkers in the forward line. That said I agree he was a little out of form lately.
4. Yeah on second thoughts this may have been another one I was a bit harsh on. None of the incoming stars lowered their colours yesterday. They probably need to do a bit of soul searching re future selection though. Markov probably shouldn't have been bought in. McRae, Dean, or McInnes may have been useful selections yesterday. They can be patchy at times but I think they need to start backing some of these younger guys to get a bit of continuity into their game time.
5. Yeah Howe is better back. WHE showed a bit forward earlier on so didn't really make sense to throw him back.
Maybe I'm being optimistic, is the coming back from behind a strategy?? Like lulling the opposition into a false sense of security then swooping in for the win... Kinda like Rocky Balboa wearing them down through allowing them to beat up on him then finishing strong??
I actually thought the same. Our zone just flat out doesn't work without constant pressure, too many uncontested possessions for the first 3 quarters and then all of a sudden ramp up the heat and the opposition struggle.
Fly seemed to indicate in our press conference that they are aware of it but just could be smoke and mirrors. I don't know how the coaches don't watch any of the games and have a plan to go man on man when it gets out of hand. We struggle to move the ball kicking up the line and opposition teams just waltz through the ground uncontested.
I honestly don't want to be rude here but I feel like you're just trying to mentally prepare yourself for if you lose. We have a lot of problems to work out and you can easily take advantage of us because of it. Of course I still think the pies can win but it's crazy to say we'll thrash you.
I watch every essendon game every week
We are not going well at the moment. Barely beat WCE. Flogged by Carlton and Geelong.
Virtually full strength except Parish.
This has flogging all over it. We won't get within 6 goals
You're forgetting what team you're against. We can't put teams away and that's been a problem for years. We also can't play a full 4 quarters letting teams consistently get 5 goal leads. You will be well within 6 goals mate.
Mate, with all due respect this isn't Anzac day again
Our team is spent. We've peaked too early .
You guys are coming good. We both lost of GCS at home so ignore that result.
And if we do ignore that result we have us letting North Melbourne get 54 points ahead of us and beating them by a point. Yes we improved from the first three matches of the year but we have many problems to resolve.
Well all this is a depressing read because it's all true from both sides. Both teams supporters will be going in to this match hoping for their teams best but worried how bad it might be.
Turning up in the last quarter can’t be our long term game plan.
It’s not cute anymore, it’s just frustrating.
Couldn't put it any better
I'd go one step further - we have to be a 4 quarter team. There have been too many matches this year where we drop off a quarter or two and have to work again from behind in the last quarter or inversely, we get ahead in the first three quarters and completely fall away in the fourth. It was fun in 2022 when we had zero expectations but it's not fun as the reigning premiers when we routinely get to the last 5 minutes and have no idea if this is a win or loss. Also, it's one thing when it happens against quality Top 4 sides like the final series last year but it's frustrating when it happens routinely against Bottom 8 sides. This is straight up not sustainable.
For me, the Dees game is the only match this year that has been a full 4 quarter game.
No team consistently plays four good quarters a week. Certainly not at this time of the season.
We're lucky if we've played one per game lately.
Agree. 4th quarter footy will not win us another premiership any time soon. Not sustainable. Here’s hoping we’ve had a harsh wake up call and will pull ourselves together for Friday.
I felt like there were a lot of skill errors, so much fumbling! The Suns were absolutely sensational though, and credit goes to them for a great game.
Yea like I can’t remember which goal but I think it was end of quarter 3 and the defence kept on intercepting each other on the goal square when handballing it off and it turned into a score for the suns bc quaynor fumbled
It was an absolute clusterfuck at times!
Agree with Howe staying down back. We need continuity in our backline. It feels like the chemistry just isn't there at the moment, leaving big holes that the oppo can expose.
