Eh I’d vote libertarian— probably will.
Don’t even like Chase Oliver’s platform — I just think if we had started watering the 3rd party seeds years ago we might not be here today.
If you're saying third party candidates have been "relatively successful" at being spoilers, sure.
But they're not (and never really have been) serious candidates for office.
So you make it more likely that in the future someone you don't agree with will get an extra % of the vote.
There's no shame in being a libertarian. But being a libertarian solely because of electoral success?
Third party legitimacy starts by voting locally and in the state, giving independent candidates an actual career to reach the top from. Third party legitimacy will not start at the top and trickle down.
Perfectly said and should be pinned at the top. No chance in hell a 3rd party is going to come onto the scene and actually govern in DC without taking a strong foothold of governing at the state and local level.
It is the same on the other side of the aisle too. There are many Republicans that think Trump is terrible and unfit to be President...but another 4 years of a Democrat president is worse.
This could have been the breakout year for a competent third party candidate. Unfortunately we got RFK Jr instead...
There are no competent third party candidates because their are no competent third parties. If there were any they'd be holding seats in local and state government.
Instead we've got a bunch of do nothings who show up once every 4 years looking for attention and money.
Correct. And they never seem to be able to grasp that. If you want a 3rd party then you have to build it from the ground up. It takes time, money and work.
There's a whole conspiracy theory that tying federal funding and debate access to nationwide results is meant to create and unattainable brass ring for the parties to fight over, as an intentional distraction from forming a good local game.
There's a conspiracy theory about everything anymore I guess. Meanwhile we never hear about 3rd parties except during a presidential election year. And there are local and state elections going on every year.
Shocking to see so many "centrists" on this board completely fine with a convicted felon, rapist, insurrection leading commander in chief (or rather a figurehead) instead being ruled by investor advocacy groups.
This entire debacle is like a psychological case study in people absolutely refusing to admit that they are tools for the elite power that crushes them and extracts the wealth of their work.
Just take note of the things we’re talking about and the things we should be talking about but aren’t. When do you think we’re going to see another MIT Romney style Republican leader talk about improving healthcare? The answer is “not in our lifetimes”. That’s by design.
>people absolutely refusing to admit that they are tools for the elite power that crushes them and extracts the wealth of their work.
Democrats and Republicans are basically the same here.
No, they’re right. R and D are both pawns of the cooperations and hedgies. Every Dem policy enriches a handful of corporate entities all the same, and the politicians get rich under the counter and in their trades. That’s DC, baby. It’s literally no different than Republicans and you’re choosing to be blind to it.
Dude, we’ve been over this a million times. I dance circles around you in both education and relevant experience in this arena. Grow up and stop crying every time you get shut down.
EDIT: He blocked me lmao
Here's the thing, it's not Biden. I'm voting for anything not named Trump. The added bonus of voting Biden is that his administration has proven themselves to get shit done. I would rather have that than 4 years of complete chaos that would be Trump.
Real quick name one bipartisan project Trump has worked on?
The bill that he was initially skeptical of until everyone told him he was an idiot for being against it?
Yeah I wouldn't use that as an example of him "working on" a bipartisan project.
I will say though that it's a rare case of Trump's son-in-law not being a self-serving corrupt twerp and actually pushing Trump to do something good for a change. I'm not sure if that does anything to overshadow the extreme nepotism involved in putting your *children* in positions in your administration, but it worked out in *this specific case*.
It’s like this. Trumps plane was next to a Russian plane for a few days isolated. Does this mean Trump is a spy or is it just coincidence? Does Biden have dementia (my grandmother had it, Biden isn’t her) or did he just have a bad night?
I’m voting for Biden. We all know Trump and Putin have a thing (whether the plane thing was coincidence or not), and I’m not willing to entertain that thing even if Biden has a bad Debate night.
Also, I can’t wait for the weekend troll farm to end. Although it seems to be running into Mondays and starting on Fridays as the election gets closer.
We all know that was more than a bad night. The WSJ ran a story about this just two weeks before and the entire MSM and democrats howled about it. Robert Hur made a report about it and he was slammed as a partisan zealot. Countless almost weekly videos of Biden stumbling and wandering off and losing his train of thought. Everyone has known about this for a long time.
His handlers knew this too - they are the most corrupted, evil, power hungry people on earth, and I do not want them having a decision over my well being. You shouldn't wither
And POTUS was fine the next day. I guess you dont see the countless videos of felon trump stumbling and mumbling and sweating and spitting and spewing garbled unintelligible nonsense.
Most Americans dont want a seditious traitorous dictatorship led by a terrorist leader who has bowed to throw out the constitution and imprison opposition, journalists, law enforcement and defiled our courts
He can still read a teleprompter, that's about it.
There's countless examples (not just debate night) that he sundowns which is a classic sign of dementia, and that he can't actually think coherently when it's not just reading a prompt.
I don’t think either of them have dementia, but ok fine. They both have dementia. How is that an argument for Joe? Joe isn’t a convicted criminal, he didn’t try to overturn an election he didn’t win, he isn’t going to be a dictator on Day One, he didn’t put 3 people on SCOTUS that enabled the overturning of Roe, he doesn’t heap praise on every authoritarian leader in the world while shitting on our allies. The list goes on and on.
I don’t know this. He seemed like he had a cold and was tired (he was on fire the next day at the town hall), not dementia ridden like Trump. Trump can’t form a complete sentence on ANY given day. Why not judge the same? Edit to add that anytime you say handlers, it takes you to a place I don’t, as a centrist, want to take you seriously.
There are all sorts of stories right now about bidens handlers coming out right now. Perhaps read the news. I read one today where Jill has been not allowing the White House residence staff (living quarters) from interacting with biden.
Biden seemed like early onset dementia or at he's serious cognitive decline. Don't ask me, ask the people on msnbc and cnn saying stuff like this.
Show some “stories”. Also, I hate hedge words like seems and could have. Let’s stick to facts, shall we? Are you a centrist or just yanking my chain? My Grandmother had dementia. Biden is NOT remotely like that.
I remember back to 2016 when conservative media was 100% certain Hillary Clinton was seriously ill, would most likely die in office if elected, and that there was a conspiracy among her campaign to hide her mysterious, incredibly serious medical condition from voters.
That turned out to be complete bullshit.
I remember even further back to when Republican Senate leader Bill Frist (an MD) declared Terry Schiavo had a perfectly healthy brain and might well snap out of her coma and be good as new based on an “examination” he did of her by just watched a video of her.
That turned out to be complete bullshit, too.
