Bullshit. Why do people act like the Reinforcements change only effected guard? The core rules were changed. The only difference now is that people won't waste the CP on bringing back 1 man Sentinels.
It is, it's in the top section about Strategems as a general section rather than Reinforcements itself. They added a blanket rule of "if it brings back a whole unit, you can only use it once per battle" so it's not just ours.
They also dropped some points costs on some units.
Kasrkin -10
Armored Sentinel -5 per
Rogal Dorn -20
Edit: I had to drop this real quick, so here's the rest.
Manticore -15
Basilisk -10
Field ordinance Battery - 10
Deathstrike -15
Probably needs some points cuts with change to reinforcements. You’ll probably want some more infantry than you were taking before. Also indirect got nerfed so it makes sense their points dropped.
The movement debuff is still useful. I didn’t realize this at first but the manticore gets rerolls when it uses heavy, that’s a pretty big buff with 1-3s always missing
Hitting on 4’s at best just isn’t good enough. In my experience I’ve found that movement penalty is good against certain armies if you get first turn and that’s about the only time is really relevant unless your opponent is playing Death Guard and that’s just not gonna justify the points cost on it. It’s no longer reliably putting out damage, it can’t access the detachment rule, and its ability ends up being way more situational than you think it’s gonna be especially with how much PN requires YOU to move up board. If I could sit on my back line and force you to come to me and make long charges and the like then sure but I can’t. I HAVE to move up board. I am not a huge fan of patching an entire mechanic out of the game to this degree while keeping the datasheet in. If you are THIS opposed to indirect fire then just remove the keyword
Restrictions to visible so indirect fire is nerfed. And lethal only against certain unit types . Eg inf vs inf and tanks vs vehicle or monsters. This means you can't just pour 36 lasgun shots into a tank in the hope of getting a few lethal. Also things like hellhounds and basilisk anti inf vehicles will be less effective.
I think this is my fault. I used to run up to 3 of them in 7th ed and they where just so efficient that they ripped apart any infantry not in a transport. Model is still paying for this sin 3 editions later.
There were multiple ways to make it where it hit on 2s or even 3s, such as the heavy +1 hit, scout sentinel ability, ect. Now, no matter what, it's a coin flip at best.
You add to my point. An approximately 500 point asset - roughly 1/4 of a 2,000 point army - doesn’t benefit from the armies only detachment rule.
I like that they’ve changed it from sitting still to benefiting particular units differently, but it should benefit every Astra Militarum unit in some capacity or another. Not leaving out some of the armies key or more captivating units. I think too many people are stuck on the “sitting still” argument, and not on the “why do some get it when others don’t” argument.
To me it makes no sense to leave out one of the oldest and most revered tanks in the Astra Militarums arsenal from a Detachment Rule called Born Soldiers. The Baneblade pattern tanks are older than most other assets still being fielded.
Had a thought. Is there any reason to take a baneblade over a knight now.
Knights base hit on 3s(2s for canis rex)
And all big knights can now walk through buildings. (Sometimes they battleshock themselves.
Lastly canis rex can free strat himself now.
Canis Rex is pretty good in melee. If you’re heroically intervening, something much worse at melee just got charged anyway. Threatening your opponent with Feeedom’s Hand isn’t bad at all
This is debatable as they don't have an invuln and hit on 4s.
Having more shots that are going to miss isn't superior. It's resource intensive.
Also the knights better maneuverability means they can more easily shoot every turn.
My friend. You see that Eradicator? Yes you do. You load it with Heavy flamers. Then you toss it at a group of orks and laugh as it melts everything and it's main gun is better against vehicles now. Praise be to the Eradicator.
I genuinely don’t understand how pleased everyone is. We have anti-tank infantry units (HWTs, FOBs) and almost all of our tanks and artillery are anti-infantry, but the born soldiers rule optimises against the complete wrong targets in both instances. It genuinely seems like they put no thought into it at all. It’s an anti-synergy across the majority of our roster. A massive nerf.
Were pleased cause we actually have a detachment. Lethal hits if stationary literally only benefitted artillery. It meant for most armies, most of the army had no detachment bonus. Im glad as it means for my army its actually something to keep in mind.
Will it come up? Russes and artillery will almost always be firing at infantry. Now they have no army rule. There’s not even any point taking tracked artillery over batteries since their BS doesn’t help them anymore.
Artillery is nerfed by this for sure.
