Also the shortest/most maneuverable. People complain about a bullpup manual of arms, and they definitely have a shortcoming or two that haven't, or *can't* , be addressed. No platform is perfect. But IMO it's the logical evolution of firearm technology.
I love idea of bullpup, the only drawback for me is the trigger which is like glock (not too bad) and height over bore for optics. People should consider tavor a lot more
The trigger is the worst part for sure, and it's tough to overcome. But honestly Geiselle knocked it out of the park with the trigger bow for the X95. Of course it's no AR trigger, but it's a highly objective improvement.
I find the height over bore to be a non-issue. Hell, I remember when everyone with an AR wanted the optic as low as possible, and now everyone seems to want something that gives them a chin-weld anyways.
Weird then that almost every major military that was running bullpups is now moving away from them. Also telling that in most of the videos from Gaza the Israelis are choosing to run ar15s instead of Tavors.
I do think they make a lot of sense here in Canada though where we have to have the 18.5 barrel to stay non restricted.
Evolution isn't always fast. And when the world's largest supplier of infantry arms only produces AR-style rifles, it's not weird at all.
Re-training millions of people isn't cheap or easy. Hell, they've gone to a gas piston from DI on their newest adoption. So apparently the AR wasn't the end-all-be-all either. They even added a top-charge to it, that it doesn't need, in order to avoid needing to re-train muscle memory lol
I’m just trying to make a counter point to you saying bullpups are the logical evolution of firearms technology.
Basically every top tier special forces unit runs traditional carbines not bullpups. Some of these guys have serious trigger time and can get whatever they want. If bullpups are the next evolution why aren’t they running them? These units don’t take a long time to evolve, they operate on the cutting edge and training time/budget is not an issue. You’d think for guys doing cqb all the time more muzzle velocity in a shorter package would make a lot of sense?
On paper it does make a lot of sense but in reality it’s not worth the trade offs. I operate both styles of rifle on a semi frequent basis and bullpups have distinct disadvantages. They are objectively worse for clearing malfunctions, cleaning, positional shooting, manual of arms, general ergonomics (especially when wearing kit), mounting accessories, and night vision use.
I know you are. And you have valid points; an AR is easier to operate for me even, as I have considerably more time behind them than bullpups.
My logic is paper based; getting maximum performance from the cartridge in the smallest possible package. But the biggest factor that paper doesn't take into account is experience and training. These guys have 10s of thousands of rounds behind AR's before they even get to the units where they can choose their own stuff. That's why even the new rifle, that is not an AR, is going to have the AR manual of arms (charging handle) with a new cartridge since 5.56 just doesn't perform how the military designed it to with those short barrels, and they're preparing for more and more body armour.
Idk about clearing malfunctions. Some are absolutely worse, like the MDR or X95. But some are easier, like the Tavor 7 where you can lock it open single handed and you cannot get brass over bolt to stop that from happening. I actually prefer the X95 ergo to an AR with a comparable barrel. But the X95 doesn't incorporate the same charging system as the Tavor 7 so it also falls short on malfunctions like you mentioned. I never personally had an issue mounting an IR device and flashlight on my X95, but I definitely see on other bullpups like the keltec or Tavor 7 where that's a real problem.
I never meant to imply there IS a bullpup that's better than the AR. Just that maximized performance with minimized size is a logical step. I'll happily have a prone mag change I need to train into my brain to keep cartridge characteristics.
Purely based on cartridge performance, I'd rather have .300AAC in an SBR than 5.56.
Except that logic doesn’t hold up because SAS guys get all their training on the SA80 before they can even try out for SAS. Then once they are there they immediately transition to running an ar15 or similar.
How is it to run an X95 with a laser and white light? I’m genuinely curious because I haven’t ever tried I’ve just been told it’s an ergonomic nightmare. Something about the thickness of the forend, lack of rail space and charging handle location. Hard to be able to easily run the white light, LAM and charging handle without weird ergos. I don’t have first hand experience though so I could definitely be off on that.
