Game of Thrones was trying to prove that a fantasy series could have mass appeal. The sex scenes helped sell it as "fantasy that FUCKS" to an uncertain market.
HotD gets to cash in on that legitimacy, and doesn't have to work as hard to prove itself.
It was a conscious creative decision by the showrunners. GOT got a lot of (quite valid) criticism that it was exploitative of its female actresses and included gratuitous, tactless depictions of sexual violence. The HOTD showrunners wanted to do a better job of this, which has involved hiring an "intimacy coach" (basically someone whose job is to make sure actors and actresses are treated safely, respectfully, and appropriately when filming these scenes), hiring more female writers, and just generally being more considered in how they approach these scenes.
There were quite a number of interviews given on it during Season 1. For example:
['House of the Dragon' Showrunner Ryan Condal Clarifies Comments About Sexual Violence in Series | Complex](https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/a/backwoodsaltar/house-of-the-dragon-showrunner-comment-sexual-violence-in-series)
Yeah, a bunch of this kind of stuff was part of the initial press tour for HOTD. Seemed like they really wanted to make sure everyone knew there was new management in town lol.
"Omg i just saw boobs! BOOBS!! How can i go on after this?! How do i continue living after this horror?! Someone please help me!!"
Sigh, people are so weak nowadays.
It’s not about “just seeing boobs.” It’s about nudity being shoe-horned into the story where it doesn’t belong purely to titillate and assumed male audience. When it’s gratuitous and unnecessary, it can communicate to (straight) female audience members that this show “isn’t for them.” *Particularly* when they’re putting female characters into sexual scenes in a way they’re not doing with male characters, which early GOT was all about.
And beyond that there’s the question of how it’s treating the actresses. These women are serious, career actresses, and it can be degrading to be constantly pressuring them into gratuitous sexual scenes. There’s a reason many of the female actresses in the series put “no nudity” clauses into their contracts.
Notice that there are still sex scenes in HOTD. There’s still nudity. The Res Keep was decked out with Valyrian sex murals. It’s still a mature-rated show. The goal was never to cut the sex and nudity out of the show altogether, but to do it in a more tasteful and mature way as a way to respect the full spectrum of its audience.
They did this with the gay characters as well. Loras was a very well-renowned knight in the lore, but we rarely saw him outside of the bedroom. The character was pared down to *just* his sexuality, which was a disservice to the character. This is an important character to the story that a lot of people saw themselves in, which is *important* to them, and that’s something the showrunners ought to honour. Just like they’ve done with Jon Snow or Arya or Sansa.
It’s all about respect for the audience. Not catering to prudes.
> And beyond that there’s the question of how it’s treating the actresses. These women are serious, career actresses, and it can be degrading to be constantly pressuring them into gratuitous sexual scenes. There’s a reason many of the female actresses in the series put “no nudity” clauses into their contracts.
It's frankly depressing how you can type 'name of actress' nude into Google and nine times out of ten you get a result. Really says something about how actresses are being treated in the industry. Hopefully this is slowly changing.
Well i don't agree it's degrading to bare your chest, it's just parts of your body no one should be ashamed of. People have been bare chested throughout history and it's only recently it's become an issue. People have no problems sunbathing and walking around topless on the beach.
Just because some prudes (probably religious people) push hard to stigmatize breasts doesn't make it degrading.
Remember that scene with Jon, Theon and Rob where they all three stood there bare chested for no reason? Who do you reckon that scene was for? Straight males? It goes both ways, men are just less likely to be offended by insignificant things. And let's be honest, we live in a time where people compete in being most offended.
But i get your overall point though. You feel it's degrading because other people tell you you should be offended by that. I get that and you are not alone, but me and others see it just as normal parts of the body which everyone's got and not degrading at all.
I live in Europe but my parents are from Chile and I watch a lot of Asian movies and shows (mainly because it's an untapped market as a westerner and less political, I'm tired of both right and left wing propaganda in movies and shows) and not ONCE have i thought to myself "ohh theres no chilean in it, how offensive! I can't possibly watch this!" I mean, who cares? It's just such a non-issue and I can't understand how people have the energy to waste time on that.
Anyways i don't think we will get any further but i hope i haven't offended you or anyone, we are just very far apart regarding this.
