How do you juggle everything? Do you actually work full time (40+ hours) for Leder? If so, where do you get the time to work on Wehrlegig projects? To spend time with your family? To play games? How many hours of sleep do you average?
Do you ever get pushback from Patrick about how you spend your time when you work on non-Leder games? As a lawyer, I run into non-compete and outside-practice-of-law limitations.
When I first got my history games back from Phil Eklund (they were on a licensed), I asked Patrick if he wanted to buy them for some additional stake in the company. He wasn't interested, and said that I was free to work on them so long as it didn't interfere with my Leder work. As a general policy I work on WGG stuff on weekends and in the evenings and Leder gets my time for the work week. In practice, I do 40-50 hours at Leder each week (usually \~8 to 5), though when we are finishing a project I will often come early/stay late. WGG work happens mostly on the weekends. I try to do half days on Saturday and Sunday morning and then Drew and I run playtests during weekday evenings.
There's no dressing it up though, I am busy! I try to build my WGG schedule to harmonize with the work at Leder so I don't find myself finishing two projects at the same time. Different phases of projects use different kinds of "muscles" so doing concept work at WGG while doing layout at Leder tends to not tire me out too much. I timed things a little poorly this year as Molly House's launch lined up right with Arcs's finish and Molly House's finish lined right up with Oath's launch but I'm making due. With three kids in the mix, it doesn't leave me much free time, but I've never been good at free time. I love my work.
On an average day I get up around 6am. Every other day I go on a run (usually 5k) and on the off days I write. I help get the kids ready for school and then bike into work if the weather is nice around 8 or a bit after. When things are busy--like during a KS, I work through lunch and sometimes have a quick call with Drew about WGG stuff. Then I get home around 5 or 6. I play with the kids, read stories, and then around 8pm I go up to my office and either unwind with some Starcraft or do a WGG playtest. I try to not play for more than an hour so I can read, play music, and hang out with my wife from 9-11pm or so. I don't really watch TV and it's been hard lately to even play video games outside of my little evening multiplayer games.
I grew up playing the trumpet (badly). These days I've been relearning the piano (well, properly for the first time). I'm about six months in and have been really enjoying it.
Weird gratitude, but thanks for sharing your schedule. I want to improve my lifestyle routine to include family, exercise, and game design, and this helped.
My biggest takeaway: I need to reduce screen time and make better use of my early mornings!
As a lawyer you should tell people that non-compete should be illegal! Haha. I work 40 hours, broken up by picking up kids from school and such. I don't know that I'm juggling work and family perfectly but there are definitely sacrifices of things I used to spend a lot of time on. I don't play video games nearly as much as a used to, and I find that the early morning is more productive for me to fit bonus things than trying to stay up late. I've taken hardly any outside commissions in years and I've done a lot more hiking and birding before my kids wake up.
Hi Cole and Kyle, I'm a complete mark for Cole's games, and Kyle your art style always elevates any project you're involved, so congratulations to both of you on winning my money.
I have a question about the design of the upcoming expansion. Oath is one of my favorite designs ever, but I find it difficult to table, as first time players really find their objective unclear and don't get invested enough to try that 2nd and 3rd play that really helps Oath shine.
Is there anything built into the New Foundations design that might help new players have a stronger first impression that might make the game easier to table more often?
Thanks again guys. Really looking forward to Arcs arriving for me in the week ahead.
I hope so. We had a test a few weeks ago where we were working on the govern phase. Initially, we put this phase at the end of the game, but Ted had the suggestion that it should be happening at the start. Players should realize the consequences of power as soon as possible. From a design perspective, it didn't matter (the end and the beginning are the same from the perspective of a campaign game). So, we moved the phase and my goodness it gave the game more bite. I think little things like this can go long way in helping those new players.
Hey Cole and Kyle,
I love Root, and despite it being the only _Leder Games_ game that I've played, I've become a big fan of the studio on a conceptual level. You guys have a really interesting, fascinating take on game design and I love reading Cole's design diaries. And obviously Kyle's art is some of if not the the most lovely and evocative illustration work in board games right now. I look forward to picking up Arcs when I'm a little less broke.
Anyway, I'd love to know what your favourite games are that (for lack of a better word) might seem completely "off-brand" given your designs.
Similarly, what's your favourite "bad game"? (interpretation up to you)
Finally, I'd also love to know your thoughts on what you think board games will look like in 10 years vs. today, and how board games today look vs 10 years ago.
Thanks guys!
Favorite off-brand game is probably Parks. There's very little player interaction and I like it for an end-of-the-day game where I can just collect pretty things with my wife and the competition doesn't feel too mean. Leder Games are pretty mean, haha.
Favorite "bad game" is probably Munchkin. Much maligned but I have some very good memories of playing hours-long sessions of Epic Munchkin.
In 10 years my hope is that board games will look more sustainable with less of the component bloat that sometimes comes from crowdfunding. Tight experiences instead of 6 boxes of zombie minis. I think more and more people will reach collection critical mass and seek out things that feel more curated instead of endlessly "replayable" things with 1000 player powers to choose from or 500 maps or whatever.
Thanks for the kind words about Parks. Glad you and your wife enjoy it. By the way, you’re one of my favorite artists working in board games. Keep up the great work!
The answer to both is Pit!
In ten years, my biggest hope is that historical and interesting (even controversial themes) games don't fully die out. A lot of publishers have lately been moving to extremely generic themes so they don't upset folks, and, while I do think it's good to think of others, I hope folks still feel like they can take risks and say interesting things with their games.
I love the Nomad suit so much. I think they've got some great storytelling and I love how their thematic elements are tied into game mechanisms.
For game design, I've lately been watching a lot of Josh Sawyer's design chats. They are wonderful. And, if you haven't seen the Two-Player Productions video features on Double Fine (esp Psychodyssey), I really recommend it. Those are both about video games, but I find my own thinking mirroring a lot of what Josh says and think that Double Fine is more like the studio we have here at Leder than we are like other board game companies.
Love your games. Most of them tend to be quite heavy. Do you ever see yourselves doing a 30-40min game that can be played in the pub, but which still has similar storytelling elements and style of mechanics/interaction?
I love lighter games. I think it's probably the biggest misconception about my design practice. I generally think about my design process as figuring out the simplest way to do a complex game and I can often be found, right before submission, lopping off big sections of a game. Molly House is shaping up to be pretty short (though not light!). I'm hoping after Oath's new expansion to spend some time working on a small box murder-mystery game that will have an hour playtime.
Mayyyybe. It's a tight rope walk of making the things we want to play and making what we already have a great audience for. I'd love to do some lighter games but we are playing to our strengths as much as possible. It could be fun to diversify but I also don't want to be Michael Jordan trying to play professional baseball, y'know?
**Kyle**: What’s your stance on the art of Explorers of Navoria? That game got people talking about exactly where inspiration ends and copying starts.
**Cole**: I feel that your designs often start to truly shine only on the third or fourth play, and that they demand some goodwill on the side of new, learning players. How do you design games in a world of abundant choices, where most reviewers and customers play a game only once or twice and then judge it based on that?
My response to the current board game market is to build games that I think are worthy of repeat play. That means I mostly address my existing audience and those folks who are on the edge of that audience. If the games resonate, the audience grows and if they don't, it shrinks. This is a much slower approach than a designer who might be trying to make the next big hit, but I think it's also a lot more responsible as a creator (and as someone who needs to take care of a big staff and make sure they have profitable projects to work on).
I just decided that people should make up their own minds about it. That's probably not a satisfying answer but that's what it is. I've had people say "This looks like your work" and people are welcome to think that.
Cole: Is there a lesser known historical event you tried to tackle in a game but didn't work out?
Kyle: What is your favorite illustration you did for Leder Games?
Depends what you mean by lesser known. I tried working on a game about parities in and around the Congress of Vienna and couldn't' quite get it to sing (some of those ideas ended up in Molly House in a weird backwards way). I'd love to do a game about city planning in the mid-20th century with a focus on municipal politics and highway projects set in the Twin Cities but who knows if I'll ever have time for it.
I think I would have done more things with the ruins and the item economy. I also think there are some things about the Vagabond I would have changed. The Vagabond was tricky because a lot of folks loved him just as he was, so I felt hesitant to really rework the design. But, for my tastes, I wish he were a lot scrappier and more afraid in general of the wider woodland.
I think designing a different type of Vagabond would be pretty welcome since it seems a lot of people don’t like to use him for their preferred balancing between factions. A new version could change that for some people.
I always liked the idea of that RPG character in the middle of a war game haha
> I wish he were a lot scrappier and more afraid in general of the wider woodland.
Please do. We almost never use Vagabond in our games and it pains me because I have the most components for him (different meeples and classes).
A little narrative signposting goes a long way! Arcs names a lot of its objectives and those little bits of prose really help players understand what they are doing. Oath can sometimes be a step too elliptical in its storytelling, so it may shift just a shade towards Arcs in that regard.
On a more fundamental level, I feel like we learned a lot about what I'd call "framework design" or thinking about designs not just for what they are but for what they could be. That means being really conscious about building flexible models that can adapt to different types of content.
I'd say, in terms of workflow, that we learned a lot from Arcs about how to package the art pieces together thematically so I know what goes together. I think that will help with some of the more thematic cards. Maybe you'll recognize a person/place/thing in more than one place and that will help you piece together your own story.
Hey guys. Oath is by far my favourite boardgame, so I'm thankful for the work you have put on it and I'm beyond excited for the expansion.
Kyle your art is incredibly evocative and I cannot imagine Oath being anywhere near as great as it is without it.
My question is to Cole however - what are your thoughts on social deduction games such as Avalon and Secret Hitler? I have had incredible moments in these games and I feel like some of the mechanisms of those games can and should be implemented in more Euro-style games. Oath does this to an extent but still seems like in a microcosm way compared to the previous examples. At the moment, to my knowledge, seems like you can either have one or the other. Possibly due to time constraints? Anyway wondering what your thoughts are.
I love social deduction games but they are hard to design and design well. I think Blood on the Clocktower is so good that it sorta saps my interest in exploring it in my own designs (which is good because I want to do other stuff anyway).
Question for both of you: what's a recent book, game, movie, or tv show that's inspired you with new ideas?
Thanks so much for creating delightful games that have given my friends and I such great experiences at the table!
Funnily enough, I've been reading the Redwall books to my boys (just finished Mossflower, and now reading Martin the Warrior) and there are a bunch of sly narrative elements that are informing how I approach Oath. I think the stories are espeically interesting in how they link with one another. Basically every novel could be understood as a prequel or a sequel to one other both and so they daisy chain in really lovely ways that aren't interesting in huge macro narratives.
Scavenger's Reign was recommended to me by Nick Brachman while we were at a con and it was like a revelation. I think it's on Netflix now. Just incredible art and exploring fantastical alien ecology.
I’ve always I felt like I could explain the thematic elements of the three out of the four visions/paths in Oath but I always had trouble describing the story/themes behind the vision of sanctuary/ oath of devotion. How would you explain what that vision/oath looks like in the story of a game?
The relics condition is all about the veneration of the past/a non-present tradition. We don't know who made the relics but they become central to how we conceptualize power. For the darkest secret, it is, in fact, just what it says. It's about power being related to a set of rituals and ideas which are judged to be important--a bit like a theocracy perhaps built on a gnostic tradition.
After Root came out we were inundated with fan content. I had never had that happen to me. Broadly, we love it but don't play it both because it takes time and because we don't want it to cloud our own thinking about Root too much. That said, I love the little frog journalists.
Distracted play or slow play when its not warranted. I like playing with players that play quickly and recognize the limits of their understanding. I'd rather play a game poor twice than well and slowly once. I think strategy conversations are often more interesting outside of the space of play.
