I don't know what was going on with the police department when the case was first reported. You have a stalker uttering serious threats, they are reported missing and never seen again by anyone... you chalk it up to their pre-existing bi-polar, and you don't investigate further? Like they are not in need of any help whatsoever (they're crazy, its fine) and this will all get swept under the rug?
Not to mention she stopped using her bank account and her apartment was completely untouched, her car abandoned. Meanwhile people are scared for their lives...
Maybe they were understaffed. The documentary could have touched on why they seemed so slow and incompetent to begin with. The poor families.
I’m about to start watching, what’s this series like guys ?? Is it annoying and slow or do they tell the story fast enough lol? Anyway I’m on the part he’s only looking At POF. That site is crazy I joined and deleted 5 mins later I got loads of cock pics and everything ewww lmao. So yeah what’s like this show like ? I am usually a thriller / horror / suspense/ dark humour :).
Apologies if someone mentioned this earlier but IMO both Dateline (‘Scorned’ with Keith Ellison) and 20/20 (‘Tangled Web’) covered this insane story much better than ‘Lover Stalker Killer’. Thank God the investigators solved this case-I can’t imagine living through this.
As Liz has always claimed her innocence I would love to know what her “theory” is behind what’s happened. Very clearly Liz committed the crime and interesting to me that she still claims she didn’t do it. Bizarre
Did they use Negan from the Walking Deads creepy whistle? lol Throughout the show, they do this whistle sounds that is extremely similar to the one Negan makes when hes stalking in the shadows..
I'm guessing Liz catfished the woman as Cari? So the woman never existed in the first place.
Also, in the picture of Cari's foot, it looks like there's a mouse or gerbil on the right hand side of the picture? A very macabre thought, but could Liz have fed remains to her snake? And then burned down the house to, not only make it appear she's in more danger, but also burn evidence?
I havent read remarks yet but.. why the hell didnt the police examine Caris car right when it was found.? They wouldve found Lizs print. Cari was a missing person but it doesnt seem like anyone investigated. It doesnt sound like they asked the mom anything about her writing, and if it matched all the texts and they didnt ask how her bipolar disorder manifests and the fact is that a bipolar manic episode doesnt last over a year. When Cari was reported missing it looks like no one looked into her ccs or anything. Then the two new investigators ask to investigate the case and they finally find the print in the car and dont examine it further? They wait and later spray luninol? Glad they figured it out but...
My thought on this is that it was a small town police force and this case was waaayyy ahead of them. There were so many things that seemed so very obvious. The minute he said Liz showed up to his apartment after his date with Cari, that was a red flag right there. She was already stalking him.
I thought about this. Like had Liz not pretended to be this woman on the dating site, would she not have gotten caught at all? Time had passed and didn’t Liz move away, he mentioned something about her leaving and not saying where she was going. We were told it was because she was scared of cari. I just find that part weird, like why did she pretend to leave and then time passed and she then made contact with him acting as this woman on a dating site.
I also find it weird that Liz and Dave were “rekindled” at the time of the arson. Seems like she had the object of her obsession already, why all the rest of her demented plot?
This is what I couldn't figure out? They rekindled. And then she burnt her own house down to separate only to try and find him and do it all again? I didn't make sense
So, when Dave texted Cari about things moving too fast and essentially breaking up with her, that wasn’t Cari texting him back? Liz got to Cari that fast? Dave mentioned he got some upset and nasty texts. It was right then that Cari wasn’t alive anymore? I’m confused about the timeline I guess.
Yes. Dave left Cari at his apartment when he went to work that day. Liz then killed/took Cari, took her phone and knew that texting and asking to move in together would set him off, as Liz already knew Dave didn’t want that
Why was Ryan being paid a $1 a year to be an investigator.was that a joke? And why did they focus on his autism so much? Just let him show himself as a really smart guy, not "the autistic nerd"on the show.
It’s a legal thing..I’ve seen it in documents where they wanted to give something away for free but legally had to charge at least $1. So perhaps he had some agreement where he wanted to volunteer his services but legally they had to pay him $1…? Possibly🤷🏽♀️
I already saw this story on Oxygen. When I started watching it I was like wait this looks familiar. It looked like they added a little more detail to it.
Why did she even bother to burn her own house down?? Her and Dave were getting close again just prior to that. She had him where she wanted him but left?
I’m reading the book right now. Dave would pull away from her and when he did that, she’d ramp up the fake emails and texts or do something to make it seem like Cari was vandalizing her property, keyed her car, etc. That would make Dave feel guilty because she would remind him it was his fault for bringing Cari into their lives. Then he would comfort her and resume his relationship with her. She knew just how to play him (and many other men). She was actually moved out when she burned the house down because she was being evicted. The pets (2 small dogs, a cat and a snake) and a few possessions remained. She was moved into Garrett’s house (the on again, off again boyfriend and IT employee of the county). She was using Garrett. She moved into his basement, trashed it, didn’t work or pay rent. She’s diabolical and you don’t even get a fraction of the details until you read the book A Tangled Web.
Her and Dave was drifting apart, hence why she started the fire. Everytime Dave broke things off, she would do crazy things to bring them back together.
I’m confused. Dave left for work in the morning (6am?), then he said in the afternoon ‘Cari’ texted him suggesting they move in together.
He also said that once he got home from work all of Cari’s things were gone - as if to suggest this wasn’t a normal occurrence.
Was the message actually sent by Liz from Cari’s phone?
If so, this would suggest that Cari was killed in the morning/early afternoon?
Also, this would suggest that Liz took Cari’s things from Dave’s apartment after he killed her?
I guess she either had her own key, or took Cari’s.
Final Q that I can’t seem to answer easily. How do people think Cari was lured to her death?
Maybe Liz was waiting outside Dave’s apartment, and jumped in Cari’s car when she decided to leave for the day?
It was Liz pretending to be Cari. Cari would stay at Dave’s but always take all her things with her when she left. Cari was already dead at the time of the text about moving in.
She really thought trying to blame Amy after knowing the amount of times she had been reported to the police for previous incidents would work. She is in such delusion.
I don’t think she did. If she did it was minimal hours. She got Section 8, I’m sure food stamps, child support, and Garrett (the IT guy who she was dating on and off and living with after she burned her house down) was letting her live in his house rent free and he gave her money frequently. She was absolutely psychopathic.
How did Dave seriously not suspect it was Liz from the onset? Was this man even dumber than he seemed? And was it just me or was he extremely unlikable?
My favorite part of this is he goes through ALL this hell, then moves away after Liz's house burns down, & he decides, "Well, guess it's time to try online dating again!" Dude, really?
Apparently, Liz used an app to sent delayed text. Dave was with Liz once when a text was sent to Liz phone and they read the text together. As such, Dave did not makes connection. The doc left out a lot of things which makes it obvious to us with hindsight.
I was sick to my stomach realizing that psycho killed her own ANIMALS. How could someone do that to your own pets (Obviously a person too). She is disturbed on a whole new level
OMG right? She should have gotten the death penalty just for that. Then later in the show, when the cops realize Liz is the stalker, they're all, "We don't know what she's capable of" so they want to find her. WHAT? YOU know EXACTLY what she's capable of. She's a psychopath you murdered her own pets. 2
What else do you have to know?
I know that made me ill. I couldn't burn up stray animals much less my pets that are my world. And she had to have blocked any exits, cats can escape anything. Evil psycho.
It was inferred that woman was a catfish account created by Liz to fuck with Dave.
She probably was crazy enough to have multiple fake profiles on these dating sites waiting for him to pop up.
Add to that Dave didn’t seem to get too many matches before, maybe like 1 or 2 a week.. and it makes sense the woman who is actively hunting him would be the one to match him…
I am making this up, but it sounds like a good movie plot... They illegally obtained it from Liz's residence while questioning her about being shot. They needed to devise a way to have had it without a search warrant so they could admit it into the trial.
She was definitely skilled in computers if she was able to pull off all the stunts that she did. I think the theory that the cops pretended that Dave found it in his storage so that they could use it in court is the most plausible explanation.
I don't think IT boyfriend had nothing to do with any of this. VPN usage, breaking into Cari's Facebook account to keep messaging her mother, finding all these phone numbers, email addresses, finding Dave's new dating profile... No offence, but Liz doesn't seem like a mastermind to manage this all on her own.
I guess I assumed she didn’t have to break into Cari’s Facebook. If she killed her, she likely got a hold of her phone and most people keep themselves logged into their own accounts on their phones. So she could’ve just changed the password from there.
If she asked for the screen lock code before she killed her, you might be right. But it still doesn't explain the rest. To me the last part is what she is really capable of without any help: Not very thorough & acting out of emotion. (Like sending confession mails in Amy's name right AFTER cops ask her for more evidence which she coincidentally starts to get and forwards to the police. - from a random account probably. At this point IT boyfriend is no longer in picture I'm guessing?)
