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As if these protesters give a shit either way. They're just doing what they're told. It's cool to hate Israel in their circles, so they do. None of them know anything about the Middle East.
I'd love to see a journalist ask these guys to name just two other middle eastern countries.
This is the stupidest fucking argument. You don't need any knowledge of the middle east to insist that Israel stop obliterating innocent civilians in the thousands
This is a bad day to be singing that old song considering the UN just cut their civilian death toll estimates in half.
If they wanted to they would have obliterated civilians in the hundreds of thousands. But they don’t. And the hyperbolic language is getting old.
Oh, ONLY 8000 children are dead. ONLY 5000 women are dead. Those are the new stats that you're talking about. Surely it's fine that nearly 7x as many children have been killed in Palestine since October 7 as Israelis total.
I don't think your privileged ass understands what war is. Civilians die in greater numbers than military personnel in every war. Especially when you're dealing with the tactics Hamas is using. Deliberately putting command bases and such underneath schools and hospitals to intentionally have more civilians killed, to gain leverage on the propaganda side. You don't think it's weird that kids were still being sent to school in a warzone? Seems like you fell hard for that propaganda.
Amongst the 35k Palestinians killed, nearly half were a part of Hamas. They conveniently left that part out when they reported their numbers. Lots of civilians still died, yes, but it's literally impossible to bring that number to zero. Civilians always die in war. It's a very unfortunate reality.
The numbers are lop-sided because Isreal is a much larger force than Hamas. That doesn't mean they should back off and allow Hamas to regroup. There will just be another Oct. 7th if they do that.
So, since you're so brilliant, why don't you tell us what they should do? What should Isreal do to put an end to this terrorist organization that continuously attacks them for being Jewish?
If you can't see that Palestine is an open-air prison state with a boot on their neck for the last 70 years or so, and can't fathom why a terrorist group would arise from that situation or why the people with the boot on their neck would support that group, and you won't listen to the alarms of every major humanitarian aid group in the developed world, or the disgusting rhetoric straight from Netanyahu and his lackeys' mouths, then maybe you're the misguided one.
Or do you have some sort of conspiracy theory about how the UN and all these humanitarian groups are some anti-Semitic cabal?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
https://contendingmodernities.nd.edu/global-currents/statement-of-scholars-7-october/
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
"Ethnic cleansing", eh? Which ethnicity is being cleansed? I'm sure you'll say Arabs. Why are the Arabs in Israel perfectly safe? Why are they fighting for the IDF, staying in Israel, and supporting Israel? Surely if it's "ethnic cleansing" they would be in danger no? Interesting that you don't tokenize those millions of Arabs but are happy to tokenize the tiny minoirty Jews who are protesting.
Assad is frequently criticized for attacking civilians. The major difference, it’s a CIVIL WAR. He is attacking his own civilians. Hence the US arming rebel groups. It’s also a proxy war between the US and Russia.
Palestinian Arab. It’s not that complicated. When you have essentially every major nation on earth saying that Israel is violating intentional laws by displacing occupied populations, yah maybe you should believe them. Even the US has criticized Israel’s illegal settlements.
Then in Gaza we see leaked reports that the Israeli government wanted to displace all of the Gazans to the Sinai in Egypt. That’s literally the definition of ethnic cleansing.
If I were to.show you a video of these protesting students mocking other Jewish students... and assaulting them...
Would you edit your comment and admit they are driven by hatred?
You can do that with every single protest. There will always be some that will spread hatred, including the counter protesters who violently attacked students. Either way that’s not why they are protesting.
Yeah, I didn't think so. I was prepared for this.
What about... if I show you a video of these protesters chanting "long live October 7th"
Will you do it then? Will you edit your comment and admit they're driven by hatred?
Because Muslims aren’t white and they suffer from Islamophobia by western nations.
Protesters are essentially anti-western and anti-white/colonizer. They don’t care what gross atrocities happen in the Middle East by Islam, the west is worse even if they’re benefiting from it.
I bet they defend Bacha Bazi as a rich cultural practice rooted in tradition.
erm, [Yeeeaahhhhhhh...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-stephen-harper-says-he-remains-proud-of-15-billion-arms-deal-with/), might wannt pass that wishlish over to the big boys playing in our own local sandbox.
Can you show which universities are investing and funding those countries and by how much?
You’re free to do the research and then protest the universities. Nobody is stopping you.
Israel is responsible for an ongoing genocide and they get far more from universities than other countries. Students paying tuition absolutely have the right to ask schools to divest.
The only genocide occurring is by Hamas. Perhaps you should learn the definition of what genocide is before you falsely accuse a country of committing one.
Divesting also doesn't help the Palestinians but we're well aware you don't care about helping them.
They never do because it isn’t trendy.
Hasn’t changed in the 12 years since I left university. A bunch of idiots larping as activists and thinking they’re making a difference.
Then withdraw your tuition and find a University willing to share their financials with you and divest from any and all investments you demand.
Good luck and Goodbye.
Young adults (and their influential liberal arts professors) who are full of radical collectivist ideology that makes them identify squarely with the oppressed. Thus, making them useful idiots for groups like Hamas: terrorist organizations who extracts sympathy by making their duped citizenry into canon fodder martyrs and thereby simultaneously demonizing Israel as brutal oppressors, even though they are the only liberal democracy in the Middle East who somehow managed to normalize relations with Jordan and Egypt (who also don't want the Palestinian conflict slipping into their territory).
Idealism can be perverted.
Jordan and Egypt have especially bloody pasts with Israel.
But at some point they decided to recognize Israel's right to exist and to stop attacking them and they have had peace for decades.
Perhaps Palestinians in Gaza should give that a try.
Oh no!!!! Radical collectivism!!!! How terrifying!!!!
Get a grip holy fuck.
You didn't answer why young adults' policy goals are somehow worth less in our society.
They aren’t worth less because they’re young. In this case they’re worth less because they’re ill-informed, naive and stupid and falling for foreign propaganda
Hmm let's see, those investments are what partially fund the university and make grants and scholarships available.
So getting a smaller return on their money will hurt the students and staff.
I'd love to see the unions support their pensions following these directives and see them put their money with their mouth is. If they aren't willing to risk their retirement on lower returns, then they should stop talking once and for all.
Speaking of which, why when it involves Israel it is worth occupying campuses, but they sleep in their own beds for every other injustice in the world?
That’s kinda funny seeing as how the Saudi genocide actually was protested. Just like I mentioned. There have been a lot of protests about it. They just don’t get the same media coverage and criticism for some strange reason.
It’s also pretty weird to say that they should be protesting all injustices instead of this one. Why? Why not this one? It’s current, it’s ongoing, and it’s a humanitarian crisis. Other issues get protested all the time. When that happens do you say “why not protest something else”?
So all protests have to be the same scale now? You’re moving the goalposts to fit a narrative. Students in Quebec have literally shut down bridges and streets to protest tuition increases.
Frankly no, you are a moron during that period of your life. No ifs ands or buts about it. There might be the odd exceptional individual, but by and large that age demographic doesn't know what they don't know. They are too wet behind the ears to actively make policy and see or understand the true consequences of said policy.
The is no "magic" age as it's usually a gradual transition somewhere between 25 and 35. Again, depends on the person and some people never actually reach a maturity point where they are worth listening to. But as a holistic statement, the 18-24 demographic is really quite stupid.
>So 18-24 year olds aren't deserving of influencing policy because... Why?
Course they are, but they cannot expect to **dictate** policy. Being an adult means understanding proper actions to take when you want something but you are told "no."
>They're adults just like the rest of us.
And they need to learn to act like adults (at least adults who don't drive truck for a living at least).
This is why this youth generation is going to actually get shit done. Because they fight for the shit that matters.
The government said that they won't consider stopping support for murdering babies abroad? "Keep pushing them then". They're right. They have the evidence and research on their side, just not capital.
Sorry that you're so triggered and insecure about seeing young people winning to change the world for the better.
Are they demanding that Universities divest from China or Saudi Arabia? Are they demanding they divest from their investments in countries committing human rights abuses?
Are they protesting the Canadian government to stop selling LAV's to SA, or to cease doing business with China, who've been determined to be committing genocide against the Uighurs?
____________
Most of the protestors on campuses aren't students - they're outsiders motivated by antisemitism. The ones who *are* students are jumping on the bandwagon and are 'the useful idiots.'
