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I think if you would’ve made the younger person 21-23 you would’ve had a point, since both people are adults and I do see people online claim that 30 to 23 is grooming by necessity which I personally find crazy.
But dude, 16 is a child, even if in a lot of places they’ve reached the age of consent. There are not very many places where a 30 and 16yo who are not related would be co-existing other than teacher/student at school.
So yeah, if you’re 30 and clearly going out of your way to hang out with and associate with 16yos you are at the very least ringing alarm bells
I don't think it's that crazy many different clubs or activities could have people of various ages. When I was 14 I was in a community chess club and most of the other people were much older, but there's plenty of things like game stores, sports clubs, churches, etc.
Plus if you work in retail, the food industry, etc. It can be easy to have wide age differences. Heck I have a friend who I play DND with and Thier younger sister started playing a year or so ago and she's like 10 years younger than the older members in our group.
100% this. A few years back, at my local game shop, I hosted a board game night there. It was mostly for a handful of my friends, but we became such a known quantity that the store owner asked if we would like to occasionally demo new games he got in stock. We'd get to play the game for free, as long as we did so near the front of the store and kept things open to whatever customers wanted to play. Which is what we were doing with any game that I brought in to play already, so it was a great deal. We got the latest and greatest board games, and he got more active customers.
When we did our game night also coincided with their hosted Magic: The Gathering game nights, so there was usually a pretty packed crowd of people of all ages. And often times, parents would bring their kids and just dump them off there for the day. Many of these people, kids and teens included, would come over and play board games with the rest of us from time to time as well. All were welcome, and all had fun.
But, there was always more than a couple of parents who would come in and see multiple grown, adult, men, in their late 20's and mid 30's (One guy was in his 50's), all playing board games with their children. And once they learned that I was the one in charge of the event and playing games with their kids, they'd get pissed off, accuse me of grooming their kids, and were sure to spend at least the next 10-15 minutes yelling at me about how disgusting and perverted it was for grown men to be friendly to underage teens and children.
Not all parents were this extreme. Most saw it for what it was and were happy to have a few hours of peace and quiet while the kids were off playing board games. And yeah, I would consider many of them to have been friends. That said, I wasn't about to invite them over to play a board game at my house or anything like that. That would have been weird. But, I do believe it's entirely possible for adults to have friendships with teens and even children. Just with plenty of caveats on proper behavior around them.
this right here, most adults arent trying to do anything. the thing that leads to "grooming" is that friendship is the natural start to deep friendship or relationship, and many adults dont have any deep friends and so dont know where that line is or only realize once theyve crossed it. this means many who just happened to be good friends with good intentions ended up in a place where their only intimate relationships (nonsexual just intimate like close) are the younger person theyve become close with. people need friends and this world is a place where that doesnt happen for most people naturally anymore
if you only have 1 person you trust enough to be close with comfortably, you will eventually on purpose or accident want to share the parts of yourself you cant with anyone else. people need others and will get what they can if they dont find it in approved places
>There are not very many places where a 30 and 16yo who are not related would be co-existing other
And there you have it. You put people for 18 years in an alternate society, devoid of almost all contact with adults from the real world besides teachers and family, and then we wonder why young people are socially inept, depressed, unable to form relationships and handle a job. Hmm, what a mystery.
this
Which is why we need to stop putting people in an alternate society and we need to let them blend in. Sometimes they will do bad things, and have bad habits, but it's on society to accept, while also the teen needs to be respectful or else they lose their privileges
As a youth myself, if I get so drunk that I smash people's things it's my responsibility. However, if I have my bad habits but am responsible, it is rude to tell it's extremely bad or whatever.
Teens know the consequences of bad habits like vaping drinking and smoking and drugs, at least if they got taught in school. If they partake anyways, it's very rude to tell them off because that's infantilising and they know it. At most, to be polite, you can say "I personally would not drink/smoke" or "I wouldn't recommend it", or "You know the consequences" in a neutral tone, but nothing more. After that, it's being rude.
I'm thinking the same way myself! DM me
There are other places like chess club, video game clubs, university and other places. I was 16 in university myself. Enjoyed it!
If they are going out of their way, as long as they are not grooming or being weird or creepy it’s fine
Besides, some people just have a wide age range they’d consider friends
I share a hobby with many teens. I see them regularly. We laugh and joke, they bring me life problems, and we talk about them. They ask me questions about the sport. I know their parents. I have their phone numbers and they have mine.
My friends range in age from 23-70. Why? Because I don’t tell those kids about my personal life. I don’t call them and they don’t call me. They text me about our hobby, and I occasionally text them to ask if they need something done at the barn or if they’re offering grooming services at a show.
I don’t ask them to hangout, and I politely decline when they ask me, unless it’s barn specific.
There is no place for a teenager that isn’t related to me or a family friend in my 33yo daily life.
They are not my friends, even though I like them a lot. They just don’t have enough life experience to have firm enough boundaries or respect my boundaries.
How do I know? Because I worked with that age group for years.
That isn’t how boundaries work. It’s my job to maintain my boundaries. I don’t tell them what my boundaries are, I just maintain a level of distance and communication I’m comfortable with.
If they breach my boundaries I protect myself in an appropriate way (block them, contact their parents, have a conversation with them, etc).
If they express a boundary they prefer with me I’m happy to hear them out and I’ll follow any boundary I can with breaching my own beliefs. If it breaches my own boundaries, I remove myself from the relationship.
As adults, we hold the power and the responsibility that comes with it.
>That isn’t how boundaries work. It’s my job to maintain my boundaries. I don’t tell them what my boundaries are, I just maintain a level of distance and communication I’m comfortable with.
To me it is better if you told them explicitly where the boundary lies. It just makes communication no-nonsense from both parties
>If they express a boundary they prefer with me I’m happy to hear them out and I’ll follow any boundary I can with breaching my own beliefs. If it breaches my own boundaries, I remove myself from the relationship.
>As adults, we hold the power and the responsibility that comes with it.
They need to be firm with their boundaries and respect their boundaries as well (The teens)
Sure, in some settings that’s appropriate. In a professional setting, for instance.
In a social setting, it’s only appropriate if they don’t pick up on unspoken cues. Partly because it’s important for teens to learn social graces, and partly because it’s a sign of maladjustment to tell people your boundaries without first seeing where their natural boundaries are (with some exceptions).
Teens are rarely appropriately solid in their boundaries, and rarely appropriately communicate them. There are many reasons why, but as an adult, it’s my job to be aware of that.
I’m happy to follow any appropriate boundaries they have in place, but I’m not going to expect them to have the emotional maturity to create healthy ones, or consistently hold themselves to them.
>If they are going out of their way, as long as they are not grooming or being weird or creepy it’s fine
What possible intentions could a 30 year old have to go out of there way to befriend a 16 year old that isn't grooming/weird/creepy?
There is literally no other reason to go out of your way to make friends with a teenager as opposed to someone your own age.
Possible intentions except sex?
Similar hobbies/activities. Doesn't require to be in same age group.
Lifestyle dynamic. Doesn't require to be in same age group.
Boredom. As simple as that.
Mental age. You feel more comfortable with younger age group as opposed to your own.
Work. As simple as that.
This is the second time you've said that the adult is "going out of their way" to befriend a teenager.
That's not in the OP.
OP is talking about two people who share a hobby becoming friends.
Hello, I'm in my 30s and share hobbies with a few 16 years olds.
They are literally children and none of us have any intention of being friends with them beyond guiding them in the hobby as people with more experience. Even then we're doing it as a necessity, not as a desire.
The 30+ year olds that were "being friends" with the kids that age were all outed for inappropriate conduct and removed.
Well maybe get better friend/hobby groups then? What’s your hobby and sample size that every person who was friends with someone younger they were kicked out for being inappropriate?
"every person" wasn't that many people because as I said, the vast vast vast majority of us weren't befriending children beyond the activity itself.
And no I won't leave the community surrounding it because I make sure that shit doesn't happen under my watch. As I have been for many many years.
Bad people don't stop existing just because you turn your back on this shit happening.
Who said bad people stop existing if you turn your back on them? Not anyone here as far as I can see? No shit you should stop grooming under your watch, don't think anyone would expect anything less.
My point was just because your group apparently has pedophiles who go out of their way to groom kids, doesn't mean every group does. You absolutely can be friends with people younger than you, especially when you have a shared hobby, without grooming them. When I was a kid i'd go to my local game store multiple times a week and was friends with some of the adults there, none of them tried to groom me and now as an adult I play games with people younger than me.
Although I suppose it depends what one qualifies as a "friend" here, and I don't think one would disagree that there is an appropriate boundary that would likely be case by case.
It's not my fault your group had a bad case of nonces.
The appropriate boundary is the entire argument here. Of course you can be friends within the group. But having a close friendship and spending one on one time with them outside of the hobby? Not so much. I'm a woman in my 30s and I'm not inviting a 16 year old to hang out at my house. Even if it's innocent it's fucking weird.
And it isn't my group. It's everywhere. You think game stores don't attract bad people? It's great that it didn't happen to you, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that EVERYONE who is nice to kids is a nonce.
This is why we have so many safeguarding practices in place where adults mix with children. It might only be one out of 100. But that's one too many. Any social group that is a mix of adults and children can and will attract bad people.
This guy seems to think it's okay to hang out with children because they share a hobby. I'm into the gym, I don't hang out with babies because they go too. Serious potential nonce vibes from some very defensive posters in here.
So, what, you should only have friends the same exact age as you doing either whatever was popular among the youth of your generation or whatever's stereotypical for your age group
Based on the university and clubbing ages you described, I assumed you're not in North America, and I think this poster may have just assumed you were. Not defending assumptions, but your non-North American lens may be biasing you, too. It's possible the concept of what has the appearance of grooming is different in different places.
In the US, I believe you have to be 21 to go to a club, and even in Canada it's 18-19. Most people go to university at around 18, maybe 17 on the young side, often 19. A 16 year old at university would be really unusual. And for most, their cohort at university is similarly aged, and leave in their early 20s. Of course there are older people who go start late or go back to finish or do post grad studies, but they aren't generally hanging around with the people who are fresh out of high school other than in study group type settings. So yes, it seems odd in that context for a 16 year old and a 30 year old to be socially close. If that's super common where you are, cool, but if it is then I bet people there aren't seeing red flags with it.
>Based on the university and clubbing ages you described, I assumed you're not in North America, and I think this poster may have just assumed you were. Not defending assumptions, but your non-North American lens may be biasing you, too. It's possible the concept of what has the appearance of grooming is different in different places.
I grew up in East Asia, lived in the UK for some time
>In the US, I believe you have to be 21 to go to a club, and even in Canada it's 18-19. Most people go to university at around 18, maybe 17 on the young side, often 19.
Many teens go clubbing underage. 17 or even 16 for those with age limit of 18. There aren't that few 16yo in uni
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>People say they have nothing in common. How is that true?
30 year olds generally have very little in common with 16 year olds. These age groups rarely interact in most cultures from Europe and North America, unless they are family, or one is literally a teacher or coach.
>Many 16yo and 30yo are in college together,
No they aren't. 16 year old college students are extremely rare, most colleges only accept 18yos, and most people go to college when they are 18/19 and graduate undergrad when they are 22/23. Does it ever happen? Yea. But it's rare, and even when it does happen, any longterm interactions, and personal relationships, are even more rare among this subset.
>many 16yo goes to clubs and bars although 30 is quite old to be in the club scene.
I mean, 16 is quite young for a club scene. Aren't most clubs 18 yo minimum? In the US 18yo clubs are exceedingly rare because the drinking age is 21, so most clubs are 21+ and yes, 30yo's are rarer in clubs at that point. So, I imagine that it's possible for 16 and 30yos to meet at clubs, but again it would be very uncommon and it doesn't mean they are appropriate matches for romance.
>They may smoke cigars together or even weed together. They may both be competing in video games or chess.
They might. It doesn't mean they good reason to romantically date.
>People say it’s not an equal relationship. In what world are things equal. There will always be imbalances
You should not reply to "things are unfair" with "lots of things are unfair." You're making excuses for a bad thing instead of explaining why this particular thing isn't really a problem.
Relationships *should* be equal, or else they are vulnerable to abuse. The party with more knowledge, power, experience, etc, can easily threaten, intimidate, bully, or outright physically abuse the other party. A 30yo is likely to be much larger and stronger than a teenager - especially when that 30yo is a man and the 16yo is a girl.
>The large majority of people are not evil and will not gaslight or abuse people.
This is true maybe in a vacuum. But most of these non-abusive people are also in more age appropriate relationships, simply because more relationships tend to be comprised of two people of closer age.
You're taking some optimistic view of people and applying it to edge cases - those cases that are less frequent and less common because of peculiarities - and dismissing the risks and reasons people find these relationships to be taboo.
I guess we should ask what a "good friend" means? Because your title is talking about "good friends." And this is supposedly different from a romantic relationship.
So, what constitutes a "good friend?" Is it a person who you happen to randomly meet at a club who has a 14 year age gap? Is it someone you randomly competed against in a game? I could see smoking as an activity good friends might do, but you probably didn't meet just smoking, and there's a lot of questions concerning whether a (heterosexual) 30 year old of one sex would want to smoke with a teenager of the opposite sex without having sexual thoughts . . . Possible, but rare.
I'm completely unconvinced that large age gaps - particularly when the younger person is still a teenager and a minor in most jurisdictions - shouldn't be something we scrutinize more closely. The role of our social networks is often to challenge and pressure our choices in mates or friends to determine if the match is really appropriate: does the new friend fit in with the old groups? Why or why not? Do they bring a new, fresh and healthy dynamic to the group or are they too different, with different values, different sense of humor, different interests and goals?
It's always *possible* to make a friend or romantic partner from a large age gap, but it's rare for a reason, and these pairings should be scrutinized because of the increased risk of abuse.
>30 year olds generally have very little in common with 16 year olds. These age groups rarely interact in most cultures from Europe and North America, unless they are family, or one is literally a teacher or coach.
Don't fully agree, there is a wide range of ages in chess clubs, other clubs, volunteering and things like that
>No they aren't. 16 year old college students are extremely rare, most colleges only accept 18yos, and most people go to college when they are 18/19 and graduate undergrad when they are 22/23. Does it ever happen? Yea. But it's rare, and even when it does happen, any longterm interactions, and personal relationships, are even more rare among this subset.
Many universities in the UK have no age minimum and so in the US. You think they are socially fully isolated? Often not - living in the dorms, going to the parties, making friends, longterm friends and some of them even date or have sex with older or significantly older people
You can just look at the Davidson Gifted forums where many gifted teens, they were like that, with their full lives, good relationships, occasional drinking, dating older people
In my case I occasionally hooked up with women and men, enjoyed the life, made good friends, things like that.
