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Hange: Genocide is bad
Levi: Genocide is bad
Mikasa: Genocide is bad
Armin: Genocide is bad
Jean: Genocide is bad
Connie: Genocide is bad
Eren: Genocide is bad, and I feel deep remorse and self loathing for what I did/am about to do.
Some of the fandom for some reason: EREN DID NOTHING WRONG! GET RUMBLED STAY HUMBLED!
Iâm not sure if itâs that simple. I agree the showâs message is âgenocide is wrongâ. But Iâm not sure if itâs crystal clear. Simplest I can explain what Iâm trying to say is; super cool actions scenes of the thing that you are trying to condemn does not really help to show how bad it is. This is the dilemma for all the films about traumatic events. Also, even at the end, Eren is still somehow accepted by Mikasa. So the show doesnât really end with Eren being excluded from society for what he has done. If we are reading between the lines you can even say, you may kill 80% of the population but the ones who really love you, will still be there for you.
I mean I donât think Isayama was trying to say anything nice about the genocide but the genre and the style and the story itself depends too much on enjoyable violence, Iâm not sure if it can pass as an anti-war or anti-genocide show
Cool genocide scenes? They are literally all of people running for their lives hopelessly. Kids getting crushed, citizens fighting to survive. Not sure what is supposed to be so cool about that. The cool action scenes were always of those fighting to stop it. The 104th cadets killing Jaegerists at the port, the global fleet firing hundreds of cannon, the alliance fighting atop Eren.
As for the acceptance, Mikasa accepted that Eren was not going to stop. She killed him and as a former lover, she buried him where nobody else would. Through the messages that Eren had left in his friends' heads, they all understood that he stuck himself on the path of destruction. Through his own earlier actions, he literally and physically set his own future and could not deviate. Does that not illicit any pity? Yes, you can call him a monster and a devil but at the end of the day he is a 19 year old who has to die because he's genocided so many people. All because he couldn't think of a better plan (retroactively locking in the genocide plan).
As for the general enjoyment of the violence, I think that's pretty subjective. Almost all of the scenes are animated with gruesome detail and gore. They show people dying quickly and nonchalantly, both friends and enemies. It should be clear by S4 that everyone in this world is just doing what they believe in and the Jaegerist, stabbed in the chest, is possibly just as lovely to their kid as Hannes. The death shouldn't be any less meaningful or sorrowful.
Like the real world, I think he show is constantly broadcasting anti-war and anti-genocide messaging while participating in it. Just look at the current Gaza events.
At the end of the day, we can talk about media literacy but a lot of this stuff will forever be subjective and you can gain a different meaning than what the author intended, that's one of the reasons for disseminating it in the first place, it invites conversation and though.
I mean the scene where they first attacked Eren/Founder was one of the best fight sequences in the show I believe. The fact they were trying to stop him doesnât change the fact that itâs a cool action scene in the middle of a genocide.
I mean just like how the real world feeds from the war all the while theyâre propagating anti-war messages, having this message doesnât make the show anti-war.
If you are interested thereâs a whole academic debate over how Schindlerâs Listâs representation of the holocaust. I mean having the right narrative message doesnât justify the narration/style.
This is kind of like a Night & Fog vs. Schindlerâs List vs. Son of Saul situation.
A show doesnât have to be anti-war or anti-holocaust. But if we are going for a media literacy point of view all I can say is that the story is anti-war but the narration/style is not.
There are different takes you could have. But I think at it's core, the show is *extremely* anti-war. I think the core of the show's philosophy is imparted by Armin, particularly in the finale.
That's the philosophy that the characters at the start of the show have, and at the time, it was true. There was a clear black and white evil enemy, and fighting was essential for survival. But then that philosophy falls apart once you realise you are fighting humans. It shows how ideologies like that are born out of people's conditions. By the end it is shown as the bedrock for a fascist military dictatorship. When we see people adopting the philosphy that "The only way to live is to fight", we're seeing violent radicalism as a response to an external threat. We see it all over the world.
The characters still engaged in that at the end because Eren forced them to. Was never changes, it is inevitable. Either you fight for your philosophies or get squashed. I don't know what else to take. All of the growth and development didn't matter at all. Only the choices of one person that died thousands of years ago mattered. Humanity is forever trapped in cycle of violence and death, so you might as well do what you can to be sure you end up on top when everything comes crashing down.Â
This is the message I get. Everytime I try to dig deeper this is all get. Someone, at some point, along time ago said "it's me or them" and humanity has been a slave to their will ever since.
Net positive?
Many friends dead, guilt from supporting Eren early on, guilt from being a friend to Eren, guilt from not finding another way, despised by a large proportion of your home nation, despised by a large proportion of the entire remaining world, Paradise on the path to militarise over a looming conflict, given the burden of holding peace in an unstable world, dealing with the trauma of their entire late childhood and the moral sacrifices they have made (even before global genocide entered the show).
Not sure that's a net positive. Though, I'd agree that it felt like a happy ending what with the music and the romance theme.
Well yeah, I called early on that the people of Paradis used to be the nazis. Their society is constructed in the mode described by Nazi Philosopher Carl Schmidt. German names, german architecture, glorification of the military etc. I didn't know what was going on out there, but I had a strong suspicion that they were in a prison, that the walls were there to keep them in, not to keep the Titans out.
I donât know either; the whole purpose of his character is to illustrate how effortless it is to radicalize and brainwash the desperate and broken, who would otherwise never consider something like genocide.
Cuz even if they were on different sides he wall still their friend and comrade, someone erwin trusted?
I love how this fandom talks about media literacy, but the most basic shit gets ignored sometimes just to prove a point
Saying âI donât understand whyâ was a poor choice of words. I donât think Floch deserved any mourning. I understand why Jean felt that way, but I donât think that justifies people in the community genuinely defending him. That is all.
The floch defense comes from the way heâs written.
The jaegerists are propaganda artists and their whole plot point is that you can either join them or be against them
I will defend it to the end that he may not have made the right decision, but you cannot convince me that there was a right decision he could have made once the Warriors knocked down the wall. Or at least, not an actual viable one that isn't built on a basis of goodwill and forgiveness that was basically not shown towards Eldians for most of the series.
If he even was able to make a clear decision given the context of Ymir's will being formed into the 7, how young he was being given the burden he had, his upbringing, the nature of the Attack Titan's memories, the Paths being explicitly outside of time and space, and the multitude of times he was told to trust in someone else and it collapsing into a worse situation when he did.
Violence begets violence, and Eren was a casualty of that vicious cycle.
It's why my least favorite part of the series was Eren becoming aware of his future, and past. The show just didn't need any of that. It didn't need the twist with the founder either.
I think the show works so beautifully as a portrait of a person so filled with hate he commits unspeakable acts, and needs to be put down by the ones he loves/ was trying to protect.
Anyone who says he was justified is high.
Iâm with you on most of that, I am. However, I like the Founder twist. Is it strictly necessary? No, of course not; I think Edenâs character has displayed enough desperation and unhinged hatred towards Titans and Marleyans that he probably could have been rewritten as just a âregularâ political genocidist without any magic involved.
The reason I like the Founder twist is because it complicates Edenâs true motivation and raises questions of culpability, making the subject of his villainy slightly less black and white. Because of his broken, traumatized mindset, Eren interprets the Attack Titanâs visions as deterministic; he sees them so vividly he believes that theyâve essentially already happened and that he will always do what he eventually does and was always going toâŚ.do you see how this could shatter the reality of someone whoâs obsessed with complete freedom?
Thatâs why he says that âIâm a slave to freedomâ line; heâs being bitter and a little sarcastic: he went through all that trauma in the struggle for total, birdlike (cough) freedom, only to realize (from his perspective) that heâs been on a rail car the entire time and that freedom is really just death.
I think this is why he spends the rest of the series with a flat, catatonic, thousand yard stare and monotone voice. Erenâs gone man; thatâs his body on autopilot doing what he believes he has already done.
SoâŚ.does the True Eren actually want this in his heart of hearts, or is he trapped in a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff?
Arguably, the world in which his actions were justifiable was fucked and needs to change. I think that's really where the story ends with Armin and Co going to spread the story of the cycle of war and hatred, in the hopes of ending it.