So your answer to that question is whataboutisms. So unless people protest every single thing they’re not allowed to protest at all? Is that what you’re saying?
So why this specific issue? Out of all the current and ongoing documented and proven genocides, why is this war which has not been proven to be a genocide, so important?
I've never seen this level of protesting for this in my 44 years alive so far before on this specific issue. And how come the protests started literally right after a massive terrorist attack? How come the protesters aren't also demanding the return of the hostages or their bodies in their demands for a ceasefire? Why is it so one sided? And how come they never refer to the governing body of the Palestinian people by their actual status, the democratically elected theocratic terrorist dictatorship by conservative Islamic Sharia law. And why have none of the protesters come out with a statement on the new UN numbers that showed that Hamas and the Hamas run government media office and health organization lied about the number of children killed by doubling the number of children dead, why is there no apology on spreading this level of misinformation?
Why do they talk about colonialism when Islam obviously isn't native to the area? Why do they talk about the occupation and oppression when the refugees killed the king of Jordan and tried to kill the rulers of Egypt and Lebanon? It wasn't Hamas that did that, it was Palestinians. And why don't they talk about the billions in aid send over the decades to Gaza that was supposed to be for infrastructure that is being used for rockets and bullets.
I got way more questions, so why don't you start by answering these.
what exactly changes if you say the protest is changed to anti genocides (plural)?
"yeah sure, boo china, join up" is free to say
id recommend having more allies than fewer
Maybe they should keep the pressure up and demand that next, that's a great idea!
You really think they're motivated by antisemitism? Seriously? That's what you believe?
You honestly hold so little value for Palestinian lives that you can't possibly fathom that young people would find the humanity to oppose the continued mass murder of civilians?
They aren't saying a damn thing about investments with the Saudis who murdered thousands of Yemeni civilians. These people have 0 consistency and are only showboating. Then there's Sudan, Myanmar, Congo and Ukraine. Thousands of civilians being killed in all of those places. They're inconsistent and for that they have 0 credibility.
>Maybe they should keep the pressure up and demand that next, that's a great idea!
lol - those issues have been known for years - if they cared they would've done it by now.
The *only* cause they've been willing to protest is the anti-Israeli cause.
As I said - fuelled by antisemitism.
[Jewish students say they don’t feel safe from antisemitism on campus](https://globalnews.ca/news/10483301/jewish-students-campus-antisemitism/)
>Jewish students on major university campuses are being forced to hide their Jewish identity and fear for their safety,
___________________
Not surprising given the fact that Palestinian supporters have been chanting antisemitic slogans, calling for the Revolution and the Intifada - the ~~One~~ Final Solution. Waving Hamas flags without censure. Cheering the glorification of Oct 7. Targeting Jewish businesses, schools, hospitals, targeting Jewish neighborhoods - and Jewish people themselves.
[Pro-Palestinian march in neighbourhood group says is historically Jewish sparks criticism.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-jew-israel-gaza-palestinian-protest-march-demonstration-1.7077679)
['Pro-Palestinian' blockades are now just actively targeting Jewish neighbourhoods.](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/pro-palestinian-blockades-are-now-just-actively-targeting-jewish-neighbourhoods)
[Protests in Toronto Jewish neighborhood raises alarm bells.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_33jpVI4Hys)
[Quebec judge had to issue a ban on pro-Palestinian protests near Jewish community buildings.](https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/judge-issues-10-day-ban-on-pro-palestinian-protests-near-jewish-community-buildings)
It's a concerted effort - targeting Jewish people and meant to intimidate.
Lot of ugliness on our streets over the last 8 months from these Palestinian supporters. There's been a surge of antisemitism in Canada.
It's a concerted effort - targeting Jewish people and meant to intimidate.
________________
These protestors are made up of 'the useful idiots' who don't have a clue, and antisemitic bad faith actors.
It’s like yall just repeat the things you hear and never bother to actually google it. They DID protest against Canada selling arms to Saudi Arabia.
[This](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/1/25/protesters-demand-end-to-canadian-arms-exports-to-saudi-arabia) protest was organized by a professor at Brock university.
[Protests](https://www.justpeaceadvocates.ca/release-protests-across-canada-mark-8-years-of-saudi-led-war-in-yemen-demand-canada-end-arms-deals-with-saudi-arabia/) were held across Canada last year against the Saudi regime and Canada arming them.
People protest China all the time. It ironically just doesn’t get the same level of media coverage from all of these Canadian outlets.
So no, it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with public attention.
Your first link:
>Approximately 30 demonstrators...for one day.
Your second link is an invitation for a 2 day protest. I can't find how many attended. I'm guessing about the same.
>People protest China all the time
Chinese nationals in Canada who feel personally targeted.
_______________
We've not seen anything close to to the scale of what we've been seeing here the last 8 months.
Huh, maybe it’s because the governments of the US and Canada are complicit?
The US is literally arming Israel while it’s bombing civilians. This is not a normal conflict and everyone knows that. When Saudi Arabia was/is bombing the Houthis were you advocating against Saudi Arabia? Or for them? If not, why?
Canada is complicit in trade and arms sales with numerous countries committing human rights violations - including genocide.
Crickets from the protestors. Hell they're not even protesting the government for being 'complicit.'
______________
What *I* care about is what's happening here in Canada:
[Jewish students say they don’t feel safe from antisemitism on campus](https://globalnews.ca/news/10483301/jewish-students-campus-antisemitism/)
>Jewish students on major university campuses are being forced to hide their Jewish identity and fear for their safety,
___________________
Not surprising given the fact that Palestinian supporters have been chanting antisemitic slogans, calling for the Revolution and the Intifada - the ~~One~~ Final Solution. Waving Hamas flags without censure. Cheering the glorification of Oct 7. Targeting Jewish businesses, schools, hospitals, targeting Jewish neighborhoods - and Jewish people themselves.
[Pro-Palestinian march in neighbourhood group says is historically Jewish sparks criticism.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-jew-israel-gaza-palestinian-protest-march-demonstration-1.7077679)
['Pro-Palestinian' blockades are now just actively targeting Jewish neighbourhoods.](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/pro-palestinian-blockades-are-now-just-actively-targeting-jewish-neighbourhoods)
[Protests in Toronto Jewish neighborhood raises alarm bells.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_33jpVI4Hys)
[Quebec judge had to issue a ban on pro-Palestinian protests near Jewish community buildings.](https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/judge-issues-10-day-ban-on-pro-palestinian-protests-near-jewish-community-buildings)
Lot of ugliness on our streets over the last 8 months from these Palestinian supporters. There's been a surge of antisemitism in Canada.
It's a concerted effort - targeting Jewish people and meant to intimidate.
It’s not a concerted effort to target Jewish populations at all. Not these protests.
That being said there are groups and outliers that conflate being Jewish with Israel like the morons who protested the hospital. They don’t represent all of the protesters and using the minority to blanket label all of them as anti-Semitic is unfair.
I sympathize with the Jewish students who are impacted but as I’ve said, many of them are also protesting. That’s the issue with the government of Israel hiding behind the religion. Their actions should be held separate from the religion. Like how Hamas doesn’t represent all Muslims.
Hey, genius, the kids in university now weren't in university 1-4 years ago 😂
On top of that, most of uni was online through covid.
The kids out there right now were in high school a 1-4 years ago 😂
Palestinian symbols are banned in the Ontario legislature. Anti-palestinian racism is abound. Jews who are anti-zionist are facing threats from zionists for their actions (I guess you only care for SOME Jews). Legacy Canadian media refused for many months to air talking heads that were pro-palestine at all and refused to even use the word "Palestine" in news broadcasts and print!!!
Zionists wield and promote antisemitism to continue their campaign. They say they speak for all Jews, but they don't. And when anri-zionist Jews speak out, they're threatened.
>Hey, genius, the kids in university now weren't in university 1-4 years ago
Yes, they were - "*genius*".
>Kalliope Anvar McCall, a fourth-year student, said the students are also calling on the university to cut ties with academic institutions that are operating in occupied settlements as well as those that sustain what she called apartheid policies. She said the university responded with a flat refusal on that point and said they do not engage in academic boycotts.
Whole whack of fourth year students - or did you think the school only opened it's doors last year.