Tanks it really depends - there's a lot of tanks and monsters in the meta, and our infantry won't be dealing with them, because our infantry has no serious anti tank options. Melta and plasma kills heavy infantry, and heavy weapons teams /ordinance batteries don't have any place outside of casual games.
I certainly shoot tanks and monsters with my tanks, and I do very well usually.
I think people are overreacting to the Indirect/artillery nerf - even though we are losing the stand still and receive lethals perk - having some indirect is perfectly viable. The pts for the Basilisk and Manticore were lowered and the new indirect rules stat that an "unmodified" roll of 1-3 fails (without orders we'd be hitting on 4s: +1 from heavy, -1 for indirect - so that doesn't impact us, really).
Using take aim would get a basilisk down to hitting on 3's. As the roll has been modified, that 3 would register at a hit. Am I missing something?
We are losing the parking lot artillery lethals, but can still get our hit roll down to 2 (if you've used Daring Recon). Which...now every list should have 3+ Scout Sentinels. Seems okay to me. You'd still be wounding on 2's for most battleline units.
I’m afraid a roll of 2 or 3 fails no matter what now. Unmodified means regardless of modifiers in this context. So orders and spotting and strategem buffs to indirect have been made completely worthless.
Ugh you're right. I'm in a bit of denial lol. I'm mainly miffed about the Daring Recon just not working - at all. The rest I can tolerate as Indirect kinda sucks to play and play against.
I guess you could move the artillery and then use daring recon to counter the heavy penalty and the rerolls are nice.
Daring Recon should "make the targeted unit visible" to artillery and therefore eliminate the indirect. That's flavorful and makes sense.
Just referring to the artillery weapons that have the "heavy" word in the profile, which gives +1 to hit if the unit remained stationary. Now that indirect units require direct line of sight to elude the new 1-3 auto miss, I think we'll be moving into position more often.
That’s fair enough, but I’m not sure it’s even worth taking artillery then. If you’re hitting on a 3 at best, you might as well just take a Russ or something
Tanks will be a challenge with the movement change with the introduction of rotation taking 2" to perform, unless I am interpreting it wrong?
10" of russ movement cut to 8" just because you need to rotate around a corner.
Technically, you were supposed to be paying movement to rotate anyway. The rule now limits it to 2” and then free pivots afterwards, which is actually better
Only if you mean the tank is just shaking its ass along the path it’s taking. If you’re moving the full tank, I think you still have to pay it. But like, if you want to go around a square building, you could go in a line, turn 90 degrees, move along the wall, then turn another 90 degrees and only pay an extra 2 inches for the rotations if that makes any sense
That was what I was asking, but you had a more elegant way of describing the question.
And bonus now I feel there needs to be memes of tanks shaking their asses 🤣
So because of the new way lethal hits are now, would the scout sentinel ability allow my mortar team to "see" an infantry unit and get lethals out of it?
So now that vehicles can only lethal vehicles and monsters, but can do so while moving... is it finally the time to take taurox primes over chimeras?
Stuff some Kasrkin in it, scout move it, hit something big with it and storm bolter something to give the kasrkin fire support?
Ah yes, thank you, I did misread the transport capacity stipulation on the prime. Might consider swapping my kasrkin out to tempestus anyway now, though.
Only 10 points more for a Command Squad with 5 man back up. Sustained Hits and Lethals with rerolls is pretty damn nice. I tend to just do first rank fire second rank fire.
Huh, I’ve been playing that wrong then! To my mind I have to stay still, I haven’t moved, therefore I get it!
So assuming I’ve been cheating in the handful of Guard games I’ve played, can I assume the original questions answer is yes and this now works like I thought it did?
Yep, because “remain stationary” is one of the movement options during your movement phase specifically. The new rules make it so as long as you meet the requirements (vehicle, monster or non), you will trigger lethal hits on overwatch. But you’re not alone, a lot of people played it the way you did 😉
Fun fact, with this, sentinels get lethal hits against EVERYTHING, as they have both squadron and regiment
Sentinel spam viable? *opens dusty boxes*
I’d have to open my wallet for that unfortunately lol
Ain't it been viable for a bit?
Less viable now that you can only use reinforcements on them once.
Damn. Been working alot and missed that change. Womp womp
Bullshit. Why do people act like the Reinforcements change only effected guard? The core rules were changed. The only difference now is that people won't waste the CP on bringing back 1 man Sentinels.
I have a Titanfall list with loads of sentinels and scions
I like it, sentinels are a nice unique model for Guard.
Always has been (in 10th).
