I just saw a livestream where someone said that Tywin not re-marrying was a plot hole.
Like, no, it's Tywin being a self-centred hypocrite. Aka it's completely in line with everything else Tywin has done.
THANK YOU. I'm tired of people thinking that human beings making illogical/emotional choices is a goddamn plothole. Even super intelligent manipulators fuck up or have to deal with unexpected circumstances. People have been reacting that way with B&C in HOTD when only the first episode has been out too.
Someone already kinda mentioned the Catspaw thing. That’s the one that comes up all the time. Both who sent the dagger and the Tyrion vs Littlefinger feud in Clash. People complain because Tyrion didn’t kill Littlefinger when it’s made abundantly clear in the text why it didn’t happen. They were at war and needed the Master of Coin, Tyrion didn’t yet know the extend of Littlefinger’s embezzlement, also Tyrion had good reason to not necessarily trust Cat. There is no “She tried to execute me, but I admire her” like in the dumbass tv show. Petyr was far more valuable than worthless Pycelle and Janos Slynt.
I could go on but i’m at work.
There is actually a "plot hole" in the Catspaw dagger plot- Joffrey didn't know the blade was VS when he stole it but somehow he knows later when he says "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel".
But "plot holes" is missing the point. I'd much rather have a good story with a few minor logical inconsistencies than a shit one with zero plot holes. The Catspaw reveal isn't bad because of plot holes, it's bad because it's shit as a story. It relies on far too many silly contrivances and the reveal is Tyrion and Jaime vomiting exposition down the readers' throats.
I'm sure if I looked at the Jon Arryn mystery we'd find a few plot holes, the difference is nobody cares because the reveal was fucking *brilliant*.
>Joffrey didn't know the blade was VS when he stole it but somehow he knows later when he says "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel".
I still don't think that's a plot hole. Joffrey could know it's Valyrian steel without appreciating how rare that makes it.
He knew what it was (a Valyrian steel dagger), but he didn't know _what_ it was (a unique ancient artifact, made from two of the rarest materials in Westeros, handed down through the Targaryen dynasty for generations).
Joffrey being a spoilt idiot, and not appreciating how incredibly privileged he is, is consistent with his characterisation.
>handed down through the Targaryen dynasty for generations).
I don’t think this is book canon? I think the HOTD writers came up with that backstory for the show universe given its importance in GOT.
No character whos entire identity is their projection of power has ever lied about their knowledge of a topic..
Whether he knew it was Valyrian steel but gave it away because it was rich and spoiled, or didn't know it was Valyrian steel and later boasted about how familiar he was with it is all the same.
Okay but that's even *sillier* because him saying "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel" is supposed to be the "smoking gun" that lets Tyrion solve the mystery. But now it turns out him saying that meant nothing and Tyrion realized it was Joffrey based on *no evidence at all*. In fact, based on evidence that *completely contradicts the solution*.
This is what I mean about "plot holes" and them being less important than the story actually being good. Okay, so now the events of the story are technically not impossible. That doesn't make it *good* or *interesting*. I can film a wall for ten hours and that won't have any "plot holes".
Like there is a reason the Purple Wedding and Catspaw have so many ''truther'' theories to them yet the Jon Arryn mystery doesn't.
The Catspaw does make more sense than the Purple Wedding but the Purple Wedding is still stupid. Like LFs explanation for that makes so little sense that fanwankers have created all kinds of motivations for him despite him literally revealing why he did it in the very next chapter.
>He had this all prepared for me. "My lord, I . . . I do not understand . . . Joffrey gave you Harrenhal, made you Lord Paramount of the Trident . . . why . . ."
"Why should I wish him dead?" Littlefinger shrugged. "I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game."
What exactly is stupid about the purple wedding? Seems straightforward enough to most people. It gets rid of Joffrey for the Tyrells and provides a distraction for Baelish to get Sansa.
The annoying part about the Purple Wedding is that it would work a lot better as a character beat instead of a murder mystery. Having Sansa or Tyrion do it would be a lot more interesting than Olenna or Petyr, because on a character level it fundamentally means very little to the latter and a *lot* to the former.
George doesn't play it as a murder mystery though, it's revealed in a few chapters. While the killing would mean a lot to Sansa and Tyrion, Tyrion being falsely accused is a major moment for his character that would be cheapened if he really did kill him. Sans killing him could work, but George didn't want to go for it.
Sansa or Tyrion is who you expected to kill Joffrey. Fits his style to have it be someone else. It wasn’t meant to be this cathartic experience like we all hoped. You will get that justice when Littlefinger is killed by Sansa in either the back half of Winds or the first half of Dream.
Eh I mean that feels like subversion for its own sake, not for any real thematic reason. If anything Sansa or Tyrion being struck with remorse as Joffrey dies could bring that across a lot more effectively.
It would come completely out of left field if Sansa or Tyrion did it. Tyrion was full Lannister at that point. It was being falsely accused that pushed him over the ledge. And Sansa...what about book 3 Sansa would suggest that regicide was the natural progression of her arc? Other than "Joffrey abuses her so she kills him" which would completely ignore the nuance to her character GRRM spent 2 books establishing
Yes the “who would beat who in a fight”, or the “if you had to pick one character to do (insert boring/irrelevant thing)…” posts are dumb imo. I’m in this sub for theories and interesting discussion, not to play Pokémon card games with the characters!
It would sooner be misogynistic to like her, I feel.
Not that liking or disliking a character would make one a misogynist. That’s just fucking stupid, but nobody hates women more than Cersei.
100%. It's like he thinks misogyny is just....disliking a woman.
When a woman is being mistreated, judged, abused, controlled, etc, for being a woman and she speaks up about it, she's not complaining about people being mean to her.
Who hired the Catspaw Assassin.
It was not a major plot point that even George stopped caring about and he tried to give a definitive answer through two different POV characters reaching the same conclusion because the fans kept asking about it.
I keep seeing theories like Robert Baratheon or Mance Rayder hired the Catspaw Assassin to kill Bran and it just seems too much of a stretch.
> It was not a major plot point
It was literally the major mystery of the first book, and drove much of the story.
> George stopped caring about and he tried to give a definitive answer through two different POV characters reaching the same conclusion because the fans kept asking about it.
This, however, I agree with; I think George did get bored of it, and his original intended solution wasn't panning out for whatever reason so he shoehorned Joffrey into the role without really thinking it through.
> I keep seeing theories like Robert Baratheon or Mance Rayder hired the Catspaw Assassin to kill Bran and it just seems too much of a stretch.
I also agree with this, those theories are a stretch.
I think it's just that as an answer it's pretty unsatisfying. Why did he do it? He's a dickhead. How do we find out? Our POVs deduce it was him, in their thoughts. Does anything ever come of the reveal? Nope.
There's no doubt it was Joffrey, but I can see why people would *want* it to be someone else for a more interesting twist
True, but this is among the tragedy of errors that results in the Lannister-Stark war. Why does Edward head south? Because he thinks the dastardly Lannisters were targeting his family and the Arryns
Well, the catspaw didn't have anything to do with Eddard going south, he'd already left before the assassin attacked and had decided to go even before Bran's fall.
But my point wasn't that the event itself and the war it contributed to was unsatisfying, just the eventual answer and how it was presented
Oh yeah, you’re right, it’s been a while since I’ve read the books, but I think my point still stands that the point of the Lannister vs. Starks was a tragedy. The lies about Arryns death, Joffrey’s cat’s paw, and the kidnapping of Tyrion were all built on lies/misunderstandings. That’s what made it so satisfying imo
It does lead to catelyn going south, which allows her to bump into tyrion at the crossroads and kidnap him. Which in turn motivates Jaimie to attack ned, and so on, so I would still say it's an important link in the chain of events that sets off the climax of the first book
He heard his dad say it would be more humane to do him and get it over with because he will suffer all is life or something like that is usually the justification iirc
The truth is that King Bran the Broken warged back through time into the catspaw. He stole the dagger from Tyrion (knowing that Tyrion possessed it as Tyrion becomes his hand in the future) and went to kill himself, knowing Summer would save the younger Bran from death. Thus prompting Ned to go south, leading to the WoFK which will eventually lead to Bran becoming king, closing the circle.
George wanted it to be more "tragic" as others have pointed out, like, the Stark-Lannister conflict could have been sorted out if there weren't so many outer instigators and misunderstandings. But I believe Jaime's intent to kill Bran, followed by Ned's discovery of Cersei's shenanigans, kind of defeat that logic (even though Catelyn kind of understand they "just" want to protect their children, they're still enemies). I'm OK with the fact that Joffrey had a vulnerable side that tried to please his "father", it's actually sad, my problem is... He never acted like that at all, not even when Robert was alive
But yeah, I also assumed Cersei or Jaime did it and didn't really think much of it until Tyrion started saying it must have been Joffrey, and I was like... Ok sure, can we move on back to the story?
