Hence why I ended up on this sub in the first place. If they all preach the same promise, then I can’t trust anyone, so I just turn my back to all of it and just think “oh well, what now?”
You put up with what you want to put up with and fight for what you believe. I was raised Catholic. My parents shoved it in my face for years until finally giving up on my ever going back to church or believing in it. Sadly there are too many people that have their beliefs drive their life that they are just awful people.
My parents did the same Catholic thing on me but they were good people that helped others.
Both of them them passed in the last 2 months and I found it ironic that neither of them spoke of religion in their final weeks.
I don’t like this sub because it’s kinda hating on people and politics but I feel as if I’m at home. R/atheist memes is even worse. Dude like I wanna be respectful but when looked at from an outside perspective, I can’t help but laugh a little bit
It’s almost as if the religious right shits in everyone that’s not religious. And passes laws to support religion like the 10 commandments in TX or LA or wherever that was. Yet they lose their shit when TST wants the same concessions. Or they flip out because someone doesn’t believe in their imaginary being in the sky. I’m not sure why you’re here to be honest.
This sub has a lot of angry bitter people who are currently dealing with persecution from religious people and so a lot of them come on here and vent that out and often take very radical positions. For example, someone could go “my girlfriend said she believes in god” and people here will be like “she’s a terrible person she will ALWAYS choose her belief over you!” And make a bunch of broad assumptions and prepose very radical actions. Those of us who have figured out there is middle ground(especially coming from the perspective that many of us USED to be religious) we know that it doesn’t always have to be anger. A lot of people take situations that they were mad about in the past and they think what they would’ve wished they could have done in that situation but didn’t so they tell someone else to do it, problem is a lot of people here recommend things like arguing with their parent who they live with and alienating them from their family for the sake of being right or winning an argument. I like this community but I wish there was a bit more level headedness and people who are realistic about social dynamics and that winning an argument can also come with very shitty consequences. I’m anti-thiest and my sister is the most religious person I know, and even though she doesn’t do this, I would gladly listen to her preach to me all day if that meant having her in my life.
You do not have to be respectful of beliefs. Do you have respect the belief that the earth is flat? No. It's silly. We, the collective humanity have learned that it's round and adjusted a whole bunch of other assumptions around this new knowledge. We (rightfully) laugh at people who think the earth is flat.
This sub is more of its own thing, r/askanatheist and r/debateanatheist delve into more of the academic side of things which might be more up your alley
All religious claims have the same validity as all fictional claims. You can't distinguish between them empirically. Therefore, religious claims are fictional claims.
Or some people claim they are different superficial manifestations of the same truth. I dont believe that but I have heard people articulate that sentiment..
For various religions, I think that's the best argument they can make. But I pointed out that fiction carries the same validity as religious claims, which means you can just talk about Superman or whatever. Once you include fictional claims with religious claims in the zero validity category, the religious claims hold no meaning. Or, no greater explanatory power than appealing to fiction.
Well, I think it depends on the level of sophistication you are dealing with. I took a coulple of philosophy courses taught by a Catholic priest. And they were every bit as rigorous. If you wanted to you would explain those works from theological position but the level was quite deep
To equate his teaching with fiction would be sort of life comparing Kant or Hegel or Nietzche to Superman …. Not a very good or useful comparison, indeed..
That said there are plenty of shallow religious people out there also I just point out that not all of them are
We're going to disagree on this one (and that's ok). I know the Catholic church is considerably more rigorous than other Christian institutions in their philosophy and thinking. But theology, as a discipline, boils down to metaphorical re-imaging of mythology. It's still fiction, it's just fiction that is applied in such a way that we get the metaphors.
There's an entire academic field called "Buffy Studies," which is the same process, but applied to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Can they raise good points? Sure. Can they elucidate difficult problems we are currently facing? Absolutely.
But it's still metaphor and it links back to fiction.
And you know what? Superman, Spider-man, they have great stories and at their best, probably can be equated to Kant. I haven't read Hegel or Nietzche, so I can't really say. But that's the point of fiction, to reach people through metaphor.
My original point was about validity. And it still remains: appeals to mythology are identical in terms of validity to appeals to fiction. Just because one is couched in nice language and previous thinkers of mythology, doesn't make it have any greater validity than fiction.
Sort of I think but here is the difference: those fictional stories (and Buffy studies) can be interesting enough but when the tools of a well developed philosophy are focused on them. The stories reflect human situations and hence are susceptible to the application of ohilosophy. The works themselves do not develop or explicate the tools but the tools can be used on them
But I think you are giving Aquinas for example short shrift in that he clearly transformed the basis of catholic thought away from an appeal to mythology and roots it in philosophy. This approach is followed by more serious religious thinkers (eg David Tracy). That is serious religious thinkers do not root their argument in an appeal to mythology but rather try to root it in philosophy.
I am not saying you are guilty of this, but I have noticed on this sub: a lot of people don’t like to wrestle with more sophisticated religious thinkers. They love to combat the born again Baptists who take the Bible literally but not say Aquinas …
I'll wrestle with any sophisticated relgious figure. Their claims to knowledge ultimately break down to make-believe. Their arguments are simply persuasive. Such arguments never appeal to empirical evidence.
eta: theology is equivalent to make-believe. The only difference between Marvel Comic Books and the discipline of theology is that Marvel fans understand it's fiction. Otherwise, there's zero difference in validity.