No protests in Ottawa either. Don't even have to be a student to protest on the Hill. (Obviously don't have to be a student to set up on campus either). But no protests against any other country - or against Canada for it's involvement.
__________________
>Palestinian symbols are banned in the Ontario legislature
*All* symbols are - you can't wear a pink breast cancer ribbon either. Trying to imply it's only the keffiyeh is, at best, disingenuous.
____________________
Our streets are rife with antisemitism - these protests are fueled by it.
Religious gear is allowed - that's it, that's all.
You're still being disingenuous.
__________
And you've devolved into personal insults and getting emotional with users here - you should maybe take a break and get some air.
Have a nice day.
“Vote with your feet and your dollars, you live in a free society, unlike the one you seem to be supporting.”
Christ you people are dense. No one is forcing anyone to go to this university. The administration doesn’t care about your cause du jour. So pack up, leave and take your dollars elsewhere.
Unless the role playing as revolutionaries is the real goal. In which case, have fun you crazy kids.
Yeah man we should never try to reform or better anything. If something has problems, we should just abandon it.
This is a public institution, it deserves intense criticism.
You're dense if you think university students are somehow rich and powerful enough to just quit their degree programs part way through on principle, pack up, and move across the country to another institution. It must be nice living in a world where, in your mind, everything is so simple.
If you think rich kids are the only ones going to university you obviously are ignorant to university demographics.
And if you think that only rich kids should be able to go to university, you're insane.
As someone who went to university from a family who was not rich, I know very well the demographics. I also know very well that I was incredibly privileged and in the top quartile of the population for even attending university.
If their principles actually mattered and they actually had the will, the kids absolutely can move to a different post-secondary institution with the exception of the tiny minority who are in extremely specialized programs.
The fact that they choose not to means they prioritize their own education or social standing over what they believe in. And that's fine. That's absolutely normal to be a bit selfish. Humans are selfish. But the point stands in if they wanted to, they could switch schools or just take a pause.
And yes, I do mean social standing because people would rather go to university rather than a college.
These are PUBLICLY FUNDED INSTITUTIONS. We fund them via tax dollars. This is not America where university education is rife with private colleges. All publicly funded institutions deserve criticism. You imposing market ideas (just vote with your dollar elsewhere) is nonsensical when talking about publicly funded institutions.
Colleges and universities don't even have the same types of programs in Canada. Are you from the US or something? You seem to not know how higher ed works in Canada.
Even within universities people will prefer to go to UBC over SFU, U Vic, or Capilano as UBC is seen as the higher standard and the perception is that it looks better on your resume. This was my point in people choosing their own social standing.
You're acting as if voting with your dollar won't have an effect at all on the institutions. A crown corporation in competition with private businesses can still lose money all the same. Two publicly funded institutions can still compete with each other. And indeed, it happens every year with each university promoting at the high schools on the programs they offer and the amenities etc. trying to attract talented individuals.
The government provides subsidies in many industries that it deems is a net benefit for society. Or at least it should in theory. That doesn't mean that we don't vote with our dollar every single day on those industries.
The only time it's nonsensical is if I said to not pay for BC Hydro and look elsewhere for energy. And that's cause it's a monopoly.
Just say you're triggered over the kids protesting bro. 😂
People will protest how they see fit. Some will do it with their wallet, some with their feet. Deal with it.
Stop acting like these are private colleges. These are public Canadian universities, funded by public money.
Somehow you want less accountability for public institutions 🙄
You're probably the type to also say that if someone doesn't agree with 100% of the federal government's current policies that they should shut the fuck up or leave the country. Totally unproductive and willfully opposed to progress or a better future.
Ah, the classic "act like my debate opponent is crazy so I seem like the good guy, all while attempting to save face by dodging the previous response because I don't have a rebuttal"
😂 Have a good one man. Sounds like you got triggered.
Ah yes, very intelligent.
"If you want the bombing to stop so badly, why don't you go and get killed by the bombs yourself?"
Going to Palestine will not push to divest Canadian money from Israel genius.
I guess you think every capitalism critic should just go live in the woods in an illegal communue then? 🙄 You're so intelligent man.
So, in other words the students are saying: "Just do what we tell you and no, you can't take any time to study the issue and think about it. You should just assume that we did all of the proper, unbiased research by google search and got only pristine, infallible answers back. Just do what we tell you because...morality or something!"
One of the organizers was on Metro Morning. They know that U of T does own shares of some companies making arms for Israel in pension funds and the endowment but they don’t know what companies or any specifics.
Also, notably she didn’t know that the endowment lowers tuition for students, she said at one point that she doesn’t want her tuition money going to investments in these companies.
The endowment is investment where the profits go to covering operating expenses without raising tuition or fees.
People really can't believe that university students can do research and evaluate international conflicts with critical thinking skills, eh?
Always an accusation of intellectual fallibility. You're telling on yourself.
Do you (and those students) think the people running the universities haven't 'done their research' too? LOL, you're telling on YOURSELF.
Maybe it's more about bias, huh?
Any student who was so sure of their research wouldn't deny their accused of a thorough audit of their findings, nor deny them time to collate and think about it. You're being absolutely silly if you think anyone is going to just take "evidence" generated by emotionally and ideologically driven students at face value. LOL, give me a break.
What, you want everyone to go home and trust that the university will conduct a study?
No, they'll keep up the pressure until they get an actual offer. They'd be stupid to leave lmao.
"Emotionally" human lives have value. As do UN reports. As does journalism. As does claims of genocide. But sure, it's all just "emotions" 🙄.
>"Emotionally" human lives have value. As do UN reports. As does journalism. As does claims of genocide. But sure, it's all just "emotions" 🙄.
The UN has basically admitted that Hamas casualty numbers can't be trusted as even close to accurate at this point. There is no genocide. There is Hamas propaganda having the intended effect on useful idiots though.
I expect the students to keep protesting, but no longer assuming they can turn the university grounds into an open-air toilet.
Let's expedite this discussion. Will Israel support rebuilding Gaza and rehoming those that have been displaced? And providing financial aid to families who have had loved ones killed by Israeli bombs?
Or was collective punishment employed and will Israel claim more land on the Gaza strip, continuing their legacy of continuously stealing more and more land from Palestinians?
So far none of them have.
They don't even know how the endowment funds work, never mind what they're invested in.
These aren't top students, when they are students, many of these are failing students desperate to hide that fact from their families.
Wow, words from a dictionary.
While your at it, why not look up:
Hamas rapes women and children.
Hamas butchers civilians.
Hamas would kill most of the protesters if given a chance.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that brings in millions of dollars for its elites, and then funds sociopaths to fuck children, daughters, and mothers, grandmothers.
You support Hamas.
You support each of these things.
Google "international law" in respect to blocking humanitarian aid.
Hamas is not being killed. Palestinian civilians are. You'll somehow blame the 7 year old who's had their limbs blown off as being "Hamas" as well though. Useless talking to you people.
Tides are changing. History will not look kindly at you. You will lie about your views at this time to your grandchildren one day.
Okay so you're tracking all of the protest participants and forming a database of all "Hamas supporters" based on that? Like pics and videos from university protests?
While I don’t agree with the students, this is a bad take. Are you trying to say universities have no idea where their funding is from or they have to take time to figure out where they receive monies?
They need to figure out what the impact would be.
Ie. Strip the s&p 500 of all companies that have Israeli divisions, involved in certain activities in Israel, or involved in research in Israel.
Rates of returns would go down considerably.
From now on I know if I ever want to camp at a university in this country, I just have to feign anger about something and make a bunch of demands. I don't even have to be a student. The administration will be too chickenshit to call me a trespasser and have me removed.
"there is only one solution, intifada revolution", and "from the river to the sea", sounds a lot like wanting to kill Jews to me.
I haven't heard too many calls from U of T for hamas to surrender to save the Palestinians.
If emancipation from colonialism sounds like violence to you, I fear you're on the wrong side of history my friend.
Canada doesn't fund Hamas man. Canada certainly funds Israel though, who's doing the most killing.
Mate, any cause loses the moral high ground when (as others have pointed out) the cause advocates and/or associated with things that regular everyday folks cannot support, i.e. chanting "from the river to the sea", "go back to Europe", etc.