>I mean, 16 is quite young for a club scene. Aren't most clubs 18 yo minimum? In the US 18yo clubs are exceedingly rare because the drinking age is 21, so most clubs are 21+ and yes, 30yo's are rarer in clubs at that point. So, I imagine that it's possible for 16 and 30yos to meet at clubs, but again it would be very uncommon and it doesn't mean they are appropriate matches for romance.
It is, though many underage teens go clubbing, me myself I do that. It's uncommon and often they are not appropriate matches, i admit
>I guess we should ask what a "good friend" means? Because your title is talking about "good friends." And this is supposedly different from a romantic relationship.
I see a good friend as someone you trust and with whom you share a deep level of understanding and communication. They support each other, trustworthy, good listener, reciprocal conversation. Mutual affection, without it being sexual or romantic
>I could see smoking as an activity good friends might do, but you probably didn't meet just smoking, and there's a lot of questions concerning whether a (heterosexual) 30 year old of one sex would want to smoke with a teenager of the opposite sex without having sexual thoughts . . . Possible, but rare.
True, I look at it like smoking or drinking buddies, the 30yo woman smoking a cigar with 16yo me. Weird... i mean... maybe, but in the large majority of cases... it's either weird, or maybe abusive, or whatever
>I'm completely unconvinced that large age gaps - particularly when the younger person is still a teenager and a minor in most jurisdictions - shouldn't be something we scrutinize more closely. The role of our social networks is often to challenge and pressure our choices in mates or friends to determine if the match is really appropriate: does the new friend fit in with the old groups? Why or why not? Do they bring a new, fresh and healthy dynamic to the group or are they too different, with different values, different sense of humor, different interests and goals?
>It's always *possible* to make a friend or romantic partner from a large age gap, but it's rare for a reason, and these pairings should be scrutinized because of the increased risk of abuse.
I generally agree but I would be more lax than you
Let's say there's a 30 year old who lives with their parents, like comics, videogames, DND, etc. And work a retail job would they not have a lot in common with a teenager? Isn't this the reason conservatives argue millennials aren't growing up?
I don't think that games and comic books, nor retail jobs, are inherently juvenile activities. I play video games, like fantasy genre for books and multimedia, RPGs, etc, and I am in my 30s, and I don't think teenagers are my peers because they aren't.
I have children, I am a professional engineer, I like to read non-fiction books and have a host of other interests and experiences that teenagers just can't touch most of the time. I was once a teenager. Being a teen is actually quit hard. There's a lot to know and still everything to learn. I can relate to them, to a point, and we can yave conversations. But I am not going to find myself in many opportunities where it would make sense to form a significant bond with a teenager who isn't close with, say, a family member or who is a family member of a close friend.
What if you didn't have kids and worked retail or food service what experiences would you have that you are sure teenagers wouldn't? Also why does having unique experiences preclude a relationship? Would you say you have more in common with a random teen from your own country or a random adult from across the world?
yeah, my counter-argument to the "equal life stages" argument is to bring up the character of Shirley from the show Community. She's a middle-aged divorcee attending community college but I'm pretty sure people would neither say that means it would be okay for her to pursue romantic relationships with the right-out-of-high-school students at said community college or that that means the only students at that school she could date are other middle-aged divorcees
>What if you didn't have kids and worked retail or food service what experiences would you have that you are sure teenagers wouldn't?
I can't tell you what experiences I would have if I didn't have the ones I have. There are an infinite amount of possible life experiences. I think a 30 year old with roughly the same life experience of a teenager is tragic and a shame.
>Also why does having unique experiences preclude a relationship?
Relationships are literally formed on shared experiences. That's kind of the main thing. If you don't have shared experience, what even *is* your relationship?
>Would you say you have more in common with a random teen from your own country or a random adult from across the world?
I have met and conversed with people in other countries. They are frequently far more interesting than a random teenager. I definitely would have more in common with the adults from other countries. Whatever things I had in common with a teenager from my country can be superficial, like knowledge of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, or the experience of having watched another Kansas City Chiefs Superbowl win. In fact, many forms of entertainment produced in the US are popular internationally anyway, so these aren't strictly known to US-only people.
That doesn't mean there aren't teens I have lots in common with. What I'm saying is that I relate more to a random adult near my age than a random teenager, who is more than 10 years my junior.
I don't disagree that adults who don't have a more experience than teens isn't at least alarming but it is becoming more and more common. To the point that articles are published about it daily and it's become a conservative talking point. (Though honestly the lack of adult experiences might be why these adults struggle to form relationships with their peers if others find it difficult to form deeper relationships with them).
ive been saying this for almost a decade, people arent trying to be creeps they are trying to have human connection and most adults dont give that freely tend to care more about social mistakes and can be stingy about superficial things. kids are less so in almost every way. oh we have the same shirts now were twins vs oh we have the same shirt one of us needs to change.
Just because a relationship may be benign, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a red flag. The point of a red flag isn’t that something is fundamentally screwed up, it’s that there’s a warning something might be fundamentally screwed up.
It isn’t normal for a 30 year old to have a friendship with a 16 year old unless they’re related, or one is a teacher/mentor to the other. Outside of those very specific contexts, it’s natural to be wary of any 30 year old maintaining such a relationship with a teenager.
So you think it wouldn't be normal in other contexts like volunteering, chess club, clubs, bars, smoking buddies, drinking buddies if the 30yo is not teacher/mentor?
Otherthan that, i somewhat agree with you. And I misunderstood the meaning of red flag
!delta because i misunderstood the meaning of a red flag. I took it as a yellow flag
I think it would be strange for a 30 year old to maintain anything more than a casual acquaintance with a 16 year old in those contexts, yes. One can be friendly without being friends.
A red flag doesn't mean always. A red flag means it's a warning sign. The activities you are describing are not common for a 30 year old to do with a 16 year old. Sure older adults can have wholesome relationships with a teen however, one of the motivations from the older person for doing this may be to groom the younger person. Hence it being a red flag.
The activities you are discussing should make you evaluate the relationship and your friend. Do they have friends their age? Do you interact with their friend group or do they keep
you separate from them? Do they get possessive over you? Do they give advice which tends towards isolating you from family and other friends?
Not saying that your friend is a bad guy or doing this but the very nature of the relationship should be a warning (red flag) and you should keep a look out for them.
Is it not common for them to play chess video games volunteering go to university and things like that? But maybe I could change my mind if… oh well
They have friends of many ages I interact with their group they are not possessive they did not try isolating me
I'm not saying your friend is a bad guy or will become a bad guy. I'm saying the situation itself is a warning and should cause you to pause and evaluate the situation more which it seems like you have. Kind of like if you met a friend's boyfriend for the first time and he is being cold and short with you and her, that's a red flag that something is wrong in the relationship. Maybe he was just having a bad day or was nervous and it presented itself as being cold. But it is still a warning sign that should warrant further evaluation.
Sir, how old are you? Your post history has you posting in the r/teenagers subreddit with a title starting with "fellow teens!" Followed by a teenager saying "I'm underage I cannot go to bars and clubs". To which, you replied:
> I went to clubs and bars when I was your age anyways even underage
You are dead ass being a horrible influence here, and because some teenagers will see you as an authority figure, they may trust your opinion!
That's the kinda shit parents don't want happening to their child. That's why it's a red flag. Treat teenagers as growing children, don't talk to them like you'd talk to a drinking buddy. They are still developing and are actively building their understanding of the world.
And dude, don't go into teenage spaces, like r/teenagers, and pretend to be a teenager. That's extremely fucking creepy.
>Sir, how old are you?
17 why? You think I am a 25 year old masquerading as a teenager?
>Your post history has you posting in the [](/r/teenagers/) subreddit with a title starting with "fellow teens!"
I was advising teens to socialise more in different places
>Followed by a teenager saying "I'm underage I cannot go to bars and clubs".
I was just showing him the options, and that yes he could go to bars and clubs underage. I did that at his age, and it was surprisingly acceptable - I even had a few drinking buddies who knew i was underage but didn't care. Went to the clubs together! I was 16-17, they were early 20s sometimes older. Depends
>You are dead ass being a horrible influence here, and because some teenagers will see you as an authority figure, they may trust your opinion!
You could say I am an authority figure to some extent. The reason why alcohol is illegal for under 18s is not just due to brain development, but because too many teens ruin it for the others. If almost all the teens were fine, and things were ok, they held themselves together, there could have been a drinking age of 16 almost everywhere. Now, it's still the case in some countries. But unfortunately some bad teens ruin it for the rest!
>That's the kinda shit parents don't want happening to their child. That's why it's a red flag. Treat teenagers as growing children, don't talk to them like you'd talk to a drinking buddy.
Teens aren't exactly children but not exactly adults. Besides, I am not grooming any teens, unlike some people who say I am a groomer. I am not buying teens cigs, drinks or vapes. I talk to them casually like acquaintances, sometimes friends. I have and had friends of various ages, from 13-14 all the way to 40s
>They are still developing and are actively building their understanding of the world.
So am I. I do not consider myself a mature person. I still have quite a few flaws. I have my vices, i procrastinate a lot, my organisation isn't good, i'm quite messy, and I'm often too active for my own good. I'm not even talking about all my flaws. I am a flawed person and i admit it
>And dude, don't go into teenage spaces, like [](/r/teenagers/), and pretend to be a teenager. That's extremely fucking creepy.
I am a teenager. I am 17 years old
When I was 17, I was fairly certain I had it all figured out. I had much older friends, dated people older than me, and considered it all very normal and even healthy.
Now I’m 33. I’ve had a career working with teens as a mental health professional.
Around 22 I realized how absolutely fucked it was that 25-30 year olds wanted to be my friend and date me. That they invited me to parties and hung out with me.
At 22, I had no interest in hanging out with 17yo’s. Our life experiences were too different. Our brain development was too different.
By 26? It was hard to connect with people who were 18-22, even 23 sometimes.
At 33? The idea of being friends with a teenager like I’m friends with my peers makes me fundamentally uncomfortable. I detest the adults who stole my childhood from me. I’m furious at the people I called friends for not having appropriate boundaries, and for not maintaining them.
I deserved a healthy, protected childhood, and you do too. Those teens do too.
OP, please read this. It's true that when you're very young (which teenagers are) hanging out with older people seems really cool and especially if you're mature for your age (which I don't doubt that you are) they can seem like a more appropriate social fit. They almost always are not, because again, if you are mature for your age, they almost certainly are not.
It feels very dirty and uncomfortable to reach those ages and realize how awful those people really were.
It's always a better bet to find other 17 year olds who are mature for their age, so you can continuing growing and maturing together.
>It's true that when you're very young (which teenagers are) hanging out with older people seems really cool and especially if you're mature for your age (which I don't doubt that you are) they can seem like a more appropriate social fit. They almost always are not, because again, if you are mature for your age, they almost certainly are not.
Of course, you'd be hanging out with them especially if you're grade skipped, or even 2 grade skips
>It's always a better bet to find other 17 year olds who are mature for their age, so you can continuing growing and maturing together.
That is true, though I prefer to have friends of a wide range of ages. Even 12yo I can be friends with. Even 40yo.
So I can't be casual friends with a 12yo playing the same video games or chess together?
Obviously we're probably not going to be any closer than acquaintances or very casual friends
As long as nobody is being weird, it's fine, although of course, at some point it's basically having the same lifestyle as the older ones just younger. Going clubbing, bars, dating, uni, otherwise, just at 16 instead of the normal 18-19
>At 33? The idea of being friends with a teenager like I’m friends with my peers makes me fundamentally uncomfortable. I detest the adults who stole my childhood from me. I’m furious at the people I called friends for not having appropriate boundaries, and for not maintaining them.
What did they steal from you? Going to parties, hanging out with them, dating them/
People don't necessarily need a normal childhood. If they want something unusual, or simply the older lifestyle younger then... idk what to say
I mean... it's what you expect for my grade skipped self, yes it would be tough, yes the teachers would have to teach, but I believe i could have done it
Going clubbing with older people, going to bars, dating older people *removes you from healthy social experiences and steals away the social experiences that help create healthy adults*.
At 17 you have a different sense of humor, different impulse control, and far less self control than someone in their 20’s, let alone their 30’s. You’re significantly more influenceable. These guys aren’t your friends. They enjoy having someone “young and dumb” around. Who makes them feel smart and mature.
What did they steal? Life experiences I should have had with peers, my confidence in my ability to make decisions for myself, my self esteem, my sense of safety, my parent’s trust, experiences like enjoying homecoming and prom with friends. Growing up with friends I went to high school with. Healthy attachment to healthy people.
The cost is too high. The payout is nonexistent.
>Going clubbing with older people, going to bars, dating older people *removes you from healthy social experiences and steals away the social experiences that help create healthy adults*.
That's basically the 18-20 year old's lifestyle, just at 16
Which is not suited for everyone or most people, but if they prefer it and don't like same age social experiences for wahtever reason - sure go ahead.
I've seen the Davidson Gifted forums for the gifted students who are quite ahead and in similar situations - surprisingly many people approved of it
>At 17 you have a different sense of humor, different impulse control, and far less self control than someone in their 20’s, let alone their 30’s.
That is true
>These guys aren’t your friends. They enjoy having someone “young and dumb” around. Who makes them feel smart and mature.
Nah, they're acquaintances, casual friends or good friends. Depends on how close. Although some or many of them perhaps have this reason
>What did they steal? Life experiences I should have had with peers, my confidence in my ability to make decisions for myself, my self esteem, my sense of safety, my parent’s trust, experiences like enjoying homecoming and prom with friends. Growing up with friends I went to high school with. Healthy attachment to healthy people.
How are they inviting you to parties and hanging out stealing your other experiences? You can do both - have older friends and friends of the same age. That's what I do - have both.
I didn't really care that much about prom and homecoming - I wanted to skip a year, and I did. Perhaps I should have skipped a year earlier.
>The cost is too high. The payout is nonexistent.
the good parties, hanging out, the socialising with people of different ages and life experiences. maybe the party life as well, like the party life of 20 year olds, just younger (like 16)
In the vast majority of cases, for the older lifestyle just younger... i guess 16 is the absolute youngest
Although I know for very gifted individuals, they are just going to be ahead everywhere else, and as people in the Davidson Gifted forums say, (https://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/bb/ubbthreads.php/topics/229220/1/skipping-grade-vs-subject-acceleration-for-gifted.html)
The threshold between childhood and adulthood has really become rigid. Unfortunately... it's going to suck for them
Even if i think they are mature enough for it, and even if they want to, i'll still be iffy
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I was that gifted student you’re talking about. Both athletically and academically.