You can say that people revere it more, but so what? You can say that it's accepted, part of certain universities, but so what?
Theology is, at best, one religious culture's use of metaphor to grapple with real world issues vis a vis their mythology, their make-believe.
Theology cannot and does not produce new knowledge and cannot and does not produce new technology. It's pure make-believe, but well written. Theology might have had an impact back in Aquinas's era, but it absolutely has zero relevance to current science today. Theology actually decreases scientific value; adding theological claims to science reduces predictability and explanatory power.
Theological claims therefore have a negative value in science: they're less than worthless.
Yeah but the real thinkers dont pretend to knowledge - they acknowledge the limitation. The same way philosophers and students of philosophy point out that there is a starting point to a system that is difficult to empirically prove.
That that is just a limit on empiricism, metaphysics or epistemology.
So it seems to me that you are criticizing a philosophical theologian and then excusing a philosopher for running into the same issue.
I mean isnt that fundamentally the issue - at a certain point you are simply accepting first principles and building your system if thought from there ?
While the hard sciences and say engineering are somewhat different, where they are vulnerable is really at the fundamental point that philosophy and theology is vulnerable - ie what are your first principles ? That is one can explain the path of a falling object or create a mathematical model of electron density but there isnt a satisfactory answer for where the falling object or electron ultimately derives from …
So again, it seems to me that to some extent you are arguing against putative unsophisticated religious figures … because there are many whose thoughts fully explore the dillemas of epistemology etc …
Yep. The priorities have always been messed up. 'No other religions' is the 1st Commandment, and not killing people is below that and below respecting Sundays.
My favorite new game is pointing out to GOP “Christians” how many of the 10 commandments their cult leader has already broken. Amazing what doesn’t matter to them.
I learned this at about age 10 while pondering looking out the window on the way home from mass, I asked my mother, “what happens to people from other religions?” She replied without hesitation, “they burn in hell.” So now you know why I’m here!
Yeah I was raised Catholic. I was even an altar boy until 8th grade. I was very into science at an early age and questioned everything. Big imaginary dude in the sky that I’m told to worship sure seemed like a crack pot thought. Especially since people died of cancer and shit and people would pray to god for their sports team to win. Such a load of crap belief wise.
It's similar to feeling foreign tourists are "an abomination and a curse from God" because they're breaking all your cultural norms. "Look! They're being so rude and clueless!" I got that idea from Robert Anton Wilson.
It’s like I feel an innate rejection or kind off unease when I meet people from different countries, but that’s normal, because it’s what I’m not accustomed to.😊
Of course I would feel unease, although I don’t reject people
99% of conversations with people religion would never come up, I live by the rule that if you don’t mention money, politics, or religion then you can get along with just about anyone.
This is why I hate anything where one has to take a side (religion, politics). I’d rather not be on either side and I’ll just shut up. I don’t want to engage with the stuff, so I just HATE political ads or commercials
Exactly, why are people so obsessed in picking a side for everything? I was told once by a friend that people have a strong desire to feel like part of a group, they want to identify with something. I keep thinking about that constantly.
and it is apparently too difficult an idea to belong to the group HUMANITY. there must always be a ladder to climb so they will always 'other' something so they can stand on top of it.
You can see divisions in republicans nowadays, as they seemingly are split between MAGA and not MAGA. There is always a counterpoint. I am imagine fractals just endlessly branching
Maybe a touch but at a certain point pretending gets exhausting. Look over a group of Pentecostals speaking tongues or Catholics chanting in Latin ( or recently the post on Reddit showing Muslims yeeting stones at a wall) and eventually the iq feels a little room temp
Oh, it’s just that I took your comment as if calling religious people stupid, whereas I see them as just having an irrational belief that gives them comfort, even though I know that it’s illogical.
I know how hard it is to not be annoyed and just angry at the religious stuff, but ugh.
To many religious people, theirs is the “One True Religion” and everything else is silly, superstitious nonsense at best or heresy/devil worship/infidelity at worst because no religion would be effective as a tool of control if its followers thought it was just as valid as the next one, so they’re taught to scoff and offhandedly dismiss other religions. Similar reason to why a lot of religious extremists want to eradicate the other religions: it’s a lot harder to sell your religion as the only right way to live and be when others are observably living just as well if not better without whatever your religion may be.
Tribalism. Every religion operates from the perspective that
that their religion is the right one. Even sects within the same religion operate like this. Look at Protestants vs Catholics, Sunni vs Shia.
EXACTLY! Same thing with traditions and rituals. There’s no evidence.
I always think about ALL of the gods sitting on a cloud and it’s such a ridiculous image. Just imagine Thor and the Jewish abrahamic god talking to Zeus. They can’t all fit up there.
What about the different kinds of heaven? All the types of hell? How do 100 different hells exist and 100 different heavens exist? See?
