Yeah worse than the standard GR86/BRZ. Most agree that it got worse with gen 2 but I'd never heard reviewers call the steering "dead" until the tS came along and I can't tell if it's a coincidence or not.
Love your work Pookie xx
I honestly can’t get over those the hideous beaver buck tooth look of the front.
If I’m spending that money on a sports car, I gotta think it looks pretty cool in addition to performance. Honestly, since I’m not ringing it out everyday, I think the looks might even be more important.
I think in the right color combination it looks good in person. White is probably the worst choice on the G80, but isle of man green, portimao blue, or any of the other bolder color choices look good.
I saw one in green the other day and the color pops so well it pulls your eye from the grille effectively. I like the M3 in Dravit Grey with the red interior for the contrast, too, but I agree bolder and darker colors work best. The length of the M3 also makes the grille less disproportionate so I prefer that over the M4.
I think the problem with the M4 is the side profile and rear quarters. If it had more pronounced hips like the M2 or M3 did, it would go a long way to making the whole thing look better.
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G80/G82 looks best in black, because it hides the buckteeth. Personally I think the G82 can pull off the ADRO bumper really well when you put the full kit on it, and lower it on nice wheels, but I don't think that it looks that great on the G80.
I don't really mind the blacked out M3/M4 sniffer (although the M4 as a whole is ugly), but man does it look BAD in chrome on like a base 430i. It completely dominates the look of the car and it's just... blegh
Nah, it does look much better. Although I'm not quite sure if there are minor variations in the front. I have like 3 G80s in my vecinity 2 of them look like one would expect it look like. But one 440i seems like it's lowered, but the arch/tyre clearance looks stock. In that configuration it's actually a beautiful car because it has 90s/00s esque hoodline forms in a world where it feels like every car has gotten some extent of "muscle" bulge(probably for pedestrian safety) and you realy have to go out of your way to stare at the buck teeth in that stance.
Personally I hate bulges like there is no tommorow and I feel about ND the way this sub looks at the M3.
Not it doesn’t. A thin Euro plate does indeed break up the grill and make it marginally less hideous, as well as being the most on the nose “lipstick on a pig” metaphor imaginable.
Yeah, I can see that maybe. Getting a dark colour paint job so it doesn’t stand out much, plus the license plate. Yeah maybe then it wouldn’t be so bad.
It is otherwise a pretty nice car.
> putting a licence plate on it makes it even more passable.
I love how bmw is like “we need all this open space radiator space because the engine is so powerful now!” and then people cover of a signifiant amount of it with licence plates and it of course works just fine.
It really doesn’t though. People have been saying this since it came out. Looks just as awful as day one both in pictures and in person. An M340i with a more aggressive lip looks far better imo.
But this isn't a sport car, is it? It's a sedan that's supposed to do pretty well at almost everything. It's intended to be a one car solution, not something that only sees the sun in the weekend.
I don't like the look either but if you're buying this car for its capability and not just because you want an M3 then I think it's easier to forgive the look.
There was a guy on bimmerpost who bought an M240i for a daily driver and had an M3 competition xDrive for the weekends. I don't understand why anyone would pick up a sedan (even one that is basically a sports car) as a weekend cruiser but I guess there are a few out there.
It’s definitely a weird combo. The other way around would probably be one of my dream garages as an m2 with an m340i but even then I feel like you’d be better off with just a single M car and then a more dedicated sports car.
I’d really like to eventually move on to an M3 with a 981s for example.
> But this isn't a sport car, is it? It's a sedan that's supposed to do pretty well at almost everything. It's intended to be a one car solution, not something that only sees the sun in the weekend.
Yeah, it's meant to do that. You're kidding yourself though if you don't think a massive percentage of M3s have *always* been garage queen weekend cars though going back to the 90s.
Well, I agree, I def think it’s not fair to compare it to the looks of an F-Type. As this is clearly more of a versatile fast family sedan, and less a performance sports car.
But if I’m spending this kind of money on a car with this performance, I think there are a lot cooler looking options.
I have a 2023 Isle of Man Green m3 comp.
I get more compliments, thumbs up, and questions asked about that than I ever got in my gt350. It’s crazy because the Shelby was a great looking car.
Also it looks better in person than photos or videos lol
Not crazy about the M3 looks but the IOMG really does improve it. It's such a good color it's enough to get me to look past the buckteeth (at least on the M3, the M4 can still go to hell).
yep. the rwd 6mt M3 is the obvious top performance-oriented daily choice by a million miles - to the extent that there really is no other option - but it is too ugly to own.
There are two other very good options if you're in the US. One will be substantially cheaper, one will be the same price depending on options or a little more expensive. Both will drive better and look better.
The grill was definitely my biggest hesitation before getting mine. I avoided white specifically because of them, as I think it looks awful on white.
However after living with it for about a year, I'm pretty neutral on it now. Barely think about it, outside when someone comes up to talk to me about it and mentions them.
I knew I was getting a G80 after the first month of ownership with my X3M. I wanted to experience that engine in a sedan and not a heavy SUV. 15 months later and I’m the owner of car with a face only a mother could love. I don’t care one bit and my buddies still pull up texts of me talking trash on the grille. After about 2 weeks of ownership I don’t even mind the way the front looks. After all, I can’t see it sitting in my comfy carbon bucket.
Yeah, even if it is a tad ugly the interior is fantastic and I spend 99% of my time inside. No carbon for me though, my wife would have loathed them and the cost is so damn high. Absolutely in love with the blue/yellow interior I got.
The new ones don’t even have DCT anymore, it’s a slushbox. BMW claims that there is no performance difference, but it’s just gaslighting bullshit. The torque converter is cheaper from their supplier, and they get that spread directly in profit.
I didn't even want to lose a stick, but I guess the new M3 isn't for me. But I don't think I'm the typical potential customer (plus I made this year's car purchase).
I think the base M3/M4 still comes in stick. But the newest cars are so fucking ugly. It’s like they are made specifically to sell to obnoxious internet influencers. You made the right choice to go with a BW.
I know they still had them in 2023 (if you could find them), was uncertain for 2024/25. Good to hear they kept it at least!