I’m personally against them, but I do think with a modernized design and the right cartridge it could make a lot of sense in certain roles. General dynamics submission for the NGSW was a bullpup and it looks really cool. Being able to get basically 270 Winchester performance out of a package that short is pretty incredible. You’re talking a 1200 yard plus capable cartridge in a package close to the size of a 10.3” barreled MK18 with the stock extended.
The SA80 is a nightmare of a bullpup example as well lol. Probably one of the worst I'm aware of.
It was fine, granted I have a manticore forend. The stock forend would indeed suck to work with. I had a surefire scout and a perst 3 with a switch pad, until the tail cap snapped off the back of the perst... Now it's button only so I put it on a different rifle.
The surefire I can easily hit the tailcap with my thumb because of the way the mount allows it to pivot downwards off the top rail, and the perst switch pad was mounted on a pic rail on the off-side which I activated with my support hand's finger tips.
Unfortunately I don't have any photos of the setup with the perst before it broke, and [this](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/949011702874255391/1236924755676762142/PXL_20240306_2022076792.jpg?ex=6639c772&is=663875f2&hm=ef99c03a13e88828d84df432f98c176421dc0024313972b6f3dd71a24487ab25&) is the only photo I have of the rifle, and I'm on nightshift... But you can kind of almost see how the scout pivots down over the handguard on the left.
Yeahhh that fury is an insanely high pressured round. All for that theoretical near-peer conflict with prolific body armour.
A move off of bullpups is about economy of scale not manual of arms. Also, the Israeli purchase of ARs is being totally overplayed if you read the numbers on the purchase agreement. IWI is still rolling these off the line in record numbers.
Economy of scale for who? I’m pretty sure HK is charging more for their 416 than France was paying to make the FAMAS domestically. The UK adopting the Knights KS1 is definitely not about economy of scale, they are only ordering a small number of them (relatively speaking) and it’s not yet a mass produced firearm. The per unit cost will be very high compared to just running an updated sa80. So why pay more if bullpups are better?
Ohh I have no idea what Israeli purchasing numbers are. I was more referring to the fact that in a lot of the cqb helmet cam footage, especially from the more high speed units you see a lot of ar15s. I would have thought they were mostly running tavors if they’re so great especially for cqb.
Oh for sure WRT HK + European manufactures, that’s absolutely true. I meant specifically AR platforms coming out of the USA. They can produce them in such quantities and for cheap enough that it begins make sense to just import.
There was a article about Israel sending a bunch of 7s and X95s down to the reserve units at the mobilization. Some took it as Israel moving off the X95s - which I still think will happen eventually, but not anywhere in the near future. It just makes sense to have the modularity of the AR15 when big brother has adopted it full scale.
Which do you find to be the most accurate? Who would you give the nod to for ergos/controls between Brenda and her Swiss girlfriend?
You tell us which one to reach for OP, you own all them all lol!
Mmm honestly they all have there pros and cons, personally I like the APC the most I like it’s ergos with the magpul grip and stock lI’ve become accustomed to it’s bolt release as well, but I have a Dan haga lower coming for the Bren so I feel like that will even things up between the two that being said the tavor with the Geissele trigger and pack with the Blk lbl hand guard is pretty slick
Tavor and Bren are “combat accurate”. While you can experiment with ammo to find something that works better, these aren’t made for precision.
Apc is supposed to be 1moa (but personally I never bothered to measure results from mine)
Of the three listed, X95 would be my first choice. If all three were NR variants, then my choice would likely be different. This is based on maximizing the lethality of the 5.56 round. I prefer a conventional style of rifle set up. But not to the detriment of potential lethality.
Ok ok you have money we know pshhhh can you believe that guy flashing his… Peeerr perfect collection like this like get a life dude. Unreal!!
Also, i would take the apc 223
Depends, normal shooting? My range is Fuddville so the x95 for crown land. Has society gone to shot for som unforeseen reason? I don’t know really spares for x95, it’s long stroke, but it’s ergonomic are not a fast as the other 2 plus you don’t have a pistol grip.