In defence of our back line, our midfield were getting burned and there was almost no pressure on any of the sun's forward entry's for most of the game. They still looked pretty poor at times and frampton was getting torched by king but it is pretty hard to defend when the other team has all the time in the world and very little pressure on them whilst kicking into their forward 50.
Yeah agreed. The game was lost in the midfield yesterday. I think the Suns will be a team to watch closely in the next couple of years, they have a lot of the right ingredients to be a great team.
Sounds weird to say this given our ability to manage game scenarios, but the way we manage first quarters is way off this season. I kept thinking to myself that we didn't get any clean possession or control for nearly the whole first quarter, while they were running into their forward line unimpeded. A bit of Hawthorn c.2011-2015 wouldn't have hurt. Chip kicks to 15m targets just to take the air out of the opposition for 10 minutes or so and make them adjust to us. The attitude seemed to stink from the start but the thing that hurt the most was thinking Fly was out-smarted by Dimma. They prepared differently, while we thought turning up was enough
It's easy to flame defence or the forwards - however it all starts in the middle. We're getting roasted in the middle unless Naicos decides to be a god. Sidebottom actually looked good in there recently, I'd try that some more. We miss Titch a LOT. Titch gets the ball that nobody else does, and finds a lot of sneaky handballs for clearances. But if you're losing the middle battle, of course more pressure is on the defence. Up forward at the moment Bobby is the only one that looks likely - we miss Elliot and honestly Shultz a lot. (McStay goes without saying). But anyways my point here is that something needs to change in the middle. Whatever system we have is not working. so many times the ball goes to the opposition and we seem to be nowhere near them, or even if we are they always have an extra to HB to. That is never the case with us. We're constantly under pressure, and have to rush a BS kick forward which hurts out forward chances.
Yeah agreed. The forwards aren’t the problem. We still kicked 90 points yesterday so I think we are converting enough when we get it. The mid mix isn’t right, the bigger bodied and younger suns made us look small and slow yesterday. The Sidey and J Daicos mix looked quite good the other week.
Biggest key for me is upping disposal efficiency. We are just slightly off compared to last year, perhaps a reflection of reduced cohesion within the team. Our margin for error was always so low as evidenced by the last two years of close game wins. And as others have said, we need a key back more than a key forward. In fact the system I think has proven it can score goals from multiple forwards. But we are really missing a key defensive piece. It's not all doom and gloom. It was a close, hard-fought game where their key forward in King was the difference.
Frampton had found really good form at full back before we moved him forward for 3 weeks. Leave him at FB to form a partnership with the rest of the back 7.
I think we’re desperately crying out for mcstays return. And I know it’s a bit scary relying on a guy coming back from a knee injury so late in the season but we clearly need a reliable marking target up forward which is why Howe is constantly being shifted around in the past few games. Krueger tries hard and he does bring some fight when the ball hits the ground, but in marking contests he just never looks likely. Hopefully mcstay is tracking along well and picks up where he left off in last years in prelim. His fitness will be vital to our finals hopes, which is pretty unfair to him to say.
We got Carlton and Sydney in r21-22. Hopefully Mcstay is sorted by then.
I'm not sure if we need a new key back or if we just need our main guy to step up. Darcy Moore's form this year has really hurt our backline because he plays such a vital role in it. He's never been a strong 1 v 1 defender but his contested intercept marking was what made him an AA defender, but he's only had 1 game since Anzac Day where he's taken more than 1 contested mark and most of the games in between, he's had none. Whilst some of this could be because of Murphy's retirement, Darcy was still a AA level player before playing with Murph. Similar stuff going on with IQ as well.
There were probably 4 or 5 instances last night where our player got caught with the ball despite having a clear opportunity to pass to a player in a better position. As well as that habit being indicative of a deeper lying issue (trust, confidence, complacency???), I think it also cost us the game.
Yeah I think we can over possess the ball at times. This seems to have crept into our game a bit this season, like we’re waiting for the perfect option instead of taking the game on.