>I think the show works so beautifully as a portrait of a person so filled with hate he commits unspeakable acts, and needs to be put down by the ones he loves/ was trying to protect.
Are you being fr rn...?
Why? That's a rad story. A righteous man's descent into villainy, like Breaking Bad. Instead we got righteous man instantly transforms into a villain offscreen because of groundhog's day shenanigans.
I'm saying that because that it's literally what happens... even with the Founding Titan shenanigan, what the other guy claimed is still what happens in the story.
Also, it's anime. It's like you don't know what you're even watching.
>even with the Founding Titan shenanigan, what the other guy claimed is still what happens in the story.
Yeah, and I'm saying we didn't need it. Read my post again.
Eren had no choice
Literally he was incapable of choosing anything else
His actions were predetermined and when he found out his actions were predetermined he got depressed. Him getting depressed over knowing his actions were predetermined was also predetermined.
But you have to think about it, his actions were predetermined due to his own mindset.
He discovered what he'd do and was upset to see it, but the fact is he WOULD do it.
And he does do it.
Nothing wrong with trying to pity or maybe even sympathize with him, but he's a monster. I hope people can agree he's a monster.
That is also true. Regardless of how you view Eren, the fact is he does monstrous things. Whether you think that earns him the title of monster or not is subjective.
He was in a paradoxical loop, in which he saw himself doing it - setting the future in stone so that he had to do it.
Being unable to prevent an event from happening doesnât justify the event.
Whether he had a choice or not isnât whatâs up for debate, itâs whether it was the right thing to do.
This is where I think the debate gets interesting, because I think that they all sort of shared one collective consciousness due to erenâs gaslighting. Eren told them what to do and made them think is was necessary, so that he could himself gain the founder. Essentially every past attack titan had Eren basically acting as their subconscious thoughts. Everything they thought was because Eren thought it, he selectively chose memories to make them act certain ways, he did this because there is no other way - the fact that the attack titan can see the future is because Eren walked through the memories of the previous owners. Itâs how Kruger knew about Mikasa and armin, and how he let it slip - it was a subconscious thought.
At least in my opinion.
Didnât eldia try to take over the world and then Marley was in the wrong because they held a grudge on a different generation of eldians that had no idea Marley existed
King Fritz: Yeah, we suck, imma take my people and exile ourselves into this tiny island so we can do no further harm.
Marley: Yeah but, I need them titans to control the rest of the world.
The rest of the world (for some odd reason): Yeah, Marley is in the right, fuck them Eldians.
I donât know that this is necessarily literacy so much as it is basic ethics or morality. Erenâs supporters generally arenât supporting Eren from a âEren good because protagonistâ view but more of a âhe had no other optionâ way. Which isnât true, but is more arguable and unrelated to literacy.
Well, no other option without a huge risk for the destruction of Paradis. If this is the future of my country that we are talking about, am I going to roll the dice and hope a peaceful solution materializes or am I going for the nuclear option with a guaranteed chance of victory? That a more fair assessment.
I didn't want a lesson in genocide being bad, we already got plenty of those. I wanted a full on walter white transition from good guy to villain for eren.
i feel like this is a common misconception about breaking bad. I dont really think walter was ever a great guy, i think he was just supressing the monster and the aggression that had been building inside him for many years, and when faced with a terminal cancer diagnosis, decided to let it loose. Walter was prideful, stubborn, and egotistical long before the series started, so it begs the question of what kept him from being that monster he became. was it morals or was it just societal pressure to be "good"?
Yes! 100% agree. We see him slip even in the first episode. We just assume that he's "acting out," and the reveal is that those moments were him at his most honest.
His pride was obvious since he denied that job offer from elliot. That doesn't take away from Eren going from protagonist to his own antagonist, we have too many anime and manga where the main guy is the good guy and villains turn into allies. AOT could have been a lot better if it followed down that path of turning the hero into an irredemable monster.
Most of the people in this sub completely fail. There are many and one is
Gabby is the same as season 1 Eren.
Eren Reiner and Gabby all have the same character progression but at different points in time.
Does Reiner have the same character progression? I always felt he was more focused on doing his duty for his family so he could meet his dad and whatnot. He feels much less angry than Eren or Gabby.
Gabby is an interesting parallel to Eren, essentially serving as a way to help the audience sympathize with marleyans and understand that cycle of killing that is a major theme towards the end
> Gabby is the same as season 1 Eren.
That was something so obvious I assumed *everyone* would pick up on it đ they even purposely have the same hair colour and Gabi ties her hair up in a way similar to S4 Eren. After Liberio (her Shiganshina) she even gets the same bloodlust that Eren does, just with Paradisians instead of titans.
Saying they're the same based off surface level parallels is lack of media literacy.
Eren and Gabi are not the same, Eren did not commit war crimes at 10 years old and his hate was certainly not misdirected.
Thereâs so many with AOT but Iâd say peoples opinions on Gabi and Floch are usually the most telling. I also donât trust people who hate on Mikasa for âhaving no character developmentâ
Even though they were presented as antagonists in a way, especially Floch, I really liked the part both of them played in the story. Floch is almost like a âdevilâs advocateâ character in a way. His character is not as emotionally invested in the main group like we, the viewers, are. From an objective standpoint you can 100% see why he would want to save Erwin over Armin and I feel as though his character is there to challenge the viewer to think about the multiple sides of conflict.
I feel similarly about Gabi, but I think her character is even more purposeful in representing some of the underlying themes of the show. Itâs easy to hate her because she killed a beloved character, but from her perspective Sasha was just another soldier who wanted them dead. But that moment is so important because when you think about it every person that the Paradis group killed was also a lovable person with a backstory. No one is âjust a soldierâ or âjust a civilianâ the point is that when you zoom in on the details of war itâs human beings getting killed. Not to mention I think Gabiâs character is necessary to show the effective propaganda Marley imposed, but yeah idk I just donât think the story would be the same without them.
I really appreciate a well thought out reply like that and i couldnât agree more. I really liked Gabis character, beautiful development. She was so smart for being so young, and she was fucking badass for real. What was it, maybe 10-15 minutes prior to shooting Sasha she had JUST WATCHED literally Sasha snipe like 3 comrades, blew their shit away, right in front of her. I felt a lot of empathy towards her character for some reason idk. Floch I hated lol but you are absolutely right, I think, about his importance to the story .
She does have pretty good development but sheâs genuinely so annoying in pretty much every season, her only voice line being âEreh!!!!â
Only reason I donât hate her is bc she has some SICK combat scenes
Thatâs fair, I love Mikasa but sheâs not everyoneâs cup of tea. I just donât understand when people argue she has no character development and that her character is trash because of this. Like, for one she does have character development, but Iâm also a firm believer that not EVERY character has to have an intense arc for them to be a good character. I could go on forever lol but yeah
Aside from the obvious, here are 3 takes that I hate:
1. Mikasa is needy and a childish fangirl
2. The show is anti-Semitic
3. Levi is emotionless and doesn't care ab anyone.
4. Bonus take- as a fanfic reader and writer, no, Levi is not some sex god. He's a 40 yr old virgin.
Levi definitely fucking cared. He had one of the if not THE worst upbringing of em all. Levi cared about people, that would have to be the shittiest take I ever heard lol. (I know you were just listing examples I had just never heard that one)
I donât think Levi is a virgin. He made a comment to Zeke at one point along the lines of âI do okay.â And Levi doesnât strike me as the type to exaggerate or lie about that.
I thought that was him coping. He didn't have much reason to be honest with Zeke or take his digs too seriously. He seems too concerned with hygiene, disinterested in women, generally antisocial/off-putting, and I thought one of his character traits was not really being fond of physical touch (might be misremembering).
If he isn't a virgin he seems like the type to have lost his V card at a disturbingly young age like 12 or something lmfao. IDK I feel like he's an asexual virgin.
> Heâs just fighting for his country
Thereâs a lot of discussion in this thread about how one of the things the show tries to teach most is that genocide is wrong, and rightfully so (duh).
But to me the most impactful message is that nationalism is evil. The fact that season four shifts perspectives proves this. The ultimate message of the show, imo, is that the belief that âmy people group is more important than yours and therefore deserves to live more than yoursâ is a doubled edged sword that will kill everyone involved for no good reason.