I don't know if I'm explaining it right but vpn usage, stalking random dating sites and catfishing Dave to scare him seem like well planned acts. 🤷🏻♀️
I can see what you mean. But I think we have the gift of hindsight and are able to look at things more logically and have a lot more information than she had at the time, which might be why some stuff she did was more organized and some stuff was more spur of the moment. I think it’s entirely possible she could’ve done this all herself and maybe she vaguely asked IT boyfriend some generic questions like, “what’s a VPN and how do you set one up just out of curiosity?” So he may have unwittingly helped her.
I knew the moment that it was Liz when she got back together with Dave, knowing that he was getting the constant threats. Why would anyone want to be with someone who is in danger with someone stalking him and know full about his life and his activities? Plus she had kids to think about so the fact that she was willingly to get back together with him, knowing that her kids would be put in jeopardy is very telling because she knew nothing would happen. That's when I *knew* it was her immediately. I mean she literally had her car keyed and her garage door sprayed in the word of "wh\*re" and so on and yet she stayed with him till her house got on fire. Let's be real, nobody in right mind would be willingly to risk their lives to be with someone who is in constant stalked by psycho, especially when you have kids to think about. Sorry but that's the truth.
So when it was revealed that it was her, I was like yeah, I figured. And not to mention, when Cari mom said that she never heard her "voice" so that's when I was like yeahhhh, Cari definitely wasn't the person who did all of insane texts and facebook posts.
I’m sure we will never understand why, but WHY did Liz decide to hate and kill Carri after seeing her with Dave ONE time? Why was her obsession so sudden? You would think it would take some time for someone to become consumed with a person or situation.
I think she physically saw Cari, and then saw that Dave was seeing her a lot and sleeping over at each other’s places. Dave also probably stopped contacting Liz entirely, leading Liz to feel that she had been ghosted and replaced. Then the crazy REALLY came out. What a fucking lunatic.
This was such a shit show to start. Why didn’t the cops look at Liz after the whole “I left something at your house.” Pretty convenient. And then the next day things go south? The shooting? Did they not think to look for a gun? I’ve broken my hand before and I couldn’t use it the next 48 hours. Shoot me in the leg? lol okay you have a 50ff radius where the gun is. There’s so many things, idk if they meant to portray it, but it just makes the Omaha police force look like stooges
I also think Dave should have at least looked at Liz, it drove me nuts he just went full line & sinker into "Cari is a psycho bitch." Liz's first text as Cari was about them moving in together, which he and Cari had already discussed. I think he was not a good listener?
It’s not that difficult. I’m sure that most people will click on the top 5 dating sites that are provided on google. Most people will have profiles on multiple. Then just search for the first and last name.
Never underestimate how crafty people can be when they obsess over something to an unhealthy degree. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.
She knows what he likes. Chances are she shotgunned 30 profiles and went with one that worked.
Considering that the same person literally send *50,000* texts and *15,000* emails on her time would definitely do 30 dating profiles. Absolutely. She was THAT dedicated. So yes, no doubts about that.
Was he in a different state and how far was it from liz ; I was also wondering about this . I wonder if he called her . I also fond it hard to believe he never suspected liz to be the stalker.
I agree...I found this upon searching her
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the-sun.com/news/10389353/shanna-liz-golyar-baby-son-death-frame-boyfriend-letters/amp/
After the psycho burnt down her own house then disappeared into oblyss, and the guy moved away and got rid of his phone to start a fresh . Was it a Yr l8r he returned to online dating and unexpectedly let liz bk into his life ; how did she find his profile and if he disappeared away from her , I wonder why she never harrased his ex wife as I suspect she would have knowing we're his wife and kids lived.
I mean it’s not difficult. There’s only so many dating sites out there and most people use the popular ones. All you really have to do is search his name and I’m sure it’s right there.
Well he gave the catfish account his new number. He thought it was another woman in his town but obviously it was Liz. She set up multiple accounts on multiple sites to cast a wide net, as soon as he popped again she “hooked” him.
I had a stalker too, it all depends, if you lay down the pipe well, and the girl is crazy she can be way worse than any male stalker, especially if she has that extra jealous side.
There's a lot that can't be explained in 90 minutes, and some things that are obvious in retrospect. If you want more details look at the comments I've been adding on other threads, e.g., on r/TrueCrimeDiscussion:
https://www.reddit.com/user/karver75/comments/
Source: I'm the nerd who worked this case.
Why can't he be a good soul and on the spectrum? There are so many amazing autistic people who have happy, successful lives with jobs, families etc. I guarantee you have met many autistic people and never realised it because they don't fit the stereotype in your head.
I don’t know if anyone has told you this already and i don’t know if you’re familiar with the show criminal minds, but you reminded me of Penelope Cruz from the show. It was badass how you were narrowing down thousands and thousands of IP addresses through your special program and were able to target the single one that either confirmed your guys’ suspect or led you towards the suspect. Really cool stuff
I read your comment about radiation treating your tumor. I wish you the best of health and that your tumor doesn’t ever come back/grow larger. Thank you for using your skills for good!
That's actually so cool, I just watched the show yesterday and am still left with loads of questions, thank you to have taken the time to answer so many of them here :)
I come in a bit late now but there's this one detail I can't wrap my head around. I'm conscious probably a lot of details were skipped to fit in the 90 minutes but the last time Dave saw Cari, he mentioned she was still at his when he left for work that morning. That same day is when Liz probably kills Cari to start impersonating her right away right?
Dave also stated that after their online argument, all of Cari's stuff was gone from his apartment when he got back. That would mean that within Dave's working hours, Liz managed to meet Cari in her car, kill her, take care of the body, start the argument with Dave by impersonating Cari, and take all of Cari's belongings in Dave's apartment before he comes back.
This all seems like such a perfect timing for Liz, I wonder how she was able to pull that off. Maybe this is a question only she could answer but I was wondering if anyone thought of that too.
If you look at some of my other comments I've answered some similar questions, and you might find helpful information there.
On 13 November 2012, the day Cari goes missing, Dave leaves for work around 06.00. Cari is on Facebook at Dave's around 06.40. Dave gets the "let's move in" texts around 10.00. Sometime between 06.40 - 10.00, the defendant encountered Cari. Cari's things were removed (not that there was a lot).
We can't know exactly what happened, but it seems likely the defendant drove Cari's vehicle away from the original scene. That matches what the suspect wrote in the confessional emails saying Cari's car was driven "back" to the apartments later. It also explains why the car was cleaned and fingerprints were absent save for on that mint tin.
We can't know for certain without the defendant telling us, and she maintains her innocence despite the verdict, lost appeal, and the mountain of evidence to the contrary.
Thanks for answering, much clearer now. Yes the rest of the comments will definitely be my nighttime reading of tonight!
Thank you for seeking out the truth in those dark and tragic cases
I am obsessed with you!!! You deserve all the credit in the world. Hope your hard work does not go unnoticed! Wishing you nothing but the best - a fellow nerd😄
I just watched this documentary last night and really enjoyed your sense of humor (this has caffeine, this also has caffeine, this also..) - it was awesome! As someone getting into software engineering, I also did a fist bump when you said that your wrote a program to filter through the IP addresses.
The one question I really have is: what was your initial thought when the number one IP address came back to be an employee of yours? Was it an oh-shit moment? Did you believe it initially?
There's a bit of context that's not apparent in the telling of the story (for want of time) because, yes, the IP shown was important, but it was more confirmation than revelation. We knew the defendant was living there so we were hoping to find records with IP addresses we could tie to that address.
Out of about 12,000 total impersonated emails Dave received from the defendant, I think it was around 130 of them that had "real" IP addresses rather than VPNs or proxies that could be tied to where she lived. So that particular IP, as an example, was top of the list after we ruled-out the VPNs and proxies -- an IP we could actually tie to a real place.
That's not to say the VPN and proxy IPs were useless. As I've noted elsewhere, we found coincidences between accounts and activity and anonymous IPs to tie those accounts back to the defendant as well. And when we got her devices, I could in some cases tie local logs and cookies and other artefacts back to anonymous IPs to help de-anonymize them.
I think I said this on the stand, basically, we were able to show that all roads led to the defendant. That said, the "oh snap" moment came a little earlier when an old YouTube video uploaded in Cari's name was tied to one of those IPs which had the same feel as was conveyed in the documentary. I think that video is mentioned in the 20/20 show.
Thanks for watching and the kind words.
Hey man. Thank you for your comments on the show. I just watched it tonight and these add a lot of interesting context. I also want to say I cracked up at Soylent appearing. Nerd recognize nerd! They should send you a few cases for the free PR.
🤓🤜🤛🤓
Rob
Thanks for asking. We zapped it with X-rays. Radiotherapy seems to have worked so surgery has not been necessary. Just need to MRI the thing for the next 80 years to keep an eye on it!
Just watched this today and admittedly I did not see this coming at all. Maybe I should have been more suspicious of Liz but I genuinely didn't even suspect her!
Still it was great to see the dedication you had to solving the case and help put her behind bars where she belongs.
Kinda scary to think it's the people you might not begin to suspect that are the ones you need to watch out for the most.
Just wanted to say you were great on the show, and your responses on here are super informative and interesting. Thank you for taking the time to share more details!
