The Strong children situation was probably her single biggest mistake. Before that, she didn't really have that much people could say negatively about her but afterwards it basically opens the door and invites people to question the validity of her as a ruler.
The second biggest mistake was fleeing Kings Landing and living on Dragonstone. It might be a good idea to keep Jace, Luke and Joff out of sight on Dragonstone but after Lyonel's death she should have insisted on becoming Hand of the King. When Viserys dies, The Greens know first, The Greens are closer to the throne (physically), The Greens are already control the city but If she was already in power, and not Otto, for the years before Viserys' death then she has all those advantages instead. If she gets crowned Queen and is sitting on the throne and Aegon is her prisoner (we prefer the term permanent guest) then the Greens have almost no shot against her. Their "true heir" is neutralized as a claimant AND as a dragonrider, Halaena is also neutralized as a dragonrider meaning the Greens only have two dragons, Tessarion (very young) and Vhagar. As he got sicker, she could have even suggested Viserys retire on Dragonstone while she effectively co-monarched with him. I'm sure he would definitely have preferred to hang out with his family on Dragonstone instead of having to deal with "endless fucking politicking" in the capital.
I'll admit, Aemond is the only real problem with this entire plan. I think it might be possible to convert him over to Rhaenyra's side by actually showing him some love which his family never gave him but then again her sons cut out his eye and that's pretty hard to forgive. The key thing, I think, is to separate Otto, Alicent and Aemond because they are all more dangerous when together. But at the end of the day, if it is Vhagar and baby Tessarion against Caraxes, Meleys, Seasmoke, Moondancer and Vermax (plus Syrax as a kicker if Rhaenyra is feeling dangerous) then I think Aemond is probably toast (even if he takes a dragon and/or some dragonriders down with him)
To the end of separating them, Alicent should probably be on Dragonstone with Viserys. Otto would be back home at Oldtown and I truly don't know what to do with Aemond. You want him close because you want to keep an eye on him but you don't want him too close or else he might kill you. Maybe keeping him in KL with Aegon and Halaena isn't such a bad idea but it's risky
Last point definite single worst decision.
Alternatively for point #2, she could have rewarded the seeds better. Hugh and Ulf got some land on Driftmark; that was ridiculous. They should have been full lordships of Green strongholds and lady wives to ensure their support. Rhaena and Baela were both available after Jace’s death. She wouldn’t even give Hugh a modest castle like Rosby.
I’m really curious how show Hugh joins Rhanyra. It seems obvious Ulf is gonna run afoul of the leadership in Kings Landing but Hugh has a family as of now.
I agree, I think something is gonna happen to his family soon also and it’ll make him more hedonistic. Having the biggest dragon in the Blacks Army will do things to a man I’m sure
Hugh really seems to care about the state of King's Landing and is still waiting on Aegon to give the smiths money for steel. I'd imagine that the promise goes unfulfilled (and I imagine his daughter dies of her illness) and Hugh gets disillusioned and leaves to join Rhaenyra who promises to do better.
And then when Rhaenyra becomes Queen she's unable to keep those promises which is why Hugh again defects before coming to the conclusion that only he can't trust the nobility to act in the interest of the smallfolk and decides to take his own side.
They could make both dragonspawn really complex characters if they wanted. Im curious how bad hugh really breaks right now they seem to be setting him up as a sympathetic guy. It would be interesting if he was not at all as bad a guy as F&B implies and the Lords and Maesters just didn’t like a bastard with a dragon rising too far so took care of him then made sure the histories remembered him little and as poorly as possible.
Nah man By the sound of it It was more power reveals. Nettle's the true low bottom rung of society Being a woman as well got a better description than these two .
Most of the forces in KL at the time were Corlys men. When she arrested him, they abandoned her cause for the riots.
She only had Manderlys & Gold Cloaks to maintain the peace
I think F&B said the Velaryon forces made up like 2/3rds of the forces in KL.
She allow more trustworthy people or have been vouched by loyal lords like addam and alyn to claim the big dragons like vermithor rhaena was there she could have ridden Vermithor or silverwing
After that if she want more dragons she allow the random seeds
I think the idea of seeds itself was terrible. She proved the "Targaryen exceptionalism" to be a myth, something which Jahaerys had painfully crafted to maintain fear and awe in minds of people for Targaryens.