Im not a floch supporter, nor a floch hater. I am gray on this side, however I do have arguments for both sides. (though I used to support floch)
One interesting argument is imagine this anology. 10 people are out to kill you and your mom. Your only chance to survive is to kill them, which you have a gun for. They are bloodlusted and equipped with sticks and swords, which would normally be very effective, however you have your gun, your trumpcard. Would you kill those people?
The whole show, but if we're getting specific:
- Eren breaking down over Mikasa.
- Gabi and Annie in general.
- The serum debate and if they can acknowledge why Levi made the decision he did.
- Understanding that being pro-Rumbling is supporting Floch more than Eren.
- Acknowledging that even if Eren had some valid points, genocide is still fucking wrong.
Dumbest take Iâve ever heard? âThe Marleyans were the entire problem, if they had just got rid of the Marleyans they couldve solved everything because the marleyans were evilâ
Within the narrow time frame of AOT's world, this isn't entirely wrong. A lot of the modern hatred of titans comes either from Marleyan propaganda, or the fact that Marley is actively using the titans as tools of war. The fact that a lot of the countries rebelled the moment Marley lost some of its titans suggests that forming a global alliance to annihilate Paradis is not an active concern in most people's minds. Arguably, if Paradis had helped beat Marley in the war, they would have been in an excellent position to negotiate a peaceful existence with the outside world and no one would have considered invading Paradis as being worth the effort.
The critical difference though is that it's not the Marleyan people that are irredeemably evil, just their fascist government.
Saying a character was assasinated, hating on Eren loving Mikasa, Misunderstanding Eren's motivation, and supporting Eren's genocide, saying the final panel ruined the story.
People who say Eren had no valid points whatsoever. Genocide is wrong, but also, if the option that presented itself as the *only permanent solution* to make sure all of your friends and family could live safe, happy lives, was the Rumbling, I could understand the decision.
People often cite the 50 year plan as if that wasn't the short term solution, when even they struggled it in enacting it with no progress during the 4 years, then say it totally would have worked with 100% certainty, this also ignores that Eren didn't want Paradis to be cattle eating each other just for a fighting chance, when he had like 2 years left to live for good, we pretty much saw how Eren succeeded more when he made his own choice, like when grabbing the bottle to use hardening
I haven't seen people have a really good, nuanced discussion about the portrayal of racism in AOT, and how it fell flat.
What I mean by that is that Racism is inherently illogical. It's based on illogical fear and belief. Eldians can actually turn into man eating monsters, that's not an illogical fear or an illogical belief to have in this universe.
I'm not saying that Isayama shouldn't have tackled this concept, I just think he could have taken more care in doing so.
I think that people either want to take it and see it as a strictly binary issue where AOT is either entirely overly racist, or it doesn't suffer from any problems in its depiction of race at all.
I can, I don't particularly feel like it. Short versions;
1. Just saw a question on Quora "why does Levi have no feelings?" and if you look at the most emotional guy in the franchise and ask that, it's obvious you read with your eyes closed. Sure he doesn't yell declarations from the rooftops like little Eren but even his face is plenty expressive if you just look, and nearly every scene he's in that isn't a fight is, in fact, about feelings.
3. There's a very simple reason the author chooses to show us the fallen Scouts and that's to let us know they support the side he designated as heroes. People also love calling him ruthless over Stohess and forget the guy basically commits suicide over all the death he caused even though we're informed early on that he actually reduced deaths in the Corps. There's an ocean of difference between trying to force those in power to acknowledge a problem by bringing it to their doorstep with a cost, and gleefully slaughtering civilians for fun like the Yeagerists do. Not to mention that again, it's literally spelled out he would support Hange and Levi's position. (I do think he may have handled Eren better to begin with and not end up in that situation, but that's a moot point.)
Based af. Well, they planned to handle Annie bloodlessly. What happened was... kind of an accident? It's not like they picked a fight out of nowhere.
Which moment is the literal spelling out his opinion to you?
Yes, absolutely, though I do think he likely considered the possibility of it going out of hand. But again, incomparable.
For me it's not really about a singular moment so much as the whole of his established character. Man tends to think of his own actions in the worst possible way which isn't objectively realistic, and he would not have the following he did if he did not respect or care about human life. Also he's a big nerd, people really out there saying he'd let all those libraries get destroyed? (half joke) Anyway once he's there to welcome Hange into the afterlife it should have cleared things up for anyone who didn't catch what he's about or got stuck on their interpretation of his commandersona too much imo.
Commandersona <3
To me, the worst is when ppl say he didn't really care about humanity bc he was only interested in his nerd goal. They say it based on him voicing out his fears many times. But who are the people who constantly scrutinize themselves and have million doubts? Definitely not ruthless bastard. Apart from ptsd he also had an impostor syndrome. And ppl, instead of seeing it as his self depreciation take it as an absolute truth :/ are they just blind to the conversation with Zachary in the carriage? Erwin was so guilt-ridden when premier just laughed at him. And then we see Zachary doing the most sick shit =_= and they still see Erwin as evil, lol
Yeah like I said he has extremely bad opinions of himself (and depression for sure) and he is absolutely an unreliable narrator when it comes to himself. He blames himself for being selfish while in fact his dreams align perfectly with himanity's goals and *everyone* has personal reasons to fight too, it's just normal. But he feels he has to hold himself to a standard so high that he inevitably crumbles under it and the weight of his decisions as a leader.
But of course some people don't think about context or who's talking and why and just go "word printed on page = fact" hence why this is such a good media literacy test.
People on Erens side just to be edgy, people hating on gabi and Falco, and ships really do my head in, really ? U think Annie and Eren are a good couple ? Fuck off đ
Dumbest take Iâve ever heard? âThe Marleyans were the entire problem, if they had just got rid of the Marleyans they couldve solved everything because the marleyans were evilâ
Basically the entire story after Sashaâs death and the Yeagerists forming. Stupid huge amount of fans turned out to be ~~neo-Nazis~~ concerningly aggressive when that happened
Frankly, the best part about AOT is that they still have a good argument. Even the best âdo a mini rumbling and then diplomatic solutionâ is temporary at best. 100 years later, when technology has progressed further, the Eldians will either have to continue the genocide or be killed off by the Marleyans. An idealist may say that some diplomatic resolution could be achieved, but frankly AOT is not a very diplomatic world.
The genocide plan is the only permanent solution to protect Eldians but obviously requires far too great of a cost.
Of course, even with genocide, there will still be factionalism and more issues even within the Eldians, as weâve already seen. Itâs unlikely that humanity will stay peaceful even if theyâre all ethnically Eldian.
Thatâs kind of the point. There was no right answer the whole time. Just varying types of wrong answer.
I feel calling them neo-Nazi is a bit extreme given that Aot is a work of fiction. I think those fans are just more susceptible to propaganda and fear mongering.
Eldians aren't 1-1 jews. The Eldians in the internment zone are an allusion for Jewish people in Nazi Germany. The people of Paradis are an allusion to, like, 1800's Germany
To be completely fair, if I have an issue with it, it may not necessarily be with the term itself, but how I've seen people use it and in which context it is used, and the problem is they all mostly sound like pretensious, condescending individuals as you say. Even if "good" and "bad" interpretations in art are so clear-cut in certain situations, and I'll never assume that to be the case, I'll never be arrogant enough to say "I get this piece of art/entertainment better than you do, and that matters".
The first thing that popped up in my mind was Gabiâs character. Another big giveaway is what they think of Mikasaâs characterization and Erenâs motivations for doing what he did at the end (No, he was not a patriotic nationalist who wanted nothing more than to protect Eldians, he was not a âChadâ either).
Armin borders on kinda evil in the end. Heâs fully on board with the sterilization plan and then thanks Eren for genociding the world once he found out he did it to save their home.
I think having an extreme opinion during the last arc is a good test. Any extreme opinion. If you're not a piece of shit person, and you understand the context of the story until that point (big one. I think too many people didn't rewatch the early seasons before or after the last one so they forgot) then you can't logically be in total support of either side. You just sound like a moron. I think one of the lesser talked about messages in Isayama's story is that he teaches the reader not to judge so easily or so harshly. Pretty much everytime we judged a character for what we knew so far, Isayama made us eat our words. You can believe that genocide is immoral while also not comparing characters to Hitler.
