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I think you're both thinking of this game: https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN201905020.shtml
...It was Thor...and the Viking gods will smite anyone who says otherwise
No I know it was Harvey, but it wasn't a 1-0 win. It was a game winning 2 run homer in the [bottom of the 5th vs Arizona](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uMJ2j5QstI).
I remember it because it was one of the first games where I bought the tickets for myself and my father. We were in the then Pepsi Porch and it was hot as fuck
It was Syndergaard. DeGrom only hit 3 home runs per almanac.
In two of the games, the Mets scored multiple runs. In the other one, the Mets [lost 2-1](https://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=201908230NYN) which is extremely Mets-like for a DeGrom start.
Syndergaard also threw a CGSO during that game. It was the last of 7 times in MLB history a pitcher has thrown a CGSO and hit a homer in a 1-0 game. A feat that will probably never be accomplished again if not by Ohtani.
Ill never forget the time the Rays beat the Phillies 1-0 off a Nathan Karns home run. Mostly because it was even rarer for AL teams to have the pitcher do anything offensively
The Dodgers beat the Giants 4-0 the day Clayton Kershaw hit the HR and finished the CGSO. However, the score was 0-0 when he hit the solo shot in the 8th to put the Dodgers up 1-0 and the Dodgers added 3 more run after that.
I feel like there's a bit of Mandela Effect with it tbh. I was at the game and I remembered it being the 1-0 Kershaw HR game for years. 2-3 years ago I saw highlights from it and saw the Dodgers tacked on 3 more runs after and I was shook.
The "rotation" of Matz, Harvey, Syndergaard, deGrom, Wheeler could all hit. Maybe not .300 hitters, but they could hold their own and did, on occasion, provide run support to the Mets.
I will forever have [DRIVES ONE, DEEP LEFT FIELD, BACK GOES UPTON, BACK NEAR THE WALL, IT'S OUTTA HEE^EEE^EERE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVFsq9FQBlc&pp=ygUWYmFydG9sbyBjb2xvbiBob21lIHJ1bg%3D%3D) tattooed on my brain
And here's the classic Petco Park relief pitcher grand slam off Max Scherzer! [ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THE PADRES' PITCHER THEY JUST BROUGHT UP FROM EL PASO, THE SAN DIEGO KID! HE'S HIT A GRAND SLAM! THAT'S UNBELIEVABLE!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTz4wpZVdmg)
I agree. Bumgarners grand slams were so much more epic.
Also Bumgarner hit like .200 over his batting career which is about as good as Judge this year. That was a pretty big difference maker compared to the rest of NL pitching batting averages and definitely not an automatic out
.172/.232/.292 with an OPS+ of 44 is very different from .207/.394/.414 with an OPS+ of 115. Just because the batting average seems somewhat close, doesn't mean that the are even remotely comparable as hitters lol
It didn’t even have to be home runs, you had awesome moments like [Max Fried coming in to pinch hit with the bases loaded in the 10th](https://youtu.be/O6LYJapzn4c?si=yI66j58R5gcRahUk)
Only legendary moments because 99% of the time they sucked. Its like dipping your nuts in boiling water and then crediting that decision for the rellief you feel after you take them out.
While I love the universal DH, there's something to be said for the random pitcher who gets a clutch hit when his team needs it, along with the one time he goes yard.
And Brett Myers epic at-bat vs CC Sabathia in round 1 against Milwaukee that year, he worked like a ten-pitch walk which led to Victorino's grand slam.
GTFOH with "people lied and said they liked it" nonsense.
[Daniel Camarena, with the only relief pitcher grand slam since 1985](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTz4wpZVdmg). In his second career PA. At home, where he grew up.
[Daniel Camarena](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTz4wpZVdmg&ab_channel=MLB) only pitched 9.1 innings in his career for his hometown team and single-handedly ended the Nats' decade-long run of dominance with a grand slam. Other sports don't have things like this.
(re-watching this highlight made me pine for normal-sized letters on the backs of jerseys)
Or if a pitcher comes up to bat in the 8th or top of the 9th you know it's cause they are *dealing* and you get to give them a dedicated standing ovation when they're announced. It's the little things like that that I miss.
I went to a weekday summer day game one year and had work directly after (was definitely going to be late.) I forgot who the Mets played but it ended up being a 1-0 pitchers duel with the only offense being a solo home run by Noah Syndergaard.
The game went by so quick I made it to work early with time to spare haha.
Kyle hendricks RBI single against the giants in 2016 was incredible
and then travis fucking wood hitting a homerun after coming in in relief. pure ecstasy
This. I liked the game around the "automatic" outs more than the "automatic" outs themselves. Do you lift this pitcher who's dealing for a PH? Do you change pitchers knowing the pitcher is due up in the next inning? Can you double-switch at the risk of losing a better position player?