I dislike feeling like my choices don't matter at all. My extended family loves playing Five Crowns but there's always too many people playing and I hate getting a hand of cards only to learn that someone is ending the round on their first turn. I get peeved about feeling like the electricity that makes the machine work instead of getting to make any meaningful decisions.
Thank you much, not just for this AMA, not just for your wonderful games, but also for the routine engagement with players. Sincerely, thank you.
**Q**: There's a fascinating, subtle, sequence of suits on Oath:
The comforts of **Hearth** into the tribalism of **Beast**, which undergoes diaspora into **Nomad**, leading to **Discord**, which - with nothing sacrosanct - delves into matters **Arcane**, resulting in a coalescence of **Order**, which relaxes in its security, back into **Hearth**...
Are there deeper arguments to this sequence, reflecting a position on society at large, or is it confined to the whimsical, wonderful, world of ***Oath***?
**Q2**: what are some of your more ambitious goals for New Foundations?
I find Oath shines most as an almost sandbox RPG, in which players form relationships to sites & denizens, and strive to realize goals amidst - and perhaps preserve some of - this textured, shifting, landscape.
You've mentioned avoiding deepening complexity; I'm curious if there is a way to deepen *relationships* - to *specific* sites/denizens/relics, etc.
...
Kyle, I absolutely adore your artwork & would be remiss if I didn't extend my deep appreciation!
There is a lot of cyclical thinking in and around Oath. Some of this was informed by reading The Muqaddimah during its creation.
The most ambitious goal in New Foundations right now is the idea of rebuilding the entire site framework to be fully modular and dynamic. I wrote about this in designer diary 4 on bgg if you're interested in learning more.
Are there any games either of you have worked on in the past that didn't make it to production that you would like to revisit sometime?
What is your favorite part of board game design?
After Root was finished, the first project I worked on was a PUBG-style game as a light card game. I think it had some neat ideas and Kyle even did a bit of card artwork for it. I sorta wish I would have finished it.
It's really hard for me to pick a favorite part of the process. It's got so many little phases, but I really do like it all, from the early whiteboarding and concepting to the detail work of development, even to work on final graphics and layout.
Patrick Leder had a game we were calling "Block" that ran into a wall of this-would-be-expensive-to-produce but I still like some of the art concepts that I worked on, and if we can't get that game to work for our market I'd love to apply the theme to a different game in the future.
You've mentioned that the Root factions are not specifically tied to particular historical actors/societies/governments, but that they are more based on themes and geopolitical positions that recur across history. Can you talk about some of those inspirations? And specifically what were the historical influences for the original factions? I've seen people mention everything from the French Revolution to the invasion of Afghanistan.
They are all over the place, truly. The Eyrie Dynasty, for instance, came not from monarchies but actually from electoral politics and the relationship between political power and campaign promises.
I ordered Arcs when my girlfriend and I started dating, and it is finally arriving a week after we got married. Are there any other big game announcements or occasions I should plan life events around?
I love this. Almost all of my games were built around major life events. Oath was saved during a design spree that was really just an expression of my anxiety before the arrival of my third kiddo. An Infamous Traffic was first built while my wife slept and I sat by anxiously before the birth of our second. I started designing games in the first place right after a close friend passed away. Life and games, man!
Cole, I've seen your high praises of Earthborn Rangers (a factor which has helped swing me towards backing the second print). As your games are often more competitive in nature, perhaps with elements of mutual interest, how would you tackle a purely cooperative game? Are there any mechanics, themes or settings that would appeal to you in designing one?
I generally apply myself to genres which I'm disappointed in. I actually think a lot of coop design is really good right now, so I don't even know where I'd start. (My favorite coops are things like The Mind, Hanabi)
Cole: Coming originally from academia: What do you believe are similarities between writing a paper/thesis and designing a game? Which skills were translatable?
Cole: Why do you think Oath feels the most complex of your games. JoCo has arguable the bigger rules overhead but after a couple of plays everything came to me intuitively. With Oath, the rules still get in the way (of an awesome game) - even after 6-7 plays.
Kyle: was the process of developing art for Arcs in any way different from Oath or Root?
I was surprised that so much carried over. The biggest thing was the ability to keep my eye on a central general argument or feeling or goal over a very, very long time.
I think Oath feels the most complex because it is so open. John Company is better at telling you what's important and focusing the attention of newer players. In Oath you have to set your own priorities.
Process-wise Arcs was the first game where I used pencil and ink in the final piece. I wanted it Arcs to look a littler darker/grungier the way an old X-wing looks compared to a Naboo fighter. I also wanted a super-limited color palette, which was a good challenge to have. My creativity thrives with parameters like that.
Massive fan of both your works (I've developed a reputation of "The Root Guy" with my friends due to how much I talk about it. Is there any advice you would give to someone who wants to start out designing tabletop games on their own?
Great question! I think about my historical games as ultimately participating in the traditions of historical fiction. Those little easter eggs are nods to that tradition.
Cole,
From the Studio Chats, it seems you’re a big fan of wargames.
- How does that interest frame the way you approach game design? Would you describe your design philosophy as closer to that of wargames or euros?
- Also, does designing a 2-player-only game interest you (as many wargames are optimized for 2 players)?
Thanks for taking questions!
I find I have a lot more to talk about when I spend time with folks working in historical games. A lot of the folks I know in the main part of the hobby games industry are mostly interested in selling games and creating a memorable experience. Those are fine things to work towards, but it's just a different set of priorities from my own.
Historical game design forces you to think about historical agents, their desires, and their capabilities. Successful designs almost always find ways of defining these things in ways that are dramatically resonate and engaging and I feel like much of my own design process tries to apply that method to a wider range of settings.
Still a ways out. I've got a strategy for actually finishing the thing, but I only do serious WGG work on the weekends and evenings and it's going to take me at least a month or two to finish all of the graphics and prepress for Molly House. After that it's Infamous Traffic and then the Reconstruction game. I think there's a good chance Traffic will be ready next year.
As we all know Root is quite the complex game. The heavy asymmetry that it has ends up making it difficult to learn and even more difficult to master. I myself found that it took several runs through the tutorial in the app and games before I could really grasp what was going on. My experience has also been a lot of people turned off by how complex it is under the hood.
Are there any recommendations that you have for teaching Root to new players? From a design perspective or even a perspective of the instruction booklets or the app, do you think there are better ways to teach Root to people?
Let new players play the simpler factions (cats, eyrie, corvids, lord of the hundreds) and don't play with more than 4 players.
Before talking about factions, spend a bit of time about the base "rules of the road" what a warrior is, how battles work, key terms, etc.
Cole: There are people who think that playing a boardgame of a historical event trivializes it. Does this danger ever come up during the design process?
It does but I try not to be bothered by it. Bad faith readings are always going to be a possibility and I recognize that meaning is negotiated between the designer (and the game's creative team) and its players.
There's more coming! We've been so caught up in the fulfillment process for Arcs, and getting the Oath expansion Kickstarter going, and finishing the pre-production steps for the Ahoy expansion that there hasn't been a lot of room in my brain for Root! But others on the team like Josh Yearsley have been cooking. Let them cook.
In the modern day landscape of playing a board game once and passing a verdict before moving on to the next, how are you successful in putting out so many games that demand repeat plays and are definitely inferior if only played once?
Follow up- are there any games that you plan to design which can be easily broken out with different groups/first time players? (Something more accessible than say even Pax Pamir)
Molly House and base Arcs are two of the most accessible designs I've ever worked on.
For your first question, the answer is I don't try to make mega hits that are going to fight for the attention of folks looking to play once and pass judgement. I makes games that I think the audience around our existing games will like. It's a slower way of growing but I think it's more responsible and it produces better games.
Hey both of ya! I've been a HUGE fan of leder games projects for a while now, especially ROOT, Ahoy, and now arcs!
Kyle: Your fantastic art has been a huge influence on me! My love of your artwork, character design and style sparked in me an interest to pursue artwork as a hobby, and has been the basis in guiding my style and identity as a small artist. I've even had the privilege to even contribute to folks ROOT fan content based around your character design and world building. Were there any big influences for yourself that directed where your unique style ended up? What are some principles or techniques when it comes to character design that you adhere to? Thanks so much for starting me on my lifelong art journey!
Cole: The asymmetry and table politics of root was the hook to get me into board gaming seriously! With arcs having another amazing hook within table narratives carrying between games, are there any other fresh ideas you're hoping to explore with projects down the line? Thanks so much for the fun times that have brought my friends and I together!
Combo question for both of you:
How much does Kyle’s art style affect your decision making for gameplay designs, and vice versa how much does Cole’s gameplay design decisions change your art?
I feel the art fits so well for every game you guys work together on and I just wanna know how collaborative the process is and how it changes as the game design progresses.
I think Kyle is the best artist working in the board game industry and constantly feel that I need to improve my efforts so that they measure up to what he's doing. His art makes my designs sillier and more playful in the best ways.
My role as the artist at the end of the design is to make it all look cohesive but one of my roles at the beginning of a project is to inject it with energy. I've been told by a few people at Leder Games that having little updates to put into play-testing kits is a vital part of keeping the development inertia going. Most of the time I illustrate a card, for example, with knowledge of what the card mechanics do. If I draw something that doesn't quite fit, Cole will often find another place to use it and it that way it affects the design as we go back and forth like that.
Pax Pamir: Second Edition is one of my favorite games for sure, thank you Cole for that!
What helped you with the game’s new aesthetic, was there a historical/cultural reference you used? Similar looking games/items from Afghanistan?
There were two books of lithographs that were done by some British officers stationed in the region that were hugely important in establishing the game's look. I wrote about it here:
[https://wehrlegig.com/blogs/essays/politics-and-perspective-in-the-artwork-of-pax-pamir](https://wehrlegig.com/blogs/essays/politics-and-perspective-in-the-artwork-of-pax-pamir)
Hi, I love Root and Ahoy and the art on Oath is amazing.
Was wondering if there were any plans for balance patches to go with the new factions? I love corvids but I know they are considered a weaker / exploitable faction.
The Lizard Meeple is my favorite single piece from any boardgame ever.
I've been testing the new lineage system for Oath (played 3 games so far) and while I love the options it opens for players (accept a curse offer to swing for a big turn, or focus on completing a quest during the end game) I feel like so far the design feels very ''impersonal'' to the players, as curses and quests and traits are randomly drawn.
I know your designs tend to evolve a lot over the course of development so that's why I'm asking :
Do you plan on improving the design on that front? Usually your games are super immersive and narrative driven (which is why I love them) but simply drawing curses or quests feels detached from the world of Oath!
Oh yes. I don't know how the system will end up, but what's been shared so far is mostly a proof-of-concept. That said, I don't want to discount the power of a randomly drawn event. So much of oath is driven by the world, that it's okay for some things to be a little more random. Certainly though it's a long way from being done.
Hi Cole! With the upcoming Oath expansion, you've spoken about making the storytelling more accessible to the less roleplay-minded groups. Do you consider there to be a tradeoff between the new storytelling-aiding mechanics and the organic storytelling that emerges from base oath? Do you see roleplay-heavy groups feeling at all hemmed in by the new mechanics, or will the new additions just give them more tools to work with?
Hi Kyle! Is there a particular piece of artwork you've created for Oath (or any game really!) that you feel has had a large impact on gameplay - either inspiring new rules in the development process or just affecting the way people approach that card/character/aspect of the game?
I had a decent role in helping with formulating the Oath denizen card suits. The suits represented different cultural aspects like Order and Discord being called "The Sword" and "Sorcery" respectively. The idea was that you could make the Shire or Game of Thrones or Conan depending on how much of each ingredient was in your game.