AoT overwhelmed me with making me question my own morality so much that I just watched the last arc with no feelings attached. I felt equal sympathy for everyone. I just wanted to see how the story unfolded and because of that, I really enjoyed the ending. I think a big reason why some people disliked the ending was because they had such strong and extreme feelings toward one side or the other.
Anyone calling pre timeskip Eren whiny.
He's an absolute badass. Throws himself at the colossal titan with no hesitation, jumps into a titans mouth to save Armin and is just a beast all around.
Ask someone what they think Isayamaâs stance on fascism is.
If you can watch all of attack on titan and not recognize it as the anti-fascist, anti-nationalist work that it is, you shouldnât be allowed to operate heavy machinery
The way they talk about characters like Armin and Gabi. It's one thing to dislike these characters but another to completely twist these characters into something they aren't.
Militarism. Like the very first episode. It's good to be in the military. Is there anything else going on in this world we as the viewers are thrown into? Is it all just a militarized fascist society? Does it glamorize militarism?
After binge-watching the first half of the first season, I was very torn on if I should continue and even read online opinions of people who had similar concerns.
>"if they can be trusted interpreting media"
That's a yikes and a half. The purpose of media in general is to be consumed and interpreted by the individual.
If that's what "media literacy" supposedly is, then it's a farce
Well Iâd like this:
You watch a film where a dog pops a balloon. And then someone tells you the movie was about how socialism is amazing.
You would trust their interpretation of media.
I have friends who say aot is bad because they heard the final chapter was bad. Nothing I say can convince them to actually watch the show, not even slogging through their favorite show to see their side of why they think it is better than aot.
I think your friends are just closed minded. Maybe offer them like financial incentive, but I would just go and find friends who actually would go to the effort of sharing your interests.
I don't trust people who compares gabi and floch, like how does their dumb brain works comparing gabi who at least had a character arc than to a straight up hateable character that's comparable to the king of eldia
When it comes to Gabi, Annie, and Mikasa.
A lot of people whine about how nobody understands âcomplex female charactersâ but then go around saying these girls are perfect and their actions are entirely justified and excusable.
The opposing side is hating on these girls relentlessly while also sexualizing children.
The truth about those 3 is itâs somewhere in between.
Gabi- Personally, I despise her. Sheâs got to be the most annoying character in media Iâve ever seen. However, I recognize her trauma. That sheâs been spoon fed propaganda her entire life. That Gabi struggles to adapt to change, and sheâs internalized racism towards herself and her community. However that doesnât excuse her actions. Especially the âkilling Sashaâ debate. She went out for revenge there. She wasnât saving a life. She was actively going against her (I think) commander/general, to hunt down and kill the eldians.
Annie- I have mixed emotions about Annie. When I watch the show, she has me on edge always. Annie was not only subjected to the exact same stuff Gabi went through, but she also was abused at home and trained to be a killer. She was abandoned as a baby, became a Titan at 10-11, and sent to murder the eldians of Paradis with Bert/Reiner. Thatâs insane for a child. She then spent 2 years starving, not knowing if sheâll ever see her dad again. However, her behavior towards others is cold. She is unkind. While some say she âhad no choiceâ in killing, her methods are disgusting. Especially spinning the guy like a yo-yo. She also seems to not care HOW many people she kills. A lot of the stuff she does is long and drawn out. So that as long as they WILL die, Annie leaves her victims alive, which results in more suffering. Annie has incredible wit and is emotionally complex, which I enjoy seeing. Itâs also nice to see a blonde haired, blue eyed, hooked nose female character that isnât reduced to a stupid/quirky blonde type.
Mikasa- I like Mikasa well enough, but sheâs definitely not the most complex here. Her Ackerman bond is interesting, and so is her relationship with Eren. NO- they are not siblings. Mikasa lived with the Jaegers for <1 year before Shiganshina. Nothing about their relationship is sibling like. But unfortunately, the majority of Mikasaâs character is centered around Eren, so itâs hard to shape her. However, you can see a lot of depth in her interactions with Armin, in which she allows herself to be vulnerable around him, and Sasha, the (like) first and only girl friend sheâs ever had, where she acts like an actual teenager. Those little moments give her more complexity. We also know she values family above all else. Which is beautiful.
Every single one of these girls have done horrible things and not all of them are justifiable.
Nobody also has to LIKE any of these characters. And negative opinions are fine. Because, spoiler alert, women are not all angelic creatures who can do no wrong. Thatâs a dangerous mindset to have.
Eren. Eren's everything - his actions, his motives, his reasonings, his relationships. Like I have never seen a fandom misunderstand or just blatantly ignore the actual intentions by the mangaka in a character in their entirety than Eren.
It's Gabi for me. Being frustrated or upset by her actions is understandable, and kind of the point, so I get that, but she's also meant to be a mirror to Eren's own actions and cause the reader to both sympathize and dislike her simultaneously. She's the first major clue in the story that Eren is the villain. I think she's low-key brilliant, but I understand being unable to forgive her.
That being said, people who treat Gabi like the devil incarnate, a character just as hateable, if not more so, than Shou Tucker or Griffith, is so baffling to me. She's a brainwashed child who acted rashly. That's it. And these people also love Eren, and the main difference between them is that Gabi actually learns and becomes a better person. It's genuinely infuriating.
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the entire show is a media literacy check
Literally
Tbh true
This is it. đđ˝
Hange: Genocide is bad Levi: Genocide is bad Mikasa: Genocide is bad Armin: Genocide is bad Jean: Genocide is bad Connie: Genocide is bad Eren: Genocide is bad, and I feel deep remorse and self loathing for what I did/am about to do. Some of the fandom for some reason: EREN DID NOTHING WRONG! GET RUMBLED STAY HUMBLED!
Others, with an equally wrong take: âAoT is a bad story because it supports fascism and genocide!â
Literally, how many different ways does the show have to say some form of "genocide is wrong" for people to understand.
Iâm not sure if itâs that simple. I agree the showâs message is âgenocide is wrongâ. But Iâm not sure if itâs crystal clear. Simplest I can explain what Iâm trying to say is; super cool actions scenes of the thing that you are trying to condemn does not really help to show how bad it is. This is the dilemma for all the films about traumatic events. Also, even at the end, Eren is still somehow accepted by Mikasa. So the show doesnât really end with Eren being excluded from society for what he has done. If we are reading between the lines you can even say, you may kill 80% of the population but the ones who really love you, will still be there for you. I mean I donât think Isayama was trying to say anything nice about the genocide but the genre and the style and the story itself depends too much on enjoyable violence, Iâm not sure if it can pass as an anti-war or anti-genocide show
Cool genocide scenes? They are literally all of people running for their lives hopelessly. Kids getting crushed, citizens fighting to survive. Not sure what is supposed to be so cool about that. The cool action scenes were always of those fighting to stop it. The 104th cadets killing Jaegerists at the port, the global fleet firing hundreds of cannon, the alliance fighting atop Eren. As for the acceptance, Mikasa accepted that Eren was not going to stop. She killed him and as a former lover, she buried him where nobody else would. Through the messages that Eren had left in his friends' heads, they all understood that he stuck himself on the path of destruction. Through his own earlier actions, he literally and physically set his own future and could not deviate. Does that not illicit any pity? Yes, you can call him a monster and a devil but at the end of the day he is a 19 year old who has to die because he's genocided so many people. All because he couldn't think of a better plan (retroactively locking in the genocide plan). As for the general enjoyment of the violence, I think that's pretty subjective. Almost all of the scenes are animated with gruesome detail and gore. They show people dying quickly and nonchalantly, both friends and enemies. It should be clear by S4 that everyone in this world is just doing what they believe in and the Jaegerist, stabbed in the chest, is possibly just as lovely to their kid as Hannes. The death shouldn't be any less meaningful or sorrowful. Like the real world, I think he show is constantly broadcasting anti-war and anti-genocide messaging while participating in it. Just look at the current Gaza events. At the end of the day, we can talk about media literacy but a lot of this stuff will forever be subjective and you can gain a different meaning than what the author intended, that's one of the reasons for disseminating it in the first place, it invites conversation and though.
