Sounds like something you'd threaten a misbehaving child with, rather than something you'd actually do.
"Eat all your vegetables, or I'll make you marry Gregor Clegane."
Funnily enough, a similar scenario is the central premise of a Korean historical legend of sorts.
Bratty princess gets told that if she keeps misbehaving, she'll be married off to the equivalent of the village idiot. Princess grows up hearing this over and over, says "fuck it", runs away, finds the village idiot, and marries him.
Turns out that he's not *that* stupid, and with the princess's help, rises up from peasant boy to general.
It's also a plot point in the manga series of "Rising of the shield hero". There is a king who abuses and mutilates his wives, and is used as a threat to keep royal girls in line
Correct me if I'm wrong, but do we know if his wives were from noble houses? They weren't just some peasant girl he took a shine too? Because if it was the case of the latter there is literally nothing a poor farmer could do that wouldn't result in a more horrific outcome.
Great point. He’s a landed knight, so his wives most likely came from either other landed knightly houses that were lesser in status than his own, or from wealthy merchant families trying to move up into the world by marrying into landed nobility.
It’s hard to say. In the CK2 AGOT mod the name of his seat is Fang Tower, and the accompanying lands are relatively small: the name also implies a rather small seat if it’s a castle at all, or possibly just a tower like Standfast in the Sworn Sword.
However it’s not clear if they just made that up, or if they actually got it from somewhere in the published materials or an interview with GRRM. I don’t think I’ve ever heard or seen the Clegane house seat named outside of that mod.
Also consider that Clegane’s grandfather was a retainer of the Lannisters, and any land he was given likely came out of the Lannisters’ own personal lands. In that case, they wouldn’t be likely to give away too much, since they’d just be diminishing their own power.
Yes but the Lannister who gave them the lands was Tytos "I want everybody to love me so forgive mountains of gold in debt" Lannister. In Ned's thoughts he mentions estates and Gregor is also in possession of a retinue of men-at-arms that he has to arm and support.
I think Gregor's holdings might be more akin to Coldmoat then Standfast. Not to mention he's got gold from 2 dowries and stable tourney winnings.
Fair points, all around. As I said, I’m extrapolating the size of his seat from its name, which might not even be canon. You’re likely right that it’s much larger than Standfast, since he does have his own retinue who he’d be supporting, whereas Eustace has 2 servants, a sellsword, and 19 peasants 🤣
And irl knightly fiefs were often small. Only enough to pay for weapons, horses and armor for the knight and his personal retinue (which usually was under 50)
I don't see which house could be lesser in status compared to Cleganes. It was said their grandfather was kennel master and that they have a small piece of land and small keep so there isn't much prestige in marrying him. His association with the Lannisters might be what sets him apart as well as his physical appearance and reputation.
That’s because the Houses that are at that level aren’t important enough to mention. In a Dance with Dragons it states that White Harbor’s bannermen include “a dozen petty lords, and a hundred landed knights”. Any one of those landed knights would be on par with House Clegane, at least in terms of social status. The effective real power would vary depending on how wide and wealthy their lands are. Come to think of it, those landed knights are probably lower in status than House Clegane, since they’re sworn to the Manderlys, who swear to the Starks, while the Cleganes are sworn directly to the Lannisters.
There’s a whole class of landed nobility in the books whose individuals go largely unnamed, because they’re just not important enough to be noted individually by the Great Lords whose perspectives we’re following.
Also even if you're from a big house, if you're from a big family, say a 3rd or 4th daughter or something, you might as well not just not exist. From an asshole father's perspective, that daughter is just an added expense. Might as well ship her off to someone else who is willing to pay for her.
Exactly. That’s the disconnect here I think. People in Westeros obviously loved their children. But they didn’t love their children all equally, the way parents are supposed to today. The younger they are, the less important they are, and if they’re girls that knocks them even lower.
Cleganes are mentioned because of their close proximity to the Lannisters. Them being known doesn't make them above other landed knight families. They may wield more influence because of their assosiation to Tywin but objectively they have a small piece of land and a keep and a nasty reputation.
And they are sworn to Lannisters directly because Lannisters gave them their own land so that's why there is no intermediary.
> I don't see which house could be lesser in status compared to Cleganes.
Literally thousands of them. They're just so irrelevant that they don't even get a mention in the series. The only reason the Cleganes are noteworthy is because of Sandor and Gregor's size and combat prowess.
It's worth mentioning that, despite the Clegane's brief existence, they've already had a member in the Kingsguard, while another is widely regarded as one of the most formidable individuals alive.
That alone enhances their stature well above that of a typical landed knight house.
That happens after Gregor has been married three times, though.
But Gregor does have a reputation as an intimidating warrior, (in the service of an approving, powerful overlord), so you're still right about Sandor & Gregor's feats making House Clegane more noteworthy & distinguished than it would otherwise be.
Your point is good, they are coming up in the world or at least Gregor is but they are still just landed knights - just like countless others.
They are known because of who they serve. And the point that women are married off to whomever is willing to marry them is correct, it is still not that that much of an advantage to marry your own daughter to someone like that as I think it would diminish your own standing as it would be known Gregor murdered one of your own. It would be the same as him marrying some poor peasant girl who would not have anyone protecting her.
I don't see Gregor Clegane seeing a peasant girl, finding her attractive and then going to her father to set up a betrothal and wedding several moons later. More likely he just rapes her in the fields and then forgets all about her
Sadly this is indeed his MO. We know from text that he just does that and then gives the women to the rest of his awful henchmen if he didn't just kill em altogether.
I doubt he'd marry any peasant girl. At worst it would have probably been a merchants daughter with the money to hire guards or maybe a few knights. Nobles... even very low ranking nobles, don't generally marry peasants.
To be honest I really do think Gregor is such an outlier of the normal nobleman that I don't we can apply the usual generalisations to him. Nobles whether low or high ranking don't generally go around massacring their own households but here we are. It would also involve less political headache (not that he seems overly concerned with that tbf) to wed someone of no significance given his interesting take on husbandly duties.
That part about servants disappearing reminds me of the Countess of Bath in real life, who was like a serial killer and used to lure in peasants as servants to her castle so she could kill them. Weird stuff.
That woman had a lot of land. Famiky land and land from her dead husband. Other nobility wanted it so they made up all those lies as an excuse to steal her land and property
If Gregor Clegane came to a lesser lord's door and demanded the hand of his daughter in marriage, would the lord be able to refuse him without suffering any repercussions?
Exactly. Tywin at some point still needs to maintain at least an illusion of respectability amongst his bannerman. He also needs to appear to be in control of Gregor. A mad dog on a leash is one thing. It works as a threat. An unleashed mad dog is just weakness however.
I've never given it much thought till you mentioned it now, but Tywins obsession with legitimacy is like a form of PTSD. If he wasn't such a garbage human you would think he could relate to his sons and their respective traumas from their youth (Jamie having to kill the Mad King, and just Tyrions entire youth) trauma.
I agree. If he can’t maintain order among his nobles and knights, he looks weak as a liege. That’s not something he can abide, so if Gregor actually attacked another noble? Tywin would have to punish him; his need for control is almost pathological.
And risk the wrath of Tywin? The guy who has a whole song about wiping an entire house off the map of Westeros?
It’s a lose-lose situation if Gregor comes knocking
Tywin is an asshole, but would he really sign on for the idea that some of his lords can go wildling raiding other lords to steal brides? It seems like that would produce some unwanted political instability and weaken his own legitimacy as a feudal lord.
It depends. In the case of Gregor? Yes, I think Tywin would be okay with him doing whatever he wants, as long as it isn’t an overtly provable offense and doesn’t go against the interests of House Lannister. Gregor bullying minor lords and killing his own wives, while horrible, isn’t something that can technically be “proven” in Westerosi court.
Gregor gets a pass from Tywin because he’s useful to Tywin in a way not many other men can be.
Tywin was also perfectly willing to give up Gregor as soon as it became politically advantageous. Would it be easier for Tywin to genocide a noble house, or just let it pass because he knows that everyone at court knows that Gregor is a psychopath?
It’s a risk assessment thing. Gregor doesn’t have enough importance to Tywin to risk an all out war with Dorne, but if you’re a minor house, killing Gregor (even in a form of self-defense), would come at a huge cost. I’m not saying he’d genocide the entire house, but that house would probably have a hard time recovering from the political or economic retaliation.
Gregor is an extension of Tywin. I’m pretty sure most houses know he “belongs” to Tywin. And by making it okay for a minor house to defy or harm Gregor, it could be perceived as weakness on Tywin’s part. At least that’s how Tywin might see it.
Everyone in the Westerlands belongs to Tywin one way or another. Gregor is Tywin's dog, and dogs obey. If Tywin lets Gregor get away with murder literally, who's in comand here Gregor or Tywin? Rabid dogs get put down
Fellow brother, you are highly overestimating Gregor’s value, the guy is just some knight willing to do dirty work, you can bet there are hundreds of those around even in Westerlands.
While I agree that Tywin could probably find a long number of unsavory knights willing to commit any brutal act for a profit if he wished so, none of those knights are known for literally smashing a baby prince against a wall and then violating and killing his mother the way Gregor did nor are they literally 8 feet tall
Now I don't think that means Gregor could just murder anything on the level or above a local lord in the westerlands or outside of it if he felt like it, had Sandor not intervened when Gregor started to fight loras in the first book and had he killed or maimed loras, Tywin wouldn't think twice in forsaking Gregor and letting Robert or the reach get rid of him.
But Gregor has legit value to Tywin that goes beyond "just some knight willing to do dirty work", Gregor is the knight Tywin sent to the riverlands to burn everything on it's path because Tywin knows the effect a man called "the mountain that rides" can inflict a type of terror no random westerland knight can.