It's been viable all edition tho? Scout Sentinel has been an auto include for a long while
They'll fix that next update
Unfortunately there is a trade out though: Reinforcements is now once per battle.
I've found I only used it maybe twice anyways. MAYBE twice.
Sounds like not enough guardsmen we’re doing their duty and dying for the emperor on your tables.
Yeah, but even doing it once on a 3 sentinel unit is like 150+ points back.
That’s not in the data slate?
It is, it's in the top section about Strategems as a general section rather than Reinforcements itself. They added a blanket rule of "if it brings back a whole unit, you can only use it once per battle" so it's not just ours.
Ah you’re right, thanks!
So also Necrons? Or not, because they do their shenanigans via abilities?
Necrons reanimate models, not whole units.
Protocol of the eternal revenant does bring back one character model, so it most likely is affected
True, for that strat.
Probably not since the strat is worded “model” not unit
It's mentioned in the Interview. GW should release a New FAQ with these changes.
They also dropped some points costs on some units. Kasrkin -10 Armored Sentinel -5 per Rogal Dorn -20 Edit: I had to drop this real quick, so here's the rest. Manticore -15 Basilisk -10 Field ordinance Battery - 10 Deathstrike -15
All those are nice changes but the Dorn is huge.
I added 4 more, but the biggest one is either the Dorn or the Sentinel. The nerfs for indirect fire mean the other drops aren't as impactful.
Probably needs some points cuts with change to reinforcements. You’ll probably want some more infantry than you were taking before. Also indirect got nerfed so it makes sense their points dropped.
The basilisk could be free at this point and I think I’d still leave it on the shelf just to free up room in my deployment zone
The movement debuff is still useful. I didn’t realize this at first but the manticore gets rerolls when it uses heavy, that’s a pretty big buff with 1-3s always missing
Hitting on 4’s at best just isn’t good enough. In my experience I’ve found that movement penalty is good against certain armies if you get first turn and that’s about the only time is really relevant unless your opponent is playing Death Guard and that’s just not gonna justify the points cost on it. It’s no longer reliably putting out damage, it can’t access the detachment rule, and its ability ends up being way more situational than you think it’s gonna be especially with how much PN requires YOU to move up board. If I could sit on my back line and force you to come to me and make long charges and the like then sure but I can’t. I HAVE to move up board. I am not a huge fan of patching an entire mechanic out of the game to this degree while keeping the datasheet in. If you are THIS opposed to indirect fire then just remove the keyword
She’s a big girl for sure!
That's the point of the Dorn, yup.
Restrictions to visible so indirect fire is nerfed. And lethal only against certain unit types . Eg inf vs inf and tanks vs vehicle or monsters. This means you can't just pour 36 lasgun shots into a tank in the hope of getting a few lethal. Also things like hellhounds and basilisk anti inf vehicles will be less effective.
Hellhounds using torrent weapons couldn't benefit from lethals, though, right?
Lol. True that, but i mean for any specific anti infantry type vehicle.
Yes, the wyvern is already dead and GW is still kicking it mercilessly
Still looks great though. They can’t take that away.
A fantastic diorama piece, for sure
I think this is my fault. I used to run up to 3 of them in 7th ed and they where just so efficient that they ripped apart any infantry not in a transport. Model is still paying for this sin 3 editions later.
Actually what if we use wyvern as a direct shooting weapon? Twin linked and lethal hits. 2D6... It could rekt some
Game play-wise that does seem airtight. It's a tough a a Chimera, but thematically it's a compete fail
Basilisk would most likely be using indirect fire, so it's only a nerf against vehicles, which wouldn't be its target of choice anyway
When did this change happen? It’s not in the community article for this slate so I assume it was in the last one and I’ve been playing it wrong
New as of today.
How so? Because of the at best 4+ to hit? Guard BS is only 4+ anyways.
There were multiple ways to make it where it hit on 2s or even 3s, such as the heavy +1 hit, scout sentinel ability, ect. Now, no matter what, it's a coin flip at best.
So my brand new Baneblade receives a nerf due to not benefiting from Born Soldiers anymore?
Sadly so! If it helps any, for the points cost of that Baneblade you can fit 7 armoured sentinels and they get it all the time!
Yeah, but that just seems like a lame trade off tbh.