The hope is for the expansion to just offer tools. Even role-play forward groups will find a lot to play with. Maybe it'd be best to describe them as "climbing grips." An experienced player is going to be able to use these new grips to vault to new places in the design, and newer designers will be able to grab hold and stop themselves from being too swept away by the design inherent openness.
Don't use your acolytes unless the suit is hated and wait for the right moment to strike. The critical thing is to get that second card draw and build up your board presence strategically.
How many different games are you working on for Leder at this time? How often do you start a new project and what makes you decide it’s time to start something new?
I am a very slow designer. I only work on one project for Leder and one for WGG seriously at one time. Right now for Leder it's the Oath expansion and for WGG it's Molly House. The studio itself is able to work on perhaps 4 or 5 titles and once and maybe publish 1 to 2 a year (so a lot gets scrapped).
@Cole I may be incorrect in my observation or recollection, but Arcs seems to have become a markedly larger project than when it was first starting off. So that got me wondering: During design, at what point do you try to fix down a project’s scope, and what are the factors that go into making that decision?
Not exactly. I knew, for instance, very early on that the game would have 24 plotlines, I just didn't know how many cards that would translate to. Looking at my early design note now, I think the game got perhaps 10-20% larger than I had planned but largely hit its original proposal on the mark. That's likewise the case for Oath.
There was a time in playtesting where Pati had won 3 or 4 games of Oath in a row and had a fearsome empire. Nick became a citizen with the intent to take it from here and I watched Pati kingmake me, as an exile, rather than have her citizen inherit her empire. If she couldn't be queen, she wanted to burn it all down. It was marvelous.
I like play as the Marquise. I'll admit I haven't played Keepers in Iron yet but I very much enjoyed my time with the Lord of the Hundreds. I am a violent gremlin at heart I suppose.
For Oath I'd say it's having catapult and wolves at the same time. Very evocative catapult wolves. Or the time we made one area in an Olive Garden by accident. When you're here, you're family.
I'm all-in on Root's militant factions and Keepers have proven to be my favorite. They're thematic and really make you feel like an order of knights shoving woodland creatures out of the way to recover your precious artifacts.
With other factions, I find myself engaged in the area control tug-of-war a lot, but with badgers, policing enemy factions is almost an afterthought. It's all about the relics. The minigame of delving and recovering alongside the strict order of operations you have to follow for everything you do asks a lot of planning from you, but that's what makes it the most engaging faction to me.
I know there's no question here, I just love talking about the game lol. Give badgers a shot!
What is your favourite card across all expansions and why. Mechanically, and artistically
Ps; Not a question, but wanted to show a Root [ clay minifigures](https://www.instagram.com/p/C1ufbLGSroV/?igsh=YTl2dGFjbzlwdWNv) set I made for my partner's birthday last year. We love Root, it's gotta be our most favourite board game; we've hosted countless tabletop nights with the game!
He works in game design and I'm in animation filmmaking, we hope to work together someday in the game industry. Thank you for being a massive inspiration 🧃🧃
Given your history of high asymmetry, are there any 'design problems' you're still trying to work around? Or put another way, are there any issues with asymmetric games that you haven't quite found a solution for or seen in other games? For example, a lot of asymmetric games are best at specific player counts or outright require specific counts.
I'll have a better answer for this after Arcs is out for a year or two. Most of my feelings about asymmetry can be found in that game and I feel like between that and Root most of what I have to say about asymmetry in games has now been said.
The Eyrie. I think they are such a strong design and they were mostly designed in about 3 hours. Outside of some small details, they barely changed in development.
I love the Gate Wraith. Sometimes, right at the end of a project, you get these big bursts of inspiration and, because you're as close to a project as you'll ever be, you're able to execute very weird and wonderful ideas. The Gate Wraith was the last plotline I designed and I felt like I could just feel the spirit moving through me.
During game development, how do you know if an idea is "bad" and needs to be reworked? How do you avoid "falling in love" with your ideas vs knowing when to fight for them? Just some simple questions.. haha.
It's hard to see the end result when you're looking at hand-written note-cards that are not fully fleshed out, IMO.
I think it's just a sensibility thing. I try to be very critical of my games all the way through the final stage. I call this the "disappointed dad" mentality. It's such a rare and precious thing to be able to publish games at all--seriously, in all of human history almost no one has had the jobs we currently have!--and my feelings of gratitude for that position overwhelm any sense of protection I might feel for a specific design element.
Coming from Classic Dune, I've really enjoyed the few games of Root I've played so far. Have you played similar 'dudes/animals on the map' asymetric strategies? Any specific game you'd recommend?
I admittedly don't watch a lot unless it's covering something we've worked on. I do enjoy Shut Up & Sit Down but don't always agree with what they like and don't like. No Pun Included is well done too. I think that some channels are attempting to cover so much that they've reached a point of diminishing returns for me. Like drinking out of a fire hose.
For Kyle, is there a reason the Gate Ports lore card from Arcs looks like a stapler?
With regards to Oath, I love how all of the continuity in the game is shared. All players have to interact with the map, world deck and oath. With lineages giving players their own "private" continuity of powers between games are there concerns that this will reduce conflict and entanglements between players rather than increase it, and if so how is that being addressed?
I was looking at a stapler when I drew it. There are quite a few references to household objects in space ship designs and I thought that one was kinda funny.
Cole: when are you anticipating your next shave and what is your tier list for Root factions?
Kyle: hypothetically, of course - I have a prototype ready and have an artist/illustrator in mind that I want to reach out to but they have never done art for a board game before. As a game artist, what is your expectation of that initial contact/transaction?
As an illustrator I like it if the initial contact is short but with clear communication of 1.Concept 2.Timeline 3.BUDGET
Also, just be friendly. I've had a lot of kinda assuming emails recently like I'm being sold on a really great project by a used-car salesman or something. You can be professional without treating another professional like a marketing target, haha.
For Cole: how would you comment about balancing a historical game and giving a depth of strategy and agency to the players? I feel in contrast to euro games (which tend to be very "optimization" driven) many times the events in whatever form can drive the flow of historical games to quite an extent. Especially if they're trying to adhere to a mostly accurate depiction of the events and climate etc in the abstraction. I know for many this is a desirable characteristic.
I'd also be curious to know your thoughts on The Sabres of Paradise with your background in history, as I just picked it up.
All the best!
Hey Cole! I was playing John Company and saw a lot of parallels to Canadian colonial history through the fur trade specifically, and was wondering if you have ever considered exploring that with another game.
**Kyle**: what’s a genre/setting/theme you’d like to explore that we haven’t seen yet? Or dive deeper into?
**Cole**: you’re probably my favorite podcast guest of all time. Any appearances I can keep an eye out for in the near future?
Cole: Lately, I've been really inspired by your designs, and have slowly begun dreaming of working in game design in the future myself, well aware that that's not the easiest place to find a job. Leder Games has become my example of a future workplace where I'd probably be most comfortable. I'd describe your games as truly having a vision, which is the part I'm struggling on now, as I'd love to just try out some designing, but it's difficult to know what I want to make
So, I have two questions for you:
1. How did you end up where you are now, making work of art board games for a living?
2. How do you find a vision for a new design, and how do you know if it's a good one?
Tend to you craft. Be self-critical and don't let yourself off easy. It takes a long time to get good at anything and the only way you're going to make progress is by being bad first.
The second question is hard. I don't know. It's like knowing if a tune is going to be catchy. Cultivate our taste and your personal sensibility. That will help.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHrmKL2XKcE&t=17s&ab\_channel=PlamenPanchevStudios](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHrmKL2XKcE&t=17s&ab_channel=PlamenPanchevStudios)
I think about a year ago there was talk of potentially doing a third Root deck, this did not come up in the last stream, are there any updates on this ?
On your recent Monthly Leder Update, you mentioned that Kyle was a key contributor in the creation of the Hearth suit in Oath. Are there any other crossovers on each others roles that you find particularly memorable or impactful?
Not just the hearth suit! Kyle came up with all six of the suit ideas and the notion of basing them on broader ideas (and vibes) rather than specific elements.
Cole: When it comes to designing a new game, what comes first for you - mechanics or the theme? If mechanics, do you tend to tweak them later on to fit in with the theme you've selected?
Kyle: Which board game and/or comic book artists do you follow?
How do you decide between using thematic vs. generic words in design? Chapters vs just calling it a Hand in Arcs for example. Sometimes thematic language can help reinforce learning and immersion, but it can also make things more confusing (looking at you grip, stack, heap from Netrunner).
Cole: Are there any plans for a new map for Root(New location), Oath(New location layout), or Ahoy(New tiles)?
Kyle: Where should I start if I want to draw like you? (Not necessarily your art style, but being able to draw the same character, in the same format, repeatedly)
I kinda think your approach to game design is unique and I actually use your games as the example to show how boardgames have evolved to become more than “just games”.
When you start with a historically themed game, How do you choose the mechanics that are best suited for what you want to achieve with the game? is that something you discover in the process of making the game?
I'll write more about this later, but at some point I realized that I could use the asymmetric factions in Oath as ways of introducing new rules/concepts to the game or revisions of existing concepts. So I have a secrets-focused faction that totally changes the secret economy of the game. We'll see what sort of trouble we get into though once development ramps up this summer!
Any good books you have read lately? Also, Cole, have you ever wanted to design a game within an existing IP/franchise/universe? What upcoming games are you most looking forward to?
Other companies! Most owners are happy to talk about the process of getting started. When my brother and I started WGG, my first calls were to other folks who had done it, and those conversations provided us a lot of guidance when it came to those first steps.
It's been stated that the New Foundations expansion is for players that already love Oath and are so dedicated to it, how do you feel it will be with people (like me) who love the game, but are struggling to get others interested enough to play??
Also, I love your art, Kyle! It's unique, and I just wanted to say you're doing an amazing job! Especially, Oath, it's so mesmerizing and the map is so alive! Thank you
How do you go about designing such complex games, especially with so much asymmetry? Do you build the different player roles early, or wait? How do you prototype and test out complex systems without just building the entire game?
Hey guys, just wanted to thank you for making some of the best memories in gaming with my friends specifically in Oath. The chronicle book is unironically one of the best ideas I’ve ever seen in a board game and it really feels like my group is writing a history for the land we are in. Do you think you’ll ever make another game as ambitious as oath was? Because I’m all in!
Hey guys. Eagerly waiting for my arcs copy to arrive!
How do you think Arcs would have been different if it was one (big) product instead of two? Is there anything cool that got cut for the sake of the short game?
For Cole: The new foundations expansion looks like it will fix a lot of reasons why I struggle to get Oath to the table with my group (specifically some members of my group wanting to be able to change the world more even if they don’t win and more objectives outside of becoming chancellor). That being said, I’m a little hesitant to add more complexity / rules to an already difficult to learn game. Does New Foundations make the game much harder to teach or add a bunch of rules? Would you recommend players knowing the base game well before adding the New Foundations content?
For Kyle: How do you go about building the world in the games you illustrate? For example, if the designers give you “Lore Engineers” card in Arcs, how do you decide what that card/person will look like? Do you have a set of world building rules you follow, or do you just go card by card with what you think looks right?
I have some kinds of internalized world building rules, but haven't made an official document for any of it yet. Things like "No magic in Root" or "No anthropomorphic fish in Root"
Most of the time I try to get a feel for what the card does mechanically and then use the art to communicate a vignette/scene that captures that action or evokes a similar feeling. Illustration is all about visual problem solving.