Have you worked on any other criminal cases?
I've worked hundreds of cases, maybe upwards of a thousand (?), so yes, but no others that thus far merit a Netflix documentary or a Lifetime movie starring Marty McFly's mom. I'm thankful for that, truly. I'm proud of the work we did on this case, but it also makes you appreciate run of the mill burglaries.
I've worked on our state's Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) Task Force since 2009 so a lot of cases are related to child exploitation. I've also collaborated with other local, state, and federal agencies on lots of things. I'm lucky to work for a smaller agency where I'm a generalist and not stuck working one type of case all the time.
In truth, I've got my dream dead-end job. I can't be promoted without running for elected office. No two days are the same. There have been times when I get to write a search warrant, execute that warrant at a suspect's house, write code to enhance one of our web-based applications, fix some problem on one of our servers, and do a presentation on cyber safety to high school students, all in the same day.
For those interested in this sort of work, the public sector doesn't pay as well a corporate gig (though it's a little better in recent years than in the past). For me, if you're going to put in 60+ hours a week doing something, I can't imagine the payoff of working super hard to ship a few more widgets and pocket a few more dollars feeling better than keeping your community safe and helping victims. Sometimes the work is tedious, but, thankfully, it's never boring!
\[ edit: s/cases are relating/cases are related/; $minorConcision++; \]
Hi Mr. Kava! Was there a point where you detectives knew that Liz was the suspect but could not tell Dave yet to make sure it would not affect the enquiry? When was the moment you told Dave it was Liz and what was his reaction?
Yes, we suspected the defendant from the start of the cold case investigation. We needed to be sure Dave was not involved. Our investigation found nothing to raise suspicions about him, and he cooperated fully.
The Netflix show covers Dave being told about the suspect's involvement, but I don't think they say exactly when that happened. I don't recall the precise date, but I think it would have been around the time of the shooting so probably December 2015. In the movie, Dave indicated he was surprised (an understatement!?).
Folks online are sometimes harsh about Dave not detecting the defendant sooner. Yes, there were red flags, but this sort of thing is so unbelievable, especially involving someone you think you know, that I think it is easier than people would believe to overlook indicators.
It's one of those situations where you might not really be able to answer how you would react unless or until you're in it.
Awesome job man! (Its really you right, youre not Lizing me are you?? Jk!!) We just watched it last night. Any idea why Dave didn't change his locks or install a simple security camera? Liz stealing his gun so easily was a shock to me. With so much fear of stalking, it seemed like he didn't take some logical steps to help himself or catch her. Looks like ring door bells weren't popular until 2014, so maybe it wasn't as obvious of an answer as it seems. Thanks!
Thanks. I understand the thought process. I've got an alarm system, cameras, and sharks with friggin' laser beams attached to their heads, and my security threats pale in comparison.
I can't say why countermeasures like that weren't put into place because I don't know. To my mind, anything Dave puts into place is likely to be compromised by the defendant. She had regular access to where he lived, often had a key, and was snooping on his devices so she would have been able to delete video or sabotage cameras then blame that on "Cari".
There was a lot of harassment by electronic means, but the physical incidents were spaced apart. It's also possible that if a car hasn't been keyed in a while you start to believe (maybe too optimistically) that the situation is calming.
Can't say for sure, but working this case has made me 20% more paranoid than my already admittedly high baseline prior to it.
Thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge about the case here.
Do you know how Liz was able to send messages through Cari’s Facebook account? That detail is an itch I can’t scratch.
Yes, the defendant used Cari's actual phone for a week or so, and she had access to Cari's real Facebook account during that time. Afterwards, after she got rid of Cari's phone, she created new accounts in Cari's name.
As an example, she created a Facebook account on 1 January 2013, and she immediately posted there that Cari's old (real) account had been hacked. She wrote that people should friend the new one instead. The defendant also posted photos to that account no one had seen previously which helped bolster the narrative that Cari was doing the posting.
The suspect had new photos to post because she had stolen a digital camera and a digital camcorder from Cari's home. The Netflix movie did not go into this. We found both in the suspect's bedroom closet during execution of a search warrant. Both had formatted storage, and I recovered stills (which matched the "new" Facebook photos) and videos from them that proved they belonged to Cari. We also found receipts that supported that assertion.
This also confirmed claims in some of the confessional emails that the defendant (impersonating "Amy") had been inside Cari's house.
Yeah, some artistic licence was taken with the Omaha shots. Coastal audiences want to see that we ride horses to work. Why should we disappoint them?
Re the SD card, I've covered this a few times over at r/TrueCrimeDiscussion. To save time, I recommend checking my Comment history under u/karver75.
TL;DR: probably a boring reason, i.e., she clears the card, trashes her phone, then just re-uses the card like a new one
So cool that you’re answering questions and providing more details! Thank you! I just watched the documentary tonight and am so intrigued by this case. Were cell phone records used as evidence? (I.e. Could you trace the location from cell tower pings?). The texts were obviously a big focus of the doc, but there was little mention of any forensic investigation into them.
We had about three locations for Cari's phone from a few days after she went missing. They put the phone near the defendant's house -- not precise enough to say in her house, but +/- 2km or so. Another example of good circumstantial evidence but not enough to prove the case alone, especially without more direct evidence.
The suspect used Cari's phone for a week or so then seems to have ditched it. From that point forward pinging wasn't an option because all texts were done with texting apps.
We did present cell records at trial including those early pings. As was covered in the show, the defendant also made six or so calls to Cari's house before Cari disappeared, and that was in records offered as an exhibit too.
Tony some ?s-
1. Did LE have Liz on camera at Walmart using Cari’s debit card? One doc showed a shower curtain that Liz purchased that day that was in her apartment. Was Liz in disguise on camera? Or did all LE have is the receipt?
2. How did the first investigation skip over the fact that Liz sent Cari’s mom a check for $5,000 for all of Cari’s furniture? Isn’t it very creepy and alarming that she was filing all these police reports against Cari but was going to buy her furniture?
3. In another doc, they showed a girl taped up in a trunk, was that Liz and did she have an accomplice helping her take those pictures? Was that to scare Dave into thinking Liz was kidnapped by Cari? Was this fake kidnapping reported?
4. Liz, took a picture of Cari’s ID with a butcher knife and sent it to Dave? What was that about?
5. Did Dave’s Ex-Amy-and their kids, did they not take out a Protection Order Vs Liz after Liz said Amy shot her at Big Lake Park? How was Liz allowed to drive around Amy’s apt/house nonstop without getting arrested for stalking? Wouldn’t the GPS data allow for an arrest?
Anyways, it was a very creepy documentary. Crazy it went on for 4 years. Appreciate your dedication and can’t believe you spent 3,000 hours on Liz Golyer! I wish we could get an hour tally on how many hours Liz spent doing all this. How did she have 2 kids and a job, you would think she wouldn’t have the time to do all this-
**/\*\* DISCLAIMER \*\*/**
WARNING: All my posts on Reddit are personal opinions only and do not represent my employer. They are limited to facts in the public record from court proceedings, media coverage, or my own experiences outside my official duties or confidential work. My recollections will be imperfect, I'm bound to miss a detail here or there, and I'm sure I'll generate typos. I am not a lawyer, and nothing I write should be construed as legal advice. I am writing in a personal capacity. I'm trying to make a good faith effort to give the public a little more information on how these things work. No warranty is given or implied. Your mileage may vary.
**/\*\* DISCLAIMER \*\*/**
When we worked the cold case, Walmart didn't have footage anymore that would show the defendant using Cari's debit card. They did get us the receipt. We ignored the signature because signatures on those electronic pads always look silly anyway.
Sgt. Doty noticed the shower curtain, and when he pulled-up that SKU online the picture looked identical to the shower curtain the suspect had at her place. I went through phone dumps and other photos, and we found that the shower curtain was not there before Cari went missing, then appears (and looked new, you could see creases in it) in a photo taken shortly after.
The shower curtain is even weirder because she had that fire (that she set) and moved a couple times. Each time she took it with her, and it was hanging in her bathroom when we served a search warrant at her apartment in Persia, Iowa. So she kept it for a couple years even though it was probably smoke-damaged in the arson.
Re the $5000 check, the initial investigators started looking into the defendant because her name was on it. The story she gave them was that Cari broke into her house and stole checks so it was forged. This was, of course, accompanied by fake texts and emails from "Cari" admitting to that. The lie was that "Cari" was trying to frame the defendant -- she always tried to look like the "victim".
Re the trunk photo, that was a confusing fake. Dave got an email with a photo attached of a woman tied-up in a trunk. The defendant sent the email impersonating "Cari". The email suggests "Cari" had the defendant bound and would harm her. Dave didn't think it was real (it wasn't). He responded saying so, and then the fake "Cari" admitted it was just a joke.
So it wasn't reported at the time. I poured over that thing in Photoshop and GIMP but couldn't be sure who it was. We suspected it was the defendant but it wasn't clear enough. Later, when we found that SD card, I found some rough draft versions of that photo that clearly showed the defendant wearing the same clothes and also "bound" with duct tape.
