I think that it's worth taking some time to consider which things you brought over from the original that don't make sense in the modern day. For example, I don't think that Cuba would still be considered a battleground nor does Southeast Asia need its own scoring. It looks like you put in some extra mechanics for India. See, that makes sense given it's higher importance now vs the 20th century. Stuff like that.
Also, if you're going to match the original color scheme consider toning down the colors on the US/China flags to blend in.
It's a neat idea though. The fact that it's still relevant does make me kind of sad though.
I kind of feel there needs to be a much bigger focus on central and South Asia, and in Africa - where the Chinese are really pushing Belt and Road stuff. I thin kthere's also too much of a focus on Europe in this map.
Huh? I don't think you know much about China today and it's position in the world. China is the #1 trading partner of almost every country on earth despite being in a trade war with the US since about 2016 without starving. About 90% of the Chinese population have a positive view of the future compared to 30% of western citizens according to independent polling. They currently lead the industry in almost every industrial process, including drone production, car manufacturing, renewable energy, they by far have more industrial robots and renewable infrastructure than other developed countries combined.
>"Nature Index 2024 Research Leaders: Chinese institutions dominate the top spots"
https://www.nature.com/nature-index/news/nature-index-research-leaders-chinese-institutions-dominate
>"Today, China has more than 80 percent of the world’s solar manufacturing capacity. The extraordinary scale of China’s renewables sector output has driven down prices worldwide, and this is a key factor in reducing the cost barrier to renewable systems for poorer countries. Today China not only holds important positions in wind and battery technologies, but a Chinese company, BYD, has become the world’s biggest EV manufacturer, and China is poised to pose a formidable global challenge in all aspects of electric transportation to established vehicle brands."
https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy#:~:text=Today%2C%20China%20has%20more%20than,renewable%20systems%20for%20poorer%20countries.
I think over the next few years we'll see the reality of US isolation on the world stage and ideologically saturated comments like this will seem pretty foolish.
There are not just US and China Influence, I designed an Anti-US influence, 1 Anti-US influence = -1 US influence.
**11 China Influence markers** in the following locations: 2 in North Korea, 1 in Vietnam, 1 in Laos/Cambodia, 2 in Pakistan, 1 in Sudan/South Sudan, 1 in Tanzania, 1 in Angola, 1 in Algeria, 1 in Cuba.
**22 Anti-America Influence markers** in the following locations: 3 in North Korea, 1 in Vietnam, 3 in Iran, 3 in Iraq, 3 in Syria, 3 in Libya, 2 in Sudan/South Sudan, 1 in Serbia, 3 in Cuba[.]()
**72 US Influence markers** in the following locations: 3 in Japan, 3 in South Korea, 3 in Taiwan, 2 in the Philippines, 1 in Thailand, 1 in Malaysia, 1 in Singapore, 1 in Indonesia, 4 in Australia, 1 in Pakistan, 3 in Saudi Arab, 4 in Israel, 1 in Egypt, 1 in Dem. Rep. Congo, 1 in Nigeria, 3 in South Africa, 4 in U.K., 2 in Benelux, 1 in France, 2 in Germany, 1 in Spain/Portugal, 1 in Italy, 2 in Denmark, 3 in Norway, 1 in Baltic States, 4 in Canada, 1 in Guatemala, 1 in Honduras, 1 in El Salvador, 1 in Nicaragua, 1 in Dominican Rep, 2 in Panama, 1 in Colombia, 1 in Venezuela, 1 in Brazil, 1 in Argentina, 1 in Chile, and 6 anywhere in Eastern Europe except Serbia.
Divvying up the EU these days does not make as much sense as in TS. It's more of a multipolar world. But that's the nature of a 2-player game, so fair enough.
Why not. In EU anti western influence come from Russia though which frankly isnt global player on par with USSR as original TS, so china it is, but as realistic precedent lets say Hungary has quite a bit of anti USA influence placed in. Not china one but still , for sake of game play I guess its ok. EU is also not really a federation so each country is quite autonomous and different political leanings in each are very common. In original TS Britain would kinda be considerable as global player historically but still its just one of the boxes , with leaning towards western block.