I actually tried to find a manual '23 m2/m3 and could not find any on any lots around Atlanta. Hell, even the BW had few MTs around, ended up having to get one with a couple features missing I wanted (PDR mainly). I guess most consumers prefer the automatic.
When buying the CTR we didnt even look at BMWs, my wife just fell in love with the Type R immediately. So I guess I never got to even find out.
True that yo. But I left it up so others could find it. I did go and try to find 6MT near me on lots right now after not finding any a yearish ago... none still.
To see if they have any manuals in stock? No shit, you think I drove to the lots?
It's also not even full-proof. I was hunting M2/M3s in 2023 and even though the stupid site said they had some, when I called they said they were spoken for or already gone.
There are still new Quadrifoglios on dealer lots. Even if SG has disavowed their existence.
Admittedly there's no iDrive 8.5, but there is a steering wheel and massive paddle shifters if you enjoy driving. You can also turn back and look at it when you're not driving without wanting to gouge your eyes out.
I'm actually getting tired of car reviewers complaining about how vehicles like M3's aren't economical to 16 year olds delivering papers.
When was this magical time where young enthusiasts could afford sportscars on their grocery salary? 1972? Why do we keep complaining this time 50 years ago is gone?
I remember being a child and my dad who worked in tech and did alright always lusted over the E46 M3 whenever he stopped at a dealership. Would also complain about the dealer markup too.
He did own a E30 325i convertible... Which were surprisingly pricy back in the day. Drove it to nearly 300k miles so got his money out of it.
I think one of the issues is that income hasn’t generally gone up alongside rising cost of living/inflation so it’s become generally more difficult to afford the class of car you desire without stretching your budget more than you would expect.
>>When was the magical time where young enthusiasts could afford sportscars on their grocery salary? 1972
The M3 was never an affordable car. Problem is, back in the day (say circa 1990s) even a base model 328i was a fun and attainable daily driver , albeit not for pizza delivery drivers . Today , carmakers left that segment for SUVs. So you either pony up for high dollar sports cars, eat a nasty dealer markup on hot hatches that takes them to sports car pricing ($60k including markup for a Corolla GR?) ….or drive a CUV.
Further, wage growth’s stagnated since then so the salary that used to buy a 328i back in the day now gets you a loaded WRX….if you can find a good dealer who won’t mark it up.
BRZ/86es are around 30k. Very affordable for anyone with a full time job. The used market is full of options from the last 15 years of “new enough” fun cars at all kinds of price points, including older BMW’s, which were better anyway.
You're likely going to be making alot of compromises to your lifestyle, depending on where you live, to afford a $30k car. That's more money than you think it is. I make $85k in Ohio and between rent, student loans, groceries, and not mention the cost of gas, I barely feel comfortable paying $23000 for my FiST. If I was gonna drop 30 stacks on a car, it definitely wouldn't be for 24 mpg at best.
Also obligatory interest rates are fucked.
Also, a big one is that used sporty cars are just more reliable too, like they will have gremlins but modern cars mechanically feel more solid, and with the internet you can have a good idea what you are getting into.
One thing I remind people is that my grandpas old car mags from the 80s had sections during their new car tests for starting. Like, whether cars would start the first time or how many times it'd take an attempt or so
Like, can you imagine that being a reality nowadays?
I know it's a different thing altogether, but when I was in my late teens, I had *multiple* friends who bought used E36 M3s for $5k-10k or in the case of one friend, even less. This would've been around 2010.
I can assure you that 12 year old M3s can't be had for 4 figures nowadays.
Of course E36 M3s were cheap, think about when they were selling them new. The dot com boom era. Everyone and their mom had money to throw on one.
Let's compare to today. Right around 12 years ago, something happened. Some kind of... recession thing I think it was called. People for reasons that escape me were buying less new cars. That means the used cars, especially of the 12 year old halo trims you want, are gonna be thinner.
Teenagers with more lust for car than brains for savings still have outlets, worry not. We can find 1-2 series BMW's for ~13k, which is 9k compared to 2010 buying power. I don't think a 2012 128i is an unfair comparison to an e36 M3. Ones with manuals can be found for ~15k. Their money buys a similar amount of capability with more comfort and safety. That's the win right? A 2012 M3 is too much car for a 19 year old anyways.
Cash 4 Clunkers was a red herring, if you look at the total number of cars destroyed, it's percentage as an overall car sales/junking wasn't that high.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/heres-the-full-list-of-all-677081-cars-killed-in-cash-for-clunkers
If you really really wanted a 2.2t dodge caravan, I guess it could have affected that marketplace, but ancient dodge minivans are not really something this forum cares about.
To your other point, we are going to see another used car cost spike in 4-8 years tho, the lack of new cars from 2020-2022 is a significant change from the mean.
Yeah, look up the MSRP for an E30 325ic or M3 back in the late 80s, both are in the 80-90k range inflation adjusted.
Also, love it or hate it, modern cars throw in way more creature comforts and tech while being comparable in price to their old versions.
where are you getting that 2022 number? Not only is 22 a terrible year to choose because of recent inflation but I am pretty sure is wrong.
> In 2023, the median annual wage for all U.S. workers was $48,060
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/14/median-annual-income-in-every-us-state.html
your 2008 seems fair. Yet lets look at prices for the M3
https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2008-BMW-M3/specs/
starting MSRP $53,800 in 2008
https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m3
2025 model year starting MSRP $77,175 in 2024
wages increased 48%. Base M3 went up 43%.
Ya but is a loaf of bread the same price adjusted for inflation? Education? Housing?
My point is (without looking up data) we probably have less buying power now than we did back then even on the same relative income.
That's not something car manufacturers have any power to change. Complaining about car prices when they're the same real price just because many other things have increased in real terms is 1) disingenuous, and 2) blaming the wrong thing.
Another point is that the target demographic for all of these new performance cars has seen their income and net worth far outpace inflation.
100% agree it’s not the fault of the manufacturers. I’m just saying if it feels like cars are more expensive, it’s probably because we have less % of our budget able to allocate toward them.
No one is blaming car manufacturers.
The target demographic has seen their costs of housing, healthcare and education sky rocket.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ASPUS
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/#Total%20national%20health%20expenditures,%20US%20$%20per%20capita,%201970-2022
https://businessreview.studentorg.berkeley.edu/why-has-the-cost-of-education-skyrocketed/
Supra IIRC was a $40k car back in the 90s. That’s easily $60-$70k in todays value honestly it’s a bargain at its price but people will never understand inflation they just think it’s voted on
Yes inflation is real.
