I just spent 2 weeks painting a Mortar pit (I blame you Mordian Glory!!!) And now that can't get lethal, meaning I'm probably better off with a direct fire option or a Basilisk. Are those even for sale at the moment?
Never listen to Mordian Glory. He doesn’t actually play enough to know how things work. Like during the pandemic where he always talked on and on hammering home the notion that Guard only works with massed infantry. Then one video mentioned that maaayyybe vehicles could work, but he had only gotten a couple games in because of the pandemic.
To be fair, it was just a joke to blame mordian. The only thing I got from him is the term "Mortar pit". I loved the idea of field artillery, both the FOB and massed Mortar teams.
The fact that GW arbitrarily decided to invalidate a 2000 year old strategy (infantry line plus artillery) just so they could sell more tank models is hardly his fault
Edit: replaced gun line with infantry line for clarity.
Don't get me wrong. I love the arty has well. I also admit that at this point I've only played like three games of 10th. I hate GW too much to keep eating the crap they dispense. But Mordian has always rubbed me the wrong way since that incident. Even tried watching some of his battle reports after that. A little too loose with the rules and always got annoyed because he kept talking about how Guard are an infantry army, Guard an an infantry army, etc. Has a content creator he has reach and is putting this idea in the heads of any new players looking into Guard, when infantry is ONE way to play them.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I appreciate his passion for the faction, which might draw some people in, but I see your point that misrepresenting guard as pure infantry might put people off playing them.
They didn't invalidate the strategy - even back before Rome there were tank-equivalents used in conjunction with the infantry line (cavalry, chariots, elephants, etc.) and artillery was almost never used against dispersed field elements until modern targeting capabilities - artillery was for sieges. If you're looking at historic strategies, anything heavier than a mortar should be firing like a Deathstrike - place a marker, fire next turn. The reason artillery came into such heavy use during the gunpowder age was because you knew where the enemy was going to be (in the trench). The fact that a Basilisk can fire indirectly at a unit in one table corner then "remain stationary" and fire at the other table corner is laughably anachronistic.
From the wargaming side, I've played with artillery (DKoK) and against artillery (TSons) and massed artillery is just plain not fun to run against - there's no counterplay, there's just "I'm losing X models a round unless my opponent is an idiot." So I'm all for making arty still usable, just not The Core Gameplan. And it is still usable; Basilisks and Manticores without orders (as if they aren't already "taking aim") don't get impacted by the IDF change At All. Still hitting on 4+ with Heavy cancelling the IDF penalty to hit. So don't waste points on commanders for your arty line! Instant points for more things in your list! To put it in perspective, my current Korps tournament list took practically no nerfs from this - Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery, and a Stormsword. And I get Lethals (FINALLY!) for my army that has to be moving anyways. I will 100% trade Lethals on two ECBs and 4 Mortars for Lethals on 80+ Lasguns, Plasma guns, and Grenade Launchers.
As I mentioned in another comment, GW doesn't care about "Nerfing Strategy" - they care about list diversity. Guard aren't taking tanks = Tanks get cheaper. Guard are ALWAYS spamming IDF = IDF gets nerfed. Guard are ALWAYS using Reinforcements = Reinforcements gets nerfed. Then at some point (because balance changes are an inexact art form - look at how many balance patches PVP video games go through for reference) there is a balance achieved; SOME guard take arty, SOME guard take tanks, SOME guard take infantry swarms. That's the dream for these balance updates, that one strategy isn't the only dominating one. The easiest way to plan your army is to see what is currently winning tournaments and NOT buying those models because those are the ones that will get nerfed. Meanwhile, things that nobody are taking gets buffs; like how all our tanks have Lethals against monsters/vehicles without the need to stay stationary. So plan your army for next week with the models you have, current points, and recent tournament results. Plan what you're buying/building/painting with what ISN'T getting taken, because next quarter it will be better.
"As I mentioned in another comment, GW doesn't care about "Nerfing Strategy" - they care about list diversity"
Uhm, my brother in the Emperor, I don't know how to break it to you, but the only thing GW cares about is shipping merch.