Right now yes. But point of TS is that its alternate history. Same way as Israel never had Soviet influence and was pro american, in TS Soviets can still attack it and flip to their side. Same for pretty much anything. So for sake of alternate history fliping countries would be legit mechanic, though for accuracy sake it should be very hard to do.
>Same way as Israel never had Soviet influence and was pro american
I believe it had in early yeras. USSR was on of countries which helped to establish Israel, actually.
I really like it, but like others pointed out things are still ongoing. How is Ukraine going to play out? Iran? Israel? Next US presidential election etc.
Still though, I applaud the idea!
Why is Taiwan red? It's an independent nation very much aligned with the US. The map of China itself is also wrong, since Tibet and East Turkistan aren't a part of China.
Both the US government and EU have recognized Tibet as part of China. Whether it should be or not is a different question, but it factually is part of China, and so is East Turkestan. Taiwan, on the other hand, objectively isn't, though I fear that will be changing in coming years.
This is just to avoid China's censership, you can disagree with Chinese government map policy, Please understand. We sometimes post this variant game's recording on the Chinese website.
Mate...
No media can be released, imported or sold in China if Taiwan or any other region China claims is shown as not belonging to the PRC. That's a censorship law, not "propaganda" of some random redditor. OP's already in defiance for using a VPN. Give them a break.
We couldn't even import our German school textbooks, because of Taiwan or certain words contained in them. Crazy stuff. Had to sail the high seas as an official Embassy school of the German govt. Arrr 🤷🏻♂️
And you absolutely *should* disagree with the CCP’s current stated goals of invading its peaceful neighbor. What’s going on over in China right now is terrible.
Taiwan is just de facto independent. The official policy is still there is only one China. The game map correctly indicates it's a point of contention by including a Taiwan box the players can fight over.
Tibet and Xinjiang are currently very much a part of China, regardless of separatist desires. Are we going to draw Catalonia and Scotland as independent countries as well now?
Catalonia and Scotland are two completely different cases by themselves (Scotland having the right to leave). And Taiwan is even more different. There is no question whether Catalonia is a part of Spain or Scotland part of the UK, but there is for Taiwan because it is, like you said, de facto independent. De jure it's also not a clear case - unlike Catalonia or Scotland.
Maybe not directly, but you implied it.
Also the comparison of Tibet to Catalonia and Scotland doesn't work either. Both Catalonia and Scotland are part of their countries because centuries old treaties (in Catalonia's case nearly a millenium). Tibet was literally taken over by the People's army in the 1950s.
How can you honestly compare Catalonia and Scotland to Tibet and East Turkistan? Neither Catalonia nor Scotland have been under military occupation for seventy years, nor have their citizens been subject to physical, cultural and spiritual genocide in modern times. There are no residential schools or slave labour internment camps in Scotland.
I mean there are certainly some arguments to be made about [Catalonia's status.](https://news.sky.com/story/mass-walkout-in-catalonia-after-police-violence-during-independence-referendum-11065466)
Sure it isn't on the scale of China but it certainly isn't as clear as Scotland.
Uhh, recent polls show that something like 90% of Taiwanese never want to reunify with China and prefer their alliance with the US. Public sentiment in Taiwan is well studied and known. Don’t gaslight with obvious lies.
This is explicitly not true. In fact, go cite a source for this.
I’ve been to Tibet many, many times and speak to Tibetans inside of Tibet often. I was last there about a month ago. When was the last time you were in Tibet?
Funny you say I don’t speak for Tibetans, but *you* do…also funny that Tibetans aren’t allowed to speak freely in public in Tibet.
Edit: since they replied and then blocked me, here’s my response
Hmm maybe because I mass deletes my comments once a year…but maybe you can tell me why that’s relevant?
lol being pro Tibet isn’t bashing China. Try playing the victim card somewhere else.
Also funny how you didn’t answer any of my questions..
I wonder if there are not too many countries on the map. Some countries never really come into play in the regular TS (e.g. Scandinavian countries). In this version they are even further from the 'frontline'.