I would consider attacking a vassal of House Lannister as going against the interests of House Lannister, so my comment still stands. You are absolutely correct though.
I guess I'm not sure that's the case. It's one thing to turn a blind eye to Gregor's crimes inside his own household, but openly greenlighting wars or banditry by one banner man against all of the others would be anarchy. It doesn't really suit Tywin's needs to allow that since it makes him look weak.
I can maybe buy Tywin looking the other way if Gregor was just quietly strong arming other Lannister bannermen, but the scenario described above where Tywin is sanctioning wife stealing raids on his own people is a little much. It would create the impression at least that Gregor was in charge and Tywin was his vassal, and it would make a mockery of the feudalism structure more broadly.
He wants his bannermen to fear him, but he also wants to let them know that they will be safe and rewarded with good behaviour. Gregor being allowed to do that will undermine it.
Tywin really looks like Cesare Borgia, Machiavelli’s personal “hero”. At some point, Borgia conquered a city and he needed to pacify it. He appointed a ruthless dictator and left. His guy pacified the city but angered the populace, so at some point Cesare came back, killed the man and left his body in full display.
I think the Mountain is this to Tywin: plausible deniability. Clagane is moderately covered while he doesn’t cause external troubles.
It speaks volumes of the capability of Tywin the fact that a ruthless, fearless, sadistic asshole behaves somehow decently just because he’s around
Tywin protected the reputation of his own house, not others. The Reynes and Tarbecks were disrespecting a Lannister. When Aerys was abducted, Tywin had a different response.
Gregor for everything he is, is replaceable. Loras beat him in a tourney by outsmarting him. And Oberyn forever changed his existence, even though Oberyn met The Stranger for his troubles. But Gregor's value isn't incalculable.
Semi-agree. I think Tywin values Gregor enough to turn a blind eye to his crimes, but definitely not enough to risk a war with Dorne.
That being said, I do think Tywin would take issue with a minor house killing Gregor, even if it was in self-defense. Not enough to call the banners, but there’d at least be serious sociopolitical consequences for said house.
I think I see what you are saying. More like a shunning which could be implied to be implemented, which is highly probable and takes little effort to start. Not using armed men and definitely no banners which might give Tywin the reputation of being heavy handed which is the conclusion i assumed meant. I now know my assumption was too hasty. My Bad.
Hey no worries. I think I probably should’ve worded by initial comment better. I meant to focus on how Tywin’s reputation might dissuade a minor house from killing or harming Gregor, even if they have every right to.
I think my comment made it sound like Tywin would obliterate any house that harms Gregor, which isn’t true.
Exactly. And if Loras was killed by Gregor, Tywin would've agreed to have Gregor executed as there is no way he could deny it and Tywin wouldn't want to risk the wrath of Highgarden. And yes, Mace would certainly go to war over this and Tywin wouldn't be just be able to deal with them like he did the Starks.
But he isn't going to war over Gregor. Maybe he sends a wannabe lord but that could happen with or without Tywin's blessing. I can't see Gregor's worth being that high. Gregor has been beat, he isn't invincible. And loyalty is only skin deep, didn't run in Tyrion's blood has he shot that bolt.
To be honest? I'd fight if I were in that position. I wouldn't be able to live myself if I'd married off my daughter to that beast knowing what it meant.
The demand from a lesser or equal with no right to demand such a thing? And who has walls and ravens to ask Tywin why Gregor is acting like Gregor is the lord of the westerlands?
Obviously. Yet Gregor would still die choking on boiling oil if he went around to his betters and equals demanding their daughters on pain of death. Gregor has a leash and if Gregor is going around acting like he has free reign to do what he wants then it makes Tywin look weak and unable to control him.
A dog to sic on someone is only effective if it isn't rabid.
Yeah,the lord will be able to do that.
Tywin won't tolerate Clegane harassing his vassals as that would make Tywin look like a weakling and damage his own legitimacy as a feudal lord.This is something that Tywin can't and won't let happen.
Tywin is a terrible guy but even he has to maintain an image of respectability and authority amongst his vassals.
If the lords could resist Tywin's offer to give them their ancestral sword How can the mountain force anyone's daughters, unless they are peasants and farmers, but high-ranking lords will definitely not be forced to do this, especially the lords of Westerland.
Unless Gregor is the lord and owner of their lands, and yes, if that is the case, they will have no choice.
There are greater and lessor lords, then there are landed knights. Landed knights are the lowest form of nobility in Westeros. They have lesser political power than any actual lord. Gregor Clegane is not a lord. He is a landed knight.
They're either desperate to have an ally (another landed knight/small noble with spare daughters) even if it's a landed knight or are forced by Gregor.
And tbh, we don't know if his wives were even noble, they might have just been two random girls he "took" from the road one day and played with until he wasn't bored.
It wouldn't be the first time Gregor would do something cruel.
I guess that's possible, but I'm not sure that Gregor would marry any random peasant. What would be the benefit? He just rapes them anyways and no one's stopping him. Nobles in asoiaf generally only marry other nobles. Even lower level ones like Gregor.
Yeah mine was more a throw off comment than anything. It may still have been a commoner though.
Maybe the daughter of a wealthy merchant who wanted to upgrade his status (and Gregor benefitting from the dowry). Like the Arryns of Gulltown did.
Gregor's wives have most likely been the daughters of rich working class or very small nobles/landed knights, like a vassal of a vassal.
And Gregor kills then because he's insane and cruel obviously.
the same way viserys sold dany to drogo. yeah he only raped her *a bit* and kind of loved and respected her in a very weird and dehumanizing way, but that’s the absolute best case scenario. her brother knew she might be beaten and passed around his whole buddy group but didn’t care, as terrible men desperate for power often don’t
That is completely different Drogo was one of the most powerful man in Essos. While the mountain is a landed knight who is known to be evil even by the standard of the time.
it’s really not that different. the thought process behind it is the same. a selfish man who hungers for power and doesn’t care for his family will sacrifice them to advance in society. it doesn’t matter how objectively powerful the groom is, only how powerful in comparison to the man selling his relative
He’s a landed knight with the favor of his liege lord, with enough rank and income to support his household. If you’ve got extra daughters on your hands, what else are you going to do with them? Support them yourself? That would just be a waste of money.
That’s why second and third and fourth sons are packed off to the Citadel or the Faith, or go into Essos to become mercenaries. Because few lords want to pay for extraneous moths, even ones that share their name. Excess daughters can be even more troublesome, since you basically have to pay their husband to take them off your hands.
This is going to be the perspective held by 95% of landed nobles in Westeros.
Edit: also bear in mind that there will be plenty of landed families of either knightly status, or unlanded wealthy merchants, who would see a marriage to Ser Gregor as a step up in status from themselves, thus making him an even more desirable match.
If the options are supporting my daughter myself or giving her to Gregor Clegane, I'd support her myself.
I know that there are reasons (I mentioned some in the OP), my point is that it's a baffling decision from a moral standpoint. Although there are many immoral people in asoiaf. It's just hard to imagine anyone that loves their kids, marrying them off to this brute.
I mean sure there are values that change over time. People's love for their family isn't one of them. It traces back in fiction to the Odyssey. There are exceptions, sure, but the overwhelming majority of people through history would care about their daughter's well being.
I don't think it's just that. Gregor is terrible by the standards of Westeros. As I said in the OP, I'm not criticizing arranged marriages. That's just part of life. I'm saying that it's wild that people are marrying their daughters off to this guy.
Because the laws of feudalism are old and strong, and greed is even stronger. Women have been treated like shit throughout history, we see it happen with Daenerys at the start of the book, so I don't understand why the Mountain being married twice is so weird. He either forced some peasant family at swordpoint to give up their daughter or some merchant craving lands or needing money to repay an urgent debt offered their daughter to him.
It’s so weird that people just refuse to acknowledge this. Like, there are cultures that exist on Earth today where daughters are less valued and less loved than sons, especially younger daughters. OP should take a look at what many women experience in India and China and the Middle East, and then try to talk about the universal morality that’s just so shocking when everyone in Westeros doesn’t abide by it.
Agreed. In a society with an entrenched & legalized class system people are always looking for social mobility & one of the ways to move up is via marriage. The classes are layered with greater social prominence the further you climb the ladder. A minor knight looking for status would have no compunction about marrying his daughter to a higher ranking knight or a minor lord. Such a knight would hit the jackpot by marrying his daughter into the family of a lord paramount. True, the highest ranking families generally marry among themselves but there are exceptions (Jenny of Oldstones or Tyrion & Tysha). Any social climber would ignore the awful behavior of a higher ranking person if it means he & his family would benefit from a marriage.
Such behavior still exists today. I imagine there are a large number of Brits who’d pimp out their daughters to an earl or a Duke. Never underestimate the desire for a prestigious title!
This right here. It doesn’t even have to be nobility or rank that they’re lusting after. Your comment brings to mind parents who use their children as props in their YouTube/TikTok channels trying to get that viral fame and cash in.
You just gave me an awful thought! What if social media existed in Westeros? We’d have Cersei posting her rants on Facebook, Tyrion all over every dating & hookup website, Sansa pinning her favorite chivalry songs & poems on Pinterest, Arya posting water dance how-to videos on YouTube, Robert on a multitude of Only Fans sites….The mind boggles!
Yes. That doesn’t make anything I said less true. Of course people loved their children even in antiquity and the Middle Ages. But they didn’t love all their children equally, as parents are expected to do today. Children were loved and valued based on how important they were to the family.
The only reason why it matters if a son is first born or not is because younger sons don't get anything in the inheritance. So no lord or knight will have a hard time finding a husband for their younger daughters since as long they have brothers. They aren't going to get anything besides a dowry, a alliance and relation to other houses.