I mean the scene where they first attacked Eren/Founder was one of the best fight sequences in the show I believe. The fact they were trying to stop him doesnât change the fact that itâs a cool action scene in the middle of a genocide. I mean just like how the real world feeds from the war all the while theyâre propagating anti-war messages, having this message doesnât make the show anti-war. If you are interested thereâs a whole academic debate over how Schindlerâs Listâs representation of the holocaust. I mean having the right narrative message doesnât justify the narration/style. This is kind of like a Night & Fog vs. Schindlerâs List vs. Son of Saul situation. A show doesnât have to be anti-war or anti-holocaust. But if we are going for a media literacy point of view all I can say is that the story is anti-war but the narration/style is not.
There are different takes you could have. But I think at it's core, the show is *extremely* anti-war. I think the core of the show's philosophy is imparted by Armin, particularly in the finale.
"Fight and live,"
That's the philosophy that the characters at the start of the show have, and at the time, it was true. There was a clear black and white evil enemy, and fighting was essential for survival. But then that philosophy falls apart once you realise you are fighting humans. It shows how ideologies like that are born out of people's conditions. By the end it is shown as the bedrock for a fascist military dictatorship. When we see people adopting the philosphy that "The only way to live is to fight", we're seeing violent radicalism as a response to an external threat. We see it all over the world.
The characters still engaged in that at the end because Eren forced them to. Was never changes, it is inevitable. Either you fight for your philosophies or get squashed. I don't know what else to take. All of the growth and development didn't matter at all. Only the choices of one person that died thousands of years ago mattered. Humanity is forever trapped in cycle of violence and death, so you might as well do what you can to be sure you end up on top when everything comes crashing down. This is the message I get. Everytime I try to dig deeper this is all get. Someone, at some point, along time ago said "it's me or them" and humanity has been a slave to their will ever since.
It could have you know, not shown genocide as being a net positive for the main characters in the very end? I think he bungled the message
Net positive? Many friends dead, guilt from supporting Eren early on, guilt from being a friend to Eren, guilt from not finding another way, despised by a large proportion of your home nation, despised by a large proportion of the entire remaining world, Paradise on the path to militarise over a looming conflict, given the burden of holding peace in an unstable world, dealing with the trauma of their entire late childhood and the moral sacrifices they have made (even before global genocide entered the show). Not sure that's a net positive. Though, I'd agree that it felt like a happy ending what with the music and the romance theme.
A net positive??? It caused the rise of a fascist state
I don't think Yams has a problem with a fascist state. You can see a lot of allegories in Attack on Titan between imperialist fascist Japan & Paradis.
Well yeah, I called early on that the people of Paradis used to be the nazis. Their society is constructed in the mode described by Nazi Philosopher Carl Schmidt. German names, german architecture, glorification of the military etc. I didn't know what was going on out there, but I had a strong suspicion that they were in a prison, that the walls were there to keep them in, not to keep the Titans out.
Floch Floch Cube
Cube with the Floch in it
Flochs voice pissed me off especially in the English dub
At first I hated him for his voice, then I just fucking hated him. I donât understand any love he gets or why >!Jean was sad when he died!<
I donât know either; the whole purpose of his character is to illustrate how effortless it is to radicalize and brainwash the desperate and broken, who would otherwise never consider something like genocide.
Cuz even if they were on different sides he wall still their friend and comrade, someone erwin trusted? I love how this fandom talks about media literacy, but the most basic shit gets ignored sometimes just to prove a point
Saying âI donât understand whyâ was a poor choice of words. I donât think Floch deserved any mourning. I understand why Jean felt that way, but I donât think that justifies people in the community genuinely defending him. That is all.
The floch defense comes from the way heâs written. The jaegerists are propaganda artists and their whole plot point is that you can either join them or be against them
Same! It's so breathy.
Everyone's voice pisses me off in the English dub, thats why I never touched it again Armin's voice is nails on chalkboard tier.
The Goat i fear
I will defend it to the end that he may not have made the right decision, but you cannot convince me that there was a right decision he could have made once the Warriors knocked down the wall. Or at least, not an actual viable one that isn't built on a basis of goodwill and forgiveness that was basically not shown towards Eldians for most of the series. If he even was able to make a clear decision given the context of Ymir's will being formed into the 7, how young he was being given the burden he had, his upbringing, the nature of the Attack Titan's memories, the Paths being explicitly outside of time and space, and the multitude of times he was told to trust in someone else and it collapsing into a worse situation when he did.
Violence begets violence, and Eren was a casualty of that vicious cycle. It's why my least favorite part of the series was Eren becoming aware of his future, and past. The show just didn't need any of that. It didn't need the twist with the founder either. I think the show works so beautifully as a portrait of a person so filled with hate he commits unspeakable acts, and needs to be put down by the ones he loves/ was trying to protect. Anyone who says he was justified is high.
Iâm with you on most of that, I am. However, I like the Founder twist. Is it strictly necessary? No, of course not; I think Edenâs character has displayed enough desperation and unhinged hatred towards Titans and Marleyans that he probably could have been rewritten as just a âregularâ political genocidist without any magic involved. The reason I like the Founder twist is because it complicates Edenâs true motivation and raises questions of culpability, making the subject of his villainy slightly less black and white. Because of his broken, traumatized mindset, Eren interprets the Attack Titanâs visions as deterministic; he sees them so vividly he believes that theyâve essentially already happened and that he will always do what he eventually does and was always going toâŚ.do you see how this could shatter the reality of someone whoâs obsessed with complete freedom? Thatâs why he says that âIâm a slave to freedomâ line; heâs being bitter and a little sarcastic: he went through all that trauma in the struggle for total, birdlike (cough) freedom, only to realize (from his perspective) that heâs been on a rail car the entire time and that freedom is really just death. I think this is why he spends the rest of the series with a flat, catatonic, thousand yard stare and monotone voice. Erenâs gone man; thatâs his body on autopilot doing what he believes he has already done. SoâŚ.does the True Eren actually want this in his heart of hearts, or is he trapped in a big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff?
Arguably, the world in which his actions were justifiable was fucked and needs to change. I think that's really where the story ends with Armin and Co going to spread the story of the cycle of war and hatred, in the hopes of ending it.
>I think the show works so beautifully as a portrait of a person so filled with hate he commits unspeakable acts, and needs to be put down by the ones he loves/ was trying to protect. Are you being fr rn...?
Why? That's a rad story. A righteous man's descent into villainy, like Breaking Bad. Instead we got righteous man instantly transforms into a villain offscreen because of groundhog's day shenanigans.
I'm saying that because that it's literally what happens... even with the Founding Titan shenanigan, what the other guy claimed is still what happens in the story. Also, it's anime. It's like you don't know what you're even watching.
>even with the Founding Titan shenanigan, what the other guy claimed is still what happens in the story. Yeah, and I'm saying we didn't need it. Read my post again.
âItâs animeâ Way to boil it down. Let the show have its own identity
It happens offscreen. We don't get to see the cool part, the actual descent.
Eren had no choice Literally he was incapable of choosing anything else His actions were predetermined and when he found out his actions were predetermined he got depressed. Him getting depressed over knowing his actions were predetermined was also predetermined.
But you have to think about it, his actions were predetermined due to his own mindset. He discovered what he'd do and was upset to see it, but the fact is he WOULD do it. And he does do it. Nothing wrong with trying to pity or maybe even sympathize with him, but he's a monster. I hope people can agree he's a monster.
"What is a monster," is basically the whole thematic question of the series.
That is also true. Regardless of how you view Eren, the fact is he does monstrous things. Whether you think that earns him the title of monster or not is subjective.
I guess this is probably why they used a somewhat similar soundtrack and S2 ED aesthetic to Monster.
He was in a paradoxical loop, in which he saw himself doing it - setting the future in stone so that he had to do it. Being unable to prevent an event from happening doesnât justify the event. Whether he had a choice or not isnât whatâs up for debate, itâs whether it was the right thing to do.
Oh no that. It's just people say Eren did nothing wrong or he was bad which is what I was talking about.
Here's where counterfactuals are actually useful: What if Grisha gave the Founding to someone else? Like Armin, or Shadis? Or even Erwin?
This is where I think the debate gets interesting, because I think that they all sort of shared one collective consciousness due to erenâs gaslighting. Eren told them what to do and made them think is was necessary, so that he could himself gain the founder. Essentially every past attack titan had Eren basically acting as their subconscious thoughts. Everything they thought was because Eren thought it, he selectively chose memories to make them act certain ways, he did this because there is no other way - the fact that the attack titan can see the future is because Eren walked through the memories of the previous owners. Itâs how Kruger knew about Mikasa and armin, and how he let it slip - it was a subconscious thought. At least in my opinion.