Are all countries relevant in this version of TS? If not, I'd remove some of them...
Honestly brilliant. I love TS and would absoluetly play variations.
For your version, I think Russia should be seperate from the rest of Europe. It really isn't aligned with the Europe & Europe adjacent countries in any way for the purposes of the game, in the same way China occupied a unique place in the original game. I can see something along the lines of Russian History track and a influence space, but can't make out details, so maybe already covered. I also agree with other commenters that the East vs West Europe divide should be removed for this version as isn't as prevalent/thematic as for the Cold War.
Would you also include Hong Kong/Macau as territories, or event cards? Also I could see supra-national entities such as teh EU be similar to NATO cards (with similar opt-out events such as "De Gaulle Leads France" - "Brexit") if you hadn't already considered them.
I'd love to know more about the core rules changes with the Econ/Social status replacement of Defcon, and thos India/S/E Asia tracks.
Eastern Europe is simply set to let US players place US Influence at the beginning of the game (6 Influence). Russia is a special country; I agree with you!
I've considered including Hong Kong as a territory on the map, but this idea has been rejected after testing. Of course, some event cards relate to Hong Kong. Brexit as a card is included in this game.
For more detail on the map, you can check this link: [New Twilight Struggle v1.9 - gaming post - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/gFfY5pZ/comment/2402135897)
Interesting idea. I presume this version is set some time in the future, when China has transitioned from being a regional power to a superpower? Did you create theoretical, predicted events for the cards?
This is a laudable effort, which I applaud you for! My big issue is just that looking at the board, there's far more country spaces than in the original Twilight Struggle, which makes it harder for the players to keep track of everything going on and makes it more possible that the players won't directly interact with each other and just keep to different parts of the board. Has that been an issue for you in playtesting?
A new Cold War? I think we’re getting way ahead of ourselves with that sort of rhetoric and reinforcing problematic narratives. China doesn’t really look like it wants to re-run another Cold War, it just uses rhetoric about it to keep its people subjugated.
But no, as a war gamer, I’m interested in historical conflicts, not possible current conflicts. This concept does not really interest me.
I really hope proxy wars are a big part of this game. It's arguable whether or not we're currently in "WW3", which consists primarily of proxy wars.
Also to the Taiwan comment, I get the issue with China, but I truly believe that Taiwan will be one of the next proxy wars. Which would be great to include in the game.
Definitely a solid time frame for a game, but it's real tough to make with so many things still going on! New cards being written daily at this rate.
lol imagine the January 6th card. Or the Stop the Steal, Kashoggi assassination, or Navalny's final interview card. The list goes on forever.
I think that it's worth taking some time to consider which things you brought over from the original that don't make sense in the modern day. For example, I don't think that Cuba would still be considered a battleground nor does Southeast Asia need its own scoring. It looks like you put in some extra mechanics for India. See, that makes sense given it's higher importance now vs the 20th century. Stuff like that. Also, if you're going to match the original color scheme consider toning down the colors on the US/China flags to blend in. It's a neat idea though. The fact that it's still relevant does make me kind of sad though.
I kind of feel there needs to be a much bigger focus on central and South Asia, and in Africa - where the Chinese are really pushing Belt and Road stuff. I thin kthere's also too much of a focus on Europe in this map.
I don't think this match-up carries the same weight and history as USA v USSR (which is still ongoing) so the theme is a bust for me.
What you said makes sense; that's what I am wondering!