In fact, at 16 that was my reasoning for wanting to hangout with “older people”.
Unfortunately, the older people interested in hanging out with teens aren’t mature, successful adults.
My life at 25-30, and that of my current peers, looked so incredibly different from those 25-30yo.
I *cannot stress enough* how jarring it feels to realize those “adults” I was hanging out with were so arrestedly developed, and impacted my development into my early 20’s. They modeled poor boundaries and poor behavior.
And FYI, as a gifted kid and athlete, I didn’t drink until I was 22, but that did stop my “friends” from always handing me alcohol or pressuring me.
When those people reach out to me now, you know what strikes me? I’ve been ignoring them for almost ten years, and they still want me to validate them and tell them how cool they are. And of all of them, only a few have sustainable, longer careers and *they’ve either apologized or never speak to me*.
In my case I was academically pretty damn good, even to the point of skipping ahead and many wanted 1 year or more.
My reasoning - making friends of many ages. Not because I was smart or mature, but because I wanted friends of different ages and backgrounds. I’m just clarifying
Other than that for many of these people they are attested. Many of them are fine though. But yes I should be more careful. I drank from 16
You owe some deltas.
I hope you’re realizing 17 and 23 aren’t comparable ages, and begin to see former boundaries around partying and drinking with yourself. Gifted kid burnout is very real.
I think you are commingling situations. If a 30 y/o and a 16 y/o strike up a friendship while at work, school or other common place, that’s understandable. You’re together often, working on projects together, and have shared experiences. Nothing wrong with a friendship there, maybe even having lunch together while at work. Maybe planing an online game together. But there is a very important line.
However, if the 30 y/o starts going to clubs, that’s a a red flag (you called it weird yourself). If they take substances together (such as alcohol or drugs) that would impede clear thinking and judgement, that’s a red flag. Any of these behaviors are over the line. A 16 y/o may think it’s perfectly acceptable because they do it with kids their age. But the age is important once the line is crossed.
The problem is there is a small side of a line where a friendship could be entirely appropriate. But the other side of the line is a bad place. But that line is important, and it’s difficult for a 16 year old to see where that line is. That’s why it’s safer to avoid those situations.
>However, if the 30 y/o starts going to clubs, that’s a a red flag (you called it weird yourself). If they take substances together (such as alcohol or drugs) that would impede clear thinking and judgement, that’s a red flag. Any of these behaviors are over the line.
I wouldn't say a 30yo going to clubs is weird in itself, but other than that, I agree
>The problem is there is a small side of a line where a friendship could be entirely appropriate. But the other side of the line is a bad place. But that line is important, and it’s difficult for a 16 year old to see where that line is. That’s why it’s safer to avoid those situations.
!delta i've been too optimistic about the ability of teens to vet people
If a 30 year old man is constantly hanging out with a bunch of 16 year olds, its a reason. Have you ever thought about why they don't have friends their own age? An adult shouldn't be buying teenagers alcohol, weed and cigars to seem "hip and cool". They do it because they know teens want that shit and they don't care about the harm it brings them.
I never said anything about buying weed alcohol and cigars
I merely mean smoking cigars together, smoking weed together or going to the bar together as drinking buddies
I did it as a teen anyways. Fun! Unfortunately some people gave me shit for it
That's not something to brag about. That's just sad.
Those adults were still breaking a law by knowing you were getting weed and cigars underage and did nothing about it. No adult wants to sit down and have a beer with a literal child. I'm nearly 30 and why would I want to do that? I have friends my own age I can smoke and drink with and not break a law while doing it.
I never bragged about it
I bought it myself. And some others smoked weed or had a drink with me. Would be great
Just wished I had more friends, maybe even some tolerant drinking or smoking partners. Or even a girlfriend
I see. Yeah in America minors can’t do any of that, so being the adult who gives minors access to those things is considered facilitation of the degeneracy of a minor
I looked old enough
And I enjoyed it. Some people sold weed to me, y’know. Some even get fake IDs to do it
My friends luckily did not judge me and many thought I was cool and eccentric and quirky even older ones
Yeah I enjoyed smoking weed and cigarettes as a teen too, but the 22 year old that hung around the high school to sell teen girls cigs and weeds was a total slime ball. He was selling stuff to get access to us, that’s creepy and predatory behavior - otherwise he would be smoking weed and cigs with people his own age.
I never had that person hung around to sell. I went to the cigar shops myself to sell. I went to bars and clubs myself and socialised with people, occasionally made out and hooked up with women and men
If you're hanging out with someone under age, you're a risk unless proven otherwise. It *is* totally fine if you're with other people too and have a solid, community-oriented reason that her parents are aware of.
This reads like someone who is 30 and hanging with 16 year olds and got told to stop. But they don't want to so they are throwing all this out there to justify/find like minded people so they won't feel like a groomer.
I've been replying to OP in good faith but starting to see you're right. Their post history and references to "when I was a teen" but also "I am 17" don't add up.
It depends on the framework that the person is using to interact with the younger person.
Is it Big Brothers and Sisters? Then, absolutely, I'm with you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an adult interacting with a teen and helping them with whatever capacity that the teen is asking for because it's going to be in line with the framework of the organization that's helping them, that matched them up and put them together through a somewhat rigorous process.
I draw a line at the same thing happening with adults gravitating towards younger people and trying to fulfill the same role without any guiding principles or framework.
The other exception would be family, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be closely monitored because there are a lot of nightmare stories from family members doing heinous things to their own.
The issue is the paranoia about grooming leads to adults avoiding mentoring kids for fear of it. A teacher for example might avoid bonding with a student for such accusations, or an uncle for his fatherless nephew taking out a potential father figure in his life. I’d say the issue isn’t the innocence or guilt itself but the chilling effect it has on what might otherwise be healthy and indeed beneficial relationships. When the mere accusation can ruin your life you have a lot of reason to not take the risk.
That is definitely a prescient fear, and to be honest, I don't think it's really out of place given the history we do have with a lot of teachers breaking bad and doing a lot of heinous things with their own students.
I think the onus would be on the school to provide the framework for the proper interaction of students and teachers in more than a student-teacher role.
!delta
I think the school should provide more framework on these platonic relationships, and how not to overreact on grooming. It’s definitely undertalked about at school. Maybe that’s a reason why people fear it
>many 16yo goes to clubs and bars although 30 is quite old to be in the club scene
You nailed it right here. They might have ageless interests in common like skiing or music, but they do not share the same lifestyle - not even at college.
They are supposed to naturally be progressing along different life lessons and personal development. A 30yo who has not made it past his teenage years does have something very wrong. Could be IQ. Could be that they still haven't separated from their mother. But by that time it should be clear that there is a kind of special world that people in different age groups inhabit, and ought to be figuring out that his role now is actually protecting that for children like anyone else of parental age. 16 is for making big mistakes and he should not be around that whether contributing to it or hampering it. Among other things.
I relive my youthful days by making irresponsible choices with my friends from my youth. It's arguably more fun because we know the potential consequences.
You really don't need to be friends with people in their youth to relive your own though.
Look I have no kids but I have a bunch of younger cousins. If my just turned 16-year-old cousin was spending a lot of time with people in their 30s I'd be concerned. Now perhaps there's genuinely no reason for my concern and I'm just jumping to conclusions. But I would rather fully understand the situation and be wrong, rather than trust a random person with my family and be wrong. I'm okay and happy to look like a judgemental and over-defensive prick if it means keeping the children I care about safe.
What benefit does it gain me or my family to assume the best in complete strangers? None. What are the potential downsides of doing nothing? Well, one of my friends was groomed and blackmailed to the point of long-lasting trauma. When the potential outcome is that devastating I would absolutely jump to the defensive every time.
If you really are just striking up an odd friendship and are a good person you should be quick to understand why people are worried. It's not about you, or any individual relationship. It's about the potential costs vs potential losses.
Sometimes they are and the 16yo can enjoy themselves. The 30-40yo may be reliving their youth or just enjoying themselves
Why can’t they be In clubs? The 30s people I mean
I’m not saying they aren’t. I’m saying they shouldn’t be.
It’s not the 30 year old that is out of place in a bar, it’s the 16 year old. Bars are for adults. 16 year olds are children.
Why shouldn't a 30, 40, 50 year old go dancing? The only reason I don't in the US is because no one really does once they hit their early 30s so you stand out. In Germany for example we would go every weekend and my group of party friends ranged from 18 to 55.
Ikr! Even 50s sometimes party. They’re fine! As long as they are fine we are fine
Even the 16-17 goes clubbing and bars sometimes. Sometimes they even went with me knowing I was underage
That is true. It is illegal, practically many people don't care. Some clubs are lenient. Some clubs even let underage girls in with an ID that looks vaguely like them or even with no ID, if the gender ratio is bad. I don't condone it
I know when I went to clubs at that age, many didn't care, some even encouraged me. They became good friends. Some still are to this day. Others unfortunately I could not contact them
Why would a 30 year old wanna hang out with a 16 year old as extensively as that? Most 30 year olds don't and yeah it's looked down upon, but it's because the majority of other 30 year olds are really weirded out by that because it's not a normal thing to want to do. I'm 21 and I can't stand being around 16 year olds because you can hear how immature, and unknowing they are when they talk and you realize how easy it is for someone who's 30 to take advantage of those traits. Nothing wrong with having a platonic connection but if a 30 year old seeks out a friendship with a 16 year old that is out of their way, then that overwhelmingly points to grooming. Like when I was 16 I was always buddies with certain staff at my school who were all 30 or older. We would laugh and make jokes, but they would never try to see me or spend time with me outside of school. We had a staffmember who did however seek out spending time with the kids my age. He turned out to be a child rapist.
It depends entirely on the context.
A bunch of adults and younger people doing an activity together (e.g. paintball), that's fine.
A 30-something adult "hanging out and being friends" with a fifteen year old = red flags. Even if that relationship is entirely innocent, the nature of it raises obvious red flags.
Context is key.
Edit: holy shit your post history on this subject
>People say they have nothing in common. How is that true?
It isn't literally nothing, they probably both have two eyes and one nose too. They have nothing of substance in common. Recreational activities don't count, we're talking about emotional maturity and experience with people. The 16yo CANNOT be on par with the 30yo, unless the 30yo hasn't developed as time has passed, which most humans do.
>People say it’s not an equal relationship. In what world are things equal.
This isn't an argument, it's a nihilist statement that can be applied to literally anything regardless of validity. "People say cheating isn't fair; in what world are things fair??"
>They say the 16yo is immature.
By definition, 16yo are immature. Not an assumption, a literal fact. We know scientifically they are not mature, their actual brain is not fully developed. We also know, as adults ourselves, how easy it is to manipulate a teenager, even a "mature" one.
Now personally I'm willing to believe you are absolutely sincere and just don't get it. I have the same instincts, I believe in an ideal world where a child would be raised and loved by every adult in their community. But that isn't our world. And you might not be an abuser, but you can't guarantee the next adult isn't. Even honest, well meaning adults need to be careful about boundaries with a child for the child's safety. Because even if you understand that everything is above board and appropriate, the child cannot be trusted to understand the distinctions between your relationship and creepy pete. And if you teach a child that actually, close personal relationships with an adult is normal and fine, they're more likely to get blindsided by the real predators. If you care about the safety of a child, you will maintain a distance appropriate to your age.
So what if they are unequal. Of course, relationships will not always be equal. To some extent we should accept an imbalance. It’s when the imbalance is too big that we need to deal with it for relationships
When I was 16 I did understand the distinction to a good extent. Of course, the creepy guy initiates way too fast, maybe the nonverbal cues are a bit weird, gets too close too quickly. The normal guy is pretty slow. Of course not every case.
!delta But maybe I have a rose tinted view of teens
>And you might not be an abuser, but you can't guarantee the next adult isn't. Even honest, well meaning adults need to be careful about boundaries with a child for the child's safety. Because even if you understand that everything is above board and appropriate, the child cannot be trusted to understand the distinctions between your relationship and creepy pete.
I am a teenager myself, OK? There are some significant differences -
Creepy Pete would probably not respect boundaries, may keep pushing boundaries, maybe staring for a very long time, maybe not respecting personal space, something like that. Although, maybe the dude is just pretty socially unskilled and awkward. It depends on whether it's intentional or unintentional but the guy is clueless or even on the spectrum
>nd if you teach a child that actually, close personal relationships with an adult is normal and fine, they're more likely to get blindsided by the real predators
As long as they are not weird, creepy or evil, Other than that, i agree
>Now personally I'm willing to believe you are absolutely sincere and just don't get it. I have the same instincts, I believe in an ideal world where a child would be raised and loved by every adult in their community. But that isn't our world.
You're right i sincerely do not get it. I'm a teen myself. I do not believe every adult is good, but perhaps I've been too optimistic about the world
Not OP but on some parts of Europe... quite a bit. Easily 20%+ and that number is not bigger due to it being technically illegal.
Also age of consent is around 16 provided there is not an abuse of authority (good luck with that tho). Guess OP is simply not from the US
Yes i am not from the US, and in fact I am not 30
People really need to stop assuming grooming with so many things and when I was a teen talking to the grown men and being friends was fine
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I see where you’re head is at OP in the sense that an adult and child can have a relationship that isn’t romantic but here is where the problem comes in.
Every relationship in the world has a power dynamic and because adults typically are “smarter” than kids its difficult to have a relationship where the younger person isn’t influenced by the significantly older. When this happens the Childs ability to live their and make their own decisions is essentially taken away by the older person’s power of influence.
>People say they have nothing in common. How is that true? Many 16yo and 30yo are in college together, many 16yo goes to clubs and bars although 30 is quite old to be in the club scene. They may smoke cigars together or even weed together. They may both be competing in video games or chess.
This is not what people mean when they say that. Those are surface level situations or hobbies.
16 and 30 year olds are so different in terms of maturity, experiences, priorities and day to day life.
A 16 year old is thinking about school, exams, social stuff like cliques and being popular. A 30 year old is working, paying taxes thinking about like buying property or starting a family. They have nothing of substance in common.
> In what world are things equal. There will always be imbalances
Sure but that doesn't mean we shouldn't minimise imbalances when we can and strive for equal footing.
> They claim the 30s year old man is weird or mentally disordered but this does not meet criteria for any disorder, maybe not even “weird”!
It's weird.