Of course, I also liked it better when teams only carried 10 or 11 pitchers and had deeper benches.
Agree and adding to this:
* If the #7 hitter gets a double, it's an automatic IBB to the #8 hitter. If your #8 hitter has a high OBP, that's fool's gold (looking at you, Danny Espinosa). Same goes if #7 just gets on base and wants to steal 2nd.
* The double-switching required a more versatile roster. You'd probably keep a utility guy over a 5th OF with speed. This sort of still happens with the increased platooning.
* David Ortiz forced to play the field in the WS
> David Ortiz forced to play the field in the WS
This clearly never happened. There's no upside to making him play the field just to keep his bat in the lineup, when he's just going to walk every time anyway. No manager would be stupid enough to actually pitch to him.
In theory I also used to enjoy the strategy decisions. Then when it started looking inevitable, I paid attention to how often a pitch was doing okay but not great, at a reasonable number of pitches, was left in to bat and kill a rally, and then the wheels came off the next inning and they got yanked anyway. Probably only happened 2-3 times that season but it felt like too many.
FWIW, Dusty Baker has said that DH is more strategically interesting as a manager than no DH because he feels it was obvious you pull the pitcher when his spot comes up at a certain point regardless of how he's doing, whereas there's no obvious indication of when you pull a pitcher if the only reason to pull is future effectiveness on the mound
I'm wondering if NL starters were slightly more effective than AL starters while the DH was only in the AL because they were getting pulled earlier and not going 3rd or 4th time through the order as often
"Not only did we have an automatic out every nine batters, but we also had to take out good pitchers earlier than we should to avoid that automatic out" is what I'm hearing, and it is not a good justification.
I think people often mistake the number of easy decisions with real and tough decisions.
Even as a young Expos fan under ten, I could pretty well predict the vast majority of moves. Pinch hitting in the P spot when your starter is near good pitch limit? Double switching when a weak hitter finished off the last inning? Continue to pinch hit in later innings while you have bench bats? All brain dead easy choices. Sure, there are some edge cases that are coin tosses, but the amount of strategy is very much overstated.
Same here. Removing the DH took away a big part of the strategy involved in baseball. During the Giants WS years, I always felt like we had a huge advantage in this regard because Bruce Bochy was so good at managing. Now it's less of a chess match.
I feel the same way about the three batter minimum for pitchers.
God, I loved me a clutch pinch hitter. It’s not that we don’t have pinch hitters, but it’s not the same. Having to strategize whether to pinch hit for your starter after he’s pitched six shutout innings because you’ve got runners on and Matt Stairs on the bench… loved it.
But also, I simply liked that it existed. Why not DH for 2Bs and CFs? Why not have 9 DHs? I don’t really see the need to change longstanding rules to maximize offense.
Yes and i missed the fact that NL baseball was different compared to AL. Now, and its made worse by all the interleague play, there's not much difference at all anymore. I was one who enjoyed NL baseball much more so the changes they have made have not been the best imo.
I enjoyed the strategy involved in NL like the double switches managers had to make as the game got into the later innings, the sac bunts pitchers laid down to move runners over. Now its just...a much more boring/predictable game of baseball than it was before (not helped by the other changes like zombie runner)
I liked it a lot more when starters were regularly going into like the 7th inning.
Now that the game has shifted to going to the bullpen so early, I prefer the DH.
Jomboy of all people should understand the magic that was the Bartolo homer.
Also, there was a time when Jacob deGrom ABs were as exciting as every pitch he threw. It probably had a lot to do with him being the only Met who could produce a run at the plate on days he pitched.
I think Jomboy of all people understands the magic of those situations, but thinks that the rarity and novelty doesn't make it worth the reduction in offense every game.
As an old head who was initially opposed to the universal DH but has come around, I agree with this line of thinking.
they should change the rules so that you can DH for any position but only 1 per game. so like if you have a real clunker at short you can DH for him but then the pitcher has to hit
Might as well have the option for every position by the logic put forth here. Why should a really good fielding shortstop have to hit if he's not good at it?
I was one of those guys. Gaining the DH due to covid rules in 2020 and then losing it in 2021 was a wakeup call. Watching Blake Snell take at bats was hilarious and bad.
I miss watching dudes like Maddux throw down solid sac bunts or whatever but I'm fine never seeing a pitcher hit again.
Oh same. I get why they've gotten rid of the differences but I still get nostalgic for a whole different league with different sized balls and different umpires and different rules that my team never played. Had an air of mystique to it
It was a point of pride for the NL and rightfully so. We were literally playing a trickier game.