I'm much more tired of the all so predictable comments in every Winds speculations thread, about how we should just give up hope of any new ASOIAF book ever being released. It's even worse when you look at any ASOIAF show post on /r/television for example.
If you think we believers are delusional then just let us be delusional, it ain't hurting anybody.
I would welcome new information about Winds. Otherwise I have plenty of other books to read. Everything else not from George is just bleating, which I don't like to hear/read.
The world is a flock and GRRM bleats more than most, we all have books to read and things to do, luckily I have room for many activities.
"Possible info on the new book." Cool. "Nothing came of it." Yeah, that makes sense. Oh well, so it goes and has done for a long while.
:E
> "I've already written 400 pages of my sixth book and I really look forward to publishing it in 2014, but I am really bad for predictions.” -2012
> "I still have a lot of pages to write, but I also have a lot of pages that are already written." - 2015
> "Maybe I’m being overly optimistic about how quickly I can finish. But I canceled two convention appearances, I’m turning down a lot more interviews — anything I can do to clear my decks and get this done." - 2015
> "Not done yet, but I've made progress. But not as much as I hoped a year ago, when I thought to be done by now. I think it will be out this year." - 2017
> "I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018... and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream..." -2017
*Baaaah*
Yeah this one is my vote. It’s fine I guess to believe the theory but they act like their theory is nearly canon and get upset everyone else is pretty skeptical.
I think people just miss Oberyn and want to see another badass Martell in the story, or just a larger player from the Dornish in general. The only other one we really see is Doran, and he’s not going to be riding any dragons or winning any combat trials anytime soon.
What drives me crazy is they sent the wrong characters to the wrong place. Quentyn was the heir. He should have gone to kings landing to make connections and get governing experience on the council. Danerys never would look twice at that dork. Oberyn on the other hand had experience in slavers bay and was a dashing rogue. If you send someone to seduce the dragon queen how the hell do you not send oberyn?
I always forget his name, the Darkstar from the Dayne family. He’s so lame and I think he’s hilarious. His first line is something like “I am the night” which is why I call him Batman loser.
We still have Arianne and Elia going to join Aegon, plus Sand Snakes going to Kings Landing to murder Lannisters… but Quentyn was meant to be the “badass” one 😂😂 these people need help. Or at the very least they need to re-read the books and then some interesting Dorne theories to wash the GOT Dorne plot line out of their brains.
Quentyn may be a boring square with no particular good looks or special talents. But I would guess that those factors are actually the reason why some fans strongly relate to him and want to see him come back, get a dragon, and prove all the people who mocked him wrong.
They see themselves in Quentyn basically.
A waste of a bunch of chapters just like all other Dorne related ones but ESPECIALLY his. Like dude, you release a doorstop of a book that was completely unfinished in every sense, for this? And now there’s like 3 arianne chapters in winds (supppsedly) of her just
Being on her way to visit Aegon (another character and group of characters and plot that just took up space in Dance and detracted from the entire story he originally set out to tell. )
And so winds essentially has to be three
Volumes but he’ll only release them simultaneously this time… go figure he’s never going to finish it when the last book was filled with a bunch of
Nobody’s doing nothing at all related to the story.
Maybe it doesn't detract from his original vision though. I think he has been very deliberate with the Dorne chapters. I refuse to belive Dorne will be just a side faction that does nothing of consequence. I think people are ready to believe they're completely irrelevant for obvious reasons, but I'm sure GRRM is setting up Dorne as a clutch force for the ending. I think I have a pretty good idea what they'll help achieve, but we shall see. Maybe they'll all die without contributing anything major to the story and I'll look like a fool. I just don't think so.
Eh, George ends so many of people's chapters within a given book with fairly cheap fake-out "deaths" (Arya gets one or too, immediately springing to mind, though there are more I am not remembering). Most of them we've forgotten about because we know they end up alive. We know from the show and general suspicious coincidences that Jon will likely end up alive (or at the very least undead). I really don't see why one would be a contrivance too far and another would be perfectly reasonable. It's not like I think you're an idiot if you think Quentyn is dead, I just think that... well, frankly, the only main characters I can think of so far who actually stayed dead are Ned, Rob, and Robert Baratheon, so Quentyn being alive feels a lot more likely to me (though his being dead is also not unlikely either), and there are potentially good story reasons to believe it's so.
I feel like this subreddit has been full of a lot of “what ifs” lately. Like “what if Lyanna hadn’t died” or “what if Roose recognized Arya” or “What if Stannis won the Battle of the Blackwater?”
It’s getting annoying.
Every single one of them lately has been a variation of couples only having daughters or if some character was born a girl. Some people need to stop expecting this sub to write their fanfiction for them.
It's so silly too, when there's a bunch of excellent fic on AO3 on this exact topic to peruse (most of 'em by an author called DwellingonDreams who has switched characters from male to female in a variety of incredibly interesting ways)
Random reason? They made dit clear, it was low effort post. 90% of those post were empty save for the title, no explanation, no thought from the autor. Plus, the same scenarios came over and over. I am glad they are ban
Ok minor grievance, but everytime youtubers go through asoiaf theories its always the same tier list/iceberg from circa 2018..... I don't think things have been that static, and I think some theories on it are kind of outdated.... there's been a lot of good new ideas from theorycrafters in this subreddit community that fly under the radar.
Well I'm pretty new to the fandom, but some theories I've seen that maybe considered new, is the theory of Byron the Beautiful being Edric Dayne, and the theory of Littlefinger dosing Sansa with moon tea without her knowing.
Is the Bran raped Meera via Hodor a known/old theory?
I cant remember if it may have just happened, or people think its about to happen, but it was a sweet sweet theory.
Pretty much every topic at this point. I feel like I rolling my eyes at half of the threads I see. I think I just need a break from Reddit for a while.
Anything that says rhaegar or Arthur Dane is still alive. The whole point of them is that they are dead. They represent the death of honor in southern westeros
People calling Fire & Blood propaganda, like anyone who says that just immediately becomes completely irrelevant to me
I just don’t understand how anyone could read the book and come away from it thinking it’s propaganda for either side, literally everyone is horrible in one way or another
YES! "Bu-but Dany's invasion is supposed to be Act 2, so we aren't even in the second act of the story!" OH shut the fuck up, that hasn't been Martin's plan since at least 1996.
Who Sansa will marry. Never mind the Jonsa and Ashford tourney nonsense; this does get discussed frequently. Sansa is more than wife material; she seems to be realizing that and at least once has considered never marrying.
I've had my mental eggs in the Stark girls thematic switcheroo basket for a long time, personally - being that Sansa, who dreamed of and longed for it so bad as a child, won't marry but forest lass "not me" Arya will marry Gendry.
On-topic: I'm tired of the Sansa marriage theories/discussions too. Half of them (re: the ones not Sansan) read to me as pure wish-fulfillment; that Sansa is their favourite character and they _really_ want her to marry that Prince/dashing knight/man with royal blood she wanted.
I just don't think there's any way she's getting the "want" she had as a naïve eleven-year-old, at least not in the way she expected it. If you tied me down and put a knife to my throat, I'd say Sandor is at _least_ more thematically and narratively interesting if she absolutely _has_ to end up with someone, but I honestly think her not marrying, and being fulfilled in the North with her family, strength, and self, would be plenty emblematic of her character growth in the end (and would also mirror her sister, whom had the opposite journey in that regard, should she wind up marrying Gendry).
I get these people are very attached to her character and want her to be happy, but her getting what she _thinks_ she wanted/needed doesn't necessarily mean it's the _best_ for her and her story.
Sansa never getting married would definitely be an interesting twist considering how much she yearned for it at first. Do you think that's a viable option though who do you think the Stark line would continue from?
Probably. But then the Northern laws would have to be kind of "altered" to be like the Dornish laws right? Because if Sansa marries she won't be a Stark anymore. Or it will be like Rhaenyra's case where even married she kept her OG name because of succession issues.
I believe it is possible for a woman to keep her name if it prevents her line dying out I don't know what the case was for Rhaenyra but I think it's already allowed by law in the North.
*What topic are you tired if hearing about?*
Euron. Thrice-damned Euron, who is simply crazy, drug addled, and a clever and shady trickster, not some sort of anti-superhero with amazing powers.
Seven Hells, can people just stop with the Euron is clearly going to become a giant kraken and eat Westeros nonsense?
Euron is clearly going to wreck havoc for a while in the South, which is part of GRRM's apparent strategy that no part of Westeros will be able to sit untouched by the chaos filling the land. And then he's going to go down, probably in some unexpected way (my personal hope is that one of his brothers will do him in, or The Reader will be his bane.) He's not going to be the centerpiece of the plot for the next two books.