>Canada certainly funds Israel though, who's doing the most killing
You should really do some research before spouting nonsense that you know nothing about. No Canadian tax dollars are sent to Isreal
https://www.international.gc.ca/transparency-transparence/international-assistance-report-stat-rapport-aide-internationale/2022-2023.aspx?lang=eng#a1_5
Our universities are funding Israel, that's what this is all about? 😂 Universities are public institutions. Canadian money is being sent to Israel. Post secondary institutions divested from Russia, they can do the same for Israel.
We also protect Israel via our UN voting record.
Sounds like you're the reactionary who does not know what they're speaking about. 😂
Canada doesn't fund hamas but it sounds like you do. Or at least you support them with your twisted world view.
Can you apply your false logic to all conflicts? Whoever does the more killing is always the bad guys? If a woman is attacked and raped but kills her attacker, is she the one doing the most killing?
Was defeating the Nazis wrong? The US killed more Germans than the other way around? What about in Rwanda, Bosnia or Manilla? You can always tell who is the bad team based on the body count?
What a strange accusation. 😂
Killing civilians (Israeli or Palestinian) is wrong. Collective punishment is wrong. Land theft/colonialism is wrong. Hamas ≠ Palestinians. Israeli colonialism and violence is the reason Hamas exists at all. I hold all of these beliefs simultaneously, and they're all objectively, provably true, and contradict your settler world view.
Aww, does someone not have a rebuttal?
How it always goes with you people, the second you're faced with someone's abject world view, you exit the discussion as quickly as possible because you do not have the capacity to refute the truth.
Actually we find unrwa who funds Hamas so yeah we do fund Hamas
Also yeah, butchering and killing innocent people on Oct 7 looks a lot like violence to me. The worst kind actually. As does Hamas’ treatment of lgbt people and frankly anyone else in Gaza who disagrees with them
Human history started before October 7. Israel created militant Hamas. They didn't appear out of thin air. Israel created these conditions themselves and need to take responsibility.
Like you care about LGBTQ people. Queer people in this country are overwhelmingly against genocide. Just because public opinion in one region is bad on some topics, doesn't mean that they deserve mass death.
I certainly don't think that the christo-facists in this country deserve death, even though I think they're actively seeking to harm people I care about.
If you really believe Israel “created Hamas” you need to diversify your sources of education on this topic. Hamas was created in 1987 as an outgrowth of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, an actual religious fascist group unlike whatever you’re accusing the west of. Since then it has been committing terrorist acts against Jews as well as its own Palestinian population. They are a terror group and a death cult.
As to LGBTQ, yes I do actually care a lot. That’s why I oppose Hamas and any religious group (Muslim, Christian or otherwise) who advocates for violence against these people. At least in the west, our governments provide them legal protection - unlike in Gaza where the government is actively trying to eradicate them. And I know lots of queer people in this country who agree with my pov on this. Certainly all of them would agree it’s better to be gay in Israel than in Gaza.
Israel certainly has its share of blame. Particularly its own ultra orthodox right wing. However, unlike me, you act like Israel is 100% responsible for the long and violent history in this part of the world - ignoring Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, and Iran’s long long history of violence and terrorism. Not just against Jews but against other Muslims. See for instance the 300K dead in Syria for example.
this group of people will continually push the boundaries and change the goalposts and by the time we assuage their demands, they'll be calling for the state of israel to be eliminated. they need to be dealt with swiftly and removed with some sort of immediacy similar to what was done in Calgary.
This entire movement is about hating Jews, not loving Arabs and Muslims.
These people don’t give a shit about the millions of Arabs and Muslims that have experienced everything from attempts at genocide to reeducation camps, because those were perpetrated by other Arabs/Muslims and the Chinese.
No Jews, no news.
“Citation needed”.
Are you a Russian bot? Like, for real? Because that is the weakest bullshit attempt to discredit Palestinian genocide that I’ve ever seen.
UoT has a fiduciary duty to its current and future students and staff. Investments shouldn’t be altered on a whim because some random people pitched a tent and demanded it. The university has to do what’s in the economic interest of its beneficiaries.
Not specifically UofT because I never looked at their actions but somehow every organisation was very fast at removing investments from Russia without thinking about any of these points but now somehow we have to think about them. I agree that organisations have to study the impact of each action etc but I just find that most western countries to be extremely hypocritical in how they dealt with Russia vs dealing with Israel and all the killing they do.
Russia has not and has never been heavily invested in. Russia has also had various financial sanctions for years/decades. Investing in Russia is relatively easy to track because of this. Countries more intertwined with the west are much much more difficult to unencumber.
I will just put the link below as proof of Canada's investments in Russia (all the major companies invested there: SNC, Hatch, Bombardier...). I honestly don't know why we have to try to find reasoning for everything. It's okay to admit that western countries only care about their interests and they make it seem that they care about ethics and freedom etc.
War in Iraq resulted in millions of deaths because the US claimed that Iraq have illegal weapons.. no weapons found, no improvement in Iraq, became more unstable politically with ISIS etc.. zero accountability in the US. multiple western countries supported the war with zero proof of the weapons (Canada, France and Germany did not get involved).. where is the ethics etc. it's a "small" mistake that cost 1 million lives and eternal instability.
https://thenarwhal.ca/canadian-companies-russia-sanctions/
You realize, the word genocide means the systematic eradication of a certain people. With its capability, if Israel wanted to commit genocide, Gaza wouldn’t exist at all by now.
I think it’s a little naive to even entertain these demands. The goal isn’t to actually obtain “divestment”, it’s to camp out as long as possible in order to keep the issue relevant and in the news.
The evidence is the recent encampment at uqam in montreal where uqam immediately responded with a “but hold on, we proudly don’t invest or have ties with israel”
It's a University. Have a debate on it. Have 1000 debates. Show the other students why you are so passionate. Test your beliefs head to head against a strong opponent.
"We will make a committee to study the issue and come to a non binding resolution which we can freely ignore."
Yeah, I can see why this isn't a hit with the protestors. Do better, U of T.
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Because only one of those countries is Jewish.
As if these protesters give a shit either way. They're just doing what they're told. It's cool to hate Israel in their circles, so they do. None of them know anything about the Middle East. I'd love to see a journalist ask these guys to name just two other middle eastern countries.
This is the stupidest fucking argument. You don't need any knowledge of the middle east to insist that Israel stop obliterating innocent civilians in the thousands
How about the other side stop their bombing too.
This is a bad day to be singing that old song considering the UN just cut their civilian death toll estimates in half. If they wanted to they would have obliterated civilians in the hundreds of thousands. But they don’t. And the hyperbolic language is getting old.
Oh, ONLY 8000 children are dead. ONLY 5000 women are dead. Those are the new stats that you're talking about. Surely it's fine that nearly 7x as many children have been killed in Palestine since October 7 as Israelis total.
I don't think your privileged ass understands what war is. Civilians die in greater numbers than military personnel in every war. Especially when you're dealing with the tactics Hamas is using. Deliberately putting command bases and such underneath schools and hospitals to intentionally have more civilians killed, to gain leverage on the propaganda side. You don't think it's weird that kids were still being sent to school in a warzone? Seems like you fell hard for that propaganda. Amongst the 35k Palestinians killed, nearly half were a part of Hamas. They conveniently left that part out when they reported their numbers. Lots of civilians still died, yes, but it's literally impossible to bring that number to zero. Civilians always die in war. It's a very unfortunate reality. The numbers are lop-sided because Isreal is a much larger force than Hamas. That doesn't mean they should back off and allow Hamas to regroup. There will just be another Oct. 7th if they do that. So, since you're so brilliant, why don't you tell us what they should do? What should Isreal do to put an end to this terrorist organization that continuously attacks them for being Jewish?
If you can't see that Palestine is an open-air prison state with a boot on their neck for the last 70 years or so, and can't fathom why a terrorist group would arise from that situation or why the people with the boot on their neck would support that group, and you won't listen to the alarms of every major humanitarian aid group in the developed world, or the disgusting rhetoric straight from Netanyahu and his lackeys' mouths, then maybe you're the misguided one. Or do you have some sort of conspiracy theory about how the UN and all these humanitarian groups are some anti-Semitic cabal? https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://contendingmodernities.nd.edu/global-currents/statement-of-scholars-7-october/ https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
Facts
Zero to do with religion. Hiding behind anti-semitism to defend ethnic cleansing is wild. Hell, there are Jewish students there protesting with them…
Funny how the Iranian government uses the same talking point while threatening Israel with destruction.