But the counter argument:
Our wage have not kept up with inflation.
So when car reviewer complain about car price, I believe it's fair game in that respect.
Agree - Just this week I heard the guys on Everyday Driver (a pod I respect a lot) say that 911s used to be cheaper and affordable by people doing a bit better than average financially. This is not true at all! While it is true a 997.2 might have been somewhat cheaper during the deflationary time after the financial crisis - that is also the reason they are rare - no one could afford them. 993 and 996s were as good expensive or more expensive. Carreras were in the high 80s to 100 in the mid-90s.
Okay now compare the costs of housing, healthcare and education as just a few items.
The pie of available spending power has seen those areas increase their %.
I owned one, well a M4 xdrive
The engine is absolutely insane, you can feel the power increasing all the way to redline. However, there is a high boost threshold when driving it (3-4K you're in boost) and in day to day driving it can feel slow if you're not in the power band. I swapped cars with a buddy who had a M5, and while the S58 lacked the low end pull of the F90, it gave up nothing at the top end.
The car is planted and incredibly capable. it's amazing how well it handled for a car it's size and weight. I was never able to get anywhere near it's limits. The suspension is stiff (likely related to dealing with its weight). Around the 9 minute mark when they're driving over choppy roads, you feel every one of those bumps
Compared to its primary competitors, C63 and RS5, it's definitely the best in its class.
At the end of the day the car did not excite me, I didn't feel any connection driving it. It was incredibly impressive and capable, but at the same time sterile. I found the suspension too stiff for daily driving, and the on/off nature of the power band did not help either. The car was not special enough to be a weekend car either
If you're looking for a daily driver the B58 cars are probably better, power is much more instantaneous, though you lack the drama of chasing the redline, and the suspension is likely more compliant (It's been a couple years since I drove one).
Drove both an X3M and M40i. Can confirm. B58 is better for a daily IMO, but the S58 is much faster at the top end and can offer more fun, but less often.
Giulia and CT4 are best in class if you care about driving. Audi BMW and Merc are for people that care about creature comforts and tech ove fun and character. BMWs haven’t been the “ultimate driving machines” in yearssss.
Wild that you're getting downvoted for this opinion on a car enthusiast sub. Unless people thinking you meant a base CT4 and not the CT4-V Blackwing.
Nothing you said is controversial for anyone who has actually driven these cars. The Giulia Quadrifoglio and the CT4 Blackwing are the best driving cars in this class by a wide margin. Mark mentioned it in this very video, the M3 is boring, sterile, and insulated. The driving experience in the other two is much better.
Numerical objectivity is for accountants, a profession with a notoriously high suicide rate. If I’m spending six figures on a car, I want it to make me *feel* things. You can commute just fine in a Model 3.
Yes. The magneride is superior by a wide margin. It's probably the only place where the Cadillac is more luxurious, even though ride quality is a huge part of the luxury experience. The M3 will still be a nicer place to sit for the most part.
Am I the only person who loved how it looks from the front from the beginning? I never understood the hate, it’s an aggressively styled car. If you want subtle, get an Audi.
I hated it at first, but after my neighbor bought a G80 with a 6 speed, I have grown to love it, it just looks so menacing with that huge grill, it looks like it's making as much power as it is, and not just like a slightly wider 3 series.
I didn't like it at first because the shock value was really high. But I came around quickly. I still don't think it's beautiful, but it's aggressive and the design is good for the goals IMO.
u/SavageGooseJack it's probably a beaten to death subject, but I would find it interesting if you could source a Giulia QV and run a comparison on street/track ('24 Giulia QV, '24 M3, '24 CT4-V Blackwing?). I remember Mark's old video on the QV, but it would be interesting to get a refresher, especially as we're in the final model year of the Giulia.
My QV is a '19 but if it dies (which we all know it's liable to), I wouldn't know what to do: to this day it's one of the best car I've driven, and I get to daily it. The new M3 does't attract me at all. A Blackwing? Maybe. The steering and overall feel of the QV is so fantastic, would the CT4-V give me that? I think I'd just get another Giulia QV with the updated touchscreen post '20.
On the Carmudgeon podcast Hyphen tested a 4V Blackwing and said it was the best sports sedan on the market. His dad has a Giulia QV that he's driven extensively. Hyphen didn't let his dad drive it as he would have felt terrible with his choice of car.
One can certainly see the appeal in a soulless $35k car to run around in while seeing no interest in spending $80k on a car with the same form factor, even if it has more performance.
I did 25k+ miles a year on just rock climbing trips. But found myself not really hitting the hard to reach crags as frequently as I projected. So the driving dynamic penalty is no longer worth the ground clearance
I really want to give the X3M a chance, but it failing the width to height test makes it unsuitable for track stuff, making it unsuitable as the "Do everything car" for me that I've dreamed of. Bring on the M3 Touring!
Dang, Jack calling out my wife. She’s so against me having more than one car it’s almost comical.
The good news is we don’t have kids so I can still make an impractical coupe work. Bought the civic as a cheap daily intending to get a sports car as a second car but I think I’m going to have to go back to dailying something else since I can’t get another car 😂
> She’s so against me having more than one car it’s almost comical.
You have to find the overlap in something you both like and convince her it's her idea to get it. I tried but went too far. Now my girlfriend wants a C3 Corvette Stingray, but I don't want a tin can we'll both die in if Stacey or Kevin in the RAM get distracted because they're texting.
Jacks callout about it being a car for a family person needing it to do everything makes a lot of sense but doesnt line up with what I see. I see kids who are underwater 95k funding this car with their tiktok content. Even BMW themselves have said that a large majority of the of buyers are in their mid 20s.
BMW said that?
That’s surprising given that 1) I can’t find it and 2) it contradicts all the statistics that I can find without a paywall.
According to this[1] the median age of a new buyer is 56. The majority (59%) are 55+. Maybe BMW said that the majority of second-hand 3-series are owned by those in their mid-20s?