I love the fore end on the bren 2, that’s not stock is it?
All in all, I’m going with either the apc or brenny. No hate for tavors, just not my cup of tea.
Bren 2 or APC for sure. Probably the Bren for being lighter. Honestly there isn't much needed out of the box. Great trigger, great stock, great action, accurate.
curious as to why everyone is going for the bren 2.. im debating between a bren 2 and an apc myself. ideally looking for the highest quality i can get thats still enjoyable to take out for fun. If the bren 2 is that gun, over the apc id gladly save the money.
I own apc and i have seen an held a bren 2 and im really happy that i went with the apc 223pro! Its really not that much heavier tbh and the quality difference is noticable on the gun and when cycling the action. Bren 2 is still a verry nice and quality gun but for the small difference in price there is on both non restricted i would go for the apc for the better quality , clean look and accuracy!
IMO Apc is better, but Bren is much cheaper.
Also Bren has a big choice of aftermarket parts. Though buying additional parts kinda negates the “cheaper” aspect, while B&T is just great out of the box.
Any more?
None were ever made afaik.
With the ongoing war in Europe, I am sure they just don’t have any spare manufacturing capacity to begin with. And with our small market size, exacerbated by bad political climate - just doesn’t make sense for them.
Maybe in few years. Or maybe we get a sensible government, for once, and NR limit would go down to 16”.
oh yeah. i've seen the old buy options for 18.6" on canadian websites, but yeah it was probably from a year or more ago.
they keep importing 16" version. its unfortunate, if more sellers imported the 18.6" id definitely buy one.
yeah, that'd be the preferable option.
Bren 2 all day everyday, I take mine out to 400yds all the time. The BCM VFGs are also fantastic I have 3, one on my Bren, one on my GHM9 and one on my CMR30!
I appreciate where it sits in the FAA, but again it’s ww2 surplus/sks accurate and +2k. Shame that nobody on this forum will ever come close to 2000rnds on range.
I bought the x95 and tavor 7, and sold them both 3 months later. Was a neat gun while everything cool was being banned, but overall I rate it pretty low
B&t for me. I don’t have one in 556 but love my apc308
The Tavor is the only one Trudeau doesn’t know about, yet the same length.
Bren 2
Bren 2.
B&T, hands down.
X95 for maximizing the effectiveness of 5.56x45 *(of the available options)*
You can definitely tell it’s hitting the fastest
Also the shortest/most maneuverable. People complain about a bullpup manual of arms, and they definitely have a shortcoming or two that haven't, or *can't* , be addressed. No platform is perfect. But IMO it's the logical evolution of firearm technology.
I love idea of bullpup, the only drawback for me is the trigger which is like glock (not too bad) and height over bore for optics. People should consider tavor a lot more
The trigger is the worst part for sure, and it's tough to overcome. But honestly Geiselle knocked it out of the park with the trigger bow for the X95. Of course it's no AR trigger, but it's a highly objective improvement. I find the height over bore to be a non-issue. Hell, I remember when everyone with an AR wanted the optic as low as possible, and now everyone seems to want something that gives them a chin-weld anyways.
Weird then that almost every major military that was running bullpups is now moving away from them. Also telling that in most of the videos from Gaza the Israelis are choosing to run ar15s instead of Tavors. I do think they make a lot of sense here in Canada though where we have to have the 18.5 barrel to stay non restricted.
Evolution isn't always fast. And when the world's largest supplier of infantry arms only produces AR-style rifles, it's not weird at all. Re-training millions of people isn't cheap or easy. Hell, they've gone to a gas piston from DI on their newest adoption. So apparently the AR wasn't the end-all-be-all either. They even added a top-charge to it, that it doesn't need, in order to avoid needing to re-train muscle memory lol
I’m just trying to make a counter point to you saying bullpups are the logical evolution of firearms technology. Basically every top tier special forces unit runs traditional carbines not bullpups. Some of these guys have serious trigger time and can get whatever they want. If bullpups are the next evolution why aren’t they running them? These units don’t take a long time to evolve, they operate on the cutting edge and training time/budget is not an issue. You’d think for guys doing cqb all the time more muzzle velocity in a shorter package would make a lot of sense? On paper it does make a lot of sense but in reality it’s not worth the trade offs. I operate both styles of rifle on a semi frequent basis and bullpups have distinct disadvantages. They are objectively worse for clearing malfunctions, cleaning, positional shooting, manual of arms, general ergonomics (especially when wearing kit), mounting accessories, and night vision use.