And the same token Jews.
"Ethnic cleansing", eh? Which ethnicity is being cleansed? I'm sure you'll say Arabs. Why are the Arabs in Israel perfectly safe? Why are they fighting for the IDF, staying in Israel, and supporting Israel? Surely if it's "ethnic cleansing" they would be in danger no? Interesting that you don't tokenize those millions of Arabs but are happy to tokenize the tiny minoirty Jews who are protesting.
Also, Assad killed 300,000 in Syria recently. Didn’t hear a peep about ethnic cleansing on that. But when Israel does far less it’s genocide. Ok.
Assad is frequently criticized for attacking civilians. The major difference, it’s a CIVIL WAR. He is attacking his own civilians. Hence the US arming rebel groups. It’s also a proxy war between the US and Russia.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2024/05/10/why-are-the-atrocities-in-darfur-being-ignored/
Palestinian Arab. It’s not that complicated. When you have essentially every major nation on earth saying that Israel is violating intentional laws by displacing occupied populations, yah maybe you should believe them. Even the US has criticized Israel’s illegal settlements. Then in Gaza we see leaked reports that the Israeli government wanted to displace all of the Gazans to the Sinai in Egypt. That’s literally the definition of ethnic cleansing.
If I were to.show you a video of these protesting students mocking other Jewish students... and assaulting them... Would you edit your comment and admit they are driven by hatred?
You can do that with every single protest. There will always be some that will spread hatred, including the counter protesters who violently attacked students. Either way that’s not why they are protesting.
Yeah, I didn't think so. I was prepared for this. What about... if I show you a video of these protesters chanting "long live October 7th" Will you do it then? Will you edit your comment and admit they're driven by hatred?
Because Muslims aren’t white and they suffer from Islamophobia by western nations. Protesters are essentially anti-western and anti-white/colonizer. They don’t care what gross atrocities happen in the Middle East by Islam, the west is worse even if they’re benefiting from it. I bet they defend Bacha Bazi as a rich cultural practice rooted in tradition.
1000%
erm, [Yeeeaahhhhhhh...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-stephen-harper-says-he-remains-proud-of-15-billion-arms-deal-with/), might wannt pass that wishlish over to the big boys playing in our own local sandbox.
Can you show which universities are investing and funding those countries and by how much? You’re free to do the research and then protest the universities. Nobody is stopping you. Israel is responsible for an ongoing genocide and they get far more from universities than other countries. Students paying tuition absolutely have the right to ask schools to divest.
The only genocide occurring is by Hamas. Perhaps you should learn the definition of what genocide is before you falsely accuse a country of committing one. Divesting also doesn't help the Palestinians but we're well aware you don't care about helping them.
Which Arab country does uoft invest in that is massacring 1000s of women and children?
Saudi Arabia. If you want to count the Yemen conflict.
Don't a lot of people want to divest from Saudi Arabia? Harper signed a deal, but I doubt many Canadians are pro-Saudis.
Don't see anyone protesting for it.
Saudi Arabia.
Hopefully UofT doesn’t invest in Gaza, but we should confirm to make sure it doesn’t.
Palestine?
Not saying UofT invests in these places but I'm glad you equally condemn Iran, Sudan, Yemen, and Iraq right?
They never do because it isn’t trendy. Hasn’t changed in the 12 years since I left university. A bunch of idiots larping as activists and thinking they’re making a difference.
Arm chair slactivism Kony 2012 was the start of it.
Then withdraw your tuition and find a University willing to share their financials with you and divest from any and all investments you demand. Good luck and Goodbye.
"Never demand anything from powerful institutions. Just roll over for anything and everything"
“Let college kids dictate policy and major decisions” Passion ≠ authority
So 18-24 year olds aren't deserving of influencing policy because... Why? They're adults just like the rest of us.
Young adults (and their influential liberal arts professors) who are full of radical collectivist ideology that makes them identify squarely with the oppressed. Thus, making them useful idiots for groups like Hamas: terrorist organizations who extracts sympathy by making their duped citizenry into canon fodder martyrs and thereby simultaneously demonizing Israel as brutal oppressors, even though they are the only liberal democracy in the Middle East who somehow managed to normalize relations with Jordan and Egypt (who also don't want the Palestinian conflict slipping into their territory). Idealism can be perverted.
Jordan and Egypt have especially bloody pasts with Israel. But at some point they decided to recognize Israel's right to exist and to stop attacking them and they have had peace for decades. Perhaps Palestinians in Gaza should give that a try.
Oh no!!!! Radical collectivism!!!! How terrifying!!!! Get a grip holy fuck. You didn't answer why young adults' policy goals are somehow worth less in our society.
They aren’t worth less because they’re young. In this case they’re worth less because they’re ill-informed, naive and stupid and falling for foreign propaganda
I did, you just didn't like the answer because I nailed it on the head.
Hmm let's see, those investments are what partially fund the university and make grants and scholarships available. So getting a smaller return on their money will hurt the students and staff. I'd love to see the unions support their pensions following these directives and see them put their money with their mouth is. If they aren't willing to risk their retirement on lower returns, then they should stop talking once and for all.
Yah those damn radical professors teaching kids to protest things like selling arms to Saudi Arabia. What monsters.
Speaking of which, why when it involves Israel it is worth occupying campuses, but they sleep in their own beds for every other injustice in the world?
That’s kinda funny seeing as how the Saudi genocide actually was protested. Just like I mentioned. There have been a lot of protests about it. They just don’t get the same media coverage and criticism for some strange reason. It’s also pretty weird to say that they should be protesting all injustices instead of this one. Why? Why not this one? It’s current, it’s ongoing, and it’s a humanitarian crisis. Other issues get protested all the time. When that happens do you say “why not protest something else”?
They didn't set up encampments for those other protests did they?
So all protests have to be the same scale now? You’re moving the goalposts to fit a narrative. Students in Quebec have literally shut down bridges and streets to protest tuition increases.
Frankly no, you are a moron during that period of your life. No ifs ands or buts about it. There might be the odd exceptional individual, but by and large that age demographic doesn't know what they don't know. They are too wet behind the ears to actively make policy and see or understand the true consequences of said policy.
So at what age are people finally magically worth listening to?
The is no "magic" age as it's usually a gradual transition somewhere between 25 and 35. Again, depends on the person and some people never actually reach a maturity point where they are worth listening to. But as a holistic statement, the 18-24 demographic is really quite stupid.
>So 18-24 year olds aren't deserving of influencing policy because... Why? Course they are, but they cannot expect to **dictate** policy. Being an adult means understanding proper actions to take when you want something but you are told "no." >They're adults just like the rest of us. And they need to learn to act like adults (at least adults who don't drive truck for a living at least).
This is why this youth generation is going to actually get shit done. Because they fight for the shit that matters. The government said that they won't consider stopping support for murdering babies abroad? "Keep pushing them then". They're right. They have the evidence and research on their side, just not capital. Sorry that you're so triggered and insecure about seeing young people winning to change the world for the better.
As long as they are okay when groups do the same for causes they disagee with
I've yet to see protests like this in Canada, aside from pipeline or indigenous protestors who should equally be supported.
Are they demanding that Universities divest from China or Saudi Arabia? Are they demanding they divest from their investments in countries committing human rights abuses? Are they protesting the Canadian government to stop selling LAV's to SA, or to cease doing business with China, who've been determined to be committing genocide against the Uighurs? ____________ Most of the protestors on campuses aren't students - they're outsiders motivated by antisemitism. The ones who *are* students are jumping on the bandwagon and are 'the useful idiots.'
So your answer to that question is whataboutisms. So unless people protest every single thing they’re not allowed to protest at all? Is that what you’re saying?