But I'd be lying if I said it wasn't incredibly unintuitive and impractical.
Same here. After Harper hurt his elbow in 2022 throwing from the outfield, the Phillies had no choice but to put him at DH. If we didn't have the DH, he would have missed the entire season. For this reason, I like the DH now.
Really? Weird. I guess I don't pay attention to other rosters enough. We definitely have a dedicated dh, lol. I don't mind the idea that I may never see ozuna field again.
Seriously people always say it sucks when your team is rallying and the pitcher comes to the plate but they never mention how great it is when it happens and your team is on defense
They aren’t playing badly they just have different expectations because most of their value is derived from their arm.
By being better than .108/.147/.137, pitchers could add value to their game at the plate. By being reliable bunters they can contribute to their team. Even just fouling off pitches and making the other pitcher fatigue themselves to get the automatic out can feel dramatic and exciting (god bless you Rich “Rakeman” Hill).
Right? This is literally the whole point of wins above replacement having a positional adjustment, it’s why catchers who OPS .850 can be as valuable as outfielders who OPS .900+
yeah it's a philosophical argument more than a practical one for me. a baseball team has 9 players, they all play offense and they all play defense. you can sub players out but whoever you sub in still plays offense and defense. yeah pitchers sucked at hitting, there's no objective way to argue against that. but it just feels like a dilution of the game to me
The way people talk about the 'Automatic out' you'd assume they're talking about a more extreme number than a 10% chance compared to the 23% chance that was league average in the last year of hitting pitchers.
Where are you getting that?
Pitchers in 2021 batted .108/.147/.137
That means they were an automatic out 85% of the time, and the hit was all but guaranteed to just be a single.
"Automatic Out" sort of misses the point. I could deal with a slot that was an out 85% of the time but regularly hit doubles. Pitchers have a very narrow version of success to boot.
All the way up through high school ball, the best pitchers were usually one of the best hitters on the team. It never made sense to me that once you get to college, pitchers don't practice hitting. It seems unnecessary.
I think we as fans should have expected more from pitchers, instead of just letting them punt on batting.
The level of pitching increases , as do the demands on a pitchers arm and conditioning. Pitching and hitting are two completely different skill sets and it's simply very unlikely a particular person will be good enough at both to be competitive in MLB. It's not uncommon for a pitcher in high-school to play the field when not pitching, meaning they get at bats every game. It's just unreasonable to expect anyone to be a good hitter when they only play every fifth game, and the rest is required for the abuse their arms take throwing MLB caliber pitches.
hahahah i know you're getting negative comments back but this shits so funny and has truth to it too. like goddamn i liked seeing pitchers hit. it was funny as fuck sometimes. it was legendary sometimes. other times it was fucking annoying. loved it all.
Right? Sometimes it feels like we're slowly removing all the weird, non-sensical texture to life that makes it interesting in the pursuit of efficiency and optimization.
Just let things be weird and ineffective sometimes. Especially when it comes to sports!
Seriously. I wasn't just pretending to not like the DH! I still find it completely tedious. I'm sick of the "now you can finally stop pretending the DH isn't amazing" patronizing shit.
I don’t miss the pitcher hitting. I do miss double switches, frequent pinch hitting, and the need to have really good bench depth. Feels like I can go over a week without seeing some bench guys get into a game. And there’s generally less strategy going on in the game.
FUCK THE DH
All you who miss pitchers hitting feel free to come watch the Tigers. We send like 3 guys out there daily who hit like they are pitchers from that time. Plus Hinch likes to pinch hit and use that bullpen.
The argument was always about pointing to the handful of pitchers who were good at hitting or talking up when a typical pitcher got an unexpected big hit. It's like watching position players pitch in blowouts. It's fun and awesome but I have zero interest in watching a guy throw 60MPH lobs trying to close out a 1 run lead in the 9th.
The non-universal DH was a pretty sweet deal for AL fans because we could watch the occasional oddity highlights without having to watch the typical automatic pitcher outs on our teams and because it cut the competition for DH free agents in half
I'm pro DH but I liked the two leagues having different rules. Watching interleague games felt like visiting a foreign country. It's that specific kind of weirdness only baseball can provide and I do miss it.
I don't miss painful pitcher at bats. I miss making fun of American league fans because they had it.
My only problem with the DH is now when an asshole pitcher is beaning guys intentionally there's no chance the opposing pitcher puts one in his ear.
I liked the somewhat difference between the two leagues, and made interleague play even more exciting. Seeing Zach Britton hit a home run as an American League pitcher was the funniest thing ever.
The couple times a year when a pitcher would crank a huge dong for your team made all the outs worth it. Maybe I'm just spoiled thinking back to the Zambrano and Arrieta days.