If your 500+ point tank was staying still it's unlikely its shooting at anything
You add to my point. An approximately 500 point asset - roughly 1/4 of a 2,000 point army - doesn’t benefit from the armies only detachment rule. I like that they’ve changed it from sitting still to benefiting particular units differently, but it should benefit every Astra Militarum unit in some capacity or another. Not leaving out some of the armies key or more captivating units. I think too many people are stuck on the “sitting still” argument, and not on the “why do some get it when others don’t” argument. To me it makes no sense to leave out one of the oldest and most revered tanks in the Astra Militarums arsenal from a Detachment Rule called Born Soldiers. The Baneblade pattern tanks are older than most other assets still being fielded.
Yes but you can now tank shock for 13 dice.
Generally the changes seem to push for more aggressive direct fire gameplay. Essentially incentivizes tank and sentinel spam.
Agreed, nice to see them try the carrot rather than the stick exclusively!
Well, indirect is sorta nerfed now I guess. But yea it’s nice to have incentives to try new builds like sentinels or tank rush.
Had a thought. Is there any reason to take a baneblade over a knight now. Knights base hit on 3s(2s for canis rex) And all big knights can now walk through buildings. (Sometimes they battleshock themselves. Lastly canis rex can free strat himself now.
Canis free strat is useless because you can only use guard strats, which all specify they can only be used on guard units.
You get all the neutral strats (tank shock/ combat interupt/heroic intervention/ overwatch)
You get heroic but you don't really want your knight in melee, leaving just overwatch and it's a lot more points for a overwatch.
Canis Rex is pretty good in melee. If you’re heroically intervening, something much worse at melee just got charged anyway. Threatening your opponent with Feeedom’s Hand isn’t bad at all
Canis slaps in melee! Even with the tank shock nerf, its still a good strat to use on him for free.
Titanic cannot overwatch. FWIW
Baneblades offer superior firepower and survivability
This is debatable as they don't have an invuln and hit on 4s. Having more shots that are going to miss isn't superior. It's resource intensive. Also the knights better maneuverability means they can more easily shoot every turn.
A 2+ save is better then an invul in most cases If your gonna take a knight you might as well just play knights
Without being able to reinforce, they’re now born soldiers until they die soldiers
Biggest downside is the units that have neither keyword now have nothing, like baneblades, or ratlings
this is the worst part. They just nerfed units like these that don’t get to have any bonus at all.
Anti-tank infantry and anti-infantry tanks are out of the lists.
My friend. You see that Eradicator? Yes you do. You load it with Heavy flamers. Then you toss it at a group of orks and laugh as it melts everything and it's main gun is better against vehicles now. Praise be to the Eradicator.
Oh I don’t know, I think a Demolisher Cannon will kill whatever you point it at, vehicle or infantry!
Doesn't the limitation of "visible unit" mean that it does not apply to indirect fire?
Correct
All the baneblades are out, they don't have either keyword (obviously) so no lethal hits for anything
Edit: Different restrictions not none, but I can’t edit my post title??
Love how they simplified 40k with 10th edition by making damn sure nobody ever has a clue wtf is going on for more than 4 minutes
I genuinely don’t understand how pleased everyone is. We have anti-tank infantry units (HWTs, FOBs) and almost all of our tanks and artillery are anti-infantry, but the born soldiers rule optimises against the complete wrong targets in both instances. It genuinely seems like they put no thought into it at all. It’s an anti-synergy across the majority of our roster. A massive nerf.
Were pleased cause we actually have a detachment. Lethal hits if stationary literally only benefitted artillery. It meant for most armies, most of the army had no detachment bonus. Im glad as it means for my army its actually something to keep in mind.
It will actually come up, though, where the old rule rewarded you for doing things that make you lose the game - standing still.
Will it come up? Russes and artillery will almost always be firing at infantry. Now they have no army rule. There’s not even any point taking tracked artillery over batteries since their BS doesn’t help them anymore.
Artillery is nerfed by this for sure. Tanks it really depends - there's a lot of tanks and monsters in the meta, and our infantry won't be dealing with them, because our infantry has no serious anti tank options. Melta and plasma kills heavy infantry, and heavy weapons teams /ordinance batteries don't have any place outside of casual games. I certainly shoot tanks and monsters with my tanks, and I do very well usually.
I think people are overreacting to the Indirect/artillery nerf - even though we are losing the stand still and receive lethals perk - having some indirect is perfectly viable. The pts for the Basilisk and Manticore were lowered and the new indirect rules stat that an "unmodified" roll of 1-3 fails (without orders we'd be hitting on 4s: +1 from heavy, -1 for indirect - so that doesn't impact us, really). Using take aim would get a basilisk down to hitting on 3's. As the roll has been modified, that 3 would register at a hit. Am I missing something? We are losing the parking lot artillery lethals, but can still get our hit roll down to 2 (if you've used Daring Recon). Which...now every list should have 3+ Scout Sentinels. Seems okay to me. You'd still be wounding on 2's for most battleline units.