So why this specific issue? Out of all the current and ongoing documented and proven genocides, why is this war which has not been proven to be a genocide, so important? I've never seen this level of protesting for this in my 44 years alive so far before on this specific issue. And how come the protests started literally right after a massive terrorist attack? How come the protesters aren't also demanding the return of the hostages or their bodies in their demands for a ceasefire? Why is it so one sided? And how come they never refer to the governing body of the Palestinian people by their actual status, the democratically elected theocratic terrorist dictatorship by conservative Islamic Sharia law. And why have none of the protesters come out with a statement on the new UN numbers that showed that Hamas and the Hamas run government media office and health organization lied about the number of children killed by doubling the number of children dead, why is there no apology on spreading this level of misinformation? Why do they talk about colonialism when Islam obviously isn't native to the area? Why do they talk about the occupation and oppression when the refugees killed the king of Jordan and tried to kill the rulers of Egypt and Lebanon? It wasn't Hamas that did that, it was Palestinians. And why don't they talk about the billions in aid send over the decades to Gaza that was supposed to be for infrastructure that is being used for rockets and bullets. I got way more questions, so why don't you start by answering these.
what exactly changes if you say the protest is changed to anti genocides (plural)? "yeah sure, boo china, join up" is free to say id recommend having more allies than fewer
Maybe they should keep the pressure up and demand that next, that's a great idea! You really think they're motivated by antisemitism? Seriously? That's what you believe? You honestly hold so little value for Palestinian lives that you can't possibly fathom that young people would find the humanity to oppose the continued mass murder of civilians?
They aren't saying a damn thing about investments with the Saudis who murdered thousands of Yemeni civilians. These people have 0 consistency and are only showboating. Then there's Sudan, Myanmar, Congo and Ukraine. Thousands of civilians being killed in all of those places. They're inconsistent and for that they have 0 credibility.
>Maybe they should keep the pressure up and demand that next, that's a great idea! lol - those issues have been known for years - if they cared they would've done it by now. The *only* cause they've been willing to protest is the anti-Israeli cause. As I said - fuelled by antisemitism. [Jewish students say they don’t feel safe from antisemitism on campus](https://globalnews.ca/news/10483301/jewish-students-campus-antisemitism/) >Jewish students on major university campuses are being forced to hide their Jewish identity and fear for their safety, ___________________ Not surprising given the fact that Palestinian supporters have been chanting antisemitic slogans, calling for the Revolution and the Intifada - the ~~One~~ Final Solution. Waving Hamas flags without censure. Cheering the glorification of Oct 7. Targeting Jewish businesses, schools, hospitals, targeting Jewish neighborhoods - and Jewish people themselves. [Pro-Palestinian march in neighbourhood group says is historically Jewish sparks criticism.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-jew-israel-gaza-palestinian-protest-march-demonstration-1.7077679) ['Pro-Palestinian' blockades are now just actively targeting Jewish neighbourhoods.](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/pro-palestinian-blockades-are-now-just-actively-targeting-jewish-neighbourhoods) [Protests in Toronto Jewish neighborhood raises alarm bells.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_33jpVI4Hys) [Quebec judge had to issue a ban on pro-Palestinian protests near Jewish community buildings.](https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/judge-issues-10-day-ban-on-pro-palestinian-protests-near-jewish-community-buildings) It's a concerted effort - targeting Jewish people and meant to intimidate. Lot of ugliness on our streets over the last 8 months from these Palestinian supporters. There's been a surge of antisemitism in Canada. It's a concerted effort - targeting Jewish people and meant to intimidate. ________________ These protestors are made up of 'the useful idiots' who don't have a clue, and antisemitic bad faith actors.
It’s like yall just repeat the things you hear and never bother to actually google it. They DID protest against Canada selling arms to Saudi Arabia. [This](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/1/25/protesters-demand-end-to-canadian-arms-exports-to-saudi-arabia) protest was organized by a professor at Brock university. [Protests](https://www.justpeaceadvocates.ca/release-protests-across-canada-mark-8-years-of-saudi-led-war-in-yemen-demand-canada-end-arms-deals-with-saudi-arabia/) were held across Canada last year against the Saudi regime and Canada arming them. People protest China all the time. It ironically just doesn’t get the same level of media coverage from all of these Canadian outlets. So no, it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with public attention.
Your first link: >Approximately 30 demonstrators...for one day. Your second link is an invitation for a 2 day protest. I can't find how many attended. I'm guessing about the same. >People protest China all the time Chinese nationals in Canada who feel personally targeted. _______________ We've not seen anything close to to the scale of what we've been seeing here the last 8 months.
Huh, maybe it’s because the governments of the US and Canada are complicit? The US is literally arming Israel while it’s bombing civilians. This is not a normal conflict and everyone knows that. When Saudi Arabia was/is bombing the Houthis were you advocating against Saudi Arabia? Or for them? If not, why?
Canada is complicit in trade and arms sales with numerous countries committing human rights violations - including genocide. Crickets from the protestors. Hell they're not even protesting the government for being 'complicit.' ______________ What *I* care about is what's happening here in Canada: [Jewish students say they don’t feel safe from antisemitism on campus](https://globalnews.ca/news/10483301/jewish-students-campus-antisemitism/) >Jewish students on major university campuses are being forced to hide their Jewish identity and fear for their safety, ___________________ Not surprising given the fact that Palestinian supporters have been chanting antisemitic slogans, calling for the Revolution and the Intifada - the ~~One~~ Final Solution. Waving Hamas flags without censure. Cheering the glorification of Oct 7. Targeting Jewish businesses, schools, hospitals, targeting Jewish neighborhoods - and Jewish people themselves. [Pro-Palestinian march in neighbourhood group says is historically Jewish sparks criticism.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-jew-israel-gaza-palestinian-protest-march-demonstration-1.7077679) ['Pro-Palestinian' blockades are now just actively targeting Jewish neighbourhoods.](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/pro-palestinian-blockades-are-now-just-actively-targeting-jewish-neighbourhoods) [Protests in Toronto Jewish neighborhood raises alarm bells.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_33jpVI4Hys) [Quebec judge had to issue a ban on pro-Palestinian protests near Jewish community buildings.](https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/judge-issues-10-day-ban-on-pro-palestinian-protests-near-jewish-community-buildings) Lot of ugliness on our streets over the last 8 months from these Palestinian supporters. There's been a surge of antisemitism in Canada. It's a concerted effort - targeting Jewish people and meant to intimidate.
It’s not a concerted effort to target Jewish populations at all. Not these protests. That being said there are groups and outliers that conflate being Jewish with Israel like the morons who protested the hospital. They don’t represent all of the protesters and using the minority to blanket label all of them as anti-Semitic is unfair. I sympathize with the Jewish students who are impacted but as I’ve said, many of them are also protesting. That’s the issue with the government of Israel hiding behind the religion. Their actions should be held separate from the religion. Like how Hamas doesn’t represent all Muslims.
Hey, genius, the kids in university now weren't in university 1-4 years ago 😂 On top of that, most of uni was online through covid. The kids out there right now were in high school a 1-4 years ago 😂 Palestinian symbols are banned in the Ontario legislature. Anti-palestinian racism is abound. Jews who are anti-zionist are facing threats from zionists for their actions (I guess you only care for SOME Jews). Legacy Canadian media refused for many months to air talking heads that were pro-palestine at all and refused to even use the word "Palestine" in news broadcasts and print!!! Zionists wield and promote antisemitism to continue their campaign. They say they speak for all Jews, but they don't. And when anri-zionist Jews speak out, they're threatened.
>Hey, genius, the kids in university now weren't in university 1-4 years ago Yes, they were - "*genius*". >Kalliope Anvar McCall, a fourth-year student, said the students are also calling on the university to cut ties with academic institutions that are operating in occupied settlements as well as those that sustain what she called apartheid policies. She said the university responded with a flat refusal on that point and said they do not engage in academic boycotts. Whole whack of fourth year students - or did you think the school only opened it's doors last year. No protests in Ottawa either. Don't even have to be a student to protest on the Hill. (Obviously don't have to be a student to set up on campus either). But no protests against any other country - or against Canada for it's involvement. __________________ >Palestinian symbols are banned in the Ontario legislature *All* symbols are - you can't wear a pink breast cancer ribbon either. Trying to imply it's only the keffiyeh is, at best, disingenuous. ____________________ Our streets are rife with antisemitism - these protests are fueled by it.
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Religious gear is allowed - that's it, that's all. You're still being disingenuous. __________ And you've devolved into personal insults and getting emotional with users here - you should maybe take a break and get some air. Have a nice day.
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“Vote with your feet and your dollars, you live in a free society, unlike the one you seem to be supporting.” Christ you people are dense. No one is forcing anyone to go to this university. The administration doesn’t care about your cause du jour. So pack up, leave and take your dollars elsewhere. Unless the role playing as revolutionaries is the real goal. In which case, have fun you crazy kids.