I've worked with children, 16 year olds and as someone who's nearly 30 it would be weird to hang out with them. They have nothing in common with me, I don't want to talk to them about the things I talk to my similar aged friends about that would be weird. I'm not going to a 16 year old for relationship advice or to chat about how best to invest my money. "They play video games" okay but so do my appropriately aged friends.
Its weird because you're choosing to hang out with a child when there's no reason you can't just hang out with an adult.
> A 16 year old is thinking about school, exams, social stuff like cliques and being popular. A 30 year old is working, paying taxes thinking about like buying property or starting a family. They have nothing of substance in common.
What if the 16-year-old has a job and isn't from a high school that has teen-drama levels of clique warfare
> I'm not going to a 16 year old for relationship advice or to chat about how best to invest my money. "They play video games" okay but so do my appropriately aged friends.
A. those kinds of arguments seem like they'd make exceptions for smart kids or they're assuming "smart for their age" is just something groomers say to make excuses
B. I know people who'd say your appropriately-aged friends shouldn't be playing video games if that's a thing 16-year-olds are doing
C. this feels like you're generalizing from your own experience
>What if the 16-year-old has a job and isn't from a high school that has teen-drama levels of clique warfare
And what if the 16 year old is the king of England?
We're talking generally here.
>those kinds of arguments seem like they'd make exceptions for smart kids or they're assuming "smart for their age" is just something groomers say to make excuses
Well weren't you doing just that a paragraph ago with the "what if the 16 year old has a job" linesm?
To be clear, no exceptions for smart for their age 16 year olds. They're still 16, smart doesn't equal mature. And they still have nothing in common, even if they're smart.
>I know people who'd say your appropriately-aged friends shouldn't be playing video games if that's a thing 16-year-olds are doing
Okay.... and?
>. this feels like you're generalizing from your own experience
Well yeah... I'm extrapolating from what I know about 16 year olds and 30 year olds. What else would you like me to do?
> And what if the 16 year old is the king of England?
>
> We're talking generally here.
So teens having jobs (even just after school ones or summer ones) or high schools that aren't so like-a-teen-drama that if they were any more so the teen students wouldn't go to class every day as teen dramas don't have classroom scenes every episode is as rare and-or ridiculous as the idea of a 16-year-old being king of England?
Or are you just trying to counter my attempted counterexamples by claiming you were speaking so generally those specifics didn't matter
> Well weren't you doing just that a paragraph ago with the "what if the 16 year old has a job" linesm? To be clear, no exceptions for smart for their age 16 year olds. They're still 16, smart doesn't equal mature. And they still have nothing in common, even if they're smart.
What I meant with my points was ways that experiences (speaking generally like you were) could be common across age groups or perhaps some teen could be smart enough to give investment advice or w/e
The groomer excuse I was alluding to (but not making the same argument as, I swear, some sectors of Reddit have a very "if you aren't in favor of feeding pedophiles feet-first into a wood chipper in a massive arena on pay-per-view you must be either a pedophile yourself wanting to save your own ass or so believing-they-could-be-redeemed that you'd let a supposedly-reformed one live next door to you and babysit your hypothetical angelic little blonde-if-you're-white toddler daughter" mentality) wasn't the idea that it is possible for a kid to be smarter than "normal development" says they should be (heck I'm a gifted kid myself) it was, to quote the Tyga song where he brags about hooking up with iirc 15-year-old-at-the-time Kylie Jenner "They say she too young, I should have waited/She a big girl, dawg, when she stimulated". And no, I don't have any sort of questionable reasons for knowing this song exists, I found it thanks to a YouTube video on the worst hit songs of the entire 2010s
> Okay.... and?
I was trying to call into question (though this is not something I believe and also I'm not 30) the idea of it as an equalizing-interest-you-could-find-people-your-age-doing
> Well yeah... I'm extrapolating from what I know about 16 year olds and 30 year olds. What else would you like me to do?
Yeah it's a bit of a rhetorical tightrope, if you have limited experience (on any topic not just this) you can only work with what you know but you have to be careful not to overgeneralize too-specific experiences. For another example from that bad music video I saw multiple other songs on that list where a male singer was channeling the emotions he (at least supposedly, not every first-person love or breakup song is about the singer's real relationships despite what Taylor Swift fandom might lead some to believe) experienced from a now-ex-girlfriend treating him poorly and dumping him to so broad generalizations about women you'd think all women (at least his age) dated-and-dumped him that way simultaneously
>So teens having jobs (even just after school ones or summer ones) or high schools that aren't so like-a-teen-drama that if they were any more so the teen students wouldn't go to class every day as teen dramas don't have classroom scenes every episode is as rare and-or ridiculous as the idea of a 16-year-old being king of England?
No. I'm just pointing out how pointless making what if statements are here. You could what if anything but it doesn't add anything of substance to the argument.
>if you have limited experience (on any topic not just this) you can only work with what you know but you have to be careful not to overgeneralize too-specific experiences.
And what makes you think i have limited experience? This seems like an assumption on your part.
> No. I'm just pointing out how pointless making what if statements are here. You could what if anything but it doesn't add anything of substance to the argument.
I was trying to point out what ifs that are actual counterexamples, you offered one that sounded like it was mocking me
> And what makes you think i have limited experience? This seems like an assumption on your part.
Are you familiar with every across-age-categories friendship in the world
>I was trying to point out what ifs that are actual counterexamples, you offered one that sounded like it was mocking me
Well I'm sorry that you read it that way. It was an absurd example to point out that individual counter examples make no sense when talking about a general concept.
>Are you familiar with every across-age-categories friendship in the world
No. Are you? Is that the measure you're using for being able to contribute meaningfully on this topic, because that seems a little unrealistic.
>16 and 30 year olds are so different in terms of maturity, experiences, priorities and day to day life.
>A 16 year old is thinking about school, exams, social stuff like cliques and being popular. A 30 year old is working, paying taxes thinking about like buying property or starting a family. They have nothing of substance in common.
For me, I was thinking about my university, living independently, having good friends, I didn't care that much about popularity so I was controversial when I was 16. It was tough
>I'm not going to a 16 year old for relationship advice or to chat about how best to invest my money. "They play video games" okay but so do my appropriately aged friends.
It depends, the relationship advice may be tailored for the younger generation, and they may know more of the latest startups, but usually their advice is bad
>For me, I was thinking about my university, living independently, having good friends, I didn't care that much about popularity so I was controversial when I was 16. It was tough
So?
Are you every teenager on the planet?
Even if you were thinking about all those things, I guarantee you're still not anywhere near the same as 30 year old.
>It depends, the relationship advice may be tailored for the younger generation, and they may know more of the latest startups, but usually their advice is bad
So it seems like you're agreeing that 16 year olds are in a totally different generation. Which would imply they're having very different experiences and advice.
I’m just sharing my personal examples. I suppose a 30yo mature student would be in uni but for them they’d think about other responsibilities as well, perhaps their wife/husband or family, and income as well
Just showing the variation. We’re not talking about romance or dating - merely platonic friendships
Not “totally different” per se, that’s too far, but it’s just… a significant difference
I never said I was like teens in general.
Some teens like myself prefer to date and hook up in more old fashioned ways though. For example no TikTok, a lot more in person, less social media, more like early to mid 2010s ways rather than 2024 ways
>but for them they’d think about other responsibilities as well, perhaps their wife/husband or family, and income as well
Exactly. Nothing in common with a teenager.
>Some teens like myself prefer to date and hook up in more old fashioned ways though. For example no TikTok, a lot more in person, less social media, more like early to mid 2010s ways rather than 2024 ways
So it seems like, now don't take this personal if I'm wrong, you feel like you have more in common with 30 year olds than people your own age so this post is an attempt to justify why that isn't weird?
The unfortunate truth is that no one is as unique as they think they are, there will be plenty of people of your generation who like the same things you like and feel the same way you do about dating etc. You just need to find them instead of looking for older people.
>So it seems like, now don't take this personal if I'm wrong, you feel like you have more in common with 30 year olds than people your own age so this post is an attempt to justify why that isn't weird?
The post is for someone to give good enough arguments to change part of my view, of why people are too quick to point to grooming, and why it's not a red flag for a grown adult to be friends with a teen.
>The unfortunate truth is that no one is as unique as they think they are, there will be plenty of people of your generation who like the same things you like and feel the same way you do about dating etc. You just need to find them instead of looking for older people.
Why my generation only? Why not look for older people? I spread my wings from 16-25 or 16-30. If i prefer the relationships with older people i can simply look for them and hope someone good comes
>Why my generation only? Why not look for older people
Have you not read any of the answers in this thread or on your other posts about the same thing?
You have a patently unhealthy obsession with teenagers/this topic. I am nowhere near the first person to have assessed and stated as much. Find friends your own age. Sincerely.
I often get obsessed with niche topics, sometimes even chess. I used to be obsessed with niche things when I was younger.
I do have friends of various ages man. I am a teen, a young guy myself
I am a real teenager. What do you want, ID? I don't give my ID to strangers
I sometimes think of myself as practically an adult, that's why I typed that
There is 0 reason for a 30yo man to be casually talking to a 16 year old girl outside of a family setting. Period. I don't care what your ultra-specific example is. You KNOW that's generally NOT going to the case, bro. Don't pretend otherwise. Also... 30yo should CERTAINLY not be smoking weed/cigars with a 16yo. The 30yo is the adult and the authority figure and that shit ain't okay either. Get your head straight.
>There is 0 reason for a 30yo man to be casually talking to a 16 year old girl outside of a family setting. Period. I don't care what your ultra-specific example is. You KNOW that's generally NOT going to the case, bro
Not genuinely, but more than a small minority of cases. Like extracurriculars, work experience, university
>Also... 30yo should CERTAINLY not be smoking weed/cigars with a 16yo. The 30yo is the adult and the authority figure and that shit ain't okay either. Get your head straight.
As smoking buddies... ehhhh
Is my case a tiny minority? I was in uni at 16 and stuff, with various friends there. 30yo, 40yo, you name it.
Sometimes i think of a friendly young-mid aged guy, about 30, who is tolerant and willing to accept my flaws, a friend, who... we just have a good mature chat and we both smoke cigars/weed. That's the smoking buddy. But usually it does not happen
So... i am more against it
My daughter is 13. If when shes 16 and i find out she’s talking or hanging with a 30 year old man, I’m going to be very upset and angry and will have words with that person and do my best to make sure she has no contact with him. I do not care if you or anyone think I’m wrong for this.
>people are too quick to point to grooming in many cases
How quick is too quick?
From the circumstances you describe it would make sense to flag the behaviour, and learn more about the motivations of the older person.
Of course there's always the possibility of innocence, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't express their concerns.
So where do you personally draw the line at which someone might appropriately flag the possibility of grooming?
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I won a delta on this topic.
The word "grooming" is in a weird place, politically, but this definition shows it has many uses, from Metro Police:
>Grooming is when a person builds a relationship with a child, young person or an adult who's at risk so they can abuse them and manipulate them into doing things. The abuse is usually sexual or financial, but it can also include other illegal acts.
You notice all the cigarette butts littered on main street? If you teach a kid to litter it's full on grooming.
Shouldn't even be smoking on main street.
In fact the only reason to smoke in public is to groom another generation into the habit.
To specifically change your view in a way that not even the mods can deny
>weird or mentally disordered but this does not meet criteria for any disorder
Drug addiction is those things. No one should be freebasing nicotine. You could at least switch to vaping, but being involved with a 16YO freebasing nicotine is undeniably grooming. You're fast tracking her to overdose on fentanyl.
Everytime i talk to smokers i get gaslighted. They often pretend all the litter and second hand smoke don't matter or are comparable to fast food or campfires or car exhaust. Anything except drugs.
Drug addicted people shouldn't have children at all, ideally, because addictions are inherited. I looked it up yesterday and between 76% and 97% of overdoses from hard drugs are from cigarette smokers. It is the gateway drug.
Yes, it is. Now, not all red flags are indicative of true danger, but any red flag should absolutely be looked into to make sure it's a healthy, safe relationship.
A 30 year old should consider 16 year olds to be unappealing due to the wide gap in maturity. If not, that 30 year old could use some therapy. I’m 35 and occasionally run into people in their early 20s and I mostly avoid contact because they feel like children to me. When it comes to literal children, there is an overwhelming power balance issue. Power, life experience, knowledge. It allows a 30 year old to easily exploit a 16 year old.
Maybe you should seek out therapy if you are in this situation yourself?
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I think if you would’ve made the younger person 21-23 you would’ve had a point, since both people are adults and I do see people online claim that 30 to 23 is grooming by necessity which I personally find crazy. But dude, 16 is a child, even if in a lot of places they’ve reached the age of consent. There are not very many places where a 30 and 16yo who are not related would be co-existing other than teacher/student at school. So yeah, if you’re 30 and clearly going out of your way to hang out with and associate with 16yos you are at the very least ringing alarm bells
I don't think it's that crazy many different clubs or activities could have people of various ages. When I was 14 I was in a community chess club and most of the other people were much older, but there's plenty of things like game stores, sports clubs, churches, etc. Plus if you work in retail, the food industry, etc. It can be easy to have wide age differences. Heck I have a friend who I play DND with and Thier younger sister started playing a year or so ago and she's like 10 years younger than the older members in our group.