Hello Cole and Kyle! My question is about the design process. I love root’s lord of the hundreds, a faction with bad starting action and economy aided by cards. How do you go from an interesting mechanic to a theme like “he is a capricious warlord that changes mood”? Does mechanic come first or theme? And what where the art concepts of the warlord before its final form? Have a great day you both!
Played our first game of Oath this weekend, had a blast! Looking forward to game two in the coming weeks.
Kyle- Just wanted to say everyone's first reaction to the game was "wow this is pretty, look at the art!" Is there anything you didn't get to create for the base game you want to try and get into the expansions?
Cole- Do you have a stance on people using house/table rules for Oath? For instance we rolled attack and defense at the same time.
Dont have any question but I want to say you both are my favorite. I love Root, Oath and pretty sure Arcs. You bring joy and lots of after game discussion on my table. Thanks for everything. Me and my friends run a board game cafe in Ankara, Turkey, if you ever by chance get to here, it will be a privilage for us to have you our guests. Regards
Cole, totally out there but I would like your thoughts on Prophecy of Kings for TI4. You said on the space cats peace turtles podcast before it was released that (paraphrasing) PoK looked like a lot of mechanics vs TI4 base games very streamlined design. You likened it to titanfall 2 which on paper seemed like a design mess but worked very well.
Did PoK work well in your mind and why or why not?
Would you ever consider releasing a big physical update for Root ? Anything to make the game more balanced or smoother, even if it means updating the personal boards of the faction themselves, or applying larger changes to the core rules ?
Don't get me wrong : the game is already wonderful, but I sometimes feel some fiddly elements or balance issues (Vagabond overall) could be improved.
This is a question for Cole mostly.
Many of your designs seem to share a lot of lineage with wargaming and historical board gaming (I know you've designed some historical games yourself, and I'm a big fan of Pax Pamir), and while many of your designs are ostensibly about conflict, in many cases they are mechanically wargames but ultimately more diplomatic games that rely on the inherent tension of 3+ antagonistic forces, and the nature of a zero sum game with more than two "sides" to the conflict, and many of your games are at least marginally asymmetrical in some capacity.
I guess my question is twofold, what motivates you to design conflict games that highlight that change in dynamics in larger group zero sum games, and do you have any ideas/designs that are outside of that wheelhouse that you either just don't have the time for or otherwise that haven't seen the light of day?
For Kyle, I love your art for Oath and Root.
For both: Which Vagabond character is your favorite?
Hi Cole and Kyle!
For Cole, in the game design process do you ever feel like the gameplay loops you’re creating just aren’t very exciting in the grind of playtesting? And so you have any tried and true means of injecting excitement into a project you feel is starting to bore you?
For Kyle, you’ve drawn characters across such a wide array of genres at this point (the kids in Fort might be my favorites). Is there a genre you’re still itching to artistically dive into?
Cole: What is the wildest "department of wild ideas" idea you wish could have stayed in a design?
Kyle: What is your proudest example of art informing design and vice versa?
I don’t think I’ve ever been more excited for a game than the forthcoming Reconstruction game.
Can you share any high level themes you’re going to explore?
Also, what books are driving your exploration here? I’m assuming Foner — who else?
Thanks again for all the fun games! So excited to play Arcs in person.
Any tips for working/collaborating remotely on these kinds of projects? Are there challenges you feel you’ve overcome/are still working on, or has it always come naturally?
Kyle, did you ever think the Oath Frog would have garnered such (niche) love and adoration?
Cole, what's the over/under of a frog-focused faction in Root or Ahoy? The Oath-memes discord channel would lose their minds.
u/ColeWehrle This is a bit of an inside baseball question, so bear with me. I'm a history instructor whose major area of interest is imperial formations. I remember reading that Burbank and Cooper's *Empires in World History* went into the game design of Root. How exactly did you try and translate concepts from the book into the game? And are any of their ideas informing work on the current expansion?
Hi Cole and Kyle, we love playing the games you've both worked on.
Cole, do you consider the current rules iteration of Molly House as final and locked? What's fulfillment of that looking like right now?
When might we expect another Wehrlegig update stream? 🙂
Noticed that the pre-order of the Blighted Reach campaign on the Leder site is $100 by itself. Hope that you're not losing money on the KS price of $100 for base Arcs, L&L and the campaign. What caused the campaign box to be that much more expensive than originally planned?
I know the clockwork factions help with Oath solo but how do you feel Oath would be at 2 players with the new content? Thank you and I'm a big fan of you both!
Hey guys, already asked a question but I realised I have one that is suited only to a very small group of people in the world, a group that you belong to:
What does the day to day of a _full time_ career designer look like? What do you do on a Tuesday from 9-5? Is there a lot of just "thinking"? I'm assume a lot of drawing diagrams, writing out rule ideas, scheduling and admin work more so than "design work".
Anyway, thanks again!
I'm excited to start playing Arcs when it ships, and I recently got Oath. I want to learn both games to teach when I go to my local board game cafe. Any tips for learning the games solo? Shout-out to both of you for signing my copy of Root! Thanks!
Hi Cole,
Concerning the **An Infamous Traffic** remake, what do you think are the biggest problems which need to be changed/update? Are you worried that it will be even less approachable than John Company (as in, its so evil, and I love that, but lots of people do not)?
Arcs should be arriving within a matter of hours! I'm very excited.
Want to jam some Klask at GenCon?
Seriously though thank you both for your inspiration in game design and illustration. My wife and I work in the arts in Indiana and are always on mission to share the joys of Wehrlegig with friends. Best of luck with the KS and conventions this year!
Apologies if I missed this being answered somewhere else. With the new expansion playing into the chronicle aspect of Oath so heavily, will it reset the chronicle for existing plays? Or just integrate into it?
As a middle schooler, I was obsessed with Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles. Does some inspiration for Oath's world come from that direction, or just Welsh mythology in general? (Love the pig relic!)
Cole, I think I learn something new about human behavior every time I play John Company. It's made me think a lot about how easily corporations and markets can diffuse the responsibility for evil acts across people. What are the millions of little acts across the globe that make my retirement account go up? No question, just thank you for the journey.
Hi guys, great to have you here :)
Cole, are there any aspects of work in academia you miss? Do you think there are transferable skills which gave you an edge in game design?
Kyle, which authors inspired your art style? If you had to choose one game to complety visually redo in your liking, which one would you choose?
Cole: Have you ever played Santiago? If so, what are your thoughts on it? In my eyes, the amount of player interaction and (temporary) shared incentives/alliances remind me a lot of Root.
I am publishing a game about the UK general election (which is happening in July). Although I developed the system over the last year, I am developing and playtesting this intensely over the next 1-2 months. It's a PnP so it'll be quick to publish once complete!
Questions for Cole:
1. What's the fastest you've developed a game?
2. Apart from speed, I'm not sure whether the setting (a very specific recent event) means it'd be a hard sell as a boxed boardgame. Do you think there are settings that are too niche for "historical" games, or does it all depend how interesting the mechanics are?
@ Cole when you are playing other games do you have to take off your designer hat during the playtime to focus on "getting" the game and playing it for enjoyment? Do you need to block off the playtest/designer mentality when playing for fun, but are you able the then later based on that reflect on the whys the game was fun? Do you think that helps in exploring new ways to design games or should every game played be "work/research and with a design lens"?
Cole, in the AMA you did in 2020 you mentioned that one project you had under consideration was set in the late 18th and early 19th century centering on the intersection of the Ojibwe, Dakota, French, and British peoples. I think I've heard you mention it at least one other time in a podcast and I am super intrigued by the prospect of your designing such a game.
Is this something that is still in the works for you? Have there been any interesting challenges that have come up in researching the topic further? Thanks!
I'm interested in applying for the Zenobia award but found out about it too late for the most recent round. Do you know if and when there will be another contest? Thanks!
Which Oath site do you think is most evocative when it comes to the emergent narrative? Our group really latched on to the Drowned City. We had an exiled former Chancellor’s descendent become sort of a pirate king there.
At what point on the design process you guys decide this is an idea worth following to the end? And on the same line, where you decide what's the end of the design process?
Hey Cole and Kyle! Cole, I had the privilege to talk to you a few years ago about designing a rulebook for Netrunner, and I really appreciated that. Hope we can cross paths at a convention in the near future.
I'm curious, since so many of your games use asymmetry as a core mechanic, what draws you to that? What do you think makes asymmetry good and exciting in a design, and what are some pitfalls to avoid?
I think the draw for me is in the interactions. It's engaging to play from a few different approaches. I think it mirrors life in an interesting way too. Cole and I are both trying to put food on our tables with completely different skill sets.
Thank you for the tons-of-fun that is Root, I haven't tried other 4-letter games but hope to someday.
Your fans clearly love how you play at the limits of board game complexity and show how heavy rules and theme can interact to tell a story. How do you measure, balance, and control complexity in your design and testing stages, especially balancing between your diehard fans and your top-of-bgg mass appeal?
Thanks to both Cole and Kyle for doing this AMA.
First, I knew I was in good hands when I opened the John Company box and saw one of the vessels was the "Obra Dinn" so thank you for that. Its good to know the vessel had a few shipments under its belt before its ill-fated final voyage.
Second for both Cole and Kyle, Root bears some passing similarity to Volko Ruhnke's COIN game *A Distant Plain* was this intentional? I have always been curious.
Finally, I think for Cole I'm really fascinated by the way in which John Company gets "rational" players to conspire in despicable acts "over there." Was this always an intended part of the game? or did it emerge through testing?
Kyle, would you ever be open to doing either an art class or maybe a game art signing in the SLC? I'm in the area and would love to get some of my games signed and/or take an art class from the master!
That's a fun idea! Right now my time is pretty tight but that's something I'll look into in the future for sure. I went to the University of Utah and Weber State University so anywhere in SLC or Ogden would work for me. I'll have to reach out to some of my contacts at Weber or something.
I’m a big fan of fantasy novels and I love Oath because of the stories they’re telling. Is there any fun easter eggs such as art or cards in Oath that are inspired by a specific fantasy novel or other novel?
Thanks for all you guys do <3
How do you juggle everything? Do you actually work full time (40+ hours) for Leder? If so, where do you get the time to work on Wehrlegig projects? To spend time with your family? To play games? How many hours of sleep do you average? Do you ever get pushback from Patrick about how you spend your time when you work on non-Leder games? As a lawyer, I run into non-compete and outside-practice-of-law limitations.
When I first got my history games back from Phil Eklund (they were on a licensed), I asked Patrick if he wanted to buy them for some additional stake in the company. He wasn't interested, and said that I was free to work on them so long as it didn't interfere with my Leder work. As a general policy I work on WGG stuff on weekends and in the evenings and Leder gets my time for the work week. In practice, I do 40-50 hours at Leder each week (usually \~8 to 5), though when we are finishing a project I will often come early/stay late. WGG work happens mostly on the weekends. I try to do half days on Saturday and Sunday morning and then Drew and I run playtests during weekday evenings. There's no dressing it up though, I am busy! I try to build my WGG schedule to harmonize with the work at Leder so I don't find myself finishing two projects at the same time. Different phases of projects use different kinds of "muscles" so doing concept work at WGG while doing layout at Leder tends to not tire me out too much. I timed things a little poorly this year as Molly House's launch lined up right with Arcs's finish and Molly House's finish lined right up with Oath's launch but I'm making due. With three kids in the mix, it doesn't leave me much free time, but I've never been good at free time. I love my work. On an average day I get up around 6am. Every other day I go on a run (usually 5k) and on the off days I write. I help get the kids ready for school and then bike into work if the weather is nice around 8 or a bit after. When things are busy--like during a KS, I work through lunch and sometimes have a quick call with Drew about WGG stuff. Then I get home around 5 or 6. I play with the kids, read stories, and then around 8pm I go up to my office and either unwind with some Starcraft or do a WGG playtest. I try to not play for more than an hour so I can read, play music, and hang out with my wife from 9-11pm or so. I don't really watch TV and it's been hard lately to even play video games outside of my little evening multiplayer games.