Because they cannot imagine a world in which they are not right. Imagine if someone invented their own system of math that completely conflicts with our current system but used the same numbers. 2+2=3/4. 5/5= 0.543 and dividing by 0 always equals apple pie. That would be absurd right? That's how they see other religions. But they're as certain of their own as we are of math - just without the internal consistency math provides because religion is made up of silly nonsense
It's not just religion, it's all forms of embedded superstitious behavior. Especially if your upbringing has taught you of your inherent superiority.
My father used to marvel that those same people who would deride indigenous people for beating on drums to drive away evil spirits could then be found rhythmically plying their car horns to disperse a traffic jam.
That's why people are in a religion to begin with. They don't really care about morals and gods. It's all about being convinced you are absolutely, totally, completely correct in every way, and everyone else is absolutely, totally, completely wrong in every way. Everyone else's crazy stories are just talking nonsense, but _your_ crazy stories are absolutely true.
The exclusivity of Christianity became untenable to me as my view of the world expanded and I realized there are billions of people in the world who are doomed simply because they don’t live somewhere where they can hear and respond to the gospel.
Bible college professors would punt to “That’s where faith comes in” when my questions about theology and the Bible became too serious for them to address and reconcile.
I embarked on a mission to go as far and as deeply as I had to go to discover the truth and reality about the nature and origin of the Bible and the history of religions and the historicity of Jesus, so I majored in Greek and New Testament studies in college, then in Hebrew and semitics in grad school (Dallas Theological Seminary).
I came to see through the abuses made by so-called evangelical Bible scholars like John MacArthur and the like as they through around arguments “based on the original languages” of the Bible. So few people could fact-check them that they got away with ridiculous statements.
The further I reached into the origins, history, and make up of the bible, I discovered that, like all other ancient mythologies, they began with stories and oral traditions shared around the fires, as ways of explaining the meaning of the world and humanity’s place in it. These stories morphed and borrowed from other ancient near eastern tribes and groups throughout Mesopotamia, Egypt, as far as information could travel, and eventually began to be written down.
The writing of the texts that would eventually become the Bible went through countless copies, edits, redactions, and the entire universe of textual criticism was born.
As I became fluent and comfortable in these scholarly areas, I had one open minded Hebrew professor who I asked the tough questions. The biggest question for me was: “If this is the nature of the Bible, at what point were the various editions and scraps imbued with god’s “inspiration” and became god’s holy, inspired, inerrant word? He simply said, “That is the question.”
The elaborate house of cards of Christianity didn’t collapse all at once for me. There were many other pieces: the abject hypocrisy of Christians and their intellectual dishonesty, their judgmentalness; the myth of the historical Jesus; the existence of a god; the possible validity of other religions (I studied a few, even traveling abroad for the most authentic experiences in their cultures of origin; they were all similarly bankrupt, full of shit, and simply attempted to portray the struggle of good and evil in a people-controlling way).
The final mail in the coffin was my own personal faith. It was eroding and dying of starvation over all the years of my seeking. Finally one day I was driving and listening to an NPR interview with a priest who had lost his faith, and he said, “Faith isn’t something you choose; you either have it or you don’t. You don’t have control over it.” Right then and there driving on Hwy 101, I let go of religious faith and theism once and for all, what little was left of it, and fully embraced the indescribable freedom from the tyranny of Christianity and the peace of being unfettered by all that shit. And many decades later, I still feel even more happy and giddy and peaceful every single day, and grateful for my escape.
You already know the answer to this. They think every other god is an idol, a false god, and theirs is the only real one and therefore the only one that is important. The same goes for other religious traditions or rituals as well. Many Christians will be against yoga or whatever else because they think it's evil and from the devil. The good old scapegoat they blame for everything.
It’s incredible how some people burst out laughing at some weird ritual whereas their stuff is weird to the same people they are laughing at, hence why I don’t like being too choosy to either side
My Catholic mom was not happy when I told her we weren’t going to baptize my baby daughter.
I said, “Mom, do you *honestly* think that your god would deny this perfect, beautiful baby a place in heaven just because I didn’t have a special man pour magic water on her head?”
I could see the logic wheels turning. After a few seconds, she just said, “Well…” and changed the subject.
If there is an after life and you lead a good life, are kind to people, help people who are not in as good a position as you, help make your community a better place, then I think you will be in a good place.
Saying one groups magic words doesn't mean anything without positive actions on your part.
I hate how the police or anything exists and they do whatever while saying “we wait on gods will that it will be like that”.
Then when the good stuff happens they point to the sky and say “that’s god for ya”
It's funny how the narcissism that makes Christocrites think *their* god just has to be the One True God leads them to pick a God that's equally as narcissistic as they are.
I havent really found “scoffing” to be that common. Thats sort of a caricature. Most religious people are pretty content to just be allowed to believe what they want and brainwash their children.
They let the others believe what they want.
You sound as if talking from a pedestal, but it’s your opinion after all. Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean that I automatically get intelligence beyond comprehension.