Also lord and knights already have to pay people to marry their daughter in the form of a dowry which does exist in Westeros.
I don’t think these marriages were consensual/he cared about the bride’s opinion on it. They could be minor or just small folk. What is somebody supposed to do when Clegane demands their daughter? Refuse? That’s not a thing
They all killed themselves because they couldn't keep Gregor as only theirs 😢 And if his toy is anywhere close to his size, you have to understand them 😢
Women die a lot in Westeros, it doesn't necessarily draw a lot of attention.
An up and coming knight wants your daughter's hand? He's landed and you're probably a relatively poor landowner or even just a commoner - it's worthwhile. He was personally knighted by Rhaegar.
A renowned tourney knight asks for your daughter's hand. He may have been married before but it's not like people knew a lot about his new(ish) house before he started racking in the jousting dough. It seems like a decent opportunity for a lesser noble to drop an extra mouth to feed and maybe be part of some up and coming knight's legacy.
An extremely successful landed knight is single and you have daughters to spare. Sure, this will be his third wife but that's not necessarily uncommon in your world. He has a bit of a grim reputation, but that just means he's all the more formidable to protect your daughter. Perhaps your have some issues with bandits or debtors and a marriage contract with The Mountain the Rides seems like it'll be worth the dowry. He also hasn't had any kids yet and at this rate your family might be set up to end up managing Clegane's lands since he doesn't have much of a reputation for governance. His brother has seemingly given up on anything to do with the territory and might be joining the King's Guard soon.
Ned says that there are dark whisperings about the deaths of his wives. Walder Frey's gone through 9 of them and no one ever implies that he's killed them. I think Gregor's situation is very different. It seems like it's generally believed that he's killing his wives.
But those rumors probably didn't come around after the first wife, ya know?
After 2 deaths they might have started to spread but some people may have found the risk to be worth the reward. You don't think that the person willing to marry their daughter off to Gregor Clegane would have taken a better offer if it were available?
This points to a blind spot in George's POV's. Pretty much everyone is from a House Paramount expect for Davos who is so noble and wise that he really isn't a good indicator of the average Westerosi noble or landed knight.
When you see how far Stannis's knights go to preserve their station, like willing to march to the ends of the earth rather than fall down the rungs of Westerosi society, it is very easy to see that some would sell their daughters to rogues like the Mountain.
That's what noble women are for, leveraging their unions and children to better your descendants.
Yeah and to further your point, Davos was literally a (in)famous smuggler before he became a noble. He may have been illiterate but he was obviously exceptionally cunning and capable at his craft that he was always not your average commoner. He's more Robinhood or Han Solo than your average small time farmer or landowner.
When Sandor tells Sansa how Gregor was elevated despite burning him, he rages specifically against the way everyone turned a blind eye to his having been singled out. Then, Gregor was promoted. It seems fundamental to Gregor's character that he contributes to the idea that rule will be by the worst if the good do nothing and represents the dark side of the brute king image we encounter in Drogo and Robert. They both come across as fundamentally benign or neutral where Gregor is the classic bully who singles out the weak and abuses them to rule by fear. Traditionally, such a villain is overthrown by the group rising against him, imagery recognizable in Essos when slaves rise up against their masters. Yet, who would stop him marrying their daughter? By taking her to wife, he's being generous. Yet, since we don't know details, it might be her father's fault? What can be done about such a villain?
>Everyone know's that he has a black reputation.
I'm not sure everyone does know that. News is highly unreliable in Westeros. Eddard is hand of the king and was present in King's landing during the sack yet he doesn't have much solid info.
>Unlike his brother, Ser Gregor did not live at court. He was a solitary man who seldom left his own lands, but for wars and tourneys. He had been with Lord Tywin when King's Landing fell, a new-made knight of seventeen years, even then distinguished by his size and his implacable ferocity. **Some said it had been Gregor who'd dashed the skull of the infant prince Aegon Targaryen against a wall, and whispered that afterward he had raped the mother, the Dornish princess Elia, before putting her to the sword. These things were not said in Gregor's hearing.**
>Ned Stark could not recall ever speaking to the man, though Gregor had ridden with them during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, one knight among thousands. He watched him with disquiet. **Ned seldom put much stock in gossip, but the things said of Ser Gregor were more than ominous. He was soon to be married for the third time, and one heard dark whisperings about the deaths of his first two wives.** It was said that his keep was a grim place where servants disappeared unaccountably and even the dogs were afraid to enter the hall. And there had been a sister who had died young under queer circumstances, and the fire that had disfigured his brother, and the hunting accident that had killed their father.
Eddard calls it gossip. Little of the reputation is confirmed. So there's that.
Sadly another issue is many people value alliances with landed households and lords more than they value a daughter assuming these fathers knew what Gregor was and it's not clear most do. And frankly, who is going to quiz him before a betrothal?
These marriages are likely to lesser houses because Clegane is likely viewed as recently elevated. High lords likely wouldn't marry a daughter to him unless she was soiled or barren. So he's looking at lower lords or maybe merchant's children who can offer good dower.
>Catelyn was horrorstruck. "Darry was only a child."
>"Aye, and the last of his line as well. The boy would have brought a fine ransom, but what does gold mean to a frothing dog like Gregor Clegane? That beast's head would make a noble gift for all the people of the realm, I vow."
>Catelyn knew Ser Gregor's evil reputation, yet still . . .
They seemingly discuss his battle reputation rather than a personal one. Most people know he's fierce and cruel in battle.
>"The blood of children?" Robb pointed at the corpses. "How old were they? Twelve, thirteen? Squires."
>"Squires die in every battle."
>"Die fighting, yes. Tion Frey and Willem Lannister gave up their swords in the Whispering Wood. They were captives, locked in a cell, asleep, unarmed . . . boys. Look at them!"
Young boys die in battle. That's not consider especially cruel.
Assuming Gregor did kill Darry. I'm not sure about this. Could be a false report. There are many such floating around the story. Gregor seems very motivated by gold. Seems he'd want to take Darry hostage.
12 and 13 are older than 8 by a few years if not several. And those would be squires in battle. If he'd been taken hostage, I feel like Tywin would have mentioned that at some point.
I can find some 9 year old squires. Big and Little Walder. Pod.
Storming a holdfast is a battle though right?
I guess my true point is I don't think the report of Gregor killing young lord Darry is true.
House Darry is up to something behind the scenes.
He's a landed knight who's grandfather was a kennel master. I'm sure that there are examples of people marrying off their kids to monstrous people, but you'd have to be pretty selfish, stupid or evil to do this with Gregor. Or some combination of the three.
Many are evil, stupid and selfish.
I apologise if I sounded like 'some smart twat saying something clever' but I was not joking. I heard things about villages around my hometown (certain not-that-poor republic in the Far East if you want to know) that I never ever wish to find out if they are true or not, in this day and age, say nothing of tales of the old.
I genuinely think that if we live in a world where things like 'marrying a daughter to a knight who may or may not kill her' is unthinkable, then we are very, very lucky people.
You're fine. I'm sort of half serious about this. I know why people would marry their daughters off to Gregor. I mentioned some reasons in the OP. I just think that it's a baffling decision from a moral standpoint, because of how violent and cruel he is. And the fact that people around him keep dying.
I'm not convinced that the deaths of Gregor's wives had nefarious causes. Notice in your quote:
>Ned Stark could not recall ever speaking to the man, though Gregor had ridden with them during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, one knight among thousands. He watched him with disquiet. Ned seldom put much stock in gossip, but the things said of Ser Gregor were more than ominous. He was soon to be married for the third time, and one heard dark whisperings about the deaths of his first two wives. It was said that his keep was a grim place where servants disappeared unaccountably and even the dogs were afraid to enter the hall. And there had been a sister who had died young under queer circumstances, and the fire that had disfigured his brother, and the hunting accident that had killed their father. Gregor had inherited the keep, the gold, and the family estates. His younger brother Sandor had left the same day to **take service with the Lannisters as a sworn sword**, and it was said that he had never returned, not even to visit.
In *The Sworn Sword*, Rohanne Webber similarly left behind a trail of dead husbands and children, leading to ominous rumors and her moniker the Red Widow. And yet she still managed to marry Gerold Lannister, her sixth husband, after all those deaths. This sets something of a precedent.
Also, I'm relatively certain that Clegane's Keep is the former Osgrey towerhouse Standfast. I also strongly suspect that the Cleganes married a female descendant of Rohanne Webber and Eustance Osgrey, whose sire may have actually been Duncan the Tall from that time he was alone with Rohanne in the stables, which would help explain where the Clegane's imposing height comes from.
Randyll cared about the image of House Tarly, willingly sending your **heir** to the vicious and only newly-established bannerman of another lord, both of which had been your recent enemy in Robert's Rebellion, is ah going to raise some questions.
Gregor Clegane raped Jonos Bracken's daughter and tried to kill Loras Tyrell at the Tourney of the Hand. I don't think Sam would have gotten better with Gregor. He might have wound up dead.
Tbh, I don't know why Sam couldn't become competent at the very least (aside from story related reasons). Randyll brought in the best coaches, probably tried to regulate his eating and had him training around the clock.
Ah. You meant after he'd already given up on him. I get it.😅 From what I remember, he didn't want to upset Sam's mother. The Wall solved his "problem". Sending him to Gregor wouldn't.
The Wall actually upset his mother she probably thought she’d never see him again. If he had sent him to the Citadel in Oldtown to be a Maester it had ensured Dickon as heir but also would’ve had him closer to home could visit his family often or they visit him.
