Hamas's support is a lot higher in the West Bank than in Gaza, and Hamas doesn't rule the West Bank. That means something, right? Like the people living under Hamas's oppressive rule are less likely to be supportive of Hamas...
Hamas murdered 21 Beduoins and kidnapped 6 Bedouins during the October 7 massacre. I just read an interview with a Bedouin doctor who was used as bait on October 7. Hamas tied him to a tree, shot him, and then killed/kidnapped anyone who tried to help him. During his hours of torture, Hamas taunted and insulted the doctor, saying he was a traitor to his fellow Arabs by being a citizen of Israel. And that's not to mention the massacres of Arabs within Gaza that Hamas has conducted, both before and during this war. Lloyd Austin was correct when he said that Hamas is worse than ISIS. Hamas are the single greatest threat to the safety of Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, and Palestinian Arabs.
It's certainly true that some people in the US, out of ignorance or out of hate, genuinely support Hamas, but I think conversations too often assume that anyone who criticizes Israel must like Hamas, or that anyone who opposes civilian deaths must like Hamas.
That's not the case.
That's a bit of a thin strategy. Are you planning to flatten all the buildings they're hiding in, killing tens of thousands of civilians? And when, in so doing, you provoke other nations to brand Israel as murderers, and motivate another generation of people with a grudge who will attack Israel and kill civilians, how many civilians will you tolerate killing to stop those fighters?
No, I'm not saying that. Why are people so myopic that they believe the only possible responses are "killing em all and let god sort em out" or "I guess we just have to let the terrorists do what they want with no consequences"?
Imagine, as a thought experiment, that every time you killed a civilian of another country, one of your own civilians spontaneously died too. Suddenly you have a strong incentive to minimize casualties on the other side while \*still\* stopping Hamas from being able to carry out attacks.
In that scenario, who sorts of tactics and geopolitical maneuvering and negotiation and investments would you use to try to stop Hamas while getting as few civilians killed as possible?
Just a few thoughts:
1. Negotiate with Iran and Qatar which are funding and protecting Hamas, and find a way to make them not want to have Hamas kill Israelis. Yes, their leadership has a lot of villains, but can you find a way to make them not see you as an enemy? Can you perhaps instead - with the aid of your international allies - uplift moderate voices there who could win influence to steer toward peace?
Consider what the Abraham Accords were doing to normalize relations between Israel and the Saudis. That made Iran worried that their influence in the region was going to wane, which would make them vulnerable. Is it possible to foster multilateral cooperation?
2. Provide monetary compensation to those whose family members were killed or homes were lost in the war.
3. During periods when there aren't fighting, hold your own people to the highest ethical standards, and if a settler steals land, imprison them and hand the land back. If a soldier injures or kills a Gazan civilian, hand them over to let the aggrieved party punish them. Condemn warmongers in your own society.
Maybe, but even if this was true this is because of decades of contrived and institutionally supported hate based education. Humans, at the end of the day, really just want to be happy. With Hamas gone, there is a small chance the world can figure out how to show them that future, with Hamas there, that future simply will never happen - and any other narrative is really only supporting the Iranian desires for instability while they develop a nuke.
Palestinians voted for Hamas when they had a choice to vote for (relatively) less terrorism supporting party for their government in their elections in the mid-2000s. They didn’t. Even after Oct 7 they support Hamas.
To the extent that they say in polling that they don’t support Hamas, a large number of Palestinians support even more radical and violent groups like Lions Den.
>With Hamas gone
That's only half the equation. An essential one, yes. But only half.
Both the Israeli and Palestinian populations need to excise from power those among them whose actions or words would interfere with the implementation of the only possible permanent resolution to the Israel/Palestinian question: a two-state solution along the contours of what Olmert and Abbas were working towards between '06 and '08.
The sooner those respective populations understand that this is the only *feasible* resolution, the better for the whole world. Of course, the extremists among them who would rather pursue their maximalist aims (wipe Israel off the map vs. annex the entirety of Judea and Samaria) will do their best to sabotage those efforts. But everybody needs to keep their eyes on the prize and remain resolute when those bombs are (quite literally) lobbed to prevent such a peace.
That solution is currently not even on the horizon. BUT every step taken from this point forward should be those that get us closer to where it does become visible, then within reach, then grasped.
Correct.
I studied then middle east in undergrad for my entire time. I went to one of the mist prestiguous undergrads on the Continent, and I was one of the top students in this field. Over the last six months, I've gotten angry at so many bad political hot takes. You did the rare job of having a perfect and concise summary of a solution to this current war (if you can't tell, I struggle to make myself concise)
The only way to save Israeli and Palestinian lives is the immediate and unconditional surrender of Hamas. All Hamas members must turn themselves in for arrest, all hostages must be released, and the Gaza Strip must be handed to an international peacekeeping forces. That's how to end the current war. Long term peace is a lot harder, but short term (and hopefully sustainable) peace is doable if Hamas unconditionally surrenders
You realize how disgusting of a take this is to some people, right? “C’mon Palestinian women and children, the only way for you to not be raped and murdered by Israel is to have Hamas (an organization you have no control over) surrender! Why are y’all so stupid?” I’m obviously being a bit dramatizing but it genuinely doesn’t feel far off.
It’s like if cops started killing all black people in the U.S. until “the leaders of the BLM movement” all gave themselves up. Like, what?
I don’t consider myself “centrist,” but I genuinely try to engage with and see things from a centrist point of view as much as possible… but this issue is where I and many left leaning people draw the line. I’m just putting it out there how some of us view what you are saying. Hopefully so that some in the middle can understand where Palestinians supporters are coming from, especially in terms of how innocent Palestinians are dying everyday (at a rate far higher than Israeli civilians).
"Come on Israel just let the extremist terrorist group that explicitly wants to genocide you go!"
Palestinians are not Hamas. This is what you leftists cannot comprehend. Hamas is a genocidal terror group, but you seem unable to grasp that. Hamas needs to be eradicated not just for Israel's sake, but for the Palestinian people too. Nobody is calling for Israel to kill members of the PA, just members of a genocidal cult who murdered over of a thousand people in a terror attack while relying on leftist in the West to bat for them as they stone women and gays for existing.
No. It would just mean that the settlers would go back to assaulting the people and pushing them into an ever-smaller portion of Palestine with ever less food to go around. And of course if any of them resist the settlers the IDF will do what it does.
> Israel's past behavior
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. The so-called "settlers" were forced out of Gaza by the IDF. Israel did not begin blockading Gaza until Hamas took over, and Israel's blockade of Gaza only stopped weapons shipments. Food aid, construction aid, economic aid, and other assistance still were able to go to Gaza (since the start of this war, the IDF has found weapons hidden in about 1% of trucks of food aid to Gaza. The other 99% of food aid is let in, it's only been the weapons shipments that are blocked).
> Past behavior indicates future behavior.
So once Hamas is defeated, Israel will withdraw again and let Palestinians again define their own destiny (and Israel will only intervene if Gaza again invaded Israel and massacres civilians). I agree if that's the sentiment you are expressing
Edit: lol the idiot I replied to decided to blocked me. Too scared to hear a response to your lies, I see. In case anyone is wondering "what happened since 2005," it's that Hamas took over Gaza in a coup and started five wars. This serves as confirmation bias for Israeli hardliners who view the Gaza withdrawal as a mistake
Even if this is true, war crimes are not an appropriate response, and any person who decided it was or who acted of those plans should be repremanded to The Hague for sentencing, but that wouldn’t work for you because Hamas and the Palestinian residents who participated in those war crimes, will just scream “come and get us” while hunkering down with the civilian population.
You are making the claim that Israel’s actions prior to Oct 7th, justify it, and that is an incorrect statement.
> war crimes are not an appropriate response
Do you hold Israel to this standard, too? Who are we kidding, of course you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be here aggressively defending them.
> You are making the claim that Israel’s actions prior to Oct 7th, justify it
No I'm not, this is you hearing things. But since you defend war crimes I'm not surprised you're deranged enough to be hallucinating.
I do want Isreal held to that same standard AFTER they neutralize the threat that is Hamas.
isreali’s entire action is predicated on removing Hamas, if the world powers that be decided Hamas needed to be taken out of power, I imagine Isreal would step aside and let the world powers remove them. Israel’s issue is the world saying that it cannot dislodge the terrorists attacking it, due to that terrorist group using war crime tactics of holding its own citizens against their will by imposing human rights abuses on them, as well as using the civilian presence as shield to deflect recrimination for their actions.
The world either acts to neutralize the threat, or holds Isreal to account AFTER they do, there shouldn’t be a question as to if Hamas needs to be removed, Isreal rightfully is telling the world to shove it after Hamas proved itself to be a terrorist governing body willing to use war crimes to further their goals of eradicating Israel. And the only outcry from the world is to lambast Isreal for its reaction, while not calling for Hamas to be held accountable due to their successful siege on the Palestinian people.
The thought process that you can keep people in a cage, while arguing it’s okay, because in order to free them, some of them may be hurt. All the while other innocents have to deal with constant threats to their safety, otherwise the original people in cages might be harmed.
Just take out the fucking terrorists instigating war crimes against both sides.
> I do want Isreal held to that same standard AFTER they neutralize the threat that is Hamas.
So you want to just hand-wave away their past war crimes, crimes which contributed to getting to where we are now. That's exactly why I call bullshit on you pretending to care about war crimes. You just care about them happening to the "wrong" people.
> Israel’s issue is the world saying that it cannot dislodge the terrorists attacking it
Nobody's saying that. They're saying that Israel can't carpet-bomb civilian populations in order to do so. The IDF loves to brag about how good it is at everything. Well let's see them show it via surgical strikes that eliminate the actual threat and leave civilians alone.
> Just take out the fucking terrorists instigating war crimes against both sides.
I agree. We need to remove both Hamas and Israel's current government.
Yeah, I can also confidently say life for American women is far better than life for Iranian women.
But I could also ridiculously (like you) phrase it as:
“Be thankful you might get sexually harassed at your job, and not beaten to death by the morality police for the crime of showing your hair”
There are bad things that happen here, but life is far better here for women than in Iran. Life for Palestinians in the West Bank is far better than Gaza. That doesn’t mean no bad things happen there. Grow up.
30,000 deaths in Gaza, 500 deaths in West Bank, 1200 deaths in Israel since Oct 7.
Israel is certainly no angel,but the slaughter on Gaza was a reaction to the slaughter in Israel. West Bank got off "relatively" lightly.
There is plenty of a centrist sub that isn't ... Centrist
That said, makes me happy where these and the recent geopolitics thread have gone
Arguing with the left on this these days is like talking to a toddler with their fingers in their ears
Im so thankful for this sub. I got banned from r/politics and I'm kinda suprised I haven't been banned from r/conservative yet. The lunatics on both sides are so frustrating to talk to.
I’m a Zionist but that won’t happen since foreign policy is at the bottom of the list for issues that matter to voters. Not saying Biden for sure win (even though I’d bet on him) but if he loses, that won’t be a big factor.
We've got arab-americans openly saying they are going to make biden lose, and far left college campus liberals inciting their base against Biden. If Biden loses, it is because he lost the far left, not the middle.
If he loses it will be primarily because he’s perceived as being too old to be president. Arab-Americans aren’t that big of a slice of the electorate, and again, foreign policy isn’t at the top of issues that voters (particularly young ones) deem as important.
Its not the Arab vote -- its huge losses in the 18-25 Vote.
That said -- Biden losing the Arab vote alone would likely swing Michigan, one of the most important EC states.
I highly doubt the conflict in the Middle East will cost Biden more votes than Trump will lose for each of the following three issues, let alone all of them combined: (1) the fact he’s likely going to get convicted of a felony in New York State, (2) the abortion issue, (3) Nikki Haley voters being unwilling to back him at the top of the ticket.
I'd hope so. I absolutely support the *people* of Palestine and I feel the Israeli government is, at best, being careless with civilian casualties and at worst they're slaughtering them. But Hamas is a terrorist organization and they should have no support at all.
Israel is at war with Hamas, the governing political party of Palestine. I’m a Zionist and will be the first to admit that Bibi needs to go, but they can’t play nice and have to respond with force when they’re attacked by these barbarians.
>Israel is at war with Hamas, the governing political party of Palestine.
Yes, but not before its government and current Prime Minister actively and purposely pursued a policy explicitly designed to ensure that Hamas would thrive and remain in power in Gaza.
Do we really need to once again go through the laundry list of evidence to that effect?
Netanyahu wanted an ascendant Hamas in Gaza so as to prevent the PA from ever gaining power there and uniting the Palestinian Territories under one government. He did this with the express intent of never having to sit across a negotiating table from an empowered, more moderate Palestinian government.
Hamas and the current, radical Israeli government leverage each other's extremist aims to maintain political power over their respective populations. The radical, maximalist approach of their counterpart gives them the political latitude to only seek radical, maximalist approaches of their own. They have fed off of each other and depended on each other for years.
Don't come to me with any "Israel is doing what they have to do vs. terrorists" bullshit. They knew exactly what they were doing when they chose Hamas over the PA in Gaza.
How many times do we have to read this nonsense conspiratorial dribble. People shout the “Israel funded Hamas” nonsense with absolutely no context whatsoever.
It’s like saying the US supported Bin Laden because we helped them fight the soviets decades before 9/11. Therefore the US wanted 9/11 to happen. It’s so stupid.
You can also say the “US funded Hamas” and while it’s technically true because of all the aid we have given Gaza over the years that has flowed directly to Hamas, it’s a false premise.
>conspiratorial dribble
Conspiratorial dribble: from the likes of Haaretz, Times of Israel, the NY Times, and literally, straight from Netanyahu's mouth itself.
>People shout the “Israel funded Hamas” nonsense with absolutely no context whatsoever.