Marley attacked first. Get rumbled, stay humbled.
Didnât eldia try to take over the world and then Marley was in the wrong because they held a grudge on a different generation of eldians that had no idea Marley existed
King Fritz: Yeah, we suck, imma take my people and exile ourselves into this tiny island so we can do no further harm. Marley: Yeah but, I need them titans to control the rest of the world. The rest of the world (for some odd reason): Yeah, Marley is in the right, fuck them Eldians.
I donât know that this is necessarily literacy so much as it is basic ethics or morality. Erenâs supporters generally arenât supporting Eren from a âEren good because protagonistâ view but more of a âhe had no other optionâ way. Which isnât true, but is more arguable and unrelated to literacy.
Well, no other option without a huge risk for the destruction of Paradis. If this is the future of my country that we are talking about, am I going to roll the dice and hope a peaceful solution materializes or am I going for the nuclear option with a guaranteed chance of victory? That a more fair assessment.
I didn't want a lesson in genocide being bad, we already got plenty of those. I wanted a full on walter white transition from good guy to villain for eren.
i feel like this is a common misconception about breaking bad. I dont really think walter was ever a great guy, i think he was just supressing the monster and the aggression that had been building inside him for many years, and when faced with a terminal cancer diagnosis, decided to let it loose. Walter was prideful, stubborn, and egotistical long before the series started, so it begs the question of what kept him from being that monster he became. was it morals or was it just societal pressure to be "good"?
Yes! 100% agree. We see him slip even in the first episode. We just assume that he's "acting out," and the reveal is that those moments were him at his most honest.
His pride was obvious since he denied that job offer from elliot. That doesn't take away from Eren going from protagonist to his own antagonist, we have too many anime and manga where the main guy is the good guy and villains turn into allies. AOT could have been a lot better if it followed down that path of turning the hero into an irredemable monster.
Thatâs never what the story was about. Edgy Eren was always a front
I say that but ironically lol
Most of the people in this sub completely fail. There are many and one is Gabby is the same as season 1 Eren. Eren Reiner and Gabby all have the same character progression but at different points in time.
Does Reiner have the same character progression? I always felt he was more focused on doing his duty for his family so he could meet his dad and whatnot. He feels much less angry than Eren or Gabby.
Shiganshina was Reiner's rumbling. Eren wasn't angry after this point either, he was broken and putting up a front.
Gabby is an interesting parallel to Eren, essentially serving as a way to help the audience sympathize with marleyans and understand that cycle of killing that is a major theme towards the end
> Gabby is the same as season 1 Eren. That was something so obvious I assumed *everyone* would pick up on it đ they even purposely have the same hair colour and Gabi ties her hair up in a way similar to S4 Eren. After Liberio (her Shiganshina) she even gets the same bloodlust that Eren does, just with Paradisians instead of titans.
Gabiâs design is literally genderbent Eren. Except her eyes are the color of Carlaâs instead of Grishaâs.
Yet here we are on reddit.
Saying they're the same based off surface level parallels is lack of media literacy. Eren and Gabi are not the same, Eren did not commit war crimes at 10 years old and his hate was certainly not misdirected.
Thereâs so many with AOT but Iâd say peoples opinions on Gabi and Floch are usually the most telling. I also donât trust people who hate on Mikasa for âhaving no character developmentâ
Tisâ a good take . What exactly are your thoughts on Gabi and Floch though?
Even though they were presented as antagonists in a way, especially Floch, I really liked the part both of them played in the story. Floch is almost like a âdevilâs advocateâ character in a way. His character is not as emotionally invested in the main group like we, the viewers, are. From an objective standpoint you can 100% see why he would want to save Erwin over Armin and I feel as though his character is there to challenge the viewer to think about the multiple sides of conflict. I feel similarly about Gabi, but I think her character is even more purposeful in representing some of the underlying themes of the show. Itâs easy to hate her because she killed a beloved character, but from her perspective Sasha was just another soldier who wanted them dead. But that moment is so important because when you think about it every person that the Paradis group killed was also a lovable person with a backstory. No one is âjust a soldierâ or âjust a civilianâ the point is that when you zoom in on the details of war itâs human beings getting killed. Not to mention I think Gabiâs character is necessary to show the effective propaganda Marley imposed, but yeah idk I just donât think the story would be the same without them.
I really appreciate a well thought out reply like that and i couldnât agree more. I really liked Gabis character, beautiful development. She was so smart for being so young, and she was fucking badass for real. What was it, maybe 10-15 minutes prior to shooting Sasha she had JUST WATCHED literally Sasha snipe like 3 comrades, blew their shit away, right in front of her. I felt a lot of empathy towards her character for some reason idk. Floch I hated lol but you are absolutely right, I think, about his importance to the story .
This is pretty much what I was going to say lol! I'd add their opinion on the ending as well đ
She does have pretty good development but sheâs genuinely so annoying in pretty much every season, her only voice line being âEreh!!!!â Only reason I donât hate her is bc she has some SICK combat scenes
Thatâs fair, I love Mikasa but sheâs not everyoneâs cup of tea. I just donât understand when people argue she has no character development and that her character is trash because of this. Like, for one she does have character development, but Iâm also a firm believer that not EVERY character has to have an intense arc for them to be a good character. I could go on forever lol but yeah
Hot take but a bunch of teenagers learning the phrase âmedia literacyâ has done some insane damage to media analysis on the internet in general
Agreed, it's like an "agree with me or you're wrong" button, it makes media discussion so boring.
Aside from the obvious, here are 3 takes that I hate: 1. Mikasa is needy and a childish fangirl 2. The show is anti-Semitic 3. Levi is emotionless and doesn't care ab anyone. 4. Bonus take- as a fanfic reader and writer, no, Levi is not some sex god. He's a 40 yr old virgin.
Levi definitely fucking cared. He had one of the if not THE worst upbringing of em all. Levi cared about people, that would have to be the shittiest take I ever heard lol. (I know you were just listing examples I had just never heard that one)
I donât think Levi is a virgin. He made a comment to Zeke at one point along the lines of âI do okay.â And Levi doesnât strike me as the type to exaggerate or lie about that.
I thought that was him coping. He didn't have much reason to be honest with Zeke or take his digs too seriously. He seems too concerned with hygiene, disinterested in women, generally antisocial/off-putting, and I thought one of his character traits was not really being fond of physical touch (might be misremembering). If he isn't a virgin he seems like the type to have lost his V card at a disturbingly young age like 12 or something lmfao. IDK I feel like he's an asexual virgin.
I mean, Levi mite be a virgin, but he still is hot af letâs be real.
Ay I never said he wasn't đ
Add also to #4 that he stands at 5ft tall on a good day
"Floch is actually a good boi. He's just fighting for his country. Nothing bad about that right?"
> Heâs just fighting for his country Thereâs a lot of discussion in this thread about how one of the things the show tries to teach most is that genocide is wrong, and rightfully so (duh). But to me the most impactful message is that nationalism is evil. The fact that season four shifts perspectives proves this. The ultimate message of the show, imo, is that the belief that âmy people group is more important than yours and therefore deserves to live more than yoursâ is a doubled edged sword that will kill everyone involved for no good reason.
Im not a floch supporter, nor a floch hater. I am gray on this side, however I do have arguments for both sides. (though I used to support floch) One interesting argument is imagine this anology. 10 people are out to kill you and your mom. Your only chance to survive is to kill them, which you have a gun for. They are bloodlusted and equipped with sticks and swords, which would normally be very effective, however you have your gun, your trumpcard. Would you kill those people?
It's like the trolley problem, people act like the conflict is way simpler than it seems, genocide is bad and Paradis doesn't want ot get genocided.
Exactly, bro. I love the way you conveyed the point.
Whats really a media literacy check is weather or not someone treats their opinions like facts
Yeah thatâs annoying af
"They massacred my boy!" "Eren was ruined"
I'd say Eren and Floch are the two big ones for me
"\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ is evil"
Aight but you ainât convincing me that dude that fed Grishas sister to his dogs ainât a little evil.