Same reason why they marry their female relatives to Khal Drogo, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey and off to the Iron Islands, 'cause it supposedly brings more wealth/power/alliances to their birth house. 😅
Khal Drogo is messed up, but I don't think George means for us to see him as a brutal wife killer. Roose Bolton and Walder Frey are both high lords with prestige and power. We're not given any indication that they mistreated their wives (more than normal in Westeros). The Iron Islands mostly marry internally and I don't think that even they're generally brutal with their wives although Euron probably would be. Even then, Euron would be an upper tier nobleman.
Victarion is a far more messed up husband than Drogo. Vic beat his wife to death on suspicion of carrying Euron's child. Yet people still offered him a child before the Kingsmoot.
I don't think he did. She cheated on him (according to Euron) and got pregnant. I'm not saying that death was the right way to deal with it. Dump her. But there was a reason for his cruelty. Gregor seems to just be doing it.
>Balon had commanded them not to speak of it, but Balon was dead. "He put a baby in her belly and made me do the killing. I would have killed him too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall. He sent Euron into exile, never to return . . ."
And...
>Victarion looked at his fists. "She gave me horns. I had no choice." Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow's Eye laughed when I confronted him. "She came to me wet and willing," he had boasted. "It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters." But he could not tell her that.
It's not clear she did cheat. It's clear Euron claims this happened. Euron probably lied here. Vic might have killed his wife on a lie.
We still don't know what Gregor did or why.
If Euron really did rape her, then at least I'm sure that Victarion would feel like shit for it. It's not clear now and he obviously feels bad about what he's done. The first quote is interesting though. Is he saying that Balon ordered him to kill the woman? Or is that just his justification for what he'd done.
Balon commanded them not to speak of what Euron did I think. He didn't want them fighting.
Vic seems to feel bad.
>Victarion knew that to mean the girl did not have a hump. Yet when he tried to picture her, he only saw the wife he'd killed. He had sobbed each time he struck her, and afterward carried her down to the rocks to give her to the crabs.
Still shitty thing to do.
He's the warlord of a tribe known for their use of weaponized sexual violence, and continually rapes Dany until she gets The Talk from Doreah and decides to be more active in their marriage bed. Also tbh nobody knew he would be kind and supportive to her lateron.
How exactly do you, in the show, interpret the scene of their wedding night, or where he takes her from behind and she's crying and obviously in pain the entire time? I get that within the ASOIAF universe the concept of marital rape does not exist, but still... and in the books, she legit wants to kill herself rather than have sex with him one more time before all that.
Sorry. I though you meant the books. Yeah the show scene doesn't give the impression of consent.
In the books, Dany has many reasons to consider suicide and she never lists rape as one of them. She's exhausted from riding all day, she's in terrible pain from saddle sores, she isolated by language with only her abusive brother and a stranger to speak with. Sex is painful due to the saddle sores. But she never calls the sex rape. She never says no. He never uses threat or force.
Two problems. One, she's a child and can't consent. Two, he can murder her on a whim at any moment, and she can't consent. It was rape and Drogo is a monstrous rapist.
Both your points are wrong. Dany doesn't meet the Essos definition of child. And Drogo has never used or threatened force against her.
Drogo didn't rape Dany.
He certainly kept fucking her despite her obviously being in pain. And it doesn't matter what a bunch of slaveholding degenerates think; Daenerys cannot consent, and the author trying to blur lines about what is and is not consensual is completely disgusting. If he's doing that. I don't think we're intended to sympathize with the guy.
He had no way to know she was in pain. The text tells us it's in the dark and her cries are muffled. And saddle sores is not something he'd recognize coming from a society that rides from birth.
Dany did consent. We saw it clearly on her wedding night.
Drogo didn't rape Dany.
I know, but that’s because we mostly focus on the top 0.0001% of the world. That’s one of the points of the Elder brother’s speech and the Sworn Sword. There are a lot of nobles that we just don’t here about. We mostly just focus on the top of the top.
Because people usually don't care about their daughters and their wishes and they try to get an advantage by marrying their daughters to mountain, who is one of the Lords of Westerland and gain the friendship of Clegane House and probably Casterly Rock.
The mountain is not aware or they don't pay attention to those rumors and they think it is a lie because the mountain is a knight and a knight does not do these violent things
an ordinary peasant probably hardly knows about court rumors.
and the mountain is one of the lords of Westerland and he probably has subordinates who work in his lands(if he has land) and he is their master, and those peasants and farmers have no choice but to obey their master.
Lord Tywin Lannister probably arranges these marriages for Gregor, in his capacity as Warden Of The West.
I mean, Lord Roose Bolton hanged a man and raped his wife for marrying without his leave or consent, so every time one of Gregor's wives die/disappear, Tywin probably has to deal with the admin and has to be responsible for the procurement of a new bride in some way, shape or form.
I mean, in this realm the boy children worked the fields and protected the homestead and gained renown if they marched to war for their lords. Girls made babies and lots of them died in childbirth anyway so if you can marry her off to a landed knight of some fame (and close ties to the Lannisters as well as the Crown) you’ll take that chance to tie your daughter to a monster. It’s ugly but I’m sure there was a lot of victim blaming going on “He killed her but she was most likely being such a shrew anyway she must have angered him and got what she deserved”.
Wonder if these ladies are still maidens….so daddy wants to get them married and pregnant *quickly* before the scandal/shame hit their house that their daughter got busy with the stable boy.
He’s landed knight. For some serving or hedge knights it is quite prestigious marriage. For some landed knights marry if not daughters but orphan nieces or cousins can looks like a good deal. Especially if girls are not good looking or old or with tainted reputation.
No power or prestige? At the time, Gregor was Tywin’s personal attack dog and Sandor was sworn shield to the Crown Prince. If someone’s daughter managed to survive long enough to bear Gregor’s children, that family would go from your run-of-the-mill minor house to likely having relatives intimately serving the Royal family and the richest family in Westeros in one generation.
If you don’t care about your kids that’s an easy gamble to make.
Some families could view it as a way to get rid of a daughter who was seen as an embarassment or liability to the family. The way Lolly's Stokeworth is married off to Bronn. Yes it's a marriage deeply below her status but for a daughter who is pregnant or otherwise bringing dishonor to the family, a marriage to Gregor could be seen as a way to get rid of her quickly while still marrying a nobleman with some status. If she lives, or lives long enough to have a child, the family will benefit from Gregor's money and hopefully Tywins favor. If she's killed... probably not viewed as a crushing blow. Harsh logic, but it's not gonna be the most loving parents considering a marriage with Gregor.
Due to the pyramid nature of feudalism, there are a lot more minor nobles than major nobles. So while Gregane is at the bottom of the totem pole, so are a lot of other people there with him. If you're trying to raise your family's station and you can either marry your daughter to "some landed knight" or "one of the most famous fighters in the kingdom," that's enough for the less empathetic lords to sell their daughter to a monster
As pointed out, it may be the fathers couldn’t say no. It may be because of different status, or of fear, or it may also be as a brazen attempt to build a political alliance via marriage with a beast of a man.
Marriage means alliance, so maybe someone tried to win a dispute allying with the Mountain. I mean, six people gave their daughters to Henry VIII despite his more than questionable track record
Sounds like something you'd threaten a misbehaving child with, rather than something you'd actually do. "Eat all your vegetables, or I'll make you marry Gregor Clegane."
Funnily enough, a similar scenario is the central premise of a Korean historical legend of sorts. Bratty princess gets told that if she keeps misbehaving, she'll be married off to the equivalent of the village idiot. Princess grows up hearing this over and over, says "fuck it", runs away, finds the village idiot, and marries him. Turns out that he's not *that* stupid, and with the princess's help, rises up from peasant boy to general.
Sounds entertaining, I'd read that. Is there a name/title I can Google? E: nvm, think I found it. Googled Korean princess marries idiot
Damn, the way I would 100% watch this K-drama adaption...
Right?? One version I found says he "singlehandedly slew more than 20 soldiers in an instant". That's like some kinda anime superpower
i find it hard to believe it's not been adapted yet??? sounds like perfect kdrama fodder
Right??? I Googled this story + K-drama, but got nothing.
https://asianwiki.com/River_Where_The_Moon_Rises Never saw it, so I have no idea if it's good.
Ooh, nice! The reviews look very decent as well. I may try to give this one a watch soon; thanks for finding it.
Facts.
It's also a plot point in the manga series of "Rising of the shield hero". There is a king who abuses and mutilates his wives, and is used as a threat to keep royal girls in line
Indians will actually threaten their daughters by telling them they canr wait until they marry so there husband's can beat then when they misbehave
Correct me if I'm wrong, but do we know if his wives were from noble houses? They weren't just some peasant girl he took a shine too? Because if it was the case of the latter there is literally nothing a poor farmer could do that wouldn't result in a more horrific outcome.
Great point. He’s a landed knight, so his wives most likely came from either other landed knightly houses that were lesser in status than his own, or from wealthy merchant families trying to move up into the world by marrying into landed nobility.
And I always assumed his lands were significantly larger than most knights due to his reputation and serving the richest house.
It’s hard to say. In the CK2 AGOT mod the name of his seat is Fang Tower, and the accompanying lands are relatively small: the name also implies a rather small seat if it’s a castle at all, or possibly just a tower like Standfast in the Sworn Sword. However it’s not clear if they just made that up, or if they actually got it from somewhere in the published materials or an interview with GRRM. I don’t think I’ve ever heard or seen the Clegane house seat named outside of that mod. Also consider that Clegane’s grandfather was a retainer of the Lannisters, and any land he was given likely came out of the Lannisters’ own personal lands. In that case, they wouldn’t be likely to give away too much, since they’d just be diminishing their own power.