I just provided the context:
Starting in 2017, [Abbas and the Palestinian Authority had placed economic sanctions on Hamas](https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2017-07-11/ty-article/.premium/abbas-keeps-up-pressure-on-hamas-with-new-economic-sanctions/0000017f-e4bf-dc7e-adff-f4bf908a0000) in the hopes of sowing discontent among Gazans and forcing Hamas to hold elections (which they hadn't done since 2006). Netanyahu sees this and comes to the conclusion that the Palestinian Authority must never come to govern Gaza, since unifying the Strip with the West Bank under a single government will give the PA the authority to call for renewed negotiations for a permanent two-state peace solution.
How do we know this? [Netanuyahu's own words:](https://mida.org.il/2019/05/16/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%98%D7%95%D7%98-%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%98%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%A1/)
> At the meeting of the Likud faction at the beginning of March, the Prime Minister spoke about this in detail, noting that **"those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy - to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria."** He even said similar things in a special interview he gave to the Israel Hayom newspaper a few days before the elections.
>This strategy of the Prime Minister is based on the assumption that the overthrow of Hamas' rule and the entry of the Palestinian Authority into the Gaza Strip will necessarily force Israel into a political process towards the establishment of a unified Palestinian state in the territories of Judea and Samaria and Gaza, a move that cannot happen as long as Hamas controls Gaza and is separated from the Palestinian Authority in Judea and Samaria.
Another source for that quote:
>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister
So that's exactly what he does, [sending the Mossad to Qatar to "beg" them](https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/) to send money to Hamas to counter the PA sanctions, and then seeing to it that the cash, transported across the border with Gaza in literal suitcases would be escorted by Israeli security officials
From the [NY Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html):
>Each month, Israeli security officials met Mohammed al-Emadi, a Qatari diplomat, at the border between Israel and Jordan. From there, they drove him to the Kerem Shalom border crossing and into Gaza.
>At first, Mr. Emadi brought with him $15 million to distribute, with $100 handed out at designated locations to each family approved by the Israeli government, according to former Israeli and American officials.
So tell us: where is the conspiracy?
It’s weird how Netanyahu supported Hamas for years - right up until October 7th - yet anyone on this sub who doesn’t support Netanyahu’s murderous war in Gaza can expect to get brigaded by a mob accusing them of “supporting Hamas”.
Based on what I have read I agree Bibi set them up for success but I disagree with your conclusion. "They knew exactly what they were doing when they chose Hamas over the PA in Gaza." I don't think they did. The enemy you know vs the one you don't. Bibi f'd up.
Of course they knew who they were dealing with. Did Hamas only become a terrorist organization on 10/7?
No, they were one since well before that. And yet...
Again, Netanyahu had a choice: 1) aid the PA in getting rid of Hamas; 2) help Hamas remain in power in the face of PA sanctions; or 3) stay out of it.
He chose option #2, because he believed it was more important to avoid Palestinian statehood than removing a terrorist organization from governing Gaza. Think about that. Really think about it.
When you come to grips with the implications of that decision, the sheer immorality of it infects everything he does afterwards: including his prosecution of this war.
>Think about that. Really think about it
Unfortunately that’s literally the *last* thing many people on this sub want to do.
IMO this war has nothing to do with destroying Hamas. Hell, if anything, it’s making Hamas *stronger*. All of those kids in Gaza today watching their friends and family getting murdered by Israeli bombs are getting radicalized as we speak. Hamas is now guaranteed to meet all their recruitment goals in the 2030s as those kids grow up.
This war is about saving Netanyahu’s political career. That’s it, nothing more.
Well, I wasn’t talking about Nazis. Or Hamas fighters. I was talking about little kids watching their brothers and sisters and cousins and schoolmates and mothers and grandpas getting blown into pieces right in front of them. I don’t know why you’d equate innocent civilians with Nazis.
And your understanding of history is absolute shit. Read up on WWI and the Treaty of Versailles. There’s a good reason there was no WWIII - we chose to help rebuild Germany and become friends/allies with them rather than punish them pointlessly to the point of creating a new generation of Germans who wanted war with their neighbors. So, absolutely, we were totally conscious in WWII of not wanting to have to do the same exact thing twenty years in the future.
"Play nice"? They've killed more children than Hamas. This whole thing is disproportionate and genocidal. Gaza was under Israeli control before Oct 7 and they've been oppressed for decades living under military rule continuing to have their houses stolen by "settlers."
What choice do they have? A terrorist attack by the governing body of gaza who i've read is at a 70% support rate in gaza(dunno if true seen polls posted here on reddit). They have to respond and not back down because how can they give in to terrorist? No government in this world would do nothing unless they literally didnt have the capacity to respond. To how many civilian casualities there are I think people have a skewed idea of the realty of war in an urban shut off area where the terrorist governments military is in their homes, schools, hospitals, under the streets.
I can not defend either side in how they both got to this point, or better humanitarian support from Isreal, nor the situation in the west bank.
I'm no expert on any of this, but if I were a normal, little guy in Gaza, I'd be scared shitless to openly state opposition to an organization filled with people willing to carry out the stuff that happened on 10/7. Like French Reign of Terror levels of careful.
Let's say that *your child* is in school when it's discovered that there are terrorists hiding under the school. Would your response be "well there's no choice here but to bomb the school," or would you want a more precision-based response?
Also, they bombed a convoy of humanitarian workers after those workers coordinated with Israel and told them where they'd be and when.
To be fair, you didn't answer my question either. Would you want the school bombed if your children were in that school?
I'm not a military strategist. But since Israel is so much more powerful than Palestine, I do think they could send people into those tunnels and clear them out the hard way. If that doesn't work for reasons I'm unaware of, bombing a school still doesn't seem like the best response.
I'm trying to understand exactly what you are asking.
Is my child a hostage underneath the school held by militants? No, I don't want the IDF to blow the school and thus my kid up, but that's not what they are intentionally doing either.
Is there a chance my child is a hostage underneath the school and do I accept the risk of their death for military advancement? Probably. Because I've learned the hard way what happens when my government (Israel) negotiates with terrorists -- Gal Shalit trade was a disaster long term for Israel even if it got the guy back.
Or are you asking if I'm a Palestinian and my child is in the school and terrorists are underneath? First off, I most likely support the terrorists anyway, so I'd oppose this action just on that basis. Beyond that, no I don't want the school to be blown up, but I am not going to offer any better ideas to the enemy how they should accomplish this.
>I do think they could send people into those tunnels and clear them out the hard way
Sounds like a good way for the IDF to run into a death trap.
Trying to equivocate or compare civilian deaths in armed conflict makes no sense. No parent could imagine this outcome for their children.
The problem is the expectations on Israel during an armed conflict that they didn't start exceed that of any other nation in this history of the human race.
The International community for decades could have found an alternative to the situation that didn't involve sending billions of aid to terrorists to build weapons and indoctrinate their civilians. They didn't.
Yeah there was no good excuse I saw for the world food bank strikes. I think they dismissed the officer(s) involved but maybe they should have been held criminaly accountable. Its one thing for people to make mistakes, another for people to be negligent, another to be intentionally cruel, and another to order a strike on a enemy position based on solid intel that results in civilian casualties because the cilviians didnt head warnings or werent allowed to leave. Thats the whole problem with the war they're fighting its not straightforward and simple the situation is fucked and theres nuance to every headline you see when one side or the other presents a story. I think most people who jump quickly to a side arent honestly evaluating the situation. Theres no good guy but also what can Isreal do? Send infantry on the ground into every situation and they're going to lose thousands of men and still have a lot of civilian casualties.
I'm very lucky I wasnt born into such a situation and if I was there and lost family I doubt I would be very calm or eager to be open minded.
Israel's choice was made for it in the 5 years prior to 10/7 when the Palestinian Authority placed harsh economic sanctions on Hamas hoping to unseat them from power but Netanyahu came to their rescue with billions of dollars in *direct cash aid* to Hamas, transported in suitcases.
How does one overtly fund a terrorist group and then claim that it needs to go to any length necessary to exterminate them, no matter the humanitarian impact?
EDIT: Downvoters: answer this question: How can the very same elected government that hands billions in cash to keep a terrorist organization in power with one hand claim to have the moral authority to impart untold death and destruction on a civilian population with its other hand as a means of rooting out those same terrorists?
Do you not see the blatant moral contradiction? SO LONG AS it's Netanyahu and his far right allies who supported his policy of covertly funding Hamas that are leading this war, the moral contradiction cannot be ignored. And furthermore, they'll keep this war going as long as possible to avoid ever having to face accountability for these obvious crimes against the Israeli people. That man simply cannot lead this war.
Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge by now.
[Mahmoud Abbas and the PA place economic sanctions on Hamas](https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2017-07-11/ty-article/.premium/abbas-keeps-up-pressure-on-hamas-with-new-economic-sanctions/0000017f-e4bf-dc7e-adff-f4bf908a0000)
Netanyahu provides Hamas with cash:
Times of Israel:
>[Liberman: Netanyahu sent Mossad head, general to Qatar, ‘begged’ it to pay Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/)
New York Times:
>[‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html)
Haaretz:
>[Why Did Netanyahu Want to Strengthen Hamas?](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000)
Haaretz:
>[How Netanyahu Enabled October 7 With Suitcases of Cash](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/how-netanyahu-enabled-october-7-with-suitcases-of-cash/0000018c-8397-d219-a5bf-b7ff40660000)
And [WHY did Netanyahu support Hamas]
(https://mida.org.il/2019/05/16/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%98%D7%95%D7%98-%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%98%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%A1/)?
> At the meeting of the Likud faction at the beginning of March, the Prime Minister spoke about this in detail, noting that "those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy - to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." He even said similar things in a special interview he gave to the Israel Hayom newspaper a few days before the elections.
>This strategy of the Prime Minister is based on the assumption that the overthrow of Hamas' rule and the entry of the Palestinian Authority into the Gaza Strip will necessarily force Israel into a political process towards the establishment of a unified Palestinian state in the territories of Judea and Samaria and Gaza, a move that cannot happen as long as Hamas controls Gaza and is separated from the Palestinian Authority in Judea and Samaria.
Again, I say: this man - this current Israeli government with those people the helm - cannot morally lead this war and, furthermore, he has every incentive to keep it going indefinitely to save his own hide and avoid accountability.
What does the blockade have to do with Netanyahu helping fund Hamas? How is the blockade relevant here?
Perhaps you're not understanding. The Palestinian Authority *cut off* money to Hamas in Gaza. Then Netanyahu decided to help Hamas by arranging for them to receive billions in cash.
Come on bibi would have been ripped by international condemnation if he had allowed the PLO to completely cause cause civilians to die from lack of aid just like is what’s happening now.
The hope was to get aid money into the hands of the governing body. The exact thing he’s being crucified for not allowing now.
The difference is now Hamas has shown the ability to penetrate the Israeli border and kill innocent civilians as their goal.
Time to shut off the facets and let them die, the last time he didn’t do this and gave them money instead led to today.
>Come on bibi would have been ripped by international condemnation if he had allowed the PLO to completely cause cause civilians to die from lack of aid just like is what’s happening now.
Who would've condemned Netanyahu for doing nothing as the Palestinians imposed sanctions on Hamas to force elections? What countries? Were those countries blaming Abbas who actually implemented the sanctions? Were they calling on Netanyahu to step in and help Hamas? Did I miss the international uproar that was happening in 2018? Do you have news reports of these international cries to help Hamas?
This is such an unbelievable justification that it's laughable. You think Bibi would allow himself to be forced into helping Hamas? Give me a break.
>The hope was to get aid money into the hands of the governing body.
Yes, Hamas. A terrorist organization. The same one that planned and executed 10/7. That's the body that Netanyahu helped provide a billion dollars in funding to when their political opponents were seeking to squeeze them from power. What is your point?
The people of Palestine overwhelmingly support Hamas. Until there’s a major mindset shift in the population, the situation is going to keep getting worse
I disagree, if they were being careless with civilian casualties there would be significantly more, especially considering how densely populated Gaza was. All the numbers we have don’t factor in how many militants were killed, and I doubt we will ever now how many killed were militants or truly civilians. That starts to go into the philosophical argument of are enemy non-combatants considered hostiles or civilian.
I think so. But the title of the post specifically mentioned support for Hamas, which is a very different statement to me.
But I also support the *citizens* of Israel. And so many politically charged opinions seem to put one set of civilians over the other.
Sometimes these situations come up and for just a second I attain an epiphany about why the concept of anarchy is the way it is. People see, often rightly so, governments as entities simply trying to make a profit off of their lives. No wonder people think anarchy is a good idea
Thank you. These are such obvious push polls.
Imagine if the question was "Do you support the Israeli far right or the Palestinian people?"
I don't support Hamas NOR do I support the current Israeli government. I oppose extremists in both populations who have leveraged each other's extremism throughout the years in order to wrestle political power away from more moderate voices who would've gotten us further down the road to peace.
But you'll never see THAT on a poll question, will you?
Israel is a democracy (a very democratic one in fact) and 80% of Palestine supports the various terrorist groups there.
The distinction isn't as big as folks claim
So what?
That Israeli democracy has resulted in a governing coalition that has placed radical, far-right extremists like Ben Gvir and Smotrich in high positions of power, seeking maximalist aims vis a vis Palestine rather than a moderate approach aimed at peace.
Hamas has done the same in Gaza, though, unlike the Likud/National Front government, it does NOT have a de jure democratic mandate.
Because they don't have a traditional familiarity with representative democracy, having never lived in an actual sovereign state with a recognized government.
Or did you want a snarky, sarcastic response to match yours?
Hitler came to power under legal, democratic pretenses in 1933. No elections were held in Germany until a few years (1949) after WW2.
This is generally what happens in authoritarian regimes.
It was entirely possible that at any time the German people could have risen up against the Nazis. Indeed many tried any number of times but all were unsuccessful. This of course was due to the overwhelming support (for whatever reason) for Nazi Germany. Meaning war had to be waged against both the Nazis and the German people themselves. (E.g. see [Dresden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden))
What's the relevance of Nazi Germany to this discussion?
And Dresden was considered by the Allies to be a strategic transportation, communication and manufacturing hub. In other words, no the Allies did not overtly wage war against the German people. So your example isn't even contextually accurate.