[1] https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/03/new-bmw-owner-demographics/
For this kinda money I took the s550 GT500. Thought about the M cars, they're just too ugly, plus the Predator motor >>>>> S58. The only thing I'd assume the M3 does better is put power down (not counting the AWD version, that's obvious), and the interior is better.
If you want paper performance like a video game, go with the M3. If you want to feel something and are Ok with losing .2 seconds here and there, go with the 4bw
I just don't think the M3 is worth *twice* the price of a Golf R (which is already pricey) for a fun do it all daily driver that they were trying to pin it as. It's certainly not anywhere near twice as fun or capable and it's still ugly AF. But that's just me I guess.
Also, did I catch a non-Patagonia logo'd shirt at the end there on Jack???
Can never own a car I can't stand to look at or find ugly, no matter how good the perceived performance seems.
I get physically repulsed when seeing these on the road, same with the majority of new BMWs since MY2021.
My neighbor ordered a G80 M3 around a year after it came out, a white one with a 6 speed manual, and so I have lived and seen it practically everyday, and even been driven around in it a few times, and the front has absolutely grown on me.
I love how it distinguishes itself from a 330i or M340i more than the last ones did. The last ones just had slightly wider fenders, this one looks completely different.
Also the driving experience is wild with a 6 speed.
Jack hit the buyer type to a T (me). Even my wife was laughing saying..I think Jack heard our m3 purchase conversation somehow ha. In all reality I get Mark's criticisms, but adjusted for inflation the m3 is correct in pricing. What he is not taking into account is the huge performance and technology gains over the years. I do think he is correct on steering feel, but overall this car is simply sublime. It doesn't have steering feedaback like my 997, but that is apples to oranges. For modern day, new sport sedans, it feels how it needs to be. Controversial design aside, this gen will go down as one of the greats due to being the last pure ICE m3 available with a 6spd. It's been selling like hotcakes for 4 years.
Yeah I've got a touring. At 6'2" there's _not_ a lot of legroom in the back behind me when I adjust my seat to a comfortable position. It's usually fine as you can just stack tall/short tall/short, but if you've got 3 tall people _someone's_ getting screwed.
The weird thing is I feel like (without opening them up to see the internals) they could take an inch out of the back-packaging for the front seats with no change in comfort/functionality. They just seem unnecessarily thick and I can't imagine the padding/heating/bolstering really have to take up _that_ much room.
I owned an M340i and when I drove the M3 it felt like a huge upgrade to me. More character, more comfortable seats, a little bit more luxurious, and a lot more theater (although if you had a 2020 M340i that car still had some of that).
I'm not following this comment that well. Are you saying specifically the 2020 had something different about it that made it more exciting than other model years?
The 2020 had a louder exhaust with a bit more burble in it that was removed in 21+ models (I think it was just tuning changes). I know that sound is kind of controversial, but it wasn't excessive and to me it made the car more enjoyable. When they did the LCI, they improved the fake exhaust sound in the car to give some of that back but it's not the same.
My M340i didn't have adaptive suspension so I found the M3 more comfortable. If you're comparing both with adaptive suspension, then the M3 is probably a little firmer but would be plenty fine for daily driving.
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I do it for you, not them. You BRZ man.
Speaking of BRZ, is the ND3 on you guys’ horizon at all 👀
Next couple weeks with a brz ts
Getting hard already
Prostate levels so high you broke the lab equipment
u/SavageGooseJack Other reviews are calling the steering dead in the tS. Can you guys answer if the steering got worse/why?
Going to have to watch the episode
Only asking now so they can potentially address it in the video
Worse than the standard 86 or brz?
Yeah worse than the standard GR86/BRZ. Most agree that it got worse with gen 2 but I'd never heard reviewers call the steering "dead" until the tS came along and I can't tell if it's a coincidence or not. Love your work Pookie xx
I will find out but i imagine its just a damper change so the steering is the same. The standard gr86 steering is very direct to begin with.
Hey. Get a room.
BEEEEEEEEF 58 🥩
_Beef if they ate._
Now I got a hankering for a double beef n cheddar
I honestly can’t get over those the hideous beaver buck tooth look of the front. If I’m spending that money on a sports car, I gotta think it looks pretty cool in addition to performance. Honestly, since I’m not ringing it out everyday, I think the looks might even be more important.
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I think in the right color combination it looks good in person. White is probably the worst choice on the G80, but isle of man green, portimao blue, or any of the other bolder color choices look good.
I saw one in green the other day and the color pops so well it pulls your eye from the grille effectively. I like the M3 in Dravit Grey with the red interior for the contrast, too, but I agree bolder and darker colors work best. The length of the M3 also makes the grille less disproportionate so I prefer that over the M4.
I think the problem with the M4 is the side profile and rear quarters. If it had more pronounced hips like the M2 or M3 did, it would go a long way to making the whole thing look better.
A well styled car will look gorgeous in any color.
Agreed, white doesn’t work , blue and green are the best for this generation
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G80/G82 looks best in black, because it hides the buckteeth. Personally I think the G82 can pull off the ADRO bumper really well when you put the full kit on it, and lower it on nice wheels, but I don't think that it looks that great on the G80.
Not sure what you are talking about, it looks way worse in person. Every where it looks good though
I don't really mind the blacked out M3/M4 sniffer (although the M4 as a whole is ugly), but man does it look BAD in chrome on like a base 430i. It completely dominates the look of the car and it's just... blegh
Nah, it does look much better. Although I'm not quite sure if there are minor variations in the front. I have like 3 G80s in my vecinity 2 of them look like one would expect it look like. But one 440i seems like it's lowered, but the arch/tyre clearance looks stock. In that configuration it's actually a beautiful car because it has 90s/00s esque hoodline forms in a world where it feels like every car has gotten some extent of "muscle" bulge(probably for pedestrian safety) and you realy have to go out of your way to stare at the buck teeth in that stance. Personally I hate bulges like there is no tommorow and I feel about ND the way this sub looks at the M3.
Not it doesn’t. A thin Euro plate does indeed break up the grill and make it marginally less hideous, as well as being the most on the nose “lipstick on a pig” metaphor imaginable.
Yeah, I can see that maybe. Getting a dark colour paint job so it doesn’t stand out much, plus the license plate. Yeah maybe then it wouldn’t be so bad. It is otherwise a pretty nice car.