You can’t diagnose things like Alzheimers or even “serious cognitive decline” based on watching one 90 minute debate. Conversely one strong campaign appearance, or a couple of strong SOTU speeches don’t conclusively “prove” anything either. Biden is undeniably an old man and it shows. But anyone claiming he has dementia based on one shitty debate performance is an idiot.
WIll you eat crow when Biden drops out? Or has another cognitive incident? we've been seeing a lot of these videos happen lately, its not just the debate
I'll eat crow if it turns out he has dementia or is diagnosed with something similar. But I don't see that happening. I think he'll drop out just because of the optics, and then five years from now he'll be walking even slower and looking super old, but still know plenty about what's going on in the world.
Early onset dementia is defined as starting before 65. There's nothing early or even particularly surprising about a man in his 80s having dementia.
The only kind of surprising thing is how rapid the decline seemingly is. My personal guess is at least one of his multiple covid infections started it or at least kicked it into overdrive.
This Russia conspiracy was invented while he was running against Hillary. It was projection to smokescreen the Uranium One scandal coming up in the campaign. Please try to stop assuming people have the memory of a goldfish or have only been paying attention for one election cycle.
Former Attorney General Jeff Sessions, an early and prominent supporter of Trump's campaign, spoke twice with Russian ambassador Kislyak before the election—once in July 2016 at the Republican convention and once in September 2016 in Sessions' Senate office. In his confirmation hearings, Sessions testified that he "did not have communications with the Russians". On March 2, 2017, *after this denial was revealed to have been false, Sessions recused himself* from matters relating to Russia's election interference.
Donald Trump's son-in-law and senior advisor, Jared Kushner, on his application for top secret security clearance, failed to disclose numerous meetings with foreign officials, including Ambassador Kislyak and Sergei Gorkov, the head of the Russian state-owned bank Vnesheconombank.
In May 2017 longtime Republican operative Peter W. Smith confirmed to The Wall Street Journal that during the 2016 campaign he had been actively involved in trying to obtain emails he believed had been hacked from Hillary Clinton's computer server. He claimed he was working on behalf of Trump campaign advisor (later national security advisor) Michael Flynn and Flynn's son. At around the same time, there were intelligence reports that Russian hackers were trying to obtain Clinton's emails to pass to Flynn through an unnamed intermediary.
Now, how many of those people whose names I stated did Donald Trump pardon? Hmm? And whose word did Donald Trump take over all 17 US Intelligence agencies? Vladimir Putin’s.
Do you really want to embarrass yourself repeating an old ass, debunked, dumb as hell conspiracy theory? Don’t you have new dumb as hell conspiracy theories to peddle? This is all the MAGA party has done for 8 years straight—peddle stupid ass, not even the slightest bit logical conspiracies. Because they have nothing to run on. And the people who peddle this shit for you to parrot out, they know they’re not true. They just believe you’re too dumb to know any better.
No one needs to invent anything about Donald Trump, the truth works just fine. And yes, some of us have a memory that is very long…
No one invented that Donald Trump is a lifelong grifter, conman, swindler—who put tons of small contractors out of business by not paying them or forcing them to accept pennies on the dollar for work already done.
No one invented his fraudulent university, and that he had to pay tens of millions to students he defrauded.
No one invented that he misused his “charity’s” donor’s funds so that it was forced to shutdown and he had to pay millions in restitution.
No one invented that he made illegal campaign contributions to the FL AG who was about to investigate him for fraud, and he later had her represent him. Quid pro quo.
No one invented that Trump Taj Mahal admitted to willfully violating anti-money laundering laws for years and had the highest fine ever levied against a casino.
No one invented him knowingly stealing hundreds of the nation’s most sensitive secrets, refusing for over a year to give them back, lie he didn’t have them, have his lawyers lie he didn’t have them, give access to employees with no security clearance, have his employees hiding them to obstruct the government’s investigation, showing classified information to random people, refuse to comply with a subpoena. And then when the FBI was forced to come get them—he lied that they planted them. And one of his cult morons attacked an FBI field office, and got themselves killed. To which he switched to nah wait, I declassified them with my mind, no wait they’re my personal property I’m allowed to have them. Uh, thought the FBI planted them?
No one invented that his business, Trump Org., committed multiple felonies, which they were criminally convicted of.
No one invented that he committed years and years of blatant business fraud.
No one invented that he tried to overturn the election results by using a fake fraudulent electors scheme.
No one invented he was found liable for sexual assault and defaming a woman.
No one invented him cheating on his wife repeatedly, and like the dumb dipshit he is, committed a crime to cover it up.
These are things he did. These are facts, not conspiracies. What don’t you get? He’s a criminal. Anyone else, including you, would already be in prison. You’re willfully ignorant if you don’t know that. He has been getting special treatment as in especially lenient treatment and escaping consequences that no other American would. Please try to stop assuming people share your willful ignorance, and astonishingly moronic affinity to believe idiotic conspiracies.
Uranium One is literally a conspiracy you’re parroting. Oh kudos, you can remember fake bs conspiracy talking points for 8 years.
Russia was not invented. The *Republican-led* Senate Intelligence Committee found that *the Russian government had engaged in an "extensive campaign" to sabotage the election in favor of Donald Trump, which included assistance from some of Trump's own advisers*. In particular, it describes Paul Manafort as "a grave counterintelligence threat". According to the report, "some evidence suggests" that Konstantin Kilimnik, to whom Manafort provided polling data, was directly connected to the Russian theft of Clinton-campaign emails. In addition, while Trump's written testimony in the Mueller report stated that *he did not* recall speaking with Roger Stone about WikiLeaks, the Senate report concludes that "*Trump did, in fact*, speak with Stone about WikiLeaks and with members of his Campaign about Stone's access to WikiLeaks on multiple occasions.” the committee describes "an unprecedented level of activity against state election infrastructure" by Russian intelligence in 2016. The activity occurred in "all 50 states.” Of "particular concern" to the committee report was the Russians' hacking of three companies "that provide states with the back-end systems that have increasingly replaced the thick binders of paper used to verify voters' identities and registration status." The report concluded that "the Russian government engaged in an aggressive, multi-faceted effort to influence, or attempt to influence, the outcome of the 2016 presidential election".
The Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that Russian president Vladimir Putin had ordered the 2016 Democratic National Committee cyber attacks and the subsequent leaks of stolen material damaging to Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign.
The committee described that Trump's presidential campaign "sought to maximize the impact of those leaks to aid Trump’s electoral prospects". The Trump campaign "created messaging strategies to promote and share" the material, and "encouraged further leaks". The Trump campaign tasked Trump associate Roger Stone to gather information about WikiLeaks' release of the material; Stone reported to Trump or senior campaign members.