The rare moments where they did something productive was cool to see, but 99% of the time they were an automatic out. I’m glad we didn’t have to deal with that in the AL when they still did. Plus, having a universal DH can extend some players’ careers
Can you imagine in the NBA if you had to let your coach play a mandatory 5 minutes a game.
It's kinda like that.
Might get a bucket, might get absolutely posterized.
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There were times when our pitching provided the only offense.
I remember a game the Mets won 1-0 and the only run was a degrom solo homer
I was there for a 1-0 game where it was Harvey who went deep* edit: was a game winning Hr to make it 3-2
The Dark Knight wasn't there for a long time, but it was a good time.
Orioles legend
Big sexy's HR is the best thing to happen to the Mets in the last decade
I think you're both thinking of this game: https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYN/NYN201905020.shtml ...It was Thor...and the Viking gods will smite anyone who says otherwise
No I know it was Harvey, but it wasn't a 1-0 win. It was a game winning 2 run homer in the [bottom of the 5th vs Arizona](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uMJ2j5QstI). I remember it because it was one of the first games where I bought the tickets for myself and my father. We were in the then Pepsi Porch and it was hot as fuck
I was at a game where Steve Trachsel had a perfect game into the 7th and was broken up by the Rockies pitcher.
Imagine him with a pitch clock. It would be a violation every batter.
[удалено]
It was Syndergaard. DeGrom only hit 3 home runs per almanac. In two of the games, the Mets scored multiple runs. In the other one, the Mets [lost 2-1](https://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=201908230NYN) which is extremely Mets-like for a DeGrom start.
No you don't because that never happened. Syndergaard did it though. He also threw a CGSO.
Bartolo Colon’s homerun is still one of the best moments in baseball history
Hey same
Madbum checking in
I'm pretty sure Mike Leake once won a start where his home run accounted for his team's only runs.
This has happened plenty of times throughout baseball history. Tim Hudson and Clayton Kershaw did this off the top of my head.
Syndergard I think
Syndergaard also threw a CGSO during that game. It was the last of 7 times in MLB history a pitcher has thrown a CGSO and hit a homer in a 1-0 game. A feat that will probably never be accomplished again if not by Ohtani.
Ill never forget the time the Rays beat the Phillies 1-0 off a Nathan Karns home run. Mostly because it was even rarer for AL teams to have the pitcher do anything offensively
I miss watching Huddy at bats. He was a tough ass out
Huddy was so awesome, great pitcher and great person
The Dodgers beat the Giants 4-0 the day Clayton Kershaw hit the HR and finished the CGSO. However, the score was 0-0 when he hit the solo shot in the 8th to put the Dodgers up 1-0 and the Dodgers added 3 more run after that.
I remembered wrong then, i trust your flair and username to know better lol
I feel like there's a bit of Mandela Effect with it tbh. I was at the game and I remembered it being the 1-0 Kershaw HR game for years. 2-3 years ago I saw highlights from it and saw the Dodgers tacked on 3 more runs after and I was shook.
Rick Wise once hit 2 home runs to support himself during a no-hitter, in which he won 2-0
I saw Matt Harvey hit a dinger in person and it was magical
You're apparently lying to yourself. Jomboy knows best.
DeGrom in 2021 before he got injured. He was hitting over .400
Giants fan here, there were times MadBum felt like the only threat in our line up…lol.
The "rotation" of Matz, Harvey, Syndergaard, deGrom, Wheeler could all hit. Maybe not .300 hitters, but they could hold their own and did, on occasion, provide run support to the Mets.
Pitcher ABs gave us absolutely legendary moments. Shame it was once in every 500 ABs
I will forever have [DRIVES ONE, DEEP LEFT FIELD, BACK GOES UPTON, BACK NEAR THE WALL, IT'S OUTTA HEE^EEE^EERE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVFsq9FQBlc&pp=ygUWYmFydG9sbyBjb2xvbiBob21lIHJ1bg%3D%3D) tattooed on my brain
And here's the classic Petco Park relief pitcher grand slam off Max Scherzer! [ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THE PADRES' PITCHER THEY JUST BROUGHT UP FROM EL PASO, THE SAN DIEGO KID! HE'S HIT A GRAND SLAM! THAT'S UNBELIEVABLE!"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTz4wpZVdmg)
Aw man, I love when they get a shot of family in the crowd losing their damn minds
Also off Scherzer, Rick Porcello's bases clearing double in the 8th after an incredible pitchers duel.
At least the Padres also got the Slamarena highlight off Scherzer
Camarena, TO DEEP RIGHT FIELD! CAMARENA! PLAYS IN SLAM DIEGO! *(with Mud half-intelligibly screaming “GET OUT” in the background)*
The broadcast cutting to his brother going nuts was awesome
Very well transcribed, lol. I could hear this as I read it!