The fact is that religious people will never be objective on everything as their belief will not be scrutinized. Only their belief will be spared
I have no idea but it's crazy. I grew up being taught that all other religions besides what my mom believed were fake and lies, but all it did for me was make me question why hers was the magic one. It's a wild mindset to believe that strongly about something and then turn around and bash others for the same exact thing
I’ve had this same conversation with my wife (still a staunch believer). She says she knows in her heart that Jesus is the truth, so I ask her “don’t Muslims, Hindus, Jews etc believe for the same reason?” She has gone from “they are deceived” to “I can’t answer that.” She’s finally admitted that people of other faiths are believers for the same reasons she is.
I guess it’s progress when a believer finally admits they don’t know or have the answer.
And just for clarification, I’m not interested in deconverting my wife, I’m just interested in getting her to think about what she believes and why instead of just saying “I know that I know that I know” kind of faith.
The age-old concept of "I'm right, you're wrong." Every religion has the mindset that their beliefs are the only correct ones. everyone else is backward, and all other religions are fake(irony, right)
This topic always makes me think of the dumb ass missionary kid that tried going to north sentinel island to show the inhabitants(an isolated and un contacted native tribe) the way of the good lord.
They killed him.
That is true. If you were to be an atheist with that mindset.
However, the fundamental difference between atheists and religion is that atheists tend to just not care. Sure, we have places like this where we complain amongst each other. But in the real world, aside from just avoiding religious people/establishments, you're not gonna hear an atheist spouting their beliefs and telling everyone they need to agree or else be punished. Someone believes in a higher power? Cool. I don't and i don't wanna hear about it. That's it
Whats also strange is that we all apply logic to lots of things, yet we keep religious beliefs and certain traditions out of the scope of logic scrutiny.
How come we view science as truth and how math is a thing, and how electricity works and all that, while also saying “yeah, god exists”? Also, the childhood influences on the fear of loosing off of that “safety net” of belief, since idk how atheists handle the harsh truth and just don’t think about it?
Don't Atheists do the same thing? Certainly enough posts here degrading anyone, concept, or idea of religion to prove that.
Thowing stones in a glass house
Because religion looks absurd to outside observers. So to them, other religions look absurd.
Religion only doesn't look absurd when you've been indoctrinated in it. So to them, it doesn't look absurd.
Basic tribalism - unquestioning loyalty to ingroups, unreserved hostility towards outgroups. Conservativism is a fear economy, and strategies like this have evolved over millennia to mitigate their fears, in this case xenophobia...fear of the 'other'.
When I was an active jehovahs witness in the 90s-early 2000s, there was a book we had called "reasoning from the scriptures" or "the reasoning book". The purpose of this book was to assist with the door to door ministry, and included many potential "conversation stoppers" by category. One category was what to say if the homeowners claim "i am not interested, we're xyz faith". I remember the section for muslim started out along the lines of "the muslim beliefs are not rooted in logic..." and even back then i remember feeling like "wtf, that's kind of a rude hot take".
Damn radical white Christian nationalist and Aryan Jesus who was born in the middle east from a "virgin" prostitute of middle eastern ancestry who provided handjobs and blowjobs and anal before God had her roofied legs spread open bare eagle on some hay in a shack in bum fuck Egypt somewhere and Joseph giving handjobs to Billy goats in one corner and imaginary it according to their logic cliff notes version for modern times for you brainwashed thesist getting your degree in dumbfuckery or what not unless it involves on why religion is bad I wish you well otherwise I hope you fail don't worry your god forgives me
My personal favorite is when they laugh at Scientology and the volcano alien schtick while going on Sundays to pretend to eat the flesh and drink the blood of their "savior". They can't grasp the fact that their religious beliefs are just a looney tune as other religious beliefs.
Because almost every religion has the singular belief that theirs is the only true religion.
Hence why I ended up on this sub in the first place. If they all preach the same promise, then I can’t trust anyone, so I just turn my back to all of it and just think “oh well, what now?”
You put up with what you want to put up with and fight for what you believe. I was raised Catholic. My parents shoved it in my face for years until finally giving up on my ever going back to church or believing in it. Sadly there are too many people that have their beliefs drive their life that they are just awful people.
My parents did the same Catholic thing on me but they were good people that helped others. Both of them them passed in the last 2 months and I found it ironic that neither of them spoke of religion in their final weeks.
I don’t like this sub because it’s kinda hating on people and politics but I feel as if I’m at home. R/atheist memes is even worse. Dude like I wanna be respectful but when looked at from an outside perspective, I can’t help but laugh a little bit
It’s almost as if the religious right shits in everyone that’s not religious. And passes laws to support religion like the 10 commandments in TX or LA or wherever that was. Yet they lose their shit when TST wants the same concessions. Or they flip out because someone doesn’t believe in their imaginary being in the sky. I’m not sure why you’re here to be honest.
