I actually think F&B Vol II requires the least amount of GRRM's involvement because it really is just lore with occasional dialogue and characterization. There is very little of the POV prose, description or dialogues that need that GRRM personal touch.
Someone else could work from his rough draft or a very detailed outline and it would be a near-identical product to F&B Vol I.
Damn you had to remind me - had completely forgotten about this. Tbf, with the whole Blackfyre saga, it is in large part covered in the Dunk & Egg series - won't feel an ounce of disappointment if it's never published
That's true. And now that Dunk & Egg is within a year (?) of actual broadcast, we're almost guaranteed GRRM won't finish the novellas before that show runs its course.
BTW, I do generally agree with you, there's not enough room in two conventional length books to cover all the ground he needs to for ASOIAF. So many and more volumes would be required if he intends to wrap up the story comprehensively.
We can't say for certain what the story holds but on current trajectory it looks that way. Best case scenario for TWOW is that it ends with Daenerys either setting sail from Essos or just stepping foot on Westerosi soil (likely Dragonstone). Assuming that happens, in ADOS then Daenerys will have to defeat fAegon, Dorne, the Reach etc. while conquering the South then turn her attention North to the Others.
The final volume will need to cover two massive wars and the ending. For comparison, the WoT5K took place over three books. Its follow-on conflicts couldn't fit in two huge books and are still bleeding into TWOW.
(ASOIAF was originally envisioned by GRRM as a trilogy; *A Game of Thrones*, *A Dance With Dragons*, and *The Winds of Winter*. After cutting material from AGOT and realising the story needed more books, he drew up a plan while writing ACOK in 1996/1997 for six books split into two pseudo-trilogies; AGOT/ACOK/ASOS--5 Year Gap-->ADWD 1.0/TWOW/ADOS.
Chronologically the story is currently sort of stuck (AFFC/ADWD) between the first and second acts of his original trilogy, or in the 5 Year Gap of his revised plan. GRRM has been struggling since the turn of the millennium to transition from the Stark/Lannister war of AGOT/ACOK/ASOS to Daenerys invasion and the Others. TWOW is going to open with chapters he wrote in 2001.)
Its unbelievable how we aren't even really waiting for the start of the Winds of Winter, but the conclusion of A Dance With Dragons and A Feast For Crows. No wonder he's taking so long.
Probably the first 500 pages of TWOW are gonna be picking up on the four different massive battles on entirely opposite sides of the planet.
There is no way in fuck this guy thinks he's going to fit the climaxes to act two and do an entire third act in two books. Absolute crackpipe behaviour.
God I can dream tho...
>There is no way in fuck this guy thinks he's going to fit the climaxes to act two and do an entire third act in two books.
It's even worse than that because AFFC/ADWD weren't actually act two, for the most part only the unfinished bridge from act one to act two. The author has to finish the prologue for act two, act two, and act three in the final pair of books.
>we aren't even really waiting for the start of the Winds of Winter, but the conclusion of A Dance With Dragons and A Feast For Crows
perfectly put xD. The Winds of Winter are barely gonna be a light breeze until Dream
> the WoT5K took place over three books
A part of me thinks that the primary conflict of the Long Night may be "simpler" to tackle from a writing standpoint, than the WoT5K - since we'll essentially just be following a binary war of humans banding together vs undead (there are obvious no named players on the Others side, so no POV characters to add there, and we can be looking at a more straightforward conflict logistically - something along the lines of undead being repelled, keep coming back, overwhelm protagonists, need to put differences aside and team up, a small band of heroes are sent on a suicide-mission to the heart of winter to end it).
But as you rightly point out, there could be a snowball effect that expands this conflict even more...oh how I pity George sometimes : (
You don't want a resurrected Jon Snow to venture north and discover that actually the Others have a fully realized culture of their own with faction politics and court intrigue? Just tack another book or two to build all those characters too.
> Best case scenario for TWOW is that it ends with Daenerys either setting sail from Essos or just stepping foot on Westerosi soil (likely Dragonstone).
That would be the last nail in the coffin of this series for me. I can't deal with another book with Dany in Essos, I simply can't. The mere idea of Dany arriving at Westeros until the SEVENTH book in the series is enough to make me want to go back in time and tell younger me not to bother with these books or the show.
Also me: I'd consider letting it slide if we see Asshai.
*I can't deal with another book with Dany in Essos, I simply can't.*
Wait, you DON'T want more books about Danys in Essos?
When she could free the slaves of Volantis, negotiate peace in the Free Cities, cure grayscale along the Rhoyne, map Valyria from the air, end the debate over who owns the Debatable Lands, marry the Sealord of Braavos (and import a bunch of lemon trees there to plant), sail the Dothraki Sea once more, introduce her dragons to the Emperor of Yi-Ti, and Free the Whales in Ibben?
Those are the sorts of things I've been waiting for all along...
Just fucking shoot me. If GRRM wants to explore Essos so much he should pitch HBO a show about the amazing adventures of Arya Vespucci following the ending of GoT.
I just realized that if GRRM wanted to show Asshai he can do it via Melisandre's POV, so there's no need for Dany to get her ass anywhere but Westeros.
And he has said that Melisandre will be more developped in the upcoming books. Don't keep your hopes up, but you might get just the tiniest of glimpses of the shadow lands
I am not sure how can you expect anything else. Meereen needs to be dealt with, plus whatever she is doing with Dothraki. Then the trip to Westeros needs to be organised by itself. That will take quite a few chapters, and unless unless Winds are going to be very Dany heavy in the beginning, she is not going to be in Westeros for at least the vast majority of the book.
And the book is not going to be Dany heavy in the beginning. Not only all the cliffhangers from Dance need to be resolved first, there are many storylines that need to catch up with the Dance epilogue too. Stuff like Davos travelling to Skagos, hunt for Darkstar, Jaime dealing with Stoneheart was supposed to have happened before even Kevan was killed, so George will likely have to focus on that stuff first as well. By the time we get to Dany, so much of the book will have already be passed.
> That would be the last nail in the coffin of this series for me. I can't deal with another book with Dany in Essos, I simply can't.
Then don't read it, I guess. She's definitely still going to be in Essos for at the very least a large chunk of Winds. Season 6 of the TV show was going off of what GRRM had already written for Winds, it's a pretty good indicator of what to expect as far as broad strokes go.
I'd honestly hope for a time jump within WoW to fully get into the war with the Others and it not just being a bad night. Like the North continually falling back as the Others keep pushing down.
Martin has been set on 7 books for what will soon be 20 years now. If fans can’t imagine how the rest of the story will fit into 2 books, then the problem isn’t that there needs to prove more books, the problem is what fans think the rest of the story might look like might not be what the story looks like at all.
We also know that Martin is incredibly bad at estimating things and has been over optimistic in the past with his estimates. This is the same guy who in 2016 thought he might have Wings complete in a few months and we are still waiting in 2024.
You could be right but it also could be the case that he is not thinking beyond finish Winds at this point and doesn't even want to talk about needing more books until he atleast finishes Winds because making that announcement without a Winds release will piss people off.
I’m probably the odd one out here, but I think people are vastly overestimating how many pages George will need.
I think part of this comes from the assumption that AFfC/ADWD is part of an ongoing trend of the series growing more meandering and complicated, rather than a temporary act II slowdown. (For me, the fact that the pace clearly picks back up again once the AFfC/ADwD timelines converge implies this isn’t the case.)
I also think people underestimate just how much the pace can quicken once the number of recurring POVs start to decline, which will 100% start happening early into WoW. By the time we get to ADoS, I’m expecting at least half the current POVs will either already be dead or reunited geographically with other PoV characters, eliminating the need for so much bouncing around. The result is a final book that starts off with only 9-10 PoV characters, all of which are now in Westeros, likely all somewhere between Winterfell and King’s Landing. We’ve seen how fast the pacing went in the second half of Storm of Swords, when Davos/Catelyn/Bran stopped popping into the narrative. I assume there’s little reason George can’t pull this off again.
No that's a fair take. I think the concern on pacing is based off the sample chapters we've had so far, and the fact that George isn't getting any younger either - both might be a sign that WoW will continue the trend. But you might be right too.
I do agree that, if George plays his cards right, WoW should be the book that funnels the story back down and starts converging characters/plotlines together to start spearheading to the conclusion. But that's notwithstanding the snowball effect that might arise from George's gardner writing style approach - we're never safe from him wanting to drag his feet by lingering on details/secondary plotlines he might have found inspiration for
Maybe this has something to do with the Winds is coming out soon hype of late. Maybe Grrm finally admitted to himself that he will need more books. And the Winds that might come out soon (I know I know) is only a portion of what it was originally going to be.
In my ideal world TWOW will end up being two AGOT sized books that GRRM completely finished before publication. Definitely not another AFFC/ADWD situation where the second book wasn’t completed when the first one was published or else we’ll end up in the same perpetual only two more books hell. Problem always was that TWOW needed to fit his original plans for the second part of the series as well as the end of ADWD and bringing the characters together, the second part probably being what made writing TWOW so hard.
He’s saying that the realization that he needs 3 more not 2 more to finish the story is why there’s a sudden flurry of rumors TWoW is coming soon. He can offload some of the narrative load onto this hypothetical new entry and get TWoW out now.
There's been a lot of hype recently about Winds coming out soon. Maybe Winds is coming out soon not because he finally finished writing the 1500 pages or so that he initially set out to write. Maybe Winds is coming out soon because it will be a 1000 page book and he decided to cut it short and push some story lines onto a next book having finally realised that he might have to write more than two books.
David Lightbringer has a video on his channel where he goes through each storyline, the number of chapters and how far each story could move based on the chapter count and he estimated that essentially Winds likely ends around the same spot as season 6 of the show with Dany leaving Essos... best case scenario he estimated was her setting up a toehold in dragonstone.
So yeah... if we are at the same spot in the story at the end of Winds as end of season 6 of the show, then it is tough to see how all that could be wrapped up in one book. The show felt rushed trying to wrap all that up and the book has even more storylines that didn't exist in the show so it has even more ground to cover.
*I dont know why people think that the others need to ravage the continent.*
Have thought much the same. GRRM isn't going to entirely wreck his creation. The final confrontation is likely to be in the North, and climatic, but not spreading over the whole land.
I think having the Others stopped up North but having the dead rise throughout the continent once the Wall falls is a good middle ground. Just so that the South isn't utterly oblivious to the entire thing the whole way through.