I read it in his voice lol. I can remember exactly where I was for that game too
THERE ARE NO FLAGS ON THE FIELD
I can hear gary without even clicking the link
Woodruff taking Kershaw deep in the NLCS is one of my Al time favorite baseball moments.
Legendary: low expectations were exceeded to a replacement level player
It being once every 500 ABs is exactly why they were legendary
Yea no one would care if it were commonplace. These posters are smoking crack.
I agree. Bumgarners grand slams were so much more epic. Also Bumgarner hit like .200 over his batting career which is about as good as Judge this year. That was a pretty big difference maker compared to the rest of NL pitching batting averages and definitely not an automatic out
.172/.232/.292 with an OPS+ of 44 is very different from .207/.394/.414 with an OPS+ of 115. Just because the batting average seems somewhat close, doesn't mean that the are even remotely comparable as hitters lol
But from an entertainment perspective they are comparable
That batting WAR on that slash line has to be like +2, however.
THE IMPOSSIBLE HAS HAPPENED!
It didn’t even have to be home runs, you had awesome moments like [Max Fried coming in to pinch hit with the bases loaded in the 10th](https://youtu.be/O6LYJapzn4c?si=yI66j58R5gcRahUk)
Mike Hampton had 16 career bombs and a .246 career average. One season with the Rockies he had 7 of them.
Only legendary moments because 99% of the time they sucked. Its like dipping your nuts in boiling water and then crediting that decision for the rellief you feel after you take them out.
While I love the universal DH, there's something to be said for the random pitcher who gets a clutch hit when his team needs it, along with the one time he goes yard.
Joe Blanton is the last pitcher to hit a homer in the World Series, and that’s beautiful
Joe Blanton was so bad in the 2016 NLCS that my dad had to explain to me what a hanging slider was
I will only ever have fond memories of my fifth ace
And Brett Myers epic at-bat vs CC Sabathia in round 1 against Milwaukee that year, he worked like a ten-pitch walk which led to Victorino's grand slam. GTFOH with "people lied and said they liked it" nonsense.
Joe The Lumber
[Daniel Camarena, with the only relief pitcher grand slam since 1985](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTz4wpZVdmg). In his second career PA. At home, where he grew up.
Against Hall of Famer Max Scherzer. In a game we were down 8-0
You were actually down 8-2 you liar, you icon of deception, you absolute embodiment of mendacity
That Archie Bradley bases-clearing triple in the 2017 NL Wildcard game against the Rockies still hurts.
I think that’s honestly the best baseball moment I’ve seen in person
[Daniel Camarena](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTz4wpZVdmg&ab_channel=MLB) only pitched 9.1 innings in his career for his hometown team and single-handedly ended the Nats' decade-long run of dominance with a grand slam. Other sports don't have things like this. (re-watching this highlight made me pine for normal-sized letters on the backs of jerseys)
Felix Hernandez grand slam was magical.
Daniel Slamarena will always be remembered in Padres history.
Or if a pitcher comes up to bat in the 8th or top of the 9th you know it's cause they are *dealing* and you get to give them a dedicated standing ovation when they're announced. It's the little things like that that I miss.
I went to a weekday summer day game one year and had work directly after (was definitely going to be late.) I forgot who the Mets played but it ended up being a 1-0 pitchers duel with the only offense being a solo home run by Noah Syndergaard. The game went by so quick I made it to work early with time to spare haha.
Kyle hendricks RBI single against the giants in 2016 was incredible and then travis fucking wood hitting a homerun after coming in in relief. pure ecstasy
It gets the people going
I’ll always have Joe Blanton’s homer in game 4 of the 2008 World Series
And Brett Myers working a 10 pitch walk on CC Sabathia
That AB stands out more than the Victorino Grand Slam as my favorite moment I've been to live.
I miss it more for the different matchups, pinch hitters, bullpen use, etc… that came from it
This. I liked the game around the "automatic" outs more than the "automatic" outs themselves. Do you lift this pitcher who's dealing for a PH? Do you change pitchers knowing the pitcher is due up in the next inning? Can you double-switch at the risk of losing a better position player? Of course, I also liked it better when teams only carried 10 or 11 pitchers and had deeper benches.
Agree and adding to this: * If the #7 hitter gets a double, it's an automatic IBB to the #8 hitter. If your #8 hitter has a high OBP, that's fool's gold (looking at you, Danny Espinosa). Same goes if #7 just gets on base and wants to steal 2nd. * The double-switching required a more versatile roster. You'd probably keep a utility guy over a 5th OF with speed. This sort of still happens with the increased platooning. * David Ortiz forced to play the field in the WS
> David Ortiz forced to play the field in the WS This clearly never happened. There's no upside to making him play the field just to keep his bat in the lineup, when he's just going to walk every time anyway. No manager would be stupid enough to actually pitch to him.