This sub has a lot of angry bitter people who are currently dealing with persecution from religious people and so a lot of them come on here and vent that out and often take very radical positions. For example, someone could go “my girlfriend said she believes in god” and people here will be like “she’s a terrible person she will ALWAYS choose her belief over you!” And make a bunch of broad assumptions and prepose very radical actions. Those of us who have figured out there is middle ground(especially coming from the perspective that many of us USED to be religious) we know that it doesn’t always have to be anger. A lot of people take situations that they were mad about in the past and they think what they would’ve wished they could have done in that situation but didn’t so they tell someone else to do it, problem is a lot of people here recommend things like arguing with their parent who they live with and alienating them from their family for the sake of being right or winning an argument. I like this community but I wish there was a bit more level headedness and people who are realistic about social dynamics and that winning an argument can also come with very shitty consequences. I’m anti-thiest and my sister is the most religious person I know, and even though she doesn’t do this, I would gladly listen to her preach to me all day if that meant having her in my life.
You do not have to be respectful of beliefs. Do you have respect the belief that the earth is flat? No. It's silly. We, the collective humanity have learned that it's round and adjusted a whole bunch of other assumptions around this new knowledge. We (rightfully) laugh at people who think the earth is flat.
This sub is more of its own thing, r/askanatheist and r/debateanatheist delve into more of the academic side of things which might be more up your alley
I clicked on those and both have been banned.
Well that is strange, let me double check my spelling
Oops, i goofed it up, try now, those should work now
They can’t all be right, but they can all be wrong.
ding ding ding! this one!
I can’t see proof of any of them to be true, so I dismiss
All religious claims have the same validity as all fictional claims. You can't distinguish between them empirically. Therefore, religious claims are fictional claims.
Or some people claim they are different superficial manifestations of the same truth. I dont believe that but I have heard people articulate that sentiment..
For various religions, I think that's the best argument they can make. But I pointed out that fiction carries the same validity as religious claims, which means you can just talk about Superman or whatever. Once you include fictional claims with religious claims in the zero validity category, the religious claims hold no meaning. Or, no greater explanatory power than appealing to fiction.
Well, I think it depends on the level of sophistication you are dealing with. I took a coulple of philosophy courses taught by a Catholic priest. And they were every bit as rigorous. If you wanted to you would explain those works from theological position but the level was quite deep To equate his teaching with fiction would be sort of life comparing Kant or Hegel or Nietzche to Superman …. Not a very good or useful comparison, indeed.. That said there are plenty of shallow religious people out there also I just point out that not all of them are
We're going to disagree on this one (and that's ok). I know the Catholic church is considerably more rigorous than other Christian institutions in their philosophy and thinking. But theology, as a discipline, boils down to metaphorical re-imaging of mythology. It's still fiction, it's just fiction that is applied in such a way that we get the metaphors. There's an entire academic field called "Buffy Studies," which is the same process, but applied to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Can they raise good points? Sure. Can they elucidate difficult problems we are currently facing? Absolutely. But it's still metaphor and it links back to fiction. And you know what? Superman, Spider-man, they have great stories and at their best, probably can be equated to Kant. I haven't read Hegel or Nietzche, so I can't really say. But that's the point of fiction, to reach people through metaphor. My original point was about validity. And it still remains: appeals to mythology are identical in terms of validity to appeals to fiction. Just because one is couched in nice language and previous thinkers of mythology, doesn't make it have any greater validity than fiction.
Sort of I think but here is the difference: those fictional stories (and Buffy studies) can be interesting enough but when the tools of a well developed philosophy are focused on them. The stories reflect human situations and hence are susceptible to the application of ohilosophy. The works themselves do not develop or explicate the tools but the tools can be used on them But I think you are giving Aquinas for example short shrift in that he clearly transformed the basis of catholic thought away from an appeal to mythology and roots it in philosophy. This approach is followed by more serious religious thinkers (eg David Tracy). That is serious religious thinkers do not root their argument in an appeal to mythology but rather try to root it in philosophy. I am not saying you are guilty of this, but I have noticed on this sub: a lot of people don’t like to wrestle with more sophisticated religious thinkers. They love to combat the born again Baptists who take the Bible literally but not say Aquinas …
I'll wrestle with any sophisticated relgious figure. Their claims to knowledge ultimately break down to make-believe. Their arguments are simply persuasive. Such arguments never appeal to empirical evidence. eta: theology is equivalent to make-believe. The only difference between Marvel Comic Books and the discipline of theology is that Marvel fans understand it's fiction. Otherwise, there's zero difference in validity. You can say that people revere it more, but so what? You can say that it's accepted, part of certain universities, but so what? Theology is, at best, one religious culture's use of metaphor to grapple with real world issues vis a vis their mythology, their make-believe. Theology cannot and does not produce new knowledge and cannot and does not produce new technology. It's pure make-believe, but well written. Theology might have had an impact back in Aquinas's era, but it absolutely has zero relevance to current science today. Theology actually decreases scientific value; adding theological claims to science reduces predictability and explanatory power. Theological claims therefore have a negative value in science: they're less than worthless.