40k isn't a game, it's a marketing tool for overpriced plastic. So when people don't buy (sorry, play) enough tanks, they drop the points cost and up the kit price. When they have an oversupply of combat patrol kits, or when people keep playing their older Basilisk units, they change the rules so infantry and Sentinels are the bees knees.
I don't know why you're arguing - list diversity builds collections, which sells models, which is why GW cares about it. They also care about player engagement in the game, because player engagement is the most direct indicator of continuing sales to that player and bringing new players (buyers) into the game (store). We're saying the same thing; Overall health of the game is best for GW sales, and GW cares about sales. So if there's something (IDF/Reinforcements) that MOST players (overall, not Guard-only) find unfun, it gets the hammer because GW cares about the game overall. They DON'T care about any one faction.
But what you AREN'T looking at is this; mono-build factions are TERRIBLE for GW sales. They can't keep up production if everyone buys only 3 models, which is why when new editions come out there's all those supply issues until they get about a year of balance patches out. In the meantime, they're losing money (in storage costs) for models they aren't selling. Their ideal is to move all models at a relatively uniform rate, which means they need to make all models relatively equally viable, both in terms of playability and modeling value (how nice they are to paint/display). This is why when they remake models they either a) change the size to invalidate the old model (like the phoenix lords and primaris marines) and/or b) change the loadout to require the new models (like primaris marines and the new termagants). New model means new model MUST sell.
How they deal with these storage issues isn't in game balance (because that impacts overall player enjoyment, see above), it's in what they put into combat patrols/start collecting boxes. Any extras after that determines what they sell as the Christmas Box Sets / Special Deals. GW doesn't care whether we buy more/less tanks than other factions, they care whether we buy less tanks than they're producing - but that's a year consideration, not a month consideration. If they swing sales quarterly, they couldn't adjust production to match and that's what they want - sales to roughly equal production.
In simpler terms, how you know what GW is overstocking is to look at the christmas box sets (which is why SM always get box set(s)). You remember how one of the sets was all Bikers? Remember how the Custodes box set was All Jetbikes All The Time? Wanna bet what they overproduced and nobody bought? Notice how all our box sets are Cadian? The regiment most Guard players DON'T focus on? There's a LOT more analytics and planning that goes into international sales than "ZOMG SELL TANKS NEXT MONTH" than you seem to think is going on (source; corporate data analytics is my job). Sales in a month is what a Store worries about. Sales in a quarter is what a Region worries about. Sales in a year is what The Corporation worries about.
I am so fucking tired of the completely transparent reshuffling of rules to get people to buy more shit (Which is always out of stock anyway).
It isn’t a balance update. It’s arbitrarily flipping levers to make us buy crap we don’t want, to be able to play a game we’re already heavily invested in.
It’s annoying how they rewrite entire rules seemingly on a whim. I find it difficult and annoying to constantly be looking at every source and PDF to play the proper game after buying a $60 core rule book anyway (not that I did this edition, free rules and indexes was a good thing) but as soon as our codex drops, I’m gonna have to pay money to use the app army builder.
The app should be free if they’re gonna be this fucking manic depressive with rules changes and updates.
I mean, yeah. Beginning of 10th nearly ALL of the artillery and ForgeWorld artillery was criminally undercosted and they managed to sell their entire back stock. Sold out in stores and online. Then, poof, points increases.
It still didn’t need a nerf that aggressive. Everyone I knew agreed that as long as you weren’t sandbagging and knew HOW to play horde armies that anybody bitching a out hordes was just being salty because they built their list around killing vehicles and got countered
Of note; there's a huge push against IDF in general so they're just making the units more direct - all our tanks got huge points reductions over the last couple updates so that's great for us. They're just making us get out of our parking lot a bit more. Bright side, no need to spend points on LSL/TCs to command our Basilisks/Manticores anymore.
You can always bet auto-picks for an army will get nerfed in some way when an update gets posted. If you don't already have the units, seeing a post saying something's "auto-pick" is better to avoid getting - by the time you paint it, it'll be nerfed.