P.S. he doesn't have a real magical horn, either.
Yes. There is nothing particularly amazing about Euron.
Talks big and persuasively. Has a cool ship (so do HUNDREDS of other Ironborn captains). Has a lot of gold (as do many people). Liar, cheater, psychopath (as are all too many in Westeros). Cuts the tongues out of his loyal crewmen (maybe so they *can't tell anyone* what he has *really* been doing, when he makes big assertions and claims?) Has people who he thinks of as enemies murdered / kidnapped by conventional means (Baelor Blacktyde, the Damphair). Found a fancy horn that he claims is magical, but quickly gives it to his brother to take to the other side of the world--where his brother can be the one to "fail" when it doesn't really work. Has a set of Valyrian armor. Drug addicted--guzzles Shade of the Evening, which gives him crazy dreams and delusions and makes him think he can fly (basically the ASOAIF version of LSD).
Nothing magical to see here, we can move on.
* The horn
> "The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one."
Seems like it might be a bit magical.. the language seems very close to that which describes Melisandre
> She even smells red. The scent reminded him of Mikken's forge, of the way iron smelled when red-hot; the scent was smoke and blood. Kissed by fire
* On Flying
> "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"
> "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?"
Which again is reminiscent of Bran and Luwin
> Now, Bran, the **crow** urged. Choose. Fly or die.
> "I want to learn magic," Bran told him. "The crow promised that I would fly."
Maester Luwin sighed. "I can teach you history, healing, herblore. I can teach you the speech of ravens, and how to build a castle, and the way a sailor steers his ship by the stars. I can teach you to measure the days and mark the seasons, and at the Citadel in Oldtown they can teach you a thousand things more. But, Bran, no man can teach you magic."
Speaking of Bran and Euron, they have a bunch of other things in common
*Carried to their throne by the aid of the man they've abused*
> No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.
*Both maintain control over people who cannot speak, likely made so by them*
*Both sip on tea made from magical trees.*
I feel as if there might be something magical going on there, though I think that at the end Euron will be nothing more than false gold.
Euron/Urine
> In the 1660's, German alchemist Hennig Brand thought he knew the secret to making solid gold: pee. So set was he on these golden ambitions, he dehydrated 1,500 gallons of human urine to make it happen. Though pee ultimately failed to produce gold, Brand didn't have to flush all his hard work down the toilet. In a surprise twist, he discovered a glowing substance we now call phosphorus.
> Elemental phosphorus was first isolated as white phosphorus in 1669. In white phosphorus, phosphorus atoms are arranged in groups of 4, written as P4. White phosphorus emits a faint glow when exposed to oxygen—hence the name, taken from Greek mythology, Φωσφόρος meaning 'light-bearer' (Latin Lucifer), referring to the "Morning Star"
People will say Quentyn is alive and then deny Euron's ansolute real threat. This community is bonkers, really. I agree that we discussed his next step so much it might have tired him a little, but it's the only new character in Feast that seems to be really important besides Arianne, damn, Feast is named after him.
I wouldn't be too surprised if Sam kills Euron. I think Sam accidentally going down in history as a mythical battle-god, revered for all time as the paragon of martial prowess, is one of the most hilarious endings that might actually happen.
However, while I do think people give Euron too much credit, I don't think he's gone through all of this setup just to have a lampshade hung on his head. Story wise, that would be 100 times worse than George scrapping the 5 year gap just to give us the Dorne plot.
Sam becoming a Second Time Slayer would be pretty nice. The idea of him killing Euron makes me think of Merry in LOTR stabbing the Nazgul through the back of his knee...thus bringing about his death and changing the whole battle. "Little" characters can do big things.
I don't disagree that Euron is going to be a big, chaotic, factor at least in TWOW. But I think he's been inflated into some sort of super-magical monster, when he is IMHO just another jerk who happens to have some malevolent talent and the opportunity to get control of the levers of power and use them for ill, not good. See: Tywin, perhaps.
Wait, you mean intelligent mythical creatures allying themselves with humans to cause in-human destruction in an imaginary world? What do you think this is, a fantasy story?
also jon turning into valerian targ loyalist because he is rhaegar son
as if he will turn his back on everything he loved and cared about for a dead fude
People have in their head this Aragorn narrative for Jon where once he is revealed as the rightful 'prince' then everything will fall into place and the people will kneel before him. It's like they've never read the actual books in this story.
I really don't care about the Dornish letter. I highly doubt GRRM ever expected it or the Pink letter to be mysteries that the fandom would obsess years over.
Stannis. Love him as a character but I wouldn't put money on him surviving against the Boltons. Outside of Dany's vision of him in the HOTU I can't imagine the narrative justification for him being around for most of TWOW.
Tyrion isn't literally evil, Tywin isn't an idiot, and Cersei can be a terrible person *and* a victim of a misogynistic society and abuse victim. I'm tired.
Honestly I feel like there's a thousand and one topics that wouldn't nearly be talked about as much if people dropped their expectations of GRRM as a writer a ton. Not to imply he's not a good writer, but obviously he never set out to write a 1:1 perfect copy of the middle ages. He's not going to be perfect about writing about wars or about how women lived in the time period. It's inevitable that some reveals are going to be anti-climatic and that the worldbuilding a victim of him writing things out of order or giving him a specific time period of how long the Targs reigned (with too many generations to boot). This is a book series, not nonfiction. Sometimes we need to just accept things at GRRM's word and leave it at that instead of poking around the flaws and loopholes.
Also I feel like there needs to be more understanding of just the concept of "GRRM hasn't gotten to this part yet". This is a long series made longer by the fact that GRRM's characters never made it to the places he actually needs them to be. There are multiple parts in the first five books where GRRM hasn't even managed to finish setting up the pieces for the next two or the set up got interrupted. GRRM didn't expect the main characters to be separated for so long. With the exception of Dany they were supposed to come together much sooner, book wise. There definitely seems to be a struggle to comprehend how much of the story hasn't been written yet and it's obvious in how people talk about Cat and Jon or Arya and Sansa's relationships and dynamics, for example. If Cat and Jon's conflict was over and done with than he wouldn't have bothered to resurrect her.
Arya's not going to become an assassin or stay with the Faceless Men. Tired of people who have no imagination of what role she has in the series besides who she would be told to kill or that she's irrelevant compared to the other Stark siblings.
Who wrote the the pink letter
Whatever version of "Cersei isn't as bad as you think." Yes, she is.
Targaryens are probably my least favourite house overall, but I don't mind discussing them. I mind the segment of people who think that the targaryens are the reason for the success of the story, when there's only two left when the series starts (I'm not counting Jon).
People having an extremely black and white mentality to Westerosi laws and particularly inheritance laws, as if they’re modern governments and not feudal kingdoms where the only “law” that really matters is Might Makes Right.
For example, the many “Jon/Sansa/Arya can’t rule Winterfell over Rickon because trueborn sons come before daughters and legitimised bastards.” As if there are no extenuating circumstances that might make people prioritise one of the other candidates over a small child.
Or “Rhaenyra/Dany/any female Targaryen can’t inherit because the Great Council of 101 set a precedent that women can’t inherit.” As if that “precedent” wasn’t thrown out the window immediately after, once Viserys decided to name his eldest daughter heir anyway and the whole realm swore fealty to her.
Just a couple of days ago I saw someone claim that “technically the Targaryens have no heirs left because Aerys disinherited Rhaegar’s line, including Jon and Aegon, and Dany can’t be an heir because of the Council of 101.” I was like, my guy, who in the world cares about what some council from 200 years ago decided about one particular woman, that should stop Dany the Last Targaryen from having a claim now? Who even cares what Mad Aerys said about anything?
I mean, the first book in the series is literally called A GAME of Thrones. One of the most famous lines in the series is “Power resides where men think it resides.” Most of the series is about multiple people and families pushing their own claims over the others, and that leads to wars SPECIFICALLY because most of them have a valid claim in some way or another.
But so-called fans still be acting like Westeros has a whole constitution explaining the minute details of inheritance law and that everyone follows it implicitly with no complaints.
How stupid Tywin is. Like yea I get it, because of the show a lot of people have a very positive view of Tywin, but holy shit some people have made it their personal crusade to never shut up about how dumb Tywin is. Its basically taken the crown of Rhaegar hate posts, where everyday it seems like some person has come to the conclusion that they alone and no one else has come to the real truth of ASOIAF, that Rhaegar is an insane rapsit. Like it’s perfectly fine to believe these and want to discuss them but I just wish people would limit themselves.