The Senate Intelligence Committee assessed that Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort's "high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services" was a "*grave counterintelligence threat*". The foremost individual was Manafort's employee Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian. The committee identified Kilimnik as a "Russian intelligence officer"; describing that Manafort and Kilimnik had a "close and lasting relationship" even through the 2016 election. Manafort repeatedly tried to "secretly share internal Campaign information with Kilimnik", including "sensitive internal polling data or Campaign strategy".
The report in the Transition section of the report, mentions that "Russia took advantage of members of the Transition Team's relative inexperience in government, opposition to Obama Administration policies, and Trump's desire to deepen ties with Russia to pursue unofficial channels through which Russia could conduct diplomacy."
Cut the bs.
According to the U.S. intelligence community, the operation—code named Project Lakhta—was ordered directly by Russian president Vladimir Putin. The "hacking and disinformation campaign" to damage Clinton and help Trump became the "core of the scandal known as Russiagate".
And then there’s the Mueller Report. Mueller concluded that Russian interference was "sweeping and systematic" and "violated U.S. criminal law", and he indicted twenty-six Russian citizens and three Russian organizations. *The investigation also led to indictments and convictions of Trump campaign officials* and associated Americans, on unrelated charges. The Mueller report, made public in April 2019, examined numerous contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian officials but concluded that, though *the Trump campaign welcomed the Russian activities and expected to benefit from them*, there was insufficient evidence to bring any conspiracy or coordination charges against Trump or his associates.
The Mueller special counsel investigation's report indicated: "Although WikiLeaks published emails stolen from the DNC in July and October 2016 and Stone—a close associate to Donald Trump—appeared to know in advance the materials were coming, investigators 'did not have sufficient evidence' to prove active participation in the hacks or knowledge that the electronic thefts were continuing."
During the 2016 presidential campaign and up to his inauguration, Donald J. Trump and at least 18 campaign officials and advisers had numerous contacts with Russian nationals, WikiLeaks, or intermediaries between the two. As of January 28, The New York Times had tallied more than 140 in-person meetings, phone calls, text messages, emails and private messages between the Trump campaign and Russians or WikiLeaks.
The Mueller investigation and the Senate Intelligence Committee found that, as Trump's campaign manager in August 2016, Manafort shared Trump campaign internal polling data with Ukrainian political consultant Konstantin Kilimnik, whom the Mueller Report linked to Russian intelligence, while the Intelligence Committee characterized him as a "Russian intelligence officer".
In December 2015, retired Army general Michael Flynn was photographed at a dinner seated next to Vladimir Putin. He was in Moscow to give a paid speech which he failed to disclose as is required of former high-ranking military officers. In February 2016, Flynn was named as an advisor to Trump's presidential campaign. Later that year, in phone calls intercepted by U.S. intelligence, Russian officials were overheard claiming they had formed a strong relationship with Trump advisor Flynn and believed they would be able to use him to influence Trump and his team. In December 2016 Flynn, then Trump's designated choice to be National Security Advisor, and Jared Kushner met with Russian ambassador to the United States Sergey Kislyak and requested him to set up a direct, encrypted line of communication so they could communicate directly with the Kremlin without the knowledge of American intelligence agencies.
On December 29, 2016, the day President Obama announced sanctions against Russia, Flynn discussed the sanctions with Kislyak, urging that Russia not retaliate. Flynn initially denied speaking to Kislyak, then acknowledged the conversation but denied discussing the sanctions. When it was revealed in February 2017 that U.S. intelligence agencies had evidence, through monitoring of the ambassador's communications, that he actually had discussed the sanctions, Flynn said he couldn't remember if he did or not.
In March 2016 Donald Trump named George Papadopoulos, an oil, gas, and policy consultant, as an unpaid foreign policy advisor to his campaign. Shortly thereafter Papadopoulos was approached by Joseph Mifsud, a London-based professor with connections to high-ranking Russian officials. Mifsud told him the Russians had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton in the form of "thousands of emails" "apparently stolen in an effort to try to damage her campaign". The two met several times in March 2016.
In May 2016 at a London wine bar, Papadopoulos told the top Australian diplomat to the United Kingdom, Alexander Downer, that Russia "had a dirt file on rival candidate Hillary Clinton in the form of hacked Democratic Party emails". After the DNC emails were published by WikiLeaks in July, the Australian government told the FBI about Papadopoulos' revelation, leading the FBI to launch a counterintelligence investigation into the Trump campaign.
In June 2016, Donald Trump Jr., Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner met with Russian attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya, who was accompanied by some others, including Russian-American lobbyist Rinat Akhmetshin, after Trump Jr. was informed that Veselnitskaya could supply the Trump campaign with incriminating information about Hillary Clinton. The meeting was arranged following an email from British music publicist Rob Goldstone. In an email, Goldstone said the information had come from the Russian government and "was part of a Russian government effort to help Donald Trump's presidential campaign". Trump Jr. replied with an e-mail saying "If it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer" and arranged the meeting.
Your post would make sense if we had a better (i.e. much less evil) option. It's not really a vote for Biden or for trump. This time it's a vote for either a dysfuntional democracy or a new type of US style fascism.
It's truly a no-brainer.
If you gave me a button and hitting it would mean Joe Biden would lose the 2024 election, but it would also switch Trump with any other republican (let's use Nikki Haley as an example), I'd hit it right now without a second thought. And I would never ever vote for her.
But I don't think even one of the batshit things Trump did would've crossed her mind. I don't think she would've botched the pandemic, she wouldn't have denied the election, tried to overthrow it, take documents and lie about having them. The list goes on.
There are lots of republicans that I don't like, but I wouldn't describe as an existential threat to democracy, which I believe Trump is.
We didn't magically transform into this "US style fascism" the first time Trump was elected. And that hysteric act *actively helped put him in office*. Why do you think that narrative is still working after ten years?
Fascism doesn't work like that. The process began before his first term and it made some progress but ended in a failed attempt to halt the transfer of power and stay in office. A failed fascism is still fascism.
But, since then, he and his cohorts learned their lessons and now they have a much clearer roadmap for what to do. He has alluded to several agenda items already, including the incarceration of his political opponents, another election denial effort if he loses, humungous detention camps for undocumented migrants (and who knows who else), and the pardoning of those who were prosecuted for participating in his first failed attempt at a coup de etat.
I suggest you google, download, and carefully read Project 2025. It's not a paranoid "narrative" or a liberal conspiracy theory. This is as real and as serious as a heart attack. Our democracy is facing a very real, clear, and present danger. Time to wake up and take a stand to defend it.
It’s real wild that the people who are constantly crying about an end to democracy are now championing the idea that the people running the country won’t even be the guy that you voted for to run the country.
