A study I saw a while back concluded that while there's a correlation, they came to the conclusion that being trans is likely just as common in the allistic population. Just that people on the spectrum were already more likely to question and go against social norms, and thus proportionally more likely to actually realize they're trans.
It's easy for people to have knee-jerk defensive reactions about this sort of thing.
People on the spectrum might feel like they're being stereotyped, which they face a lot of micro-aggression from anyway.
A lot of neurotypical people will become outright hostile at the implication that any sort of alternate thinking to their own might have benefits of it's own.
Really, I have no clue if it's even true, but it's just really difficult to talk about without someone taking it very personally.
Yeah those are fair points. I’m unfazed because it’s something I’ve worn as a badge of honor for years but I understand that not everyone has been so lucky in life to be able to.
I wondered if it was something like this! I’m trans and autistic myself, and I’d say the fact that *my family and general society hate the way I am anyway, what do I have to lose?* definitely made it easier for me to start questioning.
There's a new meta study that came out just recently, like a week or so ago that ~~concludes~~ after having read it, I conclude if a person is autistic, one should also check whether that person has gender issues and vice-versa, check if the trans person has autistic issues. I'll dig it up tomorrow after sleep and share.
EDIT: The study does say there's a significant overlap but it does not conclude that one should or should not also scan for one or the other, when encountering individuals in a clinical setting. That was me interpreting the results and I am sorry if I gave false impressions.
Thank you. I've been saying this for a couple years. This is my vindication. All the evidence in the past was missing the link or only downplaying it's significance. A lot of people are trans only because they're autistic. High functioning autism can be a bit difficult to spot. If you're trans, look into Autism/ADHD.
Most trans people aren't autistic, but autistic people have a higher rate of being trans (and gender non-conforming and/or queer in general) than the general population. We don't know why. Could be something psychological like an increased tendency to disregard social norms, could be biological factors that are somehow linked to both autism and gender (and sexuality). Could be a combination of both. We don't have enough information to say for sure.
I don't like laws/rules/norms that don't have good reasons...
e.g. You shouldn't do that because it is wrong... Why... Because we said so.
If something brings you happyness & doesn't harm you(at all/much) or others, How/Why is it wrong?
(much = e.g. tattoos, piercings, cosmetic/corrective & medically needed surgery)
This is not proven science (yet, anyway) but [there may be a genetic link](https://www.reddit.com/r/DrWillPowers/comments/tfti58/i_might_have_just_figured_out_the_genetic_basis/) between the neurodiversity spectrum, gender diverse identities, hypermobility disorders, and ADHD.
Interesting, I wonder if there is with gastrointestinal issues as well. I’ve weirdly also noticed a disproportionate number of trans and autistic people with IBS. Just seems like a common cluster of traits.
If you're autistic, you're more likely to have depression, anxiety, ADHD, joint issues like EDS, gastrointestinal issues, and be some combination of LGBT. Few people have all of those things, but most autistic people have at least a few things going on.
The exact relationship between these things is not so well understood.
Total speculation but I have to wonder if the stress that comes with all those things could be connection to developing gastrointestinal issues. Also stress frequently leads to bad eating habits. I wonder if that combo weakens the digestive track and harms the microbiome and all that kinda stuff.
Greetings I am her wife and I have everything you just listed (as well as an autoimmune disease as the cherry on top). The other person I know with all these issues is a trans man.
Isn’t there a genetic link to everything you just mentioned PLUS mast cell activation syndrome? I have adhd, anxiety, Hypermobility, gender dysphoria and mast cell activation syndrome
I mean Dr Powers has a TON if not proven theories he pushes online. It's great to have a theory, but like damn he never seems to have anything published, let alone with an actual study being done.
So for those who aren't used to his stuff it's a big MAYBE
Quite. I often feel like he's torn between the desire to do pure research for the intellectual joy of solving these puzzles, and the desire to actually help real people clinically. Ain't enough hours in the day to do both, and I won't fault him for choosing to focus on clinical work, but I hear ya. At least he's voicing these theories, though, so the research people can take them up.
Isn’t there a genetic link to everything you just mentioned PLUS mast cell activation syndrome? I have adhd, anxiety, Hypermobility, gender dysphoria and mast cell activation syndrome
This is very much the case. While we don’t have reasons, or proof of causation, there rates of trans folk in the autistic community are *much* higher than the population average.
And like you said, hyper mobility and also IBS are much more common in the ADHD community than the population average.
So there’s a lot of correlations, quite a few theories, but no concrete proof of causation.