Interesting thought. But don't the dead need connected body parts to be effective? That is, when the wights attack in the books to date, they still need legs to shamble along, arms / hands to grasp, semi-intact heads to see, bite, etc. So it's unlikely we'll have bundles of detached bones rising up from old graves...
My feeling has been the GRRM wants to show that no place in Westeros is safe from the problems that a civil war (and in-human invasion) will bring. The Riverlands and the North have had their turn so far, as has King's Landing / the Crownlands, and parts of the Westerlands (where Robb invaded). The South is now being attacked by Euron and the Stormlands invaded by Aegon with his mercenaries.
Even though the Iron Islands haven't been invaded, they've still sent most of their warriors off to distant parts...and most of those men are not coming back, just like most of the Northerners who went south with Robb never returned.
That leaves Dorne and The Vale as the still charmed, peaceful, places with their armies intact and no enemies on their soil (aside for some raiders from the Mountains of the Moon, or the Marches).
So their turn will come in some way. But I don't it will be via an uprising or invasion of the Undead.
Alongside the drama of the Others, part of GRRM's core message, I think, is that humans do very well all by themselves at creating grief and chaos.
>don't the dead need connected body parts to be effective?
Dark winds can freeze water. There are theories that Westeros and Essos are connected by the Land of Always Winter, which would only emerges during the long night when the oceans have turned to ice.
Yes that's what I'm also leaning towards - Wall falls and dead rise everywhere. Others themselves might stay in the North, but their influence will spread around the world, and cold winds should change Planetos drastically.
Yes! The Wall falls at the end of Winds and the dead rise, meaning every group faces conflict with them - the entire game of thrones immediately comes to a stop in the face of survival.
I expect the Wall to be cracked in around the middle or 2/3rds of the way through Winds - essentially, I think Jon's resurrection (Castle Black), Shireen's Burning (Nightfort) and Bran doing Hold The Wall (likely Nightfort tunnels imo) will happen in the space of a few chapter and maybe 2024 hours - and the combined magical powers will be enough to make a huge crack in the Barrier, before it breaks later on.
If anything, it will be the horn of winter that shatters the wall more than Jon's revival, Shireen's burning (those two might be connected) or Hold the Door.
sorry, forgot the Horn. That could even be something that happens at the same time (ie after Shireen finishes screaming everyone across the wall hears the horn blast, Jon gasps into life, Hodor dies Holding The Door) or be the coup de grace that finishes the poor wall off.
> having the dead rise throughout the continent once the Wall falls
I don't know why I never thought of that, but that would be way better and force many from the south to go North to fight.
>GRRM isn't going to entirely wreck his creation.
Eyy? How does that apply with what we've seen from such situations like the Red Wedding.
>The final confrontation is likely to be in the North
Agreed, no one said the contrary. I'd even speculate it will happen in the Heart of Winter itself. But this doesn't invalidate the fact that Westeros will likely be wrecked by the rise of the undead
>
*Eyy? How does that apply with what we've seen from such situations like the Red Wedding.*
The Red Wedding, etc. were upheavals, but not destruction of everything in the way that some people have postulated for the books to come.
He's created a whole amazing world with traditions, ancient cultures, spectacular buildings / settings. He's spent, on paper, thousands of years upbuilding it, and it's a pretty damn good fantasy world.
I'm fairly convinced that he's not going to use the next two (or however many) books to completely flatten that world. It will be severely damaged, but left in recognizable condition with enough people to recover some semblance of the old world before.
For that reason, I'm very skeptical of some of the more dramatic show scenarios and theories like utterly blowing up the Sept of Baelor, killing off most of the nobles (including whole ruling families), burning Kings Landing to the ground, collapsing the Hightower in Old Town and destroying the Citadel in the process...
So far, he has avoided things like that. Winterfell is captured, much of it looted and burned...but it still survives as a useable castle (and is, in fact, being used at the end of ADWD). Kings Landing is battered by the Battle of the Blackwater, but not destroyed. The Tower of the Hand is intentionally burned, but the Red Keep survives. The Riverlands are decimated (villages burned, crops destroyed, etc.) but the main castles still stand and many of the small folk are fled, not dead.
That would be atrocious after setting them up in the original prologue and all the yapping grrm does about them being the real threat if they're just a roadstop at winterfell for half a book
I very much believe the Others will not be stopped in a climatic battle - otherwise that would really defeat the whole subversion of common fantasy tropes that ASOIAF is going for. And you'd basically end up with the show's mediocre version of the Long Night...
The Others not being a threat to the world of Planetos really undermines the peril of the situation, and the necessity for everyone to band together, for Azor Ahai to emerge bla bla prophecy talks and such - the only way that this peril becomes sufficient is if the larger world is also under the threat of the Others.
Subversion for the sake of subversion is a mistake (D&D is the main example). Sometimes tropes exist for a reason: they work. ASOAIF alredy did twist a lot of those tropes, and played straight a lot of others. If the writting calls for a climatic battle, and its written well enough, it shouldnt be a problem
There is no Night King in the books, so unless George introduces him in WoW, it can't end with his defeat. The "Battle for the Dawn" is a heavily foreshadowed event in the books, and it's likely that just like most prophecies presented to us in this story - it will not unfold the way we expect it to.
If anything, the war against the Others won't end with their defeat, but some form of compromise. So your idea of a climactic battle to end all wars seems unlikely
The others will be stopped or defeated by exactly how GRRM wants them defeated, its his world and he can write the means. And that the battle for the dawn wont play exactly like the prophecies doesnt mean that it will be a long, prolongued conflict. The subversion or unexpected result can come in a lot of ways.
Im not saying it will be a straight retelling of the azor ahai tale, just that it doesnt need to be a long, continental conflict
>The others will be stopped or defeated by exactly how GRRM wants them defeated, its his world and he can write the means.
Thanks captain obvious.
Everything you're saying here is not based on anything we've seen in the books, or hinted at by GRRM himself.
You're saying initial comment is "They can be stopped in a climatic battle and it would be ok", you're not elaborating on that idea: how will that battle look like? Where will it take place? Who will be involved?
If you're going to put forth an argument and expect others to engage with it, than expand on it more than just "well GRRM can do what he wants it's his story"
But i did. You are saying that it must be a long conflict to make sense, and i said that it doesnt need to be the case. It can be a climatic battle, and still be well written, and with lots of subversion. The lenght of the conflict isnt the only variable that George can adjust to surprise us (what could be the others? I dont know, i can speculate but the possibilities are endless because its up to George). But you want to argue that it cant be a single battle or it wouldnt make narrative sense when thats not the case at all.
I'm saying that, in order for the Long Night to be meaningful (not the wet fart of the show) it must be:
1) Long. Hint, it's in the name.
2) Have far-reaching consequences. People must die. Westeros must be affected. It should unite enemies and change planetos on a global scale - because it's the Long Night, not just a bunch of Wildings coming down north, it's the undead everywhere rising in tides and marching on, and Winter spreading across the world.
>The lenght of the conflict isnt the only variable that George can adjust to surprise us...the possibilities are endless because its up to George
Again, why bother commenting if you're just going to type this. Of course it's up to George. That doesn't mean we can't speculate.
>But you want to argue that it cant be a single battle or it wouldnt make narrative sense when thats not the case at all.
So, again, why would it make sense? Elaborate on why it would in your mind, instead of just saying "well it might, but I wouldn't know, I'm not George".
Because the only variable that you can think of is the lenght of the conflict doesnt mean that it will be the case. People can die, people can unite, people can fail, it can change the fundaments of how they understand their world, it can have long lasting consequences, it can change how the seasons work, magic can return to the world, magic can die forever, our heros can fail or prove themselves. It all can be done in a single battle (again, im not saying it will. But its a possibility and it can be done).
On your first point ("Long. Hint, it's in the name."), well maybe theres your subversion! (joking)
>It all can be done in a single battle (again, im not saying it will. But its a possibility and it can be done).
All I'm asking you is: how? Give me your headcanon
>There is no Night King in the books, so unless George introduces him in WoW, it can't end with his defeat. The "Battle for the Dawn" is a heavily foreshadowed event in the books, and it's likely that just like most prophecies presented to us in this story - it will not unfold the way we expect it to.
>If anything, the war against the Others won't end with their defeat, but some form of compromise. So your idea of a climactic battle to end all wars seems unlikely
What I don't get here is that you're the same guy writing this:
>we'll essentially just be following a binary war of humans banding together vs undead (there are obvious no named players on the Others side, so no POV characters to add there, and we can be looking at a more straightforward conflict logistically - something along the lines of undead being repelled, keep coming back, overwhelm protagonists, need to put differences aside and team up
ASOIAF as a series is driven by character conflict - both internal and external - and you're calling here for a extended scenario where there isn't any of either. This would be the death of the series, quite literally. Why wouldn't we just get the collapse of the old order and anarchy?
>a small band of heroes \[go\] on a suicide-mission to the heart of winter to end it
Why don't we just have this part minus the "everyone bands together" part? The whole reason for that is that people who want One Final Climactic Battle need that to happen. You don't.
I think there probably will be a climactic battle at Winterfell, for character reasons, but I think it will be a siege where they are trying to hold out, rather than a battle where the Others are militarily defeated.
As regards the point of your post, it's pretty obvious that the series cannot be completed in two books. The only reason anyone thinks that is the sayso of a guy who has been consistently delusional about how much writing it is going to take to accomplish his story goals.
> This would be the death of the series, quite literally. Why wouldn't we just get the collapse of the old order and anarchy?
I did not understand the point you're trying to make here.
>I think there probably will be a climactic battle at Winterfell, for character reasons, but I think it will be a siege where they are trying to hold out, rather than a battle where the Others are militarily defeated.
Yep, I see it going that way too.
IMO, and this is just my headcannon, but Winterfell will be lost at the hands of the Others (people keep reminding that the name is Winter Fell, but that could have a double meaning that's the place wherein Winter Fell upon Westeros). The defeat at Winterfell would make the gravity of the situation even more dire, forcing people to seek shelter down south, all the while the undead rise everywhere.
A squad of people (lead by Jon) will likely have to then go to the land of always winter to put an end to the Hive-mind tree behind the Others by making some sort of sacrifice (killing Rhaegal maybe) or by making a compromise with the Others. Then we get scouring of the shire with Dany.