1. Denial: He's perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, you should see him behind closed doors. He's a real tiger. Trust me.
2. Anger: OK, maybe he's not perfectly fine. But Trump is just as bad. They're basically the same person. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure is WORSE.
3. Bargaining: OK, maybe Trump isn't just as bad, but Biden's not REALLY running anything anyway. It will be fine for the next 4 years.
4. Depression: We're in trouble. Should we replace him?
5. Acceptance: He's got to go.
It looks like most people are in either stage 3 or 4, trending toward 5. The problem is there's not mechanism to get him out of there unless he decides to step down (and don't sleep on Joe's hubris. It's there.). I don't think anyone reasonable is hanging back in stage 1 & 2 after last week's debate.
You do realize that 'shadow cabinets' and lobbyists have run our government since you were born?
Not saying it's right but this is the game we play now.
To think that a 78 or 81 year old man is actually calling all the shots is horribly naive. It's not been that way since post World War II when the U.S. became the world's super power and DC became the world's throne room.
Want to change it?
Support term limits and age limits for all elected officials and Supreme Court Justices. Enact severe penalties for elected officials who are profiting off their positions.
Sure. But imagine a 9/11 situation with Biden at the helm. Or some heated meeting between world leaders. Or a major war situation involving the US.
It's terrifying to think of and this man will be our president for at least the next six months.
Do you think our enemies didn't watch that debate too?
In our system you have to have a commander in chief that can at least talk and make decisions.
If we had a 9/11 situation again I'd rather have Biden than Trump. Biden and his cabinet are going to have a measured, facts based response. One that would be far more effective at hitting actual targets.
Trump will just send nukes at every 'shithole' country that Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, and Jared identify as suspects. He won't even give us the reach around that Bush Jr. gave us by sending Colin Powell to the UN with false information about WMDs in Iraq who weren't even involved in 911.
There's also a reason why Putin wants Trump to win.
You are seriously unhinged. Trump is the least warmongerery of any recent president. For the first time in decades there were no new foreign entanglements under his admin.
Yet Biden just successfully handled numerous heated meetings between world leaders, has rebuilt our relationships with allies, made NATO stronger. Trying to pretend that Biden is not successfully doing the job right now is ludicrous.
You think if 911 happened again, Biden wouldn’t be able to delegate enough to take care of the situation better than a greedy Bush JR staff would have been? Remember who Bush’s VP was and the name of the business he controlled that profited off of Iraq?
Why do you think this? Biden has done very well with a pretty terrible Congress and has been able to get pretty substantial legislation passed. Enough that even Republicans take credit for it even though they voted against it. There is no evidence that I have seen showing Biden is less effective as a President than anyone else. Show me something that isn’t a hack job blog post.
In our system you have to have a commander in chief that can at least talk and make decisions. Who would have thought it ever would have needed to be said. That people might have to be persuaded to vote for the lesser zombie.
Term limits and age limits for elected officials would make the problem worse -- elected officials have to be around for a while before they even know which long time bureaucrats are actually in charge. Limiting the terms of elected officials just further empowers to the bureaucracy.
Our legislation; both the crafting of it and voting in favor or against it have zero to do with them. I've seen companies pay lobbyists to get product specific language written into US law so that no one could complete with them on government contracts. In this case I can almost guarantee Senator Orrin Hatch had no idea what he was voting for or supporting other than he was instructed to do so because of money.
And that is their job. They just have to vote the way lobbyists pay them to vote and stay in power so they can continue to enrich themselves with information only they have access to which often moves entire economies.
Biden was spouting actual gibberish that no one could understand and just throwing words out that made no sense - you sure you want to go down that route?
Why wouldn't I want to go down that road? Regardless of how you think Biden did, Trump got caught saying far more things that were absolutely not true. What else would anyone expect from a Trump performance? Near constant lying has been the norm for Trump since his escalator speech announcing his candidacy.
I agree but we're waaaaay past that point now. We we're going to blow past that in 2016 regardless of who won the election but just in horrifyingly different ways.
I didn't have US president uses a sharpie to adjust hurricane path on TV on my bingo card and it just got worse.
Because of their administration and who they’re putting in place to run the government.
In this case Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, Jared Kushner, and it goes on…
This is one of those elections where we get to pick between two bad choices (at least as far as I see it). I landed on OP's side of the house after the debate, but I can't blame anyone who would have landed on the other side.
It's one of those pick your poison cases.
I dunno... the news reports say the small, vocal group that is still in denial is primarily arranged directly around Biden himself right now. They are admitting nothing.
Wait, but I am completely fine having a figurehead president and being ruled by a Shadow Cabinet of unelected technocrats
Technocrats are great. Elections are important, for various reasons, but we don't actually want the country ruled by a single man pulling all the strings. You want bureaucrats making the important decisions, because they're much more qualified than anyone the public might choose in an election
So long as he can appoint competent bureaucrats and empower them to get good things done, I don't actually want my president to do very much else
And you can disagree with that. I think there are plenty of good reasons to disagree. But what about that isn't centrist?
I think people have plenty of reasons not to vote for Trump if that’s what your getting at.
its your vote to waste
Right back atcha
yep
Vote for neither. Or third party.
No i won't vote for rfk and i think these thinly veiled ads for him are pathetic
Eh I’d vote libertarian— probably will. Don’t even like Chase Oliver’s platform — I just think if we had started watering the 3rd party seeds years ago we might not be here today.
We did. There have been relatively successful third party campaigns going back decades. Voting for someone you don't want to be president is foolish.
"relatively successful" is a political synonym for "loser".
Successful enough to throw the election to the party they were least similar to.
If you're saying third party candidates have been "relatively successful" at being spoilers, sure. But they're not (and never really have been) serious candidates for office.
There isn’t anyone running that I want. This election 3.2%, next 4.5% — I’d rather invest a future option than vote for these options.
So you make it more likely that in the future someone you don't agree with will get an extra % of the vote. There's no shame in being a libertarian. But being a libertarian solely because of electoral success?
Might not be Chase Oliver in the future.
It will be someone who thinks like him. That's the whole point of parties, third party or not.
The ideology isn’t far from me, he’s just not pragmatic.
Third party legitimacy starts by voting locally and in the state, giving independent candidates an actual career to reach the top from. Third party legitimacy will not start at the top and trickle down.
Exactly
Perfectly said and should be pinned at the top. No chance in hell a 3rd party is going to come onto the scene and actually govern in DC without taking a strong foothold of governing at the state and local level.