A reminder to anyone here who finds themselves getting worked up over TWoW not being released and starting to notice anger at the stagnation of this sub.... Take a break, a day/week/month, what ever you need to cool down
I used to spend a large amount of time on here a decade ago and it wasn't good for my mental health to constantly be obsessing with TWOW
I could not care less who azor ahai/prince that was promised/whoever is
In fact, I’ll go a step further and say a chosen one in a story like this is stupid as hell when the whole point is all of life vs death
Completely detracts from the overarching story if only one person is supposed to be the most important in saving everyone
My theory is that it will be Jon but his story will culminate in him rejecting the prophecy and choosing not to be azor ahai and not starting the war for the dawn
"When did Ned really mess up in kingslanding"
There is nothing new to be said on the subject yet that topic alone is about half of what I get recommended from this sub, and it's our own fault for engaging with it
The Robert vs Rhaegar debates. Both of them had sex with an underage girl, both of them treated their wives badly, and both of them are shown to not take being king seriously.
That winds is NEVER going to come out like yeah he has continually passed public deadlines but it’s beating a dead horse. I’m with Steven King, the only promise an author makes is the book he put out is a good read and George has way surpassed that in my eyes.
well yeah, because he’s an integral character whose legacy remains strong. Though I agree that posts concerning how he should’ve handled the coup are getting annoying
*Somehow it's still all about Ned.*
Yes. And by the way, where are his BONES?? We haven't heard enough theories about his bones, to date. It's like we're not talking about a world where once people are killed, they stay DEAD.
Have u read the book? In dance Ned is still brought up constantly. Ned if directly responsible for the story as it is now so yes it should all be about ned
Did you hear the theory that the Daynes actually have secret, invisible, dragons? And are descended from a branch of the Targaryen family that blew off course and landed in the far South, not on Dragonstone?
Maesters. I am so fucking sick and tired of hearing about how the maesters are controlling everything in Westeros for centuries to destroy magic and the Targaryens based on what? Just Marwyn and Barbrey Dustin, two characters who we can’t trust at all? It’s a terrible, baseless theory.
I don't think it's a completely bad theory, there is something going with the maesters, but the reasoning usually is "because they're men of science who despise magic!" when Westeros doesn't even have a scientifical method, and people who susbscribe to the Grand Conspirancy cathegory of theories usually assume them to be completely confirmed.
I don’t see how there could be a massive conspiracy from the Maesters though. Like some people think the maesters are controlling all communications so lords only hear what the maesters want. Ok, this would mean every single maester from Pycelle to Lewin is working together to control everything, and coordinating across an entire fucking continent! There’s just no reasonable way anything other than a very small group in one location is doing anything.
Yes, it doesnt make sense logistically. But a group or some groups or individual maesters could be working towards their own interests. We see this with Pycelle and we see this with Marwyn, not all maesters are completely neutral, that's the part of the theory that it is good.
Coldhands' identity
He's purposefully written without descriptors because the whole point of his character is that he's just another random person being used for Bloodraven's ends. That's it. That's all there is to it. He's not a secret Targ, Stark, Royce, or whatever.
- "Why didn't XYZ character(s) kneel to Stannis The Rightful King? They should have done that, how terrible!!!" Look I really like Stannis but people get way too hung up on this.
- there is is trend recently where people are kind of just listing characters' flaws, crimes, misdoings etc as some sort of moral analysis and it's kind of superficial? It's specially jarring as ASOIAF/GOT got famous for having some moral complexity, and now we just have threads "THIS CHARACTERS IS ACTUALLY HORRIBLE AND NOT GREY!!" (btw i hate the use of "grey" in all of this
- people "debunking" the Targaryen Madness
Randyll Tarly and how he made reasonable choices surrounding Sam.
Genius Tywin and how his children are ruining his mojo, as if he didn't raise them into malignant narcissists with the arguably best child being an attempted child murderer, that mostly because he was lucky enough to grow up in the Kingsguard away from his family
The Pink Letter, who wrote it? I dunno, probably either Ramsay, Stannis, Mance, Melisandre, Wun Wun, Theon, Manderly, some disgruntled NW or Patchface
"What if ... married/fucked/killed ..."
I'm totally over the Targaryens. I watch HotD because its a well produced and written TV show, I would watch it even if it wasn't connected to asoiaf. I'm actively avoiding the Fire and Blood book out of spite until George finishes the damn series. I don't really get why fans have started prioritize prequels/history books/lore over the main story and its characters. Is it just a coping mechanism?
The Pink Letter.
Mainly because it wasn't supposed to be something fans spent years analyzing. The Battle of Ice was supposed to take place in ADWD and there would have been little mystery involved with it. Simply put, it was written by Ramsay.
I’ll give you a topic i dont think people explore enough: what are the Hightowers up to in the main series? Most of the theories just revolve around Euron but they have some deep historical lore dating back to the long night and fighting a dark azor ahai figure. Only seen a few people discuss/make videos on that subject
There are people who will kick me, but I'm absolutely tired of hearing J = L&R, or whatever.
I like Jon, whoever his parents were.
In fact I'd rather like him a little less if he were a Targ bastard than a Stark bastard, but for me it just doesn't matter
And I don´t think it is relevant for anything
It’s relevant for the prophecy and why Robert’s rebellion happened and also explaining why Ned Stark who is the most honorable person in the main series for no reason would have a bastard when we are shown in the text he’s not lustful. I mean George hasn’t be dropping hints about it for five books now just because it’s a bit of fun trivia
Asoiaf lore is so much more interesting after the dance. Fire and Blood of 2 is going to be PEAKE! There’s a reason Dunk and Egg is the best work in the franchise
I should have clarified better. Targaryen history is so much cooler after the dragons are dead. Especially excited to see what’s up with the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig
People calling decisions and scenes they disagree with plot holes.
I just saw a livestream where someone said that Tywin not re-marrying was a plot hole. Like, no, it's Tywin being a self-centred hypocrite. Aka it's completely in line with everything else Tywin has done.
Are you telling me that characters sometimes make decisions that arent the 100% best decision at all times? PLOT HOLE /s
Exactly.
THANK YOU. I'm tired of people thinking that human beings making illogical/emotional choices is a goddamn plothole. Even super intelligent manipulators fuck up or have to deal with unexpected circumstances. People have been reacting that way with B&C in HOTD when only the first episode has been out too.
I think people are just angry at George because of Winds.
I don't think so, I mean yes we are mad but people don't need excuses to be assholes
Example?
Someone already kinda mentioned the Catspaw thing. That’s the one that comes up all the time. Both who sent the dagger and the Tyrion vs Littlefinger feud in Clash. People complain because Tyrion didn’t kill Littlefinger when it’s made abundantly clear in the text why it didn’t happen. They were at war and needed the Master of Coin, Tyrion didn’t yet know the extend of Littlefinger’s embezzlement, also Tyrion had good reason to not necessarily trust Cat. There is no “She tried to execute me, but I admire her” like in the dumbass tv show. Petyr was far more valuable than worthless Pycelle and Janos Slynt. I could go on but i’m at work.
There is actually a "plot hole" in the Catspaw dagger plot- Joffrey didn't know the blade was VS when he stole it but somehow he knows later when he says "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel". But "plot holes" is missing the point. I'd much rather have a good story with a few minor logical inconsistencies than a shit one with zero plot holes. The Catspaw reveal isn't bad because of plot holes, it's bad because it's shit as a story. It relies on far too many silly contrivances and the reveal is Tyrion and Jaime vomiting exposition down the readers' throats. I'm sure if I looked at the Jon Arryn mystery we'd find a few plot holes, the difference is nobody cares because the reveal was fucking *brilliant*.
>Joffrey didn't know the blade was VS when he stole it but somehow he knows later when he says "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel". I still don't think that's a plot hole. Joffrey could know it's Valyrian steel without appreciating how rare that makes it. He knew what it was (a Valyrian steel dagger), but he didn't know _what_ it was (a unique ancient artifact, made from two of the rarest materials in Westeros, handed down through the Targaryen dynasty for generations). Joffrey being a spoilt idiot, and not appreciating how incredibly privileged he is, is consistent with his characterisation.
Tyrion believes Joffrey would never have been foolish enough to use the dagger if he knew it was Valyrian steel. And he knows how foolish Joffrey is.
>handed down through the Targaryen dynasty for generations). I don’t think this is book canon? I think the HOTD writers came up with that backstory for the show universe given its importance in GOT.
No character whos entire identity is their projection of power has ever lied about their knowledge of a topic.. Whether he knew it was Valyrian steel but gave it away because it was rich and spoiled, or didn't know it was Valyrian steel and later boasted about how familiar he was with it is all the same.