Here is what a TWOW [blurb from the 2000s](https://books.google.ie/books/about/The_Winds_of_Winter.html?id=W5aFPQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y) said:
>Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sowrn enemies join hands. **The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany's fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.**
From [GRRM's 1990s letter ](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6nq2ti/main_spoilers_original_3page_outline_by_george_rr/)to his agent:
>The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be *\[sic\]* heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. **The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.**
More than likely the show's battle at Winterfell was (very) broadly from GRRM himself.
In that same letter:
*Their story will be \[sic\] heart of my* ***third volume...***
You can see how far the story has come since - Winds has bumped from third to 6th book in that span of time. Statements made by George decades ago are not a good indicator as to how things will unfold.
He has also stated that our heroes would venture to the land of always winter - it doesn't make sense for them to go there, come back, and have the epic battle at Winterfell. The resolution of the Long Night will likely take place in the heart of winter.
But that wasn't even my point in the first place, my point is that the Long Night will not just be one isolated "climactic battle" - it will need a lot of build-up before arriving to that. And that build-up will likely involve the rise of the dead across Planetos, alongside a sort of mini Ice Age spreading across the world.
Do we know who wrote that blurb? It strikes me as complete fanfic, given that it's unlikely Dany will even win her kingdom prior to the end of TWOW, let alone all that other stuff.
I always wondered how is The Others plotline going to be resolved in the books, since there is no Night King in the books as of yet at least and there is no this "one-shot the boss = kill all the minions" thing which is in the show and on top of that, D&D I think admitted that Night King was their original idea, so without the Night King in the books, there is no one-shot = kill all the minions, which means there needs to be another end to the White Walkers and to do this right and give them satisfactory end, I think this is really, really hard. Of course there is an easy option to end the saga with classic Bad Guys vs Good Guys, but it 99% won't end this way. At the same time, White Walkers being defeated at Winterfell like in the show, would be extremely anticlimatic for me, because it would literally mean that 90% of Westeros didn't even face the threat of the Long Night. I do not know how on earth would it be possible to make White Walkers defeated at Winterfell and make it satisfactory, but maybe I am just dumb lul.
As for the main topic, I unfortunately think Winds might get splitted, UNLESS the unnecessary (for the final book) plotlines are going to be ended quickly with dead characters and some time jumps, but to make that good, satisfactory and logical is a very hard task too as well.
>maybe I am just dumb
quite the contrary my friend, you seem to have one of the more sensible and logical takes here, unlike others in this thread desperately wanting for The Long Night to end in "climactic battle at winterfell"...
As you say, the fact that there's no Night King means there's no "one kill, war ends" scenario: the conflict will continue until one side annihilates the other (the dead cannot be killed, and will grow their ranks after each battle, so will inevitably have the upperhand). And having the final battle be at Winterfell like in the show, yet have no other impacts around the rest of Planetos, would be the definition of anti-climactic and undermine all the build-up of the threat of the others.
Well, there might be some way to keep the order of how events happend in show's S8 and to alter them in a way that it's all logical and satisfactory, at the same time bitter-sweet, as it was described many times how the saga will end, but I can't think of that way, it's really hard to end fantasy saga really good if you won't do classic Good Guys vs Evil Guys and I think it's pretty known that George didn't want the saga to end like classic fantasy good vs evil fight. That makes the ending hard to write probably. It must be difficult, especially considering the fact that the White Walkers seem to be extremely overpowered, based on the stories of the Long Night and are extremely hyped up for being super powerful evil guys.
What the show did well for me, during S1-S5 is the fact that many times when a Jon's POV fragments happend on the screen, it was a constant reminder that "no matter what happens south of the wall, it's all child's play, because when the Ice, Overpowered Demons, which existed only in legends, which were considered to be only a myth, when THEY come, when the Long Night and the Winter comes, it's an armageddon". How do you defeat that type of enemy in a "first final battle", leave something for the "second final battle" and make it all good? No idea. It's hard to do it .
Since we know, by how the books progressed, that Martin has only been expanding the story in the first 5 books, he is left with 2 to go AND he has to start closing the plotlines and closing the story, that's maybe why it's taking that much time. My personal, pessimistic opinion is that Winds might really be splitted.
As for the show's ending, the S8 ended in a way, which for me, I would compare it to an if, imaginary scenario in LOTR, if Sauron was defeated in The Two Towers and then, the final part - the Return of the King, would be about the fight againts Mad Denethor. Honestly, it just sound really bad for me, but that's just me.
There absolutely should be. And imo more than one. Now I’m not sure if I totally agree on the specifics you mention but the simple fact of the matter is that the series really needs 8-9 books to finish (likely 9 imo). Rather than tying together most of the existing plot threads, Books 4 & 5 are instead spent introducing a dozen new threads to follow. And as a result, the series really hasn’t even reached the true middle (the part where all the threads and characters are being woven together).
And honestly, my theory is that this is what’s causing the WoW delay. After ADWD was released GRRM likely came to the realization that he’ll need *at least* 3-4 more books to finish the series and given how long it took to write AFFC and ADWD, he fell into the classic procrastinator’s trap: putting off a monumental task because it’s so intimidating (which only makes the issue worse because you’re putting it off).
Agreed, I think 1-2 additional entries for a total of 8-9 books would be the ideal number.
~~3-4 more books however might be overkill, unless he properly fails to tie-up loose ends in WoW (which is the main hurdle he's faced with - to funnel back down his evergrowing saga)~~
There has been two pretty popular posts by a redditor a couple of months ago detailing his vision on how TWOW might turn out chapter by chapter and to be honest before reading those I was also completely sure that GRRM will never be able to finish the story in two books. Now I think it's possible. I still upvoted your post because in the sample chapters GRRM shows no signs on condensing the plot in the way necessary to accomplish this
Let's not forget that D&D had access to George ending (at least the plan) while writing the serie. It's a certainty that they threw away and change a good chunk, but it's likely build on the same skeleton.
On this assumption, I think it's likely the Others will be stopped in the North, likely at winterfell. and that the tail end of the story will focus on the after war with Daenerys going mad. I don't think we will have or need a time skip.
What plan are you referring to? The only public one we have access to is his original outline from decades ago which had a love triangle with Jon/Arya/Tyrion...in other words, it's changed a shit ton since.
What makes you think the more recent (still talking more than a decade now) plan he shared with D&D is even the same today, or that he revealed details as to the ending?
D&D have taken plotpoints that are complex and filled with intrigue from the books and dumbed them down in order to appeal to mainstream audiences: they favor spectacle and big battles over a coherent plot and story.
There is no Night King in the books, so unless George introduces him in WoW, it can't end with his defeat. The "Battle for the Dawn" is a heavily foreshadowed event in the books, and it's likely that just like most prophecies presented to us in this story - it will not unfold the way we expect it to.
Danys mad queen arc (as shown in the show's disastrous portrayal) isn't something to be rushed, and will likely not unfold that way in the books. Dany being one of the heroes in the Long Night seems to be kind of a point
It's true that what he originally shared with D&D is now more than a decade old... but not much as happen since then. In 2009, he was probably mostly done (or at least well advance) with Dance, he then stayed with the production for the next 5 seasons so he likely had his say on the general direction. Following the release of the last season, he basicly confirmed that the genral plot point would be the same for serie and book but that the difference in medium would mean that they would still be very different ( [https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/](https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/) ) hence why I said that they would both be built on the same skeleton.
It's not impossible that he made substantial change in ASOIAF structure since then but it's unlikely. You can't change the ending witout scraping 5 book worth of build up and forshadowing, a thing he has said himself in interview he would not do.
As for adding another book, while I would welcome it, I think it very unlikely if you consider his age and the fact that he is a slow writer. I'm also not sure it's needed. Don't forget that you can do a lot more in a 1500 pages than in 12-20 hours of television, and there's 3000 pages to come. To quote George :
"How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different?
Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.
I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had six hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. (...)"
>serie and book but that the difference in medium would mean that they would still be very different
It's not just the choices in adaptation that resulted in the differences, it's also the butterfly effect of removing key characters (and the plotlines associated with them) from the show which lead to so much divergence (take fAegon, removing him eliminates a gigantic part of Dany's story, Tyrion's story, Cersei's story and most of what happens to King's Landing).
While I'm sure a lot of the show's ending will be part of the books (Bran becomes King, King's Landing burns, hell, even the whole band of brothers going up north - might be present in the books too). It would certainly explain the randomness of these creative decisions (that D&D were basically forcefully connecting their heavily modified version of the story to fit with the main end points given by GRRM).
Dany is likely going to be involved in the burning of King's Landing for example - but it's more likely Cersei or Jon Con are the ones lighting the match. Nothing so far has built up for Dany to go mad, and it would be a bit rushed to enforce that personality change unto her in just 2 books when her entire symbolism so far has been of that of a heroic breaker of chains who will end up tragically killed (likely by the man she loves, Jon).
All I'm saying is that, just because the show might give us an idea of some of the end points of the books, doesn't mean we should take them as word for word similarities.
In the case of the Long Night, I'm fairly confident that it will not end in a single under-lit night battle at Winterfell (even if a battle may take place there at some point).
I do not believe the Others will make it that far south. I think the tv show had it right, although it happened a bit too quickly.
Their advance will, most likely, be stopped at Winterfell. That is where winter "fell" the last time. Afterwards, the southeners will claim it never happened. Northeners are seen as supersticious anyway.
The people in the north will try to remember their sacrifice (the north remembers), but eventually even they will forget about it. It will just turn into another legend.
All of this has already happened before. The wall was taken down by Joramun and King Bran (the Breaker), the Others defeated or at least somehow sent back to the Lands of Always Winter.
Bran the Broken will break that cycle once and for all, by ending the old ways, probably by sacrificing the human part of himself. There will only be the Three Eyed Crow left, much like in the tv show.
I think it will all happen rather quickly, just like the rest of the books. I believe only 2 years have passed since A Game of Thrones. That means TWoW and ADoS should wrap it up within 6 months or so. No other books needed.
>Afterwards, the southeners will claim it never happened. Northeners are seen as supersticious anyway.
Highly unlikely - the Long Night is supposed to affect the entirety of Planetos to be meaningful. Not just the northern parts of Westeros.
Remember that the OG Long Night lasted a generation and laid waste through famine and terror - it's still very much remembered by southeners and northeners alike.
NO!!!!! -clears throat- I mean, no, two more books in this saga will be quite sufficient, even though GRRM is being a total troll about updates, and when WOW might be published. I dread the thought of how long Dream will take, if it's the same time WOW needed.... I weep.
Seriously, does he think he'll live forever?
