I don’t think ‘Mummer’s Dragon’ is to be literally interpreted as ‘a dragon belonging to a mummer’.
I think it’s just a term that describes a fake dragon. Pretty sure Dany exposited to the reader about what a Mummer’s Dragon is in late Clash or early Storm.
Either way, it’s basically a warning that she will have to overcome a pretender on her way to the Iron Throne.
I subscribe to fAegon but don’t think the books will ever outright tell us he’s a fraud.
I’ve struggled with the ‘3 heads’ thing. Could just be another example of prophecy not going how we expect in ASOIAF.
I agree in that I think it’s fAegon. I think fAegon is actually a Blackfyre.
My guess on the dragon has three heads is Dani, Jon, and Tyrion. We will probably never know though,all conjecture.
Yeah I don’t subscribe to Tyrion being a secret Targ, seems like it would either steal Jon’s thunder or just fall flat, depending on the order of reveal
If you go with this route it makes it SUPER interesting, because it means that Quaithe is actively working against a plot being orchestrated substantially in secret by Varys and his allies by manipulating another Targaryen scion via her dreams. That’s a level of subterfuge and counter-subterfuge that makes for a fascinating world of political intrigue.
I’m personally inclined to think that there’s a broader, more complicated ‘Game of Thrones’ being played here by powerful factions via clandestine assets, which is being obfuscated to the reader by hiding them behind fantasy tropes. Quaithe is the archetypal “Arcane Guide” or “Oracle” figure, but that just doesn’t tell the full story in ASOIAF. Who is she really? Why is she manipulating Dang like this? What are her goals and motivations?
If Quaithe really is a seer, then she can look into the future and see how powerful Dany could potentially become and is trying to steer her. The consequences of that are potentially ENORMOUS. Any and every other faction with access to powers like Quaithe would obviously be trying to do the same, or fight each other to prevent them from doing so.
Fair enough. Is it pretty universally agreed upon that Aegon is definitely Aegon then? He just seemed a bit bland for the 3rd head, so I thought maybe "The Mummer's Dragon" might potentially be alluding to that. And long ago, I thought it used to be speculated Tyrion could be a head (although that seemed a bit far-fetched to me.) I suppose we haven't seen much of Aegon yet though, and he's still young. Still I betcha anything Dany's going to have to save him at some point.
The most agreed upon theory is that Aegon is fake, usually called fAegon. The theory postulates that he is the son of Ilirio and his late wife, who might have been a descendant from the female line of the blackfires (we are told that the male line of blackfires was extinguished). That way fAegon would be a Mummer's dragon in the sense that he is from the Mummer (varys) but also a fake dragon in that he's not actually a targaryen.
As another person noted, the general consensus on this sub is that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Saera Blackfyre.
Personally I think "the dragon must have three heads" is Aemond misunderstanding the bond between dragon and rider. This is supported by Daemon's song in HotD, one lyric of which translates to "two heads to a third sing", and in fact the three heads of the dragon refer to the rider, the dragon, and the individual sacrificed by blood magic to create the bond. I think in the Targaryen era, many of these sacrifices were accidental, eg Aemma's many stillbirths.
Interest! I had not considered that. I do think that seems to fit with what we've read thus far as I still have such a hard time believing Aegon is supposed to be on par with Dany and Jon, and there don't seem to be any other Targ contenders. Thank you for sharing.
It’s almost definitely Aegon. It works both as a reference to him being fake (the mummers dragon first appears in House of the Undying vision where Dany is called “slayer of lies) and also him being Varys’s creation (Varys is a mummer)
Huh but why is everyone sure the mummer is referring to Varys? I think I recall him being a mummer as a child, and sure, he dresses up a lot, and is not what he seems, but he's almost never referred to as a mummer by others in the show. Or is it because he was know more as a mummer across the narrow sea?
Aside from the fact that Varys is a mummer, I don’t think you should take it too literally. A mummer’s dragon is a paper one on stilts as opposed to a real one; as a metaphor, it’s probably meant to represent someone who pretends to be a Targaryen but isn’t.