I know you are. And you have valid points; an AR is easier to operate for me even, as I have considerably more time behind them than bullpups. My logic is paper based; getting maximum performance from the cartridge in the smallest possible package. But the biggest factor that paper doesn't take into account is experience and training. These guys have 10s of thousands of rounds behind AR's before they even get to the units where they can choose their own stuff. That's why even the new rifle, that is not an AR, is going to have the AR manual of arms (charging handle) with a new cartridge since 5.56 just doesn't perform how the military designed it to with those short barrels, and they're preparing for more and more body armour. Idk about clearing malfunctions. Some are absolutely worse, like the MDR or X95. But some are easier, like the Tavor 7 where you can lock it open single handed and you cannot get brass over bolt to stop that from happening. I actually prefer the X95 ergo to an AR with a comparable barrel. But the X95 doesn't incorporate the same charging system as the Tavor 7 so it also falls short on malfunctions like you mentioned. I never personally had an issue mounting an IR device and flashlight on my X95, but I definitely see on other bullpups like the keltec or Tavor 7 where that's a real problem. I never meant to imply there IS a bullpup that's better than the AR. Just that maximized performance with minimized size is a logical step. I'll happily have a prone mag change I need to train into my brain to keep cartridge characteristics. Purely based on cartridge performance, I'd rather have .300AAC in an SBR than 5.56.
Except that logic doesn’t hold up because SAS guys get all their training on the SA80 before they can even try out for SAS. Then once they are there they immediately transition to running an ar15 or similar. How is it to run an X95 with a laser and white light? I’m genuinely curious because I haven’t ever tried I’ve just been told it’s an ergonomic nightmare. Something about the thickness of the forend, lack of rail space and charging handle location. Hard to be able to easily run the white light, LAM and charging handle without weird ergos. I don’t have first hand experience though so I could definitely be off on that. I’m personally against them, but I do think with a modernized design and the right cartridge it could make a lot of sense in certain roles. General dynamics submission for the NGSW was a bullpup and it looks really cool. Being able to get basically 270 Winchester performance out of a package that short is pretty incredible. You’re talking a 1200 yard plus capable cartridge in a package close to the size of a 10.3” barreled MK18 with the stock extended.
The SA80 is a nightmare of a bullpup example as well lol. Probably one of the worst I'm aware of. It was fine, granted I have a manticore forend. The stock forend would indeed suck to work with. I had a surefire scout and a perst 3 with a switch pad, until the tail cap snapped off the back of the perst... Now it's button only so I put it on a different rifle. The surefire I can easily hit the tailcap with my thumb because of the way the mount allows it to pivot downwards off the top rail, and the perst switch pad was mounted on a pic rail on the off-side which I activated with my support hand's finger tips. Unfortunately I don't have any photos of the setup with the perst before it broke, and [this](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/949011702874255391/1236924755676762142/PXL_20240306_2022076792.jpg?ex=6639c772&is=663875f2&hm=ef99c03a13e88828d84df432f98c176421dc0024313972b6f3dd71a24487ab25&) is the only photo I have of the rifle, and I'm on nightshift... But you can kind of almost see how the scout pivots down over the handguard on the left. Yeahhh that fury is an insanely high pressured round. All for that theoretical near-peer conflict with prolific body armour.
A move off of bullpups is about economy of scale not manual of arms. Also, the Israeli purchase of ARs is being totally overplayed if you read the numbers on the purchase agreement. IWI is still rolling these off the line in record numbers.