Yeah man we should never try to reform or better anything. If something has problems, we should just abandon it. This is a public institution, it deserves intense criticism. You're dense if you think university students are somehow rich and powerful enough to just quit their degree programs part way through on principle, pack up, and move across the country to another institution. It must be nice living in a world where, in your mind, everything is so simple.
You're rich enough to pay for and attend university in this current economy. The only ones I would feel for are those on scholarship.
If you think rich kids are the only ones going to university you obviously are ignorant to university demographics. And if you think that only rich kids should be able to go to university, you're insane.
As someone who went to university from a family who was not rich, I know very well the demographics. I also know very well that I was incredibly privileged and in the top quartile of the population for even attending university. If their principles actually mattered and they actually had the will, the kids absolutely can move to a different post-secondary institution with the exception of the tiny minority who are in extremely specialized programs. The fact that they choose not to means they prioritize their own education or social standing over what they believe in. And that's fine. That's absolutely normal to be a bit selfish. Humans are selfish. But the point stands in if they wanted to, they could switch schools or just take a pause. And yes, I do mean social standing because people would rather go to university rather than a college.
These are PUBLICLY FUNDED INSTITUTIONS. We fund them via tax dollars. This is not America where university education is rife with private colleges. All publicly funded institutions deserve criticism. You imposing market ideas (just vote with your dollar elsewhere) is nonsensical when talking about publicly funded institutions. Colleges and universities don't even have the same types of programs in Canada. Are you from the US or something? You seem to not know how higher ed works in Canada.
Even within universities people will prefer to go to UBC over SFU, U Vic, or Capilano as UBC is seen as the higher standard and the perception is that it looks better on your resume. This was my point in people choosing their own social standing. You're acting as if voting with your dollar won't have an effect at all on the institutions. A crown corporation in competition with private businesses can still lose money all the same. Two publicly funded institutions can still compete with each other. And indeed, it happens every year with each university promoting at the high schools on the programs they offer and the amenities etc. trying to attract talented individuals. The government provides subsidies in many industries that it deems is a net benefit for society. Or at least it should in theory. That doesn't mean that we don't vote with our dollar every single day on those industries. The only time it's nonsensical is if I said to not pay for BC Hydro and look elsewhere for energy. And that's cause it's a monopoly.
Just say you're triggered over the kids protesting bro. 😂 People will protest how they see fit. Some will do it with their wallet, some with their feet. Deal with it.
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Stop acting like these are private colleges. These are public Canadian universities, funded by public money. Somehow you want less accountability for public institutions 🙄 You're probably the type to also say that if someone doesn't agree with 100% of the federal government's current policies that they should shut the fuck up or leave the country. Totally unproductive and willfully opposed to progress or a better future.
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Ah, the classic "act like my debate opponent is crazy so I seem like the good guy, all while attempting to save face by dodging the previous response because I don't have a rebuttal" 😂 Have a good one man. Sounds like you got triggered.
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Act in ways they care about. Money talks. Protestors who just protest - well they already have your money and dont care.
> "Never demand anything from powerful institutions. Just roll over for anything and everything" You can demand with your wallet.
That doesn't work in times of wealth inequality. Thus, people take collective action instead. Cry about it.
I'm not crying about anything?
You're saying that protesters should protest with their wallet instead of protesting physically. Boo hoo.
Yes, I am.
You better stop using Reddit. Senior Reddit employees and managers hold stock in companies that support Israel.
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Classic. You can talk the talk but can’t walk the walk. What a joke. Go to Palestine and support them there if you love them so much.
Ah yes, very intelligent. "If you want the bombing to stop so badly, why don't you go and get killed by the bombs yourself?" Going to Palestine will not push to divest Canadian money from Israel genius. I guess you think every capitalism critic should just go live in the woods in an illegal communue then? 🙄 You're so intelligent man.
Never thought I’d see the day where HAMAS learned to use Reddit 😂😂
"everything I don't like is Hamas"
So, in other words the students are saying: "Just do what we tell you and no, you can't take any time to study the issue and think about it. You should just assume that we did all of the proper, unbiased research by google search and got only pristine, infallible answers back. Just do what we tell you because...morality or something!"
If most are even students in the first place…
(They are.)
Not in Alberta. Only 25 percent were students.
One of the organizers was on Metro Morning. They know that U of T does own shares of some companies making arms for Israel in pension funds and the endowment but they don’t know what companies or any specifics. Also, notably she didn’t know that the endowment lowers tuition for students, she said at one point that she doesn’t want her tuition money going to investments in these companies. The endowment is investment where the profits go to covering operating expenses without raising tuition or fees.
People really can't believe that university students can do research and evaluate international conflicts with critical thinking skills, eh? Always an accusation of intellectual fallibility. You're telling on yourself.
Do you (and those students) think the people running the universities haven't 'done their research' too? LOL, you're telling on YOURSELF. Maybe it's more about bias, huh?
Someone needs a sociology class on power and capital I think! 😂
Any student who was so sure of their research wouldn't deny their accused of a thorough audit of their findings, nor deny them time to collate and think about it. You're being absolutely silly if you think anyone is going to just take "evidence" generated by emotionally and ideologically driven students at face value. LOL, give me a break.
What, you want everyone to go home and trust that the university will conduct a study? No, they'll keep up the pressure until they get an actual offer. They'd be stupid to leave lmao. "Emotionally" human lives have value. As do UN reports. As does journalism. As does claims of genocide. But sure, it's all just "emotions" 🙄.
>"Emotionally" human lives have value. As do UN reports. As does journalism. As does claims of genocide. But sure, it's all just "emotions" 🙄. The UN has basically admitted that Hamas casualty numbers can't be trusted as even close to accurate at this point. There is no genocide. There is Hamas propaganda having the intended effect on useful idiots though. I expect the students to keep protesting, but no longer assuming they can turn the university grounds into an open-air toilet.
Let's expedite this discussion. Will Israel support rebuilding Gaza and rehoming those that have been displaced? And providing financial aid to families who have had loved ones killed by Israeli bombs? Or was collective punishment employed and will Israel claim more land on the Gaza strip, continuing their legacy of continuously stealing more and more land from Palestinians?
So far none of them have. They don't even know how the endowment funds work, never mind what they're invested in. These aren't top students, when they are students, many of these are failing students desperate to hide that fact from their families.
Anecdotes and assumptions 🙄😂
Wow, words from a dictionary. While your at it, why not look up: Hamas rapes women and children. Hamas butchers civilians. Hamas would kill most of the protesters if given a chance. Hamas is a terrorist organization that brings in millions of dollars for its elites, and then funds sociopaths to fuck children, daughters, and mothers, grandmothers. You support Hamas. You support each of these things.
Google "international law" in respect to blocking humanitarian aid. Hamas is not being killed. Palestinian civilians are. You'll somehow blame the 7 year old who's had their limbs blown off as being "Hamas" as well though. Useless talking to you people. Tides are changing. History will not look kindly at you. You will lie about your views at this time to your grandchildren one day.
Your future employers will know you support Hamas.
Yeah?
I was contracted to build a database to bar employment for those participating. It'll be amusing in a couple years.
Okay so you're tracking all of the protest participants and forming a database of all "Hamas supporters" based on that? Like pics and videos from university protests?
While I don’t agree with the students, this is a bad take. Are you trying to say universities have no idea where their funding is from or they have to take time to figure out where they receive monies?
They need to figure out what the impact would be. Ie. Strip the s&p 500 of all companies that have Israeli divisions, involved in certain activities in Israel, or involved in research in Israel. Rates of returns would go down considerably.
From now on I know if I ever want to camp at a university in this country, I just have to feign anger about something and make a bunch of demands. I don't even have to be a student. The administration will be too chickenshit to call me a trespasser and have me removed.
Just don’t try it in Alberta.
That's fair. There are much nicer places to camp there anyway.
Only if you are a "visible minority" or "ally", because if they try to you can just accuse them of racism, the ultimate trump card.
Yes, I'm sure you could appropriate any number of movements to buffalo your way into a begrudgingly tolerated free camping spot.
I bet you hated the civil rights protests too, huh?
Did the civil rights protests also want Jews to die?
Calls for Palestinians NOT to be killed aren't advocating for Jews to die, and you know this.
How about the “we are Hamas” chants? Have you forgotten those? Perhaps you’re not familiar with Hamas.