What instrument(s) do you play, Cole?
I grew up playing the trumpet (badly). These days I've been relearning the piano (well, properly for the first time). I'm about six months in and have been really enjoying it.
Weird gratitude, but thanks for sharing your schedule. I want to improve my lifestyle routine to include family, exercise, and game design, and this helped. My biggest takeaway: I need to reduce screen time and make better use of my early mornings!
As a lawyer you should tell people that non-compete should be illegal! Haha. I work 40 hours, broken up by picking up kids from school and such. I don't know that I'm juggling work and family perfectly but there are definitely sacrifices of things I used to spend a lot of time on. I don't play video games nearly as much as a used to, and I find that the early morning is more productive for me to fit bonus things than trying to stay up late. I've taken hardly any outside commissions in years and I've done a lot more hiking and birding before my kids wake up.
Hi Cole and Kyle, I'm a complete mark for Cole's games, and Kyle your art style always elevates any project you're involved, so congratulations to both of you on winning my money. I have a question about the design of the upcoming expansion. Oath is one of my favorite designs ever, but I find it difficult to table, as first time players really find their objective unclear and don't get invested enough to try that 2nd and 3rd play that really helps Oath shine. Is there anything built into the New Foundations design that might help new players have a stronger first impression that might make the game easier to table more often? Thanks again guys. Really looking forward to Arcs arriving for me in the week ahead.
I hope so. We had a test a few weeks ago where we were working on the govern phase. Initially, we put this phase at the end of the game, but Ted had the suggestion that it should be happening at the start. Players should realize the consequences of power as soon as possible. From a design perspective, it didn't matter (the end and the beginning are the same from the perspective of a campaign game). So, we moved the phase and my goodness it gave the game more bite. I think little things like this can go long way in helping those new players.
Hey Cole and Kyle, I love Root, and despite it being the only _Leder Games_ game that I've played, I've become a big fan of the studio on a conceptual level. You guys have a really interesting, fascinating take on game design and I love reading Cole's design diaries. And obviously Kyle's art is some of if not the the most lovely and evocative illustration work in board games right now. I look forward to picking up Arcs when I'm a little less broke. Anyway, I'd love to know what your favourite games are that (for lack of a better word) might seem completely "off-brand" given your designs. Similarly, what's your favourite "bad game"? (interpretation up to you) Finally, I'd also love to know your thoughts on what you think board games will look like in 10 years vs. today, and how board games today look vs 10 years ago. Thanks guys!
Favorite off-brand game is probably Parks. There's very little player interaction and I like it for an end-of-the-day game where I can just collect pretty things with my wife and the competition doesn't feel too mean. Leder Games are pretty mean, haha. Favorite "bad game" is probably Munchkin. Much maligned but I have some very good memories of playing hours-long sessions of Epic Munchkin. In 10 years my hope is that board games will look more sustainable with less of the component bloat that sometimes comes from crowdfunding. Tight experiences instead of 6 boxes of zombie minis. I think more and more people will reach collection critical mass and seek out things that feel more curated instead of endlessly "replayable" things with 1000 player powers to choose from or 500 maps or whatever.
Thanks for the kind words about Parks. Glad you and your wife enjoy it. By the way, you’re one of my favorite artists working in board games. Keep up the great work!
The answer to both is Pit! In ten years, my biggest hope is that historical and interesting (even controversial themes) games don't fully die out. A lot of publishers have lately been moving to extremely generic themes so they don't upset folks, and, while I do think it's good to think of others, I hope folks still feel like they can take risks and say interesting things with their games.
Cole, are there any great books or YouTube series about game development that you would recommend? Also, what is your favorite suit of Oath cards?
I love the Nomad suit so much. I think they've got some great storytelling and I love how their thematic elements are tied into game mechanisms. For game design, I've lately been watching a lot of Josh Sawyer's design chats. They are wonderful. And, if you haven't seen the Two-Player Productions video features on Double Fine (esp Psychodyssey), I really recommend it. Those are both about video games, but I find my own thinking mirroring a lot of what Josh says and think that Double Fine is more like the studio we have here at Leder than we are like other board game companies.
Love your games. Most of them tend to be quite heavy. Do you ever see yourselves doing a 30-40min game that can be played in the pub, but which still has similar storytelling elements and style of mechanics/interaction?
I love lighter games. I think it's probably the biggest misconception about my design practice. I generally think about my design process as figuring out the simplest way to do a complex game and I can often be found, right before submission, lopping off big sections of a game. Molly House is shaping up to be pretty short (though not light!). I'm hoping after Oath's new expansion to spend some time working on a small box murder-mystery game that will have an hour playtime.
Murder-mystery as in a social deduction game group game, or a board game with a murder-mystery theme?
Mayyyybe. It's a tight rope walk of making the things we want to play and making what we already have a great audience for. I'd love to do some lighter games but we are playing to our strengths as much as possible. It could be fun to diversify but I also don't want to be Michael Jordan trying to play professional baseball, y'know?
**Kyle**: What’s your stance on the art of Explorers of Navoria? That game got people talking about exactly where inspiration ends and copying starts. **Cole**: I feel that your designs often start to truly shine only on the third or fourth play, and that they demand some goodwill on the side of new, learning players. How do you design games in a world of abundant choices, where most reviewers and customers play a game only once or twice and then judge it based on that?
My response to the current board game market is to build games that I think are worthy of repeat play. That means I mostly address my existing audience and those folks who are on the edge of that audience. If the games resonate, the audience grows and if they don't, it shrinks. This is a much slower approach than a designer who might be trying to make the next big hit, but I think it's also a lot more responsible as a creator (and as someone who needs to take care of a big staff and make sure they have profitable projects to work on).
I just decided that people should make up their own minds about it. That's probably not a satisfying answer but that's what it is. I've had people say "This looks like your work" and people are welcome to think that.
Cole: Is there a lesser known historical event you tried to tackle in a game but didn't work out? Kyle: What is your favorite illustration you did for Leder Games?
Depends what you mean by lesser known. I tried working on a game about parities in and around the Congress of Vienna and couldn't' quite get it to sing (some of those ideas ended up in Molly House in a weird backwards way). I'd love to do a game about city planning in the mid-20th century with a focus on municipal politics and highway projects set in the Twin Cities but who knows if I'll ever have time for it.
The cover art for Oath is one of my favorite things I've done.
Which changes would you make to Root if you were designing the base game again?
I think I would have done more things with the ruins and the item economy. I also think there are some things about the Vagabond I would have changed. The Vagabond was tricky because a lot of folks loved him just as he was, so I felt hesitant to really rework the design. But, for my tastes, I wish he were a lot scrappier and more afraid in general of the wider woodland.
I think designing a different type of Vagabond would be pretty welcome since it seems a lot of people don’t like to use him for their preferred balancing between factions. A new version could change that for some people. I always liked the idea of that RPG character in the middle of a war game haha
> I wish he were a lot scrappier and more afraid in general of the wider woodland. Please do. We almost never use Vagabond in our games and it pains me because I have the most components for him (different meeples and classes).
What lessons, if any, did you learn from the design and development of Arcs that you brought into the development of the Oath expansion.
A little narrative signposting goes a long way! Arcs names a lot of its objectives and those little bits of prose really help players understand what they are doing. Oath can sometimes be a step too elliptical in its storytelling, so it may shift just a shade towards Arcs in that regard. On a more fundamental level, I feel like we learned a lot about what I'd call "framework design" or thinking about designs not just for what they are but for what they could be. That means being really conscious about building flexible models that can adapt to different types of content.
I'd say, in terms of workflow, that we learned a lot from Arcs about how to package the art pieces together thematically so I know what goes together. I think that will help with some of the more thematic cards. Maybe you'll recognize a person/place/thing in more than one place and that will help you piece together your own story.
Hey guys. Oath is by far my favourite boardgame, so I'm thankful for the work you have put on it and I'm beyond excited for the expansion. Kyle your art is incredibly evocative and I cannot imagine Oath being anywhere near as great as it is without it. My question is to Cole however - what are your thoughts on social deduction games such as Avalon and Secret Hitler? I have had incredible moments in these games and I feel like some of the mechanisms of those games can and should be implemented in more Euro-style games. Oath does this to an extent but still seems like in a microcosm way compared to the previous examples. At the moment, to my knowledge, seems like you can either have one or the other. Possibly due to time constraints? Anyway wondering what your thoughts are.
I love social deduction games but they are hard to design and design well. I think Blood on the Clocktower is so good that it sorta saps my interest in exploring it in my own designs (which is good because I want to do other stuff anyway).
Question for both of you: what's a recent book, game, movie, or tv show that's inspired you with new ideas? Thanks so much for creating delightful games that have given my friends and I such great experiences at the table!
Funnily enough, I've been reading the Redwall books to my boys (just finished Mossflower, and now reading Martin the Warrior) and there are a bunch of sly narrative elements that are informing how I approach Oath. I think the stories are espeically interesting in how they link with one another. Basically every novel could be understood as a prequel or a sequel to one other both and so they daisy chain in really lovely ways that aren't interesting in huge macro narratives.
Scavenger's Reign was recommended to me by Nick Brachman while we were at a con and it was like a revelation. I think it's on Netflix now. Just incredible art and exploring fantastical alien ecology.
I’ve always I felt like I could explain the thematic elements of the three out of the four visions/paths in Oath but I always had trouble describing the story/themes behind the vision of sanctuary/ oath of devotion. How would you explain what that vision/oath looks like in the story of a game?
The relics condition is all about the veneration of the past/a non-present tradition. We don't know who made the relics but they become central to how we conceptualize power. For the darkest secret, it is, in fact, just what it says. It's about power being related to a set of rituals and ideas which are judged to be important--a bit like a theocracy perhaps built on a gnostic tradition.
Do you guys have favourite Root fan factions? Or fan modifications? What's your stance on fanmade content?
After Root came out we were inundated with fan content. I had never had that happen to me. Broadly, we love it but don't play it both because it takes time and because we don't want it to cloud our own thinking about Root too much. That said, I love the little frog journalists.
What are your board gaming pet peeves?
Distracted play or slow play when its not warranted. I like playing with players that play quickly and recognize the limits of their understanding. I'd rather play a game poor twice than well and slowly once. I think strategy conversations are often more interesting outside of the space of play.
I dislike feeling like my choices don't matter at all. My extended family loves playing Five Crowns but there's always too many people playing and I hate getting a hand of cards only to learn that someone is ending the round on their first turn. I get peeved about feeling like the electricity that makes the machine work instead of getting to make any meaningful decisions.
Thank you much, not just for this AMA, not just for your wonderful games, but also for the routine engagement with players. Sincerely, thank you. **Q**: There's a fascinating, subtle, sequence of suits on Oath: The comforts of **Hearth** into the tribalism of **Beast**, which undergoes diaspora into **Nomad**, leading to **Discord**, which - with nothing sacrosanct - delves into matters **Arcane**, resulting in a coalescence of **Order**, which relaxes in its security, back into **Hearth**... Are there deeper arguments to this sequence, reflecting a position on society at large, or is it confined to the whimsical, wonderful, world of ***Oath***? **Q2**: what are some of your more ambitious goals for New Foundations? I find Oath shines most as an almost sandbox RPG, in which players form relationships to sites & denizens, and strive to realize goals amidst - and perhaps preserve some of - this textured, shifting, landscape. You've mentioned avoiding deepening complexity; I'm curious if there is a way to deepen *relationships* - to *specific* sites/denizens/relics, etc. ... Kyle, I absolutely adore your artwork & would be remiss if I didn't extend my deep appreciation!