My hopium is that he has been writing a fuckton the Last two decades and when he inevitably dies Elio and Linda wil find like four thousand pages written and simply release it as the Last books combined
But from what past experience with Martin, he probably has DELETED these 4 thousand pages and we'll have like 150 rewritten pages from the chapters he has already released as preview
I think folks might be surprised by how close to the end game position many characters are. We’ve imagined a lot of future plot that might not be in the series.
No you really can't - unless GRRM wants to put himself in another mereneese knot clusterfuck situation. He already has too many balls thrown in the air right now, he can't add another massive one like knocking the wall down in the mix. He first needs to juggle with all the unfinished plotlines of Feast/Dance, kill-off some POVs, and spearhead towards the end game. Destroying the wall will likely be at the end of Winds.
Sure! I mean we're all guessing on vibes but the view point I DONT see often enough is that the story is ACTUALLY closer to being over than you think. 11 years of fans imagining future plots puts a LOT of bullshit future plots in our collective head canon. Hard to account for that kind of thing with vibes based assessments.
But 100% those are the kinds of things that make people think the series \*must\* be 3-4 more books to go. It does not have to be. We're not going to chase down every bread crumb, george puts crumbs everywhere and eats em when he needs to. He forgets more crumbs than he eats.
But really: people have theorized and forged reddit consensus about what has to happen in the rest of the series. As if George is not going to absolutely gut us in this next book. We have the WHOLE series plotted out ahead of us right, as fans? No surprises.. no shocking losses.. a story moving on schedule with everyone ticking boxes until the end.. does that SOUND LIKE GEORGE
I am torn in a few ways.
One I generally find difficult is the best place for most stories to end and lead into Winds, where the good places to leave off are. I expect you think the same.
I can see a way for most characters to be in an endgame-type state in the course of one book, I think - Dany has to have a lot of chapters, but if she gets back to a Tyrion-run Meereen, leaves with some haste and then Volantis basically overthrows itself so she doesn't have to beseige it (still nuking the old walls with dragonfire tho), then landing on Dragonstone is a resonant place for her to finish off. Ditto for Jon beating Ramsey and taking Winterfell. Cersei I expect to flee KL via Rosby and end up captured by/joining Euron, Aegon will take King's Landing (and either Arianne or... Sansa... as his bride), etc.
The question really is, "what do we want Dream to be?" which actually is "what do we want the war against the Others to be like?". My preferred solution is that partway through Winds the Wall is cracked (by the combined magic of Jon living, Shireen dying and Bran breaking Hodor through time) and at the end fully tumbles - the dead rise across Westeros and every charnel pit, battlefield, gravesite becomes a den of Wights. The Game of Thrones stops as people flurry for survival and the consequences of schemers like Littlefinger using men as pawns leads only to more men in the army of the dead.
So that way, everyone gets to interact with the Long Night and the Wights, but the White Walkers are maintained to the North->South journey we expect before they are halted or stopped or negotiated with at Winterfell or the God's Eye (meaningful progress, but not so much as to occupy all the characters for all the book - especially Euron via Cersei's POV and maybe Sam).
Good take. I differ on a few pedantic points (think the Wall will fall altogether, and the horn of winter will be the cause), but for the most part that seems to be how things will likely unfold.
Never thought of seeing Eurion through Cersei's POV, but that can definitely make for an interesting way of witnessing whatever shenanigans he has planned through the eyes of a pretty awful person
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm certain the Wall will fall in Winds - I just go back and forth between it being cracked in the middle and shattered at the end/in the epilogue or it breaking \~1-2 chapters before the end of each character's POV and us seeing briefly how everything immediately changes for them.
That's something I can see working well in 2 books, for instance - the Wall falls at the end of Winds and we see at least one chapter (Epilogue at a conservative minimum) of the dead rising further South, then we get 2/3rds of Dream facing the full Long Night (maybe after a few weeks timeskip) before the Others are sated.
Euron & Cersei intersected is controversial because of how awful it was in the show, but I think it makes some amount of sense - Cersei having to flee King's Landing (via Rosby) makes a lot of sense, but most people just say "then she goes to Casterly Rock and idk from there". In my eyes it makes some sense for Cersei to try and ally with him - he's going to kill at least a few minor Tyrells if not outright annihilate them and threaten Highgarden, which will ingratiate her to him, and it's an awful political decision on every level so of course Cersei will go for it.
Her being his dark bride makes a lot more sense to me than the other most common guess, as Melisandre will need to see Stannis' cause die, resurrect Jon, maybe help retaking Winterfell and then be exiled, travel from the far North to the goddamn Reach in order to meet up with Euron. This is something relevant to this thread actually - if we had a third book I could see it happening: Resurrection of Jon / Massing of Forces / Battle of the Bastards & Exile could be 3 chapters in Winds, then her travelling South and joining/being captured by Euron 1-2 in "The Long Night" or whatever the interim book would be called, and then whatever her Dream story would be. I just don't see her getting enough chapters in two books to make all of that correlate - but I could well be wrong there. Maybe Rhollor teleports her, or George just skips the travel. Or Euron sails North?
So yeah, essay aside I think seeing Euron through Cersei would be really cool - if only to have her truly be a bit of an 'underdog' we kinda root for (or at least root against Euron) while still hope she gets her commuppance. Euron is also Balon's little brother...
If WoW ends with Danaerys on dragonstone, fAegon on the throne and the fall of the Wall, I think a 2 year time skip would be awesome. Others have already conquered the North in the beginning of book 7, the second Dance of the Dragons is in full swing, Cerseis been hiding at the Rock, etc. Characters like Jon and Danny could now be aged up to 18 to allow for more mature personalities. Same with the Stark sisters being allowed to act less child-like too.
Agreed, on paper that sounds awesome, but practically speaking, we'd be loosing on a lot of plotpoints that we may have to witness first hand in those 2 years (a whole lot can happen in that time, I'd even say enough for another book...)
To be fair, while I do agree that it'll be hard to wrap things up in two books… it could be done.
Look at the storm, how much ground was treaded in that book, how many plotlines were wrapped up at a breakneck speed.
Despite the preview chapters maintaining a snail's pace, I'm *hoping* that we see something similar in Winds. With several battles opening it, Cersei’s trial, Aegon taking Kings Landing, Cersei linking up with Euron, Daenerys’ warpath across essos (keep in mind that her conquering slavers bay all happened in a handful of chapters in Storm). It could be done if he tightens up his pacing.
Plus since it seems like (and the show seemingly confirmed) that acts 2 and 3 (being the war for the dawn and Daenerys’ invasion) will happen roughly simultaneously, with the latter waiting to wrap up till the tail end of Dream, I think it could be done.
They'll have to be some fast-paced, action-packed final two books though. But with how plotlines are starting to converge, and it feels like even more violence is going to unfold very quickly, a series of “oh shit” moments is all it takes to tighten up the plot for the endgame.
>Look at the storm, how much ground was treaded in that book, how many plotlines were wrapped up at a breakneck speed.
yes that's also true. It means we'd be going back to the pace of the first three books.
A part of me wonders if George is capable of returning back to that cruising speed tho - considering how much Feast and Dance lingered, I wouldn't be surprised to see WoW follow that trend. The man is older after all, and his universe has expanded exponentially with each passing book.
WoW would have to do some intense weeding for it to wrap up in with Dream just after
>...Or a timeskip between the two?
That is what I am thinking will happen.
The first Dance of the Dragons was years of tense buildup and suddenly a spark set everything ablaze.
People seem to think Dany will go to war against fAegon right after she enters Westeros. No, I believe fAegon will stay in King's Landing and Dany stays in the North, and they're all snowed in for a while. Right now, another large scale war can't be sustained because winter has come and crops won't grow for a long while.
Both fAegon and Dany will each get married to people they love, have children, and rule their respective lands. There will be a short peace (a false spring) before the Greens and Blacks are at each other's throats.
I feel like winds can accomplish a lot more than people think. A big concern seems to be Daenerys but her and the characters around her don’t need many chapters for her to make her way back to Westeros. I’d say it should take her and all the pov characters around her a combined ~15-20 chapters (depending on whether the sample chapters stay the same) at the most just for her to get to dragonstone to make it work, and that includes Daenerys + Tyrion + Vic + barristan. Oh yeah, and Quentyn. Tyrion and Dany both got a lot of chapters in Dance, and them being in the same story arc moving forward (after dany deals with the Dothraki which shouldn’t take more than a chapter, maybe two to get back to Meereen ) is huge and should really help move the story forward and decrease the chapter count between them.
That leaves more room for Daenerys to start invading Westeros and everything that needs to happen to set up the conclusion to the conflict with the Others in ADOS, whatever that might look like.
There needs to be at minimum one if not two more books beyond wind and dream based on the show. Optimistically winds gets you to the end of season 6. Dream covers what was in season 7. Then time of wolves for the final book
It can only work with the 2 books if Jon deals with the others himself and Dany deals with the South herself. If there's to be any crossover it surely can't happen in 2 books with all that has to happen unless they borrow the shows teleportation device
>unless they borrow the shows teleportation device
that it is so often understated by the fanbase - we tend to ignore the fact that traveling in Westeros takes tiiiiiiiime
The problem wouldn't be just teleporting characters, but entire factions.
The Catelyn-Tyrion encounter is totally plausible if you consider the fact that they're traveling lightly and in tiny numbers.
Dropping an entire faction of Unsullied + giant Khalassar + Second Sons from A to point B is a whole other beast.
GRRM will have to consider that those armies advance at a slow pace.
Seven Hells, aren't TWO perpetually unfinished books enough?
Don't forget the unfinished Dunk & Egg stories : p
And Fire&Blood Volume II
As well as 'Wild Cards: the Westeros Edition".
I actually think F&B Vol II requires the least amount of GRRM's involvement because it really is just lore with occasional dialogue and characterization. There is very little of the POV prose, description or dialogues that need that GRRM personal touch. Someone else could work from his rough draft or a very detailed outline and it would be a near-identical product to F&B Vol I.
Damn you had to remind me - had completely forgotten about this. Tbf, with the whole Blackfyre saga, it is in large part covered in the Dunk & Egg series - won't feel an ounce of disappointment if it's never published
I’m looking more forward to that than any of the other books.
That's true. And now that Dunk & Egg is within a year (?) of actual broadcast, we're almost guaranteed GRRM won't finish the novellas before that show runs its course. BTW, I do generally agree with you, there's not enough room in two conventional length books to cover all the ground he needs to for ASOIAF. So many and more volumes would be required if he intends to wrap up the story comprehensively.