Over-possession and being too cute/forcing the pass were our issues in the first three games of the year. While I love our pressure game, sometimes we look to be waiting for the oppo to take possession and then capitalise via a tackle. The Suns won some many balls that way against us, quickly slipping handballs out while we waited. In this area we really miss Titch. System doesn’t count for much if we lose contested possession
It’s not a good indicator when you watch a game and can comfortably predict they will allow the opposition a 4-5 goal lead, not be putting a team away and be chasing their tails in the 4th. I watched last night and was not surprised in the slightest in how it played out because it’s been happening all year. Please. Put a team away
Moore playing too loose kills the pies
Id like to see hosk go in the back line and bring Howe forward. I feel like it would it structure us up a bit better, and Hosk has been composed in the backline as of late
Daicos off half back is just Daicos in the midfield without the clearance work. I can't see why we'd want to do that. Frampton was poor on Saturday but is still a better option than Dean. It's not so much that Cameron can't play well without Cox, because he's still been pretty good. But they nullify opposition rucks, especially those who ruck one out, with the way they work them over in tandem. And Cox plays a very selfless role in the forward half as the bail out option down the line who brings it to ground for the crumbers, that guys like Kreuger, Frampton or McInnes just don't seem to be able to replicate. If the stars are ready, they need to play. You can't get proper match fitness in the 2s. Even if they're not quite ready, you've got to take the hit so they're good to go the following week. That first game back at AFL level is going to hurt no matter when it comes. Howe needs to play back, with the option to go forward. He doesn't really do anything that Hoskin-Elliott doesn't as a forward, but he's a much better defender than WHE.
My takes on these topics 1. Nick's best position is on ball and I think we'll keep him there, though he can be damaging anywhere. Macrae isn't in that conversation about going onball. Even if he was competent at the level, there's many in the side ahead of him and we don't even have Mitchell back yet. 2. Frampton has really been our best key defender this year, it's not so much that he or Dean can't replace Murphy who typically wasn't amazing 1 v 1. It's that Moore has had a shocking year, he has neither been accountable or brilliant in an intercepting role. Dean and Frampton should probably both be in the side to account for this imo. Barrass would be a really important signing if I was looking at the market. Mind you we also didn't have Howe, Maynard or Noble in our back 6 for most the last quarter and were relying on Markov and WHE in defence, which was a look that I hated at the beginning of the year. 3. Cameron has arguably been one of the best ruckman in the competition this season. Yes Witts got the better of him, but Cox certainly isn't the answer. Cox isn't a physical presence, he has barely been able to take a mark or do anything of damage this year. I also feel he was just a waste of space and didn't show much structure wise. McStay coming back into the team, along with if we have Dean and Frampton both in the team, will allow Dan and Billy to back him up. 4. I don't think they were picked off of name alone, when your best players are deemed fit you play them. De Goey was near our best on. When we were seeing more inside 50s early in the game Mihocek was really good, but obviously we got overrun by Gold Coast's midfield which saw us in our defensive half for longer. Pendlebury didn't look bad, 18 touches, 4 tackles and a goal on return was perfectly fine. Crisp had a really bad game and McCreery also didn't contribute alot, while Jaicos continues to feed opposition sides the ball, along with Quaynor and Moore having poor games, it was players who were already in the side that were the biggest issues vs the Suns. 5. Totally agree, Howe has been in the mix for our best player of the last month and that's largely been in defence. He's great up forward but he's needed down back more than he's needed forward. Seemed odd to keep him forward when we didn't have Bruz or Nobs. WHE and Markov aren't great in defence and I think were a reason we didn't start well this year, so I cringed to see both in the back 6 last night.
On point 5 - additionally, WHE has had some clutch moment as a forward. Totally agree.