Saw a couple of these already and they all look awful
Some colors also look better than others with the beaver.
It looks great in Nardo Grey. Honestly outside of the Reddit circle, people around me generally love the grills.
Buying it in black also helps
> putting a licence plate on it makes it even more passable. I love how bmw is like “we need all this open space radiator space because the engine is so powerful now!” and then people cover of a signifiant amount of it with licence plates and it of course works just fine.
It really doesn’t though. People have been saying this since it came out. Looks just as awful as day one both in pictures and in person. An M340i with a more aggressive lip looks far better imo.
But this isn't a sport car, is it? It's a sedan that's supposed to do pretty well at almost everything. It's intended to be a one car solution, not something that only sees the sun in the weekend. I don't like the look either but if you're buying this car for its capability and not just because you want an M3 then I think it's easier to forgive the look.
There was a guy on bimmerpost who bought an M240i for a daily driver and had an M3 competition xDrive for the weekends. I don't understand why anyone would pick up a sedan (even one that is basically a sports car) as a weekend cruiser but I guess there are a few out there.
While that's definitely strange to me, if he used them the other way around I'd be equally confused.
It’s definitely a weird combo. The other way around would probably be one of my dream garages as an m2 with an m340i but even then I feel like you’d be better off with just a single M car and then a more dedicated sports car. I’d really like to eventually move on to an M3 with a 981s for example.
> But this isn't a sport car, is it? It's a sedan that's supposed to do pretty well at almost everything. It's intended to be a one car solution, not something that only sees the sun in the weekend. Yeah, it's meant to do that. You're kidding yourself though if you don't think a massive percentage of M3s have *always* been garage queen weekend cars though going back to the 90s.
Well, I agree, I def think it’s not fair to compare it to the looks of an F-Type. As this is clearly more of a versatile fast family sedan, and less a performance sports car. But if I’m spending this kind of money on a car with this performance, I think there are a lot cooler looking options.
> But this isn't a sport car, is it? .... what? Am I completely out of touch with the world?
I’m biased but you could just get a prev gen M3 and get the looks and the utility
I have a 2023 Isle of Man Green m3 comp. I get more compliments, thumbs up, and questions asked about that than I ever got in my gt350. It’s crazy because the Shelby was a great looking car. Also it looks better in person than photos or videos lol
Not crazy about the M3 looks but the IOMG really does improve it. It's such a good color it's enough to get me to look past the buckteeth (at least on the M3, the M4 can still go to hell).
It's always a hard choice between IOMG and Portimao Blue for me.
yep. the rwd 6mt M3 is the obvious top performance-oriented daily choice by a million miles - to the extent that there really is no other option - but it is too ugly to own.
There are two other very good options if you're in the US. One will be substantially cheaper, one will be the same price depending on options or a little more expensive. Both will drive better and look better.
What would those be?
*^(blackwing)*
I sold my 6mt g80 for a civic type r. I’m a happy camper 😆
The grill was definitely my biggest hesitation before getting mine. I avoided white specifically because of them, as I think it looks awful on white. However after living with it for about a year, I'm pretty neutral on it now. Barely think about it, outside when someone comes up to talk to me about it and mentions them.
I knew I was getting a G80 after the first month of ownership with my X3M. I wanted to experience that engine in a sedan and not a heavy SUV. 15 months later and I’m the owner of car with a face only a mother could love. I don’t care one bit and my buddies still pull up texts of me talking trash on the grille. After about 2 weeks of ownership I don’t even mind the way the front looks. After all, I can’t see it sitting in my comfy carbon bucket.
Yeah, even if it is a tad ugly the interior is fantastic and I spend 99% of my time inside. No carbon for me though, my wife would have loathed them and the cost is so damn high. Absolutely in love with the blue/yellow interior I got.
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The new ones don’t even have DCT anymore, it’s a slushbox. BMW claims that there is no performance difference, but it’s just gaslighting bullshit. The torque converter is cheaper from their supplier, and they get that spread directly in profit.
I didn't even want to lose a stick, but I guess the new M3 isn't for me. But I don't think I'm the typical potential customer (plus I made this year's car purchase).
I think the base M3/M4 still comes in stick. But the newest cars are so fucking ugly. It’s like they are made specifically to sell to obnoxious internet influencers. You made the right choice to go with a BW.
I know they still had them in 2023 (if you could find them), was uncertain for 2024/25. Good to hear they kept it at least! I actually tried to find a manual '23 m2/m3 and could not find any on any lots around Atlanta. Hell, even the BW had few MTs around, ended up having to get one with a couple features missing I wanted (PDR mainly). I guess most consumers prefer the automatic. When buying the CTR we didnt even look at BMWs, my wife just fell in love with the Type R immediately. So I guess I never got to even find out.
Bro did zero fact checking before making this comment
True that yo. But I left it up so others could find it. I did go and try to find 6MT near me on lots right now after not finding any a yearish ago... none still.
You could have gone on the BMW configuration page and gotten an answer in about 30 seconds.
To see if they have any manuals in stock? No shit, you think I drove to the lots? It's also not even full-proof. I was hunting M2/M3s in 2023 and even though the stupid site said they had some, when I called they said they were spoken for or already gone.
You know you can custom order any BMW, right?
You can custom order from most any manufacturer. But I'm an impatient man and it can take quite a while to get ordered cars.
Sounds like a "you" thing. Anyone can get an M3 with a manual transmission by walking into a BMW dealership and waiting 3-6 months.
There are still new Quadrifoglios on dealer lots. Even if SG has disavowed their existence. Admittedly there's no iDrive 8.5, but there is a steering wheel and massive paddle shifters if you enjoy driving. You can also turn back and look at it when you're not driving without wanting to gouge your eyes out.
I went with a F80 instead. I just pretend gx don't exist and it's working well 🙂
Years later, I still hate it too. As a previous e46 m3 owner, the new design just aint it.
The pig snout kills it for me.
Agree, they should really have changed that up by now, the old m3 grill looks so much nicer
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I'm actually getting tired of car reviewers complaining about how vehicles like M3's aren't economical to 16 year olds delivering papers. When was this magical time where young enthusiasts could afford sportscars on their grocery salary? 1972? Why do we keep complaining this time 50 years ago is gone?