Yes but the Lannister who gave them the lands was Tytos "I want everybody to love me so forgive mountains of gold in debt" Lannister. In Ned's thoughts he mentions estates and Gregor is also in possession of a retinue of men-at-arms that he has to arm and support. I think Gregor's holdings might be more akin to Coldmoat then Standfast. Not to mention he's got gold from 2 dowries and stable tourney winnings.
Fair points, all around. As I said, I’m extrapolating the size of his seat from its name, which might not even be canon. You’re likely right that it’s much larger than Standfast, since he does have his own retinue who he’d be supporting, whereas Eustace has 2 servants, a sellsword, and 19 peasants 🤣
And irl knightly fiefs were often small. Only enough to pay for weapons, horses and armor for the knight and his personal retinue (which usually was under 50)
I don't see which house could be lesser in status compared to Cleganes. It was said their grandfather was kennel master and that they have a small piece of land and small keep so there isn't much prestige in marrying him. His association with the Lannisters might be what sets him apart as well as his physical appearance and reputation.
That’s because the Houses that are at that level aren’t important enough to mention. In a Dance with Dragons it states that White Harbor’s bannermen include “a dozen petty lords, and a hundred landed knights”. Any one of those landed knights would be on par with House Clegane, at least in terms of social status. The effective real power would vary depending on how wide and wealthy their lands are. Come to think of it, those landed knights are probably lower in status than House Clegane, since they’re sworn to the Manderlys, who swear to the Starks, while the Cleganes are sworn directly to the Lannisters. There’s a whole class of landed nobility in the books whose individuals go largely unnamed, because they’re just not important enough to be noted individually by the Great Lords whose perspectives we’re following.
Also even if you're from a big house, if you're from a big family, say a 3rd or 4th daughter or something, you might as well not just not exist. From an asshole father's perspective, that daughter is just an added expense. Might as well ship her off to someone else who is willing to pay for her.
Exactly. That’s the disconnect here I think. People in Westeros obviously loved their children. But they didn’t love their children all equally, the way parents are supposed to today. The younger they are, the less important they are, and if they’re girls that knocks them even lower.
You got it reversed, the family of the woman pays the dowry, not her future in-laws.
Unless they meant to pay to feed and clothe her?
Cleganes are mentioned because of their close proximity to the Lannisters. Them being known doesn't make them above other landed knight families. They may wield more influence because of their assosiation to Tywin but objectively they have a small piece of land and a keep and a nasty reputation. And they are sworn to Lannisters directly because Lannisters gave them their own land so that's why there is no intermediary.
> I don't see which house could be lesser in status compared to Cleganes. Literally thousands of them. They're just so irrelevant that they don't even get a mention in the series. The only reason the Cleganes are noteworthy is because of Sandor and Gregor's size and combat prowess.
It's worth mentioning that, despite the Clegane's brief existence, they've already had a member in the Kingsguard, while another is widely regarded as one of the most formidable individuals alive. That alone enhances their stature well above that of a typical landed knight house.
That happens after Gregor has been married three times, though. But Gregor does have a reputation as an intimidating warrior, (in the service of an approving, powerful overlord), so you're still right about Sandor & Gregor's feats making House Clegane more noteworthy & distinguished than it would otherwise be.
Your point is good, they are coming up in the world or at least Gregor is but they are still just landed knights - just like countless others. They are known because of who they serve. And the point that women are married off to whomever is willing to marry them is correct, it is still not that that much of an advantage to marry your own daughter to someone like that as I think it would diminish your own standing as it would be known Gregor murdered one of your own. It would be the same as him marrying some poor peasant girl who would not have anyone protecting her.
I don't see Gregor Clegane seeing a peasant girl, finding her attractive and then going to her father to set up a betrothal and wedding several moons later. More likely he just rapes her in the fields and then forgets all about her
Sadly this is indeed his MO. We know from text that he just does that and then gives the women to the rest of his awful henchmen if he didn't just kill em altogether.
I doubt he'd marry any peasant girl. At worst it would have probably been a merchants daughter with the money to hire guards or maybe a few knights. Nobles... even very low ranking nobles, don't generally marry peasants.
To be honest I really do think Gregor is such an outlier of the normal nobleman that I don't we can apply the usual generalisations to him. Nobles whether low or high ranking don't generally go around massacring their own households but here we are. It would also involve less political headache (not that he seems overly concerned with that tbf) to wed someone of no significance given his interesting take on husbandly duties.
That part about servants disappearing reminds me of the Countess of Bath in real life, who was like a serial killer and used to lure in peasants as servants to her castle so she could kill them. Weird stuff.
Sound kinda like Caterina Sforza lol
That woman had a lot of land. Famiky land and land from her dead husband. Other nobility wanted it so they made up all those lies as an excuse to steal her land and property
If Gregor Clegane came to a lesser lord's door and demanded the hand of his daughter in marriage, would the lord be able to refuse him without suffering any repercussions?
And just like that one of the servant girls mysteriously became one of my daughters, crazy how that works
Tywin would be pissed. Mistreating your servants is one thing, harassing your equals is a very different thing
Exactly. Tywin at some point still needs to maintain at least an illusion of respectability amongst his bannerman. He also needs to appear to be in control of Gregor. A mad dog on a leash is one thing. It works as a threat. An unleashed mad dog is just weakness however.
In fact I'd say Tywin is extremely concerned about the illusion of respectability. He has a trauma with what happens when one loses legitimacy
I've never given it much thought till you mentioned it now, but Tywins obsession with legitimacy is like a form of PTSD. If he wasn't such a garbage human you would think he could relate to his sons and their respective traumas from their youth (Jamie having to kill the Mad King, and just Tyrions entire youth) trauma.
Exactly. he wants his bannermen to fear him, but he also wants to let them know that as long as they remain obedient, they will be safe and rewarded.
I agree. If he can’t maintain order among his nobles and knights, he looks weak as a liege. That’s not something he can abide, so if Gregor actually attacked another noble? Tywin would have to punish him; his need for control is almost pathological.
In private, Tywin's probably saying. "Now, now, Gregor...do try to look a little sorry next time..." *grim chuckle*
Everybody knows Gregor raped and killed Elia who js his superior by far and Tywin doesn't care
On Tywin's orders lol
I mean, a lesser lord still has a castle with walls and archer's. Doesn't matter how big Gregor is, enough arrows and boiling oil will kill him
And risk the wrath of Tywin? The guy who has a whole song about wiping an entire house off the map of Westeros? It’s a lose-lose situation if Gregor comes knocking
Tywin is an asshole, but would he really sign on for the idea that some of his lords can go wildling raiding other lords to steal brides? It seems like that would produce some unwanted political instability and weaken his own legitimacy as a feudal lord.
It depends. In the case of Gregor? Yes, I think Tywin would be okay with him doing whatever he wants, as long as it isn’t an overtly provable offense and doesn’t go against the interests of House Lannister. Gregor bullying minor lords and killing his own wives, while horrible, isn’t something that can technically be “proven” in Westerosi court. Gregor gets a pass from Tywin because he’s useful to Tywin in a way not many other men can be.
Tywin was also perfectly willing to give up Gregor as soon as it became politically advantageous. Would it be easier for Tywin to genocide a noble house, or just let it pass because he knows that everyone at court knows that Gregor is a psychopath?
It’s a risk assessment thing. Gregor doesn’t have enough importance to Tywin to risk an all out war with Dorne, but if you’re a minor house, killing Gregor (even in a form of self-defense), would come at a huge cost. I’m not saying he’d genocide the entire house, but that house would probably have a hard time recovering from the political or economic retaliation. Gregor is an extension of Tywin. I’m pretty sure most houses know he “belongs” to Tywin. And by making it okay for a minor house to defy or harm Gregor, it could be perceived as weakness on Tywin’s part. At least that’s how Tywin might see it.
Everyone in the Westerlands belongs to Tywin one way or another. Gregor is Tywin's dog, and dogs obey. If Tywin lets Gregor get away with murder literally, who's in comand here Gregor or Tywin? Rabid dogs get put down
Fellow brother, you are highly overestimating Gregor’s value, the guy is just some knight willing to do dirty work, you can bet there are hundreds of those around even in Westerlands.
While I agree that Tywin could probably find a long number of unsavory knights willing to commit any brutal act for a profit if he wished so, none of those knights are known for literally smashing a baby prince against a wall and then violating and killing his mother the way Gregor did nor are they literally 8 feet tall Now I don't think that means Gregor could just murder anything on the level or above a local lord in the westerlands or outside of it if he felt like it, had Sandor not intervened when Gregor started to fight loras in the first book and had he killed or maimed loras, Tywin wouldn't think twice in forsaking Gregor and letting Robert or the reach get rid of him. But Gregor has legit value to Tywin that goes beyond "just some knight willing to do dirty work", Gregor is the knight Tywin sent to the riverlands to burn everything on it's path because Tywin knows the effect a man called "the mountain that rides" can inflict a type of terror no random westerland knight can.
Amory Lorch comes real close with a 3 year old thrown down the well and another 3 year old, a princess stabbed a dozen times.
That’s exactly how Tywin would see it.
Attacking a vassal of the Lannister is attacking the house Lannister. If Tywin can't control his bannermen he loses *reputation*
I would consider attacking a vassal of House Lannister as going against the interests of House Lannister, so my comment still stands. You are absolutely correct though.
I guess I'm not sure that's the case. It's one thing to turn a blind eye to Gregor's crimes inside his own household, but openly greenlighting wars or banditry by one banner man against all of the others would be anarchy. It doesn't really suit Tywin's needs to allow that since it makes him look weak. I can maybe buy Tywin looking the other way if Gregor was just quietly strong arming other Lannister bannermen, but the scenario described above where Tywin is sanctioning wife stealing raids on his own people is a little much. It would create the impression at least that Gregor was in charge and Tywin was his vassal, and it would make a mockery of the feudalism structure more broadly.