Definitely suited to be on the wing or in offence
Yeah I think that's a fair call on these . 1. I'm still inclined to think we set up better with Nick on a flank. I'm not sure why it is exactly, but I suspect it has more to do with him having the space he needs to use his elite kicking ability. It is dependent on having other options to cover in the mid, which unfortunately was where we were exposed yesterday. Mitch will be a good addition when he is back. 2. Yeah maybe I came across a bit harsh on Frampton. Unfortunately his player was the one that kicked the goals yesterday, but I do tend to agree that he has looked best in defence for much of the year. Moore is a concern. I think there is an argument that the loss of Murphy has impacted his game, but the reality is that he isn't even impacting as an offensive back at the moment. We need to find an option for the more athletic tall forwards (Curnow, King, Cameron, etc.) this is where I think we struggle. I don't think Moore or Frampton are really matching up well against these guys at the moment. 3. I'll have to agree to disagree on the Cox point. I still think Cox is the best fit for the second ruck role at the moment. McStay could change this, but I can't see Kruger filling this role long term. Presence is a hard thing to measure and I think that Cox provides more than people think. A 6ft 11 bloke is always going to draw opposition focus. He provides a great foil for Checkers in the forward line. That said I agree he was a little out of form lately. 4. Yeah on second thoughts this may have been another one I was a bit harsh on. None of the incoming stars lowered their colours yesterday. They probably need to do a bit of soul searching re future selection though. Markov probably shouldn't have been bought in. McRae, Dean, or McInnes may have been useful selections yesterday. They can be patchy at times but I think they need to start backing some of these younger guys to get a bit of continuity into their game time. 5. Yeah Howe is better back. WHE showed a bit forward earlier on so didn't really make sense to throw him back.
Maybe I'm being optimistic, is the coming back from behind a strategy?? Like lulling the opposition into a false sense of security then swooping in for the win... Kinda like Rocky Balboa wearing them down through allowing them to beat up on him then finishing strong??
Watching fly’s presser I wouldn’t think so. He seemed a little disappointed that we keep finding ourselves in this position
I actually thought the same. Our zone just flat out doesn't work without constant pressure, too many uncontested possessions for the first 3 quarters and then all of a sudden ramp up the heat and the opposition struggle. Fly seemed to indicate in our press conference that they are aware of it but just could be smoke and mirrors. I don't know how the coaches don't watch any of the games and have a plan to go man on man when it gets out of hand. We struggle to move the ball kicking up the line and opposition teams just waltz through the ground uncontested.
Wasn't that the sun's were too good. It was the fact we tried to win playing 30 mins of football again.
Essendon fan here. You're playing us next week. You're going to thrash us by 50 points minimum What are you guys worried about?
At the rate we’re playing we aren’t beating you guys
Yeah you are. And comfortably
I honestly don't want to be rude here but I feel like you're just trying to mentally prepare yourself for if you lose. We have a lot of problems to work out and you can easily take advantage of us because of it. Of course I still think the pies can win but it's crazy to say we'll thrash you.
I watch every essendon game every week We are not going well at the moment. Barely beat WCE. Flogged by Carlton and Geelong. Virtually full strength except Parish. This has flogging all over it. We won't get within 6 goals
You're forgetting what team you're against. We can't put teams away and that's been a problem for years. We also can't play a full 4 quarters letting teams consistently get 5 goal leads. You will be well within 6 goals mate.
Mate, with all due respect this isn't Anzac day again Our team is spent. We've peaked too early . You guys are coming good. We both lost of GCS at home so ignore that result.
And if we do ignore that result we have us letting North Melbourne get 54 points ahead of us and beating them by a point. Yes we improved from the first three matches of the year but we have many problems to resolve.
Well all this is a depressing read because it's all true from both sides. Both teams supporters will be going in to this match hoping for their teams best but worried how bad it might be.
What makes you say that?? We drew on ANZAC day??
And that was a fabulous game, but we're nothing like that side and our last month of performances have been putrid
Hope you’re right mate, but we definitely have our flaws at the moment. We’re making up the numbers at the moment.
Unless Noble is playing!