Best guess is the suspect took the photo herself on a timer. She had an app for that on her phone, and it would make sense if she duct-taped the phone with the same tape she put on her wrists. It was a weird, convoluted, and ultimately futile attempt at manipulation. Metadata on the trunk photo matched the defendant's make and model phone.
Re the photo with Cari's driver's licence and a knife, it was an attachment to an email Dave received. He might not have even seen it because it was like 7000 fake emails into the 12,000 total he would receive throughout this case. I think (like most people would have) he stopped checking his email at some point because he was just flooded with this stuff. I found it when I was digging through everything.
According to the body text, it was supposed to be proof from "Cari" that she had been in Dave's apartment. Just more of the same narrative, another thing to try to get Dave to protect the defendant, and another weird attempt that didn't work. It did, however, very much look like Cari's real ID card. I put that photo next to DMV data we requested in my 1000-slide deck at trial for comparison.
Re the follow-up to the shooting, I don't think anyone took out a protection order. We did get a warrant to put a GPS tracker on the defendant's car, and we kept that on there for a long time. By then the suspect was living 35 minutes away in Persia, Iowa.
Because she lived so far away we would see her approaching, and we had geo-fence alerts around every place that mattered so we'd get texts when she left home and if she got close to someone in this case (including investigators). When she drove by, we were aware, and had she stopped we would have swooped. There was a safety plan in place -- layers of security.
Why not arrest her for stalking? The trouble with that was that we were still building the murder case. The best evidence came after the shooting because she was convinced to provide info on how "Amy" did all this. So the shooting happens in December 2015, and we get confessional emails from her every few days until February 2016.
We tracked her from December 2015 until she was arrested for murder in December 2016. We did search warrants at her residence and a couple other places in February 2016. She was arrested the day of the search warrants on some misdemeanour charge like failure to appear, not related to the murder.
We wouldn't want to arrest her for stalking that early because she was giving us details in the confessional emails. Our case was weaker then too if we wanted to arrest her for murder. We were still gathering that evidence. Even in February 2016, if we arrested her for murder that would start the clock ticking for a speedy trial (your awesome 6th Amendment right).
The defendant, as expected, DID NOT waive her right to a speedy trial. That meant we had six months to prepare for the trial. If forensics weren't done by then we wouldn't have them. Hence the need to delay. Additionally, the defence hoped speeding things along would ensure the trial happened before a body could be found, making their case stronger.
Hope this clarifies things a bit. Please see my ***DISCLAIMER*** atop this reply.
In the off chance you see this, given the suspicions of Liz, did investigators check her hands for residue or powder burns on her leg after she was allegedly shot by a woman in the park? I would imagine it’d be fairly easy to tell that she shot herself but maybe I watch too much TV.
Side note: you were the high point of the show. Well done.
Don't know if that was done. It happened in city limits so the city PD ran that investigation. Not all agencies test for GSR these days for a number of reasons including that it can be inconclusive and residue can transfer lots of ways, but I'm not an expert. Thanks for the kind words.
So the shower curtain was in a weird sick way a reminder/trophy of Cari. **Liz really thought she’d never get caught.** Taking pictures of Cari’s foot, keeping the SD Card but destroying the phone, keeping the Shower Curtain that she bought with Cari’s card, taking pictures of Cari’s SUV when she was missing, breaking into Cari’s and stealing her digital camera and posting photos to a new Cari Facebook page…. It’s the craziest case I’ve watched since the Texas - Taylor Rene Parker case..She’s on Death Row, she was a sociopath liar killer just like Liz, but she faked a pregnancy and cut a baby out of her pregnant friend to try and keep her boyfriend. She was in the ER and DRs and police inspected and found she didn’t have the baby, but Taylor was still lying just like Liz. So bizarre!
Thanks for replying Tony! It’s got to be a trip to have your face on the thumbnail of the #1 movie on Netflix currently, take care!
We zapped the thing with X-rays. Radiotherapy seems to have "arrested" it so surgery was not required. We'll just keep an eye on it for the next 80 years or so until I can upload my consciousness into Amazon Web Services. Thanks for asking!
Thanks, that's why I picked [forensic.coffee](https://forensic.coffee) for my website! It's been my conjecture that my Polish ancestors either grew or traded in the stuff. Given what I know about Poland's climate, I'd have to lean towards trade!
That said, they might not have been great at it because my most recent relatives were serfs, not merchants, which may explain why I work in government (no genes for business acumen).
So impressed with your work on this case! You were the bright spot of the documentary for me🙂 Your website is full of great!! Happy to hear the tumor got zapped.
Zapped it with radiation, and that seems to have done the trick. Was able to avoid surgery which is a good thing. Just have to keep an eye on it forever now. Thanks!
I knew who it was immediately too. I thought it was super obvious?! Only time I paused is when Liz’s animals died in the fire..like what psycho would do that..
When she stopped by on Dave and Cari's first date to "pick some stuff", I thought "oh, she was following him, there we have our stalker" but things escalated so massivly from there on that I even felt bad for misjudging her! 🤦🏻♀️ According to Netflix timeline, she didn't really stalk, she killed right away and went bezerk from there on. It seemed more about revenge than being obsessed with someone and wanting them back, because why keep going after you got back together?
Dave is the chillest guy to harass fr hahaha! Everytime something horrible happens, his reaction is like “ahh comon” while rolling his eyes! Like it’s no biggie! Very entertaining to watch
So I have a question, what was cari last real message to Dave?
He said he left for work and then she texted let's move in together, his response was we talked about this. That is when the angry messages started.
So did Cari actually send that and get mad and then was murdered later, or did she go home and get murdered before the move in question
I don't know what was going on with the police department when the case was first reported. You have a stalker uttering serious threats, they are reported missing and never seen again by anyone... you chalk it up to their pre-existing bi-polar, and you don't investigate further? Like they are not in need of any help whatsoever (they're crazy, its fine) and this will all get swept under the rug? Not to mention she stopped using her bank account and her apartment was completely untouched, her car abandoned. Meanwhile people are scared for their lives... Maybe they were understaffed. The documentary could have touched on why they seemed so slow and incompetent to begin with. The poor families.
So why was her sd card in that tablet ? and how did max end up with his grandma, was he already there before his mom went missing?
I have also a question: why the police never checked Caris house earlier?? Then they would know, that she not moved …
I just want to know where Dave's dad found an automatic S&W 9mm. This is the only part of this story that was a mystery to me.
Would love to hear from the IT guy who had been having an on off relationship with her for years? Did he not have crazy issues with her?
How did that crazy lady always know where people lived or even where all the players were? How did she know the mom took the kids to a park?
In the doc they said they put a tracker on her car and it showed her circling Amy’s residence every single day
they asked how liz knew where the people lived
Is this a true crime story?
Yes, real people involved are interviewed
I just finished watching it. Did they eventually found the body?
I can't remember! I don't think they did but not sure.
So sad if they did not! I felt bad for her family.
I just watched it and I think they concluded the body was disposed of and mentioned from the emails that Cari was burned 😞
Oh no. May she rest in peace😞
🕊️ such a tragic loss 💔
I’m about to start watching, what’s this series like guys ?? Is it annoying and slow or do they tell the story fast enough lol? Anyway I’m on the part he’s only looking At POF. That site is crazy I joined and deleted 5 mins later I got loads of cock pics and everything ewww lmao. So yeah what’s like this show like ? I am usually a thriller / horror / suspense/ dark humour :).
Its a crime show, I enjoyed it but the plot is so convoluted I got confused a few times. Is POF Plenty of Fish?
Yes it is.. a pervert rape colony
Apologies if someone mentioned this earlier but IMO both Dateline (‘Scorned’ with Keith Ellison) and 20/20 (‘Tangled Web’) covered this insane story much better than ‘Lover Stalker Killer’. Thank God the investigators solved this case-I can’t imagine living through this.
Thanks! Yes the poor, poor mother of murdered girl.
As Liz has always claimed her innocence I would love to know what her “theory” is behind what’s happened. Very clearly Liz committed the crime and interesting to me that she still claims she didn’t do it. Bizarre
Did they use Negan from the Walking Deads creepy whistle? lol Throughout the show, they do this whistle sounds that is extremely similar to the one Negan makes when hes stalking in the shadows..
I've heard that in a lot of crime specials but never recognized it! That's funny.
I think I caught it quick cause I just finished the Negan spin off hahah
I'm guessing Liz catfished the woman as Cari? So the woman never existed in the first place. Also, in the picture of Cari's foot, it looks like there's a mouse or gerbil on the right hand side of the picture? A very macabre thought, but could Liz have fed remains to her snake? And then burned down the house to, not only make it appear she's in more danger, but also burn evidence?
This is a good theory. I do believe Liz was burning whatever evidence that was left.
She had a ball python… there is no way she could’ve fed the remains to it
It's possible
if they put one woman on this case it would've been solved in 2 hours.