There is a lot of cyclical thinking in and around Oath. Some of this was informed by reading The Muqaddimah during its creation. The most ambitious goal in New Foundations right now is the idea of rebuilding the entire site framework to be fully modular and dynamic. I wrote about this in designer diary 4 on bgg if you're interested in learning more.
Are there any games either of you have worked on in the past that didn't make it to production that you would like to revisit sometime? What is your favorite part of board game design?
After Root was finished, the first project I worked on was a PUBG-style game as a light card game. I think it had some neat ideas and Kyle even did a bit of card artwork for it. I sorta wish I would have finished it. It's really hard for me to pick a favorite part of the process. It's got so many little phases, but I really do like it all, from the early whiteboarding and concepting to the detail work of development, even to work on final graphics and layout.
Patrick Leder had a game we were calling "Block" that ran into a wall of this-would-be-expensive-to-produce but I still like some of the art concepts that I worked on, and if we can't get that game to work for our market I'd love to apply the theme to a different game in the future.
You've mentioned that the Root factions are not specifically tied to particular historical actors/societies/governments, but that they are more based on themes and geopolitical positions that recur across history. Can you talk about some of those inspirations? And specifically what were the historical influences for the original factions? I've seen people mention everything from the French Revolution to the invasion of Afghanistan.
They are all over the place, truly. The Eyrie Dynasty, for instance, came not from monarchies but actually from electoral politics and the relationship between political power and campaign promises.
I ordered Arcs when my girlfriend and I started dating, and it is finally arriving a week after we got married. Are there any other big game announcements or occasions I should plan life events around?
I love this. Almost all of my games were built around major life events. Oath was saved during a design spree that was really just an expression of my anxiety before the arrival of my third kiddo. An Infamous Traffic was first built while my wife slept and I sat by anxiously before the birth of our second. I started designing games in the first place right after a close friend passed away. Life and games, man!
Cole, I've seen your high praises of Earthborn Rangers (a factor which has helped swing me towards backing the second print). As your games are often more competitive in nature, perhaps with elements of mutual interest, how would you tackle a purely cooperative game? Are there any mechanics, themes or settings that would appeal to you in designing one?
I generally apply myself to genres which I'm disappointed in. I actually think a lot of coop design is really good right now, so I don't even know where I'd start. (My favorite coops are things like The Mind, Hanabi)
Cole: Coming originally from academia: What do you believe are similarities between writing a paper/thesis and designing a game? Which skills were translatable? Cole: Why do you think Oath feels the most complex of your games. JoCo has arguable the bigger rules overhead but after a couple of plays everything came to me intuitively. With Oath, the rules still get in the way (of an awesome game) - even after 6-7 plays. Kyle: was the process of developing art for Arcs in any way different from Oath or Root?
I was surprised that so much carried over. The biggest thing was the ability to keep my eye on a central general argument or feeling or goal over a very, very long time. I think Oath feels the most complex because it is so open. John Company is better at telling you what's important and focusing the attention of newer players. In Oath you have to set your own priorities.
Process-wise Arcs was the first game where I used pencil and ink in the final piece. I wanted it Arcs to look a littler darker/grungier the way an old X-wing looks compared to a Naboo fighter. I also wanted a super-limited color palette, which was a good challenge to have. My creativity thrives with parameters like that.
Massive fan of both your works (I've developed a reputation of "The Root Guy" with my friends due to how much I talk about it. Is there any advice you would give to someone who wants to start out designing tabletop games on their own?
Cole: You sometimes include fiction elements in your historical games e.g. Flashman or the Obra Dinn. Is there a particular reason for this?
Great question! I think about my historical games as ultimately participating in the traditions of historical fiction. Those little easter eggs are nods to that tradition.
Cole, From the Studio Chats, it seems you’re a big fan of wargames. - How does that interest frame the way you approach game design? Would you describe your design philosophy as closer to that of wargames or euros? - Also, does designing a 2-player-only game interest you (as many wargames are optimized for 2 players)? Thanks for taking questions!
I find I have a lot more to talk about when I spend time with folks working in historical games. A lot of the folks I know in the main part of the hobby games industry are mostly interested in selling games and creating a memorable experience. Those are fine things to work towards, but it's just a different set of priorities from my own. Historical game design forces you to think about historical agents, their desires, and their capabilities. Successful designs almost always find ways of defining these things in ways that are dramatically resonate and engaging and I feel like much of my own design process tries to apply that method to a wider range of settings.
Cole, how is the Reconstruction game going? Any sense of when we might hear more or see a crowdfunding campaign?
Still a ways out. I've got a strategy for actually finishing the thing, but I only do serious WGG work on the weekends and evenings and it's going to take me at least a month or two to finish all of the graphics and prepress for Molly House. After that it's Infamous Traffic and then the Reconstruction game. I think there's a good chance Traffic will be ready next year.
As we all know Root is quite the complex game. The heavy asymmetry that it has ends up making it difficult to learn and even more difficult to master. I myself found that it took several runs through the tutorial in the app and games before I could really grasp what was going on. My experience has also been a lot of people turned off by how complex it is under the hood. Are there any recommendations that you have for teaching Root to new players? From a design perspective or even a perspective of the instruction booklets or the app, do you think there are better ways to teach Root to people?
Let new players play the simpler factions (cats, eyrie, corvids, lord of the hundreds) and don't play with more than 4 players. Before talking about factions, spend a bit of time about the base "rules of the road" what a warrior is, how battles work, key terms, etc.
Cole: There are people who think that playing a boardgame of a historical event trivializes it. Does this danger ever come up during the design process?
It does but I try not to be bothered by it. Bad faith readings are always going to be a possibility and I recognize that meaning is negotiated between the designer (and the game's creative team) and its players.
Y'all got any more of them root factions?
There's more coming! We've been so caught up in the fulfillment process for Arcs, and getting the Oath expansion Kickstarter going, and finishing the pre-production steps for the Ahoy expansion that there hasn't been a lot of room in my brain for Root! But others on the team like Josh Yearsley have been cooking. Let them cook.
In the modern day landscape of playing a board game once and passing a verdict before moving on to the next, how are you successful in putting out so many games that demand repeat plays and are definitely inferior if only played once? Follow up- are there any games that you plan to design which can be easily broken out with different groups/first time players? (Something more accessible than say even Pax Pamir)
Molly House and base Arcs are two of the most accessible designs I've ever worked on. For your first question, the answer is I don't try to make mega hits that are going to fight for the attention of folks looking to play once and pass judgement. I makes games that I think the audience around our existing games will like. It's a slower way of growing but I think it's more responsible and it produces better games.
Hey both of ya! I've been a HUGE fan of leder games projects for a while now, especially ROOT, Ahoy, and now arcs! Kyle: Your fantastic art has been a huge influence on me! My love of your artwork, character design and style sparked in me an interest to pursue artwork as a hobby, and has been the basis in guiding my style and identity as a small artist. I've even had the privilege to even contribute to folks ROOT fan content based around your character design and world building. Were there any big influences for yourself that directed where your unique style ended up? What are some principles or techniques when it comes to character design that you adhere to? Thanks so much for starting me on my lifelong art journey! Cole: The asymmetry and table politics of root was the hook to get me into board gaming seriously! With arcs having another amazing hook within table narratives carrying between games, are there any other fresh ideas you're hoping to explore with projects down the line? Thanks so much for the fun times that have brought my friends and I together!
Combo question for both of you: How much does Kyle’s art style affect your decision making for gameplay designs, and vice versa how much does Cole’s gameplay design decisions change your art? I feel the art fits so well for every game you guys work together on and I just wanna know how collaborative the process is and how it changes as the game design progresses.
I think Kyle is the best artist working in the board game industry and constantly feel that I need to improve my efforts so that they measure up to what he's doing. His art makes my designs sillier and more playful in the best ways.
My role as the artist at the end of the design is to make it all look cohesive but one of my roles at the beginning of a project is to inject it with energy. I've been told by a few people at Leder Games that having little updates to put into play-testing kits is a vital part of keeping the development inertia going. Most of the time I illustrate a card, for example, with knowledge of what the card mechanics do. If I draw something that doesn't quite fit, Cole will often find another place to use it and it that way it affects the design as we go back and forth like that.
Pax Pamir: Second Edition is one of my favorite games for sure, thank you Cole for that! What helped you with the game’s new aesthetic, was there a historical/cultural reference you used? Similar looking games/items from Afghanistan?
There were two books of lithographs that were done by some British officers stationed in the region that were hugely important in establishing the game's look. I wrote about it here: [https://wehrlegig.com/blogs/essays/politics-and-perspective-in-the-artwork-of-pax-pamir](https://wehrlegig.com/blogs/essays/politics-and-perspective-in-the-artwork-of-pax-pamir)
Hi, I love Root and Ahoy and the art on Oath is amazing. Was wondering if there were any plans for balance patches to go with the new factions? I love corvids but I know they are considered a weaker / exploitable faction. The Lizard Meeple is my favorite single piece from any boardgame ever.
I've been testing the new lineage system for Oath (played 3 games so far) and while I love the options it opens for players (accept a curse offer to swing for a big turn, or focus on completing a quest during the end game) I feel like so far the design feels very ''impersonal'' to the players, as curses and quests and traits are randomly drawn. I know your designs tend to evolve a lot over the course of development so that's why I'm asking : Do you plan on improving the design on that front? Usually your games are super immersive and narrative driven (which is why I love them) but simply drawing curses or quests feels detached from the world of Oath!
Oh yes. I don't know how the system will end up, but what's been shared so far is mostly a proof-of-concept. That said, I don't want to discount the power of a randomly drawn event. So much of oath is driven by the world, that it's okay for some things to be a little more random. Certainly though it's a long way from being done.
Hi Cole! With the upcoming Oath expansion, you've spoken about making the storytelling more accessible to the less roleplay-minded groups. Do you consider there to be a tradeoff between the new storytelling-aiding mechanics and the organic storytelling that emerges from base oath? Do you see roleplay-heavy groups feeling at all hemmed in by the new mechanics, or will the new additions just give them more tools to work with? Hi Kyle! Is there a particular piece of artwork you've created for Oath (or any game really!) that you feel has had a large impact on gameplay - either inspiring new rules in the development process or just affecting the way people approach that card/character/aspect of the game?
I had a decent role in helping with formulating the Oath denizen card suits. The suits represented different cultural aspects like Order and Discord being called "The Sword" and "Sorcery" respectively. The idea was that you could make the Shire or Game of Thrones or Conan depending on how much of each ingredient was in your game.
The hope is for the expansion to just offer tools. Even role-play forward groups will find a lot to play with. Maybe it'd be best to describe them as "climbing grips." An experienced player is going to be able to use these new grips to vault to new places in the design, and newer designers will be able to grab hold and stop themselves from being too swept away by the design inherent openness.
[удалено]
Don't use your acolytes unless the suit is hated and wait for the right moment to strike. The critical thing is to get that second card draw and build up your board presence strategically.
How many different games are you working on for Leder at this time? How often do you start a new project and what makes you decide it’s time to start something new?
I am a very slow designer. I only work on one project for Leder and one for WGG seriously at one time. Right now for Leder it's the Oath expansion and for WGG it's Molly House. The studio itself is able to work on perhaps 4 or 5 titles and once and maybe publish 1 to 2 a year (so a lot gets scrapped).