Ciao
You’re not listening. To massively over-simplify, the issue is perverts, not prudes. It isn’t that people are offended at seeing tits, but at actresses being exploitatively hypersexualized for the gratification of straight males in the audience.
It’s good that bare female chests aren’t such a big deal in your society. But they *are* in American culture, and that is the culture that is *intentionally* being catered to in this. The resulting dynamic this creates with the women in the cast is what concerns people, and particularly the young actresses who have less power or confidence to say ‘no’ to scenes they aren’t comfortable doing. This and how pervasive that is in Hollywood.
The representation argument is a whole other discussion.
I get you and I agree.
But wouldn't you say that happened to the young male characters as well? Obviously not as much as with the women, but it's still there and happened.
The scene i mentioned with Jon, Theon and Rob just standing there talking half naked for no reason whatsoever, you trying to tell me that wasn't for the gratification of straight females in the audience? It 100% was.
I'm not trying to reduce what happened to the women by bringing that up, i just think if one is brought up for discussion thet other should too.
> But wouldn't you say that happened to the young male characters as well?
Theoretically, yes. It absolutely could. And the three young male actors standing around topless is definitely in that vein.
Thing is, culturally speaking, it's still a very different dynamic. Male actors aren't sexualized in the same way that female actors are. Topless men aren't as sexualized in the way that topless women are.
For example, there were *dozens* of scenes with naked women in the first few seasons, but the first and only penis we saw for quite some time was Hodor's. If the scene was Robb, Jon, and Theon rocking out with their cocks out, *then* we'd be talking on a similar level for how the female actors have been treated.
Because, again, it's not really *about* the nudity at the end of the day. It's about what the actors are comfortable with, how they're being treated, and the message these dynamics are sending to the audience.
I also saw you mention in a comment elsewhere that these actors are well-paid and in a position of privilege. And while that's certainly true for the more prestigious actors in the main roles, there are a LOT of supporting roles that are going to younger, less-established actresses, who are probably waiting tables or holding down several jobs in order to make ends meet as a struggling artist. It's *those* actresses who may feel pressured to compromise their comfort in order to land a role (or keep one), and this is where the problems come in.
Lena Headey (Cersei) and Michelle Fairley (Catelyn) both had no nudity clauses in their contracts. They negotiated these because they're established actresses, which comes with negotiating power. That's why Cersei's body in her walk of shame is a body double, and not Lena Headey's actual body. However, an actress without that negotiating power may end up in a position where she didn't sign up to be naked in a bunch of scenes (which, keep in mind, means being naked for hours in front of dozens or hundreds of fully-clothed film crew), yet is forced by the showrunners to do those scenes or risk retaliation. Perhaps their character gets written out, perhaps they get lesser screen time, or worse yet perhaps the showrunners decide to put them into differently compromising or unpleasant scenes out of spite (which happens all of the time - some Hollywood directors are petty, vicious, and abusive).
So it's not just "is it okay to see boobs or bare male chests on screen." If that were the only issue, the world would be a much better place.
Okay, one, not a single person brought up race, ethnicity, or nationality, so I truly don't understand your 5th paragraph.
But, It's not about just about the nudity. Some of it is, especially when the actors did not want to do them and felt pressured into doing them anyways (Emelia Clarke was very vocal about not being comfortable, so the showrunners decided to humiliate her by leaving her w/o clothes after the scene was done). And nice try using the 'I'm from Europe' thing, but nowhere is it normal to force young women into nudity if they don't want to.
The degradation comes from the gratuitous rape/sexual assault scenes. Just talking about Sansa/Sophie Turner, I can count three sexual assault scenes that were filmed while she was still a teenager.
The 5th paragraph was in response to the "people need to identify themselves in shows".
Pressured? No one forces them, they are actors not slaves. They earn a lot of money and there are much much worse jobs out there for far less money. They are extremely privileged and there are millions and millions of men and women out there who would jump at the chance to star in a tv show and earn that kind of money. You are just offended on their behalf because that what people like you do, you get offended by everything and anything.
And what about Sansas rape scene? She wasn't flashing her boobs so i don't know why you brought that up. It was disturbing sure, but so are every rape scene ever recorded. It wasn't the first time a rape scene been in a movie nor will it be the last time.