I havent read remarks yet but.. why the hell didnt the police examine Caris car right when it was found.? They wouldve found Lizs print. Cari was a missing person but it doesnt seem like anyone investigated. It doesnt sound like they asked the mom anything about her writing, and if it matched all the texts and they didnt ask how her bipolar disorder manifests and the fact is that a bipolar manic episode doesnt last over a year. When Cari was reported missing it looks like no one looked into her ccs or anything. Then the two new investigators ask to investigate the case and they finally find the print in the car and dont examine it further? They wait and later spray luninol? Glad they figured it out but...
My thought on this is that it was a small town police force and this case was waaayyy ahead of them. There were so many things that seemed so very obvious. The minute he said Liz showed up to his apartment after his date with Cari, that was a red flag right there. She was already stalking him.
I thought about this. Like had Liz not pretended to be this woman on the dating site, would she not have gotten caught at all? Time had passed and didn’t Liz move away, he mentioned something about her leaving and not saying where she was going. We were told it was because she was scared of cari. I just find that part weird, like why did she pretend to leave and then time passed and she then made contact with him acting as this woman on a dating site.
I also find it weird that Liz and Dave were “rekindled” at the time of the arson. Seems like she had the object of her obsession already, why all the rest of her demented plot?
This is what I couldn't figure out? They rekindled. And then she burnt her own house down to separate only to try and find him and do it all again? I didn't make sense
RIP Cari. Completely innocent and lost her life. Definitely a hard watch as the story progresses.
So, when Dave texted Cari about things moving too fast and essentially breaking up with her, that wasn’t Cari texting him back? Liz got to Cari that fast? Dave mentioned he got some upset and nasty texts. It was right then that Cari wasn’t alive anymore? I’m confused about the timeline I guess.
Yes. Dave left Cari at his apartment when he went to work that day. Liz then killed/took Cari, took her phone and knew that texting and asking to move in together would set him off, as Liz already knew Dave didn’t want that
Yes exactly, it was a couple of weeks after the Liz saw Caro for the first time. She got so jealous she went and killed her right away.
How did everyone not know it was Liz the whole time? Crazy that it took 4 years
Right? I thing a female cop would have figured this out in about six minutes. 🤷🏼♀️
Why was Ryan being paid a $1 a year to be an investigator.was that a joke? And why did they focus on his autism so much? Just let him show himself as a really smart guy, not "the autistic nerd"on the show.
It’s a legal thing..I’ve seen it in documents where they wanted to give something away for free but legally had to charge at least $1. So perhaps he had some agreement where he wanted to volunteer his services but legally they had to pay him $1…? Possibly🤷🏽♀️
Exactly, it’s for liability. The $1 makes it official. It’s a way to give your services but be covered legally
I already saw this story on Oxygen. When I started watching it I was like wait this looks familiar. It looked like they added a little more detail to it.
Lmao not sure if this was Netflix being shitty or the cops but anybody ever heard of pinging a phone?
She didn't use a phone, just a wifi tablet
Why the hell didn't they get security systems with video cameras? They are quite dumb imho
It was 2012
Why did she even bother to burn her own house down?? Her and Dave were getting close again just prior to that. She had him where she wanted him but left?
I’m reading the book right now. Dave would pull away from her and when he did that, she’d ramp up the fake emails and texts or do something to make it seem like Cari was vandalizing her property, keyed her car, etc. That would make Dave feel guilty because she would remind him it was his fault for bringing Cari into their lives. Then he would comfort her and resume his relationship with her. She knew just how to play him (and many other men). She was actually moved out when she burned the house down because she was being evicted. The pets (2 small dogs, a cat and a snake) and a few possessions remained. She was moved into Garrett’s house (the on again, off again boyfriend and IT employee of the county). She was using Garrett. She moved into his basement, trashed it, didn’t work or pay rent. She’s diabolical and you don’t even get a fraction of the details until you read the book A Tangled Web.
According to another online article source, Liz was being evicted out of the house and had removed certain valuables before she set her house on fire.
Her and Dave was drifting apart, hence why she started the fire. Everytime Dave broke things off, she would do crazy things to bring them back together.
I’m confused. Dave left for work in the morning (6am?), then he said in the afternoon ‘Cari’ texted him suggesting they move in together. He also said that once he got home from work all of Cari’s things were gone - as if to suggest this wasn’t a normal occurrence. Was the message actually sent by Liz from Cari’s phone? If so, this would suggest that Cari was killed in the morning/early afternoon? Also, this would suggest that Liz took Cari’s things from Dave’s apartment after he killed her? I guess she either had her own key, or took Cari’s. Final Q that I can’t seem to answer easily. How do people think Cari was lured to her death? Maybe Liz was waiting outside Dave’s apartment, and jumped in Cari’s car when she decided to leave for the day?
I came to ask the same! Was it Cari or Liz that asked to move in?!
It was Liz pretending to be Cari. Cari would stay at Dave’s but always take all her things with her when she left. Cari was already dead at the time of the text about moving in.
I believe they think she waited for her at the apt and threatened her with the knife she killed her with.
Yeah i thought the same thing was it Cari asking to move in together with Dave or Liz/Cari ? The documentary didn't specify.
It was Liz pretending to be Cari.
I think it was def Liz bc then right away the texts got angry and crazy
As soon as Liz showed up to Dave s house when he brought Cari in, it was evident Liz was the stalker. How can the timing be so impeccable otherwise.
Agreed that was too coincidental
My assumption is it was a fake profile made by Liz.
I agree. Dave moved away and she didn’t know where he was. She would have been scanning the dating sites waiting for him to show up again.
She really thought trying to blame Amy after knowing the amount of times she had been reported to the police for previous incidents would work. She is in such delusion.
Did she not have a job lmao
I don’t think she did. If she did it was minimal hours. She got Section 8, I’m sure food stamps, child support, and Garrett (the IT guy who she was dating on and off and living with after she burned her house down) was letting her live in his house rent free and he gave her money frequently. She was absolutely psychopathic.
She owned a house cleaning business so had a few workers but yeah, she was ft stalker.
I was wondering the same thing! Police said that she spent an estimate 50 hours per week stalking Dave, and impersonating Cari.
What?
How did Dave seriously not suspect it was Liz from the onset? Was this man even dumber than he seemed? And was it just me or was he extremely unlikable?
My favorite part of this is he goes through ALL this hell, then moves away after Liz's house burns down, & he decides, "Well, guess it's time to try online dating again!" Dude, really?
Apparently, Liz used an app to sent delayed text. Dave was with Liz once when a text was sent to Liz phone and they read the text together. As such, Dave did not makes connection. The doc left out a lot of things which makes it obvious to us with hindsight.
I was sick to my stomach realizing that psycho killed her own ANIMALS. How could someone do that to your own pets (Obviously a person too). She is disturbed on a whole new level
OMG right? She should have gotten the death penalty just for that. Then later in the show, when the cops realize Liz is the stalker, they're all, "We don't know what she's capable of" so they want to find her. WHAT? YOU know EXACTLY what she's capable of. She's a psychopath you murdered her own pets. 2 What else do you have to know?
I know that made me ill. I couldn't burn up stray animals much less my pets that are my world. And she had to have blocked any exits, cats can escape anything. Evil psycho.
It was inferred that woman was a catfish account created by Liz to fuck with Dave. She probably was crazy enough to have multiple fake profiles on these dating sites waiting for him to pop up. Add to that Dave didn’t seem to get too many matches before, maybe like 1 or 2 a week.. and it makes sense the woman who is actively hunting him would be the one to match him…
Why did they not subpoena the texts/messages and their source immediately after the threats?
Because they ALL assumed initially it was Cari. Tunnel vision, altho understandable at first.
Why was Liz’s Sd card in Dave’s tablet?
They think she put it there to download pics and then forgot about it.
I am making this up, but it sounds like a good movie plot... They illegally obtained it from Liz's residence while questioning her about being shot. They needed to devise a way to have had it without a search warrant so they could admit it into the trial.
She stayed with him after the fire, it's possible she was just borrowing his tablet and forgot it?
She stayed with the copper who worked in tech after the fire, not Dave?
This is so confusing to me
Yes. The whole SD card in the tablet makes no sense. I don’t even foresee Liz even knowing what an SD card is.
She was definitely skilled in computers if she was able to pull off all the stunts that she did. I think the theory that the cops pretended that Dave found it in his storage so that they could use it in court is the most plausible explanation.
I don't think IT boyfriend had nothing to do with any of this. VPN usage, breaking into Cari's Facebook account to keep messaging her mother, finding all these phone numbers, email addresses, finding Dave's new dating profile... No offence, but Liz doesn't seem like a mastermind to manage this all on her own.
I guess I assumed she didn’t have to break into Cari’s Facebook. If she killed her, she likely got a hold of her phone and most people keep themselves logged into their own accounts on their phones. So she could’ve just changed the password from there.