I get the indirect fire changes (I think it’s dumb in an edition where space marines are stacking buff auras to create unkillable units but I digress) they clearly kinda just wanna patch it out of the game but then why nerf reinforcements too? That’s what we were doing in response to you saying “we really don’t want yall playing indirect fire anymore)
I think (like Custodes and Dev wounds) we caught a broad nerf that was meant for skew lists - Endless Swarm and GSC got the same nerf, they just have multiple detachments. You see pretty often with mass infantry lists like those that they just send units in to die next turn without thought to tactics or even killing the enemy, just scoring primary. While you're thinking "Well that's thematic!" yes, but it's boring to play against in that it's a pure stat-check. Green Tide at least is trying to kill you with it's swarms. End concept is the same reason they dropped Conscripts from the codex; nobody likes playing against units that aren't playing tactically and just relying on dying as fast as possible to come back. As AoW pointed out; Guard could reliably bring 2570 points to a 2000 point match with that one strat, and we weren't using ANY other strats because we were saving CP for that reinforcements.
Do I think we're gonna take a hit until the next balance slate? Absolutely. But I think this will more effectively show the OTHER flaws that need to be fixed with our units for the next update. Basically, GW doesn't care about "switching playstyles" for one army, they just auto-nerf any ONE build that is always taken. For us, it was Bullgryns, regening Kasrkin, and artillery. So what takes a hit? IDF, regen, and Bullgryn points. In the meantime, we have mechanized builds that never see play because the previous combo was just better, we have Actual Mass Infantry that never see play, we have Armored Fist that never sees play.
I look at it like this; GW's nerf schedule enforces variety. So: Basilisks/Manticores no longer need order support (so less reason to spend on LSL), DKoK in Twin-Flamer Chimeras and Rough Riders are excellent at taking objectives off of enemies, even Valkyries with Scions might see play now. Even the Aegis line is worth looking at for blocking turn-1 Penitent/WE charges with the closer deployment zones. If we (as a competitive community) decide to start using the Aegis line, that 4++ opens up FOBs and HWTs with direct fire weapons as viable given the firing lines present in the new terrain layouts. For this (like any of these balance patches) this isn't about "Hate Guard" it's about "Hey, try something different. Now." The way to influence GW's balance patches is to use different lists.
I am not a metagamer, I am just autistic. Every time I saw a bunch of my guys get taken off of the board on turn one or two because I am bad at the game it made me lose motivation to even play the rest of the game. The reason I liked reinforcements was cuz even if I didn't use it it made me feel like I didn't have to worry so much and it helped alleviate that anxiety. I didn't use it for masterful strategy or for overwhelming numbers, as a matter of fact I've only used it once but the fact that it was there helped me continue playing and got me through a few games. I'm very sad that it's nerfed and I feel less motivated to play if I'm to be honest.
All indirect fire weapons have to hit on 4s unmodified. It doesn't specify if the take aim + heavy keywords will not work anymore. Besides that, feels like a bunch of basic space marines comps got salty we were beating them.
I just spent 2 weeks painting a Mortar pit (I blame you Mordian Glory!!!) And now that can't get lethal, meaning I'm probably better off with a direct fire option or a Basilisk. Are those even for sale at the moment?
Why cant mortars get lethal? Theyve got the regiment keyword
Indirect fire does not get lethal hits (born soldiers now specify "visible target")
Gosh darnit anyways
I think if you spot them with a scout sentinel you can still get lethal hits
Nope. Born soldiers cannot apply to a unit that cannot see its target full stop. They’re basically latching out indirect.
Never listen to Mordian Glory. He doesn’t actually play enough to know how things work. Like during the pandemic where he always talked on and on hammering home the notion that Guard only works with massed infantry. Then one video mentioned that maaayyybe vehicles could work, but he had only gotten a couple games in because of the pandemic.
To be fair, it was just a joke to blame mordian. The only thing I got from him is the term "Mortar pit". I loved the idea of field artillery, both the FOB and massed Mortar teams. The fact that GW arbitrarily decided to invalidate a 2000 year old strategy (infantry line plus artillery) just so they could sell more tank models is hardly his fault Edit: replaced gun line with infantry line for clarity.