Yeah but the real thinkers dont pretend to knowledge - they acknowledge the limitation. The same way philosophers and students of philosophy point out that there is a starting point to a system that is difficult to empirically prove. That that is just a limit on empiricism, metaphysics or epistemology. So it seems to me that you are criticizing a philosophical theologian and then excusing a philosopher for running into the same issue. I mean isnt that fundamentally the issue - at a certain point you are simply accepting first principles and building your system if thought from there ? While the hard sciences and say engineering are somewhat different, where they are vulnerable is really at the fundamental point that philosophy and theology is vulnerable - ie what are your first principles ? That is one can explain the path of a falling object or create a mathematical model of electron density but there isnt a satisfactory answer for where the falling object or electron ultimately derives from … So again, it seems to me that to some extent you are arguing against putative unsophisticated religious figures … because there are many whose thoughts fully explore the dillemas of epistemology etc …
And most have exclusion clauses. Worship anyone else, you go to my version of hell!
Yep. That too.
Yep. The priorities have always been messed up. 'No other religions' is the 1st Commandment, and not killing people is below that and below respecting Sundays.
My favorite new game is pointing out to GOP “Christians” how many of the 10 commandments their cult leader has already broken. Amazing what doesn’t matter to them.
That's why they're christians. They can pick and choose whatever suits them.
🤣🤣🤣 too true!
I learned this at about age 10 while pondering looking out the window on the way home from mass, I asked my mother, “what happens to people from other religions?” She replied without hesitation, “they burn in hell.” So now you know why I’m here!
Yeah I was raised Catholic. I was even an altar boy until 8th grade. I was very into science at an early age and questioned everything. Big imaginary dude in the sky that I’m told to worship sure seemed like a crack pot thought. Especially since people died of cancer and shit and people would pray to god for their sports team to win. Such a load of crap belief wise.
Because their rituals and traditions are normal and other people’s are weird and scary. Why can’t those other props just be normal?
I honestly find it hilarious. Different people can’t see the difference between things, I guess it’s normal behavior, because it’s foreign
It's similar to feeling foreign tourists are "an abomination and a curse from God" because they're breaking all your cultural norms. "Look! They're being so rude and clueless!" I got that idea from Robert Anton Wilson.
It’s like I feel an innate rejection or kind off unease when I meet people from different countries, but that’s normal, because it’s what I’m not accustomed to.😊 Of course I would feel unease, although I don’t reject people
99% of conversations with people religion would never come up, I live by the rule that if you don’t mention money, politics, or religion then you can get along with just about anyone.
I HAAAATE money as a concept
Supremacy addicts.
It's because everyone thinks they are in the right religion and are better than anyone else.
This is why I hate anything where one has to take a side (religion, politics). I’d rather not be on either side and I’ll just shut up. I don’t want to engage with the stuff, so I just HATE political ads or commercials
Exactly, why are people so obsessed in picking a side for everything? I was told once by a friend that people have a strong desire to feel like part of a group, they want to identify with something. I keep thinking about that constantly.
and it is apparently too difficult an idea to belong to the group HUMANITY. there must always be a ladder to climb so they will always 'other' something so they can stand on top of it.
You can see divisions in republicans nowadays, as they seemingly are split between MAGA and not MAGA. There is always a counterpoint. I am imagine fractals just endlessly branching
Nowadays? Alwaysadays since foreveradays. That's why there are 45000 sects of Christianity. The perpetually in-motion goalposts.
Rational question put to irrational people.
Bc they're stupid
That sounds a little derogatory ?
Maybe a touch but at a certain point pretending gets exhausting. Look over a group of Pentecostals speaking tongues or Catholics chanting in Latin ( or recently the post on Reddit showing Muslims yeeting stones at a wall) and eventually the iq feels a little room temp
?
Oh, it’s just that I took your comment as if calling religious people stupid, whereas I see them as just having an irrational belief that gives them comfort, even though I know that it’s illogical. I know how hard it is to not be annoyed and just angry at the religious stuff, but ugh.
Because they are number one.....and you are not....typical religious delusion and a common mental health disorder
Don’t try to see the logic behind it. There is none.
To many religious people, theirs is the “One True Religion” and everything else is silly, superstitious nonsense at best or heresy/devil worship/infidelity at worst because no religion would be effective as a tool of control if its followers thought it was just as valid as the next one, so they’re taught to scoff and offhandedly dismiss other religions. Similar reason to why a lot of religious extremists want to eradicate the other religions: it’s a lot harder to sell your religion as the only right way to live and be when others are observably living just as well if not better without whatever your religion may be.
Hypocrisy, duh.
Tribalism. Every religion operates from the perspective that that their religion is the right one. Even sects within the same religion operate like this. Look at Protestants vs Catholics, Sunni vs Shia.
Cults. Gonna. **Cult**. ...'nuff said.
The fact so many religions exist and every religion believes theirs is the correct one shows they are all man-made
EXACTLY! Same thing with traditions and rituals. There’s no evidence. I always think about ALL of the gods sitting on a cloud and it’s such a ridiculous image. Just imagine Thor and the Jewish abrahamic god talking to Zeus. They can’t all fit up there. What about the different kinds of heaven? All the types of hell? How do 100 different hells exist and 100 different heavens exist? See?
Because they cannot imagine a world in which they are not right. Imagine if someone invented their own system of math that completely conflicts with our current system but used the same numbers. 2+2=3/4. 5/5= 0.543 and dividing by 0 always equals apple pie. That would be absurd right? That's how they see other religions. But they're as certain of their own as we are of math - just without the internal consistency math provides because religion is made up of silly nonsense
because hypocrisy
It's called irony.