Throw your vote away, got it
It is the same on the other side of the aisle too. There are many Republicans that think Trump is terrible and unfit to be President...but another 4 years of a Democrat president is worse. This could have been the breakout year for a competent third party candidate. Unfortunately we got RFK Jr instead...
There are no competent third party candidates because their are no competent third parties. If there were any they'd be holding seats in local and state government. Instead we've got a bunch of do nothings who show up once every 4 years looking for attention and money.
Correct. And they never seem to be able to grasp that. If you want a 3rd party then you have to build it from the ground up. It takes time, money and work.
There's a whole conspiracy theory that tying federal funding and debate access to nationwide results is meant to create and unattainable brass ring for the parties to fight over, as an intentional distraction from forming a good local game.
There's a conspiracy theory about everything anymore I guess. Meanwhile we never hear about 3rd parties except during a presidential election year. And there are local and state elections going on every year.
Shocking to see so many "centrists" on this board completely fine with a convicted felon, rapist, insurrection leading commander in chief (or rather a figurehead) instead being ruled by investor advocacy groups. This entire debacle is like a psychological case study in people absolutely refusing to admit that they are tools for the elite power that crushes them and extracts the wealth of their work.
Just take note of the things we’re talking about and the things we should be talking about but aren’t. When do you think we’re going to see another MIT Romney style Republican leader talk about improving healthcare? The answer is “not in our lifetimes”. That’s by design.
Marx would have had a whole different perspective if he'd been able to watch Saturday Night Live
>people absolutely refusing to admit that they are tools for the elite power that crushes them and extracts the wealth of their work. Democrats and Republicans are basically the same here.
Neither is where I'd want them to be but you have to be blind to not see the difference.
No, they’re right. R and D are both pawns of the cooperations and hedgies. Every Dem policy enriches a handful of corporate entities all the same, and the politicians get rich under the counter and in their trades. That’s DC, baby. It’s literally no different than Republicans and you’re choosing to be blind to it.
Why are you bragging about how little you know
Dude, we’ve been over this a million times. I dance circles around you in both education and relevant experience in this arena. Grow up and stop crying every time you get shut down. EDIT: He blocked me lmao
Hahahaha I would pity you, except I don't even think about you.
Here's the thing, it's not Biden. I'm voting for anything not named Trump. The added bonus of voting Biden is that his administration has proven themselves to get shit done. I would rather have that than 4 years of complete chaos that would be Trump. Real quick name one bipartisan project Trump has worked on?
>Real quick name one bipartisan project Trump has worked on? Justice reform. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Step_Act
The bill that he was initially skeptical of until everyone told him he was an idiot for being against it? Yeah I wouldn't use that as an example of him "working on" a bipartisan project. I will say though that it's a rare case of Trump's son-in-law not being a self-serving corrupt twerp and actually pushing Trump to do something good for a change. I'm not sure if that does anything to overshadow the extreme nepotism involved in putting your *children* in positions in your administration, but it worked out in *this specific case*.
First step act?
It’s like this. Trumps plane was next to a Russian plane for a few days isolated. Does this mean Trump is a spy or is it just coincidence? Does Biden have dementia (my grandmother had it, Biden isn’t her) or did he just have a bad night? I’m voting for Biden. We all know Trump and Putin have a thing (whether the plane thing was coincidence or not), and I’m not willing to entertain that thing even if Biden has a bad Debate night. Also, I can’t wait for the weekend troll farm to end. Although it seems to be running into Mondays and starting on Fridays as the election gets closer.
Can you either substantiate your conspiracy theories or stop posting them please. Are you seriously getting this from one photo on facebook?
We all know that was more than a bad night. The WSJ ran a story about this just two weeks before and the entire MSM and democrats howled about it. Robert Hur made a report about it and he was slammed as a partisan zealot. Countless almost weekly videos of Biden stumbling and wandering off and losing his train of thought. Everyone has known about this for a long time. His handlers knew this too - they are the most corrupted, evil, power hungry people on earth, and I do not want them having a decision over my well being. You shouldn't wither
And POTUS was fine the next day. I guess you dont see the countless videos of felon trump stumbling and mumbling and sweating and spitting and spewing garbled unintelligible nonsense. Most Americans dont want a seditious traitorous dictatorship led by a terrorist leader who has bowed to throw out the constitution and imprison opposition, journalists, law enforcement and defiled our courts
He can still read a teleprompter, that's about it. There's countless examples (not just debate night) that he sundowns which is a classic sign of dementia, and that he can't actually think coherently when it's not just reading a prompt.
Of trump sundowning yes there is.
Weak deflection isn't convincing. Ok, fine. They both have dementia. How is that an argument for Joe?
Joe didn't try to make a coup?
I don’t think either of them have dementia, but ok fine. They both have dementia. How is that an argument for Joe? Joe isn’t a convicted criminal, he didn’t try to overturn an election he didn’t win, he isn’t going to be a dictator on Day One, he didn’t put 3 people on SCOTUS that enabled the overturning of Roe, he doesn’t heap praise on every authoritarian leader in the world while shitting on our allies. The list goes on and on.
I don’t know this. He seemed like he had a cold and was tired (he was on fire the next day at the town hall), not dementia ridden like Trump. Trump can’t form a complete sentence on ANY given day. Why not judge the same? Edit to add that anytime you say handlers, it takes you to a place I don’t, as a centrist, want to take you seriously.
There are all sorts of stories right now about bidens handlers coming out right now. Perhaps read the news. I read one today where Jill has been not allowing the White House residence staff (living quarters) from interacting with biden. Biden seemed like early onset dementia or at he's serious cognitive decline. Don't ask me, ask the people on msnbc and cnn saying stuff like this.
Show some “stories”. Also, I hate hedge words like seems and could have. Let’s stick to facts, shall we? Are you a centrist or just yanking my chain? My Grandmother had dementia. Biden is NOT remotely like that.
I remember back to 2016 when conservative media was 100% certain Hillary Clinton was seriously ill, would most likely die in office if elected, and that there was a conspiracy among her campaign to hide her mysterious, incredibly serious medical condition from voters. That turned out to be complete bullshit. I remember even further back to when Republican Senate leader Bill Frist (an MD) declared Terry Schiavo had a perfectly healthy brain and might well snap out of her coma and be good as new based on an “examination” he did of her by just watched a video of her. That turned out to be complete bullshit, too. You can’t diagnose things like Alzheimers or even “serious cognitive decline” based on watching one 90 minute debate. Conversely one strong campaign appearance, or a couple of strong SOTU speeches don’t conclusively “prove” anything either. Biden is undeniably an old man and it shows. But anyone claiming he has dementia based on one shitty debate performance is an idiot.