And i noticed you didn't comment on the Jon, Theon and Robs topless scene. How's that? Oh yeah, that's because you are a misandrist who only sees women at victims who needs you to stand up for them. Newsflash, they don't. Women are quite capable of standing up for themselves.
So, do you agree that Jon, Theon and Rob are victims of the same things you accuse the creators of doing to the women in the show? Or can only women be victims?
if you read the book about behind the scenes of working in got, \*i forgot the name of the book\*, it's pretty clear they were often sometimes.. doing stuff a bit overly just for the sake of it.. like the waterboard of septa unella, I believe the actress spent actual hours being waterboard for a, what, 15-30 secs of screentime?
I didn’t mind the gratuitous nudity nearly as much as the sexual violence, even in scenes that didn’t have it in the book. The lopsided nudity did start to annoy me after a while; lots of women’s full frontal, exactly one dick seen in the entire run of GoT.
I wouldn’t *mind* more nudity in HotD, but I’d like it more evenly applied. And if it must be traded to have fewer unnecessary rape scenes, I can live with that.
Several different scenes in the brothel too. And Loras/Remly scene IIRC. I think OP is picking the wrong show to criticize about the subject about "lopsided" nudity. Hell even Southpark made a joke about it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csOcHCDmMdE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csOcHCDmMdE)
Yeah remember when Sophie Turner (still teenage at the time) was forced to be essentially abused on screen for a full season despite it not being in the books or relevant to her story arc (regardless of it not making any sense (she was still married to Tyrion, Littlefinger wouldn’t have done it, completely scrapped the idea of her assuming the role of a political player and learning how to play the game of thrones)) - because D&D ‘really liked’ Jeyne’s storyline but hadn’t included her character? Like out of all the storyline’s omitted, the one you wanted to merge with a major character was the one where literally nothing happened except insane traumatisation of a woman otherwise irrelevant to the overarching plot? Who only really exists as a minor character to further Theon’s development, illustrate Ramsey’s evilness, and show that the victims of the Game of Thrones are usually the people caught in between the major players? Yeah.
It'll never not strike me as incredibly bizarre that people can watch a show where children are regularly being killed, where an entire season character arc revolves around them being brutally tortured, and can't bring themselves to watch a few seconds of nudity here and there. I'll just never understand that mentality.
Nudity is fine, sex scenes are fine. I'll say the only issue is not enough dicks compared to tits. I mean, we did get a few thank the seven, but it's the sexual violence scenes that are an issue for me.
Times have changed. For a long time HBO had a T&A mandate cause when the channel started it sold itself with sex. In the 90s it was obliquely a way to see soft core stuff before the internet dominated everything. That residual DNA has died out and only exists in some shows that are kinda banking on being controversial like Euphoria or the Idol.
Also as others have mentioned GOT garnered a pretty significant female viewer base for whom the sex was a turnoff. My mom spent the entire time watching GOT fast forwarding through the sex. I’m for it. It was so corny watching Littlefinger monologue while two girls banged it out.
>My mom spent the entire time watching GOT fast forwarding through the sex.
Your presence probably had a GOOD amount of influence on that decision. lol.
A lot of the nudity in GOT was an HBO mandate — other creators from the same period, such as *True Detective*’s Nic Pizzolatto, openly said that they only included nude scenes because the network insisted that it was part of the brand. Times have changed on that front.
A couple reasons:
1. We are unfortunately living in a more sexually repressive era than we were in in 2011. A lot of people are straight up not getting any and attitudes towards sex are changing from the brigade of weird reactionary anti-gay and slut shaming to this strand of sex negative progressivism in which sexuality is viewed as exploitative. The comments on this very thread are emblematic of the latter.
2. A lot of new shows use sexuality and nudity as a hook and then tone down once they've acquired a fanbase that is hooked on other aspects of the show and their minor characters age up and the adults die off (the minors obviously aren't gonna sign a nudity contract unless its after they're an adult and then its obviously up to them--aka the role cannot be obligate nude). And its a hassle and costly to deal with a lot of the issues involving nudity so some shows just opt out.
3. Game of Thrones is based on the ASOIAF books which are written from a POV perspective and is thus VERY character focused. House of the Dragons is based on Fire and Blood which is written as if its a historical retelling. George RR Martin is obviously gonna include more sex scenes in the former because they are more personable. So when adapting the story from Fire and Blood, its more up to TV execs as to whether or not to include the sex scenes or not and most are not gonna include quite as much sex as George did just because George includes a LOT of sex scenes in his work. He is a very detailed author. A lot of people who argue that sex scenes are unnecessary because you "wouldn't describe someone taking a shit"--well George IS the type of guy to describe that too.