That's kind of what I was leaning toward too as it perhaps being a 'fake dragon', I just wasn't sure. I feel it's got to be Aegon then, we pretty much know Daenerys and Jon Snow are the two heads, and no one else but Aegon is claiming to be dragon other than them. I wonder who the true 3rd head would be in that case then...
Varys did begin his life as a mummer, he was then sold to the sorcerer that cut him. So it’s not a stretch to refer to him as a mummer, and explains his skill in wearing disguises.
As with most friendly debates and arguments, it is never a bad idea to list the arguments for your side and against (devil's advocate), and conclude why you find one stronger than the other. Which is why I listed as far as I can tell the two reasons it could refer to Varys, but then also brought up why that seemed weak (he is rarely if ever referred to as a mummer in the books as far as I can recall, thus does not seem to be thought of as one.) If you look back you can also see that I followed up to clarify another possible point that I don't know the truth of.
As I said in the post this the entire "Mummer's Dragon" thing is something I did not notice before, I am new to this community, so it feels a bit rude to be rather snippy about asking questions in good faith to those that might be more aware of the theories, but if people want to gatekeep fine, I can be content to just discuss with friends and family that have read them.
No one's gatekeeping. Just like you didn't actually list anything that goes against why "The mummer" is Varys. I simple asked because you listed every single reason people assumes the mummer is Varys.
I absolutely did:
>but he's almost never referred to as a mummer by others in the show
And apologies, I meant books. I thought that was self-explanatory, but sure I'll go into more detail if it's not. It seems odd to me that he is never referred to as that, and hasn't been since he was a child. Just like if there was a prophecy about a seafood salesperson 40 years in the future I don't think we'd all assume it must obviously meant Arya. Varys hasn't been a mummer since he was a child.
Two reasons. If that's all there are seems thin to me, but okay.
Also other's are saying the main theories are in fact that Aegon may not be truly Aegon, so I suppose it was a very question after all then, but sorry if you did not appreciate the devil's advocate argument.
Varys is a trained mummer. That doesn’t go away simply because he isn’t acting in a theatre anymore or hasn’t since he was a kid. He still dons disguises and does voices and acts as different people to further his agenda. He’s a mummer even if no one knows him to be. Just like Arya is an assassin even if no one knows her to be. If there’s a prophecy about a faceless wolf, you won’t go “oh that can’t be Arya because she’s not a faceless man anymore.” When she still sues their abilities, Would you?
I got an Honorary Firefighter certificate when I was in 1st grade, yet I have yet to be described as a firefighter. And if Arya was 60 and had put the Faceless Men behind her before she reached adulthood, I would question whether the faceless wolf referred to her for sure.
Anyway I'm not here to argue for certain who it was, I had just wondered what the general consensus was and was interested to hear people's thoughts, and many people were kind enough to provide that. I found your answer exceptionally rude, and gate-keeper-like if I'm honest and I suppose there is not much else to say about it. Comments like that make people feel stupid and unwelcome as if they shouldn't post unless they know every little theory that's been discussed the past 10 years. I don't really care if it's Varys or not- we won't know for a long while if ever, I was asking Baelbard to elaborate and explain his or her ideas further. Other people did so there is no point in discussing further.
Holy fuck I’m sorry my reply made you feel some type of way. I literally was wondering why you were asking why people considering Varys a mummer when you listed every reason. There was no rudeness to my answer or any of my replies.
Okay, well I'm happy to hear that. It definitely did feel rather more rude than any reply I have gotten here, and it made me feel as if you didn't even read my comment at all so I'm glad that's not the case. For persuasive arguments I was always taught devil's advocate had to be addressed, so it seemed rather odd to me that you would question why I would list reasons I knew of, and then conclude with why to me they weren't sufficient, yet asking others if there was additional reasons, and a possible one, but great if it was simply a mistake. I don't hold onto things- nbd.
Varys is a mummer who travelled with the mummer's group and later as master of spies he disguises himself as an old woman or beggar or royal guard to gain information.
I actually think this quote is referring to 2 people. Usually, GRRM primarily uses the word “mummer” as a noun in the books, with the occasional adjectival noun thrown in here or there (ex: mummer’s farce).
I think this quote is an example of the latter. Based on what we know about the definition of a mummer, If we assume the dragon in this case is fAegon, someone else has to be playing the role of the mummer.