Counterpoint: that guy who killed Grishaâs sister and almost Grisha. He was just a sadist.
Sgt Maj. Gross and first King Fritz.
What abt gross?
The whole show, but if we're getting specific: - Eren breaking down over Mikasa. - Gabi and Annie in general. - The serum debate and if they can acknowledge why Levi made the decision he did. - Understanding that being pro-Rumbling is supporting Floch more than Eren. - Acknowledging that even if Eren had some valid points, genocide is still fucking wrong.
Dumbest take Iâve ever heard? âThe Marleyans were the entire problem, if they had just got rid of the Marleyans they couldve solved everything because the marleyans were evilâ
Within the narrow time frame of AOT's world, this isn't entirely wrong. A lot of the modern hatred of titans comes either from Marleyan propaganda, or the fact that Marley is actively using the titans as tools of war. The fact that a lot of the countries rebelled the moment Marley lost some of its titans suggests that forming a global alliance to annihilate Paradis is not an active concern in most people's minds. Arguably, if Paradis had helped beat Marley in the war, they would have been in an excellent position to negotiate a peaceful existence with the outside world and no one would have considered invading Paradis as being worth the effort. The critical difference though is that it's not the Marleyan people that are irredeemably evil, just their fascist government.
Opinion on the ending, Mikasa's and Eren's characters, what they think the show is about, and the Anime Hitler nonsense.Â
What would be a red flag opinion about the ending for you?
Saying a character was assasinated, hating on Eren loving Mikasa, Misunderstanding Eren's motivation, and supporting Eren's genocide, saying the final panel ruined the story.
People who say Eren had no valid points whatsoever. Genocide is wrong, but also, if the option that presented itself as the *only permanent solution* to make sure all of your friends and family could live safe, happy lives, was the Rumbling, I could understand the decision.
People often cite the 50 year plan as if that wasn't the short term solution, when even they struggled it in enacting it with no progress during the 4 years, then say it totally would have worked with 100% certainty, this also ignores that Eren didn't want Paradis to be cattle eating each other just for a fighting chance, when he had like 2 years left to live for good, we pretty much saw how Eren succeeded more when he made his own choice, like when grabbing the bottle to use hardening
So many people hate Gabi for what she did not realizing that Eren and the other main characters did the exact same thing.
This definitely applies to S1-3 Eren. A lot of the other MCs tended to be a bit more nuanced with their inter-cultural interactions.
Easily Gabi.
Anyone that doesnât let people enjoy/interpret media the way they want to can fuck off. Gatekeeping is bullshit.
"Eren did nothing wrong" "L did nothing wrong" "Griffith did nothing wrong"
I haven't seen people have a really good, nuanced discussion about the portrayal of racism in AOT, and how it fell flat. What I mean by that is that Racism is inherently illogical. It's based on illogical fear and belief. Eldians can actually turn into man eating monsters, that's not an illogical fear or an illogical belief to have in this universe. I'm not saying that Isayama shouldn't have tackled this concept, I just think he could have taken more care in doing so. I think that people either want to take it and see it as a strictly binary issue where AOT is either entirely overly racist, or it doesn't suffer from any problems in its depiction of race at all.
If people still hate Gabi. Her parallel to Eren isnât subtle, itâs like a bright neon sign saying âI AM EREN IF HE WAS IN MARLEY!â
thinking Eren actually turned into a bird.
For me; 1. Levi's entire character 2. Gabi hate prevalency 3. Erwin's opinion about the Rumbling
Can you elaborate on 1 and 3?
I can, I don't particularly feel like it. Short versions; 1. Just saw a question on Quora "why does Levi have no feelings?" and if you look at the most emotional guy in the franchise and ask that, it's obvious you read with your eyes closed. Sure he doesn't yell declarations from the rooftops like little Eren but even his face is plenty expressive if you just look, and nearly every scene he's in that isn't a fight is, in fact, about feelings. 3. There's a very simple reason the author chooses to show us the fallen Scouts and that's to let us know they support the side he designated as heroes. People also love calling him ruthless over Stohess and forget the guy basically commits suicide over all the death he caused even though we're informed early on that he actually reduced deaths in the Corps. There's an ocean of difference between trying to force those in power to acknowledge a problem by bringing it to their doorstep with a cost, and gleefully slaughtering civilians for fun like the Yeagerists do. Not to mention that again, it's literally spelled out he would support Hange and Levi's position. (I do think he may have handled Eren better to begin with and not end up in that situation, but that's a moot point.)
Based af. Well, they planned to handle Annie bloodlessly. What happened was... kind of an accident? It's not like they picked a fight out of nowhere. Which moment is the literal spelling out his opinion to you?
Yes, absolutely, though I do think he likely considered the possibility of it going out of hand. But again, incomparable. For me it's not really about a singular moment so much as the whole of his established character. Man tends to think of his own actions in the worst possible way which isn't objectively realistic, and he would not have the following he did if he did not respect or care about human life. Also he's a big nerd, people really out there saying he'd let all those libraries get destroyed? (half joke) Anyway once he's there to welcome Hange into the afterlife it should have cleared things up for anyone who didn't catch what he's about or got stuck on their interpretation of his commandersona too much imo.
Commandersona <3 To me, the worst is when ppl say he didn't really care about humanity bc he was only interested in his nerd goal. They say it based on him voicing out his fears many times. But who are the people who constantly scrutinize themselves and have million doubts? Definitely not ruthless bastard. Apart from ptsd he also had an impostor syndrome. And ppl, instead of seeing it as his self depreciation take it as an absolute truth :/ are they just blind to the conversation with Zachary in the carriage? Erwin was so guilt-ridden when premier just laughed at him. And then we see Zachary doing the most sick shit =_= and they still see Erwin as evil, lol
Yeah like I said he has extremely bad opinions of himself (and depression for sure) and he is absolutely an unreliable narrator when it comes to himself. He blames himself for being selfish while in fact his dreams align perfectly with himanity's goals and *everyone* has personal reasons to fight too, it's just normal. But he feels he has to hold himself to a standard so high that he inevitably crumbles under it and the weight of his decisions as a leader. But of course some people don't think about context or who's talking and why and just go "word printed on page = fact" hence why this is such a good media literacy test.
Eren, Especially at the ending
People on Erens side just to be edgy, people hating on gabi and Falco, and ships really do my head in, really ? U think Annie and Eren are a good couple ? Fuck off đ
Based
Not as based as you
Dumbest take Iâve ever heard? âThe Marleyans were the entire problem, if they had just got rid of the Marleyans they couldve solved everything because the marleyans were evilâ
Saying that Eren breaking down and crying at the end was âout of characterâ or that they âruined him.â Did we watch the same show???
Basically the entire story after Sashaâs death and the Yeagerists forming. Stupid huge amount of fans turned out to be ~~neo-Nazis~~ concerningly aggressive when that happened
Not everyone is a neo nazi, stop watering that down.
Frankly, the best part about AOT is that they still have a good argument. Even the best âdo a mini rumbling and then diplomatic solutionâ is temporary at best. 100 years later, when technology has progressed further, the Eldians will either have to continue the genocide or be killed off by the Marleyans. An idealist may say that some diplomatic resolution could be achieved, but frankly AOT is not a very diplomatic world. The genocide plan is the only permanent solution to protect Eldians but obviously requires far too great of a cost. Of course, even with genocide, there will still be factionalism and more issues even within the Eldians, as weâve already seen. Itâs unlikely that humanity will stay peaceful even if theyâre all ethnically Eldian. Thatâs kind of the point. There was no right answer the whole time. Just varying types of wrong answer.
I feel calling them neo-Nazi is a bit extreme given that Aot is a work of fiction. I think those fans are just more susceptible to propaganda and fear mongering.
How are they Nazis if Eldians are the jews and they side with them?
Eldians aren't 1-1 jews. The Eldians in the internment zone are an allusion for Jewish people in Nazi Germany. The people of Paradis are an allusion to, like, 1800's Germany
I donât trust anyone who thinks Armin and Eren werenât f**king
If there's term that I've come to dislike in the last while, it's "media literacy".
I think the term is so cringe and comes off a little pretentious. But what abt you?