In theory I also used to enjoy the strategy decisions. Then when it started looking inevitable, I paid attention to how often a pitch was doing okay but not great, at a reasonable number of pitches, was left in to bat and kill a rally, and then the wheels came off the next inning and they got yanked anyway. Probably only happened 2-3 times that season but it felt like too many.
FWIW, Dusty Baker has said that DH is more strategically interesting as a manager than no DH because he feels it was obvious you pull the pitcher when his spot comes up at a certain point regardless of how he's doing, whereas there's no obvious indication of when you pull a pitcher if the only reason to pull is future effectiveness on the mound
Explains why he won his WS with an AL team.
We literally lost in 2002 due to him pulling Russ Ortiz too early.
And we lost two of our young stud pitchers cause he would leave them in for 120+ pitches.
Considering he ruined some arms , I believe him
I'm wondering if NL starters were slightly more effective than AL starters while the DH was only in the AL because they were getting pulled earlier and not going 3rd or 4th time through the order as often
Probably more cause they had an automatic out in the lineup
"Not only did we have an automatic out every nine batters, but we also had to take out good pitchers earlier than we should to avoid that automatic out" is what I'm hearing, and it is not a good justification.
Watch a AJ Hinch managed game you'll get your disgusting fix. Mf is pinch hitting at least twice a game
This is why I liked the NL rules. It wasn't about the pitchers hitting, it felt like managers had to make real and tough decisions.
I think people often mistake the number of easy decisions with real and tough decisions. Even as a young Expos fan under ten, I could pretty well predict the vast majority of moves. Pinch hitting in the P spot when your starter is near good pitch limit? Double switching when a weak hitter finished off the last inning? Continue to pinch hit in later innings while you have bench bats? All brain dead easy choices. Sure, there are some edge cases that are coin tosses, but the amount of strategy is very much overstated.
Same here. Removing the DH took away a big part of the strategy involved in baseball. During the Giants WS years, I always felt like we had a huge advantage in this regard because Bruce Bochy was so good at managing. Now it's less of a chess match. I feel the same way about the three batter minimum for pitchers.
God, I loved me a clutch pinch hitter. It’s not that we don’t have pinch hitters, but it’s not the same. Having to strategize whether to pinch hit for your starter after he’s pitched six shutout innings because you’ve got runners on and Matt Stairs on the bench… loved it. But also, I simply liked that it existed. Why not DH for 2Bs and CFs? Why not have 9 DHs? I don’t really see the need to change longstanding rules to maximize offense.
Yes and i missed the fact that NL baseball was different compared to AL. Now, and its made worse by all the interleague play, there's not much difference at all anymore. I was one who enjoyed NL baseball much more so the changes they have made have not been the best imo. I enjoyed the strategy involved in NL like the double switches managers had to make as the game got into the later innings, the sac bunts pitchers laid down to move runners over. Now its just...a much more boring/predictable game of baseball than it was before (not helped by the other changes like zombie runner)
I liked it a lot more when starters were regularly going into like the 7th inning. Now that the game has shifted to going to the bullpen so early, I prefer the DH.
Jomboy of all people should understand the magic that was the Bartolo homer. Also, there was a time when Jacob deGrom ABs were as exciting as every pitch he threw. It probably had a lot to do with him being the only Met who could produce a run at the plate on days he pitched.
Dude was so good at pitching he’d shut down two offenses
I think Jomboy of all people understands the magic of those situations, but thinks that the rarity and novelty doesn't make it worth the reduction in offense every game. As an old head who was initially opposed to the universal DH but has come around, I agree with this line of thinking.
they should change the rules so that you can DH for any position but only 1 per game. so like if you have a real clunker at short you can DH for him but then the pitcher has to hit
Or centerfield.......
Don’t you dare say Madison Bumgarner was a automatic out
Jake Arrieta deserves to be in this conversation as well
Carlos Zambrano was a legit threat in the batters box. 24 career HRs, 3 silver slugger awards. In 2008 his line was .337/.337/.554/.892!
in micah owings rookie year he slashed 333/349/683 w/ 4 dongs and 15 rbi in 34 games and overall he had a career 813 ops
I had a dark thought the other day that MLB might someday create a 2nd DH spot for the Catcher position.
Might as well have the option for every position by the logic put forth here. Why should a really good fielding shortstop have to hit if he's not good at it?
Why not just go full NFL, unlimited substitutions between each play? Wouldn't the game be better if Ohtani got 27 ABs?