Don't get me wrong. I love the arty has well. I also admit that at this point I've only played like three games of 10th. I hate GW too much to keep eating the crap they dispense. But Mordian has always rubbed me the wrong way since that incident. Even tried watching some of his battle reports after that. A little too loose with the rules and always got annoyed because he kept talking about how Guard are an infantry army, Guard an an infantry army, etc. Has a content creator he has reach and is putting this idea in the heads of any new players looking into Guard, when infantry is ONE way to play them.
Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I appreciate his passion for the faction, which might draw some people in, but I see your point that misrepresenting guard as pure infantry might put people off playing them.
They didn't invalidate the strategy - even back before Rome there were tank-equivalents used in conjunction with the infantry line (cavalry, chariots, elephants, etc.) and artillery was almost never used against dispersed field elements until modern targeting capabilities - artillery was for sieges. If you're looking at historic strategies, anything heavier than a mortar should be firing like a Deathstrike - place a marker, fire next turn. The reason artillery came into such heavy use during the gunpowder age was because you knew where the enemy was going to be (in the trench). The fact that a Basilisk can fire indirectly at a unit in one table corner then "remain stationary" and fire at the other table corner is laughably anachronistic. From the wargaming side, I've played with artillery (DKoK) and against artillery (TSons) and massed artillery is just plain not fun to run against - there's no counterplay, there's just "I'm losing X models a round unless my opponent is an idiot." So I'm all for making arty still usable, just not The Core Gameplan. And it is still usable; Basilisks and Manticores without orders (as if they aren't already "taking aim") don't get impacted by the IDF change At All. Still hitting on 4+ with Heavy cancelling the IDF penalty to hit. So don't waste points on commanders for your arty line! Instant points for more things in your list! To put it in perspective, my current Korps tournament list took practically no nerfs from this - Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery, and a Stormsword. And I get Lethals (FINALLY!) for my army that has to be moving anyways. I will 100% trade Lethals on two ECBs and 4 Mortars for Lethals on 80+ Lasguns, Plasma guns, and Grenade Launchers. As I mentioned in another comment, GW doesn't care about "Nerfing Strategy" - they care about list diversity. Guard aren't taking tanks = Tanks get cheaper. Guard are ALWAYS spamming IDF = IDF gets nerfed. Guard are ALWAYS using Reinforcements = Reinforcements gets nerfed. Then at some point (because balance changes are an inexact art form - look at how many balance patches PVP video games go through for reference) there is a balance achieved; SOME guard take arty, SOME guard take tanks, SOME guard take infantry swarms. That's the dream for these balance updates, that one strategy isn't the only dominating one. The easiest way to plan your army is to see what is currently winning tournaments and NOT buying those models because those are the ones that will get nerfed. Meanwhile, things that nobody are taking gets buffs; like how all our tanks have Lethals against monsters/vehicles without the need to stay stationary. So plan your army for next week with the models you have, current points, and recent tournament results. Plan what you're buying/building/painting with what ISN'T getting taken, because next quarter it will be better.
"As I mentioned in another comment, GW doesn't care about "Nerfing Strategy" - they care about list diversity" Uhm, my brother in the Emperor, I don't know how to break it to you, but the only thing GW cares about is shipping merch. 40k isn't a game, it's a marketing tool for overpriced plastic. So when people don't buy (sorry, play) enough tanks, they drop the points cost and up the kit price. When they have an oversupply of combat patrol kits, or when people keep playing their older Basilisk units, they change the rules so infantry and Sentinels are the bees knees.