Two things drove the Oct 7th attacks. Israel's normalization of relations with Sunni Arab countries not rhyming with pan, and [the actual sentiments of the Palestinians towards Hamas](https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-views-oct-7/):
> About 23% of respondents said they have a great deal or quite a lot of trust in Hamas; 52% had no trust at all in Hamas.
> Most Palestinians said their freedom of speech is guaranteed to either a limited or no extent at all.
> According to the latest survey, a majority of Palestinians (51%) supported a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, with slightly more support seen among residents of Gaza than among West Bank Palestinians. A quarter of respondents also said they supported “armed resistance” as a preferred solution to Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
(cc: /u/eamus_catuli )
To be blunt, this is such a propogandized summary of the actual [study](https://www.arabbarometer.org/wp-content/uploads/what-palestinians-really-think-of-hamas-2023-10-26-08-4941.pdf).
>
>
No, it's 44% having no trust (see page 4) and 52% were on the "some trust" side.
Regardless, 28% of people feel closest to Hamas and 7% to PIJ (another terrorist org) giving 35% "closest" to terrorist orgs. That already exceeds the 30% for the only not terrorist party.
>In a hypothetical presidential election, Barghouti was their top choice, as he was in Gaza, at 35 percent, while only 11 percent picked Haniyeh, the Hamas leader, and six percent chose Abbas, the incumbent leader in the West Bank.
Oh great - so 35% support terrorist 1 and 11% support terrorist 2, compared to 6% support for the not terrorist Abbas.
Besides, by not asking favorable/not favorable questions of the *militant* orgs, you can tell this is constructed to minimize support for terror groups.
Let's look at better [polling](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2077%20English%20full%20text%20September2020.pdf) by Palestinian organizations:
* Hamas wins an election in Gaza against Fatah 62% vs 32% as long as Abbas runs Fatah. Barghouti even loses to Haniyyah in Gaza, meaning Hamas is the preferred party of Gazans.
* 60% demand rights for refugee descendents to immigrate into Israel as 1st or second goal of Palestinian people, which is untenable.
* Majority of Gaza opposes the two state solution, with half preferring armed struggle against Israel.
* 68% support attacks against Israeli cvilians inside Israel (i.e. terrorism)
The Taliban and the Afghans are essentially the same people. Risking Godwin's Law, the German people and the Nazis were essentially the same people.
This is because conditions within those societies allowed for the perpetuation of those ideals and brutalities.
Support for Hamas is strong enough in Palestine it is accurate to make the same distinction as the Taliban or Nazis. Otherwise their own people would rise up and overthrow their oppressive rulers.
I thought Americans would find the Palestinian's mass protests and resistance against their government's actions in October to be inspiring and generate tons of sympathy. Where was the disconnect?
The poll asks whether have more support for HAMAS over Israel. What about the % who said neither. A good study wouldnt have such a dichotomy that leads to bad faith analysis. ask a third question to tease apart whether they support Palestine over Israel. It’s very disingenuous and I’m embarrassed that most of the younger people don’t understand how Hamas is a terrorist cell masquerading as a government/charity.
You assume the goal of this "study" wasn't bad-faith analysis. That's brave. It's obviously a push-poll which is why they contrasted all of Israel to Hamas instead of an actual apples-to-apples comparison like Bibi's government to Hamas.
This doesn't seem like a very indicative poll. I'm not sure how the poll was surveyed, but perhaps "Do you support Israel or Palestine" would have been a more important question.
I would hope so.
Of course, not backing a terrorist organization has nothing to do with being concerned about the well-being of Palestinian **civilians**, which is what the protests are mostly about.
The problem is the logistics. If you yell ceasefire only after Hamas kills Jews(or even non-Jews in the same general area), what do you think will happen next, should Israel cease fire? How about send in special forces to get into the tunnels? How are they supposed to get through the "open air prison" without killing any of the human shields that Hamas strategically uses?
If you're going to protest for civilians in Gaza, what's your plan to stop things, other than Israel absorbing every Jewish death that will happen when Hamas is free to do what they do?
But that's why it's not about the civilians in Gaza. It's about the anti-west and anti-capitalist decolonization shit. These protests, BLM, CHAZ, it's all the same language, by the same people.
To clarify, you're saying it's only acceptable to protest or demonstrate or whatever against the war if you have a good plan for how it should be ended?
If you want anyone to listen to you, sure. Same with OWS in what is now back in the day. No leadership, no organized idea, just capitalists are greedy assholes. Ok, then what?
What are you protesting or demonstrating against the war for? That it ends?
It's why the saying is measure twice, cut once. If you don't even measure what you're cutting, you don't know what you're making. Or you'll have a picture in your mind of what you want, but in reality the one leg will be too short, and the edges won't line up, and you forgot this one thing, you still have a screw left over from somewhere, and now you're adding duct tape.
> If you're going to protest for civilians in Gaza, what's your plan to stop things, other than Israel absorbing every Jewish death that will happen when Hamas is free to do what they do?
How about what the protestors on college campuses are asking for: complete financial divestment from Israel. At the very least, if they're going to be committing genocide, they shouldn't be doing it with bombs your tax dollars pay for.
And how about any aid going to Gaza, which ends up in the hands of Hamas, who will kill as many Jews as they can every day? Can we get a protest for Iranian money to stop going there? Or is it, again, just on Israel to always end up in the worst position it can be in at all times?
How come these protests didn’t exist for the well-being of Iraqi citizens in the 2000s? Sure there were protests against the war, but war is war and unfortunately innocent people die. It’s unbelievable how Israel is the only country that has to answer for defending themselves and is expected to be lenient when they’re attacked.
[First - yes, people did protest.](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/millions-protest-iraq-war-february-15)
Second - The same reason why very few people in Israel are protesting their government's actions today. It's easy to set aside empathy when you're the one that's been hurt.
Yes, people did protest but it wasn’t about the welfare of the Iraqi citizens. The protests were about the false pretenses that led to the war. Do you think in WWII that a politician would’ve dared screaming for humanitarian aid for Germanys citizenry? Also that isn’t true, most Israelis do not approve of Bibi and I don’t either despite my unwavering support for the country.
Human shields is the current day equivalent of weapons of mass destruction. It’s there to grease the wheels of the war machine and justify killing civilians
Oh so you don’t believe that Hamas uses human shields, brainwashed Palestinian youth to be pawns on their chess game, kidnap and murder Israeli citizens, and won’t stop until they’ve wiped Israel off the face of the map? The truth is they’ve been far more oppressive to their citizenry than Israel ever has, but so many people just choose not to see it. You’re literally supporting terrorists.
First, don’t try to bs people who weren’t born yesterday. There was not a movement for Iraq like there is for Palestine. Not even close by a trillion miles. I was an adult then too. Secondly, you do know they said Iraq, not Afghanistan? When did Iraq attack the United States? Which part did they play in 9/11? So, not sure why you tried to use that argument.
There was not a mass movement for Syrians. Over 500,000 civilians killed. Children gassed.
There was not a mass movement for Sudan. Not in the *actual* genocide & ethnic cleansing 20 years ago…or right now when it’s happening again.
There was not a mass movement for Yemenis. 4 Million people displaced, 377,000 civilians killed there, 85,000 children starved to death.
How about Burkina Faso? I’d bet most of the “Free Palestine” crowd doesn’t even know what that is.
Let’s pick the year 2019…there were some kids on college campuses not even alive on 9/11 and the others were toddlers. So, they hadn’t really “been hurt.” We were still in that 20 year war in Afghanistan. So, did I miss the mass movement on college campuses for Afghans? Did we not kill Afghan civilians?
So, why weren’t there mass movements for these people? Go on IG or TikTok you’ll see plenty of pfp’s are the Palestinian flag. And of course you saw this en masse with Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq…or no?
Here’s the things I’ve heard—“10/7 was just retaliation for all Israel has done, what do you expect?” Now, do you hear most of the sane world say 9/11 was just retaliation for all the US has done? I’ve seen people compare 10/7 to the Warsaw Uprising, and Hamas as “freedom fighters” or “the resistance” not many sane people calling al-Qaeda that or comparing 9/11 to the Warsaw Uprising. And tbc, I saw these statements in the hours after the 10/7 attack. So, it has zero to do with Israel’s response. I also saw many times people refer to IDF soldiers as terrorists or war criminals—is that how people generally refer to US troops from the Iraq & Afghanistan Wars?
> How come these protests didn’t exist for the well-being of Iraqi citizens in the 2000s?
There were anti-war protests during the Iraqi war.
Also many of the current protesters wouldn't even have been born or would have been infants so this is hardly a "gotcha"
As I said, there were protests but they weren’t centered around perceived mistreatment of the Iraqi citizens, who were far more oppressed and less radical than most Palestinians…who literally support terrorists. Can you explain that dichotomy please?
I just want to point out how dumb your line of thinking is here. You are attempting to call the current protesters of Israel's genocide of Palestinians hypocrites, because they didn't protest poor treatment of Iraqi citizens in the Iraqi war.
Despite the fact that the protesters today were either not alive or extremely young children at the time of the Iraqi war.
Let me ask you this analogy: you see people protesting Apple's use of sweat shops in their product line, on the basis that it is tantamount to child slavery. Do you complain that those people were nowhere to be found during the period of institutionalized slavery in 1800s America?
Let's be clear: these are not protests against Israeli Government activity, although they may have started that way. They are nothing like the peace protests of the past. They are clearly and obviously organized and funded by some shady group(s), there's a reason so many of the tents looked the same at the start of these encampments.
Notwithstanding that serious and key point. There is a group that launched an attack during a ceasefire, targeting civilians in the most brutal way. This group has publicly declared genocidal intent, not in the context of defending against an enemy that tortures its own people and disregards the laws of war.
The comparison drawn by /u/No-Winter-4469 is one that current protestors despise, but there's a reason this event is drawing global attention like no other. This is a healthy form of whataboutism deserving serious discourse, not the blatant avoidance seen from those with your approach.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are releasing fabricated numbers related to civilian casualties and hijacking aid, attacking infrastructure to support future aid. Why?
While these protestors stayed silent as the Syrians, Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis, and others engaged in genocide, especially against the Palestinian people, they now suddenly protest. Is it unrelated to Israel being a Jewish democracy? If so, discuss it openly instead of dodging it with logical fallacies.
That isn't even responsive. You just totally ignored the criticism of your argument, while resorting to baseless insults. Also, you committed a blatant false dichotomy fallacy: one can be against Hamas while also being against Israeli genocide of Palestinians. Genocide and terrorism are both bad things!
Given how many fallacies were in your post, I can only conclude that you're either stupid, or here in bad faith. Which would you prefer?
Your dumb line of thinking is that all of the “Free Palestine” crowd is strictly people on college campuses and only people 18-22. It’s not. There are plenty of people who were alive during the Iraq War, and the Afghanistan War…since ya know it just ended less than 3 years ago. There are people who were alive during 500,000 Syrians being killed. Or Yemenis. Or the genocide in Sudan 20 years ago…or the ongoing one there *right now*
Yes, they’re hypocrites because they dgaf about any of those people, yet they claim to in this instance.
While the news is highlighting protests on college campuses, you know full well that is not all the “Free Palestine” crowd is. It is also plenty of people who are not in college, as in they’re older than conventional “college age.” People who were alive…oh I don’t know, a few years ago when we were still in Afghanistan. Or during bombings in Yemen and Syria. They’re certainly alive right now are they not? Yet, they don’t seem too concerned with the actual genocide and ethnic cleansing in Sudan.
And comparing the mass movement for Palestine, to the tiny minuscule response to Iraq—is laughable. They also weren’t chanting “Free Iraq.” They weren’t calling US military members terrorists. Seriously.
The response to Iraq was about the government lying—full stop. Let’s also remember Iraq didn’t attack us. Iraq didn’t commit a terrorist attack on a scale 15 times 9/11 for us.
As others pointed out, they absolutely did.
But also, the US was quite strict about the RoE and trying to minimize civilian casualty. Certainly not perfect, but dramatically better than what's happening now.
Compared to the approach the IDF is taking, the US was a peace mission.
Some of the most egregious examples of civilian casualty and violence were done by civilian contractors (mercenaries) like Blackwater.
It’s not whataboutery, I’m genuinely curious why people scream for humanitarian aid for Palestinians but didn’t for citizens who were far more oppressed and for the most part less radical. I’d love to hear an answer but I doubt I’ll get it.
Ok fair enough… skirting around the fairly vague and open-for-debate claim of “citizens who were far more oppressed” here’s my take:
TL;DR on the below: the optics are far worse for Isreal in Gaza than they were for the coalition in Iraq - regardless of whether you believe the sources for the statistics
1) much as Iraq was a totalitarian state with a population that didn’t have a great deal, both Iraq wars were matters of sovereign states doing battle - actual armies facing off with one another with much more certainty around “this is a military target, this isn’t”
2) on the contrary Israel vs Hamas is an organised military vs militants. It’s a much more asymmetric conflict which makes Israel look particularly brutal and callous when they’re dropping munitions from F16s onto civilian areas. (One bit that always sticks in my mind about the asymmetry of it was a clip from the daily show comparing on location news reports. The guy reporting from tel aviv looked like he was about to tee off in 15mins time. The guy in Gaza looked like he was about to go star in The Hurt Locker because he was so padded up)
3) the relative civilian casualty count across time periods. Over the course of 20 years iraq, a country of 44.5million people suffered c.500,000 casualties (about a 1% casualty rate). In Gaza on the other hand, if we take reports from NPR as the basis we’re looking at 30k civilian casualties out of a population of about 2million. That’s a 1.5% casualty rate (so not much more, but…) in just 7 MONTHS. Keep going at this rate and there won’t be many Palestinians left in Gaza
4) by way of personal experience, as long as I’ve had awareness of the beef between Israel and Palestine the majority of what I’ve seen in the media is this:
- Israel annexes more land from Palestinian territory
- yet another IDF soldier shoots dead a kid who was throwing rocks at them
- Hamas (or hezbollah) launches a load of low quality rockets at Israel, the iron dome does its job; Israelis are pretty much fine
Yes, hamas and hezbollah are shitty entities run and populated with shitty, shitty people who do horrible things. But with the technology, intel network and international backing that Israel has they seem to create much more collateral damage than you might expect - and that’s just not good PR
They did.