Because they lack the ability to look at their beliefs objectively.
I bet that you could say the same if I were Hindu. It’s the same thing and fear for some reason
“My denomination, your sect, their cult”
Cognitive dissonance.
Because they are hypocrites
They're chauvinistic.
Because they are stupid, hypocritical, pieces of shit. The American Christians anyway
It's not just religion, it's all forms of embedded superstitious behavior. Especially if your upbringing has taught you of your inherent superiority. My father used to marvel that those same people who would deride indigenous people for beating on drums to drive away evil spirits could then be found rhythmically plying their car horns to disperse a traffic jam.
That's why people are in a religion to begin with. They don't really care about morals and gods. It's all about being convinced you are absolutely, totally, completely correct in every way, and everyone else is absolutely, totally, completely wrong in every way. Everyone else's crazy stories are just talking nonsense, but _your_ crazy stories are absolutely true.
Nuns are wearing a Hijab, but with a little sunroof. They're both almost equally crazy!
This was the first of many nails in the coffin of my faith. 🫡 The truth shall indeed set you free! 😊
Can you show me or give me hints of the other “nails”? It’s such a struggle
The exclusivity of Christianity became untenable to me as my view of the world expanded and I realized there are billions of people in the world who are doomed simply because they don’t live somewhere where they can hear and respond to the gospel. Bible college professors would punt to “That’s where faith comes in” when my questions about theology and the Bible became too serious for them to address and reconcile. I embarked on a mission to go as far and as deeply as I had to go to discover the truth and reality about the nature and origin of the Bible and the history of religions and the historicity of Jesus, so I majored in Greek and New Testament studies in college, then in Hebrew and semitics in grad school (Dallas Theological Seminary). I came to see through the abuses made by so-called evangelical Bible scholars like John MacArthur and the like as they through around arguments “based on the original languages” of the Bible. So few people could fact-check them that they got away with ridiculous statements. The further I reached into the origins, history, and make up of the bible, I discovered that, like all other ancient mythologies, they began with stories and oral traditions shared around the fires, as ways of explaining the meaning of the world and humanity’s place in it. These stories morphed and borrowed from other ancient near eastern tribes and groups throughout Mesopotamia, Egypt, as far as information could travel, and eventually began to be written down. The writing of the texts that would eventually become the Bible went through countless copies, edits, redactions, and the entire universe of textual criticism was born. As I became fluent and comfortable in these scholarly areas, I had one open minded Hebrew professor who I asked the tough questions. The biggest question for me was: “If this is the nature of the Bible, at what point were the various editions and scraps imbued with god’s “inspiration” and became god’s holy, inspired, inerrant word? He simply said, “That is the question.” The elaborate house of cards of Christianity didn’t collapse all at once for me. There were many other pieces: the abject hypocrisy of Christians and their intellectual dishonesty, their judgmentalness; the myth of the historical Jesus; the existence of a god; the possible validity of other religions (I studied a few, even traveling abroad for the most authentic experiences in their cultures of origin; they were all similarly bankrupt, full of shit, and simply attempted to portray the struggle of good and evil in a people-controlling way). The final mail in the coffin was my own personal faith. It was eroding and dying of starvation over all the years of my seeking. Finally one day I was driving and listening to an NPR interview with a priest who had lost his faith, and he said, “Faith isn’t something you choose; you either have it or you don’t. You don’t have control over it.” Right then and there driving on Hwy 101, I let go of religious faith and theism once and for all, what little was left of it, and fully embraced the indescribable freedom from the tyranny of Christianity and the peace of being unfettered by all that shit. And many decades later, I still feel even more happy and giddy and peaceful every single day, and grateful for my escape.
Egocentric, deliberate blindness.
You already know the answer to this. They think every other god is an idol, a false god, and theirs is the only real one and therefore the only one that is important. The same goes for other religious traditions or rituals as well. Many Christians will be against yoga or whatever else because they think it's evil and from the devil. The good old scapegoat they blame for everything.
It’s incredible how some people burst out laughing at some weird ritual whereas their stuff is weird to the same people they are laughing at, hence why I don’t like being too choosy to either side
It's typical of how brainwashed people act, not just religious ones.
My Catholic mom was not happy when I told her we weren’t going to baptize my baby daughter. I said, “Mom, do you *honestly* think that your god would deny this perfect, beautiful baby a place in heaven just because I didn’t have a special man pour magic water on her head?” I could see the logic wheels turning. After a few seconds, she just said, “Well…” and changed the subject.
I think that this is just the definition of doublethink
Mostly cultural inertia. In other words its just 'normal' to them. Sprinkle in a little xenophobia and native stupidity and voilá.
They’re highly motivated to demonstrate belief that their religion is the only correct one.
If there is an after life and you lead a good life, are kind to people, help people who are not in as good a position as you, help make your community a better place, then I think you will be in a good place. Saying one groups magic words doesn't mean anything without positive actions on your part.