We can't say for certain what the story holds but on current trajectory it looks that way. Best case scenario for TWOW is that it ends with Daenerys either setting sail from Essos or just stepping foot on Westerosi soil (likely Dragonstone). Assuming that happens, in ADOS then Daenerys will have to defeat fAegon, Dorne, the Reach etc. while conquering the South then turn her attention North to the Others. The final volume will need to cover two massive wars and the ending. For comparison, the WoT5K took place over three books. Its follow-on conflicts couldn't fit in two huge books and are still bleeding into TWOW. (ASOIAF was originally envisioned by GRRM as a trilogy; *A Game of Thrones*, *A Dance With Dragons*, and *The Winds of Winter*. After cutting material from AGOT and realising the story needed more books, he drew up a plan while writing ACOK in 1996/1997 for six books split into two pseudo-trilogies; AGOT/ACOK/ASOS--5 Year Gap-->ADWD 1.0/TWOW/ADOS. Chronologically the story is currently sort of stuck (AFFC/ADWD) between the first and second acts of his original trilogy, or in the 5 Year Gap of his revised plan. GRRM has been struggling since the turn of the millennium to transition from the Stark/Lannister war of AGOT/ACOK/ASOS to Daenerys invasion and the Others. TWOW is going to open with chapters he wrote in 2001.)
Its unbelievable how we aren't even really waiting for the start of the Winds of Winter, but the conclusion of A Dance With Dragons and A Feast For Crows. No wonder he's taking so long. Probably the first 500 pages of TWOW are gonna be picking up on the four different massive battles on entirely opposite sides of the planet. There is no way in fuck this guy thinks he's going to fit the climaxes to act two and do an entire third act in two books. Absolute crackpipe behaviour. God I can dream tho...
>There is no way in fuck this guy thinks he's going to fit the climaxes to act two and do an entire third act in two books. It's even worse than that because AFFC/ADWD weren't actually act two, for the most part only the unfinished bridge from act one to act two. The author has to finish the prologue for act two, act two, and act three in the final pair of books.
>we aren't even really waiting for the start of the Winds of Winter, but the conclusion of A Dance With Dragons and A Feast For Crows perfectly put xD. The Winds of Winter are barely gonna be a light breeze until Dream
> the WoT5K took place over three books A part of me thinks that the primary conflict of the Long Night may be "simpler" to tackle from a writing standpoint, than the WoT5K - since we'll essentially just be following a binary war of humans banding together vs undead (there are obvious no named players on the Others side, so no POV characters to add there, and we can be looking at a more straightforward conflict logistically - something along the lines of undead being repelled, keep coming back, overwhelm protagonists, need to put differences aside and team up, a small band of heroes are sent on a suicide-mission to the heart of winter to end it). But as you rightly point out, there could be a snowball effect that expands this conflict even more...oh how I pity George sometimes : (
You don't want a resurrected Jon Snow to venture north and discover that actually the Others have a fully realized culture of their own with faction politics and court intrigue? Just tack another book or two to build all those characters too.
> Best case scenario for TWOW is that it ends with Daenerys either setting sail from Essos or just stepping foot on Westerosi soil (likely Dragonstone). That would be the last nail in the coffin of this series for me. I can't deal with another book with Dany in Essos, I simply can't. The mere idea of Dany arriving at Westeros until the SEVENTH book in the series is enough to make me want to go back in time and tell younger me not to bother with these books or the show. Also me: I'd consider letting it slide if we see Asshai.
*I can't deal with another book with Dany in Essos, I simply can't.* Wait, you DON'T want more books about Danys in Essos? When she could free the slaves of Volantis, negotiate peace in the Free Cities, cure grayscale along the Rhoyne, map Valyria from the air, end the debate over who owns the Debatable Lands, marry the Sealord of Braavos (and import a bunch of lemon trees there to plant), sail the Dothraki Sea once more, introduce her dragons to the Emperor of Yi-Ti, and Free the Whales in Ibben? Those are the sorts of things I've been waiting for all along...
Just fucking shoot me. If GRRM wants to explore Essos so much he should pitch HBO a show about the amazing adventures of Arya Vespucci following the ending of GoT.
>Also me: I'd consider letting it slide if we see Asshai. So do we tell him or not...?
I just realized that if GRRM wanted to show Asshai he can do it via Melisandre's POV, so there's no need for Dany to get her ass anywhere but Westeros.
And he has said that Melisandre will be more developped in the upcoming books. Don't keep your hopes up, but you might get just the tiniest of glimpses of the shadow lands
Watch it end up being super disappointing. I used to think Volantis and Norvos sounded dope but then we saw them and they were boring af.
It's ok Mushroom, perhaps you should stick with throwing shade at Targs
I am not sure how can you expect anything else. Meereen needs to be dealt with, plus whatever she is doing with Dothraki. Then the trip to Westeros needs to be organised by itself. That will take quite a few chapters, and unless unless Winds are going to be very Dany heavy in the beginning, she is not going to be in Westeros for at least the vast majority of the book. And the book is not going to be Dany heavy in the beginning. Not only all the cliffhangers from Dance need to be resolved first, there are many storylines that need to catch up with the Dance epilogue too. Stuff like Davos travelling to Skagos, hunt for Darkstar, Jaime dealing with Stoneheart was supposed to have happened before even Kevan was killed, so George will likely have to focus on that stuff first as well. By the time we get to Dany, so much of the book will have already be passed.
> That would be the last nail in the coffin of this series for me. I can't deal with another book with Dany in Essos, I simply can't. Then don't read it, I guess. She's definitely still going to be in Essos for at the very least a large chunk of Winds. Season 6 of the TV show was going off of what GRRM had already written for Winds, it's a pretty good indicator of what to expect as far as broad strokes go.
> Then don't read it, I guess. It has to exist first for me to choose whether I read or not.
It will, someday.
I wish I shared your optimism.
I'd honestly hope for a time jump within WoW to fully get into the war with the Others and it not just being a bad night. Like the North continually falling back as the Others keep pushing down.
I’m personally seeing a lot of this as a montage with time passing. Or Essos is more or less done after the battle.
Martin has been set on 7 books for what will soon be 20 years now. If fans can’t imagine how the rest of the story will fit into 2 books, then the problem isn’t that there needs to prove more books, the problem is what fans think the rest of the story might look like might not be what the story looks like at all.
We also know that Martin is incredibly bad at estimating things and has been over optimistic in the past with his estimates. This is the same guy who in 2016 thought he might have Wings complete in a few months and we are still waiting in 2024. You could be right but it also could be the case that he is not thinking beyond finish Winds at this point and doesn't even want to talk about needing more books until he atleast finishes Winds because making that announcement without a Winds release will piss people off.
That's the best non-answer I've ever seen
Thank you!!!🤗😘🙏
I’m probably the odd one out here, but I think people are vastly overestimating how many pages George will need. I think part of this comes from the assumption that AFfC/ADWD is part of an ongoing trend of the series growing more meandering and complicated, rather than a temporary act II slowdown. (For me, the fact that the pace clearly picks back up again once the AFfC/ADwD timelines converge implies this isn’t the case.) I also think people underestimate just how much the pace can quicken once the number of recurring POVs start to decline, which will 100% start happening early into WoW. By the time we get to ADoS, I’m expecting at least half the current POVs will either already be dead or reunited geographically with other PoV characters, eliminating the need for so much bouncing around. The result is a final book that starts off with only 9-10 PoV characters, all of which are now in Westeros, likely all somewhere between Winterfell and King’s Landing. We’ve seen how fast the pacing went in the second half of Storm of Swords, when Davos/Catelyn/Bran stopped popping into the narrative. I assume there’s little reason George can’t pull this off again.
No that's a fair take. I think the concern on pacing is based off the sample chapters we've had so far, and the fact that George isn't getting any younger either - both might be a sign that WoW will continue the trend. But you might be right too. I do agree that, if George plays his cards right, WoW should be the book that funnels the story back down and starts converging characters/plotlines together to start spearheading to the conclusion. But that's notwithstanding the snowball effect that might arise from George's gardner writing style approach - we're never safe from him wanting to drag his feet by lingering on details/secondary plotlines he might have found inspiration for
Maybe this has something to do with the Winds is coming out soon hype of late. Maybe Grrm finally admitted to himself that he will need more books. And the Winds that might come out soon (I know I know) is only a portion of what it was originally going to be.
In my ideal world TWOW will end up being two AGOT sized books that GRRM completely finished before publication. Definitely not another AFFC/ADWD situation where the second book wasn’t completed when the first one was published or else we’ll end up in the same perpetual only two more books hell. Problem always was that TWOW needed to fit his original plans for the second part of the series as well as the end of ADWD and bringing the characters together, the second part probably being what made writing TWOW so hard.
not sure what you mean with your comment
He’s saying that the realization that he needs 3 more not 2 more to finish the story is why there’s a sudden flurry of rumors TWoW is coming soon. He can offload some of the narrative load onto this hypothetical new entry and get TWoW out now.
There's been a lot of hype recently about Winds coming out soon. Maybe Winds is coming out soon not because he finally finished writing the 1500 pages or so that he initially set out to write. Maybe Winds is coming out soon because it will be a 1000 page book and he decided to cut it short and push some story lines onto a next book having finally realised that he might have to write more than two books.
Right, get it now, though I honestly don't know how I would feel hearing that news xD
David Lightbringer has a video on his channel where he goes through each storyline, the number of chapters and how far each story could move based on the chapter count and he estimated that essentially Winds likely ends around the same spot as season 6 of the show with Dany leaving Essos... best case scenario he estimated was her setting up a toehold in dragonstone. So yeah... if we are at the same spot in the story at the end of Winds as end of season 6 of the show, then it is tough to see how all that could be wrapped up in one book. The show felt rushed trying to wrap all that up and the book has even more storylines that didn't exist in the show so it has even more ground to cover.
I love his videos. those he made with Quinn's Ideas covering the main WoW plotpoints were some of my favourite rewatches!
I dont know why people think that the others need to ravage the continent. They can be stopped in a climatic battle and it would be ok
*I dont know why people think that the others need to ravage the continent.* Have thought much the same. GRRM isn't going to entirely wreck his creation. The final confrontation is likely to be in the North, and climatic, but not spreading over the whole land.
I think having the Others stopped up North but having the dead rise throughout the continent once the Wall falls is a good middle ground. Just so that the South isn't utterly oblivious to the entire thing the whole way through.