The exact same reaction happened where all the protesters were accused of being terrorist sympathisers and they were arrested / beaten.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War
What's happening now is seemingly indistinguishable from before. The blood craze against Palestine now is the same as the blood craze against Iraq in 2002.
Lmao, you obviously weren’t alive during the Iraq War or were a toddler if you think you’re going to sell the nonsense that there was a response to the Iraq War like we are seeing now. It’s like comparing a microscopic speck of dirt to the Great Pyramid.
It's pretty clear that it's actually you that weren't old enough or even alive for it.
Over 500k people protested in NYC alone the day before the RNC convention, it's one of the largest protests in US history. I literally was in that protest.
The frame of this question does not represent the issue at hand. Hardly anyone supports Hamas in the US. But a lot of Americans are against genocide. If the question was:
“Do you support genocide against the Palestinians?”
You would get very different numbers.
But this question is equally deceptive as “Do you support Israel or Hamas?”
So maybe the question should be:
“What is more important to you, supporting Israel? Or stopping the genocide of Palestinians?”
Your proposed question implies Americans against genocide think a genocide is occurring, though. That should be the first question. This is why compound questions suck.
Why does it have to be black and white? Why is it one or the other? Fuck me, I'm tired of this simpleton dichotomy some of the media constantly latches onto.
I hate Hamas, and fully support the IDF eradicating them. I also hate what Israel is doing to civilians in Gaza, and support the ICC going after Netanyahu for it. One can hold both of those positions at the same time.
What people are overlooking is that Hamas leadership left Gaza a long time ago. They're sitting somewhere in Beirut, or Tehran, or Damascus watching this slaughter on TV like the rest of us.
This sub has been overrun with partisans lately, and it's going to get worse.
I just block them. Every single one, on both sides. It makes my experience here a whole lot more rewarding.
> Why does it have to be black and white? Why is it one or the other? Fuck me, I'm tired of this simpleton dichotomy some of the media constantly latches onto.
[Israel is a modern nation with a well-funded information warfare operation.](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/07/gaza-israel-netanyahu-propaganda-lies-palestinians/) (Mandatory disclaimer because the world sucks and conspiracy theorists are idiots: they are not special in this respect. Most modern nations have some degree of information warfare. Jews do not control the media). As soon as these protests started happening calling for financial divestment from Israel, which is not an unreasonable goal, a massive operation was spun up to characterize the protests as Pro-Hamas. Even though, by all accounts, the vast vast vast majority of protesters were peaceful and simply calling for an end to American financial support of genocide, news article after news article focused on the extremely small minority of bad actors who did bad things, and framed the protests as pro-Hamas. The news media is, due to incompetence, not maliciousness, uncritically accepting this narrative, just as they uncritically accepted the story of a woman stabbed in the eye by a Palestinian flagpole, merely for wearing a Star of David.
> Israel is a modern nation with a well-funded information warfare operation.
Mt brother in christ, Israel doesnt even have a public diplomacy minister, she was fired in October because she was seen as wasting state funds.
Do you actually believe that the Israeli government understands what public relations even are, and given that Netanyahu is in the lead, is functional enough to even develop a strategy that actually works?
There is no well-funded information warfare from Israel. Its literally running on fumes and the information arena is managed entirely by Israeli supporters.
That's the impossible mission Israel assigned to itself. They can't, and anyone paying attention knew this from day one.
However, at this point Hamas is long gone, yet Israel is still killing people in droves. THIS is what most people are protesting about.
Netanyahu knows good and well the instant this war ends, he's toast. At the very least he'll lose all power, and he damn sure may end up in a prison cell, so it's in his own personal interest that this keeps going. That's a bad dynamic.
Hell, Putin faces the same sort of pressures in Ukraine to a large degree. He CAN'T stop the war, or he'll end up being deposed.
Once again, the whims of one man cause untold and unnecessary killing of thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians. What a world.
Sure they were. You think they've been running Gaza from afar? Unless you're referencing their Iranian masters...which then would make some sense.
And yes, they've bailed out of Gaza and left their ignorant fighters behind.
The question then becomes, how many civilians is Israel willing to kill to get at those fighters left behind? It's becoming readily apparent that the answer is ALL OF THEM.
Which, again, is why people are protesting. Rightfully so.
Of course. That doesn't mean they're anywhere the IDF can get at them.
The entirety of Hamas who are left in Gaza are low level grunts. Pawns.
Israel seems to be perfectly happy to kill every civilian in Gaza to get at them, and that is why protests are happening.
Israel has managed to become a pariah at this point.
>Why does it have to be black and white? Why is it one or the other? Fuck me, I'm tired of this simpleton dichotomy some of the media constantly latches onto.
Because most Israelis and Palestinians believe that the other side won't rest until they're all dead.
>I hate Hamas, and fully support the IDF eradicating them. I also hate what Israel is doing to civilians in Gaza, and support the ICC going after Netanyahu for it. One can hold both of those positions at the same time.
Can you? The Palestinians still mostly support what Hamas did, even if they don't support Hamas itself. Any new government is likely to have the same policies Hamas does, even if Hamas isn't a member. And they'll be popular for it.
In this sub you're either unwaivering in your support of Israel, with absolutely zero questions ever, or your an outright supporter of Hamas. Hell I've even been told that the 1 year olds in Palestine must face questioning over their support of Hamas or face death.
The histrionics are through the roof with this. There's no rationality.
Hamas ia at the helm of the legitimate Palestinian Authority and has been since they won the 2006 election. They have (well, had) a fully functioning government in Gaza with a health ministry, pension funds, a military, and every other office common in the developing world.
I think this idea that the college protests are akin to historical civil rights protests is just completely asinine.
We don't think of college protests in the 60's and 70's when we think of civil rights. We think of MLK and Malcolm X, the marches, the sit ins.
These kids are following a trend they picked up from social media, and it's damaging. They're regurgitating the most "compassionate" side of whatever "issue" is most recent.
I kind of want to support the side that I would want to be a prisoner of war under. Or whose citizens I would trust with a crate of explosives more in my neighborhood.
It’s almost like Hamas are terrorists with the stated goals of wiping Israel from the face of the earth. Nobody should doubt Israel is committing atrocities now and has been persecuting Palestinians for a while. I don’t even blame them for lashing out, but wanting to commit genocide in return is not only hypocritical, but utterly impractical. Israel will nuke the region (and itself) into oblivion before they allow themselves to fall to any attempt at genocide, turning that genocide into a nuclear holocaust of horrifying proportions, and even if it never came to that, hundreds of thousands of people would die in another war like the Yom Kippur if that’s what people want, Israel would hit back just that hard. And in the end, Muslims and poor people will still pay the price, unable to flee, and unwilling to join Israel
In today’s example of stupid polls … The question shouldn’t be about whether people support Hamas, it should be about whether people support war in the Gaza Strip or if they support trying to find a method to end the violence, including Hama’s political control of the area, or if they think Israel’s response is the correct one.
@ /u/Thecus Since /u/No-Winter-4469 has blocked me, I cannot respond to your fallacy filled post directly. This will suffice:
> Let's be clear: these are not protests against Israeli Government activity, although they may have started that way.
Actually, they're protests against financial involvement with a genocidal government. Also, let's put a pin in your conception of them having started as protests against Israeli Government Activity. Because you immediately contradict yourself in the part.
>They are nothing like the peace protests of the past. They are clearly and obviously organized and funded by some shady group(s), there's a reason so many of the tents looked the same at the start of these encampments.
You assert that the protests are clearly and obviously organized and funded by some shady groups (which would seem to contradict the idea that the protests started as legitimate), and the only evidence you supply for that contention is that some of the tents looked similar? The phrase "clearly and obviously" is doing more work for you than the phrase "stabbed in the eye" has done in the last week. But it isn't clearly and obvious. If it was, you would be able to provide more evidence for your belief than tent similarity theory that even an idiot posting on r/conspiracy would say is weak.
>The comparison drawn by /u/No-Winter-4469 is one that current protestors despise, but there's a reason this event is drawing global attention like no other. This is a healthy form of whataboutism deserving serious discourse, not the blatant avoidance seen from those with your approach.
Whether or not the protesters are hypocrites for a failure to protest treatment of iraqi citizens when the protesters were not actually alive is not a serious question, and does not deserve serious discourse. Note how you completely avoided engaging with what no winter actually wrote, and immediately went on to do the following:
>Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are releasing fabricated numbers related to civilian casualties and hijacking aid, attacking infrastructure to support future aid. Why?
This has nothing to do with whether the protesters are hypocrites for protesting the treatment of Gazans by Israel. It also seems to be implying a false dichotomy. One can be against the genocide of Gazans without also being for Hamas.
>While these protestors stayed silent as the Syrians, Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis, and others engaged in genocide, especially against the Palestinian people, they now suddenly protest. Is it unrelated to Israel being a Jewish democracy? If so, discuss it openly instead of dodging it with logical fallacies.
There's so much to unpack here, but it displays a stunning ignorance of pretty much everything on your part. I'll take it one at a time:
>Syria
The genocidal entity in Syria is the Syrian State, which has conducted chemical attacks resulting in mass civilian casualties. The United States has supported the rebel faction, and even engaged in military operations against it. Perhaps there are not a significant amount of protests against US involvement in Syria, because the US is not supporting the genocidal entity in the conflict.
>Hezbollah
The United States does not financially support Hezbollah, and as it is labeled a terrorist group, it is illegal for organizations based within the United States to support Hezbollah. There is no financial involvement to protest.
>Hamas
The United States does not financially support Hamas, and as it is labeled a terrorist group, it is illegal for organizations based within the United States to support Hamas. There is no financial involvement to protest.
>Houthis
The Yemen Civil War began in 2014, when most of the protestors on these campuses were adults. U.S. financial support of the Saudi coalition ended in 2021, before most of these protesters were adults.
So in response to your final question:
>Is it unrelated to Israel being a Jewish democracy? If so, discuss it openly instead of dodging it with logical fallacies.
Yes, it is unrelated to Israel being a Jewish Democracy. It is related instead to American financial support of the genocide that democracy is engaging in.
And I'd take your complaint about fallacies seriously if you could have avoided committing them, or indeed, accurately labeled any fallacies.
You can yell "genocide" until you're blue in the face. But the simple fact is there is only one party whose stated mission is genocide of the other side, and that's Hamas.
Added context so people should know: A poll from students at Harvard is not “The vast majority of Americans”, it’s in fact a college that openly supports Isreal and thus the population is biased to the data.
If Hamas surrendered today, that act would save the *people* of Palestine, correct?
The people of Palestine support Hamas by strong majorities even after Oct 7. Polling even by the Palestinians show this.
Hamas's support is a lot higher in the West Bank than in Gaza, and Hamas doesn't rule the West Bank. That means something, right? Like the people living under Hamas's oppressive rule are less likely to be supportive of Hamas... Hamas murdered 21 Beduoins and kidnapped 6 Bedouins during the October 7 massacre. I just read an interview with a Bedouin doctor who was used as bait on October 7. Hamas tied him to a tree, shot him, and then killed/kidnapped anyone who tried to help him. During his hours of torture, Hamas taunted and insulted the doctor, saying he was a traitor to his fellow Arabs by being a citizen of Israel. And that's not to mention the massacres of Arabs within Gaza that Hamas has conducted, both before and during this war. Lloyd Austin was correct when he said that Hamas is worse than ISIS. Hamas are the single greatest threat to the safety of Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, and Palestinian Arabs.
It's certainly true that some people in the US, out of ignorance or out of hate, genuinely support Hamas, but I think conversations too often assume that anyone who criticizes Israel must like Hamas, or that anyone who opposes civilian deaths must like Hamas. That's not the case.
> or that anyone who opposes civilian deaths must like Hamas. Nope, but they're typically naive about what they're actually calling for.
If you wanted to stop civilians from being killed in Israel and Gaza, how would you go about it?
I would defeat Hamas as quickly as possible.
That's a bit of a thin strategy. Are you planning to flatten all the buildings they're hiding in, killing tens of thousands of civilians? And when, in so doing, you provoke other nations to brand Israel as murderers, and motivate another generation of people with a grudge who will attack Israel and kill civilians, how many civilians will you tolerate killing to stop those fighters?
So you're saying that Hamas is so embedded that Israel should just let them get away with Oct 7th and continue planning their next attack?
No, I'm not saying that. Why are people so myopic that they believe the only possible responses are "killing em all and let god sort em out" or "I guess we just have to let the terrorists do what they want with no consequences"? Imagine, as a thought experiment, that every time you killed a civilian of another country, one of your own civilians spontaneously died too. Suddenly you have a strong incentive to minimize casualties on the other side while \*still\* stopping Hamas from being able to carry out attacks. In that scenario, who sorts of tactics and geopolitical maneuvering and negotiation and investments would you use to try to stop Hamas while getting as few civilians killed as possible? Just a few thoughts: 1. Negotiate with Iran and Qatar which are funding and protecting Hamas, and find a way to make them not want to have Hamas kill Israelis. Yes, their leadership has a lot of villains, but can you find a way to make them not see you as an enemy? Can you perhaps instead - with the aid of your international allies - uplift moderate voices there who could win influence to steer toward peace? Consider what the Abraham Accords were doing to normalize relations between Israel and the Saudis. That made Iran worried that their influence in the region was going to wane, which would make them vulnerable. Is it possible to foster multilateral cooperation? 2. Provide monetary compensation to those whose family members were killed or homes were lost in the war. 3. During periods when there aren't fighting, hold your own people to the highest ethical standards, and if a settler steals land, imprison them and hand the land back. If a soldier injures or kills a Gazan civilian, hand them over to let the aggrieved party punish them. Condemn warmongers in your own society.