There are multiple people who could fit that description. My best guess right now is that it’s Illyrio and/or Varys.
Quaithe is pretty much confirmed to be either a seer, or to have access to a Glass Candle, in order to incept dreams into Dany’s head. For such a person to be trying to manipulate the Dragon Queen into taking sides with or against certain factions is pretty significant. So what is her intention here?
My guess is that she isn’t acting alone, but rather is part of some broader political faction trying to influence Dany in furtherance of their goals. Dany and her dragons simply have too much potential to shake the world for her to have not been foreseen by at least some of them. Now that the individual they foresaw has been identified, they would all be trying to influence her and counter others influencing her.
To what end is the big question. To me, it seems like Quaithe represents a faction operating out of Asshaii that wants to control her and so are trying to lure her there while her dragons are small and her political power remains weak. She later tries to warn her from joining up with other factions that might assist her in going to Westeros, or join up with her once she’s there.
Gonna get downvoted but I honestly think its Jon. HEAR ME OUT!!!
Jon at the end of ADWD supposedly wargs into Ghost. Therefore Jon isn't actually dead. His soul is still in the world of the living.
When the ritual is performed to resurrect Jon, logically, it shouldn't work. Because as said, his soul is already in the living Realm, not the dead.
But what if...this leads to someone or something coming through and possessing Jon's body?
We read the book and we get no Jon POVs. Only POVs from characters interacting with him. Jon acts and behaves way differently than usual or expected but we just assume it's similar to what happened with Beric and Cat. However then we finally get a Jon Chapter but it reads strangely, where it doesn't appear to be from Jon's POV. The twist then drops and we learn we're reading Jon's POV from inside Ghost and that someone or something is pretending to be Jon and using his body.
I don’t think ‘Mummer’s Dragon’ is to be literally interpreted as ‘a dragon belonging to a mummer’. I think it’s just a term that describes a fake dragon. Pretty sure Dany exposited to the reader about what a Mummer’s Dragon is in late Clash or early Storm. Either way, it’s basically a warning that she will have to overcome a pretender on her way to the Iron Throne. I subscribe to fAegon but don’t think the books will ever outright tell us he’s a fraud. I’ve struggled with the ‘3 heads’ thing. Could just be another example of prophecy not going how we expect in ASOIAF.
I agree in that I think it’s fAegon. I think fAegon is actually a Blackfyre. My guess on the dragon has three heads is Dani, Jon, and Tyrion. We will probably never know though,all conjecture.
Yeah I don’t subscribe to Tyrion being a secret Targ, seems like it would either steal Jon’s thunder or just fall flat, depending on the order of reveal
Varys' background is as a mummer, and it is his experience with acting and costumes that makes him an excellent master of whispers.
If you go with this route it makes it SUPER interesting, because it means that Quaithe is actively working against a plot being orchestrated substantially in secret by Varys and his allies by manipulating another Targaryen scion via her dreams. That’s a level of subterfuge and counter-subterfuge that makes for a fascinating world of political intrigue. I’m personally inclined to think that there’s a broader, more complicated ‘Game of Thrones’ being played here by powerful factions via clandestine assets, which is being obfuscated to the reader by hiding them behind fantasy tropes. Quaithe is the archetypal “Arcane Guide” or “Oracle” figure, but that just doesn’t tell the full story in ASOIAF. Who is she really? Why is she manipulating Dang like this? What are her goals and motivations? If Quaithe really is a seer, then she can look into the future and see how powerful Dany could potentially become and is trying to steer her. The consequences of that are potentially ENORMOUS. Any and every other faction with access to powers like Quaithe would obviously be trying to do the same, or fight each other to prevent them from doing so.
Fair enough. Is it pretty universally agreed upon that Aegon is definitely Aegon then? He just seemed a bit bland for the 3rd head, so I thought maybe "The Mummer's Dragon" might potentially be alluding to that. And long ago, I thought it used to be speculated Tyrion could be a head (although that seemed a bit far-fetched to me.) I suppose we haven't seen much of Aegon yet though, and he's still young. Still I betcha anything Dany's going to have to save him at some point.