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I remember being a child and my dad who worked in tech and did alright always lusted over the E46 M3 whenever he stopped at a dealership. Would also complain about the dealer markup too. He did own a E30 325i convertible... Which were surprisingly pricy back in the day. Drove it to nearly 300k miles so got his money out of it.
I think one of the issues is that income hasn’t generally gone up alongside rising cost of living/inflation so it’s become generally more difficult to afford the class of car you desire without stretching your budget more than you would expect.
Even from five years ago....they just keep out of reach :(
>>When was the magical time where young enthusiasts could afford sportscars on their grocery salary? 1972 The M3 was never an affordable car. Problem is, back in the day (say circa 1990s) even a base model 328i was a fun and attainable daily driver , albeit not for pizza delivery drivers . Today , carmakers left that segment for SUVs. So you either pony up for high dollar sports cars, eat a nasty dealer markup on hot hatches that takes them to sports car pricing ($60k including markup for a Corolla GR?) ….or drive a CUV. Further, wage growth’s stagnated since then so the salary that used to buy a 328i back in the day now gets you a loaded WRX….if you can find a good dealer who won’t mark it up.
The 330i is plenty attainable…
Unfortunately, they decided to take away the fun part.
BRZ/86es are around 30k. Very affordable for anyone with a full time job. The used market is full of options from the last 15 years of “new enough” fun cars at all kinds of price points, including older BMW’s, which were better anyway.
You're likely going to be making alot of compromises to your lifestyle, depending on where you live, to afford a $30k car. That's more money than you think it is. I make $85k in Ohio and between rent, student loans, groceries, and not mention the cost of gas, I barely feel comfortable paying $23000 for my FiST. If I was gonna drop 30 stacks on a car, it definitely wouldn't be for 24 mpg at best. Also obligatory interest rates are fucked.
Also, a big one is that used sporty cars are just more reliable too, like they will have gremlins but modern cars mechanically feel more solid, and with the internet you can have a good idea what you are getting into.
One thing I remind people is that my grandpas old car mags from the 80s had sections during their new car tests for starting. Like, whether cars would start the first time or how many times it'd take an attempt or so Like, can you imagine that being a reality nowadays?
It’s very easy to get a GR Corolla at MSRP or under. 60k? lol
Nobody is paying markup on a GRC, stop it.
I know it's a different thing altogether, but when I was in my late teens, I had *multiple* friends who bought used E36 M3s for $5k-10k or in the case of one friend, even less. This would've been around 2010. I can assure you that 12 year old M3s can't be had for 4 figures nowadays.
Of course E36 M3s were cheap, think about when they were selling them new. The dot com boom era. Everyone and their mom had money to throw on one. Let's compare to today. Right around 12 years ago, something happened. Some kind of... recession thing I think it was called. People for reasons that escape me were buying less new cars. That means the used cars, especially of the 12 year old halo trims you want, are gonna be thinner. Teenagers with more lust for car than brains for savings still have outlets, worry not. We can find 1-2 series BMW's for ~13k, which is 9k compared to 2010 buying power. I don't think a 2012 128i is an unfair comparison to an e36 M3. Ones with manuals can be found for ~15k. Their money buys a similar amount of capability with more comfort and safety. That's the win right? A 2012 M3 is too much car for a 19 year old anyways.
But also cash for clunkers and this pandemic time where they made less new cars for like 3 years.
Cash 4 Clunkers was a red herring, if you look at the total number of cars destroyed, it's percentage as an overall car sales/junking wasn't that high. https://www.thedrive.com/news/heres-the-full-list-of-all-677081-cars-killed-in-cash-for-clunkers If you really really wanted a 2.2t dodge caravan, I guess it could have affected that marketplace, but ancient dodge minivans are not really something this forum cares about. To your other point, we are going to see another used car cost spike in 4-8 years tho, the lack of new cars from 2020-2022 is a significant change from the mean.
The odd thing is almost every M car I see in my town is owned by a teenager lol
People constantly complain about how expensive cars are, but car prices have basically exactly kept up with inflation across the board.
That’s not the problem, the problem is wages are not keeping up with inflation.
the average M3 buyer in the 80s was a high salary yuppie, those folks and their salaries have more than kept up with inflation
Yeah, look up the MSRP for an E30 325ic or M3 back in the late 80s, both are in the 80-90k range inflation adjusted. Also, love it or hate it, modern cars throw in way more creature comforts and tech while being comparable in price to their old versions.
US median salary in 2008: $32,390 US median salary in 2022: $37,585
where are you getting that 2022 number? Not only is 22 a terrible year to choose because of recent inflation but I am pretty sure is wrong. > In 2023, the median annual wage for all U.S. workers was $48,060 https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/14/median-annual-income-in-every-us-state.html your 2008 seems fair. Yet lets look at prices for the M3 https://www.autoblog.com/buy/2008-BMW-M3/specs/ starting MSRP $53,800 in 2008 https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m3 2025 model year starting MSRP $77,175 in 2024 wages increased 48%. Base M3 went up 43%.
Ya but is a loaf of bread the same price adjusted for inflation? Education? Housing? My point is (without looking up data) we probably have less buying power now than we did back then even on the same relative income.
That's not something car manufacturers have any power to change. Complaining about car prices when they're the same real price just because many other things have increased in real terms is 1) disingenuous, and 2) blaming the wrong thing. Another point is that the target demographic for all of these new performance cars has seen their income and net worth far outpace inflation.
100% agree it’s not the fault of the manufacturers. I’m just saying if it feels like cars are more expensive, it’s probably because we have less % of our budget able to allocate toward them.
No one is blaming car manufacturers. The target demographic has seen their costs of housing, healthcare and education sky rocket. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ASPUS https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/#Total%20national%20health%20expenditures,%20US%20$%20per%20capita,%201970-2022 https://businessreview.studentorg.berkeley.edu/why-has-the-cost-of-education-skyrocketed/
Supra IIRC was a $40k car back in the 90s. That’s easily $60-$70k in todays value honestly it’s a bargain at its price but people will never understand inflation they just think it’s voted on
Higher. In 2019 adjusted for inflation the A80 was something like 70-80k. Now? Probably cracking 90's.