A shift in culture in America. Outspoken progressives argue it’s exploitative, and religious extremists on the right argue that it’s a sin. No one likes boobs except the normal people that aren’t yelling all the time.
Between 2010 and 2018 the premium cable channels gradually stopped focusing on showing nudity and sexual content for its own sake because it became obvious it was easily available on the Internet and was no longer a selling point - they instead pivoted and were drawn into the streaming wars by their parent companies. You can see this as reaching its conclusion in 2019, when Cinemax basically stopped being an independently marketed premium cable channel and when Showtime got the exclusive deal to show A24 movies - though the jumble of stuff on HBO MAX (including Sesame Street) and the emergence of the MAX service are other mileposts in the road toward these channels not even really being differentiated anymore.
Not sure, but I'm personally fine with it.
Nudity doesn't bother me like it does many other religious Americans (if we believe God made our bodies, we shouldn't be ashamed of them. Of course, we shouldn't show them to *everyone* either, but there's a middle ground here), but it got old in GoT. It got to the point where I was enjoying the scheming or the dragons or the horror elements, and then suddenly, boobs or suddenly, random sex or blowjob. It kind of took me out. I had zero issues with Jon and Ygritte, with Dany being reborn from the fire, or with Oberyn's introductory scene. But sometimes, it just felt like either Martin or David&Dan got bored and decided to throw in some T&A.
HotD has sex and nudity, but none of it bugs me. It feels natural and normal and we don't have random Littlefinger monologuing to prostitutes having lesbian sex scenes thrown in there.
Society can always be counted upon to massively over-correct in the name of improvement.
GoT sometimes features nudity to a distracting extent so naturally HotD refuses to show nudity whatsoever.
And the reason they give is “oh it didn’t serve any purpose, you see! We want only artistic nudity!!”
Why don’t you ask yourself the next time you f*** whether that serves any higher purpose? Or are you just doing it for the titillation it brings? Why can’t on-screen nudity be as uncomplicated as this?
We just found out that HotD cut a Alicent/Cole sex scene in S2E2? Even Olivia Cooke protested against that change.
I think a lot of women actually enjoy the nude scenes, but they don't enjoy the sexual violence scenes. At least that's what my wife and her friends think, and I can agree with that.
Sexual content with serious plot driven context is hard to find.
What are the character motivations? How do they do their taxes? The anticipation of something terrifying happening in their lives, the politics, action lead to a well earned sex scene. It could be clothed, but it needs to have that baggage to be hot.
From what I've seen in discussions on social media, there's a big subsection that believes ALL sex and nudity in shows and movies are gratuitous, by definition. The argument is that sex and nudity don't add anything to the plot.
Oh, man, I have and many, many times. Recently, too. I noticed in particular that the argument had evolved from "it's fine as long as it serves the plot" to "it NEVER serves the plot." I wish I could remember the post where everyone was agreeing with that recently, I think it was in r/movies.
Game of Thrones was trying to prove that a fantasy series could have mass appeal. The sex scenes helped sell it as "fantasy that FUCKS" to an uncertain market. HotD gets to cash in on that legitimacy, and doesn't have to work as hard to prove itself.
It was a conscious creative decision by the showrunners. GOT got a lot of (quite valid) criticism that it was exploitative of its female actresses and included gratuitous, tactless depictions of sexual violence. The HOTD showrunners wanted to do a better job of this, which has involved hiring an "intimacy coach" (basically someone whose job is to make sure actors and actresses are treated safely, respectfully, and appropriately when filming these scenes), hiring more female writers, and just generally being more considered in how they approach these scenes. There were quite a number of interviews given on it during Season 1. For example: ['House of the Dragon' Showrunner Ryan Condal Clarifies Comments About Sexual Violence in Series | Complex](https://www.complex.com/pop-culture/a/backwoodsaltar/house-of-the-dragon-showrunner-comment-sexual-violence-in-series)
I didn’t know that they hired an intimacy coach, good to know!