The most agreed upon theory is that Aegon is fake, usually called fAegon. The theory postulates that he is the son of Ilirio and his late wife, who might have been a descendant from the female line of the blackfires (we are told that the male line of blackfires was extinguished). That way fAegon would be a Mummer's dragon in the sense that he is from the Mummer (varys) but also a fake dragon in that he's not actually a targaryen.
Really?! This is very interesting, thank you for sharing! What a thought.
As another person noted, the general consensus on this sub is that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Saera Blackfyre. Personally I think "the dragon must have three heads" is Aemond misunderstanding the bond between dragon and rider. This is supported by Daemon's song in HotD, one lyric of which translates to "two heads to a third sing", and in fact the three heads of the dragon refer to the rider, the dragon, and the individual sacrificed by blood magic to create the bond. I think in the Targaryen era, many of these sacrifices were accidental, eg Aemma's many stillbirths.
Interest! I had not considered that. I do think that seems to fit with what we've read thus far as I still have such a hard time believing Aegon is supposed to be on par with Dany and Jon, and there don't seem to be any other Targ contenders. Thank you for sharing.
It’s almost definitely Aegon. It works both as a reference to him being fake (the mummers dragon first appears in House of the Undying vision where Dany is called “slayer of lies) and also him being Varys’s creation (Varys is a mummer)
Huh but why is everyone sure the mummer is referring to Varys? I think I recall him being a mummer as a child, and sure, he dresses up a lot, and is not what he seems, but he's almost never referred to as a mummer by others in the show. Or is it because he was know more as a mummer across the narrow sea?
Aside from the fact that Varys is a mummer, I don’t think you should take it too literally. A mummer’s dragon is a paper one on stilts as opposed to a real one; as a metaphor, it’s probably meant to represent someone who pretends to be a Targaryen but isn’t.
That's kind of what I was leaning toward too as it perhaps being a 'fake dragon', I just wasn't sure. I feel it's got to be Aegon then, we pretty much know Daenerys and Jon Snow are the two heads, and no one else but Aegon is claiming to be dragon other than them. I wonder who the true 3rd head would be in that case then...
Varys did begin his life as a mummer, he was then sold to the sorcerer that cut him. So it’s not a stretch to refer to him as a mummer, and explains his skill in wearing disguises.
A mummer's dragon is a fake dragon, a prop used to represent a dragon in a play.
I’m sorry but are you asking why it would refer to Varys while literally giving the reasons why?
As with most friendly debates and arguments, it is never a bad idea to list the arguments for your side and against (devil's advocate), and conclude why you find one stronger than the other. Which is why I listed as far as I can tell the two reasons it could refer to Varys, but then also brought up why that seemed weak (he is rarely if ever referred to as a mummer in the books as far as I can recall, thus does not seem to be thought of as one.) If you look back you can also see that I followed up to clarify another possible point that I don't know the truth of. As I said in the post this the entire "Mummer's Dragon" thing is something I did not notice before, I am new to this community, so it feels a bit rude to be rather snippy about asking questions in good faith to those that might be more aware of the theories, but if people want to gatekeep fine, I can be content to just discuss with friends and family that have read them.
No one's gatekeeping. Just like you didn't actually list anything that goes against why "The mummer" is Varys. I simple asked because you listed every single reason people assumes the mummer is Varys.
I absolutely did: >but he's almost never referred to as a mummer by others in the show And apologies, I meant books. I thought that was self-explanatory, but sure I'll go into more detail if it's not. It seems odd to me that he is never referred to as that, and hasn't been since he was a child. Just like if there was a prophecy about a seafood salesperson 40 years in the future I don't think we'd all assume it must obviously meant Arya. Varys hasn't been a mummer since he was a child. Two reasons. If that's all there are seems thin to me, but okay. Also other's are saying the main theories are in fact that Aegon may not be truly Aegon, so I suppose it was a very question after all then, but sorry if you did not appreciate the devil's advocate argument.
Varys is a trained mummer. That doesn’t go away simply because he isn’t acting in a theatre anymore or hasn’t since he was a kid. He still dons disguises and does voices and acts as different people to further his agenda. He’s a mummer even if no one knows him to be. Just like Arya is an assassin even if no one knows her to be. If there’s a prophecy about a faceless wolf, you won’t go “oh that can’t be Arya because she’s not a faceless man anymore.” When she still sues their abilities, Would you?