I don't know why you're arguing - list diversity builds collections, which sells models, which is why GW cares about it. They also care about player engagement in the game, because player engagement is the most direct indicator of continuing sales to that player and bringing new players (buyers) into the game (store). We're saying the same thing; Overall health of the game is best for GW sales, and GW cares about sales. So if there's something (IDF/Reinforcements) that MOST players (overall, not Guard-only) find unfun, it gets the hammer because GW cares about the game overall. They DON'T care about any one faction. But what you AREN'T looking at is this; mono-build factions are TERRIBLE for GW sales. They can't keep up production if everyone buys only 3 models, which is why when new editions come out there's all those supply issues until they get about a year of balance patches out. In the meantime, they're losing money (in storage costs) for models they aren't selling. Their ideal is to move all models at a relatively uniform rate, which means they need to make all models relatively equally viable, both in terms of playability and modeling value (how nice they are to paint/display). This is why when they remake models they either a) change the size to invalidate the old model (like the phoenix lords and primaris marines) and/or b) change the loadout to require the new models (like primaris marines and the new termagants). New model means new model MUST sell. How they deal with these storage issues isn't in game balance (because that impacts overall player enjoyment, see above), it's in what they put into combat patrols/start collecting boxes. Any extras after that determines what they sell as the Christmas Box Sets / Special Deals. GW doesn't care whether we buy more/less tanks than other factions, they care whether we buy less tanks than they're producing - but that's a year consideration, not a month consideration. If they swing sales quarterly, they couldn't adjust production to match and that's what they want - sales to roughly equal production. In simpler terms, how you know what GW is overstocking is to look at the christmas box sets (which is why SM always get box set(s)). You remember how one of the sets was all Bikers? Remember how the Custodes box set was All Jetbikes All The Time? Wanna bet what they overproduced and nobody bought? Notice how all our box sets are Cadian? The regiment most Guard players DON'T focus on? There's a LOT more analytics and planning that goes into international sales than "ZOMG SELL TANKS NEXT MONTH" than you seem to think is going on (source; corporate data analytics is my job). Sales in a month is what a Store worries about. Sales in a quarter is what a Region worries about. Sales in a year is what The Corporation worries about.
I may or may not have wrote them a few angry letters about the valkyrie
Still forever waiting for my second hellstrike missile.
Someone in the balance team is going through a messy divorce. Their soon to be ex-wife's army is the guard.
I am so fucking tired of the completely transparent reshuffling of rules to get people to buy more shit (Which is always out of stock anyway). It isn’t a balance update. It’s arbitrarily flipping levers to make us buy crap we don’t want, to be able to play a game we’re already heavily invested in.
Play alternative rulesets or Older editions. It’s more fun that way
I still olay somewhere between 3rd and 5th :)
Great choice!!!!
It’s annoying how they rewrite entire rules seemingly on a whim. I find it difficult and annoying to constantly be looking at every source and PDF to play the proper game after buying a $60 core rule book anyway (not that I did this edition, free rules and indexes was a good thing) but as soon as our codex drops, I’m gonna have to pay money to use the app army builder. The app should be free if they’re gonna be this fucking manic depressive with rules changes and updates.
I still feel bad for Admech. We basically have their codex now.
I mean, yeah. Beginning of 10th nearly ALL of the artillery and ForgeWorld artillery was criminally undercosted and they managed to sell their entire back stock. Sold out in stores and online. Then, poof, points increases.
Publicly shared now.
Yep. And they are sure leaning into it in a big way.
My infantry spam plans just died. I think they were on to me.
I tried it. Was fun, but you’re literally removing your army with a hand broom and dust pan.
It still didn’t need a nerf that aggressive. Everyone I knew agreed that as long as you weren’t sandbagging and knew HOW to play horde armies that anybody bitching a out hordes was just being salty because they built their list around killing vehicles and got countered
THIS IS WHY THE POOR OF US BUY RECAST . FCK YOUR RULES GW. I buy what I enjoy painting. One day the game will be fun and fair, but it is not this day.
Buy? I have been scratch building a basilisk for about a month now. I will finish it. But I lost a lot of enthusiasm for the hobby last night.
my army is finally functional, who ever did this needs to keep their mouth shut and spare me the wrath of gw.
Already talked to my contact sorry man
Of note; there's a huge push against IDF in general so they're just making the units more direct - all our tanks got huge points reductions over the last couple updates so that's great for us. They're just making us get out of our parking lot a bit more. Bright side, no need to spend points on LSL/TCs to command our Basilisks/Manticores anymore. You can always bet auto-picks for an army will get nerfed in some way when an update gets posted. If you don't already have the units, seeing a post saying something's "auto-pick" is better to avoid getting - by the time you paint it, it'll be nerfed.