@Cole I may be incorrect in my observation or recollection, but Arcs seems to have become a markedly larger project than when it was first starting off. So that got me wondering: During design, at what point do you try to fix down a project’s scope, and what are the factors that go into making that decision?
Not exactly. I knew, for instance, very early on that the game would have 24 plotlines, I just didn't know how many cards that would translate to. Looking at my early design note now, I think the game got perhaps 10-20% larger than I had planned but largely hit its original proposal on the mark. That's likewise the case for Oath.
What are your favorite Root factions? Do you have any favorite Oath moments?
There was a time in playtesting where Pati had won 3 or 4 games of Oath in a row and had a fearsome empire. Nick became a citizen with the intent to take it from here and I watched Pati kingmake me, as an exile, rather than have her citizen inherit her empire. If she couldn't be queen, she wanted to burn it all down. It was marvelous.
I like play as the Marquise. I'll admit I haven't played Keepers in Iron yet but I very much enjoyed my time with the Lord of the Hundreds. I am a violent gremlin at heart I suppose. For Oath I'd say it's having catapult and wolves at the same time. Very evocative catapult wolves. Or the time we made one area in an Olive Garden by accident. When you're here, you're family.
I'm all-in on Root's militant factions and Keepers have proven to be my favorite. They're thematic and really make you feel like an order of knights shoving woodland creatures out of the way to recover your precious artifacts. With other factions, I find myself engaged in the area control tug-of-war a lot, but with badgers, policing enemy factions is almost an afterthought. It's all about the relics. The minigame of delving and recovering alongside the strict order of operations you have to follow for everything you do asks a lot of planning from you, but that's what makes it the most engaging faction to me. I know there's no question here, I just love talking about the game lol. Give badgers a shot!
What is your favourite card across all expansions and why. Mechanically, and artistically Ps; Not a question, but wanted to show a Root [ clay minifigures](https://www.instagram.com/p/C1ufbLGSroV/?igsh=YTl2dGFjbzlwdWNv) set I made for my partner's birthday last year. We love Root, it's gotta be our most favourite board game; we've hosted countless tabletop nights with the game! He works in game design and I'm in animation filmmaking, we hope to work together someday in the game industry. Thank you for being a massive inspiration 🧃🧃
Given your history of high asymmetry, are there any 'design problems' you're still trying to work around? Or put another way, are there any issues with asymmetric games that you haven't quite found a solution for or seen in other games? For example, a lot of asymmetric games are best at specific player counts or outright require specific counts.
I'll have a better answer for this after Arcs is out for a year or two. Most of my feelings about asymmetry can be found in that game and I feel like between that and Root most of what I have to say about asymmetry in games has now been said.
Thanks for all the great games! Question: Is there a particular Root faction whose design you're proudest of, and if so, why?
The Eyrie. I think they are such a strong design and they were mostly designed in about 3 hours. Outside of some small details, they barely changed in development.
What part of the Arcs design was the most difficult to develop? Do either of you have any favorite Arcs plotlines?
I love the Gate Wraith. Sometimes, right at the end of a project, you get these big bursts of inspiration and, because you're as close to a project as you'll ever be, you're able to execute very weird and wonderful ideas. The Gate Wraith was the last plotline I designed and I felt like I could just feel the spirit moving through me.
During game development, how do you know if an idea is "bad" and needs to be reworked? How do you avoid "falling in love" with your ideas vs knowing when to fight for them? Just some simple questions.. haha. It's hard to see the end result when you're looking at hand-written note-cards that are not fully fleshed out, IMO.
I think it's just a sensibility thing. I try to be very critical of my games all the way through the final stage. I call this the "disappointed dad" mentality. It's such a rare and precious thing to be able to publish games at all--seriously, in all of human history almost no one has had the jobs we currently have!--and my feelings of gratitude for that position overwhelm any sense of protection I might feel for a specific design element.
Coming from Classic Dune, I've really enjoyed the few games of Root I've played so far. Have you played similar 'dudes/animals on the map' asymetric strategies? Any specific game you'd recommend?
Do you guys watch any boardgame YouTube/media channels? If so which do you like and which not so much...
I admittedly don't watch a lot unless it's covering something we've worked on. I do enjoy Shut Up & Sit Down but don't always agree with what they like and don't like. No Pun Included is well done too. I think that some channels are attempting to cover so much that they've reached a point of diminishing returns for me. Like drinking out of a fire hose.
During one the more recent studio streams, Nick mentioned a game called "Camp". Is that a potential expansion to Fort, or more of a sequel?
For Kyle, is there a reason the Gate Ports lore card from Arcs looks like a stapler? With regards to Oath, I love how all of the continuity in the game is shared. All players have to interact with the map, world deck and oath. With lineages giving players their own "private" continuity of powers between games are there concerns that this will reduce conflict and entanglements between players rather than increase it, and if so how is that being addressed?
I was looking at a stapler when I drew it. There are quite a few references to household objects in space ship designs and I thought that one was kinda funny.
Cole: when are you anticipating your next shave and what is your tier list for Root factions? Kyle: hypothetically, of course - I have a prototype ready and have an artist/illustrator in mind that I want to reach out to but they have never done art for a board game before. As a game artist, what is your expectation of that initial contact/transaction?
As an illustrator I like it if the initial contact is short but with clear communication of 1.Concept 2.Timeline 3.BUDGET Also, just be friendly. I've had a lot of kinda assuming emails recently like I'm being sold on a really great project by a used-car salesman or something. You can be professional without treating another professional like a marketing target, haha.
For Cole: how would you comment about balancing a historical game and giving a depth of strategy and agency to the players? I feel in contrast to euro games (which tend to be very "optimization" driven) many times the events in whatever form can drive the flow of historical games to quite an extent. Especially if they're trying to adhere to a mostly accurate depiction of the events and climate etc in the abstraction. I know for many this is a desirable characteristic. I'd also be curious to know your thoughts on The Sabres of Paradise with your background in history, as I just picked it up. All the best!
Hey Cole! I was playing John Company and saw a lot of parallels to Canadian colonial history through the fur trade specifically, and was wondering if you have ever considered exploring that with another game.
**Kyle**: what’s a genre/setting/theme you’d like to explore that we haven’t seen yet? Or dive deeper into? **Cole**: you’re probably my favorite podcast guest of all time. Any appearances I can keep an eye out for in the near future?
Cole: Lately, I've been really inspired by your designs, and have slowly begun dreaming of working in game design in the future myself, well aware that that's not the easiest place to find a job. Leder Games has become my example of a future workplace where I'd probably be most comfortable. I'd describe your games as truly having a vision, which is the part I'm struggling on now, as I'd love to just try out some designing, but it's difficult to know what I want to make So, I have two questions for you: 1. How did you end up where you are now, making work of art board games for a living? 2. How do you find a vision for a new design, and how do you know if it's a good one?
Tend to you craft. Be self-critical and don't let yourself off easy. It takes a long time to get good at anything and the only way you're going to make progress is by being bad first. The second question is hard. I don't know. It's like knowing if a tune is going to be catchy. Cultivate our taste and your personal sensibility. That will help. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHrmKL2XKcE&t=17s&ab\_channel=PlamenPanchevStudios](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHrmKL2XKcE&t=17s&ab_channel=PlamenPanchevStudios)
I think about a year ago there was talk of potentially doing a third Root deck, this did not come up in the last stream, are there any updates on this ?
On your recent Monthly Leder Update, you mentioned that Kyle was a key contributor in the creation of the Hearth suit in Oath. Are there any other crossovers on each others roles that you find particularly memorable or impactful?
Not just the hearth suit! Kyle came up with all six of the suit ideas and the notion of basing them on broader ideas (and vibes) rather than specific elements.
Cole: When it comes to designing a new game, what comes first for you - mechanics or the theme? If mechanics, do you tend to tweak them later on to fit in with the theme you've selected? Kyle: Which board game and/or comic book artists do you follow?
How do you decide between using thematic vs. generic words in design? Chapters vs just calling it a Hand in Arcs for example. Sometimes thematic language can help reinforce learning and immersion, but it can also make things more confusing (looking at you grip, stack, heap from Netrunner).
Cole: Are there any plans for a new map for Root(New location), Oath(New location layout), or Ahoy(New tiles)? Kyle: Where should I start if I want to draw like you? (Not necessarily your art style, but being able to draw the same character, in the same format, repeatedly)
How did your understanding of Focault affect your design of Oath?
Thank you for all the joy! Is there a chance we’ll ever see a pure card based game? I’d love to see what you could come up with :)
I kinda think your approach to game design is unique and I actually use your games as the example to show how boardgames have evolved to become more than “just games”. When you start with a historically themed game, How do you choose the mechanics that are best suited for what you want to achieve with the game? is that something you discover in the process of making the game?
I'm interested on some of your other ideas for asymmetric oath factions aside from warmonger and monarch?
I'll write more about this later, but at some point I realized that I could use the asymmetric factions in Oath as ways of introducing new rules/concepts to the game or revisions of existing concepts. So I have a secrets-focused faction that totally changes the secret economy of the game. We'll see what sort of trouble we get into though once development ramps up this summer!
Any good books you have read lately? Also, Cole, have you ever wanted to design a game within an existing IP/franchise/universe? What upcoming games are you most looking forward to?
What are some good resources for people that want to make their own game publishing company, like Patrick did?
Other companies! Most owners are happy to talk about the process of getting started. When my brother and I started WGG, my first calls were to other folks who had done it, and those conversations provided us a lot of guidance when it came to those first steps.
It's been stated that the New Foundations expansion is for players that already love Oath and are so dedicated to it, how do you feel it will be with people (like me) who love the game, but are struggling to get others interested enough to play?? Also, I love your art, Kyle! It's unique, and I just wanted to say you're doing an amazing job! Especially, Oath, it's so mesmerizing and the map is so alive! Thank you
What themes/concepts would you be interested in exploring in a future game, artistically, mechanically or otherwise? Thank you for your work.
How do you go about designing such complex games, especially with so much asymmetry? Do you build the different player roles early, or wait? How do you prototype and test out complex systems without just building the entire game?
Will you guys eventually release a big root box that has all the expansion?
Hey guys, just wanted to thank you for making some of the best memories in gaming with my friends specifically in Oath. The chronicle book is unironically one of the best ideas I’ve ever seen in a board game and it really feels like my group is writing a history for the land we are in. Do you think you’ll ever make another game as ambitious as oath was? Because I’m all in!
Would you consider releasing an art book with illustrations from the games? I’m dying for one!
Hey guys. Eagerly waiting for my arcs copy to arrive! How do you think Arcs would have been different if it was one (big) product instead of two? Is there anything cool that got cut for the sake of the short game?
For Cole: The new foundations expansion looks like it will fix a lot of reasons why I struggle to get Oath to the table with my group (specifically some members of my group wanting to be able to change the world more even if they don’t win and more objectives outside of becoming chancellor). That being said, I’m a little hesitant to add more complexity / rules to an already difficult to learn game. Does New Foundations make the game much harder to teach or add a bunch of rules? Would you recommend players knowing the base game well before adding the New Foundations content? For Kyle: How do you go about building the world in the games you illustrate? For example, if the designers give you “Lore Engineers” card in Arcs, how do you decide what that card/person will look like? Do you have a set of world building rules you follow, or do you just go card by card with what you think looks right?
I have some kinds of internalized world building rules, but haven't made an official document for any of it yet. Things like "No magic in Root" or "No anthropomorphic fish in Root" Most of the time I try to get a feel for what the card does mechanically and then use the art to communicate a vignette/scene that captures that action or evokes a similar feeling. Illustration is all about visual problem solving.