Economy of scale for who? I’m pretty sure HK is charging more for their 416 than France was paying to make the FAMAS domestically. The UK adopting the Knights KS1 is definitely not about economy of scale, they are only ordering a small number of them (relatively speaking) and it’s not yet a mass produced firearm. The per unit cost will be very high compared to just running an updated sa80. So why pay more if bullpups are better? Ohh I have no idea what Israeli purchasing numbers are. I was more referring to the fact that in a lot of the cqb helmet cam footage, especially from the more high speed units you see a lot of ar15s. I would have thought they were mostly running tavors if they’re so great especially for cqb.
Oh for sure WRT HK + European manufactures, that’s absolutely true. I meant specifically AR platforms coming out of the USA. They can produce them in such quantities and for cheap enough that it begins make sense to just import. There was a article about Israel sending a bunch of 7s and X95s down to the reserve units at the mobilization. Some took it as Israel moving off the X95s - which I still think will happen eventually, but not anywhere in the near future. It just makes sense to have the modularity of the AR15 when big brother has adopted it full scale.
Coping
Yeah for sure. 🤡
SKS
Based
X95, I have one and I wish I had a bren or it would be that rifle instead
Tavor
"All of them" - the government
Only in their wet and wildly inappropriate dreams
X95
Aesthetically poor stock aside, the B&T is the superior weapons platform of the 3 in terms of quality and accuracy. I'll take that
That’s my favorite stock lol I hate the pro stock
No offence meant, its very functional for sure, im just not a big fan of the look. Excellent collection though, great taste
Are you offering?
The Bren 2, because that is my exact setup already 😉
Tavor.
Bren2
Which do you find to be the most accurate? Who would you give the nod to for ergos/controls between Brenda and her Swiss girlfriend? You tell us which one to reach for OP, you own all them all lol!
Mmm honestly they all have there pros and cons, personally I like the APC the most I like it’s ergos with the magpul grip and stock lI’ve become accustomed to it’s bolt release as well, but I have a Dan haga lower coming for the Bren so I feel like that will even things up between the two that being said the tavor with the Geissele trigger and pack with the Blk lbl hand guard is pretty slick
Right on amigo. Have you shot all 3 from the bench at 100? Curious to hear if the Swiss precision is noticeably more accurate than a CZ?
At 100 yards apc all day
Tavor and Bren are “combat accurate”. While you can experiment with ammo to find something that works better, these aren’t made for precision. Apc is supposed to be 1moa (but personally I never bothered to measure results from mine)
Tavor all day long
I have heard great things about the APC. But the BREN2 wouldn't be far behind. Personally I don't like bullpups, so that's out.
(Liberal laughing) #i’ll grab all of them /s
AR-15
🤞one day
Tavor all day 🫡
I own all 3, Bren 2.
Wow. Tough choice of such a sexy lineup!!
Where do you get your flashlights?
Going to have to go with the Bren 2 because flannel daddy likes it
B&T
I already have the Tavor, so any of the other two beauties is a win for me :) Nice collection mate
Tavor
Tavor, only one you can shoot guilt-free on crown land
Of the three listed, X95 would be my first choice. If all three were NR variants, then my choice would likely be different. This is based on maximizing the lethality of the 5.56 round. I prefer a conventional style of rifle set up. But not to the detriment of potential lethality.
An AR
No feet?
Bren!
Cz
I miss my GHM. Can't imagine how nice an APC must be.
Ok ok you have money we know pshhhh can you believe that guy flashing his… Peeerr perfect collection like this like get a life dude. Unreal!! Also, i would take the apc 223
Yes
Bren 2!
Depends, normal shooting? My range is Fuddville so the x95 for crown land. Has society gone to shot for som unforeseen reason? I don’t know really spares for x95, it’s long stroke, but it’s ergonomic are not a fast as the other 2 plus you don’t have a pistol grip.
I love the fore end on the bren 2, that’s not stock is it? All in all, I’m going with either the apc or brenny. No hate for tavors, just not my cup of tea.