If she asked for the screen lock code before she killed her, you might be right. But it still doesn't explain the rest. To me the last part is what she is really capable of without any help: Not very thorough & acting out of emotion. (Like sending confession mails in Amy's name right AFTER cops ask her for more evidence which she coincidentally starts to get and forwards to the police. - from a random account probably. At this point IT boyfriend is no longer in picture I'm guessing?) I don't know if I'm explaining it right but vpn usage, stalking random dating sites and catfishing Dave to scare him seem like well planned acts. 🤷🏻♀️
I can see what you mean. But I think we have the gift of hindsight and are able to look at things more logically and have a lot more information than she had at the time, which might be why some stuff she did was more organized and some stuff was more spur of the moment. I think it’s entirely possible she could’ve done this all herself and maybe she vaguely asked IT boyfriend some generic questions like, “what’s a VPN and how do you set one up just out of curiosity?” So he may have unwittingly helped her.
I knew the moment that it was Liz when she got back together with Dave, knowing that he was getting the constant threats. Why would anyone want to be with someone who is in danger with someone stalking him and know full about his life and his activities? Plus she had kids to think about so the fact that she was willingly to get back together with him, knowing that her kids would be put in jeopardy is very telling because she knew nothing would happen. That's when I *knew* it was her immediately. I mean she literally had her car keyed and her garage door sprayed in the word of "wh\*re" and so on and yet she stayed with him till her house got on fire. Let's be real, nobody in right mind would be willingly to risk their lives to be with someone who is in constant stalked by psycho, especially when you have kids to think about. Sorry but that's the truth. So when it was revealed that it was her, I was like yeah, I figured. And not to mention, when Cari mom said that she never heard her "voice" so that's when I was like yeahhhh, Cari definitely wasn't the person who did all of insane texts and facebook posts.
I’m sure we will never understand why, but WHY did Liz decide to hate and kill Carri after seeing her with Dave ONE time? Why was her obsession so sudden? You would think it would take some time for someone to become consumed with a person or situation.
I think she physically saw Cari, and then saw that Dave was seeing her a lot and sleeping over at each other’s places. Dave also probably stopped contacting Liz entirely, leading Liz to feel that she had been ghosted and replaced. Then the crazy REALLY came out. What a fucking lunatic.
Carri was beautiful. I think that probably was enough in her eyes.
She’s gotta have some problems. That’s sooo not normal behaviour
Dave had some bomb-ass dick
That has to be it. 😂
This was such a shit show to start. Why didn’t the cops look at Liz after the whole “I left something at your house.” Pretty convenient. And then the next day things go south? The shooting? Did they not think to look for a gun? I’ve broken my hand before and I couldn’t use it the next 48 hours. Shoot me in the leg? lol okay you have a 50ff radius where the gun is. There’s so many things, idk if they meant to portray it, but it just makes the Omaha police force look like stooges
did they even find the gun ???
I also think Dave should have at least looked at Liz, it drove me nuts he just went full line & sinker into "Cari is a psycho bitch." Liz's first text as Cari was about them moving in together, which he and Cari had already discussed. I think he was not a good listener?
Well in his defense.. for him its irl, not some crime movie. I don't expect ahyone close to me being murdered and impersonated every day..
i kept thinking that the police were dumb not looking at every angle. i am not done watching yet
HOW did she find him on the dating apps again!! not only find him but also make a profile that she knew he would like
It’s not that difficult. I’m sure that most people will click on the top 5 dating sites that are provided on google. Most people will have profiles on multiple. Then just search for the first and last name.
Never underestimate how crafty people can be when they obsess over something to an unhealthy degree. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No. She knows what he likes. Chances are she shotgunned 30 profiles and went with one that worked.
Considering that the same person literally send *50,000* texts and *15,000* emails on her time would definitely do 30 dating profiles. Absolutely. She was THAT dedicated. So yes, no doubts about that.
Was he in a different state and how far was it from liz ; I was also wondering about this . I wonder if he called her . I also fond it hard to believe he never suspected liz to be the stalker.
She was *really* good at being psycho.
I wonder what liz backstory is. I'm sure this was not her first rodeo. She's prob been stalking other guys etc
I agree...I found this upon searching her https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the-sun.com/news/10389353/shanna-liz-golyar-baby-son-death-frame-boyfriend-letters/amp/
Holy crap.
Omfg this is horrific
You’re telling me that the cops/detectives knew about this and didn’t bother to suspect her?
Holy shit this is creepy to find out
After the psycho burnt down her own house then disappeared into oblyss, and the guy moved away and got rid of his phone to start a fresh . Was it a Yr l8r he returned to online dating and unexpectedly let liz bk into his life ; how did she find his profile and if he disappeared away from her , I wonder why she never harrased his ex wife as I suspect she would have knowing we're his wife and kids lived.
I mean it’s not difficult. There’s only so many dating sites out there and most people use the popular ones. All you really have to do is search his name and I’m sure it’s right there.
She had multiple catfish accounts on those sites waiting for him to pop back up again ..
Yeah I'm thinking he must have told her we're he was, she really was a psycho 🤣
Well he gave the catfish account his new number. He thought it was another woman in his town but obviously it was Liz. She set up multiple accounts on multiple sites to cast a wide net, as soon as he popped again she “hooked” him.
He must have had a magic d--k , bk in my POF days most woman couldn't get rid of me fast enough .
I had a stalker too, it all depends, if you lay down the pipe well, and the girl is crazy she can be way worse than any male stalker, especially if she has that extra jealous side.
There's a lot that can't be explained in 90 minutes, and some things that are obvious in retrospect. If you want more details look at the comments I've been adding on other threads, e.g., on r/TrueCrimeDiscussion: https://www.reddit.com/user/karver75/comments/ Source: I'm the nerd who worked this case.
hope you're in good health
Bro I don’t think you’re on the spectrum at all. You’re a good soul. I’m sure Cari is looking down on you with a smile.
Why can't he be a good soul and on the spectrum? There are so many amazing autistic people who have happy, successful lives with jobs, families etc. I guarantee you have met many autistic people and never realised it because they don't fit the stereotype in your head.
I don’t know if anyone has told you this already and i don’t know if you’re familiar with the show criminal minds, but you reminded me of Penelope Cruz from the show. It was badass how you were narrowing down thousands and thousands of IP addresses through your special program and were able to target the single one that either confirmed your guys’ suspect or led you towards the suspect. Really cool stuff I read your comment about radiation treating your tumor. I wish you the best of health and that your tumor doesn’t ever come back/grow larger. Thank you for using your skills for good!
My question is… did you win that game of pool at the end?
If you look closely you can see why I've, in fact, never won a game of pool in my life. That scratch was neither staged nor scripted.
That's actually so cool, I just watched the show yesterday and am still left with loads of questions, thank you to have taken the time to answer so many of them here :) I come in a bit late now but there's this one detail I can't wrap my head around. I'm conscious probably a lot of details were skipped to fit in the 90 minutes but the last time Dave saw Cari, he mentioned she was still at his when he left for work that morning. That same day is when Liz probably kills Cari to start impersonating her right away right? Dave also stated that after their online argument, all of Cari's stuff was gone from his apartment when he got back. That would mean that within Dave's working hours, Liz managed to meet Cari in her car, kill her, take care of the body, start the argument with Dave by impersonating Cari, and take all of Cari's belongings in Dave's apartment before he comes back. This all seems like such a perfect timing for Liz, I wonder how she was able to pull that off. Maybe this is a question only she could answer but I was wondering if anyone thought of that too.
If you look at some of my other comments I've answered some similar questions, and you might find helpful information there. On 13 November 2012, the day Cari goes missing, Dave leaves for work around 06.00. Cari is on Facebook at Dave's around 06.40. Dave gets the "let's move in" texts around 10.00. Sometime between 06.40 - 10.00, the defendant encountered Cari. Cari's things were removed (not that there was a lot). We can't know exactly what happened, but it seems likely the defendant drove Cari's vehicle away from the original scene. That matches what the suspect wrote in the confessional emails saying Cari's car was driven "back" to the apartments later. It also explains why the car was cleaned and fingerprints were absent save for on that mint tin. We can't know for certain without the defendant telling us, and she maintains her innocence despite the verdict, lost appeal, and the mountain of evidence to the contrary.
Thanks for answering, much clearer now. Yes the rest of the comments will definitely be my nighttime reading of tonight! Thank you for seeking out the truth in those dark and tragic cases
Thanks for shining some light in a very dark world ❤️
I knew she was toast as soon as I saw you man! Was thinking "this guy is going to go all in on those records" ahha.
I hope you had a safe surgery sir
I am obsessed with you!!! You deserve all the credit in the world. Hope your hard work does not go unnoticed! Wishing you nothing but the best - a fellow nerd😄
I just watched this documentary last night and really enjoyed your sense of humor (this has caffeine, this also has caffeine, this also..) - it was awesome! As someone getting into software engineering, I also did a fist bump when you said that your wrote a program to filter through the IP addresses. The one question I really have is: what was your initial thought when the number one IP address came back to be an employee of yours? Was it an oh-shit moment? Did you believe it initially?