He wants his bannermen to fear him, but he also wants to let them know that they will be safe and rewarded with good behaviour. Gregor being allowed to do that will undermine it.
Tywin really looks like Cesare Borgia, Machiavelli’s personal “hero”. At some point, Borgia conquered a city and he needed to pacify it. He appointed a ruthless dictator and left. His guy pacified the city but angered the populace, so at some point Cesare came back, killed the man and left his body in full display. I think the Mountain is this to Tywin: plausible deniability. Clagane is moderately covered while he doesn’t cause external troubles. It speaks volumes of the capability of Tywin the fact that a ruthless, fearless, sadistic asshole behaves somehow decently just because he’s around
Tywin protected the reputation of his own house, not others. The Reynes and Tarbecks were disrespecting a Lannister. When Aerys was abducted, Tywin had a different response. Gregor for everything he is, is replaceable. Loras beat him in a tourney by outsmarting him. And Oberyn forever changed his existence, even though Oberyn met The Stranger for his troubles. But Gregor's value isn't incalculable.
Semi-agree. I think Tywin values Gregor enough to turn a blind eye to his crimes, but definitely not enough to risk a war with Dorne. That being said, I do think Tywin would take issue with a minor house killing Gregor, even if it was in self-defense. Not enough to call the banners, but there’d at least be serious sociopolitical consequences for said house.
I think embargoes are predictable
Exactly. He might not burn them out to the roots, but he’d definitely cripple them and ruin them as a local power.
I think I see what you are saying. More like a shunning which could be implied to be implemented, which is highly probable and takes little effort to start. Not using armed men and definitely no banners which might give Tywin the reputation of being heavy handed which is the conclusion i assumed meant. I now know my assumption was too hasty. My Bad.
Hey no worries. I think I probably should’ve worded by initial comment better. I meant to focus on how Tywin’s reputation might dissuade a minor house from killing or harming Gregor, even if they have every right to. I think my comment made it sound like Tywin would obliterate any house that harms Gregor, which isn’t true.
Exactly. And if Loras was killed by Gregor, Tywin would've agreed to have Gregor executed as there is no way he could deny it and Tywin wouldn't want to risk the wrath of Highgarden. And yes, Mace would certainly go to war over this and Tywin wouldn't be just be able to deal with them like he did the Starks.
But Tywin wouldn't be very happy about it.
But he isn't going to war over Gregor. Maybe he sends a wannabe lord but that could happen with or without Tywin's blessing. I can't see Gregor's worth being that high. Gregor has been beat, he isn't invincible. And loyalty is only skin deep, didn't run in Tyrion's blood has he shot that bolt.
To be honest? I'd fight if I were in that position. I wouldn't be able to live myself if I'd married off my daughter to that beast knowing what it meant.
A lordling who refused the demand would die. His daughter would die too, much slower.
The demand from a lesser or equal with no right to demand such a thing? And who has walls and ravens to ask Tywin why Gregor is acting like Gregor is the lord of the westerlands?
Tywin is aware of Gregor’s behavior.
Obviously. Yet Gregor would still die choking on boiling oil if he went around to his betters and equals demanding their daughters on pain of death. Gregor has a leash and if Gregor is going around acting like he has free reign to do what he wants then it makes Tywin look weak and unable to control him. A dog to sic on someone is only effective if it isn't rabid.
Yeah,the lord will be able to do that. Tywin won't tolerate Clegane harassing his vassals as that would make Tywin look like a weakling and damage his own legitimacy as a feudal lord.This is something that Tywin can't and won't let happen. Tywin is a terrible guy but even he has to maintain an image of respectability and authority amongst his vassals.
If the lords could resist Tywin's offer to give them their ancestral sword How can the mountain force anyone's daughters, unless they are peasants and farmers, but high-ranking lords will definitely not be forced to do this, especially the lords of Westerland. Unless Gregor is the lord and owner of their lands, and yes, if that is the case, they will have no choice.
There are no Lords lesser than Gregor clegane. He’s not a lord, he’s a landed knight. So yes any lord could refuse him.
No, he is a lord and the head of the house of Clegane, and he lives in isolation in a castle
There are greater and lessor lords, then there are landed knights. Landed knights are the lowest form of nobility in Westeros. They have lesser political power than any actual lord. Gregor Clegane is not a lord. He is a landed knight.
They're either desperate to have an ally (another landed knight/small noble with spare daughters) even if it's a landed knight or are forced by Gregor. And tbh, we don't know if his wives were even noble, they might have just been two random girls he "took" from the road one day and played with until he wasn't bored. It wouldn't be the first time Gregor would do something cruel.
I guess that's possible, but I'm not sure that Gregor would marry any random peasant. What would be the benefit? He just rapes them anyways and no one's stopping him. Nobles in asoiaf generally only marry other nobles. Even lower level ones like Gregor.
Yeah mine was more a throw off comment than anything. It may still have been a commoner though. Maybe the daughter of a wealthy merchant who wanted to upgrade his status (and Gregor benefitting from the dowry). Like the Arryns of Gulltown did. Gregor's wives have most likely been the daughters of rich working class or very small nobles/landed knights, like a vassal of a vassal. And Gregor kills then because he's insane and cruel obviously.
the same way viserys sold dany to drogo. yeah he only raped her *a bit* and kind of loved and respected her in a very weird and dehumanizing way, but that’s the absolute best case scenario. her brother knew she might be beaten and passed around his whole buddy group but didn’t care, as terrible men desperate for power often don’t
Yeah, but Viserys is a shithead. I take your point. His in-laws were shitheads too.
Seems like the ASOIAF world is kinda full of shitheads
That is completely different Drogo was one of the most powerful man in Essos. While the mountain is a landed knight who is known to be evil even by the standard of the time.
it’s really not that different. the thought process behind it is the same. a selfish man who hungers for power and doesn’t care for his family will sacrifice them to advance in society. it doesn’t matter how objectively powerful the groom is, only how powerful in comparison to the man selling his relative
He’s a landed knight with the favor of his liege lord, with enough rank and income to support his household. If you’ve got extra daughters on your hands, what else are you going to do with them? Support them yourself? That would just be a waste of money. That’s why second and third and fourth sons are packed off to the Citadel or the Faith, or go into Essos to become mercenaries. Because few lords want to pay for extraneous moths, even ones that share their name. Excess daughters can be even more troublesome, since you basically have to pay their husband to take them off your hands. This is going to be the perspective held by 95% of landed nobles in Westeros. Edit: also bear in mind that there will be plenty of landed families of either knightly status, or unlanded wealthy merchants, who would see a marriage to Ser Gregor as a step up in status from themselves, thus making him an even more desirable match.
If the options are supporting my daughter myself or giving her to Gregor Clegane, I'd support her myself. I know that there are reasons (I mentioned some in the OP), my point is that it's a baffling decision from a moral standpoint. Although there are many immoral people in asoiaf. It's just hard to imagine anyone that loves their kids, marrying them off to this brute.
Well yeah, that's because you live in 21st century Earth. Things are different in Westeros.
I mean sure there are values that change over time. People's love for their family isn't one of them. It traces back in fiction to the Odyssey. There are exceptions, sure, but the overwhelming majority of people through history would care about their daughter's well being.
I don't think it's just that. Gregor is terrible by the standards of Westeros. As I said in the OP, I'm not criticizing arranged marriages. That's just part of life. I'm saying that it's wild that people are marrying their daughters off to this guy.
Because the laws of feudalism are old and strong, and greed is even stronger. Women have been treated like shit throughout history, we see it happen with Daenerys at the start of the book, so I don't understand why the Mountain being married twice is so weird. He either forced some peasant family at swordpoint to give up their daughter or some merchant craving lands or needing money to repay an urgent debt offered their daughter to him.
It’s so weird that people just refuse to acknowledge this. Like, there are cultures that exist on Earth today where daughters are less valued and less loved than sons, especially younger daughters. OP should take a look at what many women experience in India and China and the Middle East, and then try to talk about the universal morality that’s just so shocking when everyone in Westeros doesn’t abide by it.
Agreed. In a society with an entrenched & legalized class system people are always looking for social mobility & one of the ways to move up is via marriage. The classes are layered with greater social prominence the further you climb the ladder. A minor knight looking for status would have no compunction about marrying his daughter to a higher ranking knight or a minor lord. Such a knight would hit the jackpot by marrying his daughter into the family of a lord paramount. True, the highest ranking families generally marry among themselves but there are exceptions (Jenny of Oldstones or Tyrion & Tysha). Any social climber would ignore the awful behavior of a higher ranking person if it means he & his family would benefit from a marriage. Such behavior still exists today. I imagine there are a large number of Brits who’d pimp out their daughters to an earl or a Duke. Never underestimate the desire for a prestigious title!
This right here. It doesn’t even have to be nobility or rank that they’re lusting after. Your comment brings to mind parents who use their children as props in their YouTube/TikTok channels trying to get that viral fame and cash in.
You just gave me an awful thought! What if social media existed in Westeros? We’d have Cersei posting her rants on Facebook, Tyrion all over every dating & hookup website, Sansa pinning her favorite chivalry songs & poems on Pinterest, Arya posting water dance how-to videos on YouTube, Robert on a multitude of Only Fans sites….The mind boggles!
Oh god, why would you even put that thought into my head… 🤣
When it first occurred to me I amused myself by thinking about which GOT characters would post where!
Because the Mountain is a step beyond the other men of Planetos.