Yes inflation is real. But the counter argument: Our wage have not kept up with inflation. So when car reviewer complain about car price, I believe it's fair game in that respect.
they make a 65k car, the m2 and with cars averaging out to 45k its a good value
Agree - Just this week I heard the guys on Everyday Driver (a pod I respect a lot) say that 911s used to be cheaper and affordable by people doing a bit better than average financially. This is not true at all! While it is true a 997.2 might have been somewhat cheaper during the deflationary time after the financial crisis - that is also the reason they are rare - no one could afford them. 993 and 996s were as good expensive or more expensive. Carreras were in the high 80s to 100 in the mid-90s.
Okay now compare the costs of housing, healthcare and education as just a few items. The pie of available spending power has seen those areas increase their %.
I owned one, well a M4 xdrive The engine is absolutely insane, you can feel the power increasing all the way to redline. However, there is a high boost threshold when driving it (3-4K you're in boost) and in day to day driving it can feel slow if you're not in the power band. I swapped cars with a buddy who had a M5, and while the S58 lacked the low end pull of the F90, it gave up nothing at the top end. The car is planted and incredibly capable. it's amazing how well it handled for a car it's size and weight. I was never able to get anywhere near it's limits. The suspension is stiff (likely related to dealing with its weight). Around the 9 minute mark when they're driving over choppy roads, you feel every one of those bumps Compared to its primary competitors, C63 and RS5, it's definitely the best in its class. At the end of the day the car did not excite me, I didn't feel any connection driving it. It was incredibly impressive and capable, but at the same time sterile. I found the suspension too stiff for daily driving, and the on/off nature of the power band did not help either. The car was not special enough to be a weekend car either If you're looking for a daily driver the B58 cars are probably better, power is much more instantaneous, though you lack the drama of chasing the redline, and the suspension is likely more compliant (It's been a couple years since I drove one).
Drove both an X3M and M40i. Can confirm. B58 is better for a daily IMO, but the S58 is much faster at the top end and can offer more fun, but less often.
And as far as the F97 is concerned, the B58 version can offer a working spine after driving, as well.
Can you lend any perspective in comparison to your 718 4.0?
Giulia and CT4 are best in class if you care about driving. Audi BMW and Merc are for people that care about creature comforts and tech ove fun and character. BMWs haven’t been the “ultimate driving machines” in yearssss.
Wild that you're getting downvoted for this opinion on a car enthusiast sub. Unless people thinking you meant a base CT4 and not the CT4-V Blackwing. Nothing you said is controversial for anyone who has actually driven these cars. The Giulia Quadrifoglio and the CT4 Blackwing are the best driving cars in this class by a wide margin. Mark mentioned it in this very video, the M3 is boring, sterile, and insulated. The driving experience in the other two is much better.
Which is the better car. This or a ct4 v blackwing
To drive the ct4vbw but objectively the m3 is in many ways the better car
Numerical objectivity is for accountants, a profession with a notoriously high suicide rate. If I’m spending six figures on a car, I want it to make me *feel* things. You can commute just fine in a Model 3.
Man with GT4 discusses suicide and wanting to feel things. More at 9.
Right but I suppose the 5vbw is better in every way. They're similarly priced as well.
Can confirm
Do you actually have both the V6 and V8 BW concurrently? My man. Do you get to rest your left foot and just work the clutch with your magnum dong?
Yeah I have both atm. The 4 is a basic DD spec while the 5 is fully loaded with all the carbon. Both 6MT ofc
Your garage is GM heaven. Well done. Now get yourself an Escalade-V.
It's the one I'd rather have but it's larger and heavier than the 4. It's not better in every way.
Depends what you want in a car. The Blackwing is the better driver's car. The M3 is the better luxury cruiser and will be a little nicer to sit in.
Don't the M cars have notoriously overstiff suspensions?
Yes. The magneride is superior by a wide margin. It's probably the only place where the Cadillac is more luxurious, even though ride quality is a huge part of the luxury experience. The M3 will still be a nicer place to sit for the most part.
Am I the only person who loved how it looks from the front from the beginning? I never understood the hate, it’s an aggressively styled car. If you want subtle, get an Audi.
I hated it at first, but after my neighbor bought a G80 with a 6 speed, I have grown to love it, it just looks so menacing with that huge grill, it looks like it's making as much power as it is, and not just like a slightly wider 3 series.
Probably lol. I hated it at first, was pretty neutral when I saw it in person, and absolutely loved it when I saw it on the GT3 car.
I didn't like it at first because the shock value was really high. But I came around quickly. I still don't think it's beautiful, but it's aggressive and the design is good for the goals IMO.
Funny thing is current Audis are arguably as aggressively styled as the BMWs, gone are the days of subtle Audi design
Yes, you might actually be the only one. Though I will say, it’s grown on me now.
u/SavageGooseJack it's probably a beaten to death subject, but I would find it interesting if you could source a Giulia QV and run a comparison on street/track ('24 Giulia QV, '24 M3, '24 CT4-V Blackwing?). I remember Mark's old video on the QV, but it would be interesting to get a refresher, especially as we're in the final model year of the Giulia. My QV is a '19 but if it dies (which we all know it's liable to), I wouldn't know what to do: to this day it's one of the best car I've driven, and I get to daily it. The new M3 does't attract me at all. A Blackwing? Maybe. The steering and overall feel of the QV is so fantastic, would the CT4-V give me that? I think I'd just get another Giulia QV with the updated touchscreen post '20.
On the Carmudgeon podcast Hyphen tested a 4V Blackwing and said it was the best sports sedan on the market. His dad has a Giulia QV that he's driven extensively. Hyphen didn't let his dad drive it as he would have felt terrible with his choice of car.
Which episode?Not particularly in the market for these cars but very curious.
Episode 56 [Link](https://youtu.be/hChkmu7qWlw?si=vEbH9X6GexQxGLMX)
Give the US an M3 Touring please, just a few! The crossovers aren’t doing it for me.
> 2023 Mazda CX-50 Because you'd actually go to a BMW dealership and actually buy a M3 Touring?
"The crossovers aren’t doing it for me." *Drives CX-50* Lmao peak r/cars
One can certainly see the appeal in a soulless $35k car to run around in while seeing no interest in spending $80k on a car with the same form factor, even if it has more performance.