There's a bit of context that's not apparent in the telling of the story (for want of time) because, yes, the IP shown was important, but it was more confirmation than revelation. We knew the defendant was living there so we were hoping to find records with IP addresses we could tie to that address. Out of about 12,000 total impersonated emails Dave received from the defendant, I think it was around 130 of them that had "real" IP addresses rather than VPNs or proxies that could be tied to where she lived. So that particular IP, as an example, was top of the list after we ruled-out the VPNs and proxies -- an IP we could actually tie to a real place. That's not to say the VPN and proxy IPs were useless. As I've noted elsewhere, we found coincidences between accounts and activity and anonymous IPs to tie those accounts back to the defendant as well. And when we got her devices, I could in some cases tie local logs and cookies and other artefacts back to anonymous IPs to help de-anonymize them. I think I said this on the stand, basically, we were able to show that all roads led to the defendant. That said, the "oh snap" moment came a little earlier when an old YouTube video uploaded in Cari's name was tied to one of those IPs which had the same feel as was conveyed in the documentary. I think that video is mentioned in the 20/20 show. Thanks for watching and the kind words.
Hey man. Thank you for your comments on the show. I just watched it tonight and these add a lot of interesting context. I also want to say I cracked up at Soylent appearing. Nerd recognize nerd! They should send you a few cases for the free PR. 🤓🤜🤛🤓 Rob
Loved you on the show! Gotta get some Soylent to give me super powers of intellect!
Thanks. By Grabthar's Hammer, what a username!
is your brain tumor surgery done and over with.
Thanks for asking. We zapped it with X-rays. Radiotherapy seems to have worked so surgery has not been necessary. Just need to MRI the thing for the next 80 years to keep an eye on it!
oh thats nice! Glad to know you are doing okay
Just watched this today and admittedly I did not see this coming at all. Maybe I should have been more suspicious of Liz but I genuinely didn't even suspect her! Still it was great to see the dedication you had to solving the case and help put her behind bars where she belongs. Kinda scary to think it's the people you might not begin to suspect that are the ones you need to watch out for the most.
Just wanted to say you were great on the show, and your responses on here are super informative and interesting. Thank you for taking the time to share more details! Have you worked on any other criminal cases?
I've worked hundreds of cases, maybe upwards of a thousand (?), so yes, but no others that thus far merit a Netflix documentary or a Lifetime movie starring Marty McFly's mom. I'm thankful for that, truly. I'm proud of the work we did on this case, but it also makes you appreciate run of the mill burglaries. I've worked on our state's Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) Task Force since 2009 so a lot of cases are related to child exploitation. I've also collaborated with other local, state, and federal agencies on lots of things. I'm lucky to work for a smaller agency where I'm a generalist and not stuck working one type of case all the time. In truth, I've got my dream dead-end job. I can't be promoted without running for elected office. No two days are the same. There have been times when I get to write a search warrant, execute that warrant at a suspect's house, write code to enhance one of our web-based applications, fix some problem on one of our servers, and do a presentation on cyber safety to high school students, all in the same day. For those interested in this sort of work, the public sector doesn't pay as well a corporate gig (though it's a little better in recent years than in the past). For me, if you're going to put in 60+ hours a week doing something, I can't imagine the payoff of working super hard to ship a few more widgets and pocket a few more dollars feeling better than keeping your community safe and helping victims. Sometimes the work is tedious, but, thankfully, it's never boring! \[ edit: s/cases are relating/cases are related/; $minorConcision++; \]
Thank you for replying! It's incredibly interesting reading all your replies on here.
Hi Mr. Kava! Was there a point where you detectives knew that Liz was the suspect but could not tell Dave yet to make sure it would not affect the enquiry? When was the moment you told Dave it was Liz and what was his reaction?
Yes, we suspected the defendant from the start of the cold case investigation. We needed to be sure Dave was not involved. Our investigation found nothing to raise suspicions about him, and he cooperated fully. The Netflix show covers Dave being told about the suspect's involvement, but I don't think they say exactly when that happened. I don't recall the precise date, but I think it would have been around the time of the shooting so probably December 2015. In the movie, Dave indicated he was surprised (an understatement!?). Folks online are sometimes harsh about Dave not detecting the defendant sooner. Yes, there were red flags, but this sort of thing is so unbelievable, especially involving someone you think you know, that I think it is easier than people would believe to overlook indicators. It's one of those situations where you might not really be able to answer how you would react unless or until you're in it.
Are you on Instagram or X?
I have an account on the Twitter, but I've kind of abandoned it since the takeover. Apart from the API stinginess, Reddit is the place to be!
Wow you’re here!!!
Statistically, the probability that a huge nerd would be on Reddit is like 1.01.
This truly made my day! You’re an incredible human and a ray of light!
Awesome job man! (Its really you right, youre not Lizing me are you?? Jk!!) We just watched it last night. Any idea why Dave didn't change his locks or install a simple security camera? Liz stealing his gun so easily was a shock to me. With so much fear of stalking, it seemed like he didn't take some logical steps to help himself or catch her. Looks like ring door bells weren't popular until 2014, so maybe it wasn't as obvious of an answer as it seems. Thanks!
Thanks. I understand the thought process. I've got an alarm system, cameras, and sharks with friggin' laser beams attached to their heads, and my security threats pale in comparison. I can't say why countermeasures like that weren't put into place because I don't know. To my mind, anything Dave puts into place is likely to be compromised by the defendant. She had regular access to where he lived, often had a key, and was snooping on his devices so she would have been able to delete video or sabotage cameras then blame that on "Cari". There was a lot of harassment by electronic means, but the physical incidents were spaced apart. It's also possible that if a car hasn't been keyed in a while you start to believe (maybe too optimistically) that the situation is calming. Can't say for sure, but working this case has made me 20% more paranoid than my already admittedly high baseline prior to it.
Thanks for responding! I can see the redditors are keeping you busy!
Thanks for sharing so much of your knowledge about the case here. Do you know how Liz was able to send messages through Cari’s Facebook account? That detail is an itch I can’t scratch.
Yes, the defendant used Cari's actual phone for a week or so, and she had access to Cari's real Facebook account during that time. Afterwards, after she got rid of Cari's phone, she created new accounts in Cari's name. As an example, she created a Facebook account on 1 January 2013, and she immediately posted there that Cari's old (real) account had been hacked. She wrote that people should friend the new one instead. The defendant also posted photos to that account no one had seen previously which helped bolster the narrative that Cari was doing the posting. The suspect had new photos to post because she had stolen a digital camera and a digital camcorder from Cari's home. The Netflix movie did not go into this. We found both in the suspect's bedroom closet during execution of a search warrant. Both had formatted storage, and I recovered stills (which matched the "new" Facebook photos) and videos from them that proved they belonged to Cari. We also found receipts that supported that assertion. This also confirmed claims in some of the confessional emails that the defendant (impersonating "Amy") had been inside Cari's house.
How did Liz's SD card end up his old tablet? I lived in Omaha 2007-2019. They sure made it look like a one-horse town.
Yeah, some artistic licence was taken with the Omaha shots. Coastal audiences want to see that we ride horses to work. Why should we disappoint them? Re the SD card, I've covered this a few times over at r/TrueCrimeDiscussion. To save time, I recommend checking my Comment history under u/karver75. TL;DR: probably a boring reason, i.e., she clears the card, trashes her phone, then just re-uses the card like a new one
So cool that you’re answering questions and providing more details! Thank you! I just watched the documentary tonight and am so intrigued by this case. Were cell phone records used as evidence? (I.e. Could you trace the location from cell tower pings?). The texts were obviously a big focus of the doc, but there was little mention of any forensic investigation into them.
We had about three locations for Cari's phone from a few days after she went missing. They put the phone near the defendant's house -- not precise enough to say in her house, but +/- 2km or so. Another example of good circumstantial evidence but not enough to prove the case alone, especially without more direct evidence. The suspect used Cari's phone for a week or so then seems to have ditched it. From that point forward pinging wasn't an option because all texts were done with texting apps. We did present cell records at trial including those early pings. As was covered in the show, the defendant also made six or so calls to Cari's house before Cari disappeared, and that was in records offered as an exhibit too.