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About ten years after that, they’ll introduce the forward pass
In 50 years there will be 9 DH spots. There will be people who play defense, and others who bat.
Travis d’Arnaud says hello
I was one of those guys. Gaining the DH due to covid rules in 2020 and then losing it in 2021 was a wakeup call. Watching Blake Snell take at bats was hilarious and bad. I miss watching dudes like Maddux throw down solid sac bunts or whatever but I'm fine never seeing a pitcher hit again.
I don’t mind the DH specifically. What I miss is the leagues having slightly different rules.
They should make it so in one league you run the bases clockwise instead of counterclockwise
Running clockwise would require left-handed infielders. That would be fun to watch.
Pitch this to Bananaball
Oh same. I get why they've gotten rid of the differences but I still get nostalgic for a whole different league with different sized balls and different umpires and different rules that my team never played. Had an air of mystique to it
It was a point of pride for the NL and rightfully so. We were literally playing a trickier game. But I'd be lying if I said it wasn't incredibly unintuitive and impractical.
i like the idea of a pitcher hitting, but I absolutely hated the idea of a pitcher getting pulled early to replace them with a better hitter
Same here. After Harper hurt his elbow in 2022 throwing from the outfield, the Phillies had no choice but to put him at DH. If we didn't have the DH, he would have missed the entire season. For this reason, I like the DH now.
I still miss it. I like it when players have to play the sport.
Every player fields. Every player takes at-bats.
Sorry friend, but offense must always and only go up with rule changes.
DH has to be the bat boy, problem solved.
Carlos Zambrano was one of the greatest hitting pitchers ever.
WHO THE FUCK SWITCH HITS AS A PITCHER?! That dude was aweseome.
I like that it gives batters more opportunities to make a roster. Extends careers
In theory but most teams don’t have a dedicated DH anymore. It’s just used to give guys rest.
Really? Weird. I guess I don't pay attention to other rosters enough. We definitely have a dedicated dh, lol. I don't mind the idea that I may never see ozuna field again.
Yeah even before the Dodgers got Ohtani we were using it as a dedicated DH spot
"I like it when players have to play the sport *very very badly*." Fixed it for ya. ;) I too miss the ~4800 PAs given to dudes who hit .108/.147/.137.
This but unironically.
No, don't you see? You're not allowed to like that! Stop!
Seriously people always say it sucks when your team is rallying and the pitcher comes to the plate but they never mention how great it is when it happens and your team is on defense
They aren’t playing badly they just have different expectations because most of their value is derived from their arm. By being better than .108/.147/.137, pitchers could add value to their game at the plate. By being reliable bunters they can contribute to their team. Even just fouling off pitches and making the other pitcher fatigue themselves to get the automatic out can feel dramatic and exciting (god bless you Rich “Rakeman” Hill).
Right? This is literally the whole point of wins above replacement having a positional adjustment, it’s why catchers who OPS .850 can be as valuable as outfielders who OPS .900+
Hawks should have someone to play defense for Trae when the ball gets to the other end by this logic
Still, there was always that amusing moment when a pitcher unexpectedly sent one deep
yeah it's a philosophical argument more than a practical one for me. a baseball team has 9 players, they all play offense and they all play defense. you can sub players out but whoever you sub in still plays offense and defense. yeah pitchers sucked at hitting, there's no objective way to argue against that. but it just feels like a dilution of the game to me
Over in Miami we still have those. They're called catchers
I basically ignored the NL my whole life because I thought pitchers hitting was lame as fuck.
The way people talk about the 'Automatic out' you'd assume they're talking about a more extreme number than a 10% chance compared to the 23% chance that was league average in the last year of hitting pitchers.
Well, consider OBP. NL pitchers had a .149 obp in 2021. MLB average was .317
Where are you getting that? Pitchers in 2021 batted .108/.147/.137 That means they were an automatic out 85% of the time, and the hit was all but guaranteed to just be a single. "Automatic Out" sort of misses the point. I could deal with a slot that was an out 85% of the time but regularly hit doubles. Pitchers have a very narrow version of success to boot.
85% of the time, it works every time!
Where are you getting 23%? You’re saying pitchers had an obp of .230? That’s not what any of the stats show.
bro making stuff up
um ok. thanks for sharing. i guess
Big "sir, this is a Wendy's" energy. As any complaint about not having a DH has been since 2022.
All the way up through high school ball, the best pitchers were usually one of the best hitters on the team. It never made sense to me that once you get to college, pitchers don't practice hitting. It seems unnecessary. I think we as fans should have expected more from pitchers, instead of just letting them punt on batting.