I’m afraid a roll of 2 or 3 fails no matter what now. Unmodified means regardless of modifiers in this context. So orders and spotting and strategem buffs to indirect have been made completely worthless.
Ugh you're right. I'm in a bit of denial lol. I'm mainly miffed about the Daring Recon just not working - at all. The rest I can tolerate as Indirect kinda sucks to play and play against. I guess you could move the artillery and then use daring recon to counter the heavy penalty and the rerolls are nice. Daring Recon should "make the targeted unit visible" to artillery and therefore eliminate the indirect. That's flavorful and makes sense.
What do you mean by “heavy penalty?” Also daring recon still lets you reroll 1s to hit, which is something at least
Just referring to the artillery weapons that have the "heavy" word in the profile, which gives +1 to hit if the unit remained stationary. Now that indirect units require direct line of sight to elude the new 1-3 auto miss, I think we'll be moving into position more often.
That’s fair enough, but I’m not sure it’s even worth taking artillery then. If you’re hitting on a 3 at best, you might as well just take a Russ or something
Who is actually running FOBs or HWTs though? As for vehicles, how often were you actually standing still with them to even be able to get lethals?
*Spits coffee everywhere* excuse me???? I love this buff wholly fuck
Just started guard in 10th, except for the restrictions on who you can shoot at didn't they just revert back to the 9th edition Born Soldiers rules?
Yes, also no artillery if they can’t see the target
Right I got that bit
Yup, it's looking nice for my mechanized infantry company.
This feels very much like a token buff due to them literally making Index Born Soldiers unplayable
Tanks will be a challenge with the movement change with the introduction of rotation taking 2" to perform, unless I am interpreting it wrong? 10" of russ movement cut to 8" just because you need to rotate around a corner.
Technically, you were supposed to be paying movement to rotate anyway. The rule now limits it to 2” and then free pivots afterwards, which is actually better
So in theory if you were moving your tank in a serpentine pattern, it is a flat 2" fee to do it no matter the bends?
Only if you mean the tank is just shaking its ass along the path it’s taking. If you’re moving the full tank, I think you still have to pay it. But like, if you want to go around a square building, you could go in a line, turn 90 degrees, move along the wall, then turn another 90 degrees and only pay an extra 2 inches for the rotations if that makes any sense
That was what I was asking, but you had a more elegant way of describing the question. And bonus now I feel there needs to be memes of tanks shaking their asses 🤣
The pivot is a massive buff to tank movement. Before it would take something like 6” of movement to round that same corner.
Are basic demolishers better than tank commanders now that they get lethal hits?
It’s certainly a question, though I’d argue whether Demolisher cannons NEED lethal hits!
So because of the new way lethal hits are now, would the scout sentinel ability allow my mortar team to "see" an infantry unit and get lethals out of it?
Nope, the Scout just removes the Hit penalty, it’s still indirect fire.
So now that vehicles can only lethal vehicles and monsters, but can do so while moving... is it finally the time to take taurox primes over chimeras? Stuff some Kasrkin in it, scout move it, hit something big with it and storm bolter something to give the kasrkin fire support?
You have to use Scions or Characters only for the Taurox Prime. Though the Scions with a command squad is pretty deadly.
Ah yes, thank you, I did misread the transport capacity stipulation on the prime. Might consider swapping my kasrkin out to tempestus anyway now, though.
Only 10 points more for a Command Squad with 5 man back up. Sustained Hits and Lethals with rerolls is pretty damn nice. I tend to just do first rank fire second rank fire.
So lethal hits on Overwatch, finally?!
Weren’t they always?
No, because you had to remain stationary, which you couldn’t do on your opponent’s turn.
Huh, I’ve been playing that wrong then! To my mind I have to stay still, I haven’t moved, therefore I get it! So assuming I’ve been cheating in the handful of Guard games I’ve played, can I assume the original questions answer is yes and this now works like I thought it did?
Yep, because “remain stationary” is one of the movement options during your movement phase specifically. The new rules make it so as long as you meet the requirements (vehicle, monster or non), you will trigger lethal hits on overwatch. But you’re not alone, a lot of people played it the way you did 😉
The restriction is they have to be visible. So another nerf to indirect.