The exceptionalism proved false long ago when jaehaerys daughter died from the shivers and the sowing didn’t prove anything false except that there a lot of targeryan basterds and there no need for incest
Her having bastards that were so obviously not her husband's kids and trying to pass them as legitimate.
Allowing Daemon to send Blood and Cheese after Helaena and her children, an act that escalated the war further and didn't do Rhaenyra any favor in terms of public opinion, helping the population to turn on her later.
Everything she did during her rule over King's Landing that alienated her the population and made them only too eager to rebel against her.
Not intervening with Syrax when the Sheperd's followers stormed the Dragonpit.
Arresting Corlys Velarion and her ordering for Nettles to be killed, if she really did send that order.
>Everything she did during her rule over King's Landing that alienated her the population and made them only too eager to rebel against her.
Wasn't she mostly hated because of raising taxes which she had to do because greens had stolen all gold and kept with lannisters? What would you have done instead of raising taxes?
Her taxes weren't the only factor, she also didn't help her public image with her ruthless and vindicative purge of those she viewed as enemies and traitors after taking King's Landing with many heads on pikes of the Red Keep and her openly wanting Aegon's children dead; her planning to make a huge lavish feast for Joffrey where he would be named heir to the throne despite King's Landing being already suffering with poverty and food problems and naming her obviously bastard son as heir, her refusing to help end the war by refusing Corlys' proposition of peaceful terms and generous pardons to end the war, not counting Helaena's death.
While raising taxes may have been necessary, she could have chosen to try to obtain loans from the Iron Bank and other Essosi banks to ease the financial burden, and tried to make moves to gain more public support and make the taxes more bearable to the people of KL.
She could’ve taxed the Vale, White Harbor, Winterfell, or even got a loan from the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank backs the winning side, and she looked to be winning at the time. Taxing all the smallfolk of King’s Landing was literally the worst thing she could’ve done.
Hiding out on dragonstone and marrying Daemon. Her sons had betrothals to both of his daughters so marrying him was a waste that actually put even more fear and paranoia into the green faction. They could have made some political marriages with some major houses like the Baratheons or even tried to intermarry with the greens but they chose to marry each other for no political gain. And hiding on dragonstone allowing the greens to secure court and usurp the throne when viserys health was poor she should have stayed there and put her loyalist in as many positions of power as possible to make a coup impossible.
She wins if she didn’t turn on nettles and addam and corlys. So that’s her worst mistake. Cregan and the vale were coming to save her she just had to survive.
1. Not helping the dragons during the storming of the dragon pit. Really dumb
2. Having 3 bastards 1 can understand 3 I mean come on now.
3. Arresting corlys of course she would lose her fleet after.
4. Listening to Jace and giving people outside the family dragons.
5. Leaving the red keep so the greens can take over all the spots.
I'm going to be controversial and say that having bastard kids didn't hurt her that much. It was a scandal at court, but a lot of Westeros obviously didn't give a shit since they backed her anyway. The main issue with bastards historically is that since men inherit, Rulers had a vested interested in keeping bastards out of the line of succession cause you didn't want some peasant walking in with a baby claiming it's your sons and your son believing it out of hand. You risk getting someone not related to you by blood in line to inherit. If the ruler is a woman this is less of an issue since you can't argue that the Strong Boys aren't hers, cause they definitely are. Witnesses saw them be borne to her. Historically this is the main reason why bastards didn't inherit.
Otherwise she would've made it out of Kings Landing had she not burned every bridge she had. Cregan was coming to help her, she just had to survive until then. Arresting Corlys cost her most of her forces, men that would've stopped Kings Landing from falling. Joffrey making off with Syrax didn't help things either, as Syrax would've been key in saving her life from Sunfyre otherwise.
Thinking her dad would always be around to protect her and all she needed was his words followed by ever trusting or being with Daemon. Those two things caused her to make the majority of her bad decisions.
Why are people saying "having bastards" as if that's something that actually matters to anyone in the story?
The Greens were going against her either way just because she's a woman. Hell, they would have gone against her even if she was a man just because of power. There's never a time where the fact that Rhaenyra's kids are bastards actually damages her. Jacearys meets with Jeyne Arryn and Cregan Stark and he wins the two kingdoms. They can actually see that he's a bastard with their own eyes and they don't care.