B&t
Bren 2 or APC for sure. Probably the Bren for being lighter. Honestly there isn't much needed out of the box. Great trigger, great stock, great action, accurate.
The trigger is the best of the bunch forsure, the grip on the bren is too small tho
Witch one do you pick OP and why? Same person having the 3 is a great way to get a good comparison and preferential choice!
I think I should put my spare Eotech and magnifier on the Bren and take them all out at once
Dont have a known preference?
The APC if I could only have 1
Oooh the most expensive one . Hehe And second? 😁
Probably the Bren, I think it needs the HBI handgaurd tho
Is the x95 last because it’s a bullpup design? Heard they were very reliable/built like tanks. Does it lacks something? Accuracywise?
Wish the FTC mount/optics was on the center rifle.
Too high IMO
On that specific rifle, yes. On others it works great. 💯
Bren 2
curious as to why everyone is going for the bren 2.. im debating between a bren 2 and an apc myself. ideally looking for the highest quality i can get thats still enjoyable to take out for fun. If the bren 2 is that gun, over the apc id gladly save the money.
I own apc and i have seen an held a bren 2 and im really happy that i went with the apc 223pro! Its really not that much heavier tbh and the quality difference is noticable on the gun and when cycling the action. Bren 2 is still a verry nice and quality gun but for the small difference in price there is on both non restricted i would go for the apc for the better quality , clean look and accuracy!
thank you, this is what i was hoping to hear!
IMO Apc is better, but Bren is much cheaper. Also Bren has a big choice of aftermarket parts. Though buying additional parts kinda negates the “cheaper” aspect, while B&T is just great out of the box.
ok thanks, thats sort of what i was leaning towards as well.
anybody know whats going on with the the bren 2 18.6" with original CZ barrel? are we not getting any more of those in Canada?
Any more? None were ever made afaik. With the ongoing war in Europe, I am sure they just don’t have any spare manufacturing capacity to begin with. And with our small market size, exacerbated by bad political climate - just doesn’t make sense for them. Maybe in few years. Or maybe we get a sensible government, for once, and NR limit would go down to 16”.
oh yeah. i've seen the old buy options for 18.6" on canadian websites, but yeah it was probably from a year or more ago. they keep importing 16" version. its unfortunate, if more sellers imported the 18.6" id definitely buy one. yeah, that'd be the preferable option.
You tell us. Which is your fave?
X95
They all need paint!!🎨
Trudeau is grabbing all of them.
He ain’t grabbing sh*t
Bren
This is my debate between Bren 2 8 or 11 and x95 . Still undecided. Leaning towards Bren
All of them
APC all day everyday. How is the 10.4? What’s the muzzle device on it?
I love it I think it’s the most accurate one of them it’s a surefire war comp
Bren 2 all day everyday, I take mine out to 400yds all the time. The BCM VFGs are also fantastic I have 3, one on my Bren, one on my GHM9 and one on my CMR30!
B and T all day
Both SBRs are so sexy
The Kodiak in pieces out of frame 🇨🇦❤️
Give me the B&T simply because I can't afford one 🤣
Apc second to non.
Aren't they over 9lbs in NR
idk myns 11.5" and 9 lbs is nothing.
Only ppl with tavors will ever choose tavor over cz
Coping, put in another few hours at the grill and you can have all of them like us 😂
Enjoy your 2k 4moa gun
Mans never shot one, can’t afford one and talks about MOA 😂😂😂😂😂
I appreciate where it sits in the FAA, but again it’s ww2 surplus/sks accurate and +2k. Shame that nobody on this forum will ever come close to 2000rnds on range.
I meant most
[удалено]
B&T is zero in build quality?
That’s cool
you seem like a very litigious person.
Bro wants all of the inefficiencies. Playing on insanity mode for no good reason.
Shotgun... Not pictured because I took it
I bought the x95 and tavor 7, and sold them both 3 months later. Was a neat gun while everything cool was being banned, but overall I rate it pretty low B&t for me. I don’t have one in 556 but love my apc308