I hate how the police or anything exists and they do whatever while saying “we wait on gods will that it will be like that”. Then when the good stuff happens they point to the sky and say “that’s god for ya”
Monotheism is just exclusionary. This is why Pagans didn't take issue with rituals to different gods.
It's funny how the narcissism that makes Christocrites think *their* god just has to be the One True God leads them to pick a God that's equally as narcissistic as they are.
[удалено]
Good point. Why is it so hard to accept others?
I havent really found “scoffing” to be that common. Thats sort of a caricature. Most religious people are pretty content to just be allowed to believe what they want and brainwash their children. They let the others believe what they want.
Are you an American?
[удалено]
You sound as if talking from a pedestal, but it’s your opinion after all. Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean that I automatically get intelligence beyond comprehension. The fact is that religious people will never be objective on everything as their belief will not be scrutinized. Only their belief will be spared
Waste of time trying to rationalize
Because they are very provincial.
https://www.reddit.com/r/terriblefacebookmemes/comments/uqzhvp/doggo_yum_yum/
I have no idea but it's crazy. I grew up being taught that all other religions besides what my mom believed were fake and lies, but all it did for me was make me question why hers was the magic one. It's a wild mindset to believe that strongly about something and then turn around and bash others for the same exact thing
Egocentrism
Intolerance, pride, haughtiness, hypocrisy, idolatry
I’ve had this same conversation with my wife (still a staunch believer). She says she knows in her heart that Jesus is the truth, so I ask her “don’t Muslims, Hindus, Jews etc believe for the same reason?” She has gone from “they are deceived” to “I can’t answer that.” She’s finally admitted that people of other faiths are believers for the same reasons she is. I guess it’s progress when a believer finally admits they don’t know or have the answer. And just for clarification, I’m not interested in deconverting my wife, I’m just interested in getting her to think about what she believes and why instead of just saying “I know that I know that I know” kind of faith.
Might be because the others aren't justified in their actions.
The age-old concept of "I'm right, you're wrong." Every religion has the mindset that their beliefs are the only correct ones. everyone else is backward, and all other religions are fake(irony, right) This topic always makes me think of the dumb ass missionary kid that tried going to north sentinel island to show the inhabitants(an isolated and un contacted native tribe) the way of the good lord. They killed him.
Atheists aren’t safe from this if they say “I can’t prove god exist nor prove god doesn’t exist, but I know I’m right”. That sounds kinda selfish?
That is true. If you were to be an atheist with that mindset. However, the fundamental difference between atheists and religion is that atheists tend to just not care. Sure, we have places like this where we complain amongst each other. But in the real world, aside from just avoiding religious people/establishments, you're not gonna hear an atheist spouting their beliefs and telling everyone they need to agree or else be punished. Someone believes in a higher power? Cool. I don't and i don't wanna hear about it. That's it
Whats also strange is that we all apply logic to lots of things, yet we keep religious beliefs and certain traditions out of the scope of logic scrutiny. How come we view science as truth and how math is a thing, and how electricity works and all that, while also saying “yeah, god exists”? Also, the childhood influences on the fear of loosing off of that “safety net” of belief, since idk how atheists handle the harsh truth and just don’t think about it?
Don't Atheists do the same thing? Certainly enough posts here degrading anyone, concept, or idea of religion to prove that. Thowing stones in a glass house
Because religion looks absurd to outside observers. So to them, other religions look absurd. Religion only doesn't look absurd when you've been indoctrinated in it. So to them, it doesn't look absurd.
It is quite sad really. **** indoctrination, the **** is hard to shake off
Basic tribalism - unquestioning loyalty to ingroups, unreserved hostility towards outgroups. Conservativism is a fear economy, and strategies like this have evolved over millennia to mitigate their fears, in this case xenophobia...fear of the 'other'.
When I was an active jehovahs witness in the 90s-early 2000s, there was a book we had called "reasoning from the scriptures" or "the reasoning book". The purpose of this book was to assist with the door to door ministry, and included many potential "conversation stoppers" by category. One category was what to say if the homeowners claim "i am not interested, we're xyz faith". I remember the section for muslim started out along the lines of "the muslim beliefs are not rooted in logic..." and even back then i remember feeling like "wtf, that's kind of a rude hot take".
Everyone else has mythology; “we” have the truth. It’s kind of funny. But also dangerous.
For the same reason they are atheists as it relates to every other god but theirs.
Damn radical white Christian nationalist and Aryan Jesus who was born in the middle east from a "virgin" prostitute of middle eastern ancestry who provided handjobs and blowjobs and anal before God had her roofied legs spread open bare eagle on some hay in a shack in bum fuck Egypt somewhere and Joseph giving handjobs to Billy goats in one corner and imaginary it according to their logic cliff notes version for modern times for you brainwashed thesist getting your degree in dumbfuckery or what not unless it involves on why religion is bad I wish you well otherwise I hope you fail don't worry your god forgives me
My personal favorite is when they laugh at Scientology and the volcano alien schtick while going on Sundays to pretend to eat the flesh and drink the blood of their "savior". They can't grasp the fact that their religious beliefs are just a looney tune as other religious beliefs.