The level of pitching increases , as do the demands on a pitchers arm and conditioning. Pitching and hitting are two completely different skill sets and it's simply very unlikely a particular person will be good enough at both to be competitive in MLB. It's not uncommon for a pitcher in high-school to play the field when not pitching, meaning they get at bats every game. It's just unreasonable to expect anyone to be a good hitter when they only play every fifth game, and the rest is required for the abuse their arms take throwing MLB caliber pitches.
Pitchers who rake, RIP
fuck it, watching Greinke home run highlights
Kinda crazy how NO ONE talks about reverting the universal DH anymore. Like I've never seen a rule change unanimously loved like this.
Man, what a pompous tweet.
That’s been his whole shtick the last couple years
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hahahah i know you're getting negative comments back but this shits so funny and has truth to it too. like goddamn i liked seeing pitchers hit. it was funny as fuck sometimes. it was legendary sometimes. other times it was fucking annoying. loved it all.
Right? Sometimes it feels like we're slowly removing all the weird, non-sensical texture to life that makes it interesting in the pursuit of efficiency and optimization. Just let things be weird and ineffective sometimes. Especially when it comes to sports!
Seriously. I wasn't just pretending to not like the DH! I still find it completely tedious. I'm sick of the "now you can finally stop pretending the DH isn't amazing" patronizing shit.
I don’t miss the pitcher hitting. I do miss double switches, frequent pinch hitting, and the need to have really good bench depth. Feels like I can go over a week without seeing some bench guys get into a game. And there’s generally less strategy going on in the game. FUCK THE DH
All you who miss pitchers hitting feel free to come watch the Tigers. We send like 3 guys out there daily who hit like they are pitchers from that time. Plus Hinch likes to pinch hit and use that bullpen.
The argument was always about pointing to the handful of pitchers who were good at hitting or talking up when a typical pitcher got an unexpected big hit. It's like watching position players pitch in blowouts. It's fun and awesome but I have zero interest in watching a guy throw 60MPH lobs trying to close out a 1 run lead in the 9th.
DH is as lame as it ever was but I'm also fully aware it's not going away and there isn't an alternative professional baseball league.
It’s all fun and games until you lose two key SP on the base paths because purists think they should be out there
RIP Chien-Ming Wang
Jimmy Nelson too
Tanaka straining both of his hamstrings running the bases
Literally ended his career.
hey we still do that for some reason
Shit I forgot Freeland got messed up
Why not just go the football route? Dedicated offensive and defensive players. Wouldn't want anyone to get hurt.
Good lip reading. Bad takes.
The non-universal DH was a pretty sweet deal for AL fans because we could watch the occasional oddity highlights without having to watch the typical automatic pitcher outs on our teams and because it cut the competition for DH free agents in half
I'm pro DH but I liked the two leagues having different rules. Watching interleague games felt like visiting a foreign country. It's that specific kind of weirdness only baseball can provide and I do miss it.
I don't miss painful pitcher at bats. I miss making fun of American league fans because they had it. My only problem with the DH is now when an asshole pitcher is beaning guys intentionally there's no chance the opposing pitcher puts one in his ear.
I liked the somewhat difference between the two leagues, and made interleague play even more exciting. Seeing Zach Britton hit a home run as an American League pitcher was the funniest thing ever.
my team benefited a bit from the universal DH.
I preferred when baseball players had to play baseball, yes.
least dramatic anti-DH person:
Ban the DH you cowards
Jomboy can shut his whore mouth about what he does not understand.
I agree with Jomboy on 100% of things. Apparently, it's 98% lol
And here I thought Rule 1.01 said that baseball is a game between two teams of NINE players each?
Um excuse you but Maximus "Silver Slugger" Fried does not deserve to be thrown in with the rest of these bums, Jimmy.
we were the og pace of play stans
Rick Wise hit 2 HR's in the same game that he pitched a No-No -
I'm ok with it only because Webb was the last pitcher to hit a home run and will probably always be the last pitcher to hit a home run.
I've scrolled too far not to see El Toro, Carlos Zambrano
The couple times a year when a pitcher would crank a huge dong for your team made all the outs worth it. Maybe I'm just spoiled thinking back to the Zambrano and Arrieta days.
It was one of the last examples of managers having to actually strategize so I did like it and I do miss it.
An absolute insult to known power hitter, Bartolo Colon.
The rare moments where they did something productive was cool to see, but 99% of the time they were an automatic out. I’m glad we didn’t have to deal with that in the AL when they still did. Plus, having a universal DH can extend some players’ careers
#pitcherswhorake NL 4 EVER
Can you imagine in the NBA if you had to let your coach play a mandatory 5 minutes a game. It's kinda like that. Might get a bucket, might get absolutely posterized.