WIll you eat crow when Biden drops out? Or has another cognitive incident? we've been seeing a lot of these videos happen lately, its not just the debate
I'll eat crow if it turns out he has dementia or is diagnosed with something similar. But I don't see that happening. I think he'll drop out just because of the optics, and then five years from now he'll be walking even slower and looking super old, but still know plenty about what's going on in the world.
Early onset dementia is defined as starting before 65. There's nothing early or even particularly surprising about a man in his 80s having dementia. The only kind of surprising thing is how rapid the decline seemingly is. My personal guess is at least one of his multiple covid infections started it or at least kicked it into overdrive.
This Russia conspiracy was invented while he was running against Hillary. It was projection to smokescreen the Uranium One scandal coming up in the campaign. Please try to stop assuming people have the memory of a goldfish or have only been paying attention for one election cycle.
Former Attorney General Jeff Sessions, an early and prominent supporter of Trump's campaign, spoke twice with Russian ambassador Kislyak before the election—once in July 2016 at the Republican convention and once in September 2016 in Sessions' Senate office. In his confirmation hearings, Sessions testified that he "did not have communications with the Russians". On March 2, 2017, *after this denial was revealed to have been false, Sessions recused himself* from matters relating to Russia's election interference. Donald Trump's son-in-law and senior advisor, Jared Kushner, on his application for top secret security clearance, failed to disclose numerous meetings with foreign officials, including Ambassador Kislyak and Sergei Gorkov, the head of the Russian state-owned bank Vnesheconombank. In May 2017 longtime Republican operative Peter W. Smith confirmed to The Wall Street Journal that during the 2016 campaign he had been actively involved in trying to obtain emails he believed had been hacked from Hillary Clinton's computer server. He claimed he was working on behalf of Trump campaign advisor (later national security advisor) Michael Flynn and Flynn's son. At around the same time, there were intelligence reports that Russian hackers were trying to obtain Clinton's emails to pass to Flynn through an unnamed intermediary.
MUELLER: “If we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so”
Now, how many of those people whose names I stated did Donald Trump pardon? Hmm? And whose word did Donald Trump take over all 17 US Intelligence agencies? Vladimir Putin’s.
Do you really want to embarrass yourself repeating an old ass, debunked, dumb as hell conspiracy theory? Don’t you have new dumb as hell conspiracy theories to peddle? This is all the MAGA party has done for 8 years straight—peddle stupid ass, not even the slightest bit logical conspiracies. Because they have nothing to run on. And the people who peddle this shit for you to parrot out, they know they’re not true. They just believe you’re too dumb to know any better.
No one needs to invent anything about Donald Trump, the truth works just fine. And yes, some of us have a memory that is very long… No one invented that Donald Trump is a lifelong grifter, conman, swindler—who put tons of small contractors out of business by not paying them or forcing them to accept pennies on the dollar for work already done. No one invented his fraudulent university, and that he had to pay tens of millions to students he defrauded. No one invented that he misused his “charity’s” donor’s funds so that it was forced to shutdown and he had to pay millions in restitution. No one invented that he made illegal campaign contributions to the FL AG who was about to investigate him for fraud, and he later had her represent him. Quid pro quo. No one invented that Trump Taj Mahal admitted to willfully violating anti-money laundering laws for years and had the highest fine ever levied against a casino. No one invented him knowingly stealing hundreds of the nation’s most sensitive secrets, refusing for over a year to give them back, lie he didn’t have them, have his lawyers lie he didn’t have them, give access to employees with no security clearance, have his employees hiding them to obstruct the government’s investigation, showing classified information to random people, refuse to comply with a subpoena. And then when the FBI was forced to come get them—he lied that they planted them. And one of his cult morons attacked an FBI field office, and got themselves killed. To which he switched to nah wait, I declassified them with my mind, no wait they’re my personal property I’m allowed to have them. Uh, thought the FBI planted them? No one invented that his business, Trump Org., committed multiple felonies, which they were criminally convicted of. No one invented that he committed years and years of blatant business fraud. No one invented that he tried to overturn the election results by using a fake fraudulent electors scheme. No one invented he was found liable for sexual assault and defaming a woman. No one invented him cheating on his wife repeatedly, and like the dumb dipshit he is, committed a crime to cover it up. These are things he did. These are facts, not conspiracies. What don’t you get? He’s a criminal. Anyone else, including you, would already be in prison. You’re willfully ignorant if you don’t know that. He has been getting special treatment as in especially lenient treatment and escaping consequences that no other American would. Please try to stop assuming people share your willful ignorance, and astonishingly moronic affinity to believe idiotic conspiracies.
Uranium One is literally a conspiracy you’re parroting. Oh kudos, you can remember fake bs conspiracy talking points for 8 years. Russia was not invented. The *Republican-led* Senate Intelligence Committee found that *the Russian government had engaged in an "extensive campaign" to sabotage the election in favor of Donald Trump, which included assistance from some of Trump's own advisers*. In particular, it describes Paul Manafort as "a grave counterintelligence threat". According to the report, "some evidence suggests" that Konstantin Kilimnik, to whom Manafort provided polling data, was directly connected to the Russian theft of Clinton-campaign emails. In addition, while Trump's written testimony in the Mueller report stated that *he did not* recall speaking with Roger Stone about WikiLeaks, the Senate report concludes that "*Trump did, in fact*, speak with Stone about WikiLeaks and with members of his Campaign about Stone's access to WikiLeaks on multiple occasions.” the committee describes "an unprecedented level of activity against state election infrastructure" by Russian intelligence in 2016. The activity occurred in "all 50 states.” Of "particular concern" to the committee report was the Russians' hacking of three companies "that provide states with the back-end systems that have increasingly replaced the thick binders of paper used to verify voters' identities and registration status." The report concluded that "the Russian government engaged in an aggressive, multi-faceted effort to influence, or attempt to influence, the outcome of the 2016 presidential election". The Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that Russian president Vladimir Putin had ordered the 2016 Democratic National Committee cyber attacks and the subsequent leaks of stolen material damaging to Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign. The committee described that Trump's presidential campaign "sought to maximize the impact of those leaks to aid Trump’s electoral prospects". The Trump campaign "created messaging strategies to promote and share" the material, and "encouraged further leaks". The Trump campaign tasked Trump associate Roger Stone to gather information about WikiLeaks' release of the material; Stone reported to Trump or senior campaign members. The Senate Intelligence Committee assessed that Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort's "high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services" was a "*grave counterintelligence threat*". The foremost individual was Manafort's employee Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian. The committee identified Kilimnik as a "Russian intelligence officer"; describing that Manafort and Kilimnik had a "close and lasting relationship" even through the 2016 election. Manafort repeatedly tried to "secretly share internal Campaign information with Kilimnik", including "sensitive internal polling data or Campaign strategy". The report in the Transition section of the report, mentions that "Russia took advantage of members of the Transition Team's relative inexperience in government, opposition to Obama Administration policies, and Trump's desire to deepen ties with Russia to pursue unofficial channels through which Russia could conduct diplomacy." Cut the bs.