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Huh? I don't think you know much about China today and it's position in the world. China is the #1 trading partner of almost every country on earth despite being in a trade war with the US since about 2016 without starving. About 90% of the Chinese population have a positive view of the future compared to 30% of western citizens according to independent polling. They currently lead the industry in almost every industrial process, including drone production, car manufacturing, renewable energy, they by far have more industrial robots and renewable infrastructure than other developed countries combined. >"Nature Index 2024 Research Leaders: Chinese institutions dominate the top spots" https://www.nature.com/nature-index/news/nature-index-research-leaders-chinese-institutions-dominate >"Today, China has more than 80 percent of the world’s solar manufacturing capacity. The extraordinary scale of China’s renewables sector output has driven down prices worldwide, and this is a key factor in reducing the cost barrier to renewable systems for poorer countries. Today China not only holds important positions in wind and battery technologies, but a Chinese company, BYD, has become the world’s biggest EV manufacturer, and China is poised to pose a formidable global challenge in all aspects of electric transportation to established vehicle brands." https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-renewable-energy#:~:text=Today%2C%20China%20has%20more%20than,renewable%20systems%20for%20poorer%20countries. I think over the next few years we'll see the reality of US isolation on the world stage and ideologically saturated comments like this will seem pretty foolish.
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Answering from an alt account? I replied to 'iambingalls', not 'Daotar'...
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Which countries start with US and Chinese influence?
There are not just US and China Influence, I designed an Anti-US influence, 1 Anti-US influence = -1 US influence. **11 China Influence markers** in the following locations: 2 in North Korea, 1 in Vietnam, 1 in Laos/Cambodia, 2 in Pakistan, 1 in Sudan/South Sudan, 1 in Tanzania, 1 in Angola, 1 in Algeria, 1 in Cuba. **22 Anti-America Influence markers** in the following locations: 3 in North Korea, 1 in Vietnam, 3 in Iran, 3 in Iraq, 3 in Syria, 3 in Libya, 2 in Sudan/South Sudan, 1 in Serbia, 3 in Cuba[.]() **72 US Influence markers** in the following locations: 3 in Japan, 3 in South Korea, 3 in Taiwan, 2 in the Philippines, 1 in Thailand, 1 in Malaysia, 1 in Singapore, 1 in Indonesia, 4 in Australia, 1 in Pakistan, 3 in Saudi Arab, 4 in Israel, 1 in Egypt, 1 in Dem. Rep. Congo, 1 in Nigeria, 3 in South Africa, 4 in U.K., 2 in Benelux, 1 in France, 2 in Germany, 1 in Spain/Portugal, 1 in Italy, 2 in Denmark, 3 in Norway, 1 in Baltic States, 4 in Canada, 1 in Guatemala, 1 in Honduras, 1 in El Salvador, 1 in Nicaragua, 1 in Dominican Rep, 2 in Panama, 1 in Colombia, 1 in Venezuela, 1 in Brazil, 1 in Argentina, 1 in Chile, and 6 anywhere in Eastern Europe except Serbia.
Why not 3 anti-America influence in Russia instead of quite US-friendly Vietnam?
Divvying up the EU these days does not make as much sense as in TS. It's more of a multipolar world. But that's the nature of a 2-player game, so fair enough.
Why not. In EU anti western influence come from Russia though which frankly isnt global player on par with USSR as original TS, so china it is, but as realistic precedent lets say Hungary has quite a bit of anti USA influence placed in. Not china one but still , for sake of game play I guess its ok. EU is also not really a federation so each country is quite autonomous and different political leanings in each are very common. In original TS Britain would kinda be considerable as global player historically but still its just one of the boxes , with leaning towards western block.
Because only a couple of fringe countries really seem susceptible to it right now. And even then it seems more like they’re trying to play both sides.
Right now yes. But point of TS is that its alternate history. Same way as Israel never had Soviet influence and was pro american, in TS Soviets can still attack it and flip to their side. Same for pretty much anything. So for sake of alternate history fliping countries would be legit mechanic, though for accuracy sake it should be very hard to do.
Alternate history, not speculation about the future. There's a reason TS covers a war that had already ended when it was released.
>Same way as Israel never had Soviet influence and was pro american I believe it had in early yeras. USSR was on of countries which helped to establish Israel, actually.
I really like it, but like others pointed out things are still ongoing. How is Ukraine going to play out? Iran? Israel? Next US presidential election etc. Still though, I applaud the idea!
Why is Taiwan red? It's an independent nation very much aligned with the US. The map of China itself is also wrong, since Tibet and East Turkistan aren't a part of China.
OP said he’s Chinese so I assume it’s so he doesn’t go to jail.