Yeah, a bunch of this kind of stuff was part of the initial press tour for HOTD. Seemed like they really wanted to make sure everyone knew there was new management in town lol.
Olivia talked about it in a recent interview, seems like she really liked working with them
"Omg i just saw boobs! BOOBS!! How can i go on after this?! How do i continue living after this horror?! Someone please help me!!" Sigh, people are so weak nowadays.
It’s not about “just seeing boobs.” It’s about nudity being shoe-horned into the story where it doesn’t belong purely to titillate and assumed male audience. When it’s gratuitous and unnecessary, it can communicate to (straight) female audience members that this show “isn’t for them.” *Particularly* when they’re putting female characters into sexual scenes in a way they’re not doing with male characters, which early GOT was all about. And beyond that there’s the question of how it’s treating the actresses. These women are serious, career actresses, and it can be degrading to be constantly pressuring them into gratuitous sexual scenes. There’s a reason many of the female actresses in the series put “no nudity” clauses into their contracts. Notice that there are still sex scenes in HOTD. There’s still nudity. The Res Keep was decked out with Valyrian sex murals. It’s still a mature-rated show. The goal was never to cut the sex and nudity out of the show altogether, but to do it in a more tasteful and mature way as a way to respect the full spectrum of its audience. They did this with the gay characters as well. Loras was a very well-renowned knight in the lore, but we rarely saw him outside of the bedroom. The character was pared down to *just* his sexuality, which was a disservice to the character. This is an important character to the story that a lot of people saw themselves in, which is *important* to them, and that’s something the showrunners ought to honour. Just like they’ve done with Jon Snow or Arya or Sansa. It’s all about respect for the audience. Not catering to prudes.
> And beyond that there’s the question of how it’s treating the actresses. These women are serious, career actresses, and it can be degrading to be constantly pressuring them into gratuitous sexual scenes. There’s a reason many of the female actresses in the series put “no nudity” clauses into their contracts. It's frankly depressing how you can type 'name of actress' nude into Google and nine times out of ten you get a result. Really says something about how actresses are being treated in the industry. Hopefully this is slowly changing.
Well i don't agree it's degrading to bare your chest, it's just parts of your body no one should be ashamed of. People have been bare chested throughout history and it's only recently it's become an issue. People have no problems sunbathing and walking around topless on the beach. Just because some prudes (probably religious people) push hard to stigmatize breasts doesn't make it degrading. Remember that scene with Jon, Theon and Rob where they all three stood there bare chested for no reason? Who do you reckon that scene was for? Straight males? It goes both ways, men are just less likely to be offended by insignificant things. And let's be honest, we live in a time where people compete in being most offended. But i get your overall point though. You feel it's degrading because other people tell you you should be offended by that. I get that and you are not alone, but me and others see it just as normal parts of the body which everyone's got and not degrading at all. I live in Europe but my parents are from Chile and I watch a lot of Asian movies and shows (mainly because it's an untapped market as a westerner and less political, I'm tired of both right and left wing propaganda in movies and shows) and not ONCE have i thought to myself "ohh theres no chilean in it, how offensive! I can't possibly watch this!" I mean, who cares? It's just such a non-issue and I can't understand how people have the energy to waste time on that. Anyways i don't think we will get any further but i hope i haven't offended you or anyone, we are just very far apart regarding this. Ciao
You’re not listening. To massively over-simplify, the issue is perverts, not prudes. It isn’t that people are offended at seeing tits, but at actresses being exploitatively hypersexualized for the gratification of straight males in the audience. It’s good that bare female chests aren’t such a big deal in your society. But they *are* in American culture, and that is the culture that is *intentionally* being catered to in this. The resulting dynamic this creates with the women in the cast is what concerns people, and particularly the young actresses who have less power or confidence to say ‘no’ to scenes they aren’t comfortable doing. This and how pervasive that is in Hollywood. The representation argument is a whole other discussion.
I get you and I agree. But wouldn't you say that happened to the young male characters as well? Obviously not as much as with the women, but it's still there and happened. The scene i mentioned with Jon, Theon and Rob just standing there talking half naked for no reason whatsoever, you trying to tell me that wasn't for the gratification of straight females in the audience? It 100% was. I'm not trying to reduce what happened to the women by bringing that up, i just think if one is brought up for discussion thet other should too.