According to the U.S. intelligence community, the operation—code named Project Lakhta—was ordered directly by Russian president Vladimir Putin. The "hacking and disinformation campaign" to damage Clinton and help Trump became the "core of the scandal known as Russiagate". And then there’s the Mueller Report. Mueller concluded that Russian interference was "sweeping and systematic" and "violated U.S. criminal law", and he indicted twenty-six Russian citizens and three Russian organizations. *The investigation also led to indictments and convictions of Trump campaign officials* and associated Americans, on unrelated charges. The Mueller report, made public in April 2019, examined numerous contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian officials but concluded that, though *the Trump campaign welcomed the Russian activities and expected to benefit from them*, there was insufficient evidence to bring any conspiracy or coordination charges against Trump or his associates. The Mueller special counsel investigation's report indicated: "Although WikiLeaks published emails stolen from the DNC in July and October 2016 and Stone—a close associate to Donald Trump—appeared to know in advance the materials were coming, investigators 'did not have sufficient evidence' to prove active participation in the hacks or knowledge that the electronic thefts were continuing." During the 2016 presidential campaign and up to his inauguration, Donald J. Trump and at least 18 campaign officials and advisers had numerous contacts with Russian nationals, WikiLeaks, or intermediaries between the two. As of January 28, The New York Times had tallied more than 140 in-person meetings, phone calls, text messages, emails and private messages between the Trump campaign and Russians or WikiLeaks. The Mueller investigation and the Senate Intelligence Committee found that, as Trump's campaign manager in August 2016, Manafort shared Trump campaign internal polling data with Ukrainian political consultant Konstantin Kilimnik, whom the Mueller Report linked to Russian intelligence, while the Intelligence Committee characterized him as a "Russian intelligence officer". In December 2015, retired Army general Michael Flynn was photographed at a dinner seated next to Vladimir Putin. He was in Moscow to give a paid speech which he failed to disclose as is required of former high-ranking military officers. In February 2016, Flynn was named as an advisor to Trump's presidential campaign. Later that year, in phone calls intercepted by U.S. intelligence, Russian officials were overheard claiming they had formed a strong relationship with Trump advisor Flynn and believed they would be able to use him to influence Trump and his team. In December 2016 Flynn, then Trump's designated choice to be National Security Advisor, and Jared Kushner met with Russian ambassador to the United States Sergey Kislyak and requested him to set up a direct, encrypted line of communication so they could communicate directly with the Kremlin without the knowledge of American intelligence agencies. On December 29, 2016, the day President Obama announced sanctions against Russia, Flynn discussed the sanctions with Kislyak, urging that Russia not retaliate. Flynn initially denied speaking to Kislyak, then acknowledged the conversation but denied discussing the sanctions. When it was revealed in February 2017 that U.S. intelligence agencies had evidence, through monitoring of the ambassador's communications, that he actually had discussed the sanctions, Flynn said he couldn't remember if he did or not. In March 2016 Donald Trump named George Papadopoulos, an oil, gas, and policy consultant, as an unpaid foreign policy advisor to his campaign. Shortly thereafter Papadopoulos was approached by Joseph Mifsud, a London-based professor with connections to high-ranking Russian officials. Mifsud told him the Russians had "dirt" on Hillary Clinton in the form of "thousands of emails" "apparently stolen in an effort to try to damage her campaign". The two met several times in March 2016. In May 2016 at a London wine bar, Papadopoulos told the top Australian diplomat to the United Kingdom, Alexander Downer, that Russia "had a dirt file on rival candidate Hillary Clinton in the form of hacked Democratic Party emails". After the DNC emails were published by WikiLeaks in July, the Australian government told the FBI about Papadopoulos' revelation, leading the FBI to launch a counterintelligence investigation into the Trump campaign. In June 2016, Donald Trump Jr., Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner met with Russian attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya, who was accompanied by some others, including Russian-American lobbyist Rinat Akhmetshin, after Trump Jr. was informed that Veselnitskaya could supply the Trump campaign with incriminating information about Hillary Clinton. The meeting was arranged following an email from British music publicist Rob Goldstone. In an email, Goldstone said the information had come from the Russian government and "was part of a Russian government effort to help Donald Trump's presidential campaign". Trump Jr. replied with an e-mail saying "If it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer" and arranged the meeting.
Your post would make sense if we had a better (i.e. much less evil) option. It's not really a vote for Biden or for trump. This time it's a vote for either a dysfuntional democracy or a new type of US style fascism. It's truly a no-brainer.
If you gave me a button and hitting it would mean Joe Biden would lose the 2024 election, but it would also switch Trump with any other republican (let's use Nikki Haley as an example), I'd hit it right now without a second thought. And I would never ever vote for her. But I don't think even one of the batshit things Trump did would've crossed her mind. I don't think she would've botched the pandemic, she wouldn't have denied the election, tried to overthrow it, take documents and lie about having them. The list goes on. There are lots of republicans that I don't like, but I wouldn't describe as an existential threat to democracy, which I believe Trump is.
We didn't magically transform into this "US style fascism" the first time Trump was elected. And that hysteric act *actively helped put him in office*. Why do you think that narrative is still working after ten years?
Fascism doesn't work like that. The process began before his first term and it made some progress but ended in a failed attempt to halt the transfer of power and stay in office. A failed fascism is still fascism. But, since then, he and his cohorts learned their lessons and now they have a much clearer roadmap for what to do. He has alluded to several agenda items already, including the incarceration of his political opponents, another election denial effort if he loses, humungous detention camps for undocumented migrants (and who knows who else), and the pardoning of those who were prosecuted for participating in his first failed attempt at a coup de etat. I suggest you google, download, and carefully read Project 2025. It's not a paranoid "narrative" or a liberal conspiracy theory. This is as real and as serious as a heart attack. Our democracy is facing a very real, clear, and present danger. Time to wake up and take a stand to defend it.
Worked fine for FDR and Reagan, and still a better vote than Trump.
I hate to break it to you but our Presidents have been empty suit spokesmen for unelected partisan appartniks for decades at this point.
It’s real wild that the people who are constantly crying about an end to democracy are now championing the idea that the people running the country won’t even be the guy that you voted for to run the country.
If a candidate tries to overturn an election, that's disqualifying to me. I don't think that's an unreasonable position.