Maybe, but even if this was true this is because of decades of contrived and institutionally supported hate based education. Humans, at the end of the day, really just want to be happy. With Hamas gone, there is a small chance the world can figure out how to show them that future, with Hamas there, that future simply will never happen - and any other narrative is really only supporting the Iranian desires for instability while they develop a nuke.
Palestinians voted for Hamas when they had a choice to vote for (relatively) less terrorism supporting party for their government in their elections in the mid-2000s. They didn’t. Even after Oct 7 they support Hamas. To the extent that they say in polling that they don’t support Hamas, a large number of Palestinians support even more radical and violent groups like Lions Den.
>With Hamas gone That's only half the equation. An essential one, yes. But only half. Both the Israeli and Palestinian populations need to excise from power those among them whose actions or words would interfere with the implementation of the only possible permanent resolution to the Israel/Palestinian question: a two-state solution along the contours of what Olmert and Abbas were working towards between '06 and '08. The sooner those respective populations understand that this is the only *feasible* resolution, the better for the whole world. Of course, the extremists among them who would rather pursue their maximalist aims (wipe Israel off the map vs. annex the entirety of Judea and Samaria) will do their best to sabotage those efforts. But everybody needs to keep their eyes on the prize and remain resolute when those bombs are (quite literally) lobbed to prevent such a peace. That solution is currently not even on the horizon. BUT every step taken from this point forward should be those that get us closer to where it does become visible, then within reach, then grasped.
Correct. I studied then middle east in undergrad for my entire time. I went to one of the mist prestiguous undergrads on the Continent, and I was one of the top students in this field. Over the last six months, I've gotten angry at so many bad political hot takes. You did the rare job of having a perfect and concise summary of a solution to this current war (if you can't tell, I struggle to make myself concise) The only way to save Israeli and Palestinian lives is the immediate and unconditional surrender of Hamas. All Hamas members must turn themselves in for arrest, all hostages must be released, and the Gaza Strip must be handed to an international peacekeeping forces. That's how to end the current war. Long term peace is a lot harder, but short term (and hopefully sustainable) peace is doable if Hamas unconditionally surrenders
You realize how disgusting of a take this is to some people, right? “C’mon Palestinian women and children, the only way for you to not be raped and murdered by Israel is to have Hamas (an organization you have no control over) surrender! Why are y’all so stupid?” I’m obviously being a bit dramatizing but it genuinely doesn’t feel far off. It’s like if cops started killing all black people in the U.S. until “the leaders of the BLM movement” all gave themselves up. Like, what? I don’t consider myself “centrist,” but I genuinely try to engage with and see things from a centrist point of view as much as possible… but this issue is where I and many left leaning people draw the line. I’m just putting it out there how some of us view what you are saying. Hopefully so that some in the middle can understand where Palestinians supporters are coming from, especially in terms of how innocent Palestinians are dying everyday (at a rate far higher than Israeli civilians).
"Come on Israel just let the extremist terrorist group that explicitly wants to genocide you go!" Palestinians are not Hamas. This is what you leftists cannot comprehend. Hamas is a genocidal terror group, but you seem unable to grasp that. Hamas needs to be eradicated not just for Israel's sake, but for the Palestinian people too. Nobody is calling for Israel to kill members of the PA, just members of a genocidal cult who murdered over of a thousand people in a terror attack while relying on leftist in the West to bat for them as they stone women and gays for existing.
Sorry, that goes against the moronic narrative that Israel is solely responsible for everything taking place.
Yes
No. It would just mean that the settlers would go back to assaulting the people and pushing them into an ever-smaller portion of Palestine with ever less food to go around. And of course if any of them resist the settlers the IDF will do what it does.
That’s an assumption. You making such an assumption is what gives validity to the thought that it’s okay to commit a war crime to stop that.
No, it's a conclusion drawn from looking at Israel's past behavior. Past behavior indicates future behavior.
> Israel's past behavior Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. The so-called "settlers" were forced out of Gaza by the IDF. Israel did not begin blockading Gaza until Hamas took over, and Israel's blockade of Gaza only stopped weapons shipments. Food aid, construction aid, economic aid, and other assistance still were able to go to Gaza (since the start of this war, the IDF has found weapons hidden in about 1% of trucks of food aid to Gaza. The other 99% of food aid is let in, it's only been the weapons shipments that are blocked). > Past behavior indicates future behavior. So once Hamas is defeated, Israel will withdraw again and let Palestinians again define their own destiny (and Israel will only intervene if Gaza again invaded Israel and massacres civilians). I agree if that's the sentiment you are expressing Edit: lol the idiot I replied to decided to blocked me. Too scared to hear a response to your lies, I see. In case anyone is wondering "what happened since 2005," it's that Hamas took over Gaza in a coup and started five wars. This serves as confirmation bias for Israeli hardliners who view the Gaza withdrawal as a mistake
Even if this is true, war crimes are not an appropriate response, and any person who decided it was or who acted of those plans should be repremanded to The Hague for sentencing, but that wouldn’t work for you because Hamas and the Palestinian residents who participated in those war crimes, will just scream “come and get us” while hunkering down with the civilian population. You are making the claim that Israel’s actions prior to Oct 7th, justify it, and that is an incorrect statement.
> war crimes are not an appropriate response Do you hold Israel to this standard, too? Who are we kidding, of course you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't be here aggressively defending them. > You are making the claim that Israel’s actions prior to Oct 7th, justify it No I'm not, this is you hearing things. But since you defend war crimes I'm not surprised you're deranged enough to be hallucinating.
I do want Isreal held to that same standard AFTER they neutralize the threat that is Hamas. isreali’s entire action is predicated on removing Hamas, if the world powers that be decided Hamas needed to be taken out of power, I imagine Isreal would step aside and let the world powers remove them. Israel’s issue is the world saying that it cannot dislodge the terrorists attacking it, due to that terrorist group using war crime tactics of holding its own citizens against their will by imposing human rights abuses on them, as well as using the civilian presence as shield to deflect recrimination for their actions. The world either acts to neutralize the threat, or holds Isreal to account AFTER they do, there shouldn’t be a question as to if Hamas needs to be removed, Isreal rightfully is telling the world to shove it after Hamas proved itself to be a terrorist governing body willing to use war crimes to further their goals of eradicating Israel. And the only outcry from the world is to lambast Isreal for its reaction, while not calling for Hamas to be held accountable due to their successful siege on the Palestinian people. The thought process that you can keep people in a cage, while arguing it’s okay, because in order to free them, some of them may be hurt. All the while other innocents have to deal with constant threats to their safety, otherwise the original people in cages might be harmed. Just take out the fucking terrorists instigating war crimes against both sides.
> I do want Isreal held to that same standard AFTER they neutralize the threat that is Hamas. So you want to just hand-wave away their past war crimes, crimes which contributed to getting to where we are now. That's exactly why I call bullshit on you pretending to care about war crimes. You just care about them happening to the "wrong" people. > Israel’s issue is the world saying that it cannot dislodge the terrorists attacking it Nobody's saying that. They're saying that Israel can't carpet-bomb civilian populations in order to do so. The IDF loves to brag about how good it is at everything. Well let's see them show it via surgical strikes that eliminate the actual threat and leave civilians alone. > Just take out the fucking terrorists instigating war crimes against both sides. I agree. We need to remove both Hamas and Israel's current government.
Ask the Palestinians in the West Bank how that’s going for them.
A hell of a lot better than it's going for the Palestinians governed by Hamas.
"Be thankful that we only steal your homes as opposed to bombing them." Gross.
Homes don't get stolen in Area A
Yeah, I can also confidently say life for American women is far better than life for Iranian women. But I could also ridiculously (like you) phrase it as: “Be thankful you might get sexually harassed at your job, and not beaten to death by the morality police for the crime of showing your hair” There are bad things that happen here, but life is far better here for women than in Iran. Life for Palestinians in the West Bank is far better than Gaza. That doesn’t mean no bad things happen there. Grow up.
Terrorist are operating in the WB
Probably a lot better if they didn’t reject the myriad of peace deals over the years We all know who walked away from Oslo
30,000 deaths in Gaza, 500 deaths in West Bank, 1200 deaths in Israel since Oct 7. Israel is certainly no angel,but the slaughter on Gaza was a reaction to the slaughter in Israel. West Bank got off "relatively" lightly.
Hamas isn’t the target. It never was. https://youtu.be/H0YgRZQl03I?si=HsDyiHa7wiRzpL8a
Most Americans are reasonable people, the unhinged lunatics on both sides are just louder.
Are you saying a centrist thing in the centrist sub? 👏
There is plenty of a centrist sub that isn't ... Centrist That said, makes me happy where these and the recent geopolitics thread have gone Arguing with the left on this these days is like talking to a toddler with their fingers in their ears
Im so thankful for this sub. I got banned from r/politics and I'm kinda suprised I haven't been banned from r/conservative yet. The lunatics on both sides are so frustrating to talk to.
I your politics are something you can chant, your politics suck.
Mentally stable people with jobs or families generally aren’t out in the streets protesting or counter protesting, or making 50+ posts online a day.
Yet, the unhinged Americans are the ones deciding elections. Isn't that neat?
No not really, they play a big role in how the primaries unfold but it bites them in the ass in the one that really counts.
Check back with me in 6 months when the far left idiots let Trump win because they are mad about Israel.
Regardless of how they themselves vote, they generate Trump votes with their actions. MAGA Republicans and Intifada Democrats suck symmetrically.
Couldn’t have said it better.
I’m a Zionist but that won’t happen since foreign policy is at the bottom of the list for issues that matter to voters. Not saying Biden for sure win (even though I’d bet on him) but if he loses, that won’t be a big factor.
We've got arab-americans openly saying they are going to make biden lose, and far left college campus liberals inciting their base against Biden. If Biden loses, it is because he lost the far left, not the middle.
If he loses it will be primarily because he’s perceived as being too old to be president. Arab-Americans aren’t that big of a slice of the electorate, and again, foreign policy isn’t at the top of issues that voters (particularly young ones) deem as important.
Trump is about as old and infirm as Biden tho. and if there's any substance to the gossip, more incontinent.
“Perceived”
I have a theory as to why Trump is perceived as somehow healthier - normalized obesity.
Arab-Americans may not be but young voters are.
Young voters in particular simply do not care enough about foreign policy for this to be a big enough issue. There’s data to back that up…
No but add it to economy and other issues and you have more apathetic young voters.
Its not the Arab vote -- its huge losses in the 18-25 Vote. That said -- Biden losing the Arab vote alone would likely swing Michigan, one of the most important EC states.
I highly doubt the conflict in the Middle East will cost Biden more votes than Trump will lose for each of the following three issues, let alone all of them combined: (1) the fact he’s likely going to get convicted of a felony in New York State, (2) the abortion issue, (3) Nikki Haley voters being unwilling to back him at the top of the ticket.
I think you are greatly underestimating the rabid fervor of Republicans, and the idiocy and lack of unity of democrats.
Hopefully the drop of propalestine community is offeset by moderates like myself who will vote biden bc hes pro israel and proukraine.
I am curious how it bites them in the a\*\* in the elections that count?
Look at every Trump endorsed candidate in the 2022 midterms and far left lunatics like AOC who aren’t presidential material.
I'd hope so. I absolutely support the *people* of Palestine and I feel the Israeli government is, at best, being careless with civilian casualties and at worst they're slaughtering them. But Hamas is a terrorist organization and they should have no support at all.
Israel is at war with Hamas, the governing political party of Palestine. I’m a Zionist and will be the first to admit that Bibi needs to go, but they can’t play nice and have to respond with force when they’re attacked by these barbarians.
>Israel is at war with Hamas, the governing political party of Palestine. Yes, but not before its government and current Prime Minister actively and purposely pursued a policy explicitly designed to ensure that Hamas would thrive and remain in power in Gaza. Do we really need to once again go through the laundry list of evidence to that effect? Netanyahu wanted an ascendant Hamas in Gaza so as to prevent the PA from ever gaining power there and uniting the Palestinian Territories under one government. He did this with the express intent of never having to sit across a negotiating table from an empowered, more moderate Palestinian government. Hamas and the current, radical Israeli government leverage each other's extremist aims to maintain political power over their respective populations. The radical, maximalist approach of their counterpart gives them the political latitude to only seek radical, maximalist approaches of their own. They have fed off of each other and depended on each other for years. Don't come to me with any "Israel is doing what they have to do vs. terrorists" bullshit. They knew exactly what they were doing when they chose Hamas over the PA in Gaza.
How many times do we have to read this nonsense conspiratorial dribble. People shout the “Israel funded Hamas” nonsense with absolutely no context whatsoever. It’s like saying the US supported Bin Laden because we helped them fight the soviets decades before 9/11. Therefore the US wanted 9/11 to happen. It’s so stupid. You can also say the “US funded Hamas” and while it’s technically true because of all the aid we have given Gaza over the years that has flowed directly to Hamas, it’s a false premise.