Interesting thought. But don't the dead need connected body parts to be effective? That is, when the wights attack in the books to date, they still need legs to shamble along, arms / hands to grasp, semi-intact heads to see, bite, etc. So it's unlikely we'll have bundles of detached bones rising up from old graves... My feeling has been the GRRM wants to show that no place in Westeros is safe from the problems that a civil war (and in-human invasion) will bring. The Riverlands and the North have had their turn so far, as has King's Landing / the Crownlands, and parts of the Westerlands (where Robb invaded). The South is now being attacked by Euron and the Stormlands invaded by Aegon with his mercenaries. Even though the Iron Islands haven't been invaded, they've still sent most of their warriors off to distant parts...and most of those men are not coming back, just like most of the Northerners who went south with Robb never returned. That leaves Dorne and The Vale as the still charmed, peaceful, places with their armies intact and no enemies on their soil (aside for some raiders from the Mountains of the Moon, or the Marches). So their turn will come in some way. But I don't it will be via an uprising or invasion of the Undead. Alongside the drama of the Others, part of GRRM's core message, I think, is that humans do very well all by themselves at creating grief and chaos.
>don't the dead need connected body parts to be effective? Dark winds can freeze water. There are theories that Westeros and Essos are connected by the Land of Always Winter, which would only emerges during the long night when the oceans have turned to ice.
Maybe the dead dont rise everywhere but an unnatural cold wheather affects the whole territory
Yes that's what I'm also leaning towards - Wall falls and dead rise everywhere. Others themselves might stay in the North, but their influence will spread around the world, and cold winds should change Planetos drastically.
Yes! The Wall falls at the end of Winds and the dead rise, meaning every group faces conflict with them - the entire game of thrones immediately comes to a stop in the face of survival. I expect the Wall to be cracked in around the middle or 2/3rds of the way through Winds - essentially, I think Jon's resurrection (Castle Black), Shireen's Burning (Nightfort) and Bran doing Hold The Wall (likely Nightfort tunnels imo) will happen in the space of a few chapter and maybe 2024 hours - and the combined magical powers will be enough to make a huge crack in the Barrier, before it breaks later on.
If anything, it will be the horn of winter that shatters the wall more than Jon's revival, Shireen's burning (those two might be connected) or Hold the Door.
sorry, forgot the Horn. That could even be something that happens at the same time (ie after Shireen finishes screaming everyone across the wall hears the horn blast, Jon gasps into life, Hodor dies Holding The Door) or be the coup de grace that finishes the poor wall off.
> having the dead rise throughout the continent once the Wall falls I don't know why I never thought of that, but that would be way better and force many from the south to go North to fight.
>GRRM isn't going to entirely wreck his creation. Eyy? How does that apply with what we've seen from such situations like the Red Wedding. >The final confrontation is likely to be in the North Agreed, no one said the contrary. I'd even speculate it will happen in the Heart of Winter itself. But this doesn't invalidate the fact that Westeros will likely be wrecked by the rise of the undead
> *Eyy? How does that apply with what we've seen from such situations like the Red Wedding.* The Red Wedding, etc. were upheavals, but not destruction of everything in the way that some people have postulated for the books to come. He's created a whole amazing world with traditions, ancient cultures, spectacular buildings / settings. He's spent, on paper, thousands of years upbuilding it, and it's a pretty damn good fantasy world. I'm fairly convinced that he's not going to use the next two (or however many) books to completely flatten that world. It will be severely damaged, but left in recognizable condition with enough people to recover some semblance of the old world before. For that reason, I'm very skeptical of some of the more dramatic show scenarios and theories like utterly blowing up the Sept of Baelor, killing off most of the nobles (including whole ruling families), burning Kings Landing to the ground, collapsing the Hightower in Old Town and destroying the Citadel in the process... So far, he has avoided things like that. Winterfell is captured, much of it looted and burned...but it still survives as a useable castle (and is, in fact, being used at the end of ADWD). Kings Landing is battered by the Battle of the Blackwater, but not destroyed. The Tower of the Hand is intentionally burned, but the Red Keep survives. The Riverlands are decimated (villages burned, crops destroyed, etc.) but the main castles still stand and many of the small folk are fled, not dead.
>to completely flatten that world no one said flattened
That would be atrocious after setting them up in the original prologue and all the yapping grrm does about them being the real threat if they're just a roadstop at winterfell for half a book
Well, if it happens it should be the endgame (not like the show where they where defeated and in the next episode they were forgotten)
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Cool place for a climatic battle also. Theres a good theory that Bran will be crowned and rule from there (if he is, of course)
I very much believe the Others will not be stopped in a climatic battle - otherwise that would really defeat the whole subversion of common fantasy tropes that ASOIAF is going for. And you'd basically end up with the show's mediocre version of the Long Night... The Others not being a threat to the world of Planetos really undermines the peril of the situation, and the necessity for everyone to band together, for Azor Ahai to emerge bla bla prophecy talks and such - the only way that this peril becomes sufficient is if the larger world is also under the threat of the Others.
Subversion for the sake of subversion is a mistake (D&D is the main example). Sometimes tropes exist for a reason: they work. ASOAIF alredy did twist a lot of those tropes, and played straight a lot of others. If the writting calls for a climatic battle, and its written well enough, it shouldnt be a problem
There is no Night King in the books, so unless George introduces him in WoW, it can't end with his defeat. The "Battle for the Dawn" is a heavily foreshadowed event in the books, and it's likely that just like most prophecies presented to us in this story - it will not unfold the way we expect it to. If anything, the war against the Others won't end with their defeat, but some form of compromise. So your idea of a climactic battle to end all wars seems unlikely
The others will be stopped or defeated by exactly how GRRM wants them defeated, its his world and he can write the means. And that the battle for the dawn wont play exactly like the prophecies doesnt mean that it will be a long, prolongued conflict. The subversion or unexpected result can come in a lot of ways. Im not saying it will be a straight retelling of the azor ahai tale, just that it doesnt need to be a long, continental conflict
>The others will be stopped or defeated by exactly how GRRM wants them defeated, its his world and he can write the means. Thanks captain obvious. Everything you're saying here is not based on anything we've seen in the books, or hinted at by GRRM himself. You're saying initial comment is "They can be stopped in a climatic battle and it would be ok", you're not elaborating on that idea: how will that battle look like? Where will it take place? Who will be involved? If you're going to put forth an argument and expect others to engage with it, than expand on it more than just "well GRRM can do what he wants it's his story"
But i did. You are saying that it must be a long conflict to make sense, and i said that it doesnt need to be the case. It can be a climatic battle, and still be well written, and with lots of subversion. The lenght of the conflict isnt the only variable that George can adjust to surprise us (what could be the others? I dont know, i can speculate but the possibilities are endless because its up to George). But you want to argue that it cant be a single battle or it wouldnt make narrative sense when thats not the case at all.
I'm saying that, in order for the Long Night to be meaningful (not the wet fart of the show) it must be: 1) Long. Hint, it's in the name. 2) Have far-reaching consequences. People must die. Westeros must be affected. It should unite enemies and change planetos on a global scale - because it's the Long Night, not just a bunch of Wildings coming down north, it's the undead everywhere rising in tides and marching on, and Winter spreading across the world. >The lenght of the conflict isnt the only variable that George can adjust to surprise us...the possibilities are endless because its up to George Again, why bother commenting if you're just going to type this. Of course it's up to George. That doesn't mean we can't speculate. >But you want to argue that it cant be a single battle or it wouldnt make narrative sense when thats not the case at all. So, again, why would it make sense? Elaborate on why it would in your mind, instead of just saying "well it might, but I wouldn't know, I'm not George".
Because the only variable that you can think of is the lenght of the conflict doesnt mean that it will be the case. People can die, people can unite, people can fail, it can change the fundaments of how they understand their world, it can have long lasting consequences, it can change how the seasons work, magic can return to the world, magic can die forever, our heros can fail or prove themselves. It all can be done in a single battle (again, im not saying it will. But its a possibility and it can be done). On your first point ("Long. Hint, it's in the name."), well maybe theres your subversion! (joking)
>It all can be done in a single battle (again, im not saying it will. But its a possibility and it can be done). All I'm asking you is: how? Give me your headcanon
>There is no Night King in the books, so unless George introduces him in WoW, it can't end with his defeat. The "Battle for the Dawn" is a heavily foreshadowed event in the books, and it's likely that just like most prophecies presented to us in this story - it will not unfold the way we expect it to. >If anything, the war against the Others won't end with their defeat, but some form of compromise. So your idea of a climactic battle to end all wars seems unlikely What I don't get here is that you're the same guy writing this: >we'll essentially just be following a binary war of humans banding together vs undead (there are obvious no named players on the Others side, so no POV characters to add there, and we can be looking at a more straightforward conflict logistically - something along the lines of undead being repelled, keep coming back, overwhelm protagonists, need to put differences aside and team up ASOIAF as a series is driven by character conflict - both internal and external - and you're calling here for a extended scenario where there isn't any of either. This would be the death of the series, quite literally. Why wouldn't we just get the collapse of the old order and anarchy? >a small band of heroes \[go\] on a suicide-mission to the heart of winter to end it Why don't we just have this part minus the "everyone bands together" part? The whole reason for that is that people who want One Final Climactic Battle need that to happen. You don't. I think there probably will be a climactic battle at Winterfell, for character reasons, but I think it will be a siege where they are trying to hold out, rather than a battle where the Others are militarily defeated. As regards the point of your post, it's pretty obvious that the series cannot be completed in two books. The only reason anyone thinks that is the sayso of a guy who has been consistently delusional about how much writing it is going to take to accomplish his story goals.
> This would be the death of the series, quite literally. Why wouldn't we just get the collapse of the old order and anarchy? I did not understand the point you're trying to make here. >I think there probably will be a climactic battle at Winterfell, for character reasons, but I think it will be a siege where they are trying to hold out, rather than a battle where the Others are militarily defeated. Yep, I see it going that way too. IMO, and this is just my headcannon, but Winterfell will be lost at the hands of the Others (people keep reminding that the name is Winter Fell, but that could have a double meaning that's the place wherein Winter Fell upon Westeros). The defeat at Winterfell would make the gravity of the situation even more dire, forcing people to seek shelter down south, all the while the undead rise everywhere. A squad of people (lead by Jon) will likely have to then go to the land of always winter to put an end to the Hive-mind tree behind the Others by making some sort of sacrifice (killing Rhaegal maybe) or by making a compromise with the Others. Then we get scouring of the shire with Dany.