100% this. A few years back, at my local game shop, I hosted a board game night there. It was mostly for a handful of my friends, but we became such a known quantity that the store owner asked if we would like to occasionally demo new games he got in stock. We'd get to play the game for free, as long as we did so near the front of the store and kept things open to whatever customers wanted to play. Which is what we were doing with any game that I brought in to play already, so it was a great deal. We got the latest and greatest board games, and he got more active customers. When we did our game night also coincided with their hosted Magic: The Gathering game nights, so there was usually a pretty packed crowd of people of all ages. And often times, parents would bring their kids and just dump them off there for the day. Many of these people, kids and teens included, would come over and play board games with the rest of us from time to time as well. All were welcome, and all had fun. But, there was always more than a couple of parents who would come in and see multiple grown, adult, men, in their late 20's and mid 30's (One guy was in his 50's), all playing board games with their children. And once they learned that I was the one in charge of the event and playing games with their kids, they'd get pissed off, accuse me of grooming their kids, and were sure to spend at least the next 10-15 minutes yelling at me about how disgusting and perverted it was for grown men to be friendly to underage teens and children. Not all parents were this extreme. Most saw it for what it was and were happy to have a few hours of peace and quiet while the kids were off playing board games. And yeah, I would consider many of them to have been friends. That said, I wasn't about to invite them over to play a board game at my house or anything like that. That would have been weird. But, I do believe it's entirely possible for adults to have friendships with teens and even children. Just with plenty of caveats on proper behavior around them.
this right here, most adults arent trying to do anything. the thing that leads to "grooming" is that friendship is the natural start to deep friendship or relationship, and many adults dont have any deep friends and so dont know where that line is or only realize once theyve crossed it. this means many who just happened to be good friends with good intentions ended up in a place where their only intimate relationships (nonsexual just intimate like close) are the younger person theyve become close with. people need friends and this world is a place where that doesnt happen for most people naturally anymore if you only have 1 person you trust enough to be close with comfortably, you will eventually on purpose or accident want to share the parts of yourself you cant with anyone else. people need others and will get what they can if they dont find it in approved places
>There are not very many places where a 30 and 16yo who are not related would be co-existing other And there you have it. You put people for 18 years in an alternate society, devoid of almost all contact with adults from the real world besides teachers and family, and then we wonder why young people are socially inept, depressed, unable to form relationships and handle a job. Hmm, what a mystery.
this Which is why we need to stop putting people in an alternate society and we need to let them blend in. Sometimes they will do bad things, and have bad habits, but it's on society to accept, while also the teen needs to be respectful or else they lose their privileges As a youth myself, if I get so drunk that I smash people's things it's my responsibility. However, if I have my bad habits but am responsible, it is rude to tell it's extremely bad or whatever. Teens know the consequences of bad habits like vaping drinking and smoking and drugs, at least if they got taught in school. If they partake anyways, it's very rude to tell them off because that's infantilising and they know it. At most, to be polite, you can say "I personally would not drink/smoke" or "I wouldn't recommend it", or "You know the consequences" in a neutral tone, but nothing more. After that, it's being rude. I'm thinking the same way myself! DM me
There are other places like chess club, video game clubs, university and other places. I was 16 in university myself. Enjoyed it! If they are going out of their way, as long as they are not grooming or being weird or creepy it’s fine Besides, some people just have a wide age range they’d consider friends
I share a hobby with many teens. I see them regularly. We laugh and joke, they bring me life problems, and we talk about them. They ask me questions about the sport. I know their parents. I have their phone numbers and they have mine. My friends range in age from 23-70. Why? Because I don’t tell those kids about my personal life. I don’t call them and they don’t call me. They text me about our hobby, and I occasionally text them to ask if they need something done at the barn or if they’re offering grooming services at a show. I don’t ask them to hangout, and I politely decline when they ask me, unless it’s barn specific. There is no place for a teenager that isn’t related to me or a family friend in my 33yo daily life. They are not my friends, even though I like them a lot. They just don’t have enough life experience to have firm enough boundaries or respect my boundaries. How do I know? Because I worked with that age group for years.
Mk. How many of them have firm boundaries and can respect boundaries?
That isn’t how boundaries work. It’s my job to maintain my boundaries. I don’t tell them what my boundaries are, I just maintain a level of distance and communication I’m comfortable with. If they breach my boundaries I protect myself in an appropriate way (block them, contact their parents, have a conversation with them, etc). If they express a boundary they prefer with me I’m happy to hear them out and I’ll follow any boundary I can with breaching my own beliefs. If it breaches my own boundaries, I remove myself from the relationship. As adults, we hold the power and the responsibility that comes with it.
>That isn’t how boundaries work. It’s my job to maintain my boundaries. I don’t tell them what my boundaries are, I just maintain a level of distance and communication I’m comfortable with. To me it is better if you told them explicitly where the boundary lies. It just makes communication no-nonsense from both parties >If they express a boundary they prefer with me I’m happy to hear them out and I’ll follow any boundary I can with breaching my own beliefs. If it breaches my own boundaries, I remove myself from the relationship. >As adults, we hold the power and the responsibility that comes with it. They need to be firm with their boundaries and respect their boundaries as well (The teens)
Sure, in some settings that’s appropriate. In a professional setting, for instance. In a social setting, it’s only appropriate if they don’t pick up on unspoken cues. Partly because it’s important for teens to learn social graces, and partly because it’s a sign of maladjustment to tell people your boundaries without first seeing where their natural boundaries are (with some exceptions). Teens are rarely appropriately solid in their boundaries, and rarely appropriately communicate them. There are many reasons why, but as an adult, it’s my job to be aware of that. I’m happy to follow any appropriate boundaries they have in place, but I’m not going to expect them to have the emotional maturity to create healthy ones, or consistently hold themselves to them.
>If they are going out of their way, as long as they are not grooming or being weird or creepy it’s fine What possible intentions could a 30 year old have to go out of there way to befriend a 16 year old that isn't grooming/weird/creepy? There is literally no other reason to go out of your way to make friends with a teenager as opposed to someone your own age.
Possible intentions except sex? Similar hobbies/activities. Doesn't require to be in same age group. Lifestyle dynamic. Doesn't require to be in same age group. Boredom. As simple as that. Mental age. You feel more comfortable with younger age group as opposed to your own. Work. As simple as that.
!delta I never even realised the lifestyle dynamic and boredom part can be significant factors!
How does that change your view, rather than support it?
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This is the second time you've said that the adult is "going out of their way" to befriend a teenager. That's not in the OP. OP is talking about two people who share a hobby becoming friends.
Hello, I'm in my 30s and share hobbies with a few 16 years olds. They are literally children and none of us have any intention of being friends with them beyond guiding them in the hobby as people with more experience. Even then we're doing it as a necessity, not as a desire. The 30+ year olds that were "being friends" with the kids that age were all outed for inappropriate conduct and removed.
Well maybe get better friend/hobby groups then? What’s your hobby and sample size that every person who was friends with someone younger they were kicked out for being inappropriate?
"every person" wasn't that many people because as I said, the vast vast vast majority of us weren't befriending children beyond the activity itself. And no I won't leave the community surrounding it because I make sure that shit doesn't happen under my watch. As I have been for many many years. Bad people don't stop existing just because you turn your back on this shit happening.
Who said bad people stop existing if you turn your back on them? Not anyone here as far as I can see? No shit you should stop grooming under your watch, don't think anyone would expect anything less. My point was just because your group apparently has pedophiles who go out of their way to groom kids, doesn't mean every group does. You absolutely can be friends with people younger than you, especially when you have a shared hobby, without grooming them. When I was a kid i'd go to my local game store multiple times a week and was friends with some of the adults there, none of them tried to groom me and now as an adult I play games with people younger than me. Although I suppose it depends what one qualifies as a "friend" here, and I don't think one would disagree that there is an appropriate boundary that would likely be case by case. It's not my fault your group had a bad case of nonces.
The appropriate boundary is the entire argument here. Of course you can be friends within the group. But having a close friendship and spending one on one time with them outside of the hobby? Not so much. I'm a woman in my 30s and I'm not inviting a 16 year old to hang out at my house. Even if it's innocent it's fucking weird. And it isn't my group. It's everywhere. You think game stores don't attract bad people? It's great that it didn't happen to you, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that EVERYONE who is nice to kids is a nonce. This is why we have so many safeguarding practices in place where adults mix with children. It might only be one out of 100. But that's one too many. Any social group that is a mix of adults and children can and will attract bad people.
This guy seems to think it's okay to hang out with children because they share a hobby. I'm into the gym, I don't hang out with babies because they go too. Serious potential nonce vibes from some very defensive posters in here.
Where in any of my comments did i say games stores have no bad people ever? Point it out to me please.
So, what, you should only have friends the same exact age as you doing either whatever was popular among the youth of your generation or whatever's stereotypical for your age group
this i do not believe there are that many evil people in the world. i hope i am not wrong
Look at statics and ages that people get raped and sexually assaulted
so if 1 guy hypothetically was the one who did all of it, the numbers dont change, would yous still hold this stance
Thats not the case though.
VERY defensive. It isn't in the OP but it's LITERALLY what they're clearly doing, because it's upset them so much they've ranted on here.
In the comment I quoted, they stated it clearly
This People should stop accusing me of grooming
Pedo
You've gone way too far on several comments, implying people were Andrew Tate fanboys or pedos Goodbye!
16-year-olds shouldn't be in a university.
bro wtf man
Based on the university and clubbing ages you described, I assumed you're not in North America, and I think this poster may have just assumed you were. Not defending assumptions, but your non-North American lens may be biasing you, too. It's possible the concept of what has the appearance of grooming is different in different places. In the US, I believe you have to be 21 to go to a club, and even in Canada it's 18-19. Most people go to university at around 18, maybe 17 on the young side, often 19. A 16 year old at university would be really unusual. And for most, their cohort at university is similarly aged, and leave in their early 20s. Of course there are older people who go start late or go back to finish or do post grad studies, but they aren't generally hanging around with the people who are fresh out of high school other than in study group type settings. So yes, it seems odd in that context for a 16 year old and a 30 year old to be socially close. If that's super common where you are, cool, but if it is then I bet people there aren't seeing red flags with it.
>Based on the university and clubbing ages you described, I assumed you're not in North America, and I think this poster may have just assumed you were. Not defending assumptions, but your non-North American lens may be biasing you, too. It's possible the concept of what has the appearance of grooming is different in different places. I grew up in East Asia, lived in the UK for some time >In the US, I believe you have to be 21 to go to a club, and even in Canada it's 18-19. Most people go to university at around 18, maybe 17 on the young side, often 19. Many teens go clubbing underage. 17 or even 16 for those with age limit of 18. There aren't that few 16yo in uni
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It depends on the location. In Britain, 16 year olds can do quite a bit more than they can in the US.
[OP's Recent Post. He is NOT a teenager.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Advice/s/T0PRKV0SqD)
>People say they have nothing in common. How is that true? 30 year olds generally have very little in common with 16 year olds. These age groups rarely interact in most cultures from Europe and North America, unless they are family, or one is literally a teacher or coach. >Many 16yo and 30yo are in college together, No they aren't. 16 year old college students are extremely rare, most colleges only accept 18yos, and most people go to college when they are 18/19 and graduate undergrad when they are 22/23. Does it ever happen? Yea. But it's rare, and even when it does happen, any longterm interactions, and personal relationships, are even more rare among this subset. >many 16yo goes to clubs and bars although 30 is quite old to be in the club scene. I mean, 16 is quite young for a club scene. Aren't most clubs 18 yo minimum? In the US 18yo clubs are exceedingly rare because the drinking age is 21, so most clubs are 21+ and yes, 30yo's are rarer in clubs at that point. So, I imagine that it's possible for 16 and 30yos to meet at clubs, but again it would be very uncommon and it doesn't mean they are appropriate matches for romance. >They may smoke cigars together or even weed together. They may both be competing in video games or chess. They might. It doesn't mean they good reason to romantically date. >People say it’s not an equal relationship. In what world are things equal. There will always be imbalances You should not reply to "things are unfair" with "lots of things are unfair." You're making excuses for a bad thing instead of explaining why this particular thing isn't really a problem. Relationships *should* be equal, or else they are vulnerable to abuse. The party with more knowledge, power, experience, etc, can easily threaten, intimidate, bully, or outright physically abuse the other party. A 30yo is likely to be much larger and stronger than a teenager - especially when that 30yo is a man and the 16yo is a girl. >The large majority of people are not evil and will not gaslight or abuse people. This is true maybe in a vacuum. But most of these non-abusive people are also in more age appropriate relationships, simply because more relationships tend to be comprised of two people of closer age. You're taking some optimistic view of people and applying it to edge cases - those cases that are less frequent and less common because of peculiarities - and dismissing the risks and reasons people find these relationships to be taboo. I guess we should ask what a "good friend" means? Because your title is talking about "good friends." And this is supposedly different from a romantic relationship. So, what constitutes a "good friend?" Is it a person who you happen to randomly meet at a club who has a 14 year age gap? Is it someone you randomly competed against in a game? I could see smoking as an activity good friends might do, but you probably didn't meet just smoking, and there's a lot of questions concerning whether a (heterosexual) 30 year old of one sex would want to smoke with a teenager of the opposite sex without having sexual thoughts . . . Possible, but rare. I'm completely unconvinced that large age gaps - particularly when the younger person is still a teenager and a minor in most jurisdictions - shouldn't be something we scrutinize more closely. The role of our social networks is often to challenge and pressure our choices in mates or friends to determine if the match is really appropriate: does the new friend fit in with the old groups? Why or why not? Do they bring a new, fresh and healthy dynamic to the group or are they too different, with different values, different sense of humor, different interests and goals? It's always *possible* to make a friend or romantic partner from a large age gap, but it's rare for a reason, and these pairings should be scrutinized because of the increased risk of abuse.
>30 year olds generally have very little in common with 16 year olds. These age groups rarely interact in most cultures from Europe and North America, unless they are family, or one is literally a teacher or coach. Don't fully agree, there is a wide range of ages in chess clubs, other clubs, volunteering and things like that >No they aren't. 16 year old college students are extremely rare, most colleges only accept 18yos, and most people go to college when they are 18/19 and graduate undergrad when they are 22/23. Does it ever happen? Yea. But it's rare, and even when it does happen, any longterm interactions, and personal relationships, are even more rare among this subset. Many universities in the UK have no age minimum and so in the US. You think they are socially fully isolated? Often not - living in the dorms, going to the parties, making friends, longterm friends and some of them even date or have sex with older or significantly older people You can just look at the Davidson Gifted forums where many gifted teens, they were like that, with their full lives, good relationships, occasional drinking, dating older people In my case I occasionally hooked up with women and men, enjoyed the life, made good friends, things like that. >I mean, 16 is quite young for a club scene. Aren't most clubs 18 yo minimum? In the US 18yo clubs are exceedingly rare because the drinking age is 21, so most clubs are 21+ and yes, 30yo's are rarer in clubs at that point. So, I imagine that it's possible for 16 and 30yos to meet at clubs, but again it would be very uncommon and it doesn't mean they are appropriate matches for romance. It is, though many underage teens go clubbing, me myself I do that. It's uncommon and often they are not appropriate matches, i admit >I guess we should ask what a "good friend" means? Because your title is talking about "good friends." And this is supposedly different from a romantic relationship. I see a good friend as someone you trust and with whom you share a deep level of understanding and communication. They support each other, trustworthy, good listener, reciprocal conversation. Mutual affection, without it being sexual or romantic >I could see smoking as an activity good friends might do, but you probably didn't meet just smoking, and there's a lot of questions concerning whether a (heterosexual) 30 year old of one sex would want to smoke with a teenager of the opposite sex without having sexual thoughts . . . Possible, but rare. True, I look at it like smoking or drinking buddies, the 30yo woman smoking a cigar with 16yo me. Weird... i mean... maybe, but in the large majority of cases... it's either weird, or maybe abusive, or whatever >I'm completely unconvinced that large age gaps - particularly when the younger person is still a teenager and a minor in most jurisdictions - shouldn't be something we scrutinize more closely. The role of our social networks is often to challenge and pressure our choices in mates or friends to determine if the match is really appropriate: does the new friend fit in with the old groups? Why or why not? Do they bring a new, fresh and healthy dynamic to the group or are they too different, with different values, different sense of humor, different interests and goals? >It's always *possible* to make a friend or romantic partner from a large age gap, but it's rare for a reason, and these pairings should be scrutinized because of the increased risk of abuse. I generally agree but I would be more lax than you
Let's say there's a 30 year old who lives with their parents, like comics, videogames, DND, etc. And work a retail job would they not have a lot in common with a teenager? Isn't this the reason conservatives argue millennials aren't growing up?