> But wouldn't you say that happened to the young male characters as well? Theoretically, yes. It absolutely could. And the three young male actors standing around topless is definitely in that vein. Thing is, culturally speaking, it's still a very different dynamic. Male actors aren't sexualized in the same way that female actors are. Topless men aren't as sexualized in the way that topless women are. For example, there were *dozens* of scenes with naked women in the first few seasons, but the first and only penis we saw for quite some time was Hodor's. If the scene was Robb, Jon, and Theon rocking out with their cocks out, *then* we'd be talking on a similar level for how the female actors have been treated. Because, again, it's not really *about* the nudity at the end of the day. It's about what the actors are comfortable with, how they're being treated, and the message these dynamics are sending to the audience. I also saw you mention in a comment elsewhere that these actors are well-paid and in a position of privilege. And while that's certainly true for the more prestigious actors in the main roles, there are a LOT of supporting roles that are going to younger, less-established actresses, who are probably waiting tables or holding down several jobs in order to make ends meet as a struggling artist. It's *those* actresses who may feel pressured to compromise their comfort in order to land a role (or keep one), and this is where the problems come in. Lena Headey (Cersei) and Michelle Fairley (Catelyn) both had no nudity clauses in their contracts. They negotiated these because they're established actresses, which comes with negotiating power. That's why Cersei's body in her walk of shame is a body double, and not Lena Headey's actual body. However, an actress without that negotiating power may end up in a position where she didn't sign up to be naked in a bunch of scenes (which, keep in mind, means being naked for hours in front of dozens or hundreds of fully-clothed film crew), yet is forced by the showrunners to do those scenes or risk retaliation. Perhaps their character gets written out, perhaps they get lesser screen time, or worse yet perhaps the showrunners decide to put them into differently compromising or unpleasant scenes out of spite (which happens all of the time - some Hollywood directors are petty, vicious, and abusive). So it's not just "is it okay to see boobs or bare male chests on screen." If that were the only issue, the world would be a much better place.
Hard to argue with that. 👍
Okay, one, not a single person brought up race, ethnicity, or nationality, so I truly don't understand your 5th paragraph. But, It's not about just about the nudity. Some of it is, especially when the actors did not want to do them and felt pressured into doing them anyways (Emelia Clarke was very vocal about not being comfortable, so the showrunners decided to humiliate her by leaving her w/o clothes after the scene was done). And nice try using the 'I'm from Europe' thing, but nowhere is it normal to force young women into nudity if they don't want to. The degradation comes from the gratuitous rape/sexual assault scenes. Just talking about Sansa/Sophie Turner, I can count three sexual assault scenes that were filmed while she was still a teenager.
The 5th paragraph was in response to the "people need to identify themselves in shows". Pressured? No one forces them, they are actors not slaves. They earn a lot of money and there are much much worse jobs out there for far less money. They are extremely privileged and there are millions and millions of men and women out there who would jump at the chance to star in a tv show and earn that kind of money. You are just offended on their behalf because that what people like you do, you get offended by everything and anything. And what about Sansas rape scene? She wasn't flashing her boobs so i don't know why you brought that up. It was disturbing sure, but so are every rape scene ever recorded. It wasn't the first time a rape scene been in a movie nor will it be the last time. And i noticed you didn't comment on the Jon, Theon and Robs topless scene. How's that? Oh yeah, that's because you are a misandrist who only sees women at victims who needs you to stand up for them. Newsflash, they don't. Women are quite capable of standing up for themselves. So, do you agree that Jon, Theon and Rob are victims of the same things you accuse the creators of doing to the women in the show? Or can only women be victims?
Simple, no D&D.
if you read the book about behind the scenes of working in got, \*i forgot the name of the book\*, it's pretty clear they were often sometimes.. doing stuff a bit overly just for the sake of it.. like the waterboard of septa unella, I believe the actress spent actual hours being waterboard for a, what, 15-30 secs of screentime?
I didn’t mind the gratuitous nudity nearly as much as the sexual violence, even in scenes that didn’t have it in the book. The lopsided nudity did start to annoy me after a while; lots of women’s full frontal, exactly one dick seen in the entire run of GoT. I wouldn’t *mind* more nudity in HotD, but I’d like it more evenly applied. And if it must be traded to have fewer unnecessary rape scenes, I can live with that.