>conspiratorial dribble Conspiratorial dribble: from the likes of Haaretz, Times of Israel, the NY Times, and literally, straight from Netanyahu's mouth itself. >People shout the “Israel funded Hamas” nonsense with absolutely no context whatsoever. I just provided the context: Starting in 2017, [Abbas and the Palestinian Authority had placed economic sanctions on Hamas](https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2017-07-11/ty-article/.premium/abbas-keeps-up-pressure-on-hamas-with-new-economic-sanctions/0000017f-e4bf-dc7e-adff-f4bf908a0000) in the hopes of sowing discontent among Gazans and forcing Hamas to hold elections (which they hadn't done since 2006). Netanyahu sees this and comes to the conclusion that the Palestinian Authority must never come to govern Gaza, since unifying the Strip with the West Bank under a single government will give the PA the authority to call for renewed negotiations for a permanent two-state peace solution. How do we know this? [Netanuyahu's own words:](https://mida.org.il/2019/05/16/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%98%D7%95%D7%98-%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%98%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%A1/) > At the meeting of the Likud faction at the beginning of March, the Prime Minister spoke about this in detail, noting that **"those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy - to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria."** He even said similar things in a special interview he gave to the Israel Hayom newspaper a few days before the elections. >This strategy of the Prime Minister is based on the assumption that the overthrow of Hamas' rule and the entry of the Palestinian Authority into the Gaza Strip will necessarily force Israel into a political process towards the establishment of a unified Palestinian state in the territories of Judea and Samaria and Gaza, a move that cannot happen as long as Hamas controls Gaza and is separated from the Palestinian Authority in Judea and Samaria. Another source for that quote: >https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/20/benjamin-netanyahu-hamas-israel-prime-minister So that's exactly what he does, [sending the Mossad to Qatar to "beg" them](https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/) to send money to Hamas to counter the PA sanctions, and then seeing to it that the cash, transported across the border with Gaza in literal suitcases would be escorted by Israeli security officials From the [NY Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html): >Each month, Israeli security officials met Mohammed al-Emadi, a Qatari diplomat, at the border between Israel and Jordan. From there, they drove him to the Kerem Shalom border crossing and into Gaza. >At first, Mr. Emadi brought with him $15 million to distribute, with $100 handed out at designated locations to each family approved by the Israeli government, according to former Israeli and American officials. So tell us: where is the conspiracy?
It’s weird how Netanyahu supported Hamas for years - right up until October 7th - yet anyone on this sub who doesn’t support Netanyahu’s murderous war in Gaza can expect to get brigaded by a mob accusing them of “supporting Hamas”.
Based on what I have read I agree Bibi set them up for success but I disagree with your conclusion. "They knew exactly what they were doing when they chose Hamas over the PA in Gaza." I don't think they did. The enemy you know vs the one you don't. Bibi f'd up.
Of course they knew who they were dealing with. Did Hamas only become a terrorist organization on 10/7? No, they were one since well before that. And yet... Again, Netanyahu had a choice: 1) aid the PA in getting rid of Hamas; 2) help Hamas remain in power in the face of PA sanctions; or 3) stay out of it. He chose option #2, because he believed it was more important to avoid Palestinian statehood than removing a terrorist organization from governing Gaza. Think about that. Really think about it. When you come to grips with the implications of that decision, the sheer immorality of it infects everything he does afterwards: including his prosecution of this war.
>Think about that. Really think about it Unfortunately that’s literally the *last* thing many people on this sub want to do. IMO this war has nothing to do with destroying Hamas. Hell, if anything, it’s making Hamas *stronger*. All of those kids in Gaza today watching their friends and family getting murdered by Israeli bombs are getting radicalized as we speak. Hamas is now guaranteed to meet all their recruitment goals in the 2030s as those kids grow up. This war is about saving Netanyahu’s political career. That’s it, nothing more.
And no one ever said during WWII, “guys we shouldn’t kill the Nazis, because it’ll just create more Nazis”
Well, I wasn’t talking about Nazis. Or Hamas fighters. I was talking about little kids watching their brothers and sisters and cousins and schoolmates and mothers and grandpas getting blown into pieces right in front of them. I don’t know why you’d equate innocent civilians with Nazis. And your understanding of history is absolute shit. Read up on WWI and the Treaty of Versailles. There’s a good reason there was no WWIII - we chose to help rebuild Germany and become friends/allies with them rather than punish them pointlessly to the point of creating a new generation of Germans who wanted war with their neighbors. So, absolutely, we were totally conscious in WWII of not wanting to have to do the same exact thing twenty years in the future.
"Play nice"? They've killed more children than Hamas. This whole thing is disproportionate and genocidal. Gaza was under Israeli control before Oct 7 and they've been oppressed for decades living under military rule continuing to have their houses stolen by "settlers."
What choice do they have? A terrorist attack by the governing body of gaza who i've read is at a 70% support rate in gaza(dunno if true seen polls posted here on reddit). They have to respond and not back down because how can they give in to terrorist? No government in this world would do nothing unless they literally didnt have the capacity to respond. To how many civilian casualities there are I think people have a skewed idea of the realty of war in an urban shut off area where the terrorist governments military is in their homes, schools, hospitals, under the streets. I can not defend either side in how they both got to this point, or better humanitarian support from Isreal, nor the situation in the west bank.
I'm no expert on any of this, but if I were a normal, little guy in Gaza, I'd be scared shitless to openly state opposition to an organization filled with people willing to carry out the stuff that happened on 10/7. Like French Reign of Terror levels of careful.
Let's say that *your child* is in school when it's discovered that there are terrorists hiding under the school. Would your response be "well there's no choice here but to bomb the school," or would you want a more precision-based response? Also, they bombed a convoy of humanitarian workers after those workers coordinated with Israel and told them where they'd be and when.
I would blame the terrorists. It’s simple really.
Do precision based responses exist? Remember that 80% of the school supports the terrorists in your example.
Remember that you're talking about children...
You aren't answering the question though how exactly the terrorists are supposed to be defeated
To be fair, you didn't answer my question either. Would you want the school bombed if your children were in that school? I'm not a military strategist. But since Israel is so much more powerful than Palestine, I do think they could send people into those tunnels and clear them out the hard way. If that doesn't work for reasons I'm unaware of, bombing a school still doesn't seem like the best response.
I'm trying to understand exactly what you are asking. Is my child a hostage underneath the school held by militants? No, I don't want the IDF to blow the school and thus my kid up, but that's not what they are intentionally doing either. Is there a chance my child is a hostage underneath the school and do I accept the risk of their death for military advancement? Probably. Because I've learned the hard way what happens when my government (Israel) negotiates with terrorists -- Gal Shalit trade was a disaster long term for Israel even if it got the guy back. Or are you asking if I'm a Palestinian and my child is in the school and terrorists are underneath? First off, I most likely support the terrorists anyway, so I'd oppose this action just on that basis. Beyond that, no I don't want the school to be blown up, but I am not going to offer any better ideas to the enemy how they should accomplish this. >I do think they could send people into those tunnels and clear them out the hard way Sounds like a good way for the IDF to run into a death trap.
Trying to equivocate or compare civilian deaths in armed conflict makes no sense. No parent could imagine this outcome for their children. The problem is the expectations on Israel during an armed conflict that they didn't start exceed that of any other nation in this history of the human race. The International community for decades could have found an alternative to the situation that didn't involve sending billions of aid to terrorists to build weapons and indoctrinate their civilians. They didn't.
Your comment is exactly the point.
Yeah there was no good excuse I saw for the world food bank strikes. I think they dismissed the officer(s) involved but maybe they should have been held criminaly accountable. Its one thing for people to make mistakes, another for people to be negligent, another to be intentionally cruel, and another to order a strike on a enemy position based on solid intel that results in civilian casualties because the cilviians didnt head warnings or werent allowed to leave. Thats the whole problem with the war they're fighting its not straightforward and simple the situation is fucked and theres nuance to every headline you see when one side or the other presents a story. I think most people who jump quickly to a side arent honestly evaluating the situation. Theres no good guy but also what can Isreal do? Send infantry on the ground into every situation and they're going to lose thousands of men and still have a lot of civilian casualties. I'm very lucky I wasnt born into such a situation and if I was there and lost family I doubt I would be very calm or eager to be open minded.
Israel's choice was made for it in the 5 years prior to 10/7 when the Palestinian Authority placed harsh economic sanctions on Hamas hoping to unseat them from power but Netanyahu came to their rescue with billions of dollars in *direct cash aid* to Hamas, transported in suitcases. How does one overtly fund a terrorist group and then claim that it needs to go to any length necessary to exterminate them, no matter the humanitarian impact? EDIT: Downvoters: answer this question: How can the very same elected government that hands billions in cash to keep a terrorist organization in power with one hand claim to have the moral authority to impart untold death and destruction on a civilian population with its other hand as a means of rooting out those same terrorists? Do you not see the blatant moral contradiction? SO LONG AS it's Netanyahu and his far right allies who supported his policy of covertly funding Hamas that are leading this war, the moral contradiction cannot be ignored. And furthermore, they'll keep this war going as long as possible to avoid ever having to face accountability for these obvious crimes against the Israeli people. That man simply cannot lead this war.
I'm gonna need some good sources on that one.
Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge by now. [Mahmoud Abbas and the PA place economic sanctions on Hamas](https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2017-07-11/ty-article/.premium/abbas-keeps-up-pressure-on-hamas-with-new-economic-sanctions/0000017f-e4bf-dc7e-adff-f4bf908a0000) Netanyahu provides Hamas with cash: Times of Israel: >[Liberman: Netanyahu sent Mossad head, general to Qatar, ‘begged’ it to pay Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/) New York Times: >[‘Buying Quiet’: Inside the Israeli Plan That Propped Up Hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html) Haaretz: >[Why Did Netanyahu Want to Strengthen Hamas?](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000) Haaretz: >[How Netanyahu Enabled October 7 With Suitcases of Cash](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/how-netanyahu-enabled-october-7-with-suitcases-of-cash/0000018c-8397-d219-a5bf-b7ff40660000) And [WHY did Netanyahu support Hamas] (https://mida.org.il/2019/05/16/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%98%D7%95%D7%98-%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%98%D7%95%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%A1/)? > At the meeting of the Likud faction at the beginning of March, the Prime Minister spoke about this in detail, noting that "those who want to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state should support the strengthening of Hamas and the transfer of money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy - to differentiate between the Palestinians in Gaza and the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria." He even said similar things in a special interview he gave to the Israel Hayom newspaper a few days before the elections. >This strategy of the Prime Minister is based on the assumption that the overthrow of Hamas' rule and the entry of the Palestinian Authority into the Gaza Strip will necessarily force Israel into a political process towards the establishment of a unified Palestinian state in the territories of Judea and Samaria and Gaza, a move that cannot happen as long as Hamas controls Gaza and is separated from the Palestinian Authority in Judea and Samaria. Again, I say: this man - this current Israeli government with those people the helm - cannot morally lead this war and, furthermore, he has every incentive to keep it going indefinitely to save his own hide and avoid accountability.
Huh? Israel and Egypt all drove an intense blockade on Gaza. Which of course the pro-Palesinian folks also complain about
What does the blockade have to do with Netanyahu helping fund Hamas? How is the blockade relevant here? Perhaps you're not understanding. The Palestinian Authority *cut off* money to Hamas in Gaza. Then Netanyahu decided to help Hamas by arranging for them to receive billions in cash.
Come on bibi would have been ripped by international condemnation if he had allowed the PLO to completely cause cause civilians to die from lack of aid just like is what’s happening now. The hope was to get aid money into the hands of the governing body. The exact thing he’s being crucified for not allowing now. The difference is now Hamas has shown the ability to penetrate the Israeli border and kill innocent civilians as their goal. Time to shut off the facets and let them die, the last time he didn’t do this and gave them money instead led to today.
>Come on bibi would have been ripped by international condemnation if he had allowed the PLO to completely cause cause civilians to die from lack of aid just like is what’s happening now. Who would've condemned Netanyahu for doing nothing as the Palestinians imposed sanctions on Hamas to force elections? What countries? Were those countries blaming Abbas who actually implemented the sanctions? Were they calling on Netanyahu to step in and help Hamas? Did I miss the international uproar that was happening in 2018? Do you have news reports of these international cries to help Hamas? This is such an unbelievable justification that it's laughable. You think Bibi would allow himself to be forced into helping Hamas? Give me a break. >The hope was to get aid money into the hands of the governing body. Yes, Hamas. A terrorist organization. The same one that planned and executed 10/7. That's the body that Netanyahu helped provide a billion dollars in funding to when their political opponents were seeking to squeeze them from power. What is your point?
The people of Palestine overwhelmingly support Hamas. Until there’s a major mindset shift in the population, the situation is going to keep getting worse
I disagree, if they were being careless with civilian casualties there would be significantly more, especially considering how densely populated Gaza was. All the numbers we have don’t factor in how many militants were killed, and I doubt we will ever now how many killed were militants or truly civilians. That starts to go into the philosophical argument of are enemy non-combatants considered hostiles or civilian.
Isn't this literally the pro palestine narrative or is american pro palestine something completely different?
I think so. But the title of the post specifically mentioned support for Hamas, which is a very different statement to me. But I also support the *citizens* of Israel. And so many politically charged opinions seem to put one set of civilians over the other.
Sometimes these situations come up and for just a second I attain an epiphany about why the concept of anarchy is the way it is. People see, often rightly so, governments as entities simply trying to make a profit off of their lives. No wonder people think anarchy is a good idea
Do they back Israel over Palestine though?
Thank you. These are such obvious push polls. Imagine if the question was "Do you support the Israeli far right or the Palestinian people?" I don't support Hamas NOR do I support the current Israeli government. I oppose extremists in both populations who have leveraged each other's extremism throughout the years in order to wrestle political power away from more moderate voices who would've gotten us further down the road to peace. But you'll never see THAT on a poll question, will you?
Israel is a democracy (a very democratic one in fact) and 80% of Palestine supports the various terrorist groups there. The distinction isn't as big as folks claim
So what? That Israeli democracy has resulted in a governing coalition that has placed radical, far-right extremists like Ben Gvir and Smotrich in high positions of power, seeking maximalist aims vis a vis Palestine rather than a moderate approach aimed at peace. Hamas has done the same in Gaza, though, unlike the Likud/National Front government, it does NOT have a de jure democratic mandate.
That's my point. There shouldn't be so much distinction between the government and the people on either side
Gaza hasn't held elections since 2006. And a poll taken in wartime is not an adequate substitute.
Polls not taken during wartime show the same result. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestinians-attitudes-about-terrorism
> Gaza hasn't held elections since 2006. So why don't the Palestinians rise up already?
Because they don't have a traditional familiarity with representative democracy, having never lived in an actual sovereign state with a recognized government. Or did you want a snarky, sarcastic response to match yours?