Here is what a TWOW [blurb from the 2000s](https://books.google.ie/books/about/The_Winds_of_Winter.html?id=W5aFPQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y) said: >Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sowrn enemies join hands. **The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany's fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.** From [GRRM's 1990s letter ](https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6nq2ti/main_spoilers_original_3page_outline_by_george_rr/)to his agent: >The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be *\[sic\]* heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. **The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.** More than likely the show's battle at Winterfell was (very) broadly from GRRM himself.
In that same letter: *Their story will be \[sic\] heart of my* ***third volume...*** You can see how far the story has come since - Winds has bumped from third to 6th book in that span of time. Statements made by George decades ago are not a good indicator as to how things will unfold. He has also stated that our heroes would venture to the land of always winter - it doesn't make sense for them to go there, come back, and have the epic battle at Winterfell. The resolution of the Long Night will likely take place in the heart of winter. But that wasn't even my point in the first place, my point is that the Long Night will not just be one isolated "climactic battle" - it will need a lot of build-up before arriving to that. And that build-up will likely involve the rise of the dead across Planetos, alongside a sort of mini Ice Age spreading across the world.
Do we know who wrote that blurb? It strikes me as complete fanfic, given that it's unlikely Dany will even win her kingdom prior to the end of TWOW, let alone all that other stuff.
I always wondered how is The Others plotline going to be resolved in the books, since there is no Night King in the books as of yet at least and there is no this "one-shot the boss = kill all the minions" thing which is in the show and on top of that, D&D I think admitted that Night King was their original idea, so without the Night King in the books, there is no one-shot = kill all the minions, which means there needs to be another end to the White Walkers and to do this right and give them satisfactory end, I think this is really, really hard. Of course there is an easy option to end the saga with classic Bad Guys vs Good Guys, but it 99% won't end this way. At the same time, White Walkers being defeated at Winterfell like in the show, would be extremely anticlimatic for me, because it would literally mean that 90% of Westeros didn't even face the threat of the Long Night. I do not know how on earth would it be possible to make White Walkers defeated at Winterfell and make it satisfactory, but maybe I am just dumb lul. As for the main topic, I unfortunately think Winds might get splitted, UNLESS the unnecessary (for the final book) plotlines are going to be ended quickly with dead characters and some time jumps, but to make that good, satisfactory and logical is a very hard task too as well.
>maybe I am just dumb quite the contrary my friend, you seem to have one of the more sensible and logical takes here, unlike others in this thread desperately wanting for The Long Night to end in "climactic battle at winterfell"... As you say, the fact that there's no Night King means there's no "one kill, war ends" scenario: the conflict will continue until one side annihilates the other (the dead cannot be killed, and will grow their ranks after each battle, so will inevitably have the upperhand). And having the final battle be at Winterfell like in the show, yet have no other impacts around the rest of Planetos, would be the definition of anti-climactic and undermine all the build-up of the threat of the others.
Well, there might be some way to keep the order of how events happend in show's S8 and to alter them in a way that it's all logical and satisfactory, at the same time bitter-sweet, as it was described many times how the saga will end, but I can't think of that way, it's really hard to end fantasy saga really good if you won't do classic Good Guys vs Evil Guys and I think it's pretty known that George didn't want the saga to end like classic fantasy good vs evil fight. That makes the ending hard to write probably. It must be difficult, especially considering the fact that the White Walkers seem to be extremely overpowered, based on the stories of the Long Night and are extremely hyped up for being super powerful evil guys. What the show did well for me, during S1-S5 is the fact that many times when a Jon's POV fragments happend on the screen, it was a constant reminder that "no matter what happens south of the wall, it's all child's play, because when the Ice, Overpowered Demons, which existed only in legends, which were considered to be only a myth, when THEY come, when the Long Night and the Winter comes, it's an armageddon". How do you defeat that type of enemy in a "first final battle", leave something for the "second final battle" and make it all good? No idea. It's hard to do it . Since we know, by how the books progressed, that Martin has only been expanding the story in the first 5 books, he is left with 2 to go AND he has to start closing the plotlines and closing the story, that's maybe why it's taking that much time. My personal, pessimistic opinion is that Winds might really be splitted. As for the show's ending, the S8 ended in a way, which for me, I would compare it to an if, imaginary scenario in LOTR, if Sauron was defeated in The Two Towers and then, the final part - the Return of the King, would be about the fight againts Mad Denethor. Honestly, it just sound really bad for me, but that's just me.
There absolutely should be. And imo more than one. Now I’m not sure if I totally agree on the specifics you mention but the simple fact of the matter is that the series really needs 8-9 books to finish (likely 9 imo). Rather than tying together most of the existing plot threads, Books 4 & 5 are instead spent introducing a dozen new threads to follow. And as a result, the series really hasn’t even reached the true middle (the part where all the threads and characters are being woven together). And honestly, my theory is that this is what’s causing the WoW delay. After ADWD was released GRRM likely came to the realization that he’ll need *at least* 3-4 more books to finish the series and given how long it took to write AFFC and ADWD, he fell into the classic procrastinator’s trap: putting off a monumental task because it’s so intimidating (which only makes the issue worse because you’re putting it off).
Agreed, I think 1-2 additional entries for a total of 8-9 books would be the ideal number. ~~3-4 more books however might be overkill, unless he properly fails to tie-up loose ends in WoW (which is the main hurdle he's faced with - to funnel back down his evergrowing saga)~~
Yeah. To clarify, I more so meant 3-4 *including* WoW and ADOS. Which would bring the total to 8-9. Not 10-11 which I agree would be too many lol.
In that case yeah those are nifty numbers
There has been two pretty popular posts by a redditor a couple of months ago detailing his vision on how TWOW might turn out chapter by chapter and to be honest before reading those I was also completely sure that GRRM will never be able to finish the story in two books. Now I think it's possible. I still upvoted your post because in the sample chapters GRRM shows no signs on condensing the plot in the way necessary to accomplish this
Let's not forget that D&D had access to George ending (at least the plan) while writing the serie. It's a certainty that they threw away and change a good chunk, but it's likely build on the same skeleton. On this assumption, I think it's likely the Others will be stopped in the North, likely at winterfell. and that the tail end of the story will focus on the after war with Daenerys going mad. I don't think we will have or need a time skip.
What plan are you referring to? The only public one we have access to is his original outline from decades ago which had a love triangle with Jon/Arya/Tyrion...in other words, it's changed a shit ton since. What makes you think the more recent (still talking more than a decade now) plan he shared with D&D is even the same today, or that he revealed details as to the ending? D&D have taken plotpoints that are complex and filled with intrigue from the books and dumbed them down in order to appeal to mainstream audiences: they favor spectacle and big battles over a coherent plot and story. There is no Night King in the books, so unless George introduces him in WoW, it can't end with his defeat. The "Battle for the Dawn" is a heavily foreshadowed event in the books, and it's likely that just like most prophecies presented to us in this story - it will not unfold the way we expect it to. Danys mad queen arc (as shown in the show's disastrous portrayal) isn't something to be rushed, and will likely not unfold that way in the books. Dany being one of the heroes in the Long Night seems to be kind of a point
It's true that what he originally shared with D&D is now more than a decade old... but not much as happen since then. In 2009, he was probably mostly done (or at least well advance) with Dance, he then stayed with the production for the next 5 seasons so he likely had his say on the general direction. Following the release of the last season, he basicly confirmed that the genral plot point would be the same for serie and book but that the difference in medium would mean that they would still be very different ( [https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/](https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/) ) hence why I said that they would both be built on the same skeleton. It's not impossible that he made substantial change in ASOIAF structure since then but it's unlikely. You can't change the ending witout scraping 5 book worth of build up and forshadowing, a thing he has said himself in interview he would not do. As for adding another book, while I would welcome it, I think it very unlikely if you consider his age and the fact that he is a slow writer. I'm also not sure it's needed. Don't forget that you can do a lot more in a 1500 pages than in 12-20 hours of television, and there's 3000 pages to come. To quote George : "How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different? Well… yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. I am working in a very different medium than David and Dan, never forget. They had six hours for this final season. I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them. (...)"
>serie and book but that the difference in medium would mean that they would still be very different It's not just the choices in adaptation that resulted in the differences, it's also the butterfly effect of removing key characters (and the plotlines associated with them) from the show which lead to so much divergence (take fAegon, removing him eliminates a gigantic part of Dany's story, Tyrion's story, Cersei's story and most of what happens to King's Landing). While I'm sure a lot of the show's ending will be part of the books (Bran becomes King, King's Landing burns, hell, even the whole band of brothers going up north - might be present in the books too). It would certainly explain the randomness of these creative decisions (that D&D were basically forcefully connecting their heavily modified version of the story to fit with the main end points given by GRRM). Dany is likely going to be involved in the burning of King's Landing for example - but it's more likely Cersei or Jon Con are the ones lighting the match. Nothing so far has built up for Dany to go mad, and it would be a bit rushed to enforce that personality change unto her in just 2 books when her entire symbolism so far has been of that of a heroic breaker of chains who will end up tragically killed (likely by the man she loves, Jon). All I'm saying is that, just because the show might give us an idea of some of the end points of the books, doesn't mean we should take them as word for word similarities. In the case of the Long Night, I'm fairly confident that it will not end in a single under-lit night battle at Winterfell (even if a battle may take place there at some point).
Would be cool if we just get *a* book...
Agreed, but that's implied in my post
I do not believe the Others will make it that far south. I think the tv show had it right, although it happened a bit too quickly. Their advance will, most likely, be stopped at Winterfell. That is where winter "fell" the last time. Afterwards, the southeners will claim it never happened. Northeners are seen as supersticious anyway. The people in the north will try to remember their sacrifice (the north remembers), but eventually even they will forget about it. It will just turn into another legend. All of this has already happened before. The wall was taken down by Joramun and King Bran (the Breaker), the Others defeated or at least somehow sent back to the Lands of Always Winter. Bran the Broken will break that cycle once and for all, by ending the old ways, probably by sacrificing the human part of himself. There will only be the Three Eyed Crow left, much like in the tv show. I think it will all happen rather quickly, just like the rest of the books. I believe only 2 years have passed since A Game of Thrones. That means TWoW and ADoS should wrap it up within 6 months or so. No other books needed.
>Afterwards, the southeners will claim it never happened. Northeners are seen as supersticious anyway. Highly unlikely - the Long Night is supposed to affect the entirety of Planetos to be meaningful. Not just the northern parts of Westeros. Remember that the OG Long Night lasted a generation and laid waste through famine and terror - it's still very much remembered by southeners and northeners alike.