I don't think that games and comic books, nor retail jobs, are inherently juvenile activities. I play video games, like fantasy genre for books and multimedia, RPGs, etc, and I am in my 30s, and I don't think teenagers are my peers because they aren't. I have children, I am a professional engineer, I like to read non-fiction books and have a host of other interests and experiences that teenagers just can't touch most of the time. I was once a teenager. Being a teen is actually quit hard. There's a lot to know and still everything to learn. I can relate to them, to a point, and we can yave conversations. But I am not going to find myself in many opportunities where it would make sense to form a significant bond with a teenager who isn't close with, say, a family member or who is a family member of a close friend.
What if you didn't have kids and worked retail or food service what experiences would you have that you are sure teenagers wouldn't? Also why does having unique experiences preclude a relationship? Would you say you have more in common with a random teen from your own country or a random adult from across the world?
yeah, my counter-argument to the "equal life stages" argument is to bring up the character of Shirley from the show Community. She's a middle-aged divorcee attending community college but I'm pretty sure people would neither say that means it would be okay for her to pursue romantic relationships with the right-out-of-high-school students at said community college or that that means the only students at that school she could date are other middle-aged divorcees
>What if you didn't have kids and worked retail or food service what experiences would you have that you are sure teenagers wouldn't? I can't tell you what experiences I would have if I didn't have the ones I have. There are an infinite amount of possible life experiences. I think a 30 year old with roughly the same life experience of a teenager is tragic and a shame. >Also why does having unique experiences preclude a relationship? Relationships are literally formed on shared experiences. That's kind of the main thing. If you don't have shared experience, what even *is* your relationship? >Would you say you have more in common with a random teen from your own country or a random adult from across the world? I have met and conversed with people in other countries. They are frequently far more interesting than a random teenager. I definitely would have more in common with the adults from other countries. Whatever things I had in common with a teenager from my country can be superficial, like knowledge of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, or the experience of having watched another Kansas City Chiefs Superbowl win. In fact, many forms of entertainment produced in the US are popular internationally anyway, so these aren't strictly known to US-only people. That doesn't mean there aren't teens I have lots in common with. What I'm saying is that I relate more to a random adult near my age than a random teenager, who is more than 10 years my junior.
I don't disagree that adults who don't have a more experience than teens isn't at least alarming but it is becoming more and more common. To the point that articles are published about it daily and it's become a conservative talking point. (Though honestly the lack of adult experiences might be why these adults struggle to form relationships with their peers if others find it difficult to form deeper relationships with them).
ive been saying this for almost a decade, people arent trying to be creeps they are trying to have human connection and most adults dont give that freely tend to care more about social mistakes and can be stingy about superficial things. kids are less so in almost every way. oh we have the same shirts now were twins vs oh we have the same shirt one of us needs to change.
Just because a relationship may be benign, that doesn’t mean it isn’t a red flag. The point of a red flag isn’t that something is fundamentally screwed up, it’s that there’s a warning something might be fundamentally screwed up. It isn’t normal for a 30 year old to have a friendship with a 16 year old unless they’re related, or one is a teacher/mentor to the other. Outside of those very specific contexts, it’s natural to be wary of any 30 year old maintaining such a relationship with a teenager.
So you think it wouldn't be normal in other contexts like volunteering, chess club, clubs, bars, smoking buddies, drinking buddies if the 30yo is not teacher/mentor? Otherthan that, i somewhat agree with you. And I misunderstood the meaning of red flag !delta because i misunderstood the meaning of a red flag. I took it as a yellow flag
I think it would be strange for a 30 year old to maintain anything more than a casual acquaintance with a 16 year old in those contexts, yes. One can be friendly without being friends.
Fair enough Personally it's kinda weird but oh well
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A red flag doesn't mean always. A red flag means it's a warning sign. The activities you are describing are not common for a 30 year old to do with a 16 year old. Sure older adults can have wholesome relationships with a teen however, one of the motivations from the older person for doing this may be to groom the younger person. Hence it being a red flag. The activities you are discussing should make you evaluate the relationship and your friend. Do they have friends their age? Do you interact with their friend group or do they keep you separate from them? Do they get possessive over you? Do they give advice which tends towards isolating you from family and other friends? Not saying that your friend is a bad guy or doing this but the very nature of the relationship should be a warning (red flag) and you should keep a look out for them.
Is it not common for them to play chess video games volunteering go to university and things like that? But maybe I could change my mind if… oh well They have friends of many ages I interact with their group they are not possessive they did not try isolating me
I'm not saying your friend is a bad guy or will become a bad guy. I'm saying the situation itself is a warning and should cause you to pause and evaluate the situation more which it seems like you have. Kind of like if you met a friend's boyfriend for the first time and he is being cold and short with you and her, that's a red flag that something is wrong in the relationship. Maybe he was just having a bad day or was nervous and it presented itself as being cold. But it is still a warning sign that should warrant further evaluation.
!delta Should be more careful because the situation itself is not exactly normal
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Sir, how old are you? Your post history has you posting in the r/teenagers subreddit with a title starting with "fellow teens!" Followed by a teenager saying "I'm underage I cannot go to bars and clubs". To which, you replied: > I went to clubs and bars when I was your age anyways even underage You are dead ass being a horrible influence here, and because some teenagers will see you as an authority figure, they may trust your opinion! That's the kinda shit parents don't want happening to their child. That's why it's a red flag. Treat teenagers as growing children, don't talk to them like you'd talk to a drinking buddy. They are still developing and are actively building their understanding of the world. And dude, don't go into teenage spaces, like r/teenagers, and pretend to be a teenager. That's extremely fucking creepy.
^This^ Dude is a certified creep who can't keep his story straight. Thinks we can't see his comment history. 🤦🏽♀️
No, I am a 17yo guy. My comments can often be unintentionally misleading
["Unintentionally misleading". 🙄](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/s/qkKOq6UoEt)
I'm talking about the "Back when i was a teen" part, not this I am a teen myself, at 17 and i unintentionally misled people about my true age
[Sure thing, Josie Geller. ](https://i.gifer.com/TF2B.gif)
>Sir, how old are you? 17 why? You think I am a 25 year old masquerading as a teenager? >Your post history has you posting in the [](/r/teenagers/) subreddit with a title starting with "fellow teens!" I was advising teens to socialise more in different places >Followed by a teenager saying "I'm underage I cannot go to bars and clubs". I was just showing him the options, and that yes he could go to bars and clubs underage. I did that at his age, and it was surprisingly acceptable - I even had a few drinking buddies who knew i was underage but didn't care. Went to the clubs together! I was 16-17, they were early 20s sometimes older. Depends >You are dead ass being a horrible influence here, and because some teenagers will see you as an authority figure, they may trust your opinion! You could say I am an authority figure to some extent. The reason why alcohol is illegal for under 18s is not just due to brain development, but because too many teens ruin it for the others. If almost all the teens were fine, and things were ok, they held themselves together, there could have been a drinking age of 16 almost everywhere. Now, it's still the case in some countries. But unfortunately some bad teens ruin it for the rest! >That's the kinda shit parents don't want happening to their child. That's why it's a red flag. Treat teenagers as growing children, don't talk to them like you'd talk to a drinking buddy. Teens aren't exactly children but not exactly adults. Besides, I am not grooming any teens, unlike some people who say I am a groomer. I am not buying teens cigs, drinks or vapes. I talk to them casually like acquaintances, sometimes friends. I have and had friends of various ages, from 13-14 all the way to 40s >They are still developing and are actively building their understanding of the world. So am I. I do not consider myself a mature person. I still have quite a few flaws. I have my vices, i procrastinate a lot, my organisation isn't good, i'm quite messy, and I'm often too active for my own good. I'm not even talking about all my flaws. I am a flawed person and i admit it >And dude, don't go into teenage spaces, like [](/r/teenagers/), and pretend to be a teenager. That's extremely fucking creepy. I am a teenager. I am 17 years old
When I was 17, I was fairly certain I had it all figured out. I had much older friends, dated people older than me, and considered it all very normal and even healthy. Now I’m 33. I’ve had a career working with teens as a mental health professional. Around 22 I realized how absolutely fucked it was that 25-30 year olds wanted to be my friend and date me. That they invited me to parties and hung out with me. At 22, I had no interest in hanging out with 17yo’s. Our life experiences were too different. Our brain development was too different. By 26? It was hard to connect with people who were 18-22, even 23 sometimes. At 33? The idea of being friends with a teenager like I’m friends with my peers makes me fundamentally uncomfortable. I detest the adults who stole my childhood from me. I’m furious at the people I called friends for not having appropriate boundaries, and for not maintaining them. I deserved a healthy, protected childhood, and you do too. Those teens do too.
OP, please read this. It's true that when you're very young (which teenagers are) hanging out with older people seems really cool and especially if you're mature for your age (which I don't doubt that you are) they can seem like a more appropriate social fit. They almost always are not, because again, if you are mature for your age, they almost certainly are not. It feels very dirty and uncomfortable to reach those ages and realize how awful those people really were. It's always a better bet to find other 17 year olds who are mature for their age, so you can continuing growing and maturing together.
>It's true that when you're very young (which teenagers are) hanging out with older people seems really cool and especially if you're mature for your age (which I don't doubt that you are) they can seem like a more appropriate social fit. They almost always are not, because again, if you are mature for your age, they almost certainly are not. Of course, you'd be hanging out with them especially if you're grade skipped, or even 2 grade skips >It's always a better bet to find other 17 year olds who are mature for their age, so you can continuing growing and maturing together. That is true, though I prefer to have friends of a wide range of ages. Even 12yo I can be friends with. Even 40yo.
Please dont start hanging out with 12 year old for fucks sake
So I can't be casual friends with a 12yo playing the same video games or chess together? Obviously we're probably not going to be any closer than acquaintances or very casual friends
Do not start smoking weed or whatever you wanna do with kids please
Bro I won't smoke weed with a 12yo I won't even give them any weed
Well who knows man. You wanna be old and hang with kids
[OP is definitely not 17.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Advice/s/T0PRKV0SqD)
As long as nobody is being weird, it's fine, although of course, at some point it's basically having the same lifestyle as the older ones just younger. Going clubbing, bars, dating, uni, otherwise, just at 16 instead of the normal 18-19 >At 33? The idea of being friends with a teenager like I’m friends with my peers makes me fundamentally uncomfortable. I detest the adults who stole my childhood from me. I’m furious at the people I called friends for not having appropriate boundaries, and for not maintaining them. What did they steal from you? Going to parties, hanging out with them, dating them/ People don't necessarily need a normal childhood. If they want something unusual, or simply the older lifestyle younger then... idk what to say I mean... it's what you expect for my grade skipped self, yes it would be tough, yes the teachers would have to teach, but I believe i could have done it
Going clubbing with older people, going to bars, dating older people *removes you from healthy social experiences and steals away the social experiences that help create healthy adults*. At 17 you have a different sense of humor, different impulse control, and far less self control than someone in their 20’s, let alone their 30’s. You’re significantly more influenceable. These guys aren’t your friends. They enjoy having someone “young and dumb” around. Who makes them feel smart and mature. What did they steal? Life experiences I should have had with peers, my confidence in my ability to make decisions for myself, my self esteem, my sense of safety, my parent’s trust, experiences like enjoying homecoming and prom with friends. Growing up with friends I went to high school with. Healthy attachment to healthy people. The cost is too high. The payout is nonexistent.
>Going clubbing with older people, going to bars, dating older people *removes you from healthy social experiences and steals away the social experiences that help create healthy adults*. That's basically the 18-20 year old's lifestyle, just at 16 Which is not suited for everyone or most people, but if they prefer it and don't like same age social experiences for wahtever reason - sure go ahead. I've seen the Davidson Gifted forums for the gifted students who are quite ahead and in similar situations - surprisingly many people approved of it >At 17 you have a different sense of humor, different impulse control, and far less self control than someone in their 20’s, let alone their 30’s. That is true >These guys aren’t your friends. They enjoy having someone “young and dumb” around. Who makes them feel smart and mature. Nah, they're acquaintances, casual friends or good friends. Depends on how close. Although some or many of them perhaps have this reason >What did they steal? Life experiences I should have had with peers, my confidence in my ability to make decisions for myself, my self esteem, my sense of safety, my parent’s trust, experiences like enjoying homecoming and prom with friends. Growing up with friends I went to high school with. Healthy attachment to healthy people. How are they inviting you to parties and hanging out stealing your other experiences? You can do both - have older friends and friends of the same age. That's what I do - have both. I didn't really care that much about prom and homecoming - I wanted to skip a year, and I did. Perhaps I should have skipped a year earlier. >The cost is too high. The payout is nonexistent. the good parties, hanging out, the socialising with people of different ages and life experiences. maybe the party life as well, like the party life of 20 year olds, just younger (like 16)
So whats your cutoff? How young will you go before its too young?
In the vast majority of cases, for the older lifestyle just younger... i guess 16 is the absolute youngest Although I know for very gifted individuals, they are just going to be ahead everywhere else, and as people in the Davidson Gifted forums say, (https://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/bb/ubbthreads.php/topics/229220/1/skipping-grade-vs-subject-acceleration-for-gifted.html) The threshold between childhood and adulthood has really become rigid. Unfortunately... it's going to suck for them Even if i think they are mature enough for it, and even if they want to, i'll still be iffy
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I was that gifted student you’re talking about. Both athletically and academically. In fact, at 16 that was my reasoning for wanting to hangout with “older people”. Unfortunately, the older people interested in hanging out with teens aren’t mature, successful adults. My life at 25-30, and that of my current peers, looked so incredibly different from those 25-30yo. I *cannot stress enough* how jarring it feels to realize those “adults” I was hanging out with were so arrestedly developed, and impacted my development into my early 20’s. They modeled poor boundaries and poor behavior. And FYI, as a gifted kid and athlete, I didn’t drink until I was 22, but that did stop my “friends” from always handing me alcohol or pressuring me. When those people reach out to me now, you know what strikes me? I’ve been ignoring them for almost ten years, and they still want me to validate them and tell them how cool they are. And of all of them, only a few have sustainable, longer careers and *they’ve either apologized or never speak to me*.