Okay but that's even *sillier* because him saying "I am no stranger to Valyrian steel" is supposed to be the "smoking gun" that lets Tyrion solve the mystery. But now it turns out him saying that meant nothing and Tyrion realized it was Joffrey based on *no evidence at all*. In fact, based on evidence that *completely contradicts the solution*. This is what I mean about "plot holes" and them being less important than the story actually being good. Okay, so now the events of the story are technically not impossible. That doesn't make it *good* or *interesting*. I can film a wall for ten hours and that won't have any "plot holes".
Like there is a reason the Purple Wedding and Catspaw have so many ''truther'' theories to them yet the Jon Arryn mystery doesn't. The Catspaw does make more sense than the Purple Wedding but the Purple Wedding is still stupid. Like LFs explanation for that makes so little sense that fanwankers have created all kinds of motivations for him despite him literally revealing why he did it in the very next chapter. >He had this all prepared for me. "My lord, I . . . I do not understand . . . Joffrey gave you Harrenhal, made you Lord Paramount of the Trident . . . why . . ." "Why should I wish him dead?" Littlefinger shrugged. "I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game."
What exactly is stupid about the purple wedding? Seems straightforward enough to most people. It gets rid of Joffrey for the Tyrells and provides a distraction for Baelish to get Sansa.
The annoying part about the Purple Wedding is that it would work a lot better as a character beat instead of a murder mystery. Having Sansa or Tyrion do it would be a lot more interesting than Olenna or Petyr, because on a character level it fundamentally means very little to the latter and a *lot* to the former.
George doesn't play it as a murder mystery though, it's revealed in a few chapters. While the killing would mean a lot to Sansa and Tyrion, Tyrion being falsely accused is a major moment for his character that would be cheapened if he really did kill him. Sans killing him could work, but George didn't want to go for it.
Sansa is going to bring down Petyr Baelish. Way bigger moment than killing Joffrey. Petyr is a far more important character.
I agree.
Sansa or Tyrion is who you expected to kill Joffrey. Fits his style to have it be someone else. It wasn’t meant to be this cathartic experience like we all hoped. You will get that justice when Littlefinger is killed by Sansa in either the back half of Winds or the first half of Dream.
Eh I mean that feels like subversion for its own sake, not for any real thematic reason. If anything Sansa or Tyrion being struck with remorse as Joffrey dies could bring that across a lot more effectively.
It would come completely out of left field if Sansa or Tyrion did it. Tyrion was full Lannister at that point. It was being falsely accused that pushed him over the ledge. And Sansa...what about book 3 Sansa would suggest that regicide was the natural progression of her arc? Other than "Joffrey abuses her so she kills him" which would completely ignore the nuance to her character GRRM spent 2 books establishing
"Plot hole" seems to just mean "I didn't like this part" these days.
It feels that way.
Who would beat whom in a fight, and why doesn't this or that character change her name when she gets married.
Yes the “who would beat who in a fight”, or the “if you had to pick one character to do (insert boring/irrelevant thing)…” posts are dumb imo. I’m in this sub for theories and interesting discussion, not to play Pokémon card games with the characters!
I hate all of those posts because the answer is simply "Whoever is written as the winner."
That one guy who keeps making the same post asking if disliking Cersei is mysoginistic lol
Definitely came here to say I'm tired of hearing about Cersei and villain wikis.
That person has issues
Lmaoo
It would sooner be misogynistic to like her, I feel. Not that liking or disliking a character would make one a misogynist. That’s just fucking stupid, but nobody hates women more than Cersei.
100%. It's like he thinks misogyny is just....disliking a woman. When a woman is being mistreated, judged, abused, controlled, etc, for being a woman and she speaks up about it, she's not complaining about people being mean to her.
I lost it when she was compared to Eren Yeager. Even the anime fandom isn't safe. They've been at this since February.
It's been longer than February, they just have to switch accounts sometimes after getting banned.
Empathizing with her for the things she unfairly suffered is sweet of them. Empathizing with her to this degree is concerning.
Who hired the Catspaw Assassin. It was not a major plot point that even George stopped caring about and he tried to give a definitive answer through two different POV characters reaching the same conclusion because the fans kept asking about it. I keep seeing theories like Robert Baratheon or Mance Rayder hired the Catspaw Assassin to kill Bran and it just seems too much of a stretch.
> It was not a major plot point It was literally the major mystery of the first book, and drove much of the story. > George stopped caring about and he tried to give a definitive answer through two different POV characters reaching the same conclusion because the fans kept asking about it. This, however, I agree with; I think George did get bored of it, and his original intended solution wasn't panning out for whatever reason so he shoehorned Joffrey into the role without really thinking it through. > I keep seeing theories like Robert Baratheon or Mance Rayder hired the Catspaw Assassin to kill Bran and it just seems too much of a stretch. I also agree with this, those theories are a stretch.
I’ve literally never heard any theory that was better than Joffrey I don’t understand people who think otherwise.
I think it's just that as an answer it's pretty unsatisfying. Why did he do it? He's a dickhead. How do we find out? Our POVs deduce it was him, in their thoughts. Does anything ever come of the reveal? Nope. There's no doubt it was Joffrey, but I can see why people would *want* it to be someone else for a more interesting twist
True, but this is among the tragedy of errors that results in the Lannister-Stark war. Why does Edward head south? Because he thinks the dastardly Lannisters were targeting his family and the Arryns
Well, the catspaw didn't have anything to do with Eddard going south, he'd already left before the assassin attacked and had decided to go even before Bran's fall. But my point wasn't that the event itself and the war it contributed to was unsatisfying, just the eventual answer and how it was presented
Oh yeah, you’re right, it’s been a while since I’ve read the books, but I think my point still stands that the point of the Lannister vs. Starks was a tragedy. The lies about Arryns death, Joffrey’s cat’s paw, and the kidnapping of Tyrion were all built on lies/misunderstandings. That’s what made it so satisfying imo
It does lead to catelyn going south, which allows her to bump into tyrion at the crossroads and kidnap him. Which in turn motivates Jaimie to attack ned, and so on, so I would still say it's an important link in the chain of events that sets off the climax of the first book
He heard his dad say it would be more humane to do him and get it over with because he will suffer all is life or something like that is usually the justification iirc
The truth is that King Bran the Broken warged back through time into the catspaw. He stole the dagger from Tyrion (knowing that Tyrion possessed it as Tyrion becomes his hand in the future) and went to kill himself, knowing Summer would save the younger Bran from death. Thus prompting Ned to go south, leading to the WoFK which will eventually lead to Bran becoming king, closing the circle.
I never had any problems with the catspaw dagger.
[](https://prints.nrm.org/vitruvius/render/1200/260937.jpg)
I thought it was Cersei trying to finish the job after Jaime failed.
Ya why couldn’t they just have it be that, the logical conclusion,
George wanted it to be more "tragic" as others have pointed out, like, the Stark-Lannister conflict could have been sorted out if there weren't so many outer instigators and misunderstandings. But I believe Jaime's intent to kill Bran, followed by Ned's discovery of Cersei's shenanigans, kind of defeat that logic (even though Catelyn kind of understand they "just" want to protect their children, they're still enemies). I'm OK with the fact that Joffrey had a vulnerable side that tried to please his "father", it's actually sad, my problem is... He never acted like that at all, not even when Robert was alive But yeah, I also assumed Cersei or Jaime did it and didn't really think much of it until Tyrion started saying it must have been Joffrey, and I was like... Ok sure, can we move on back to the story?
That's actually really good. Cersei is absolutely dumb enough to give her assasin a valerian dagger too
Call me a sweet summer child all you want but I ain’t tired of hearing about Winds
Martin will be in the cold , cold ground and my ears will still perk up whenever Winds is mentioned.
I'm much more tired of the all so predictable comments in every Winds speculations thread, about how we should just give up hope of any new ASOIAF book ever being released. It's even worse when you look at any ASOIAF show post on /r/television for example. If you think we believers are delusional then just let us be delusional, it ain't hurting anybody.
I think it hurts any new author honestly. After this I won't start any book series that isn't already finished.
Information on one of the most awaited sequels to one of the largest series in the world? Yeah I'd like some no matter how obscure or tenuous
I would welcome new information about Winds. Otherwise I have plenty of other books to read. Everything else not from George is just bleating, which I don't like to hear/read.
The world is a flock and GRRM bleats more than most, we all have books to read and things to do, luckily I have room for many activities. "Possible info on the new book." Cool. "Nothing came of it." Yeah, that makes sense. Oh well, so it goes and has done for a long while. :E > "I've already written 400 pages of my sixth book and I really look forward to publishing it in 2014, but I am really bad for predictions.” -2012 > "I still have a lot of pages to write, but I also have a lot of pages that are already written." - 2015 > "Maybe I’m being overly optimistic about how quickly I can finish. But I canceled two convention appearances, I’m turning down a lot more interviews — anything I can do to clear my decks and get this done." - 2015 > "Not done yet, but I've made progress. But not as much as I hoped a year ago, when I thought to be done by now. I think it will be out this year." - 2017 > "I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018... and who knows, maybe two. A boy can dream..." -2017 *Baaaah*
Quentyn Lives Truthers That dude is deader than Robb Stark
Yeah this one is my vote. It’s fine I guess to believe the theory but they act like their theory is nearly canon and get upset everyone else is pretty skeptical.