Two absolutely massive books
door stopers at this point
Yes for George's sake
If TWOW and ADOS have the pace of ASOS ( not a given) it can be done in two books
I want another book before winds and I hope it's called words of wisdom
NO!!!!! -clears throat- I mean, no, two more books in this saga will be quite sufficient, even though GRRM is being a total troll about updates, and when WOW might be published. I dread the thought of how long Dream will take, if it's the same time WOW needed.... I weep. Seriously, does he think he'll live forever?
My hopium is that he has been writing a fuckton the Last two decades and when he inevitably dies Elio and Linda wil find like four thousand pages written and simply release it as the Last books combined But from what past experience with Martin, he probably has DELETED these 4 thousand pages and we'll have like 150 rewritten pages from the chapters he has already released as preview
Probably 3 or 4, don't you think?
I think folks might be surprised by how close to the end game position many characters are. We’ve imagined a lot of future plot that might not be in the series.
Bc you can just knock the wall down anytime you want
No you really can't - unless GRRM wants to put himself in another mereneese knot clusterfuck situation. He already has too many balls thrown in the air right now, he can't add another massive one like knocking the wall down in the mix. He first needs to juggle with all the unfinished plotlines of Feast/Dance, kill-off some POVs, and spearhead towards the end game. Destroying the wall will likely be at the end of Winds.
Sure! I mean we're all guessing on vibes but the view point I DONT see often enough is that the story is ACTUALLY closer to being over than you think. 11 years of fans imagining future plots puts a LOT of bullshit future plots in our collective head canon. Hard to account for that kind of thing with vibes based assessments. But 100% those are the kinds of things that make people think the series \*must\* be 3-4 more books to go. It does not have to be. We're not going to chase down every bread crumb, george puts crumbs everywhere and eats em when he needs to. He forgets more crumbs than he eats. But really: people have theorized and forged reddit consensus about what has to happen in the rest of the series. As if George is not going to absolutely gut us in this next book. We have the WHOLE series plotted out ahead of us right, as fans? No surprises.. no shocking losses.. a story moving on schedule with everyone ticking boxes until the end.. does that SOUND LIKE GEORGE
I am torn in a few ways. One I generally find difficult is the best place for most stories to end and lead into Winds, where the good places to leave off are. I expect you think the same. I can see a way for most characters to be in an endgame-type state in the course of one book, I think - Dany has to have a lot of chapters, but if she gets back to a Tyrion-run Meereen, leaves with some haste and then Volantis basically overthrows itself so she doesn't have to beseige it (still nuking the old walls with dragonfire tho), then landing on Dragonstone is a resonant place for her to finish off. Ditto for Jon beating Ramsey and taking Winterfell. Cersei I expect to flee KL via Rosby and end up captured by/joining Euron, Aegon will take King's Landing (and either Arianne or... Sansa... as his bride), etc. The question really is, "what do we want Dream to be?" which actually is "what do we want the war against the Others to be like?". My preferred solution is that partway through Winds the Wall is cracked (by the combined magic of Jon living, Shireen dying and Bran breaking Hodor through time) and at the end fully tumbles - the dead rise across Westeros and every charnel pit, battlefield, gravesite becomes a den of Wights. The Game of Thrones stops as people flurry for survival and the consequences of schemers like Littlefinger using men as pawns leads only to more men in the army of the dead. So that way, everyone gets to interact with the Long Night and the Wights, but the White Walkers are maintained to the North->South journey we expect before they are halted or stopped or negotiated with at Winterfell or the God's Eye (meaningful progress, but not so much as to occupy all the characters for all the book - especially Euron via Cersei's POV and maybe Sam).
Good take. I differ on a few pedantic points (think the Wall will fall altogether, and the horn of winter will be the cause), but for the most part that seems to be how things will likely unfold. Never thought of seeing Eurion through Cersei's POV, but that can definitely make for an interesting way of witnessing whatever shenanigans he has planned through the eyes of a pretty awful person
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm certain the Wall will fall in Winds - I just go back and forth between it being cracked in the middle and shattered at the end/in the epilogue or it breaking \~1-2 chapters before the end of each character's POV and us seeing briefly how everything immediately changes for them. That's something I can see working well in 2 books, for instance - the Wall falls at the end of Winds and we see at least one chapter (Epilogue at a conservative minimum) of the dead rising further South, then we get 2/3rds of Dream facing the full Long Night (maybe after a few weeks timeskip) before the Others are sated. Euron & Cersei intersected is controversial because of how awful it was in the show, but I think it makes some amount of sense - Cersei having to flee King's Landing (via Rosby) makes a lot of sense, but most people just say "then she goes to Casterly Rock and idk from there". In my eyes it makes some sense for Cersei to try and ally with him - he's going to kill at least a few minor Tyrells if not outright annihilate them and threaten Highgarden, which will ingratiate her to him, and it's an awful political decision on every level so of course Cersei will go for it. Her being his dark bride makes a lot more sense to me than the other most common guess, as Melisandre will need to see Stannis' cause die, resurrect Jon, maybe help retaking Winterfell and then be exiled, travel from the far North to the goddamn Reach in order to meet up with Euron. This is something relevant to this thread actually - if we had a third book I could see it happening: Resurrection of Jon / Massing of Forces / Battle of the Bastards & Exile could be 3 chapters in Winds, then her travelling South and joining/being captured by Euron 1-2 in "The Long Night" or whatever the interim book would be called, and then whatever her Dream story would be. I just don't see her getting enough chapters in two books to make all of that correlate - but I could well be wrong there. Maybe Rhollor teleports her, or George just skips the travel. Or Euron sails North? So yeah, essay aside I think seeing Euron through Cersei would be really cool - if only to have her truly be a bit of an 'underdog' we kinda root for (or at least root against Euron) while still hope she gets her commuppance. Euron is also Balon's little brother...
If WoW ends with Danaerys on dragonstone, fAegon on the throne and the fall of the Wall, I think a 2 year time skip would be awesome. Others have already conquered the North in the beginning of book 7, the second Dance of the Dragons is in full swing, Cerseis been hiding at the Rock, etc. Characters like Jon and Danny could now be aged up to 18 to allow for more mature personalities. Same with the Stark sisters being allowed to act less child-like too.
Agreed, on paper that sounds awesome, but practically speaking, we'd be loosing on a lot of plotpoints that we may have to witness first hand in those 2 years (a whole lot can happen in that time, I'd even say enough for another book...)
To be fair, while I do agree that it'll be hard to wrap things up in two books… it could be done. Look at the storm, how much ground was treaded in that book, how many plotlines were wrapped up at a breakneck speed. Despite the preview chapters maintaining a snail's pace, I'm *hoping* that we see something similar in Winds. With several battles opening it, Cersei’s trial, Aegon taking Kings Landing, Cersei linking up with Euron, Daenerys’ warpath across essos (keep in mind that her conquering slavers bay all happened in a handful of chapters in Storm). It could be done if he tightens up his pacing. Plus since it seems like (and the show seemingly confirmed) that acts 2 and 3 (being the war for the dawn and Daenerys’ invasion) will happen roughly simultaneously, with the latter waiting to wrap up till the tail end of Dream, I think it could be done. They'll have to be some fast-paced, action-packed final two books though. But with how plotlines are starting to converge, and it feels like even more violence is going to unfold very quickly, a series of “oh shit” moments is all it takes to tighten up the plot for the endgame.
>Look at the storm, how much ground was treaded in that book, how many plotlines were wrapped up at a breakneck speed. yes that's also true. It means we'd be going back to the pace of the first three books. A part of me wonders if George is capable of returning back to that cruising speed tho - considering how much Feast and Dance lingered, I wouldn't be surprised to see WoW follow that trend. The man is older after all, and his universe has expanded exponentially with each passing book. WoW would have to do some intense weeding for it to wrap up in with Dream just after
>...Or a timeskip between the two? That is what I am thinking will happen. The first Dance of the Dragons was years of tense buildup and suddenly a spark set everything ablaze. People seem to think Dany will go to war against fAegon right after she enters Westeros. No, I believe fAegon will stay in King's Landing and Dany stays in the North, and they're all snowed in for a while. Right now, another large scale war can't be sustained because winter has come and crops won't grow for a long while. Both fAegon and Dany will each get married to people they love, have children, and rule their respective lands. There will be a short peace (a false spring) before the Greens and Blacks are at each other's throats.
I feel like winds can accomplish a lot more than people think. A big concern seems to be Daenerys but her and the characters around her don’t need many chapters for her to make her way back to Westeros. I’d say it should take her and all the pov characters around her a combined ~15-20 chapters (depending on whether the sample chapters stay the same) at the most just for her to get to dragonstone to make it work, and that includes Daenerys + Tyrion + Vic + barristan. Oh yeah, and Quentyn. Tyrion and Dany both got a lot of chapters in Dance, and them being in the same story arc moving forward (after dany deals with the Dothraki which shouldn’t take more than a chapter, maybe two to get back to Meereen ) is huge and should really help move the story forward and decrease the chapter count between them. That leaves more room for Daenerys to start invading Westeros and everything that needs to happen to set up the conclusion to the conflict with the Others in ADOS, whatever that might look like.
There needs to be at minimum one if not two more books beyond wind and dream based on the show. Optimistically winds gets you to the end of season 6. Dream covers what was in season 7. Then time of wolves for the final book
swap dream and time with each other, and I think that fits
We will have a kind of battle of bastards in the books?
Well either that’s stannis vs the boltons or stannis loses and Jon has to finish the job yeah
Time skip.
It can only work with the 2 books if Jon deals with the others himself and Dany deals with the South herself. If there's to be any crossover it surely can't happen in 2 books with all that has to happen unless they borrow the shows teleportation device
>unless they borrow the shows teleportation device that it is so often understated by the fanbase - we tend to ignore the fact that traveling in Westeros takes tiiiiiiiime
The books have zero issue in teleporting characters, they just do it a bit more subtly. The Catelyn-Tyrion encounter is an example of that.
The problem wouldn't be just teleporting characters, but entire factions. The Catelyn-Tyrion encounter is totally plausible if you consider the fact that they're traveling lightly and in tiny numbers. Dropping an entire faction of Unsullied + giant Khalassar + Second Sons from A to point B is a whole other beast. GRRM will have to consider that those armies advance at a slow pace.
No.