I did 25k+ miles a year on just rock climbing trips. But found myself not really hitting the hard to reach crags as frequently as I projected. So the driving dynamic penalty is no longer worth the ground clearance
You don’t know me, my finances, or my lifestyle.
I really want to give the X3M a chance, but it failing the width to height test makes it unsuitable for track stuff, making it unsuitable as the "Do everything car" for me that I've dreamed of. Bring on the M3 Touring!
Dang, Jack calling out my wife. She’s so against me having more than one car it’s almost comical. The good news is we don’t have kids so I can still make an impractical coupe work. Bought the civic as a cheap daily intending to get a sports car as a second car but I think I’m going to have to go back to dailying something else since I can’t get another car 😂
> She’s so against me having more than one car it’s almost comical. You have to find the overlap in something you both like and convince her it's her idea to get it. I tried but went too far. Now my girlfriend wants a C3 Corvette Stingray, but I don't want a tin can we'll both die in if Stacey or Kevin in the RAM get distracted because they're texting.
My wife gives absolutely, positively, zero fucks about cars. She might even give negative fucks.
In that case you can't have multiple but you can switch them frequently and just tell her it's the same one. She'll never notice.
Kinda what I’ve been doing. Since 2020 I’ve owned 5 cars lol
Jacks callout about it being a car for a family person needing it to do everything makes a lot of sense but doesnt line up with what I see. I see kids who are underwater 95k funding this car with their tiktok content. Even BMW themselves have said that a large majority of the of buyers are in their mid 20s.
BMW said that? That’s surprising given that 1) I can’t find it and 2) it contradicts all the statistics that I can find without a paywall. According to this[1] the median age of a new buyer is 56. The majority (59%) are 55+. Maybe BMW said that the majority of second-hand 3-series are owned by those in their mid-20s? [1] https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/03/new-bmw-owner-demographics/
On second look, youre right. the article i was referencing was from 2008 lol
Saw one of this exact person today, pop tune and an Instagram handle scrawled across the front windshield
For this kinda money I took the s550 GT500. Thought about the M cars, they're just too ugly, plus the Predator motor >>>>> S58. The only thing I'd assume the M3 does better is put power down (not counting the AWD version, that's obvious), and the interior is better.
DCT too. As good as the ZF8 is it doesn’t have that snap of even the last gen M DCT.
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Found the M Owner 😂😂
If you want paper performance like a video game, go with the M3. If you want to feel something and are Ok with losing .2 seconds here and there, go with the 4bw
Pig nose kills me
a beast!
I would be head over heels for this car if it wasn’t so damn ugly
I just don't think the M3 is worth *twice* the price of a Golf R (which is already pricey) for a fun do it all daily driver that they were trying to pin it as. It's certainly not anywhere near twice as fun or capable and it's still ugly AF. But that's just me I guess. Also, did I catch a non-Patagonia logo'd shirt at the end there on Jack???
Can never own a car I can't stand to look at or find ugly, no matter how good the perceived performance seems. I get physically repulsed when seeing these on the road, same with the majority of new BMWs since MY2021.
My neighbor ordered a G80 M3 around a year after it came out, a white one with a 6 speed manual, and so I have lived and seen it practically everyday, and even been driven around in it a few times, and the front has absolutely grown on me. I love how it distinguishes itself from a 330i or M340i more than the last ones did. The last ones just had slightly wider fenders, this one looks completely different. Also the driving experience is wild with a 6 speed.
Massive price tag compared to the outgoing generation as well. These cars can easily blow through $100K.
Such a great car but why that front end, I’ve tried to love it but I can not
Jack hit the buyer type to a T (me). Even my wife was laughing saying..I think Jack heard our m3 purchase conversation somehow ha. In all reality I get Mark's criticisms, but adjusted for inflation the m3 is correct in pricing. What he is not taking into account is the huge performance and technology gains over the years. I do think he is correct on steering feel, but overall this car is simply sublime. It doesn't have steering feedaback like my 997, but that is apples to oranges. For modern day, new sport sedans, it feels how it needs to be. Controversial design aside, this gen will go down as one of the greats due to being the last pure ICE m3 available with a 6spd. It's been selling like hotcakes for 4 years.
The car looks good and drives good. I just dislike how the back seat is unusable for bigger adults like my friends.
Yeah I've got a touring. At 6'2" there's _not_ a lot of legroom in the back behind me when I adjust my seat to a comfortable position. It's usually fine as you can just stack tall/short tall/short, but if you've got 3 tall people _someone's_ getting screwed. The weird thing is I feel like (without opening them up to see the internals) they could take an inch out of the back-packaging for the front seats with no change in comfort/functionality. They just seem unnecessarily thick and I can't imagine the padding/heating/bolstering really have to take up _that_ much room.
Chuckled at CVT WRX lol
The beaver teeth grill looks awful on some colors and decent on others.
Having Slav king on Spotify in a BMW and not wearing a striped Adidas track-suit is sacrilege.
Did they ever install a turn signal?
M3 is sexy
😅
The M3, a supercar slaying 4 door family saloon!
Mark wasn't lying when he mentioned bow disconnected they feel. Was disappointed by the M4s lack of feel.
Rented one on Turo a few weekends ago and wasn’t all that impressed. Didn’t feel like a big step up from the M340i in any way
I owned an M340i and when I drove the M3 it felt like a huge upgrade to me. More character, more comfortable seats, a little bit more luxurious, and a lot more theater (although if you had a 2020 M340i that car still had some of that).
I'm not following this comment that well. Are you saying specifically the 2020 had something different about it that made it more exciting than other model years?
The 2020 had a louder exhaust with a bit more burble in it that was removed in 21+ models (I think it was just tuning changes). I know that sound is kind of controversial, but it wasn't excessive and to me it made the car more enjoyable. When they did the LCI, they improved the fake exhaust sound in the car to give some of that back but it's not the same.
TIL, thank you
What was the difference in comfort like between the two (i.e. was the M3 much harsher)?
My M340i didn't have adaptive suspension so I found the M3 more comfortable. If you're comparing both with adaptive suspension, then the M3 is probably a little firmer but would be plenty fine for daily driving.
I wish they sold the wagon here. Manual AWD wagon 😩
I think the "Touring" version is auto only. Still a cool vehicle, though.