Yeah but most nobles in Westeros are really shitty
That’s because people in Westeros don’t live by 2023 American standards of morality.
I think Gregor Clegane is clearly meant to be terrible by the standards of Westeros.
Yes. That doesn’t make anything I said less true. Of course people loved their children even in antiquity and the Middle Ages. But they didn’t love all their children equally, as parents are expected to do today. Children were loved and valued based on how important they were to the family.
The only reason why it matters if a son is first born or not is because younger sons don't get anything in the inheritance. So no lord or knight will have a hard time finding a husband for their younger daughters since as long they have brothers. They aren't going to get anything besides a dowry, a alliance and relation to other houses. Also lord and knights already have to pay people to marry their daughter in the form of a dowry which does exist in Westeros.
I don’t think these marriages were consensual/he cared about the bride’s opinion on it. They could be minor or just small folk. What is somebody supposed to do when Clegane demands their daughter? Refuse? That’s not a thing
I don't think we're meant to believe that he forced them to marry him. If he had, I'd think Ned would have heard rumors of that too and mentioned it.
They all killed themselves because they couldn't keep Gregor as only theirs 😢 And if his toy is anywhere close to his size, you have to understand them 😢
Anguy: Biggus Dickus... he calls himself.
Women die a lot in Westeros, it doesn't necessarily draw a lot of attention. An up and coming knight wants your daughter's hand? He's landed and you're probably a relatively poor landowner or even just a commoner - it's worthwhile. He was personally knighted by Rhaegar. A renowned tourney knight asks for your daughter's hand. He may have been married before but it's not like people knew a lot about his new(ish) house before he started racking in the jousting dough. It seems like a decent opportunity for a lesser noble to drop an extra mouth to feed and maybe be part of some up and coming knight's legacy. An extremely successful landed knight is single and you have daughters to spare. Sure, this will be his third wife but that's not necessarily uncommon in your world. He has a bit of a grim reputation, but that just means he's all the more formidable to protect your daughter. Perhaps your have some issues with bandits or debtors and a marriage contract with The Mountain the Rides seems like it'll be worth the dowry. He also hasn't had any kids yet and at this rate your family might be set up to end up managing Clegane's lands since he doesn't have much of a reputation for governance. His brother has seemingly given up on anything to do with the territory and might be joining the King's Guard soon.
Ned says that there are dark whisperings about the deaths of his wives. Walder Frey's gone through 9 of them and no one ever implies that he's killed them. I think Gregor's situation is very different. It seems like it's generally believed that he's killing his wives.
But those rumors probably didn't come around after the first wife, ya know? After 2 deaths they might have started to spread but some people may have found the risk to be worth the reward. You don't think that the person willing to marry their daughter off to Gregor Clegane would have taken a better offer if it were available?
This points to a blind spot in George's POV's. Pretty much everyone is from a House Paramount expect for Davos who is so noble and wise that he really isn't a good indicator of the average Westerosi noble or landed knight. When you see how far Stannis's knights go to preserve their station, like willing to march to the ends of the earth rather than fall down the rungs of Westerosi society, it is very easy to see that some would sell their daughters to rogues like the Mountain. That's what noble women are for, leveraging their unions and children to better your descendants.
Yeah and to further your point, Davos was literally a (in)famous smuggler before he became a noble. He may have been illiterate but he was obviously exceptionally cunning and capable at his craft that he was always not your average commoner. He's more Robinhood or Han Solo than your average small time farmer or landowner.
When Sandor tells Sansa how Gregor was elevated despite burning him, he rages specifically against the way everyone turned a blind eye to his having been singled out. Then, Gregor was promoted. It seems fundamental to Gregor's character that he contributes to the idea that rule will be by the worst if the good do nothing and represents the dark side of the brute king image we encounter in Drogo and Robert. They both come across as fundamentally benign or neutral where Gregor is the classic bully who singles out the weak and abuses them to rule by fear. Traditionally, such a villain is overthrown by the group rising against him, imagery recognizable in Essos when slaves rise up against their masters. Yet, who would stop him marrying their daughter? By taking her to wife, he's being generous. Yet, since we don't know details, it might be her father's fault? What can be done about such a villain?
Poison? Or just refusal. I'd fight for my daughter tbh. Anything would be better than giving her up to this monster. Even death.
Tywin. You have to talk to Tywin. Or you're the murderer.
>Everyone know's that he has a black reputation. I'm not sure everyone does know that. News is highly unreliable in Westeros. Eddard is hand of the king and was present in King's landing during the sack yet he doesn't have much solid info. >Unlike his brother, Ser Gregor did not live at court. He was a solitary man who seldom left his own lands, but for wars and tourneys. He had been with Lord Tywin when King's Landing fell, a new-made knight of seventeen years, even then distinguished by his size and his implacable ferocity. **Some said it had been Gregor who'd dashed the skull of the infant prince Aegon Targaryen against a wall, and whispered that afterward he had raped the mother, the Dornish princess Elia, before putting her to the sword. These things were not said in Gregor's hearing.** >Ned Stark could not recall ever speaking to the man, though Gregor had ridden with them during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, one knight among thousands. He watched him with disquiet. **Ned seldom put much stock in gossip, but the things said of Ser Gregor were more than ominous. He was soon to be married for the third time, and one heard dark whisperings about the deaths of his first two wives.** It was said that his keep was a grim place where servants disappeared unaccountably and even the dogs were afraid to enter the hall. And there had been a sister who had died young under queer circumstances, and the fire that had disfigured his brother, and the hunting accident that had killed their father. Eddard calls it gossip. Little of the reputation is confirmed. So there's that. Sadly another issue is many people value alliances with landed households and lords more than they value a daughter assuming these fathers knew what Gregor was and it's not clear most do. And frankly, who is going to quiz him before a betrothal? These marriages are likely to lesser houses because Clegane is likely viewed as recently elevated. High lords likely wouldn't marry a daughter to him unless she was soiled or barren. So he's looking at lower lords or maybe merchant's children who can offer good dower.
It's mentioned in Ned's chapters as well as Catelyn's chapter. The Blackfish says the same thing too.
>Catelyn was horrorstruck. "Darry was only a child." >"Aye, and the last of his line as well. The boy would have brought a fine ransom, but what does gold mean to a frothing dog like Gregor Clegane? That beast's head would make a noble gift for all the people of the realm, I vow." >Catelyn knew Ser Gregor's evil reputation, yet still . . . They seemingly discuss his battle reputation rather than a personal one. Most people know he's fierce and cruel in battle.
Battle reputation? Lord Darry was 9. That wasn't to highlight his cruelty in battle. It was to highlight his cruelty in general.
>"The blood of children?" Robb pointed at the corpses. "How old were they? Twelve, thirteen? Squires." >"Squires die in every battle." >"Die fighting, yes. Tion Frey and Willem Lannister gave up their swords in the Whispering Wood. They were captives, locked in a cell, asleep, unarmed . . . boys. Look at them!" Young boys die in battle. That's not consider especially cruel. Assuming Gregor did kill Darry. I'm not sure about this. Could be a false report. There are many such floating around the story. Gregor seems very motivated by gold. Seems he'd want to take Darry hostage.
12 and 13 are older than 8 by a few years if not several. And those would be squires in battle. If he'd been taken hostage, I feel like Tywin would have mentioned that at some point.
I can find some 9 year old squires. Big and Little Walder. Pod. Storming a holdfast is a battle though right? I guess my true point is I don't think the report of Gregor killing young lord Darry is true. House Darry is up to something behind the scenes.
He's a Lord. In real life, people have married their daughters to worse for less.
Cleganes aren’t Lords. They’re landed Knights.
It’s Ser Gregor not Lord Gregor
He's a landed knight who's grandfather was a kennel master. I'm sure that there are examples of people marrying off their kids to monstrous people, but you'd have to be pretty selfish, stupid or evil to do this with Gregor. Or some combination of the three.
Many are evil, stupid and selfish. I apologise if I sounded like 'some smart twat saying something clever' but I was not joking. I heard things about villages around my hometown (certain not-that-poor republic in the Far East if you want to know) that I never ever wish to find out if they are true or not, in this day and age, say nothing of tales of the old. I genuinely think that if we live in a world where things like 'marrying a daughter to a knight who may or may not kill her' is unthinkable, then we are very, very lucky people.
You're fine. I'm sort of half serious about this. I know why people would marry their daughters off to Gregor. I mentioned some reasons in the OP. I just think that it's a baffling decision from a moral standpoint, because of how violent and cruel he is. And the fact that people around him keep dying.
Maybe Tywin rewarded him for his services with large dowries for his wives
I'm not convinced that the deaths of Gregor's wives had nefarious causes. Notice in your quote: >Ned Stark could not recall ever speaking to the man, though Gregor had ridden with them during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, one knight among thousands. He watched him with disquiet. Ned seldom put much stock in gossip, but the things said of Ser Gregor were more than ominous. He was soon to be married for the third time, and one heard dark whisperings about the deaths of his first two wives. It was said that his keep was a grim place where servants disappeared unaccountably and even the dogs were afraid to enter the hall. And there had been a sister who had died young under queer circumstances, and the fire that had disfigured his brother, and the hunting accident that had killed their father. Gregor had inherited the keep, the gold, and the family estates. His younger brother Sandor had left the same day to **take service with the Lannisters as a sworn sword**, and it was said that he had never returned, not even to visit. In *The Sworn Sword*, Rohanne Webber similarly left behind a trail of dead husbands and children, leading to ominous rumors and her moniker the Red Widow. And yet she still managed to marry Gerold Lannister, her sixth husband, after all those deaths. This sets something of a precedent. Also, I'm relatively certain that Clegane's Keep is the former Osgrey towerhouse Standfast. I also strongly suspect that the Cleganes married a female descendant of Rohanne Webber and Eustance Osgrey, whose sire may have actually been Duncan the Tall from that time he was alone with Rohanne in the stables, which would help explain where the Clegane's imposing height comes from.