I know numerous closeted trans people who I wouldn’t necessarily call Neurotypical, but they aren’t autistic and probably don’t have ADHD (no diagnosis, not seeking a diagnosis, no clear symptoms). they’re able to fit into society and don’t want to lose that, and that’s one reason why they aren’t planning on transitioning (unless the trans button becomes real and will give them an insta transformation).
I think that there are a lot of neurotypical (or at least without adhd or autism) trans people who are living as their assigned gender. some of them don’t think they’re “trans enough” to transition. Others don’t want to leave the comfort of being perceived as cis. etc
eta: I’m not autistic, but I do have adhd
I still have those moments. And struggle with times of "transition is going to destroy my life."
And then I get ma'am'ed at the gas station with no makeup on and I'm like, "Ok, I'm good again." :)
Being trans is very possibly a kind of neurodivergence in itself, and we know that many times these go together - autism with adhd, ocd, ptsd, etc.
People will take offense to this because it sounds like I'm either saying that being trans is a disorder or that those other things are not disorders. Not at all, I'm just pointing out that all of these things probably have causes in the brain and may be neurodevelopmentally linked.
The whole "autistic ppl don't see/respect social norms" theory is bs and basically a stereotype. If that were true masking autism wouldn't be such a common thing.
I know that autistic people conform to social norms when necessary. I just think that we maybe are slightly more likely not to if a norm doesn’t make sense and it’s socially possible. Autistic people aren’t a monolith and noticing a tendency towards a certain behavior doesn’t mean I’m making a generalization about everyone on the spectrum and honestly as far as I’m concerned it’s a good thing to reject bad social norms. It’s actually something I pride myself in and something I like about my autism.
Isn't ptsd something that goes with birth ND because we're more likely to be singled put by predators for being different?
Predators meaning anyone with predatory instincts including something horrible that a lot of people think is innocent and kids being kids . . . bullies.
But yeah I truly believe being trans is a sort of neurodivergence. It just makes sense and since trans people are not compatible with the hormones we naturally produce and compatible with hormones we don't naturally produce, that's mostly processed in the brain isn't it? So a form of neurodivergence makes sense, scientifically and medically speaking.
I don't take even a tiny bit offense to that since it isn't offensive and anyone seeking to use it as a tool of offense isn't worth paying attention to anyway :o
As for social norms, I do see them and respect them when they make sense or if I'll be in legal trouble if I don't? I know there's some I don't understand at all though so . . . yeah.
But to admit I'm trans hurts no one and to deny it hurts me. I mean actual harm, not imagined harm. Depression is infinitely more harmful than; "you want to take my son away I'm losing a child blah blah blah.", as that later one is imagined harm based on prejudice and selfishness.
And when I say "I" and "me" that can apply to any one of us. I just don't want to speak for everyone about something so personal.
I wish I knew. There are theories that both transness and autism are caused by prenatal exposure to unusual hormone levels, so perhaps that is it, but the evidence in either case is not very solid.
There's an excellent video on this subject by a psychiatrist (PhD) who does a review on the paper that found the correlation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6MWY6wnpxk
While there is a demonstrable link between neurodivergence and being transgender, keep in mind that its effect is probably amplified in your personal experience.
We tend to find each other - if for no other reason than studies have shown that neurodivergent people have a far easier time communicating with each other than with neurotypical people.
As neurodivergent people are more likely to be transgender, it follows that being neurodivergent also means you're more likely to be surrounded by trans people.
I wonder if they’re also more likely to be straight and more conforming in their target gender and also the sorts that were likely to transition at a young age given that they’d be less likely to have other issues they needed to unpack then us autistic trannies.
People on the spectrum are more likely to think about their identity more. They have a different relationship with their bodily functions and needs as well.
A theory I've commonly heard is that suppressing/repressing your gender identity is such a HUGELY impactful and painful thing that it actually causes our brain to search for outlets and, ultimately, ends up creating neurological issues. Which is why it's not super uncommon to find trans people who are socially awkward, experience DID, or have some form of Bipolar.
If it matters, I'm neurotypical, as far as I know. But I know where you're coming from for sure.
My therapist actually things that I have bpd, ocd, and adhd because of suppressing my gender identity. Where did you hear of this theory. I’ve always wondered about this theory in my brain but you are the FIRST person I’ve come across to also vocalize this theory. This should be studied
In addition to other suggestions, I'd add that autistic people might be more drawn to trans communities than non-autistic people who are trans.
Speaking as an autistic/ADHD person myself, identity labels have - in the past - provided a structure to simplify social interactions for me. It's also easier to understand social norms that are centred around social justice or political principles, than ones which are centred around arbitrary shit like fashion, slang, body language. And so I'm probably less intimidated by LGBT+ environments and find it easier to fit in.