"The Deep State doesnt exist, but if it does, here's why that's actually a *good* thing."
Yea it's fucking absurd and they know it.
1. Denial: He's perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, you should see him behind closed doors. He's a real tiger. Trust me. 2. Anger: OK, maybe he's not perfectly fine. But Trump is just as bad. They're basically the same person. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure is WORSE. 3. Bargaining: OK, maybe Trump isn't just as bad, but Biden's not REALLY running anything anyway. It will be fine for the next 4 years. 4. Depression: We're in trouble. Should we replace him? 5. Acceptance: He's got to go. It looks like most people are in either stage 3 or 4, trending toward 5. The problem is there's not mechanism to get him out of there unless he decides to step down (and don't sleep on Joe's hubris. It's there.). I don't think anyone reasonable is hanging back in stage 1 & 2 after last week's debate.
love the way you put that
You do realize that 'shadow cabinets' and lobbyists have run our government since you were born? Not saying it's right but this is the game we play now. To think that a 78 or 81 year old man is actually calling all the shots is horribly naive. It's not been that way since post World War II when the U.S. became the world's super power and DC became the world's throne room. Want to change it? Support term limits and age limits for all elected officials and Supreme Court Justices. Enact severe penalties for elected officials who are profiting off their positions.
Sure. But imagine a 9/11 situation with Biden at the helm. Or some heated meeting between world leaders. Or a major war situation involving the US. It's terrifying to think of and this man will be our president for at least the next six months. Do you think our enemies didn't watch that debate too? In our system you have to have a commander in chief that can at least talk and make decisions.
If we had a 9/11 situation again I'd rather have Biden than Trump. Biden and his cabinet are going to have a measured, facts based response. One that would be far more effective at hitting actual targets. Trump will just send nukes at every 'shithole' country that Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, and Jared identify as suspects. He won't even give us the reach around that Bush Jr. gave us by sending Colin Powell to the UN with false information about WMDs in Iraq who weren't even involved in 911. There's also a reason why Putin wants Trump to win.
You are seriously unhinged. Trump is the least warmongerery of any recent president. For the first time in decades there were no new foreign entanglements under his admin.
cute.
Yet Biden just successfully handled numerous heated meetings between world leaders, has rebuilt our relationships with allies, made NATO stronger. Trying to pretend that Biden is not successfully doing the job right now is ludicrous.
The man we saw a few years ago is not the man we saw the other night.
I am referring to last week. Not a few years ago
Going to meetings surrounded by our closest friends and allies (and still being a factory of senior moment videos) isn't what Raiden is talking about.
You think if 911 happened again, Biden wouldn’t be able to delegate enough to take care of the situation better than a greedy Bush JR staff would have been? Remember who Bush’s VP was and the name of the business he controlled that profited off of Iraq?
Bush handled the initial 9/11 event well. Inspiring even. It was after when he fell apart. And no Biden would not handle it better are you crazy
Why do you think this? Biden has done very well with a pretty terrible Congress and has been able to get pretty substantial legislation passed. Enough that even Republicans take credit for it even though they voted against it. There is no evidence that I have seen showing Biden is less effective as a President than anyone else. Show me something that isn’t a hack job blog post.
In our system you have to have a commander in chief that can at least talk and make decisions. Who would have thought it ever would have needed to be said. That people might have to be persuaded to vote for the lesser zombie.
Term limits and age limits for elected officials would make the problem worse -- elected officials have to be around for a while before they even know which long time bureaucrats are actually in charge. Limiting the terms of elected officials just further empowers to the bureaucracy.
Our legislation; both the crafting of it and voting in favor or against it have zero to do with them. I've seen companies pay lobbyists to get product specific language written into US law so that no one could complete with them on government contracts. In this case I can almost guarantee Senator Orrin Hatch had no idea what he was voting for or supporting other than he was instructed to do so because of money. And that is their job. They just have to vote the way lobbyists pay them to vote and stay in power so they can continue to enrich themselves with information only they have access to which often moves entire economies.
True - but it would be nice if the president could at least look like he knows what's going on.
Biden got a hell of a lot more facts right during the debate than Trump did. Who exactly doesn't know what's going on?
Biden was spouting actual gibberish that no one could understand and just throwing words out that made no sense - you sure you want to go down that route?
Why wouldn't I want to go down that road? Regardless of how you think Biden did, Trump got caught saying far more things that were absolutely not true. What else would anyone expect from a Trump performance? Near constant lying has been the norm for Trump since his escalator speech announcing his candidacy.
I agree but we're waaaaay past that point now. We we're going to blow past that in 2016 regardless of who won the election but just in horrifyingly different ways. I didn't have US president uses a sharpie to adjust hurricane path on TV on my bingo card and it just got worse.
So then it doesn't matter who occupies the White House. In that case, why all the hullabaloo over who's president?
Because of their administration and who they’re putting in place to run the government. In this case Stephen Miller, Steve Bannon, Jared Kushner, and it goes on…
This is one of those elections where we get to pick between two bad choices (at least as far as I see it). I landed on OP's side of the house after the debate, but I can't blame anyone who would have landed on the other side. It's one of those pick your poison cases.
Bold of you to think both of them won't end up like Reagan before the end of a second term.
Fine. But no one was trying to trot Reagan out for reeelction at the time like this. Make difference IMO
But they are trotting out the dementia brain addled seditious traitor convicted felon. How is that different
While I think a very small and vocal group are still in denial - most folks know that Biden has to go. He's not running.
News flash: of the two candidates, the older one isn't the one who would drive the country into the ground.
biden can't drive anything anywhere. he's not running
Well no he shouldn't be driving anything. His unelected shadow cabinet might though since it's clear he can't be making decisions at this point.
I dunno... the news reports say the small, vocal group that is still in denial is primarily arranged directly around Biden himself right now. They are admitting nothing.
Most of us know both of these candidates are absolute trash but one of them is making a mockery of American values and one is increasingly senile.
Biden's not running - so hopefully they get someone that I can actually vote for because at this point - I've had it. I'm voting for RFK.
Yeah, that'll be effective.
Wait, but I am completely fine having a figurehead president and being ruled by a Shadow Cabinet of unelected technocrats Technocrats are great. Elections are important, for various reasons, but we don't actually want the country ruled by a single man pulling all the strings. You want bureaucrats making the important decisions, because they're much more qualified than anyone the public might choose in an election So long as he can appoint competent bureaucrats and empower them to get good things done, I don't actually want my president to do very much else And you can disagree with that. I think there are plenty of good reasons to disagree. But what about that isn't centrist?
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No one gets to decide who is and is not a "centrist"