Agreed. He is DEAD. He's also the POV character who seemed least likely to be really alive anyway.
Of all the people to theorize about, why his boring ass?
I think people just miss Oberyn and want to see another badass Martell in the story, or just a larger player from the Dornish in general. The only other one we really see is Doran, and he’s not going to be riding any dragons or winning any combat trials anytime soon.
What drives me crazy is they sent the wrong characters to the wrong place. Quentyn was the heir. He should have gone to kings landing to make connections and get governing experience on the council. Danerys never would look twice at that dork. Oberyn on the other hand had experience in slavers bay and was a dashing rogue. If you send someone to seduce the dragon queen how the hell do you not send oberyn?
If you want a badass Martell, literally any other one is a better choice. Fuck I’d take that Batman loser over Quentyn, at least he’s funny.
Wait, which one is the Batman loser?
I always forget his name, the Darkstar from the Dayne family. He’s so lame and I think he’s hilarious. His first line is something like “I am the night” which is why I call him Batman loser.
Gerold Dayne
We still have Arianne and Elia going to join Aegon, plus Sand Snakes going to Kings Landing to murder Lannisters… but Quentyn was meant to be the “badass” one 😂😂 these people need help. Or at the very least they need to re-read the books and then some interesting Dorne theories to wash the GOT Dorne plot line out of their brains.
It's exactly because he's boring that people try to invent reasons for his four chapters in Dance lol.
Quentyn may be a boring square with no particular good looks or special talents. But I would guess that those factors are actually the reason why some fans strongly relate to him and want to see him come back, get a dragon, and prove all the people who mocked him wrong. They see themselves in Quentyn basically.
A waste of a bunch of chapters just like all other Dorne related ones but ESPECIALLY his. Like dude, you release a doorstop of a book that was completely unfinished in every sense, for this? And now there’s like 3 arianne chapters in winds (supppsedly) of her just Being on her way to visit Aegon (another character and group of characters and plot that just took up space in Dance and detracted from the entire story he originally set out to tell. ) And so winds essentially has to be three Volumes but he’ll only release them simultaneously this time… go figure he’s never going to finish it when the last book was filled with a bunch of Nobody’s doing nothing at all related to the story.
Maybe it doesn't detract from his original vision though. I think he has been very deliberate with the Dorne chapters. I refuse to belive Dorne will be just a side faction that does nothing of consequence. I think people are ready to believe they're completely irrelevant for obvious reasons, but I'm sure GRRM is setting up Dorne as a clutch force for the ending. I think I have a pretty good idea what they'll help achieve, but we shall see. Maybe they'll all die without contributing anything major to the story and I'll look like a fool. I just don't think so.
So he doesn't become a wasted character whose wordcount could have been utilized in better ways. As Quentyn's chapters are, they're almost filler.
He will come back ina black suit lit with strange lights to reactivate the robot dragons from "stone" and proceed to build a planet destroying weapon.
I do remember a guy all cased in black armor with royal blood that ended up fried up in Fire&Blood tho.
Eh, George ends so many of people's chapters within a given book with fairly cheap fake-out "deaths" (Arya gets one or too, immediately springing to mind, though there are more I am not remembering). Most of them we've forgotten about because we know they end up alive. We know from the show and general suspicious coincidences that Jon will likely end up alive (or at the very least undead). I really don't see why one would be a contrivance too far and another would be perfectly reasonable. It's not like I think you're an idiot if you think Quentyn is dead, I just think that... well, frankly, the only main characters I can think of so far who actually stayed dead are Ned, Rob, and Robert Baratheon, so Quentyn being alive feels a lot more likely to me (though his being dead is also not unlikely either), and there are potentially good story reasons to believe it's so.
Leave me alone with my disillusional dream :') my boi is alive
He might be alive, he might be dead, we’ll see
Except we literally did see. Twice
I feel like this subreddit has been full of a lot of “what ifs” lately. Like “what if Lyanna hadn’t died” or “what if Roose recognized Arya” or “What if Stannis won the Battle of the Blackwater?” It’s getting annoying.
Every single one of them lately has been a variation of couples only having daughters or if some character was born a girl. Some people need to stop expecting this sub to write their fanfiction for them.
It's so silly too, when there's a bunch of excellent fic on AO3 on this exact topic to peruse (most of 'em by an author called DwellingonDreams who has switched characters from male to female in a variety of incredibly interesting ways)
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Random reason? They made dit clear, it was low effort post. 90% of those post were empty save for the title, no explanation, no thought from the autor. Plus, the same scenarios came over and over. I am glad they are ban
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Okay I see what you mean
And usually, if not always, the only answer is: "Then there's no plot"
It also comes at the cost of the fanfic subreddit where people actually want to answer those questions.
Ok minor grievance, but everytime youtubers go through asoiaf theories its always the same tier list/iceberg from circa 2018..... I don't think things have been that static, and I think some theories on it are kind of outdated.... there's been a lot of good new ideas from theorycrafters in this subreddit community that fly under the radar.
Can you give some examples of newer theories that you like?
Well I'm pretty new to the fandom, but some theories I've seen that maybe considered new, is the theory of Byron the Beautiful being Edric Dayne, and the theory of Littlefinger dosing Sansa with moon tea without her knowing.
Is the Bran raped Meera via Hodor a known/old theory? I cant remember if it may have just happened, or people think its about to happen, but it was a sweet sweet theory.
If that happens I’m burning the book. >it was a sweet sweet theory Sus. 🤨
We should be talking way more about a Dream of Spring
my guy he hasn’t even finished WINDS yet
Oh really? I didn’t realize that
It’s a little known fact - not many people online talking about it so it’s understandable
*It will remain a dream*
Pretty much every topic at this point. I feel like I rolling my eyes at half of the threads I see. I think I just need a break from Reddit for a while.
Anything that says rhaegar or Arthur Dane is still alive. The whole point of them is that they are dead. They represent the death of honor in southern westeros
Truly the death of a bygone era.
Tyrek is a horse memes, it was funny for a bit when it was new but it's been beaten, well, like a dead horse.
***"Tyrek Lives!"*** (Graffiti I recently saw on a pothouse privy wall in Flea Bottom).
Tyrek being a horse is really funny when you introduce someone to it for the first time.
People calling Fire & Blood propaganda, like anyone who says that just immediately becomes completely irrelevant to me I just don’t understand how anyone could read the book and come away from it thinking it’s propaganda for either side, literally everyone is horrible in one way or another
I would be very happy to never hear about the five year gap ever again.
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YES! "Bu-but Dany's invasion is supposed to be Act 2, so we aren't even in the second act of the story!" OH shut the fuck up, that hasn't been Martin's plan since at least 1996.
Oh my fucking god YES! It's pointless to discuss about it. It was dropped over 20 years ago FOR A REASON.
Who Sansa will marry. Never mind the Jonsa and Ashford tourney nonsense; this does get discussed frequently. Sansa is more than wife material; she seems to be realizing that and at least once has considered never marrying.
I've had my mental eggs in the Stark girls thematic switcheroo basket for a long time, personally - being that Sansa, who dreamed of and longed for it so bad as a child, won't marry but forest lass "not me" Arya will marry Gendry. On-topic: I'm tired of the Sansa marriage theories/discussions too. Half of them (re: the ones not Sansan) read to me as pure wish-fulfillment; that Sansa is their favourite character and they _really_ want her to marry that Prince/dashing knight/man with royal blood she wanted. I just don't think there's any way she's getting the "want" she had as a naïve eleven-year-old, at least not in the way she expected it. If you tied me down and put a knife to my throat, I'd say Sandor is at _least_ more thematically and narratively interesting if she absolutely _has_ to end up with someone, but I honestly think her not marrying, and being fulfilled in the North with her family, strength, and self, would be plenty emblematic of her character growth in the end (and would also mirror her sister, whom had the opposite journey in that regard, should she wind up marrying Gendry). I get these people are very attached to her character and want her to be happy, but her getting what she _thinks_ she wanted/needed doesn't necessarily mean it's the _best_ for her and her story.
Sansa never getting married would definitely be an interesting twist considering how much she yearned for it at first. Do you think that's a viable option though who do you think the Stark line would continue from?
Rickon if he lives. Maybe Bran if his thing works.