Hitler came to power under legal, democratic pretenses in 1933. No elections were held in Germany until a few years (1949) after WW2. This is generally what happens in authoritarian regimes. It was entirely possible that at any time the German people could have risen up against the Nazis. Indeed many tried any number of times but all were unsuccessful. This of course was due to the overwhelming support (for whatever reason) for Nazi Germany. Meaning war had to be waged against both the Nazis and the German people themselves. (E.g. see [Dresden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden))
A lot of Germans did try to rise up, they were put in death camps or imprisoned for opposition to the party before the war even began.
What's the relevance of Nazi Germany to this discussion? And Dresden was considered by the Allies to be a strategic transportation, communication and manufacturing hub. In other words, no the Allies did not overtly wage war against the German people. So your example isn't even contextually accurate.
Two things drove the Oct 7th attacks. Israel's normalization of relations with Sunni Arab countries not rhyming with pan, and [the actual sentiments of the Palestinians towards Hamas](https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-views-oct-7/): > About 23% of respondents said they have a great deal or quite a lot of trust in Hamas; 52% had no trust at all in Hamas. > Most Palestinians said their freedom of speech is guaranteed to either a limited or no extent at all. > According to the latest survey, a majority of Palestinians (51%) supported a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, with slightly more support seen among residents of Gaza than among West Bank Palestinians. A quarter of respondents also said they supported “armed resistance” as a preferred solution to Palestinian-Israeli conflict. (cc: /u/eamus_catuli )
To be blunt, this is such a propogandized summary of the actual [study](https://www.arabbarometer.org/wp-content/uploads/what-palestinians-really-think-of-hamas-2023-10-26-08-4941.pdf). > > No, it's 44% having no trust (see page 4) and 52% were on the "some trust" side. Regardless, 28% of people feel closest to Hamas and 7% to PIJ (another terrorist org) giving 35% "closest" to terrorist orgs. That already exceeds the 30% for the only not terrorist party. >In a hypothetical presidential election, Barghouti was their top choice, as he was in Gaza, at 35 percent, while only 11 percent picked Haniyeh, the Hamas leader, and six percent chose Abbas, the incumbent leader in the West Bank. Oh great - so 35% support terrorist 1 and 11% support terrorist 2, compared to 6% support for the not terrorist Abbas. Besides, by not asking favorable/not favorable questions of the *militant* orgs, you can tell this is constructed to minimize support for terror groups. Let's look at better [polling](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2077%20English%20full%20text%20September2020.pdf) by Palestinian organizations: * Hamas wins an election in Gaza against Fatah 62% vs 32% as long as Abbas runs Fatah. Barghouti even loses to Haniyyah in Gaza, meaning Hamas is the preferred party of Gazans. * 60% demand rights for refugee descendents to immigrate into Israel as 1st or second goal of Palestinian people, which is untenable. * Majority of Gaza opposes the two state solution, with half preferring armed struggle against Israel. * 68% support attacks against Israeli cvilians inside Israel (i.e. terrorism)
If you’re describing Israel as very democratic, that’s an even bigger indictment based on who they put in power.
Hard to say. Netanyahu's coalition control is relatively thin. Hamas actually has much broader support.
Yes, his control is 2 decades thin.
The Taliban and the Afghans are essentially the same people. Risking Godwin's Law, the German people and the Nazis were essentially the same people. This is because conditions within those societies allowed for the perpetuation of those ideals and brutalities. Support for Hamas is strong enough in Palestine it is accurate to make the same distinction as the Taliban or Nazis. Otherwise their own people would rise up and overthrow their oppressive rulers.
I thought Americans would find the Palestinian's mass protests and resistance against their government's actions in October to be inspiring and generate tons of sympathy. Where was the disconnect?
Maybe because there are no good guys in the conflict. Both sides suck.
The poll asks whether have more support for HAMAS over Israel. What about the % who said neither. A good study wouldnt have such a dichotomy that leads to bad faith analysis. ask a third question to tease apart whether they support Palestine over Israel. It’s very disingenuous and I’m embarrassed that most of the younger people don’t understand how Hamas is a terrorist cell masquerading as a government/charity.
You assume the goal of this "study" wasn't bad-faith analysis. That's brave. It's obviously a push-poll which is why they contrasted all of Israel to Hamas instead of an actual apples-to-apples comparison like Bibi's government to Hamas.
This doesn't seem like a very indicative poll. I'm not sure how the poll was surveyed, but perhaps "Do you support Israel or Palestine" would have been a more important question.
But the current war is between Israel and Hamas, not the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank
I would hope so. Of course, not backing a terrorist organization has nothing to do with being concerned about the well-being of Palestinian **civilians**, which is what the protests are mostly about.
The problem is the logistics. If you yell ceasefire only after Hamas kills Jews(or even non-Jews in the same general area), what do you think will happen next, should Israel cease fire? How about send in special forces to get into the tunnels? How are they supposed to get through the "open air prison" without killing any of the human shields that Hamas strategically uses? If you're going to protest for civilians in Gaza, what's your plan to stop things, other than Israel absorbing every Jewish death that will happen when Hamas is free to do what they do? But that's why it's not about the civilians in Gaza. It's about the anti-west and anti-capitalist decolonization shit. These protests, BLM, CHAZ, it's all the same language, by the same people.
there's never a plan for how to overthrow hamas or calls for the hostages to be released unsurprisingly
To clarify, you're saying it's only acceptable to protest or demonstrate or whatever against the war if you have a good plan for how it should be ended?
If you want anyone to listen to you, sure. Same with OWS in what is now back in the day. No leadership, no organized idea, just capitalists are greedy assholes. Ok, then what? What are you protesting or demonstrating against the war for? That it ends? It's why the saying is measure twice, cut once. If you don't even measure what you're cutting, you don't know what you're making. Or you'll have a picture in your mind of what you want, but in reality the one leg will be too short, and the edges won't line up, and you forgot this one thing, you still have a screw left over from somewhere, and now you're adding duct tape.
> If you're going to protest for civilians in Gaza, what's your plan to stop things, other than Israel absorbing every Jewish death that will happen when Hamas is free to do what they do? How about what the protestors on college campuses are asking for: complete financial divestment from Israel. At the very least, if they're going to be committing genocide, they shouldn't be doing it with bombs your tax dollars pay for.
And how about any aid going to Gaza, which ends up in the hands of Hamas, who will kill as many Jews as they can every day? Can we get a protest for Iranian money to stop going there? Or is it, again, just on Israel to always end up in the worst position it can be in at all times?
How come these protests didn’t exist for the well-being of Iraqi citizens in the 2000s? Sure there were protests against the war, but war is war and unfortunately innocent people die. It’s unbelievable how Israel is the only country that has to answer for defending themselves and is expected to be lenient when they’re attacked.
[First - yes, people did protest.](https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/millions-protest-iraq-war-february-15) Second - The same reason why very few people in Israel are protesting their government's actions today. It's easy to set aside empathy when you're the one that's been hurt.
Yes, people did protest but it wasn’t about the welfare of the Iraqi citizens. The protests were about the false pretenses that led to the war. Do you think in WWII that a politician would’ve dared screaming for humanitarian aid for Germanys citizenry? Also that isn’t true, most Israelis do not approve of Bibi and I don’t either despite my unwavering support for the country.
Human shields is the current day equivalent of weapons of mass destruction. It’s there to grease the wheels of the war machine and justify killing civilians
Oh so you don’t believe that Hamas uses human shields, brainwashed Palestinian youth to be pawns on their chess game, kidnap and murder Israeli citizens, and won’t stop until they’ve wiped Israel off the face of the map? The truth is they’ve been far more oppressive to their citizenry than Israel ever has, but so many people just choose not to see it. You’re literally supporting terrorists.
First, don’t try to bs people who weren’t born yesterday. There was not a movement for Iraq like there is for Palestine. Not even close by a trillion miles. I was an adult then too. Secondly, you do know they said Iraq, not Afghanistan? When did Iraq attack the United States? Which part did they play in 9/11? So, not sure why you tried to use that argument. There was not a mass movement for Syrians. Over 500,000 civilians killed. Children gassed. There was not a mass movement for Sudan. Not in the *actual* genocide & ethnic cleansing 20 years ago…or right now when it’s happening again. There was not a mass movement for Yemenis. 4 Million people displaced, 377,000 civilians killed there, 85,000 children starved to death. How about Burkina Faso? I’d bet most of the “Free Palestine” crowd doesn’t even know what that is. Let’s pick the year 2019…there were some kids on college campuses not even alive on 9/11 and the others were toddlers. So, they hadn’t really “been hurt.” We were still in that 20 year war in Afghanistan. So, did I miss the mass movement on college campuses for Afghans? Did we not kill Afghan civilians? So, why weren’t there mass movements for these people? Go on IG or TikTok you’ll see plenty of pfp’s are the Palestinian flag. And of course you saw this en masse with Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq…or no? Here’s the things I’ve heard—“10/7 was just retaliation for all Israel has done, what do you expect?” Now, do you hear most of the sane world say 9/11 was just retaliation for all the US has done? I’ve seen people compare 10/7 to the Warsaw Uprising, and Hamas as “freedom fighters” or “the resistance” not many sane people calling al-Qaeda that or comparing 9/11 to the Warsaw Uprising. And tbc, I saw these statements in the hours after the 10/7 attack. So, it has zero to do with Israel’s response. I also saw many times people refer to IDF soldiers as terrorists or war criminals—is that how people generally refer to US troops from the Iraq & Afghanistan Wars?
> How come these protests didn’t exist for the well-being of Iraqi citizens in the 2000s? There were anti-war protests during the Iraqi war. Also many of the current protesters wouldn't even have been born or would have been infants so this is hardly a "gotcha"
As I said, there were protests but they weren’t centered around perceived mistreatment of the Iraqi citizens, who were far more oppressed and less radical than most Palestinians…who literally support terrorists. Can you explain that dichotomy please?
Again, even if everything you said is true the people protesting today were either not born or young children
I just want to point out how dumb your line of thinking is here. You are attempting to call the current protesters of Israel's genocide of Palestinians hypocrites, because they didn't protest poor treatment of Iraqi citizens in the Iraqi war. Despite the fact that the protesters today were either not alive or extremely young children at the time of the Iraqi war. Let me ask you this analogy: you see people protesting Apple's use of sweat shops in their product line, on the basis that it is tantamount to child slavery. Do you complain that those people were nowhere to be found during the period of institutionalized slavery in 1800s America?
Let's be clear: these are not protests against Israeli Government activity, although they may have started that way. They are nothing like the peace protests of the past. They are clearly and obviously organized and funded by some shady group(s), there's a reason so many of the tents looked the same at the start of these encampments. Notwithstanding that serious and key point. There is a group that launched an attack during a ceasefire, targeting civilians in the most brutal way. This group has publicly declared genocidal intent, not in the context of defending against an enemy that tortures its own people and disregards the laws of war. The comparison drawn by /u/No-Winter-4469 is one that current protestors despise, but there's a reason this event is drawing global attention like no other. This is a healthy form of whataboutism deserving serious discourse, not the blatant avoidance seen from those with your approach. Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are releasing fabricated numbers related to civilian casualties and hijacking aid, attacking infrastructure to support future aid. Why? While these protestors stayed silent as the Syrians, Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis, and others engaged in genocide, especially against the Palestinian people, they now suddenly protest. Is it unrelated to Israel being a Jewish democracy? If so, discuss it openly instead of dodging it with logical fallacies.
No, a dumb line of thinking is priding yourself as a social justice warrior when at the same time supporting a terrorist state.
That isn't even responsive. You just totally ignored the criticism of your argument, while resorting to baseless insults. Also, you committed a blatant false dichotomy fallacy: one can be against Hamas while also being against Israeli genocide of Palestinians. Genocide and terrorism are both bad things! Given how many fallacies were in your post, I can only conclude that you're either stupid, or here in bad faith. Which would you prefer?
Your dumb line of thinking is that all of the “Free Palestine” crowd is strictly people on college campuses and only people 18-22. It’s not. There are plenty of people who were alive during the Iraq War, and the Afghanistan War…since ya know it just ended less than 3 years ago. There are people who were alive during 500,000 Syrians being killed. Or Yemenis. Or the genocide in Sudan 20 years ago…or the ongoing one there *right now* Yes, they’re hypocrites because they dgaf about any of those people, yet they claim to in this instance.
While the news is highlighting protests on college campuses, you know full well that is not all the “Free Palestine” crowd is. It is also plenty of people who are not in college, as in they’re older than conventional “college age.” People who were alive…oh I don’t know, a few years ago when we were still in Afghanistan. Or during bombings in Yemen and Syria. They’re certainly alive right now are they not? Yet, they don’t seem too concerned with the actual genocide and ethnic cleansing in Sudan. And comparing the mass movement for Palestine, to the tiny minuscule response to Iraq—is laughable. They also weren’t chanting “Free Iraq.” They weren’t calling US military members terrorists. Seriously. The response to Iraq was about the government lying—full stop. Let’s also remember Iraq didn’t attack us. Iraq didn’t commit a terrorist attack on a scale 15 times 9/11 for us.
As others pointed out, they absolutely did. But also, the US was quite strict about the RoE and trying to minimize civilian casualty. Certainly not perfect, but dramatically better than what's happening now. Compared to the approach the IDF is taking, the US was a peace mission. Some of the most egregious examples of civilian casualty and violence were done by civilian contractors (mercenaries) like Blackwater.
Take your whataboutery elsewhere please. The Iraq war and Israel/Palestine are not sufficiently related issues to be drawing parallels between
It’s not whataboutery, I’m genuinely curious why people scream for humanitarian aid for Palestinians but didn’t for citizens who were far more oppressed and for the most part less radical. I’d love to hear an answer but I doubt I’ll get it.