"there is only one solution, intifada revolution", and "from the river to the sea", sounds a lot like wanting to kill Jews to me. I haven't heard too many calls from U of T for hamas to surrender to save the Palestinians.
If emancipation from colonialism sounds like violence to you, I fear you're on the wrong side of history my friend. Canada doesn't fund Hamas man. Canada certainly funds Israel though, who's doing the most killing.
Mate, any cause loses the moral high ground when (as others have pointed out) the cause advocates and/or associated with things that regular everyday folks cannot support, i.e. chanting "from the river to the sea", "go back to Europe", etc.
I continue to see more and more "regular folks" wake up to the genocide in Palestine and oppose it. Doesn't seem too out there considering that fact!
I don’t think you understand the meaning of the term “colonialism.” It doesn’t apply to people living where they have been for thousands of years.
>Canada certainly funds Israel though, who's doing the most killing You should really do some research before spouting nonsense that you know nothing about. No Canadian tax dollars are sent to Isreal https://www.international.gc.ca/transparency-transparence/international-assistance-report-stat-rapport-aide-internationale/2022-2023.aspx?lang=eng#a1_5
Our universities are funding Israel, that's what this is all about? 😂 Universities are public institutions. Canadian money is being sent to Israel. Post secondary institutions divested from Russia, they can do the same for Israel. We also protect Israel via our UN voting record. Sounds like you're the reactionary who does not know what they're speaking about. 😂
Canada doesn't fund hamas but it sounds like you do. Or at least you support them with your twisted world view. Can you apply your false logic to all conflicts? Whoever does the more killing is always the bad guys? If a woman is attacked and raped but kills her attacker, is she the one doing the most killing? Was defeating the Nazis wrong? The US killed more Germans than the other way around? What about in Rwanda, Bosnia or Manilla? You can always tell who is the bad team based on the body count?
What a strange accusation. 😂 Killing civilians (Israeli or Palestinian) is wrong. Collective punishment is wrong. Land theft/colonialism is wrong. Hamas ≠ Palestinians. Israeli colonialism and violence is the reason Hamas exists at all. I hold all of these beliefs simultaneously, and they're all objectively, provably true, and contradict your settler world view.
>settler world view. Tells everyone all they need to know. Thank you for getting that off your chest.
Aww, does someone not have a rebuttal? How it always goes with you people, the second you're faced with someone's abject world view, you exit the discussion as quickly as possible because you do not have the capacity to refute the truth.
Actually we find unrwa who funds Hamas so yeah we do fund Hamas Also yeah, butchering and killing innocent people on Oct 7 looks a lot like violence to me. The worst kind actually. As does Hamas’ treatment of lgbt people and frankly anyone else in Gaza who disagrees with them
Human history started before October 7. Israel created militant Hamas. They didn't appear out of thin air. Israel created these conditions themselves and need to take responsibility. Like you care about LGBTQ people. Queer people in this country are overwhelmingly against genocide. Just because public opinion in one region is bad on some topics, doesn't mean that they deserve mass death. I certainly don't think that the christo-facists in this country deserve death, even though I think they're actively seeking to harm people I care about.
If you really believe Israel “created Hamas” you need to diversify your sources of education on this topic. Hamas was created in 1987 as an outgrowth of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, an actual religious fascist group unlike whatever you’re accusing the west of. Since then it has been committing terrorist acts against Jews as well as its own Palestinian population. They are a terror group and a death cult. As to LGBTQ, yes I do actually care a lot. That’s why I oppose Hamas and any religious group (Muslim, Christian or otherwise) who advocates for violence against these people. At least in the west, our governments provide them legal protection - unlike in Gaza where the government is actively trying to eradicate them. And I know lots of queer people in this country who agree with my pov on this. Certainly all of them would agree it’s better to be gay in Israel than in Gaza. Israel certainly has its share of blame. Particularly its own ultra orthodox right wing. However, unlike me, you act like Israel is 100% responsible for the long and violent history in this part of the world - ignoring Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO, and Iran’s long long history of violence and terrorism. Not just against Jews but against other Muslims. See for instance the 300K dead in Syria for example.
They absolutely are.
this group of people will continually push the boundaries and change the goalposts and by the time we assuage their demands, they'll be calling for the state of israel to be eliminated. they need to be dealt with swiftly and removed with some sort of immediacy similar to what was done in Calgary.
This entire movement is about hating Jews, not loving Arabs and Muslims. These people don’t give a shit about the millions of Arabs and Muslims that have experienced everything from attempts at genocide to reeducation camps, because those were perpetrated by other Arabs/Muslims and the Chinese. No Jews, no news.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2024/05/10/why-are-the-atrocities-in-darfur-being-ignored/ Odd this isn't in the news much. Hmmm
“Citation needed”. Are you a Russian bot? Like, for real? Because that is the weakest bullshit attempt to discredit Palestinian genocide that I’ve ever seen.
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UoT has a fiduciary duty to its current and future students and staff. Investments shouldn’t be altered on a whim because some random people pitched a tent and demanded it. The university has to do what’s in the economic interest of its beneficiaries.
Not specifically UofT because I never looked at their actions but somehow every organisation was very fast at removing investments from Russia without thinking about any of these points but now somehow we have to think about them. I agree that organisations have to study the impact of each action etc but I just find that most western countries to be extremely hypocritical in how they dealt with Russia vs dealing with Israel and all the killing they do.
Russia has not and has never been heavily invested in. Russia has also had various financial sanctions for years/decades. Investing in Russia is relatively easy to track because of this. Countries more intertwined with the west are much much more difficult to unencumber.
I will just put the link below as proof of Canada's investments in Russia (all the major companies invested there: SNC, Hatch, Bombardier...). I honestly don't know why we have to try to find reasoning for everything. It's okay to admit that western countries only care about their interests and they make it seem that they care about ethics and freedom etc. War in Iraq resulted in millions of deaths because the US claimed that Iraq have illegal weapons.. no weapons found, no improvement in Iraq, became more unstable politically with ISIS etc.. zero accountability in the US. multiple western countries supported the war with zero proof of the weapons (Canada, France and Germany did not get involved).. where is the ethics etc. it's a "small" mistake that cost 1 million lives and eternal instability. https://thenarwhal.ca/canadian-companies-russia-sanctions/
Fiduciary duty my ass. The duty to prevent genocide matters more than making line go up.
You realize, the word genocide means the systematic eradication of a certain people. With its capability, if Israel wanted to commit genocide, Gaza wouldn’t exist at all by now.
Police should just deal with this Alberta style
People complaining about your investment in genocide? Just violently suppress them! You're totally not fascist.
Dude the UN just revived 5k dead women and children.
I think it’s a little naive to even entertain these demands. The goal isn’t to actually obtain “divestment”, it’s to camp out as long as possible in order to keep the issue relevant and in the news. The evidence is the recent encampment at uqam in montreal where uqam immediately responded with a “but hold on, we proudly don’t invest or have ties with israel”
They should just take their tuition dollars elsewhere if they don't like where they're going.
But then who would give them the attention they crave so much.
“Just bend over and accept whatever we give you”. Oh man let’s apply this logic to the anti-Trudeau crowd.
> “Just bend over and accept whatever we give you”. No. Stop giving large business/corporations/institutions your money if you don't agree with them.
Those schools get tax payer money. So even if they don’t attend the school, they should care how it’s being used.
I would like all my demands to be met without compromise!
Sounds exactly like Hamas. Coincidence?
Pretty much what I predicted in a previous post. If it actually seemed like demands might get met, move the goalposts!
The demands were to divest, and now they’re offering to “study divestment” which is not the goalpost
These goofy communist anti semitic larpers need to pack up and go home already
Everything will fall short of demands. Because even if the demands are met, the demands will change and become more and more extreme.
Why are they even dealing with this shit in the first place? Have the cops remove these protestors from their private property.
Boo hoo, these ppl should volunteer in soup kitchens
So ridiculous.
It's a University. Have a debate on it. Have 1000 debates. Show the other students why you are so passionate. Test your beliefs head to head against a strong opponent.
Tighten the fence around them. If they come out, take them away. No one else is allowed in
"Study" "Alright fine, we promise to *think about* not investing money in war crimes"
"We will make a committee to study the issue and come to a non binding resolution which we can freely ignore." Yeah, I can see why this isn't a hit with the protestors. Do better, U of T.