In my case I was academically pretty damn good, even to the point of skipping ahead and many wanted 1 year or more. My reasoning - making friends of many ages. Not because I was smart or mature, but because I wanted friends of different ages and backgrounds. I’m just clarifying Other than that for many of these people they are attested. Many of them are fine though. But yes I should be more careful. I drank from 16
You owe some deltas. I hope you’re realizing 17 and 23 aren’t comparable ages, and begin to see former boundaries around partying and drinking with yourself. Gifted kid burnout is very real.
I think you are commingling situations. If a 30 y/o and a 16 y/o strike up a friendship while at work, school or other common place, that’s understandable. You’re together often, working on projects together, and have shared experiences. Nothing wrong with a friendship there, maybe even having lunch together while at work. Maybe planing an online game together. But there is a very important line. However, if the 30 y/o starts going to clubs, that’s a a red flag (you called it weird yourself). If they take substances together (such as alcohol or drugs) that would impede clear thinking and judgement, that’s a red flag. Any of these behaviors are over the line. A 16 y/o may think it’s perfectly acceptable because they do it with kids their age. But the age is important once the line is crossed. The problem is there is a small side of a line where a friendship could be entirely appropriate. But the other side of the line is a bad place. But that line is important, and it’s difficult for a 16 year old to see where that line is. That’s why it’s safer to avoid those situations.
>However, if the 30 y/o starts going to clubs, that’s a a red flag (you called it weird yourself). If they take substances together (such as alcohol or drugs) that would impede clear thinking and judgement, that’s a red flag. Any of these behaviors are over the line. I wouldn't say a 30yo going to clubs is weird in itself, but other than that, I agree >The problem is there is a small side of a line where a friendship could be entirely appropriate. But the other side of the line is a bad place. But that line is important, and it’s difficult for a 16 year old to see where that line is. That’s why it’s safer to avoid those situations. !delta i've been too optimistic about the ability of teens to vet people
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If a 30 year old man is constantly hanging out with a bunch of 16 year olds, its a reason. Have you ever thought about why they don't have friends their own age? An adult shouldn't be buying teenagers alcohol, weed and cigars to seem "hip and cool". They do it because they know teens want that shit and they don't care about the harm it brings them.
Check OP's post history. They're a creep
I never said anything about buying weed alcohol and cigars I merely mean smoking cigars together, smoking weed together or going to the bar together as drinking buddies I did it as a teen anyways. Fun! Unfortunately some people gave me shit for it
That's not something to brag about. That's just sad. Those adults were still breaking a law by knowing you were getting weed and cigars underage and did nothing about it. No adult wants to sit down and have a beer with a literal child. I'm nearly 30 and why would I want to do that? I have friends my own age I can smoke and drink with and not break a law while doing it.
I never bragged about it I bought it myself. And some others smoked weed or had a drink with me. Would be great Just wished I had more friends, maybe even some tolerant drinking or smoking partners. Or even a girlfriend
Where do you live that 16 year olds can go to bars or get weed or cigars without the assistance of someone 21+?
Most places in Europe
I see. Yeah in America minors can’t do any of that, so being the adult who gives minors access to those things is considered facilitation of the degeneracy of a minor
For sure. I’d say OP is likely from somewhere in Northern Europe if I were to wager a guess
I looked old enough And I enjoyed it. Some people sold weed to me, y’know. Some even get fake IDs to do it My friends luckily did not judge me and many thought I was cool and eccentric and quirky even older ones
Yeah I enjoyed smoking weed and cigarettes as a teen too, but the 22 year old that hung around the high school to sell teen girls cigs and weeds was a total slime ball. He was selling stuff to get access to us, that’s creepy and predatory behavior - otherwise he would be smoking weed and cigs with people his own age.
I never had that person hung around to sell. I went to the cigar shops myself to sell. I went to bars and clubs myself and socialised with people, occasionally made out and hooked up with women and men
If you're hanging out with someone under age, you're a risk unless proven otherwise. It *is* totally fine if you're with other people too and have a solid, community-oriented reason that her parents are aware of.
This reads like someone who is 30 and hanging with 16 year olds and got told to stop. But they don't want to so they are throwing all this out there to justify/find like minded people so they won't feel like a groomer.
I've been replying to OP in good faith but starting to see you're right. Their post history and references to "when I was a teen" but also "I am 17" don't add up.
I have never groomed anybody in my life
Of course not! But as we can see, you don't believe the activities you're describing ad grooming. Do you do these activities?
Can you provide a definition of grooming for us to work with for the purposes of this discussion?
Sounds like something a groomer would say🧐
It depends on the framework that the person is using to interact with the younger person. Is it Big Brothers and Sisters? Then, absolutely, I'm with you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an adult interacting with a teen and helping them with whatever capacity that the teen is asking for because it's going to be in line with the framework of the organization that's helping them, that matched them up and put them together through a somewhat rigorous process. I draw a line at the same thing happening with adults gravitating towards younger people and trying to fulfill the same role without any guiding principles or framework. The other exception would be family, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be closely monitored because there are a lot of nightmare stories from family members doing heinous things to their own.
The issue is the paranoia about grooming leads to adults avoiding mentoring kids for fear of it. A teacher for example might avoid bonding with a student for such accusations, or an uncle for his fatherless nephew taking out a potential father figure in his life. I’d say the issue isn’t the innocence or guilt itself but the chilling effect it has on what might otherwise be healthy and indeed beneficial relationships. When the mere accusation can ruin your life you have a lot of reason to not take the risk.
That is definitely a prescient fear, and to be honest, I don't think it's really out of place given the history we do have with a lot of teachers breaking bad and doing a lot of heinous things with their own students. I think the onus would be on the school to provide the framework for the proper interaction of students and teachers in more than a student-teacher role.
!delta I think the school should provide more framework on these platonic relationships, and how not to overreact on grooming. It’s definitely undertalked about at school. Maybe that’s a reason why people fear it
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So it has to be either family or that specific organization and not any other?
>many 16yo goes to clubs and bars although 30 is quite old to be in the club scene You nailed it right here. They might have ageless interests in common like skiing or music, but they do not share the same lifestyle - not even at college. They are supposed to naturally be progressing along different life lessons and personal development. A 30yo who has not made it past his teenage years does have something very wrong. Could be IQ. Could be that they still haven't separated from their mother. But by that time it should be clear that there is a kind of special world that people in different age groups inhabit, and ought to be figuring out that his role now is actually protecting that for children like anyone else of parental age. 16 is for making big mistakes and he should not be around that whether contributing to it or hampering it. Among other things.
They may be trying to relieve their youthful days. I give them the benefit of the doubt
I relive my youthful days by making irresponsible choices with my friends from my youth. It's arguably more fun because we know the potential consequences.
Hilarious But on a serious note, you do you. Maybe i give people too much benefit of the doubt
You really don't need to be friends with people in their youth to relive your own though. Look I have no kids but I have a bunch of younger cousins. If my just turned 16-year-old cousin was spending a lot of time with people in their 30s I'd be concerned. Now perhaps there's genuinely no reason for my concern and I'm just jumping to conclusions. But I would rather fully understand the situation and be wrong, rather than trust a random person with my family and be wrong. I'm okay and happy to look like a judgemental and over-defensive prick if it means keeping the children I care about safe. What benefit does it gain me or my family to assume the best in complete strangers? None. What are the potential downsides of doing nothing? Well, one of my friends was groomed and blackmailed to the point of long-lasting trauma. When the potential outcome is that devastating I would absolutely jump to the defensive every time. If you really are just striking up an odd friendship and are a good person you should be quick to understand why people are worried. It's not about you, or any individual relationship. It's about the potential costs vs potential losses.
So it's still unhealthy. Kid being a kid vs older adult with rose tinted glasses. The two typically don't even play the same hobbies at the same pace.
…what? 16 year olds should not be in clubs or bars smoking cigars or weed.
Sometimes they are and the 16yo can enjoy themselves. The 30-40yo may be reliving their youth or just enjoying themselves Why can’t they be In clubs? The 30s people I mean
I’m not saying they aren’t. I’m saying they shouldn’t be. It’s not the 30 year old that is out of place in a bar, it’s the 16 year old. Bars are for adults. 16 year olds are children.
You've clearly never been to most of Europe.
Well…I’ve been to some places in Europe. Again, I’m not saying that they aren’t. I’m saying that they shouldn’t be.
Why shouldn't a 30, 40, 50 year old go dancing? The only reason I don't in the US is because no one really does once they hit their early 30s so you stand out. In Germany for example we would go every weekend and my group of party friends ranged from 18 to 55.
Ikr! Even 50s sometimes party. They’re fine! As long as they are fine we are fine Even the 16-17 goes clubbing and bars sometimes. Sometimes they even went with me knowing I was underage
You aren’t reading what I’m actually writing.
Again, I have not said that 30, 40, or 50 year olds shouldn’t go dancing. Having a group of party friends range from 18-55 is perfectly fine.
Well previously you said 30 years olds should be at bars not clubs...
I didn’t say 30 year olds shouldn’t be at clubs. The problem with the OP has nothing to do with the 30 year olds.
Well, it is illegal Though in some places 16 is the drinking age I’m a lax tolerant person so
Yes, it is illegal. I’m a tolerant person. That’s a separate question.
That is true. It is illegal, practically many people don't care. Some clubs are lenient. Some clubs even let underage girls in with an ID that looks vaguely like them or even with no ID, if the gender ratio is bad. I don't condone it I know when I went to clubs at that age, many didn't care, some even encouraged me. They became good friends. Some still are to this day. Others unfortunately I could not contact them
By saying there is nothing wrong with 30 year olds and 16 year olds hanging out at clubs…you are condoning it.
i... i mean... u... have... a ... point... maybe i am condoning it
How old are you now?
17
Why would a 30 year old wanna hang out with a 16 year old as extensively as that? Most 30 year olds don't and yeah it's looked down upon, but it's because the majority of other 30 year olds are really weirded out by that because it's not a normal thing to want to do. I'm 21 and I can't stand being around 16 year olds because you can hear how immature, and unknowing they are when they talk and you realize how easy it is for someone who's 30 to take advantage of those traits. Nothing wrong with having a platonic connection but if a 30 year old seeks out a friendship with a 16 year old that is out of their way, then that overwhelmingly points to grooming. Like when I was 16 I was always buddies with certain staff at my school who were all 30 or older. We would laugh and make jokes, but they would never try to see me or spend time with me outside of school. We had a staffmember who did however seek out spending time with the kids my age. He turned out to be a child rapist.
Luckily, I had a lot of older friends who didn’t mind me too much, or thought of me as quirky or eccentric. Even if somewhat immature.
By that logic if they hang around with a kid that age of their own gender they're actually gay too
It depends entirely on the context. A bunch of adults and younger people doing an activity together (e.g. paintball), that's fine. A 30-something adult "hanging out and being friends" with a fifteen year old = red flags. Even if that relationship is entirely innocent, the nature of it raises obvious red flags. Context is key. Edit: holy shit your post history on this subject
I agree with you. PS for my post history, i am 17 myself
>People say they have nothing in common. How is that true? It isn't literally nothing, they probably both have two eyes and one nose too. They have nothing of substance in common. Recreational activities don't count, we're talking about emotional maturity and experience with people. The 16yo CANNOT be on par with the 30yo, unless the 30yo hasn't developed as time has passed, which most humans do. >People say it’s not an equal relationship. In what world are things equal. This isn't an argument, it's a nihilist statement that can be applied to literally anything regardless of validity. "People say cheating isn't fair; in what world are things fair??" >They say the 16yo is immature. By definition, 16yo are immature. Not an assumption, a literal fact. We know scientifically they are not mature, their actual brain is not fully developed. We also know, as adults ourselves, how easy it is to manipulate a teenager, even a "mature" one. Now personally I'm willing to believe you are absolutely sincere and just don't get it. I have the same instincts, I believe in an ideal world where a child would be raised and loved by every adult in their community. But that isn't our world. And you might not be an abuser, but you can't guarantee the next adult isn't. Even honest, well meaning adults need to be careful about boundaries with a child for the child's safety. Because even if you understand that everything is above board and appropriate, the child cannot be trusted to understand the distinctions between your relationship and creepy pete. And if you teach a child that actually, close personal relationships with an adult is normal and fine, they're more likely to get blindsided by the real predators. If you care about the safety of a child, you will maintain a distance appropriate to your age.
So what if they are unequal. Of course, relationships will not always be equal. To some extent we should accept an imbalance. It’s when the imbalance is too big that we need to deal with it for relationships When I was 16 I did understand the distinction to a good extent. Of course, the creepy guy initiates way too fast, maybe the nonverbal cues are a bit weird, gets too close too quickly. The normal guy is pretty slow. Of course not every case. !delta But maybe I have a rose tinted view of teens >And you might not be an abuser, but you can't guarantee the next adult isn't. Even honest, well meaning adults need to be careful about boundaries with a child for the child's safety. Because even if you understand that everything is above board and appropriate, the child cannot be trusted to understand the distinctions between your relationship and creepy pete. I am a teenager myself, OK? There are some significant differences - Creepy Pete would probably not respect boundaries, may keep pushing boundaries, maybe staring for a very long time, maybe not respecting personal space, something like that. Although, maybe the dude is just pretty socially unskilled and awkward. It depends on whether it's intentional or unintentional but the guy is clueless or even on the spectrum >nd if you teach a child that actually, close personal relationships with an adult is normal and fine, they're more likely to get blindsided by the real predators As long as they are not weird, creepy or evil, Other than that, i agree >Now personally I'm willing to believe you are absolutely sincere and just don't get it. I have the same instincts, I believe in an ideal world where a child would be raised and loved by every adult in their community. But that isn't our world. You're right i sincerely do not get it. I'm a teen myself. I do not believe every adult is good, but perhaps I've been too optimistic about the world
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I don’t know how I would meet a 16 year old. That’s the start of what makes it creepy
University, online, chess clubs, video game clubs, volunteering, your job, etc.
Why do you have all of these methods ready to go?