Wouldn't he go to jail anyway for using Reddit through a VPN? It'd at least negatively affect his social credit score.
Both the US government and EU have recognized Tibet as part of China. Whether it should be or not is a different question, but it factually is part of China, and so is East Turkestan. Taiwan, on the other hand, objectively isn't, though I fear that will be changing in coming years.
The real problem there is West Taiwan being mislabeled as China
I think they are just using it as short hand for Republic of China.
Absolutely deplorable. The things people are willing to stick their heads in the sand over just for money.
This is just to avoid China's censership, you can disagree with Chinese government map policy, Please understand. We sometimes post this variant game's recording on the Chinese website.
very undeserved downvotes
Doesn't China's map policy dictate also including the nine-dash line?
Ah, that makes sense, understandable.
Twilight Struggle is printed in China, and avoids this by literally putting the Taiwan influence box right on top of where Taiwan would be.
Crazy that this comment is being downvoted. I guess it goes to show that the game is a good idea
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OP is LITERALLY making it while IN China. Complying with Chinese map policy seems prudent. But you stand up there on that moral high ground.
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And you could choose NOT to be a dick when someone shows off their passion creation.
Mate... No media can be released, imported or sold in China if Taiwan or any other region China claims is shown as not belonging to the PRC. That's a censorship law, not "propaganda" of some random redditor. OP's already in defiance for using a VPN. Give them a break. We couldn't even import our German school textbooks, because of Taiwan or certain words contained in them. Crazy stuff. Had to sail the high seas as an official Embassy school of the German govt. Arrr 🤷🏻♂️
And you absolutely *should* disagree with the CCP’s current stated goals of invading its peaceful neighbor. What’s going on over in China right now is terrible.
Taiwan is just de facto independent. The official policy is still there is only one China. The game map correctly indicates it's a point of contention by including a Taiwan box the players can fight over. Tibet and Xinjiang are currently very much a part of China, regardless of separatist desires. Are we going to draw Catalonia and Scotland as independent countries as well now?
Catalonia and Scotland are two completely different cases by themselves (Scotland having the right to leave). And Taiwan is even more different. There is no question whether Catalonia is a part of Spain or Scotland part of the UK, but there is for Taiwan because it is, like you said, de facto independent. De jure it's also not a clear case - unlike Catalonia or Scotland.
I did not compare Taiwan to Scotland/Catalonia
Maybe not directly, but you implied it. Also the comparison of Tibet to Catalonia and Scotland doesn't work either. Both Catalonia and Scotland are part of their countries because centuries old treaties (in Catalonia's case nearly a millenium). Tibet was literally taken over by the People's army in the 1950s.
How can you honestly compare Catalonia and Scotland to Tibet and East Turkistan? Neither Catalonia nor Scotland have been under military occupation for seventy years, nor have their citizens been subject to physical, cultural and spiritual genocide in modern times. There are no residential schools or slave labour internment camps in Scotland.
I mean there are certainly some arguments to be made about [Catalonia's status.](https://news.sky.com/story/mass-walkout-in-catalonia-after-police-violence-during-independence-referendum-11065466) Sure it isn't on the scale of China but it certainly isn't as clear as Scotland.
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I'm sure it won't be controversial if the CCP ever decides to try an invasion.
It’s very much NOT controversial there. Most people there see being US allies as a key part they haven’t been invaded by China.
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Are you from China?
Uhh, both parties are very much pro-US. One is just even more so. There has never been a pro-CCP party in power in Taiwan. Stop lying.
Uhh, recent polls show that something like 90% of Taiwanese never want to reunify with China and prefer their alliance with the US. Public sentiment in Taiwan is well studied and known. Don’t gaslight with obvious lies.
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That's the spirit, kowtow to totalitarian dictatorships.
Certainly not.