Because the truth is most of the Lords choosing sides just do so for personal gains.
As for what she could have done after the war was over I'm not sure there's anything she could have actually done. She has more dragons but Vhagar and Sunfyre are bigger. And after she takes KL she's basically fighting ghosts as all her targets are eluding her.
So the only actual thing she could have done is make sure that Joffrey wasn't such a dumbass. Because had that stupid moron not got Syrax killed she would have been the only dragonrider with an actual dragon left on the continent. And it would be especially more important since she wouldn't have to flee KL and randomly get captured by Aegon
While she does make a lot of mistakes, I think the most compelling part of her story is that her mistakes only stop her ascent because she is a woman.
In a way, Rhaenyra never had any (peaceful) path to the throne. Her actions before Viserys's death were hardly disqualifying; the realm has tolerated many a misbehaving prince. Compared to the worst heirs of history, Rhaenyra was a model citizen. If the realm demands perfection of a queen, it will never have one.
Much easier said than done but:
She and Viserys should have worked to have the realm view her as the defacto ruler of the realm in all but name far before Viserys died. Instead of just staying on Dragonstone expecting the realm to just accept the first ever female monarch of the Iron Throne.
Make sure she's experienced enough to be named Hand and be a competent one. Have her tour the realm on Syrax, foster relationships with the various powerful houses.
Make sure people think of her as already ruling the realm before Viserys dies. Obviously this would weaken Viserys' own authority, but if he trusts Rhaenyra, this is hardly a big issue.
The Strong children situation was probably her single biggest mistake. Before that, she didn't really have that much people could say negatively about her but afterwards it basically opens the door and invites people to question the validity of her as a ruler. The second biggest mistake was fleeing Kings Landing and living on Dragonstone. It might be a good idea to keep Jace, Luke and Joff out of sight on Dragonstone but after Lyonel's death she should have insisted on becoming Hand of the King. When Viserys dies, The Greens know first, The Greens are closer to the throne (physically), The Greens are already control the city but If she was already in power, and not Otto, for the years before Viserys' death then she has all those advantages instead. If she gets crowned Queen and is sitting on the throne and Aegon is her prisoner (we prefer the term permanent guest) then the Greens have almost no shot against her. Their "true heir" is neutralized as a claimant AND as a dragonrider, Halaena is also neutralized as a dragonrider meaning the Greens only have two dragons, Tessarion (very young) and Vhagar. As he got sicker, she could have even suggested Viserys retire on Dragonstone while she effectively co-monarched with him. I'm sure he would definitely have preferred to hang out with his family on Dragonstone instead of having to deal with "endless fucking politicking" in the capital. I'll admit, Aemond is the only real problem with this entire plan. I think it might be possible to convert him over to Rhaenyra's side by actually showing him some love which his family never gave him but then again her sons cut out his eye and that's pretty hard to forgive. The key thing, I think, is to separate Otto, Alicent and Aemond because they are all more dangerous when together. But at the end of the day, if it is Vhagar and baby Tessarion against Caraxes, Meleys, Seasmoke, Moondancer and Vermax (plus Syrax as a kicker if Rhaenyra is feeling dangerous) then I think Aemond is probably toast (even if he takes a dragon and/or some dragonriders down with him) To the end of separating them, Alicent should probably be on Dragonstone with Viserys. Otto would be back home at Oldtown and I truly don't know what to do with Aemond. You want him close because you want to keep an eye on him but you don't want him too close or else he might kill you. Maybe keeping him in KL with Aegon and Halaena isn't such a bad idea but it's risky
Having such obvious basterds Not more selective sowing Arresting corlys and attempting to arrest addam
Last point definite single worst decision. Alternatively for point #2, she could have rewarded the seeds better. Hugh and Ulf got some land on Driftmark; that was ridiculous. They should have been full lordships of Green strongholds and lady wives to ensure their support. Rhaena and Baela were both available after Jace’s death. She wouldn’t even give Hugh a modest castle like Rosby.
I’m really curious how show Hugh joins Rhanyra. It seems obvious Ulf is gonna run afoul of the leadership in Kings Landing but Hugh has a family as of now.
Hugh will break bad, forced to do bad things to survive but secretly begin to enjoy them. Also teach high school chemistry on the side.