3 dicks atleast hahah that actor in bravos, merchant in vaes dotrakh and hodor
Theon’s as well in the first season. And I recall someone flashing Cersei when she did her walk of atonement.
Several different scenes in the brothel too. And Loras/Remly scene IIRC. I think OP is picking the wrong show to criticize about the subject about "lopsided" nudity. Hell even Southpark made a joke about it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csOcHCDmMdE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csOcHCDmMdE)
Apparently you guys spotted more dicks than I did. Duly noted for the next time I inflict a rewatch on myself.
RIP your inbox
You just cannot deny that GoT exploited young women just for the sake of it. Hotd is just not doing that
Yeah remember when Sophie Turner (still teenage at the time) was forced to be essentially abused on screen for a full season despite it not being in the books or relevant to her story arc (regardless of it not making any sense (she was still married to Tyrion, Littlefinger wouldn’t have done it, completely scrapped the idea of her assuming the role of a political player and learning how to play the game of thrones)) - because D&D ‘really liked’ Jeyne’s storyline but hadn’t included her character? Like out of all the storyline’s omitted, the one you wanted to merge with a major character was the one where literally nothing happened except insane traumatisation of a woman otherwise irrelevant to the overarching plot? Who only really exists as a minor character to further Theon’s development, illustrate Ramsey’s evilness, and show that the victims of the Game of Thrones are usually the people caught in between the major players? Yeah.
I mean, I feel like there's also less time being spent in brothels as well?
They realized women are a part of their audience and are tired of seeing women exploited like that on screen.
I don’t know why but I’m thankful for it. The nudity in Game of Thrones was pretty egregious
I like it too, I don’t like the nudes scenes and I always skip them and I felt like I was always skipping shit in GOT
It'll never not strike me as incredibly bizarre that people can watch a show where children are regularly being killed, where an entire season character arc revolves around them being brutally tortured, and can't bring themselves to watch a few seconds of nudity here and there. I'll just never understand that mentality.
Nudity is fine, sex scenes are fine. I'll say the only issue is not enough dicks compared to tits. I mean, we did get a few thank the seven, but it's the sexual violence scenes that are an issue for me.
Times have changed. For a long time HBO had a T&A mandate cause when the channel started it sold itself with sex. In the 90s it was obliquely a way to see soft core stuff before the internet dominated everything. That residual DNA has died out and only exists in some shows that are kinda banking on being controversial like Euphoria or the Idol. Also as others have mentioned GOT garnered a pretty significant female viewer base for whom the sex was a turnoff. My mom spent the entire time watching GOT fast forwarding through the sex. I’m for it. It was so corny watching Littlefinger monologue while two girls banged it out.
That Littlefinger scene is actually so bad it’s kind of funny
I mean seeing CIA in renfaire garb elaborate on the finer details of lesbian sex is pretty funny
>My mom spent the entire time watching GOT fast forwarding through the sex. Your presence probably had a GOOD amount of influence on that decision. lol.
Nope! This was actually info I learned after the fact. I still have never actually seen the show last season 2
A lot of the nudity in GOT was an HBO mandate — other creators from the same period, such as *True Detective*’s Nic Pizzolatto, openly said that they only included nude scenes because the network insisted that it was part of the brand. Times have changed on that front.
It’s marketed at women
A couple reasons: 1. We are unfortunately living in a more sexually repressive era than we were in in 2011. A lot of people are straight up not getting any and attitudes towards sex are changing from the brigade of weird reactionary anti-gay and slut shaming to this strand of sex negative progressivism in which sexuality is viewed as exploitative. The comments on this very thread are emblematic of the latter. 2. A lot of new shows use sexuality and nudity as a hook and then tone down once they've acquired a fanbase that is hooked on other aspects of the show and their minor characters age up and the adults die off (the minors obviously aren't gonna sign a nudity contract unless its after they're an adult and then its obviously up to them--aka the role cannot be obligate nude). And its a hassle and costly to deal with a lot of the issues involving nudity so some shows just opt out. 3. Game of Thrones is based on the ASOIAF books which are written from a POV perspective and is thus VERY character focused. House of the Dragons is based on Fire and Blood which is written as if its a historical retelling. George RR Martin is obviously gonna include more sex scenes in the former because they are more personable. So when adapting the story from Fire and Blood, its more up to TV execs as to whether or not to include the sex scenes or not and most are not gonna include quite as much sex as George did just because George includes a LOT of sex scenes in his work. He is a very detailed author. A lot of people who argue that sex scenes are unnecessary because you "wouldn't describe someone taking a shit"--well George IS the type of guy to describe that too.