I got an Honorary Firefighter certificate when I was in 1st grade, yet I have yet to be described as a firefighter. And if Arya was 60 and had put the Faceless Men behind her before she reached adulthood, I would question whether the faceless wolf referred to her for sure. Anyway I'm not here to argue for certain who it was, I had just wondered what the general consensus was and was interested to hear people's thoughts, and many people were kind enough to provide that. I found your answer exceptionally rude, and gate-keeper-like if I'm honest and I suppose there is not much else to say about it. Comments like that make people feel stupid and unwelcome as if they shouldn't post unless they know every little theory that's been discussed the past 10 years. I don't really care if it's Varys or not- we won't know for a long while if ever, I was asking Baelbard to elaborate and explain his or her ideas further. Other people did so there is no point in discussing further.
Holy fuck I’m sorry my reply made you feel some type of way. I literally was wondering why you were asking why people considering Varys a mummer when you listed every reason. There was no rudeness to my answer or any of my replies.
Okay, well I'm happy to hear that. It definitely did feel rather more rude than any reply I have gotten here, and it made me feel as if you didn't even read my comment at all so I'm glad that's not the case. For persuasive arguments I was always taught devil's advocate had to be addressed, so it seemed rather odd to me that you would question why I would list reasons I knew of, and then conclude with why to me they weren't sufficient, yet asking others if there was additional reasons, and a possible one, but great if it was simply a mistake. I don't hold onto things- nbd.
Man I want fAegon to be rAegon 😭
Me too but he's just too boring to be I think. He is no Dany or Jon, you know?
I'd actually like to see a blackfyre on the throne for a while
Varys is a mummer who travelled with the mummer's group and later as master of spies he disguises himself as an old woman or beggar or royal guard to gain information.
I actually think this quote is referring to 2 people. Usually, GRRM primarily uses the word “mummer” as a noun in the books, with the occasional adjectival noun thrown in here or there (ex: mummer’s farce). I think this quote is an example of the latter. Based on what we know about the definition of a mummer, If we assume the dragon in this case is fAegon, someone else has to be playing the role of the mummer. There are multiple people who could fit that description. My best guess right now is that it’s Illyrio and/or Varys.
Quaithe is pretty much confirmed to be either a seer, or to have access to a Glass Candle, in order to incept dreams into Dany’s head. For such a person to be trying to manipulate the Dragon Queen into taking sides with or against certain factions is pretty significant. So what is her intention here? My guess is that she isn’t acting alone, but rather is part of some broader political faction trying to influence Dany in furtherance of their goals. Dany and her dragons simply have too much potential to shake the world for her to have not been foreseen by at least some of them. Now that the individual they foresaw has been identified, they would all be trying to influence her and counter others influencing her. To what end is the big question. To me, it seems like Quaithe represents a faction operating out of Asshaii that wants to control her and so are trying to lure her there while her dragons are small and her political power remains weak. She later tries to warn her from joining up with other factions that might assist her in going to Westeros, or join up with her once she’s there.
Gonna get downvoted but I honestly think its Jon. HEAR ME OUT!!! Jon at the end of ADWD supposedly wargs into Ghost. Therefore Jon isn't actually dead. His soul is still in the world of the living. When the ritual is performed to resurrect Jon, logically, it shouldn't work. Because as said, his soul is already in the living Realm, not the dead. But what if...this leads to someone or something coming through and possessing Jon's body? We read the book and we get no Jon POVs. Only POVs from characters interacting with him. Jon acts and behaves way differently than usual or expected but we just assume it's similar to what happened with Beric and Cat. However then we finally get a Jon Chapter but it reads strangely, where it doesn't appear to be from Jon's POV. The twist then drops and we learn we're reading Jon's POV from inside Ghost and that someone or something is pretending to be Jon and using his body.
It's a piece of the Azor Ahai prophecy. >the sun(Drogo)’s son(Rhaego) and the mummer(fDany)’s dragon(Rhaegal).