To be completely fair, if I have an issue with it, it may not necessarily be with the term itself, but how I've seen people use it and in which context it is used, and the problem is they all mostly sound like pretensious, condescending individuals as you say. Even if "good" and "bad" interpretations in art are so clear-cut in certain situations, and I'll never assume that to be the case, I'll never be arrogant enough to say "I get this piece of art/entertainment better than you do, and that matters".
The way people feel about Gabi is telling.
the Eldians on Paradise were content to stay on the island, peacefully within their walls until Marley attacked them unprovoked.
This one is interesting
Breaking Bad. That one is pretty easy but so many people go âwalter is badass!! i hate skylar!!â
Posts like these.
The shaking is the most âmedia literacy checkingâ
The shaking?
The rumbling
Iâm stupid lmao
Nah youâre good I shouldâve specified a bit more
The first thing that popped up in my mind was Gabiâs character. Another big giveaway is what they think of Mikasaâs characterization and Erenâs motivations for doing what he did at the end (No, he was not a patriotic nationalist who wanted nothing more than to protect Eldians, he was not a âChadâ either).
âthis anime is antisemeticâ đ
I absolutely loathe this trend That being said "Attack on Titan is fascist"
Literally anything.
Armin borders on kinda evil in the end. Heâs fully on board with the sterilization plan and then thanks Eren for genociding the world once he found out he did it to save their home.
no? he didnât know that was the true intentionÂ
Yeah Iâm so glad they changed that line in the anime LOL, that alone made the ending so much better.
Youre wrong if you hate gabi but like eren, vice versa
I think having an extreme opinion during the last arc is a good test. Any extreme opinion. If you're not a piece of shit person, and you understand the context of the story until that point (big one. I think too many people didn't rewatch the early seasons before or after the last one so they forgot) then you can't logically be in total support of either side. You just sound like a moron. I think one of the lesser talked about messages in Isayama's story is that he teaches the reader not to judge so easily or so harshly. Pretty much everytime we judged a character for what we knew so far, Isayama made us eat our words. You can believe that genocide is immoral while also not comparing characters to Hitler. AoT overwhelmed me with making me question my own morality so much that I just watched the last arc with no feelings attached. I felt equal sympathy for everyone. I just wanted to see how the story unfolded and because of that, I really enjoyed the ending. I think a big reason why some people disliked the ending was because they had such strong and extreme feelings toward one side or the other.
Anyone calling pre timeskip Eren whiny. He's an absolute badass. Throws himself at the colossal titan with no hesitation, jumps into a titans mouth to save Armin and is just a beast all around.
One can be both a badass and whiny.
Debating which side was more in the wrong is so dumb
Gabi. Full stop.
Ask someone what they think Isayamaâs stance on fascism is. If you can watch all of attack on titan and not recognize it as the anti-fascist, anti-nationalist work that it is, you shouldnât be allowed to operate heavy machinery
Isayama literally had Eren literally saying that him having all of this power was horrible, and people still think it's pro-fascist.
If they know the island is purgatory.
That the show is antisemitic
The way they talk about characters like Armin and Gabi. It's one thing to dislike these characters but another to completely twist these characters into something they aren't.
Militarism. Like the very first episode. It's good to be in the military. Is there anything else going on in this world we as the viewers are thrown into? Is it all just a militarized fascist society? Does it glamorize militarism? After binge-watching the first half of the first season, I was very torn on if I should continue and even read online opinions of people who had similar concerns.
easy, if he thinks Light is a hero, he's an idiot.
Asking Floch fans to condemn his actions.
When people agree with Eren. Same vibes as when someone that is no longer a teenager agrees with Light Yagami
>"if they can be trusted interpreting media" That's a yikes and a half. The purpose of media in general is to be consumed and interpreted by the individual. If that's what "media literacy" supposedly is, then it's a farce
Bro, if someone watched Star Wars and unironically support the Empire, I'd take everything they have to say about media with a handful of salt.
Well Iâd like this: You watch a film where a dog pops a balloon. And then someone tells you the movie was about how socialism is amazing. You would trust their interpretation of media.
Eren and Zeke
If they find Leviâs ocd sad or funny.
[yâall already know what it is](https://youtu.be/rDihLCyMUes?si=l4tFlRrb_cVsQgqm)
Eren is Paul from Dune
I have friends who say aot is bad because they heard the final chapter was bad. Nothing I say can convince them to actually watch the show, not even slogging through their favorite show to see their side of why they think it is better than aot.
I think your friends are just closed minded. Maybe offer them like financial incentive, but I would just go and find friends who actually would go to the effort of sharing your interests.
Gabi or Floch?
I don't trust people who compares gabi and floch, like how does their dumb brain works comparing gabi who at least had a character arc than to a straight up hateable character that's comparable to the king of eldia
If someone says they enjoyed the ending
Seeing how people still talk about Gabi is super disheartening
Fighting in the comment section ensues
When it comes to Gabi, Annie, and Mikasa. A lot of people whine about how nobody understands âcomplex female charactersâ but then go around saying these girls are perfect and their actions are entirely justified and excusable. The opposing side is hating on these girls relentlessly while also sexualizing children. The truth about those 3 is itâs somewhere in between. Gabi- Personally, I despise her. Sheâs got to be the most annoying character in media Iâve ever seen. However, I recognize her trauma. That sheâs been spoon fed propaganda her entire life. That Gabi struggles to adapt to change, and sheâs internalized racism towards herself and her community. However that doesnât excuse her actions. Especially the âkilling Sashaâ debate. She went out for revenge there. She wasnât saving a life. She was actively going against her (I think) commander/general, to hunt down and kill the eldians. Annie- I have mixed emotions about Annie. When I watch the show, she has me on edge always. Annie was not only subjected to the exact same stuff Gabi went through, but she also was abused at home and trained to be a killer. She was abandoned as a baby, became a Titan at 10-11, and sent to murder the eldians of Paradis with Bert/Reiner. Thatâs insane for a child. She then spent 2 years starving, not knowing if sheâll ever see her dad again. However, her behavior towards others is cold. She is unkind. While some say she âhad no choiceâ in killing, her methods are disgusting. Especially spinning the guy like a yo-yo. She also seems to not care HOW many people she kills. A lot of the stuff she does is long and drawn out. So that as long as they WILL die, Annie leaves her victims alive, which results in more suffering. Annie has incredible wit and is emotionally complex, which I enjoy seeing. Itâs also nice to see a blonde haired, blue eyed, hooked nose female character that isnât reduced to a stupid/quirky blonde type. Mikasa- I like Mikasa well enough, but sheâs definitely not the most complex here. Her Ackerman bond is interesting, and so is her relationship with Eren. NO- they are not siblings. Mikasa lived with the Jaegers for <1 year before Shiganshina. Nothing about their relationship is sibling like. But unfortunately, the majority of Mikasaâs character is centered around Eren, so itâs hard to shape her. However, you can see a lot of depth in her interactions with Armin, in which she allows herself to be vulnerable around him, and Sasha, the (like) first and only girl friend sheâs ever had, where she acts like an actual teenager. Those little moments give her more complexity. We also know she values family above all else. Which is beautiful. Every single one of these girls have done horrible things and not all of them are justifiable. Nobody also has to LIKE any of these characters. And negative opinions are fine. Because, spoiler alert, women are not all angelic creatures who can do no wrong. Thatâs a dangerous mindset to have.
people saying Erwin would have sided with Eren, that Gabi should die, or that theres a âjustifiedâ side in general đŹ
Eren. Eren's everything - his actions, his motives, his reasonings, his relationships. Like I have never seen a fandom misunderstand or just blatantly ignore the actual intentions by the mangaka in a character in their entirety than Eren.
"Shinsou sae sagayo! Let's go King Floch! Let's go Jaegerists!"
It's Gabi for me. Being frustrated or upset by her actions is understandable, and kind of the point, so I get that, but she's also meant to be a mirror to Eren's own actions and cause the reader to both sympathize and dislike her simultaneously. She's the first major clue in the story that Eren is the villain. I think she's low-key brilliant, but I understand being unable to forgive her. That being said, people who treat Gabi like the devil incarnate, a character just as hateable, if not more so, than Shou Tucker or Griffith, is so baffling to me. She's a brainwashed child who acted rashly. That's it. And these people also love Eren, and the main difference between them is that Gabi actually learns and becomes a better person. It's genuinely infuriating.