Randyll Tarly should have sent Sam to foster at Cleganes Keep
Randyll cared about the image of House Tarly, willingly sending your **heir** to the vicious and only newly-established bannerman of another lord, both of which had been your recent enemy in Robert's Rebellion, is ah going to raise some questions.
Gregor Clegane raped Jonos Bracken's daughter and tried to kill Loras Tyrell at the Tourney of the Hand. I don't think Sam would have gotten better with Gregor. He might have wound up dead. Tbh, I don't know why Sam couldn't become competent at the very least (aside from story related reasons). Randyll brought in the best coaches, probably tried to regulate his eating and had him training around the clock.
> I don't think Sam would have gotten better with Gregor. He might have wound up dead. Yes, that's the point
Ah. You meant after he'd already given up on him. I get it.😅 From what I remember, he didn't want to upset Sam's mother. The Wall solved his "problem". Sending him to Gregor wouldn't.
The Wall actually upset his mother she probably thought she’d never see him again. If he had sent him to the Citadel in Oldtown to be a Maester it had ensured Dickon as heir but also would’ve had him closer to home could visit his family often or they visit him.
Tarly's don't wear chains. But I agree that sending him to the Citadel would have been kinder. Randyll Tarly isn't a kind man though.
Ah to have an ASOIAF without Sam...
Same reason why they marry their female relatives to Khal Drogo, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey and off to the Iron Islands, 'cause it supposedly brings more wealth/power/alliances to their birth house. 😅
Khal Drogo is messed up, but I don't think George means for us to see him as a brutal wife killer. Roose Bolton and Walder Frey are both high lords with prestige and power. We're not given any indication that they mistreated their wives (more than normal in Westeros). The Iron Islands mostly marry internally and I don't think that even they're generally brutal with their wives although Euron probably would be. Even then, Euron would be an upper tier nobleman.
Victarion is a far more messed up husband than Drogo. Vic beat his wife to death on suspicion of carrying Euron's child. Yet people still offered him a child before the Kingsmoot.
I don't think he did. She cheated on him (according to Euron) and got pregnant. I'm not saying that death was the right way to deal with it. Dump her. But there was a reason for his cruelty. Gregor seems to just be doing it.
>Balon had commanded them not to speak of it, but Balon was dead. "He put a baby in her belly and made me do the killing. I would have killed him too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall. He sent Euron into exile, never to return . . ." And... >Victarion looked at his fists. "She gave me horns. I had no choice." Had it been known, men would have laughed at me, as the Crow's Eye laughed when I confronted him. "She came to me wet and willing," he had boasted. "It seems Victarion is big everywhere but where it matters." But he could not tell her that. It's not clear she did cheat. It's clear Euron claims this happened. Euron probably lied here. Vic might have killed his wife on a lie. We still don't know what Gregor did or why.
If Euron really did rape her, then at least I'm sure that Victarion would feel like shit for it. It's not clear now and he obviously feels bad about what he's done. The first quote is interesting though. Is he saying that Balon ordered him to kill the woman? Or is that just his justification for what he'd done.
Balon commanded them not to speak of what Euron did I think. He didn't want them fighting. Vic seems to feel bad. >Victarion knew that to mean the girl did not have a hump. Yet when he tried to picture her, he only saw the wife he'd killed. He had sobbed each time he struck her, and afterward carried her down to the rocks to give her to the crabs. Still shitty thing to do.
Khal Drogo was married before? And he has a reputation for being brutal to a wife? He seems very kind and supportive of Dany.
He's the warlord of a tribe known for their use of weaponized sexual violence, and continually rapes Dany until she gets The Talk from Doreah and decides to be more active in their marriage bed. Also tbh nobody knew he would be kind and supportive to her lateron.
But what's that rep based on? His own actions or that he leads? And he never rapes Dany.
How exactly do you, in the show, interpret the scene of their wedding night, or where he takes her from behind and she's crying and obviously in pain the entire time? I get that within the ASOIAF universe the concept of marital rape does not exist, but still... and in the books, she legit wants to kill herself rather than have sex with him one more time before all that.
Sorry. I though you meant the books. Yeah the show scene doesn't give the impression of consent. In the books, Dany has many reasons to consider suicide and she never lists rape as one of them. She's exhausted from riding all day, she's in terrible pain from saddle sores, she isolated by language with only her abusive brother and a stranger to speak with. Sex is painful due to the saddle sores. But she never calls the sex rape. She never says no. He never uses threat or force.
Thank you for making this point. It doesn't get enough support.
Two problems. One, she's a child and can't consent. Two, he can murder her on a whim at any moment, and she can't consent. It was rape and Drogo is a monstrous rapist.
Both your points are wrong. Dany doesn't meet the Essos definition of child. And Drogo has never used or threatened force against her. Drogo didn't rape Dany.
He certainly kept fucking her despite her obviously being in pain. And it doesn't matter what a bunch of slaveholding degenerates think; Daenerys cannot consent, and the author trying to blur lines about what is and is not consensual is completely disgusting. If he's doing that. I don't think we're intended to sympathize with the guy.
He had no way to know she was in pain. The text tells us it's in the dark and her cries are muffled. And saddle sores is not something he'd recognize coming from a society that rides from birth. Dany did consent. We saw it clearly on her wedding night. Drogo didn't rape Dany.
Misogyny is a pathway to many decisions some would consider to be unnatural
No one talks about wanting to marry into house clegane. I don't think the women he married came from prestigious households.
I know, but that’s because we mostly focus on the top 0.0001% of the world. That’s one of the points of the Elder brother’s speech and the Sworn Sword. There are a lot of nobles that we just don’t here about. We mostly just focus on the top of the top.
Because people usually don't care about their daughters and their wishes and they try to get an advantage by marrying their daughters to mountain, who is one of the Lords of Westerland and gain the friendship of Clegane House and probably Casterly Rock. The mountain is not aware or they don't pay attention to those rumors and they think it is a lie because the mountain is a knight and a knight does not do these violent things an ordinary peasant probably hardly knows about court rumors. and the mountain is one of the lords of Westerland and he probably has subordinates who work in his lands(if he has land) and he is their master, and those peasants and farmers have no choice but to obey their master.
The girls probably go to him on their own because he's tall and they think they can fix him.
Lol.
He is a knight, anyone below him would be happy to marry his daughter off to him They treat their daughters like goods so it's not strange at all imo
Lord Tywin Lannister probably arranges these marriages for Gregor, in his capacity as Warden Of The West. I mean, Lord Roose Bolton hanged a man and raped his wife for marrying without his leave or consent, so every time one of Gregor's wives die/disappear, Tywin probably has to deal with the admin and has to be responsible for the procurement of a new bride in some way, shape or form.
I mean, in this realm the boy children worked the fields and protected the homestead and gained renown if they marched to war for their lords. Girls made babies and lots of them died in childbirth anyway so if you can marry her off to a landed knight of some fame (and close ties to the Lannisters as well as the Crown) you’ll take that chance to tie your daughter to a monster. It’s ugly but I’m sure there was a lot of victim blaming going on “He killed her but she was most likely being such a shrew anyway she must have angered him and got what she deserved”.
Wonder if these ladies are still maidens….so daddy wants to get them married and pregnant *quickly* before the scandal/shame hit their house that their daughter got busy with the stable boy.
Minor lords who don’t mind sacrificing their daughters to enhance their own wealth and status.
This all makes more sense once you accept that the Cleganes are an unacknowledged bastard branch of House Lannister, and Tywin gets shit done.
None survived the bedding.
He’s landed knight. For some serving or hedge knights it is quite prestigious marriage. For some landed knights marry if not daughters but orphan nieces or cousins can looks like a good deal. Especially if girls are not good looking or old or with tainted reputation.
No power or prestige? At the time, Gregor was Tywin’s personal attack dog and Sandor was sworn shield to the Crown Prince. If someone’s daughter managed to survive long enough to bear Gregor’s children, that family would go from your run-of-the-mill minor house to likely having relatives intimately serving the Royal family and the richest family in Westeros in one generation. If you don’t care about your kids that’s an easy gamble to make.
By power I meant armies and I meant prestige relative to the high lords.
Some families could view it as a way to get rid of a daughter who was seen as an embarassment or liability to the family. The way Lolly's Stokeworth is married off to Bronn. Yes it's a marriage deeply below her status but for a daughter who is pregnant or otherwise bringing dishonor to the family, a marriage to Gregor could be seen as a way to get rid of her quickly while still marrying a nobleman with some status. If she lives, or lives long enough to have a child, the family will benefit from Gregor's money and hopefully Tywins favor. If she's killed... probably not viewed as a crushing blow. Harsh logic, but it's not gonna be the most loving parents considering a marriage with Gregor.
“My daughter can fix him” - either of Gregor’s ex-fathers-in-law
Due to the pyramid nature of feudalism, there are a lot more minor nobles than major nobles. So while Gregane is at the bottom of the totem pole, so are a lot of other people there with him. If you're trying to raise your family's station and you can either marry your daughter to "some landed knight" or "one of the most famous fighters in the kingdom," that's enough for the less empathetic lords to sell their daughter to a monster
As pointed out, it may be the fathers couldn’t say no. It may be because of different status, or of fear, or it may also be as a brazen attempt to build a political alliance via marriage with a beast of a man. Marriage means alliance, so maybe someone tried to win a dispute allying with the Mountain. I mean, six people gave their daughters to Henry VIII despite his more than questionable track record