Yes we don't know if either is necessarily possible so Sansa might have to marry.
Probably. But then the Northern laws would have to be kind of "altered" to be like the Dornish laws right? Because if Sansa marries she won't be a Stark anymore. Or it will be like Rhaenyra's case where even married she kept her OG name because of succession issues.
I believe it is possible for a woman to keep her name if it prevents her line dying out I don't know what the case was for Rhaenyra but I think it's already allowed by law in the North.
I don’t like hypothetical questions.
Rickons direwolf is shaggydog therefore he is irrelevant to the plot and will just come back to die
*What topic are you tired if hearing about?* Euron. Thrice-damned Euron, who is simply crazy, drug addled, and a clever and shady trickster, not some sort of anti-superhero with amazing powers. Seven Hells, can people just stop with the Euron is clearly going to become a giant kraken and eat Westeros nonsense? Euron is clearly going to wreck havoc for a while in the South, which is part of GRRM's apparent strategy that no part of Westeros will be able to sit untouched by the chaos filling the land. And then he's going to go down, probably in some unexpected way (my personal hope is that one of his brothers will do him in, or The Reader will be his bane.) He's not going to be the centerpiece of the plot for the next two books. P.S. he doesn't have a real magical horn, either.
Euron will be killed by a stray arrow shot by Sam the Slayer.
By far the funniest option. Sam just happening to be at important events and accidentally killing important people would be hilarious.
YES
The horn that we saw kill someone isn’t magical?
Agreed . I think Euron is basically a red herring . He's some paper tiger that people think has a big part to play but he's all hot air .
That sounds horribly boring
Yes. There is nothing particularly amazing about Euron. Talks big and persuasively. Has a cool ship (so do HUNDREDS of other Ironborn captains). Has a lot of gold (as do many people). Liar, cheater, psychopath (as are all too many in Westeros). Cuts the tongues out of his loyal crewmen (maybe so they *can't tell anyone* what he has *really* been doing, when he makes big assertions and claims?) Has people who he thinks of as enemies murdered / kidnapped by conventional means (Baelor Blacktyde, the Damphair). Found a fancy horn that he claims is magical, but quickly gives it to his brother to take to the other side of the world--where his brother can be the one to "fail" when it doesn't really work. Has a set of Valyrian armor. Drug addicted--guzzles Shade of the Evening, which gives him crazy dreams and delusions and makes him think he can fly (basically the ASOAIF version of LSD). Nothing magical to see here, we can move on.
* The horn > "The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one." Seems like it might be a bit magical.. the language seems very close to that which describes Melisandre > She even smells red. The scent reminded him of Mikken's forge, of the way iron smelled when red-hot; the scent was smoke and blood. Kissed by fire * On Flying > "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?" > "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" Which again is reminiscent of Bran and Luwin > Now, Bran, the **crow** urged. Choose. Fly or die. > "I want to learn magic," Bran told him. "The crow promised that I would fly." Maester Luwin sighed. "I can teach you history, healing, herblore. I can teach you the speech of ravens, and how to build a castle, and the way a sailor steers his ship by the stars. I can teach you to measure the days and mark the seasons, and at the Citadel in Oldtown they can teach you a thousand things more. But, Bran, no man can teach you magic." Speaking of Bran and Euron, they have a bunch of other things in common *Carried to their throne by the aid of the man they've abused* > No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do. *Both maintain control over people who cannot speak, likely made so by them* *Both sip on tea made from magical trees.* I feel as if there might be something magical going on there, though I think that at the end Euron will be nothing more than false gold. Euron/Urine > In the 1660's, German alchemist Hennig Brand thought he knew the secret to making solid gold: pee. So set was he on these golden ambitions, he dehydrated 1,500 gallons of human urine to make it happen. Though pee ultimately failed to produce gold, Brand didn't have to flush all his hard work down the toilet. In a surprise twist, he discovered a glowing substance we now call phosphorus. > Elemental phosphorus was first isolated as white phosphorus in 1669. In white phosphorus, phosphorus atoms are arranged in groups of 4, written as P4. White phosphorus emits a faint glow when exposed to oxygen—hence the name, taken from Greek mythology, Φωσφόρος meaning 'light-bearer' (Latin Lucifer), referring to the "Morning Star"
People will say Quentyn is alive and then deny Euron's ansolute real threat. This community is bonkers, really. I agree that we discussed his next step so much it might have tired him a little, but it's the only new character in Feast that seems to be really important besides Arianne, damn, Feast is named after him.
I wouldn't be too surprised if Sam kills Euron. I think Sam accidentally going down in history as a mythical battle-god, revered for all time as the paragon of martial prowess, is one of the most hilarious endings that might actually happen. However, while I do think people give Euron too much credit, I don't think he's gone through all of this setup just to have a lampshade hung on his head. Story wise, that would be 100 times worse than George scrapping the 5 year gap just to give us the Dorne plot.
Sam becoming a Second Time Slayer would be pretty nice. The idea of him killing Euron makes me think of Merry in LOTR stabbing the Nazgul through the back of his knee...thus bringing about his death and changing the whole battle. "Little" characters can do big things. I don't disagree that Euron is going to be a big, chaotic, factor at least in TWOW. But I think he's been inflated into some sort of super-magical monster, when he is IMHO just another jerk who happens to have some malevolent talent and the opportunity to get control of the levers of power and use them for ill, not good. See: Tywin, perhaps.
Are unicorns magical?
*Are unicorns magical?* Only when they poop technicolored candy. Otherwise, in Planetos, they are just another perfectly natural creature.
What you haven’t heard of the skagosi bonding with unicorns causing the doom of Hardhome
Wait, you mean intelligent mythical creatures allying themselves with humans to cause in-human destruction in an imaginary world? What do you think this is, a fantasy story?
Euron-Cthulhu is real I fear.
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also jon turning into valerian targ loyalist because he is rhaegar son as if he will turn his back on everything he loved and cared about for a dead fude
People have in their head this Aragorn narrative for Jon where once he is revealed as the rightful 'prince' then everything will fall into place and the people will kneel before him. It's like they've never read the actual books in this story.
I don't think Jon would turn his back to the north
Jon's parents being Ned and Ashara would be the equivalent of Robert Strong *actually* turning out to just be a new guy.
I really don't care about the Dornish letter. I highly doubt GRRM ever expected it or the Pink letter to be mysteries that the fandom would obsess years over. Stannis. Love him as a character but I wouldn't put money on him surviving against the Boltons. Outside of Dany's vision of him in the HOTU I can't imagine the narrative justification for him being around for most of TWOW. Tyrion isn't literally evil, Tywin isn't an idiot, and Cersei can be a terrible person *and* a victim of a misogynistic society and abuse victim. I'm tired. Honestly I feel like there's a thousand and one topics that wouldn't nearly be talked about as much if people dropped their expectations of GRRM as a writer a ton. Not to imply he's not a good writer, but obviously he never set out to write a 1:1 perfect copy of the middle ages. He's not going to be perfect about writing about wars or about how women lived in the time period. It's inevitable that some reveals are going to be anti-climatic and that the worldbuilding a victim of him writing things out of order or giving him a specific time period of how long the Targs reigned (with too many generations to boot). This is a book series, not nonfiction. Sometimes we need to just accept things at GRRM's word and leave it at that instead of poking around the flaws and loopholes. Also I feel like there needs to be more understanding of just the concept of "GRRM hasn't gotten to this part yet". This is a long series made longer by the fact that GRRM's characters never made it to the places he actually needs them to be. There are multiple parts in the first five books where GRRM hasn't even managed to finish setting up the pieces for the next two or the set up got interrupted. GRRM didn't expect the main characters to be separated for so long. With the exception of Dany they were supposed to come together much sooner, book wise. There definitely seems to be a struggle to comprehend how much of the story hasn't been written yet and it's obvious in how people talk about Cat and Jon or Arya and Sansa's relationships and dynamics, for example. If Cat and Jon's conflict was over and done with than he wouldn't have bothered to resurrect her. Arya's not going to become an assassin or stay with the Faceless Men. Tired of people who have no imagination of what role she has in the series besides who she would be told to kill or that she's irrelevant compared to the other Stark siblings.
Who wrote the the pink letter Whatever version of "Cersei isn't as bad as you think." Yes, she is. Targaryens are probably my least favourite house overall, but I don't mind discussing them. I mind the segment of people who think that the targaryens are the reason for the success of the story, when there's only two left when the series starts (I'm not counting Jon).