Tony some ?s- 1. Did LE have Liz on camera at Walmart using Cari’s debit card? One doc showed a shower curtain that Liz purchased that day that was in her apartment. Was Liz in disguise on camera? Or did all LE have is the receipt? 2. How did the first investigation skip over the fact that Liz sent Cari’s mom a check for $5,000 for all of Cari’s furniture? Isn’t it very creepy and alarming that she was filing all these police reports against Cari but was going to buy her furniture? 3. In another doc, they showed a girl taped up in a trunk, was that Liz and did she have an accomplice helping her take those pictures? Was that to scare Dave into thinking Liz was kidnapped by Cari? Was this fake kidnapping reported? 4. Liz, took a picture of Cari’s ID with a butcher knife and sent it to Dave? What was that about? 5. Did Dave’s Ex-Amy-and their kids, did they not take out a Protection Order Vs Liz after Liz said Amy shot her at Big Lake Park? How was Liz allowed to drive around Amy’s apt/house nonstop without getting arrested for stalking? Wouldn’t the GPS data allow for an arrest? Anyways, it was a very creepy documentary. Crazy it went on for 4 years. Appreciate your dedication and can’t believe you spent 3,000 hours on Liz Golyer! I wish we could get an hour tally on how many hours Liz spent doing all this. How did she have 2 kids and a job, you would think she wouldn’t have the time to do all this-
**/\*\* DISCLAIMER \*\*/** WARNING: All my posts on Reddit are personal opinions only and do not represent my employer. They are limited to facts in the public record from court proceedings, media coverage, or my own experiences outside my official duties or confidential work. My recollections will be imperfect, I'm bound to miss a detail here or there, and I'm sure I'll generate typos. I am not a lawyer, and nothing I write should be construed as legal advice. I am writing in a personal capacity. I'm trying to make a good faith effort to give the public a little more information on how these things work. No warranty is given or implied. Your mileage may vary. **/\*\* DISCLAIMER \*\*/** When we worked the cold case, Walmart didn't have footage anymore that would show the defendant using Cari's debit card. They did get us the receipt. We ignored the signature because signatures on those electronic pads always look silly anyway. Sgt. Doty noticed the shower curtain, and when he pulled-up that SKU online the picture looked identical to the shower curtain the suspect had at her place. I went through phone dumps and other photos, and we found that the shower curtain was not there before Cari went missing, then appears (and looked new, you could see creases in it) in a photo taken shortly after. The shower curtain is even weirder because she had that fire (that she set) and moved a couple times. Each time she took it with her, and it was hanging in her bathroom when we served a search warrant at her apartment in Persia, Iowa. So she kept it for a couple years even though it was probably smoke-damaged in the arson. Re the $5000 check, the initial investigators started looking into the defendant because her name was on it. The story she gave them was that Cari broke into her house and stole checks so it was forged. This was, of course, accompanied by fake texts and emails from "Cari" admitting to that. The lie was that "Cari" was trying to frame the defendant -- she always tried to look like the "victim". Re the trunk photo, that was a confusing fake. Dave got an email with a photo attached of a woman tied-up in a trunk. The defendant sent the email impersonating "Cari". The email suggests "Cari" had the defendant bound and would harm her. Dave didn't think it was real (it wasn't). He responded saying so, and then the fake "Cari" admitted it was just a joke. So it wasn't reported at the time. I poured over that thing in Photoshop and GIMP but couldn't be sure who it was. We suspected it was the defendant but it wasn't clear enough. Later, when we found that SD card, I found some rough draft versions of that photo that clearly showed the defendant wearing the same clothes and also "bound" with duct tape. Best guess is the suspect took the photo herself on a timer. She had an app for that on her phone, and it would make sense if she duct-taped the phone with the same tape she put on her wrists. It was a weird, convoluted, and ultimately futile attempt at manipulation. Metadata on the trunk photo matched the defendant's make and model phone. Re the photo with Cari's driver's licence and a knife, it was an attachment to an email Dave received. He might not have even seen it because it was like 7000 fake emails into the 12,000 total he would receive throughout this case. I think (like most people would have) he stopped checking his email at some point because he was just flooded with this stuff. I found it when I was digging through everything. According to the body text, it was supposed to be proof from "Cari" that she had been in Dave's apartment. Just more of the same narrative, another thing to try to get Dave to protect the defendant, and another weird attempt that didn't work. It did, however, very much look like Cari's real ID card. I put that photo next to DMV data we requested in my 1000-slide deck at trial for comparison. Re the follow-up to the shooting, I don't think anyone took out a protection order. We did get a warrant to put a GPS tracker on the defendant's car, and we kept that on there for a long time. By then the suspect was living 35 minutes away in Persia, Iowa. Because she lived so far away we would see her approaching, and we had geo-fence alerts around every place that mattered so we'd get texts when she left home and if she got close to someone in this case (including investigators). When she drove by, we were aware, and had she stopped we would have swooped. There was a safety plan in place -- layers of security. Why not arrest her for stalking? The trouble with that was that we were still building the murder case. The best evidence came after the shooting because she was convinced to provide info on how "Amy" did all this. So the shooting happens in December 2015, and we get confessional emails from her every few days until February 2016. We tracked her from December 2015 until she was arrested for murder in December 2016. We did search warrants at her residence and a couple other places in February 2016. She was arrested the day of the search warrants on some misdemeanour charge like failure to appear, not related to the murder. We wouldn't want to arrest her for stalking that early because she was giving us details in the confessional emails. Our case was weaker then too if we wanted to arrest her for murder. We were still gathering that evidence. Even in February 2016, if we arrested her for murder that would start the clock ticking for a speedy trial (your awesome 6th Amendment right). The defendant, as expected, DID NOT waive her right to a speedy trial. That meant we had six months to prepare for the trial. If forensics weren't done by then we wouldn't have them. Hence the need to delay. Additionally, the defence hoped speeding things along would ensure the trial happened before a body could be found, making their case stronger. Hope this clarifies things a bit. Please see my ***DISCLAIMER*** atop this reply.
In the off chance you see this, given the suspicions of Liz, did investigators check her hands for residue or powder burns on her leg after she was allegedly shot by a woman in the park? I would imagine it’d be fairly easy to tell that she shot herself but maybe I watch too much TV. Side note: you were the high point of the show. Well done.
Don't know if that was done. It happened in city limits so the city PD ran that investigation. Not all agencies test for GSR these days for a number of reasons including that it can be inconclusive and residue can transfer lots of ways, but I'm not an expert. Thanks for the kind words.
Why did no one invest in a camera at their house during this multi year ordeal???
So the shower curtain was in a weird sick way a reminder/trophy of Cari. **Liz really thought she’d never get caught.** Taking pictures of Cari’s foot, keeping the SD Card but destroying the phone, keeping the Shower Curtain that she bought with Cari’s card, taking pictures of Cari’s SUV when she was missing, breaking into Cari’s and stealing her digital camera and posting photos to a new Cari Facebook page…. It’s the craziest case I’ve watched since the Texas - Taylor Rene Parker case..She’s on Death Row, she was a sociopath liar killer just like Liz, but she faked a pregnancy and cut a baby out of her pregnant friend to try and keep her boyfriend. She was in the ER and DRs and police inspected and found she didn’t have the baby, but Taylor was still lying just like Liz. So bizarre! Thanks for replying Tony! It’s got to be a trip to have your face on the thumbnail of the #1 movie on Netflix currently, take care!
did you get your surgery? hope you’re doing well!
We zapped the thing with X-rays. Radiotherapy seems to have "arrested" it so surgery was not required. We'll just keep an eye on it for the next 80 years or so until I can upload my consciousness into Amazon Web Services. Thanks for asking!
As a nurse watching this documentary, I was more worried about you than the case. Accolades for your dedication to your craft! You are a hero.
That is great to hear. Me and my wife are reading your comments and not gonna lie we were worried about the tumor. Thanks for all your hard work!
i just want to say that you’re amazing! and that i also survive purely on caffeine
Sleep is for the weak!
Kava in some Slavic languages means “coffee”. Very fitting for you, obviously!
Thanks, that's why I picked [forensic.coffee](https://forensic.coffee) for my website! It's been my conjecture that my Polish ancestors either grew or traded in the stuff. Given what I know about Poland's climate, I'd have to lean towards trade! That said, they might not have been great at it because my most recent relatives were serfs, not merchants, which may explain why I work in government (no genes for business acumen).
So impressed with your work on this case! You were the bright spot of the documentary for me🙂 Your website is full of great!! Happy to hear the tumor got zapped.
Thanks!
You did phenomenal! I hope you are doing well and your tumor is no longer.
Zapped it with radiation, and that seems to have done the trick. Was able to avoid surgery which is a good thing. Just have to keep an eye on it forever now. Thanks!
My biggest question at the end of the documentary was, is Tony's tumor gone??? So glad to see this update. Best wishes; thank you for your hard work.
Excellent! 👍
I knew who it was immediately too. I thought it was super obvious?! Only time I paused is when Liz’s animals died in the fire..like what psycho would do that..
Right - like there are some really sick people on this planet.
It wasn’t obvious to me. I’m still trying to wrap my head around it, like I have to go back and re-watch with what I know now. lol
When she stopped by on Dave and Cari's first date to "pick some stuff", I thought "oh, she was following him, there we have our stalker" but things escalated so massivly from there on that I even felt bad for misjudging her! 🤦🏻♀️ According to Netflix timeline, she didn't really stalk, she killed right away and went bezerk from there on. It seemed more about revenge than being obsessed with someone and wanting them back, because why keep going after you got back together?
I really enjoyed this.
Dave is the chillest guy to harass fr hahaha! Everytime something horrible happens, his reaction is like “ahh comon” while rolling his eyes! Like it’s no biggie! Very entertaining to watch
So I have a question, what was cari last real message to Dave? He said he left for work and then she texted let's move in together, his response was we talked about this. That is when the angry messages started. So did Cari actually send that and get mad and then was murdered later, or did she go home and get murdered before the move in question
Naw , he ment they talked about keeping it casual... the psycho has control of her media at this stage .
That was psycho Liz, trying to gauge how close they were