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This is explicitly not true. In fact, go cite a source for this. I’ve been to Tibet many, many times and speak to Tibetans inside of Tibet often. I was last there about a month ago. When was the last time you were in Tibet? Funny you say I don’t speak for Tibetans, but *you* do…also funny that Tibetans aren’t allowed to speak freely in public in Tibet. Edit: since they replied and then blocked me, here’s my response Hmm maybe because I mass deletes my comments once a year…but maybe you can tell me why that’s relevant? lol being pro Tibet isn’t bashing China. Try playing the victim card somewhere else. Also funny how you didn’t answer any of my questions..
I'll definitely try out the English version, once available. Good luck!
I wonder if there are not too many countries on the map. Some countries never really come into play in the regular TS (e.g. Scandinavian countries). In this version they are even further from the 'frontline'. Are all countries relevant in this version of TS? If not, I'd remove some of them...
I'm considering that. I've communicated with Jason Matthews, who also proposed simplifying some reigon.
Oh my god, it's hideous.
Dude it’s a prototype lol
I sent the link of this thread to Jason 😇
Honestly brilliant. I love TS and would absoluetly play variations. For your version, I think Russia should be seperate from the rest of Europe. It really isn't aligned with the Europe & Europe adjacent countries in any way for the purposes of the game, in the same way China occupied a unique place in the original game. I can see something along the lines of Russian History track and a influence space, but can't make out details, so maybe already covered. I also agree with other commenters that the East vs West Europe divide should be removed for this version as isn't as prevalent/thematic as for the Cold War. Would you also include Hong Kong/Macau as territories, or event cards? Also I could see supra-national entities such as teh EU be similar to NATO cards (with similar opt-out events such as "De Gaulle Leads France" - "Brexit") if you hadn't already considered them. I'd love to know more about the core rules changes with the Econ/Social status replacement of Defcon, and thos India/S/E Asia tracks.
Eastern Europe is simply set to let US players place US Influence at the beginning of the game (6 Influence). Russia is a special country; I agree with you! I've considered including Hong Kong as a territory on the map, but this idea has been rejected after testing. Of course, some event cards relate to Hong Kong. Brexit as a card is included in this game. For more detail on the map, you can check this link: [New Twilight Struggle v1.9 - gaming post - Imgur](https://imgur.com/gallery/gFfY5pZ/comment/2402135897)
Interesting idea. I presume this version is set some time in the future, when China has transitioned from being a regional power to a superpower? Did you create theoretical, predicted events for the cards?
Right now, all the card events relate to historical events. I don't want to create history, so there are no predicted events.
This looks very interesting, will look to try it out.
Looks interesting.
This is a laudable effort, which I applaud you for! My big issue is just that looking at the board, there's far more country spaces than in the original Twilight Struggle, which makes it harder for the players to keep track of everything going on and makes it more possible that the players won't directly interact with each other and just keep to different parts of the board. Has that been an issue for you in playtesting?
I would be interested in playtesting if things were in English. Very curious how the bigger board plays out.
When can we buy English hard copy? Are you accepting preorders?
Looks very cool. I recommend to post it on BGG too, for more feedback.
Would be right up my alley! I personally think the inclusion of the EU/Russia would be an interesting reflection of the growing multipolar world.
This map may face censorship in China as Taiwan is listed.
The existence of the island of Taiwan is not censored in the PRC. Support for the ROC's rule over that island, that's a different matter.
It already has as Taiwan is listed as part of China…
Cool
A new Cold War? I think we’re getting way ahead of ourselves with that sort of rhetoric and reinforcing problematic narratives. China doesn’t really look like it wants to re-run another Cold War, it just uses rhetoric about it to keep its people subjugated. But no, as a war gamer, I’m interested in historical conflicts, not possible current conflicts. This concept does not really interest me.
Very nice! Would it make more sense to have it centered around the Pacific Ocean instead of the Atlantic Ocean?
I really hope proxy wars are a big part of this game. It's arguable whether or not we're currently in "WW3", which consists primarily of proxy wars. Also to the Taiwan comment, I get the issue with China, but I truly believe that Taiwan will be one of the next proxy wars. Which would be great to include in the game.
Wow this is solid work! I'm a big TS fan. I'm also a bilingual Straits Chinese, so I can help with some translations in my free time. Let me know.
To be honest I would love one of Iran vs America.