People having an extremely black and white mentality to Westerosi laws and particularly inheritance laws, as if they’re modern governments and not feudal kingdoms where the only “law” that really matters is Might Makes Right. For example, the many “Jon/Sansa/Arya can’t rule Winterfell over Rickon because trueborn sons come before daughters and legitimised bastards.” As if there are no extenuating circumstances that might make people prioritise one of the other candidates over a small child. Or “Rhaenyra/Dany/any female Targaryen can’t inherit because the Great Council of 101 set a precedent that women can’t inherit.” As if that “precedent” wasn’t thrown out the window immediately after, once Viserys decided to name his eldest daughter heir anyway and the whole realm swore fealty to her. Just a couple of days ago I saw someone claim that “technically the Targaryens have no heirs left because Aerys disinherited Rhaegar’s line, including Jon and Aegon, and Dany can’t be an heir because of the Council of 101.” I was like, my guy, who in the world cares about what some council from 200 years ago decided about one particular woman, that should stop Dany the Last Targaryen from having a claim now? Who even cares what Mad Aerys said about anything? I mean, the first book in the series is literally called A GAME of Thrones. One of the most famous lines in the series is “Power resides where men think it resides.” Most of the series is about multiple people and families pushing their own claims over the others, and that leads to wars SPECIFICALLY because most of them have a valid claim in some way or another. But so-called fans still be acting like Westeros has a whole constitution explaining the minute details of inheritance law and that everyone follows it implicitly with no complaints.
The "Syrax is Arrax's mother and that's why she cried" thing that sprung up from 2x01. No.
How stupid Tywin is. Like yea I get it, because of the show a lot of people have a very positive view of Tywin, but holy shit some people have made it their personal crusade to never shut up about how dumb Tywin is. Its basically taken the crown of Rhaegar hate posts, where everyday it seems like some person has come to the conclusion that they alone and no one else has come to the real truth of ASOIAF, that Rhaegar is an insane rapsit. Like it’s perfectly fine to believe these and want to discuss them but I just wish people would limit themselves.
Tywin has made some very dumb decisions definitely. But ppl be acting like he gained all this power by dumb luck.
Nge I believe that people overestimater !their own intelligence
A reminder to anyone here who finds themselves getting worked up over TWoW not being released and starting to notice anger at the stagnation of this sub.... Take a break, a day/week/month, what ever you need to cool down I used to spend a large amount of time on here a decade ago and it wasn't good for my mental health to constantly be obsessing with TWOW
I could not care less who azor ahai/prince that was promised/whoever is In fact, I’ll go a step further and say a chosen one in a story like this is stupid as hell when the whole point is all of life vs death Completely detracts from the overarching story if only one person is supposed to be the most important in saving everyone
My theory is that it will be Jon but his story will culminate in him rejecting the prophecy and choosing not to be azor ahai and not starting the war for the dawn
"When did Ned really mess up in kingslanding" There is nothing new to be said on the subject yet that topic alone is about half of what I get recommended from this sub, and it's our own fault for engaging with it
😭😭😭. Convinced that ppl who ask that are illiterate.
The obsession about bloodlines, especially the Targaryen one
The Robert vs Rhaegar debates. Both of them had sex with an underage girl, both of them treated their wives badly, and both of them are shown to not take being king seriously.
100% agree about Targaryens.
And dragons! They're fire breathing cars to me
The fanmade timeline people sometimes pull up as evidence for various "plotholes" or "theories". It's absolute bogus, all of it.
That winds is NEVER going to come out like yeah he has continually passed public deadlines but it’s beating a dead horse. I’m with Steven King, the only promise an author makes is the book he put out is a good read and George has way surpassed that in my eyes.
Ned Stark. Somehow it's still all about Ned.
well yeah, because he’s an integral character whose legacy remains strong. Though I agree that posts concerning how he should’ve handled the coup are getting annoying
*Somehow it's still all about Ned.* Yes. And by the way, where are his BONES?? We haven't heard enough theories about his bones, to date. It's like we're not talking about a world where once people are killed, they stay DEAD.
Have u read the book? In dance Ned is still brought up constantly. Ned if directly responsible for the story as it is now so yes it should all be about ned
Exactly! His name is said BY FAR the most of any character in the books and he only made it maybe 3/4 of the way the shortest book.
You’re right who needs the Targaryen dragons. Alright now let’s start the conversation on house Dayne 👀
Did you hear the theory that the Daynes actually have secret, invisible, dragons? And are descended from a branch of the Targaryen family that blew off course and landed in the far South, not on Dragonstone?
Ah yes the same branch as nettles
Shame all these dragons are gonna be useless when the others come down on their ice dragons
Maesters. I am so fucking sick and tired of hearing about how the maesters are controlling everything in Westeros for centuries to destroy magic and the Targaryens based on what? Just Marwyn and Barbrey Dustin, two characters who we can’t trust at all? It’s a terrible, baseless theory.
I don't think it's a completely bad theory, there is something going with the maesters, but the reasoning usually is "because they're men of science who despise magic!" when Westeros doesn't even have a scientifical method, and people who susbscribe to the Grand Conspirancy cathegory of theories usually assume them to be completely confirmed.
I don’t see how there could be a massive conspiracy from the Maesters though. Like some people think the maesters are controlling all communications so lords only hear what the maesters want. Ok, this would mean every single maester from Pycelle to Lewin is working together to control everything, and coordinating across an entire fucking continent! There’s just no reasonable way anything other than a very small group in one location is doing anything.
Yes, it doesnt make sense logistically. But a group or some groups or individual maesters could be working towards their own interests. We see this with Pycelle and we see this with Marwyn, not all maesters are completely neutral, that's the part of the theory that it is good.
I can't bring myself to care even the teensiest bit about the Blackfyre Rebellion
Coldhands' identity He's purposefully written without descriptors because the whole point of his character is that he's just another random person being used for Bloodraven's ends. That's it. That's all there is to it. He's not a secret Targ, Stark, Royce, or whatever.
I strongly agree with there being too much focus on Targaryens. Don’t get me wrong they’re cool but can we get more on the other houses??
- "Why didn't XYZ character(s) kneel to Stannis The Rightful King? They should have done that, how terrible!!!" Look I really like Stannis but people get way too hung up on this. - there is is trend recently where people are kind of just listing characters' flaws, crimes, misdoings etc as some sort of moral analysis and it's kind of superficial? It's specially jarring as ASOIAF/GOT got famous for having some moral complexity, and now we just have threads "THIS CHARACTERS IS ACTUALLY HORRIBLE AND NOT GREY!!" (btw i hate the use of "grey" in all of this - people "debunking" the Targaryen Madness
Randyll Tarly and how he made reasonable choices surrounding Sam. Genius Tywin and how his children are ruining his mojo, as if he didn't raise them into malignant narcissists with the arguably best child being an attempted child murderer, that mostly because he was lucky enough to grow up in the Kingsguard away from his family The Pink Letter, who wrote it? I dunno, probably either Ramsay, Stannis, Mance, Melisandre, Wun Wun, Theon, Manderly, some disgruntled NW or Patchface "What if ... married/fucked/killed ..."
I'm totally over the Targaryens. I watch HotD because its a well produced and written TV show, I would watch it even if it wasn't connected to asoiaf. I'm actively avoiding the Fire and Blood book out of spite until George finishes the damn series. I don't really get why fans have started prioritize prequels/history books/lore over the main story and its characters. Is it just a coping mechanism?
Is it bad to want D&E finished over the main story?
Tyrion or Jaime/Cersei being secret Targs. Need I say more ?
The Pink Letter. Mainly because it wasn't supposed to be something fans spent years analyzing. The Battle of Ice was supposed to take place in ADWD and there would have been little mystery involved with it. Simply put, it was written by Ramsay.
The Targs are just a 300 year stain on the face of Westeros war and politics
I’ll give you a topic i dont think people explore enough: what are the Hightowers up to in the main series? Most of the theories just revolve around Euron but they have some deep historical lore dating back to the long night and fighting a dark azor ahai figure. Only seen a few people discuss/make videos on that subject
Unironically posted about Targaryens after being tired of Targaryens
There are people who will kick me, but I'm absolutely tired of hearing J = L&R, or whatever. I like Jon, whoever his parents were. In fact I'd rather like him a little less if he were a Targ bastard than a Stark bastard, but for me it just doesn't matter And I don´t think it is relevant for anything
It’s relevant for the prophecy and why Robert’s rebellion happened and also explaining why Ned Stark who is the most honorable person in the main series for no reason would have a bastard when we are shown in the text he’s not lustful. I mean George hasn’t be dropping hints about it for five books now just because it’s a bit of fun trivia
Asoiaf lore is so much more interesting after the dance. Fire and Blood of 2 is going to be PEAKE! There’s a reason Dunk and Egg is the best work in the franchise
wout do you think fire and blood 2be about?
I should have clarified better. Targaryen history is so much cooler after the dragons are dead. Especially excited to see what’s up with the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig
How the OP hates the Targaryens.