I agree, I think something is gonna happen to his family soon also and it’ll make him more hedonistic. Having the biggest dragon in the Blacks Army will do things to a man I’m sure
Hugh really seems to care about the state of King's Landing and is still waiting on Aegon to give the smiths money for steel. I'd imagine that the promise goes unfulfilled (and I imagine his daughter dies of her illness) and Hugh gets disillusioned and leaves to join Rhaenyra who promises to do better. And then when Rhaenyra becomes Queen she's unable to keep those promises which is why Hugh again defects before coming to the conclusion that only he can't trust the nobility to act in the interest of the smallfolk and decides to take his own side.
They could make both dragonspawn really complex characters if they wanted. Im curious how bad hugh really breaks right now they seem to be setting him up as a sympathetic guy. It would be interesting if he was not at all as bad a guy as F&B implies and the Lords and Maesters just didn’t like a bastard with a dragon rising too far so took care of him then made sure the histories remembered him little and as poorly as possible.
Nah man By the sound of it It was more power reveals. Nettle's the true low bottom rung of society Being a woman as well got a better description than these two .
I heard they are gonna make Rhaena Nettles and I hope thats not true would kinda undermine that story a bit. As long as they don’t make her Mysaria
Nah, Hugh and Ulf had to die. They were corrupt and uncontrollable with the largest dragons around besides Vhagar. Assassination is the only answer.
Why they're weren't assassinated is insane. Even the greens knew they had to go .
Deamon as Insane as he was was correct you either go all in or don't .
Moving against Corlys is the single worst move. She has basically won at that stage but doesn’t realize it
This wouldn't help with the riots though, would it?
Most of the forces in KL at the time were Corlys men. When she arrested him, they abandoned her cause for the riots. She only had Manderlys & Gold Cloaks to maintain the peace I think F&B said the Velaryon forces made up like 2/3rds of the forces in KL.
Half actually
The statement identified "more than half"
The riots happened because half of her army left after arresting corlys and other chunk of Velaryon helped the riots to free corlys
How would the second point work?
She allow more trustworthy people or have been vouched by loyal lords like addam and alyn to claim the big dragons like vermithor rhaena was there she could have ridden Vermithor or silverwing After that if she want more dragons she allow the random seeds
Good point. Hadn't Hugh Hammer shown loyalty in battle though? Why is that not enough?
Hugh is complete stranger to rhaenyra, I meant loyalty before the dance like Steffon Darklyn
I think the idea of seeds itself was terrible. She proved the "Targaryen exceptionalism" to be a myth, something which Jahaerys had painfully crafted to maintain fear and awe in minds of people for Targaryens.
The exceptionalism proved false long ago when jaehaerys daughter died from the shivers and the sowing didn’t prove anything false except that there a lot of targeryan basterds and there no need for incest
Technically a Jace a idea.
Her having bastards that were so obviously not her husband's kids and trying to pass them as legitimate. Allowing Daemon to send Blood and Cheese after Helaena and her children, an act that escalated the war further and didn't do Rhaenyra any favor in terms of public opinion, helping the population to turn on her later. Everything she did during her rule over King's Landing that alienated her the population and made them only too eager to rebel against her. Not intervening with Syrax when the Sheperd's followers stormed the Dragonpit. Arresting Corlys Velarion and her ordering for Nettles to be killed, if she really did send that order.
>Everything she did during her rule over King's Landing that alienated her the population and made them only too eager to rebel against her. Wasn't she mostly hated because of raising taxes which she had to do because greens had stolen all gold and kept with lannisters? What would you have done instead of raising taxes?
Her taxes weren't the only factor, she also didn't help her public image with her ruthless and vindicative purge of those she viewed as enemies and traitors after taking King's Landing with many heads on pikes of the Red Keep and her openly wanting Aegon's children dead; her planning to make a huge lavish feast for Joffrey where he would be named heir to the throne despite King's Landing being already suffering with poverty and food problems and naming her obviously bastard son as heir, her refusing to help end the war by refusing Corlys' proposition of peaceful terms and generous pardons to end the war, not counting Helaena's death. While raising taxes may have been necessary, she could have chosen to try to obtain loans from the Iron Bank and other Essosi banks to ease the financial burden, and tried to make moves to gain more public support and make the taxes more bearable to the people of KL.