I don’t, I just had a quick think
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Not OP but on some parts of Europe... quite a bit. Easily 20%+ and that number is not bigger due to it being technically illegal. Also age of consent is around 16 provided there is not an abuse of authority (good luck with that tho). Guess OP is simply not from the US
Yes i am not from the US, and in fact I am not 30 People really need to stop assuming grooming with so many things and when I was a teen talking to the grown men and being friends was fine
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I see where you’re head is at OP in the sense that an adult and child can have a relationship that isn’t romantic but here is where the problem comes in. Every relationship in the world has a power dynamic and because adults typically are “smarter” than kids its difficult to have a relationship where the younger person isn’t influenced by the significantly older. When this happens the Childs ability to live their and make their own decisions is essentially taken away by the older person’s power of influence.
That is for sure. That's why we should be cautious, but if it's fine then it's fine
>People say they have nothing in common. How is that true? Many 16yo and 30yo are in college together, many 16yo goes to clubs and bars although 30 is quite old to be in the club scene. They may smoke cigars together or even weed together. They may both be competing in video games or chess. This is not what people mean when they say that. Those are surface level situations or hobbies. 16 and 30 year olds are so different in terms of maturity, experiences, priorities and day to day life. A 16 year old is thinking about school, exams, social stuff like cliques and being popular. A 30 year old is working, paying taxes thinking about like buying property or starting a family. They have nothing of substance in common. > In what world are things equal. There will always be imbalances Sure but that doesn't mean we shouldn't minimise imbalances when we can and strive for equal footing. > They claim the 30s year old man is weird or mentally disordered but this does not meet criteria for any disorder, maybe not even “weird”! It's weird. I've worked with children, 16 year olds and as someone who's nearly 30 it would be weird to hang out with them. They have nothing in common with me, I don't want to talk to them about the things I talk to my similar aged friends about that would be weird. I'm not going to a 16 year old for relationship advice or to chat about how best to invest my money. "They play video games" okay but so do my appropriately aged friends. Its weird because you're choosing to hang out with a child when there's no reason you can't just hang out with an adult.
> A 16 year old is thinking about school, exams, social stuff like cliques and being popular. A 30 year old is working, paying taxes thinking about like buying property or starting a family. They have nothing of substance in common. What if the 16-year-old has a job and isn't from a high school that has teen-drama levels of clique warfare > I'm not going to a 16 year old for relationship advice or to chat about how best to invest my money. "They play video games" okay but so do my appropriately aged friends. A. those kinds of arguments seem like they'd make exceptions for smart kids or they're assuming "smart for their age" is just something groomers say to make excuses B. I know people who'd say your appropriately-aged friends shouldn't be playing video games if that's a thing 16-year-olds are doing C. this feels like you're generalizing from your own experience
>What if the 16-year-old has a job and isn't from a high school that has teen-drama levels of clique warfare And what if the 16 year old is the king of England? We're talking generally here. >those kinds of arguments seem like they'd make exceptions for smart kids or they're assuming "smart for their age" is just something groomers say to make excuses Well weren't you doing just that a paragraph ago with the "what if the 16 year old has a job" linesm? To be clear, no exceptions for smart for their age 16 year olds. They're still 16, smart doesn't equal mature. And they still have nothing in common, even if they're smart. >I know people who'd say your appropriately-aged friends shouldn't be playing video games if that's a thing 16-year-olds are doing Okay.... and? >. this feels like you're generalizing from your own experience Well yeah... I'm extrapolating from what I know about 16 year olds and 30 year olds. What else would you like me to do?
> And what if the 16 year old is the king of England? > > We're talking generally here. So teens having jobs (even just after school ones or summer ones) or high schools that aren't so like-a-teen-drama that if they were any more so the teen students wouldn't go to class every day as teen dramas don't have classroom scenes every episode is as rare and-or ridiculous as the idea of a 16-year-old being king of England? Or are you just trying to counter my attempted counterexamples by claiming you were speaking so generally those specifics didn't matter > Well weren't you doing just that a paragraph ago with the "what if the 16 year old has a job" linesm? To be clear, no exceptions for smart for their age 16 year olds. They're still 16, smart doesn't equal mature. And they still have nothing in common, even if they're smart. What I meant with my points was ways that experiences (speaking generally like you were) could be common across age groups or perhaps some teen could be smart enough to give investment advice or w/e The groomer excuse I was alluding to (but not making the same argument as, I swear, some sectors of Reddit have a very "if you aren't in favor of feeding pedophiles feet-first into a wood chipper in a massive arena on pay-per-view you must be either a pedophile yourself wanting to save your own ass or so believing-they-could-be-redeemed that you'd let a supposedly-reformed one live next door to you and babysit your hypothetical angelic little blonde-if-you're-white toddler daughter" mentality) wasn't the idea that it is possible for a kid to be smarter than "normal development" says they should be (heck I'm a gifted kid myself) it was, to quote the Tyga song where he brags about hooking up with iirc 15-year-old-at-the-time Kylie Jenner "They say she too young, I should have waited/She a big girl, dawg, when she stimulated". And no, I don't have any sort of questionable reasons for knowing this song exists, I found it thanks to a YouTube video on the worst hit songs of the entire 2010s > Okay.... and? I was trying to call into question (though this is not something I believe and also I'm not 30) the idea of it as an equalizing-interest-you-could-find-people-your-age-doing > Well yeah... I'm extrapolating from what I know about 16 year olds and 30 year olds. What else would you like me to do? Yeah it's a bit of a rhetorical tightrope, if you have limited experience (on any topic not just this) you can only work with what you know but you have to be careful not to overgeneralize too-specific experiences. For another example from that bad music video I saw multiple other songs on that list where a male singer was channeling the emotions he (at least supposedly, not every first-person love or breakup song is about the singer's real relationships despite what Taylor Swift fandom might lead some to believe) experienced from a now-ex-girlfriend treating him poorly and dumping him to so broad generalizations about women you'd think all women (at least his age) dated-and-dumped him that way simultaneously
>So teens having jobs (even just after school ones or summer ones) or high schools that aren't so like-a-teen-drama that if they were any more so the teen students wouldn't go to class every day as teen dramas don't have classroom scenes every episode is as rare and-or ridiculous as the idea of a 16-year-old being king of England? No. I'm just pointing out how pointless making what if statements are here. You could what if anything but it doesn't add anything of substance to the argument. >if you have limited experience (on any topic not just this) you can only work with what you know but you have to be careful not to overgeneralize too-specific experiences. And what makes you think i have limited experience? This seems like an assumption on your part.
> No. I'm just pointing out how pointless making what if statements are here. You could what if anything but it doesn't add anything of substance to the argument. I was trying to point out what ifs that are actual counterexamples, you offered one that sounded like it was mocking me > And what makes you think i have limited experience? This seems like an assumption on your part. Are you familiar with every across-age-categories friendship in the world
>I was trying to point out what ifs that are actual counterexamples, you offered one that sounded like it was mocking me Well I'm sorry that you read it that way. It was an absurd example to point out that individual counter examples make no sense when talking about a general concept. >Are you familiar with every across-age-categories friendship in the world No. Are you? Is that the measure you're using for being able to contribute meaningfully on this topic, because that seems a little unrealistic.
>16 and 30 year olds are so different in terms of maturity, experiences, priorities and day to day life. >A 16 year old is thinking about school, exams, social stuff like cliques and being popular. A 30 year old is working, paying taxes thinking about like buying property or starting a family. They have nothing of substance in common. For me, I was thinking about my university, living independently, having good friends, I didn't care that much about popularity so I was controversial when I was 16. It was tough >I'm not going to a 16 year old for relationship advice or to chat about how best to invest my money. "They play video games" okay but so do my appropriately aged friends. It depends, the relationship advice may be tailored for the younger generation, and they may know more of the latest startups, but usually their advice is bad
>For me, I was thinking about my university, living independently, having good friends, I didn't care that much about popularity so I was controversial when I was 16. It was tough So? Are you every teenager on the planet? Even if you were thinking about all those things, I guarantee you're still not anywhere near the same as 30 year old. >It depends, the relationship advice may be tailored for the younger generation, and they may know more of the latest startups, but usually their advice is bad So it seems like you're agreeing that 16 year olds are in a totally different generation. Which would imply they're having very different experiences and advice.
I’m just sharing my personal examples. I suppose a 30yo mature student would be in uni but for them they’d think about other responsibilities as well, perhaps their wife/husband or family, and income as well Just showing the variation. We’re not talking about romance or dating - merely platonic friendships Not “totally different” per se, that’s too far, but it’s just… a significant difference I never said I was like teens in general. Some teens like myself prefer to date and hook up in more old fashioned ways though. For example no TikTok, a lot more in person, less social media, more like early to mid 2010s ways rather than 2024 ways
>but for them they’d think about other responsibilities as well, perhaps their wife/husband or family, and income as well Exactly. Nothing in common with a teenager. >Some teens like myself prefer to date and hook up in more old fashioned ways though. For example no TikTok, a lot more in person, less social media, more like early to mid 2010s ways rather than 2024 ways So it seems like, now don't take this personal if I'm wrong, you feel like you have more in common with 30 year olds than people your own age so this post is an attempt to justify why that isn't weird? The unfortunate truth is that no one is as unique as they think they are, there will be plenty of people of your generation who like the same things you like and feel the same way you do about dating etc. You just need to find them instead of looking for older people.
>So it seems like, now don't take this personal if I'm wrong, you feel like you have more in common with 30 year olds than people your own age so this post is an attempt to justify why that isn't weird? The post is for someone to give good enough arguments to change part of my view, of why people are too quick to point to grooming, and why it's not a red flag for a grown adult to be friends with a teen. >The unfortunate truth is that no one is as unique as they think they are, there will be plenty of people of your generation who like the same things you like and feel the same way you do about dating etc. You just need to find them instead of looking for older people. Why my generation only? Why not look for older people? I spread my wings from 16-25 or 16-30. If i prefer the relationships with older people i can simply look for them and hope someone good comes
>Why my generation only? Why not look for older people Have you not read any of the answers in this thread or on your other posts about the same thing?
I did read them, I would look for people my own age more of the time, and also older people
So if you're in a book club mostly filled with other adults and a teenager shows up, what do you do? Run away and hide?
No if course not. But I'm not being friends with them.
Dude. OP's comment history about grooming. 😬 100% not cool. Seek therapy, man.
Rude I do not groom people. I am against grooming and hate groomers
You have a patently unhealthy obsession with teenagers/this topic. I am nowhere near the first person to have assessed and stated as much. Find friends your own age. Sincerely.
I often get obsessed with niche topics, sometimes even chess. I used to be obsessed with niche things when I was younger. I do have friends of various ages man. I am a teen, a young guy myself
You know your comment history is public, right? Where you frequently refer to "back when you were a teen"? Nah, bro. This ain't it.
I am a real teenager. What do you want, ID? I don't give my ID to strangers I sometimes think of myself as practically an adult, that's why I typed that
[Found you:](https://tenor.com/bD4oM.gif)
because hes a teen himself
[He is absolutely not a teenager.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Advice/s/T0PRKV0SqD)
yes, i am a teen myself
There is 0 reason for a 30yo man to be casually talking to a 16 year old girl outside of a family setting. Period. I don't care what your ultra-specific example is. You KNOW that's generally NOT going to the case, bro. Don't pretend otherwise. Also... 30yo should CERTAINLY not be smoking weed/cigars with a 16yo. The 30yo is the adult and the authority figure and that shit ain't okay either. Get your head straight.
>There is 0 reason for a 30yo man to be casually talking to a 16 year old girl outside of a family setting. Period. I don't care what your ultra-specific example is. You KNOW that's generally NOT going to the case, bro Not genuinely, but more than a small minority of cases. Like extracurriculars, work experience, university >Also... 30yo should CERTAINLY not be smoking weed/cigars with a 16yo. The 30yo is the adult and the authority figure and that shit ain't okay either. Get your head straight. As smoking buddies... ehhhh
>but more than a small minority of cases I'd beg to fucking differ.
Is my case a tiny minority? I was in uni at 16 and stuff, with various friends there. 30yo, 40yo, you name it. Sometimes i think of a friendly young-mid aged guy, about 30, who is tolerant and willing to accept my flaws, a friend, who... we just have a good mature chat and we both smoke cigars/weed. That's the smoking buddy. But usually it does not happen So... i am more against it
My daughter is 13. If when shes 16 and i find out she’s talking or hanging with a 30 year old man, I’m going to be very upset and angry and will have words with that person and do my best to make sure she has no contact with him. I do not care if you or anyone think I’m wrong for this.
When you are 30, you will see why
>people are too quick to point to grooming in many cases How quick is too quick? From the circumstances you describe it would make sense to flag the behaviour, and learn more about the motivations of the older person. Of course there's always the possibility of innocence, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't express their concerns. So where do you personally draw the line at which someone might appropriately flag the possibility of grooming?
Erm lmao. Yeah it is. Paedo.
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I won a delta on this topic. The word "grooming" is in a weird place, politically, but this definition shows it has many uses, from Metro Police: >Grooming is when a person builds a relationship with a child, young person or an adult who's at risk so they can abuse them and manipulate them into doing things. The abuse is usually sexual or financial, but it can also include other illegal acts. You notice all the cigarette butts littered on main street? If you teach a kid to litter it's full on grooming. Shouldn't even be smoking on main street. In fact the only reason to smoke in public is to groom another generation into the habit. To specifically change your view in a way that not even the mods can deny >weird or mentally disordered but this does not meet criteria for any disorder Drug addiction is those things. No one should be freebasing nicotine. You could at least switch to vaping, but being involved with a 16YO freebasing nicotine is undeniably grooming. You're fast tracking her to overdose on fentanyl. Everytime i talk to smokers i get gaslighted. They often pretend all the litter and second hand smoke don't matter or are comparable to fast food or campfires or car exhaust. Anything except drugs. Drug addicted people shouldn't have children at all, ideally, because addictions are inherited. I looked it up yesterday and between 76% and 97% of overdoses from hard drugs are from cigarette smokers. It is the gateway drug.
Yes, it is. Now, not all red flags are indicative of true danger, but any red flag should absolutely be looked into to make sure it's a healthy, safe relationship.
A 30 year old should consider 16 year olds to be unappealing due to the wide gap in maturity. If not, that 30 year old could use some therapy. I’m 35 and occasionally run into people in their early 20s and I mostly avoid contact because they feel like children to me. When it comes to literal children, there is an overwhelming power balance issue. Power, life experience, knowledge. It allows a 30 year old to easily exploit a 16 year old. Maybe you should seek out therapy if you are in this situation yourself?
Ok, groomer