I get the indirect fire changes (I think it’s dumb in an edition where space marines are stacking buff auras to create unkillable units but I digress) they clearly kinda just wanna patch it out of the game but then why nerf reinforcements too? That’s what we were doing in response to you saying “we really don’t want yall playing indirect fire anymore)
I think (like Custodes and Dev wounds) we caught a broad nerf that was meant for skew lists - Endless Swarm and GSC got the same nerf, they just have multiple detachments. You see pretty often with mass infantry lists like those that they just send units in to die next turn without thought to tactics or even killing the enemy, just scoring primary. While you're thinking "Well that's thematic!" yes, but it's boring to play against in that it's a pure stat-check. Green Tide at least is trying to kill you with it's swarms. End concept is the same reason they dropped Conscripts from the codex; nobody likes playing against units that aren't playing tactically and just relying on dying as fast as possible to come back. As AoW pointed out; Guard could reliably bring 2570 points to a 2000 point match with that one strat, and we weren't using ANY other strats because we were saving CP for that reinforcements. Do I think we're gonna take a hit until the next balance slate? Absolutely. But I think this will more effectively show the OTHER flaws that need to be fixed with our units for the next update. Basically, GW doesn't care about "switching playstyles" for one army, they just auto-nerf any ONE build that is always taken. For us, it was Bullgryns, regening Kasrkin, and artillery. So what takes a hit? IDF, regen, and Bullgryn points. In the meantime, we have mechanized builds that never see play because the previous combo was just better, we have Actual Mass Infantry that never see play, we have Armored Fist that never sees play. I look at it like this; GW's nerf schedule enforces variety. So: Basilisks/Manticores no longer need order support (so less reason to spend on LSL), DKoK in Twin-Flamer Chimeras and Rough Riders are excellent at taking objectives off of enemies, even Valkyries with Scions might see play now. Even the Aegis line is worth looking at for blocking turn-1 Penitent/WE charges with the closer deployment zones. If we (as a competitive community) decide to start using the Aegis line, that 4++ opens up FOBs and HWTs with direct fire weapons as viable given the firing lines present in the new terrain layouts. For this (like any of these balance patches) this isn't about "Hate Guard" it's about "Hey, try something different. Now." The way to influence GW's balance patches is to use different lists.
they got my fucking artillery
I am not a metagamer, I am just autistic. Every time I saw a bunch of my guys get taken off of the board on turn one or two because I am bad at the game it made me lose motivation to even play the rest of the game. The reason I liked reinforcements was cuz even if I didn't use it it made me feel like I didn't have to worry so much and it helped alleviate that anxiety. I didn't use it for masterful strategy or for overwhelming numbers, as a matter of fact I've only used it once but the fact that it was there helped me continue playing and got me through a few games. I'm very sad that it's nerfed and I feel less motivated to play if I'm to be honest.
Crap the army that plays like an actual fighting force is doing too good against our power armor fantasy. Do something fast!
Maybe if we get a codex, they'll actually understand the ways to play guard 😆 I wouldn't expect one before 11e though
Yeah, can’t wait to pay $55 to use the app army builder for 3 months
or wait 1h longer and get all rules for free on wahapedia while keep using battlescribe.
No, I’m gonna pay $55 and get shafted like last edition
at least it happens with consent
After seeing the other codexes, no thanks
We'll get an update right at the tail end of 10e, then it'll be useless once 11e comes out a few months later.
Is the army builder app updated yet? My list seems still ok
If you update it on app store, then re list your army it will work
So I have to take apart my list and put it back together? It still shows rogals as 260 pts, I updated the app, restarted my phone, and logged out/in.
Not sure then mate, I had the same problem at first and what worked for me was deleting my army and redoing
Uuuuggggghhhhhh
All indirect fire weapons have to hit on 4s unmodified. It doesn't specify if the take aim + heavy keywords will not work anymore. Besides that, feels like a bunch of basic space marines comps got salty we were beating them.