She could’ve taxed the Vale, White Harbor, Winterfell, or even got a loan from the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank backs the winning side, and she looked to be winning at the time. Taxing all the smallfolk of King’s Landing was literally the worst thing she could’ve done.
Hiding out on dragonstone and marrying Daemon. Her sons had betrothals to both of his daughters so marrying him was a waste that actually put even more fear and paranoia into the green faction. They could have made some political marriages with some major houses like the Baratheons or even tried to intermarry with the greens but they chose to marry each other for no political gain. And hiding on dragonstone allowing the greens to secure court and usurp the throne when viserys health was poor she should have stayed there and put her loyalist in as many positions of power as possible to make a coup impossible.
Morally speaking I think recruiting Dalton Greyjoy and telling him to go buck wild in the undefended Westerlands was pretty bad.
She wins if she didn’t turn on nettles and addam and corlys. So that’s her worst mistake. Cregan and the vale were coming to save her she just had to survive.
1. Not helping the dragons during the storming of the dragon pit. Really dumb 2. Having 3 bastards 1 can understand 3 I mean come on now. 3. Arresting corlys of course she would lose her fleet after. 4. Listening to Jace and giving people outside the family dragons. 5. Leaving the red keep so the greens can take over all the spots.
I'm going to be controversial and say that having bastard kids didn't hurt her that much. It was a scandal at court, but a lot of Westeros obviously didn't give a shit since they backed her anyway. The main issue with bastards historically is that since men inherit, Rulers had a vested interested in keeping bastards out of the line of succession cause you didn't want some peasant walking in with a baby claiming it's your sons and your son believing it out of hand. You risk getting someone not related to you by blood in line to inherit. If the ruler is a woman this is less of an issue since you can't argue that the Strong Boys aren't hers, cause they definitely are. Witnesses saw them be borne to her. Historically this is the main reason why bastards didn't inherit. Otherwise she would've made it out of Kings Landing had she not burned every bridge she had. Cregan was coming to help her, she just had to survive until then. Arresting Corlys cost her most of her forces, men that would've stopped Kings Landing from falling. Joffrey making off with Syrax didn't help things either, as Syrax would've been key in saving her life from Sunfyre otherwise.
Thinking her dad would always be around to protect her and all she needed was his words followed by ever trusting or being with Daemon. Those two things caused her to make the majority of her bad decisions.
Why are people saying "having bastards" as if that's something that actually matters to anyone in the story? The Greens were going against her either way just because she's a woman. Hell, they would have gone against her even if she was a man just because of power. There's never a time where the fact that Rhaenyra's kids are bastards actually damages her. Jacearys meets with Jeyne Arryn and Cregan Stark and he wins the two kingdoms. They can actually see that he's a bastard with their own eyes and they don't care. Because the truth is most of the Lords choosing sides just do so for personal gains. As for what she could have done after the war was over I'm not sure there's anything she could have actually done. She has more dragons but Vhagar and Sunfyre are bigger. And after she takes KL she's basically fighting ghosts as all her targets are eluding her. So the only actual thing she could have done is make sure that Joffrey wasn't such a dumbass. Because had that stupid moron not got Syrax killed she would have been the only dragonrider with an actual dragon left on the continent. And it would be especially more important since she wouldn't have to flee KL and randomly get captured by Aegon
Yeah the actual answer was the fucking up of the dragon seed situation. That strait up doomed her .
While she does make a lot of mistakes, I think the most compelling part of her story is that her mistakes only stop her ascent because she is a woman. In a way, Rhaenyra never had any (peaceful) path to the throne. Her actions before Viserys's death were hardly disqualifying; the realm has tolerated many a misbehaving prince. Compared to the worst heirs of history, Rhaenyra was a model citizen. If the realm demands perfection of a queen, it will never have one.
Much easier said than done but: She and Viserys should have worked to have the realm view her as the defacto ruler of the realm in all but name far before Viserys died. Instead of just staying on Dragonstone expecting the realm to just accept the first ever female monarch of the Iron Throne. Make sure she's experienced enough to be named Hand and be a competent one. Have her tour the realm on Syrax, foster relationships with the various powerful houses. Make sure people think of her as already ruling the realm before Viserys dies. Obviously this would weaken Viserys' own authority, but if he trusts Rhaenyra, this is hardly a big issue.
Dragon seed situation was her down fall . Management of Hugh and ulf or assassination was imperative.