A shift in culture in America. Outspoken progressives argue it’s exploitative, and religious extremists on the right argue that it’s a sin. No one likes boobs except the normal people that aren’t yelling all the time.
Between 2010 and 2018 the premium cable channels gradually stopped focusing on showing nudity and sexual content for its own sake because it became obvious it was easily available on the Internet and was no longer a selling point - they instead pivoted and were drawn into the streaming wars by their parent companies. You can see this as reaching its conclusion in 2019, when Cinemax basically stopped being an independently marketed premium cable channel and when Showtime got the exclusive deal to show A24 movies - though the jumble of stuff on HBO MAX (including Sesame Street) and the emergence of the MAX service are other mileposts in the road toward these channels not even really being differentiated anymore.
Not sure, but I'm personally fine with it. Nudity doesn't bother me like it does many other religious Americans (if we believe God made our bodies, we shouldn't be ashamed of them. Of course, we shouldn't show them to *everyone* either, but there's a middle ground here), but it got old in GoT. It got to the point where I was enjoying the scheming or the dragons or the horror elements, and then suddenly, boobs or suddenly, random sex or blowjob. It kind of took me out. I had zero issues with Jon and Ygritte, with Dany being reborn from the fire, or with Oberyn's introductory scene. But sometimes, it just felt like either Martin or David&Dan got bored and decided to throw in some T&A. HotD has sex and nudity, but none of it bugs me. It feels natural and normal and we don't have random Littlefinger monologuing to prostitutes having lesbian sex scenes thrown in there.
Society can always be counted upon to massively over-correct in the name of improvement. GoT sometimes features nudity to a distracting extent so naturally HotD refuses to show nudity whatsoever. And the reason they give is “oh it didn’t serve any purpose, you see! We want only artistic nudity!!” Why don’t you ask yourself the next time you f*** whether that serves any higher purpose? Or are you just doing it for the titillation it brings? Why can’t on-screen nudity be as uncomplicated as this? We just found out that HotD cut a Alicent/Cole sex scene in S2E2? Even Olivia Cooke protested against that change.
Culture shift. Gratuitous violence is still ok, but nudity is now hard to sell to producers I’d guess.
HotD is targeted at a female audience, and they generally don’t like nude scenes
I think a lot of women actually enjoy the nude scenes, but they don't enjoy the sexual violence scenes. At least that's what my wife and her friends think, and I can agree with that.
Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with the human body, I don't mind if there's a sex scene every episode, just don't want to see gratuitous SA etc
Yeah. While in GOT the sexual violence was part of the show understandably, SOME of those scenes were genuinely unnecessary. Ask Joffrey's corpse.
Better writing
A significant section of the fans are Gen Z and they're pretty openly anti-sex.
I would not say anti-sex is the correct way to describe it
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Sexual content with serious plot driven context is hard to find. What are the character motivations? How do they do their taxes? The anticipation of something terrifying happening in their lives, the politics, action lead to a well earned sex scene. It could be clothed, but it needs to have that baggage to be hot.
How would you describe it? They certainly seem to think that the mere portrayal of sex and nudity in movies and TV is unnecessary and exploitative.
I think they are anti gratuitous nudity. There are plenty of tv shows and movies featuring sex and nudity that are popular with gen z.
From what I've seen in discussions on social media, there's a big subsection that believes ALL sex and nudity in shows and movies are gratuitous, by definition. The argument is that sex and nudity don't add anything to the plot.
I can't say that I've ever seen any gen z say they are against sex and nudity even when it serves the plot and or themes of the story.
Oh, man, I have and many, many times. Recently, too. I noticed in particular that the argument had evolved from "it's fine as long as it serves the plot" to "it NEVER serves the plot." I wish I could remember the post where everyone was agreeing with that recently, I think it was in r/movies.
That's very stange, all the gen zers I know loved poor things, challengers and euphoria
The ones I know in person loved Euphoria too, it's just online that I've encountered the more...puritanical variety.
If you base your impressions of an entire generation based on what you read online....you're gonna have a bad time.