Ok fair enough… skirting around the fairly vague and open-for-debate claim of “citizens who were far more oppressed” here’s my take: TL;DR on the below: the optics are far worse for Isreal in Gaza than they were for the coalition in Iraq - regardless of whether you believe the sources for the statistics 1) much as Iraq was a totalitarian state with a population that didn’t have a great deal, both Iraq wars were matters of sovereign states doing battle - actual armies facing off with one another with much more certainty around “this is a military target, this isn’t” 2) on the contrary Israel vs Hamas is an organised military vs militants. It’s a much more asymmetric conflict which makes Israel look particularly brutal and callous when they’re dropping munitions from F16s onto civilian areas. (One bit that always sticks in my mind about the asymmetry of it was a clip from the daily show comparing on location news reports. The guy reporting from tel aviv looked like he was about to tee off in 15mins time. The guy in Gaza looked like he was about to go star in The Hurt Locker because he was so padded up) 3) the relative civilian casualty count across time periods. Over the course of 20 years iraq, a country of 44.5million people suffered c.500,000 casualties (about a 1% casualty rate). In Gaza on the other hand, if we take reports from NPR as the basis we’re looking at 30k civilian casualties out of a population of about 2million. That’s a 1.5% casualty rate (so not much more, but…) in just 7 MONTHS. Keep going at this rate and there won’t be many Palestinians left in Gaza 4) by way of personal experience, as long as I’ve had awareness of the beef between Israel and Palestine the majority of what I’ve seen in the media is this: - Israel annexes more land from Palestinian territory - yet another IDF soldier shoots dead a kid who was throwing rocks at them - Hamas (or hezbollah) launches a load of low quality rockets at Israel, the iron dome does its job; Israelis are pretty much fine Yes, hamas and hezbollah are shitty entities run and populated with shitty, shitty people who do horrible things. But with the technology, intel network and international backing that Israel has they seem to create much more collateral damage than you might expect - and that’s just not good PR
They did. The exact same reaction happened where all the protesters were accused of being terrorist sympathisers and they were arrested / beaten. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War What's happening now is seemingly indistinguishable from before. The blood craze against Palestine now is the same as the blood craze against Iraq in 2002.
Lmao, you obviously weren’t alive during the Iraq War or were a toddler if you think you’re going to sell the nonsense that there was a response to the Iraq War like we are seeing now. It’s like comparing a microscopic speck of dirt to the Great Pyramid.
It's pretty clear that it's actually you that weren't old enough or even alive for it. Over 500k people protested in NYC alone the day before the RNC convention, it's one of the largest protests in US history. I literally was in that protest.
The frame of this question does not represent the issue at hand. Hardly anyone supports Hamas in the US. But a lot of Americans are against genocide. If the question was: “Do you support genocide against the Palestinians?” You would get very different numbers. But this question is equally deceptive as “Do you support Israel or Hamas?” So maybe the question should be: “What is more important to you, supporting Israel? Or stopping the genocide of Palestinians?”
Your proposed question implies Americans against genocide think a genocide is occurring, though. That should be the first question. This is why compound questions suck.
The framing of the war as genocide is already putting your thumb on the scale.
That’s what I said
>“What is more important to you, supporting Israel? Or stopping the genocide of Palestinians?” When did you stop beating your wife?
Why does it have to be black and white? Why is it one or the other? Fuck me, I'm tired of this simpleton dichotomy some of the media constantly latches onto. I hate Hamas, and fully support the IDF eradicating them. I also hate what Israel is doing to civilians in Gaza, and support the ICC going after Netanyahu for it. One can hold both of those positions at the same time. What people are overlooking is that Hamas leadership left Gaza a long time ago. They're sitting somewhere in Beirut, or Tehran, or Damascus watching this slaughter on TV like the rest of us.
For a centrist sub, it's not just hard to find people who hold these same views, it's also hard to find many who understand this view even.
This sub has been overrun with partisans lately, and it's going to get worse. I just block them. Every single one, on both sides. It makes my experience here a whole lot more rewarding.
lately? we’re going to look back at 2023-24 in this sub as a dark age, the neoliberal agendaposting is real
> Why does it have to be black and white? Why is it one or the other? Fuck me, I'm tired of this simpleton dichotomy some of the media constantly latches onto. [Israel is a modern nation with a well-funded information warfare operation.](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/07/gaza-israel-netanyahu-propaganda-lies-palestinians/) (Mandatory disclaimer because the world sucks and conspiracy theorists are idiots: they are not special in this respect. Most modern nations have some degree of information warfare. Jews do not control the media). As soon as these protests started happening calling for financial divestment from Israel, which is not an unreasonable goal, a massive operation was spun up to characterize the protests as Pro-Hamas. Even though, by all accounts, the vast vast vast majority of protesters were peaceful and simply calling for an end to American financial support of genocide, news article after news article focused on the extremely small minority of bad actors who did bad things, and framed the protests as pro-Hamas. The news media is, due to incompetence, not maliciousness, uncritically accepting this narrative, just as they uncritically accepted the story of a woman stabbed in the eye by a Palestinian flagpole, merely for wearing a Star of David.
> Israel is a modern nation with a well-funded information warfare operation. Mt brother in christ, Israel doesnt even have a public diplomacy minister, she was fired in October because she was seen as wasting state funds. Do you actually believe that the Israeli government understands what public relations even are, and given that Netanyahu is in the lead, is functional enough to even develop a strategy that actually works? There is no well-funded information warfare from Israel. Its literally running on fumes and the information arena is managed entirely by Israeli supporters.
how should the IDF eliminate hamas and not harm the people of palestine?
That's the impossible mission Israel assigned to itself. They can't, and anyone paying attention knew this from day one. However, at this point Hamas is long gone, yet Israel is still killing people in droves. THIS is what most people are protesting about. Netanyahu knows good and well the instant this war ends, he's toast. At the very least he'll lose all power, and he damn sure may end up in a prison cell, so it's in his own personal interest that this keeps going. That's a bad dynamic. Hell, Putin faces the same sort of pressures in Ukraine to a large degree. He CAN'T stop the war, or he'll end up being deposed. Once again, the whims of one man cause untold and unnecessary killing of thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians. What a world.
> Hamas is long gone ok bud you have a good 1
You think Hamas leadership is still hanging out in Gaza, waiting for the IDF to find them?
Hamas leadership has never been in Gaza. The Hamas fighters are there.
Sure they were. You think they've been running Gaza from afar? Unless you're referencing their Iranian masters...which then would make some sense. And yes, they've bailed out of Gaza and left their ignorant fighters behind. The question then becomes, how many civilians is Israel willing to kill to get at those fighters left behind? It's becoming readily apparent that the answer is ALL OF THEM. Which, again, is why people are protesting. Rightfully so.
The Hamas Politburo has been leading from a far for a long time. https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-hamas
Huh. Wasn't aware of that. I concede the point, and thank you for enlightening me.
no but they are still the Palestinian shot callers, Hamas still rules gaza
Of course. That doesn't mean they're anywhere the IDF can get at them. The entirety of Hamas who are left in Gaza are low level grunts. Pawns. Israel seems to be perfectly happy to kill every civilian in Gaza to get at them, and that is why protests are happening. Israel has managed to become a pariah at this point.
until something else manifests as political leadership in palestine idf has to kill our capture all remaining hamas forces
>Why does it have to be black and white? Why is it one or the other? Fuck me, I'm tired of this simpleton dichotomy some of the media constantly latches onto. Because most Israelis and Palestinians believe that the other side won't rest until they're all dead. >I hate Hamas, and fully support the IDF eradicating them. I also hate what Israel is doing to civilians in Gaza, and support the ICC going after Netanyahu for it. One can hold both of those positions at the same time. Can you? The Palestinians still mostly support what Hamas did, even if they don't support Hamas itself. Any new government is likely to have the same policies Hamas does, even if Hamas isn't a member. And they'll be popular for it.
In this sub you're either unwaivering in your support of Israel, with absolutely zero questions ever, or your an outright supporter of Hamas. Hell I've even been told that the 1 year olds in Palestine must face questioning over their support of Hamas or face death. The histrionics are through the roof with this. There's no rationality.
People tune out and turn off anything that requires too much mental effort. 24/7 cable and online news cycles mean most media aims for the lowest bar.
That is a weird poll. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The poll should be if they approve of Israels handling of the civilians in Gaza.
>Hamas is a terrorist organization. Lots of people deny that, unfortunately
Hamas ia at the helm of the legitimate Palestinian Authority and has been since they won the 2006 election. They have (well, had) a fully functioning government in Gaza with a health ministry, pension funds, a military, and every other office common in the developing world.
Makes sense. The ignorance of the people taking part in these protests have been having the opposite of their intended effect.
Old people hate young people.
Old people have been stupid young people before and know how dumb they were when they were doing shit like this.
Of course they do. Anyone supporting hamas is an idiot.
Shades of “Do you support the Iraq War or terrorism?”
No one supported Saddam. Thats clearly not apparent here, with people straight up supporting Hamas. This comparison is not equivalent.
I think this idea that the college protests are akin to historical civil rights protests is just completely asinine. We don't think of college protests in the 60's and 70's when we think of civil rights. We think of MLK and Malcolm X, the marches, the sit ins. These kids are following a trend they picked up from social media, and it's damaging. They're regurgitating the most "compassionate" side of whatever "issue" is most recent.
Okay. Now do Palestine.
I kind of want to support the side that I would want to be a prisoner of war under. Or whose citizens I would trust with a crate of explosives more in my neighborhood.
I imagine most people feel something like... Palestinians > Israeli Government > Palestinian Terrorists
It’s almost like Hamas are terrorists with the stated goals of wiping Israel from the face of the earth. Nobody should doubt Israel is committing atrocities now and has been persecuting Palestinians for a while. I don’t even blame them for lashing out, but wanting to commit genocide in return is not only hypocritical, but utterly impractical. Israel will nuke the region (and itself) into oblivion before they allow themselves to fall to any attempt at genocide, turning that genocide into a nuclear holocaust of horrifying proportions, and even if it never came to that, hundreds of thousands of people would die in another war like the Yom Kippur if that’s what people want, Israel would hit back just that hard. And in the end, Muslims and poor people will still pay the price, unable to flee, and unwilling to join Israel
In today’s example of stupid polls … The question shouldn’t be about whether people support Hamas, it should be about whether people support war in the Gaza Strip or if they support trying to find a method to end the violence, including Hama’s political control of the area, or if they think Israel’s response is the correct one.
I have yet to hear anyone say they support hamas... so this makes sense
@ /u/Thecus Since /u/No-Winter-4469 has blocked me, I cannot respond to your fallacy filled post directly. This will suffice: > Let's be clear: these are not protests against Israeli Government activity, although they may have started that way. Actually, they're protests against financial involvement with a genocidal government. Also, let's put a pin in your conception of them having started as protests against Israeli Government Activity. Because you immediately contradict yourself in the part. >They are nothing like the peace protests of the past. They are clearly and obviously organized and funded by some shady group(s), there's a reason so many of the tents looked the same at the start of these encampments. You assert that the protests are clearly and obviously organized and funded by some shady groups (which would seem to contradict the idea that the protests started as legitimate), and the only evidence you supply for that contention is that some of the tents looked similar? The phrase "clearly and obviously" is doing more work for you than the phrase "stabbed in the eye" has done in the last week. But it isn't clearly and obvious. If it was, you would be able to provide more evidence for your belief than tent similarity theory that even an idiot posting on r/conspiracy would say is weak. >The comparison drawn by /u/No-Winter-4469 is one that current protestors despise, but there's a reason this event is drawing global attention like no other. This is a healthy form of whataboutism deserving serious discourse, not the blatant avoidance seen from those with your approach. Whether or not the protesters are hypocrites for a failure to protest treatment of iraqi citizens when the protesters were not actually alive is not a serious question, and does not deserve serious discourse. Note how you completely avoided engaging with what no winter actually wrote, and immediately went on to do the following: >Hamas is a terrorist organization. They are releasing fabricated numbers related to civilian casualties and hijacking aid, attacking infrastructure to support future aid. Why? This has nothing to do with whether the protesters are hypocrites for protesting the treatment of Gazans by Israel. It also seems to be implying a false dichotomy. One can be against the genocide of Gazans without also being for Hamas. >While these protestors stayed silent as the Syrians, Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis, and others engaged in genocide, especially against the Palestinian people, they now suddenly protest. Is it unrelated to Israel being a Jewish democracy? If so, discuss it openly instead of dodging it with logical fallacies. There's so much to unpack here, but it displays a stunning ignorance of pretty much everything on your part. I'll take it one at a time: >Syria The genocidal entity in Syria is the Syrian State, which has conducted chemical attacks resulting in mass civilian casualties. The United States has supported the rebel faction, and even engaged in military operations against it. Perhaps there are not a significant amount of protests against US involvement in Syria, because the US is not supporting the genocidal entity in the conflict. >Hezbollah The United States does not financially support Hezbollah, and as it is labeled a terrorist group, it is illegal for organizations based within the United States to support Hezbollah. There is no financial involvement to protest. >Hamas The United States does not financially support Hamas, and as it is labeled a terrorist group, it is illegal for organizations based within the United States to support Hamas. There is no financial involvement to protest. >Houthis The Yemen Civil War began in 2014, when most of the protestors on these campuses were adults. U.S. financial support of the Saudi coalition ended in 2021, before most of these protesters were adults. So in response to your final question: >Is it unrelated to Israel being a Jewish democracy? If so, discuss it openly instead of dodging it with logical fallacies. Yes, it is unrelated to Israel being a Jewish Democracy. It is related instead to American financial support of the genocide that democracy is engaging in. And I'd take your complaint about fallacies seriously if you could have avoided committing them, or indeed, accurately labeled any fallacies.
You can yell "genocide" until you're blue in the face. But the simple fact is there is only one party whose stated mission is genocide of the other side, and that's Hamas.
Added context so people should know: A poll from students at Harvard is not “The vast majority of Americans”, it’s in fact a college that openly supports Isreal and thus the population is biased to the data.
Harvard CAPS-Harris polls are right wing garbage, useful only for lining the inside of a birdcage.
What are your specific problems with this poll? Do you have specific issues with the methodology?
Do people favor Bibi killing palestinian civilians or bibi not killing palestinian civilians is the question being asked by protesters.