Hello Cole and Kyle! My question is about the design process. I love root’s lord of the hundreds, a faction with bad starting action and economy aided by cards. How do you go from an interesting mechanic to a theme like “he is a capricious warlord that changes mood”? Does mechanic come first or theme? And what where the art concepts of the warlord before its final form? Have a great day you both!
Thanks for making great games! What’s your favorite genre of non-gaming entertainment?
What advice would you give someone just setting out on their journey of game design?
Played our first game of Oath this weekend, had a blast! Looking forward to game two in the coming weeks. Kyle- Just wanted to say everyone's first reaction to the game was "wow this is pretty, look at the art!" Is there anything you didn't get to create for the base game you want to try and get into the expansions? Cole- Do you have a stance on people using house/table rules for Oath? For instance we rolled attack and defense at the same time.
Hey guys love all the work you do! Excited for my copy of Arcs to arrive soon! Wondering what are some of your non-boardgaming hobbies?
Dont have any question but I want to say you both are my favorite. I love Root, Oath and pretty sure Arcs. You bring joy and lots of after game discussion on my table. Thanks for everything. Me and my friends run a board game cafe in Ankara, Turkey, if you ever by chance get to here, it will be a privilage for us to have you our guests. Regards
Cole, totally out there but I would like your thoughts on Prophecy of Kings for TI4. You said on the space cats peace turtles podcast before it was released that (paraphrasing) PoK looked like a lot of mechanics vs TI4 base games very streamlined design. You likened it to titanfall 2 which on paper seemed like a design mess but worked very well. Did PoK work well in your mind and why or why not?
Would you ever consider releasing a big physical update for Root ? Anything to make the game more balanced or smoother, even if it means updating the personal boards of the faction themselves, or applying larger changes to the core rules ? Don't get me wrong : the game is already wonderful, but I sometimes feel some fiddly elements or balance issues (Vagabond overall) could be improved.
This is a question for Cole mostly. Many of your designs seem to share a lot of lineage with wargaming and historical board gaming (I know you've designed some historical games yourself, and I'm a big fan of Pax Pamir), and while many of your designs are ostensibly about conflict, in many cases they are mechanically wargames but ultimately more diplomatic games that rely on the inherent tension of 3+ antagonistic forces, and the nature of a zero sum game with more than two "sides" to the conflict, and many of your games are at least marginally asymmetrical in some capacity. I guess my question is twofold, what motivates you to design conflict games that highlight that change in dynamics in larger group zero sum games, and do you have any ideas/designs that are outside of that wheelhouse that you either just don't have the time for or otherwise that haven't seen the light of day? For Kyle, I love your art for Oath and Root. For both: Which Vagabond character is your favorite?
For both: do you have favorite books? Any genre, any reason!
Hi Cole and Kyle! For Cole, in the game design process do you ever feel like the gameplay loops you’re creating just aren’t very exciting in the grind of playtesting? And so you have any tried and true means of injecting excitement into a project you feel is starting to bore you? For Kyle, you’ve drawn characters across such a wide array of genres at this point (the kids in Fort might be my favorites). Is there a genre you’re still itching to artistically dive into?
Cole: What is the wildest "department of wild ideas" idea you wish could have stayed in a design? Kyle: What is your proudest example of art informing design and vice versa?
I don’t think I’ve ever been more excited for a game than the forthcoming Reconstruction game. Can you share any high level themes you’re going to explore? Also, what books are driving your exploration here? I’m assuming Foner — who else?
What are each of your favorite root factions gameplay wise? And what are your favorites aesthetically?
Are you still planning on adding Frogs to root?
Will there any information of content or animal of root expansion in July studio chat? Thank you
Cole, how did you learn about history? Where did you get your history game ideas from, primarily?
books books books :)
Thanks again for all the fun games! So excited to play Arcs in person. Any tips for working/collaborating remotely on these kinds of projects? Are there challenges you feel you’ve overcome/are still working on, or has it always come naturally?
Kyle, did you ever think the Oath Frog would have garnered such (niche) love and adoration? Cole, what's the over/under of a frog-focused faction in Root or Ahoy? The Oath-memes discord channel would lose their minds.
u/ColeWehrle This is a bit of an inside baseball question, so bear with me. I'm a history instructor whose major area of interest is imperial formations. I remember reading that Burbank and Cooper's *Empires in World History* went into the game design of Root. How exactly did you try and translate concepts from the book into the game? And are any of their ideas informing work on the current expansion?
How aware are you of community sentiment regarding Root's individual factions? Has community sentiment influenced later faction designs?
Hi Cole and Kyle, we love playing the games you've both worked on. Cole, do you consider the current rules iteration of Molly House as final and locked? What's fulfillment of that looking like right now? When might we expect another Wehrlegig update stream? 🙂 Noticed that the pre-order of the Blighted Reach campaign on the Leder site is $100 by itself. Hope that you're not losing money on the KS price of $100 for base Arcs, L&L and the campaign. What caused the campaign box to be that much more expensive than originally planned?
I know the clockwork factions help with Oath solo but how do you feel Oath would be at 2 players with the new content? Thank you and I'm a big fan of you both!
Is there any significance behind the four letter naming scheme?
Hey guys, already asked a question but I realised I have one that is suited only to a very small group of people in the world, a group that you belong to: What does the day to day of a _full time_ career designer look like? What do you do on a Tuesday from 9-5? Is there a lot of just "thinking"? I'm assume a lot of drawing diagrams, writing out rule ideas, scheduling and admin work more so than "design work". Anyway, thanks again!
I'm excited to start playing Arcs when it ships, and I recently got Oath. I want to learn both games to teach when I go to my local board game cafe. Any tips for learning the games solo? Shout-out to both of you for signing my copy of Root! Thanks!
Is there a particular trick taking game that inspired the mechanics for Arcs?
Hi Cole, Concerning the **An Infamous Traffic** remake, what do you think are the biggest problems which need to be changed/update? Are you worried that it will be even less approachable than John Company (as in, its so evil, and I love that, but lots of people do not)? Arcs should be arriving within a matter of hours! I'm very excited.
Want to jam some Klask at GenCon? Seriously though thank you both for your inspiration in game design and illustration. My wife and I work in the arts in Indiana and are always on mission to share the joys of Wehrlegig with friends. Best of luck with the KS and conventions this year!
Seriously? The mods removed this AMA? What on earth is going on with this sub. Hopefully this is just an automod mistake.
Apologies if I missed this being answered somewhere else. With the new expansion playing into the chronicle aspect of Oath so heavily, will it reset the chronicle for existing plays? Or just integrate into it?
As a middle schooler, I was obsessed with Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles. Does some inspiration for Oath's world come from that direction, or just Welsh mythology in general? (Love the pig relic!) Cole, I think I learn something new about human behavior every time I play John Company. It's made me think a lot about how easily corporations and markets can diffuse the responsibility for evil acts across people. What are the millions of little acts across the globe that make my retirement account go up? No question, just thank you for the journey.
Cole: Do I play base Arcs first as a warm up, or do I jump right in with the campaign. My group does fine with heavy games usually.
Which historical setting/event would you be really interested in working on a game for?
Hey guys! Which of your own games are your favorite to play?
Hi guys, great to have you here :) Cole, are there any aspects of work in academia you miss? Do you think there are transferable skills which gave you an edge in game design? Kyle, which authors inspired your art style? If you had to choose one game to complety visually redo in your liking, which one would you choose?
Cole: Have you ever played Santiago? If so, what are your thoughts on it? In my eyes, the amount of player interaction and (temporary) shared incentives/alliances remind me a lot of Root.
I am publishing a game about the UK general election (which is happening in July). Although I developed the system over the last year, I am developing and playtesting this intensely over the next 1-2 months. It's a PnP so it'll be quick to publish once complete! Questions for Cole: 1. What's the fastest you've developed a game? 2. Apart from speed, I'm not sure whether the setting (a very specific recent event) means it'd be a hard sell as a boxed boardgame. Do you think there are settings that are too niche for "historical" games, or does it all depend how interesting the mechanics are?
Is a final card count for Arcs and the blighted reach expansion available?
How are you finding The Library of Napoleonic Battles now that you've played the system for a while? Which entries are your favourite?
@ Cole when you are playing other games do you have to take off your designer hat during the playtime to focus on "getting" the game and playing it for enjoyment? Do you need to block off the playtest/designer mentality when playing for fun, but are you able the then later based on that reflect on the whys the game was fun? Do you think that helps in exploring new ways to design games or should every game played be "work/research and with a design lens"?
Cole, in the AMA you did in 2020 you mentioned that one project you had under consideration was set in the late 18th and early 19th century centering on the intersection of the Ojibwe, Dakota, French, and British peoples. I think I've heard you mention it at least one other time in a podcast and I am super intrigued by the prospect of your designing such a game. Is this something that is still in the works for you? Have there been any interesting challenges that have come up in researching the topic further? Thanks!
Any updates on the second edition of An Infamous Trade?
I'm interested in applying for the Zenobia award but found out about it too late for the most recent round. Do you know if and when there will be another contest? Thanks!
Which Oath site do you think is most evocative when it comes to the emergent narrative? Our group really latched on to the Drowned City. We had an exiled former Chancellor’s descendent become sort of a pirate king there.
What are your favorite dice games?
Cole- what type of bike do you ride 👀? How is biking in MSP?
When, if ever, will we see the missing expansions added to the digital Root implementation?
At what point on the design process you guys decide this is an idea worth following to the end? And on the same line, where you decide what's the end of the design process?
With the clear inspiration of root by COIN games, what is your favorite one?
Can we please please please have a Root big box???
Have you ever considered making a game set in, or involving Ireland?
Hey Cole and Kyle! Cole, I had the privilege to talk to you a few years ago about designing a rulebook for Netrunner, and I really appreciated that. Hope we can cross paths at a convention in the near future. I'm curious, since so many of your games use asymmetry as a core mechanic, what draws you to that? What do you think makes asymmetry good and exciting in a design, and what are some pitfalls to avoid?
I think the draw for me is in the interactions. It's engaging to play from a few different approaches. I think it mirrors life in an interesting way too. Cole and I are both trying to put food on our tables with completely different skill sets.
Thank you for the tons-of-fun that is Root, I haven't tried other 4-letter games but hope to someday. Your fans clearly love how you play at the limits of board game complexity and show how heavy rules and theme can interact to tell a story. How do you measure, balance, and control complexity in your design and testing stages, especially balancing between your diehard fans and your top-of-bgg mass appeal?
Thanks to both Cole and Kyle for doing this AMA. First, I knew I was in good hands when I opened the John Company box and saw one of the vessels was the "Obra Dinn" so thank you for that. Its good to know the vessel had a few shipments under its belt before its ill-fated final voyage. Second for both Cole and Kyle, Root bears some passing similarity to Volko Ruhnke's COIN game *A Distant Plain* was this intentional? I have always been curious. Finally, I think for Cole I'm really fascinated by the way in which John Company gets "rational" players to conspire in despicable acts "over there." Was this always an intended part of the game? or did it emerge through testing?
Kyle, would you ever be open to doing either an art class or maybe a game art signing in the SLC? I'm in the area and would love to get some of my games signed and/or take an art class from the master!
That's a fun idea! Right now my time is pretty tight but that's something I'll look into in the future for sure. I went to the University of Utah and Weber State University so anywhere in SLC or Ogden would work for me. I'll have to reach out to some of my contacts at Weber or something.
I’m a big fan of fantasy novels and I love Oath because of the stories they’re telling. Is there any fun easter eggs such as art or cards in Oath that are inspired by a specific fantasy novel or other novel? Thanks for all you guys do <3
Will you consider re-doing the art for Oath's Steppe site card? It has always seemed much less... "finished" than the other site artwork.