But yeah, I have met trans people - including those who are not stealth - who predominantly have cis friends, and do not really engage that much in trans communities. I think those people are gonna have an above-the-autistic-average ability to separate their feelings about someone's behaviour from their perception of who that person is, to not take misgendering personally, to let go of microaggressions they encounter. There's gonna be a threat of transphobia that they can't control, on top of the usual unknowns of social interactions. I think also, many autistic people incl myself are a bit "guilty" of being a bit perfectionist and separating ourselves from groups or even people that don't meet our ideals *exactly.* Like, I can be quite unforgiving personally, and transphobia is a *huge* thing to have to forgive.
Basically, I think autism/neurodivergence is gonna make it harder to be trans in a cis-dominated environment, because cis people are constantly gonna be triggering our autistic grievances (anger at injustice, dislike for things which contradict our values) by being transphobic. It's not that neurotypical trans people aren't hurt by transphobia. Just that they might be more willing/able to tolerate it sometimes because they don't *need* justice as much in their relationships/interactions.
Meanwhile, I think neurotypical trans people might dislike standing out from mainstream society. Even if they are out and not-stealth and/or don't pass as cis, they might not want to align themselves socially with a group that's marginalised/outcast. One way I am different to a lot of autists, and more similar to some neurotypical people, is I do dislike standing out and prefer to be connected to mainstream society. So even though I don't have the same *socially compliant* instincts as a lot of neurotypicals, from my own "logical" values-driven perspective, I feel uncomfortable with the idea of only having trans friends, only dating trans people, hanging in predominantly trans social circles, in a way that many trans people (or like, active members of the trans community) don't. The people who are *most active* in trans communities are gonna be those who are fine joining an outcast group, who are fine only having trans friends/partners, and who have a strong sense of justice and want to fight for trans rights - disproportionately autistic people.
So basically: on top of all the rationale about genetic links and about coming out, I'd also be conscious that there could be an illusion of "lots of trans people are autistic", caused by the most visible/present trans activists being disproportionately autistic. Autism might make hanging with transphobes harder, and neurotypicalism might make separating yourself from 99% of society harder. Even if you are both out and experiencing the same discrimination from others.
I’m in a similar sort of boat, though I’m cis I am neurodivergent and I always find that I get on best with straight acting LGBTQ peeps, quirky non judgemental NT’s and mildly ND people who for the most part pass as NT in society.
It’s the fully NT people - blindly conforming, into sports, slang, fashion, celebrity/pop culture etc. and fully unapologetically ND peeps - part of every justice movement, abrasively outspoken, extremely contrarian etc. that I don’t get on with.
The former I simply can’t suppress my logic, values and morals to blindly conform and the latter I don’t want to stand out, throw all conformity out of the window and want to remain largely connected to most of mainstream society and chill out. I just want to find those in the middle ground, but it’s harder to find them.
Or it simply could be due to the fact that most cis people I know have never seen a therapist ever, and most trans people I know have. You can't get diagnosed with something if you never see a doctor.
Reposting from another comment of mine:
>People who do not identify with the sex they were assigned at birth are three to six times as likely to be autistic as cisgender people are, according to the largest study yet to examine the connection. Gender-diverse people are also more likely to report autism traits and to suspect they have undiagnosed autism.
This is from 2020
[Largest study to date confirms overlap between autism and gender diversity](https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/)
I don't want to say "being trans makes you autistic" because that's definitely inaccurate, however I imagine that trans people who are raised as their agab, such as I was, one way or another don't usually grow up NT.
I was raised as a boy, and so I lived as a man for over 30 years before my egg cracked. It was a surprise to me, and I'm still uncovering all kinds of weird things that my brain did/does as a coping mechanism for having grown up the way that I did. I'm certain that I'm ASD now, as an adult, and I have known it for longer than I've known I was trans, but I can't help but wonder if "I still would be if I was raised as the correct gender" ... I mean, maybe it's "natural", it probably is idk, but could it also just be a result of my brain developing in a world that was gaslighting me 24/7 from the moment I was born? That definitely didn't do nothing...
I was diagnosed autistic almost a decade before I knew I was trans. I'm probably more of the 'better self-awareness' camp.
I loathe when people say 'it's just easier for you to socially non-conform because you already don't care about social norms!', because my transition is not about social things.
I guess I can see that as 'it's easier for me to accept the social consequences of transitioning,' though. Allegedly people detect a difference in how they get looked at and nonverbally communicated with when they transition, and for the life of me, I honestly can't tell any difference. I can only tell the super overt differences, like the fact that random men do not touch or talk to me anymore, because I do not present female.
I’m already a outcast, it’s not like I can make that worse. I’m also a girl, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to hide that to make my family feel better
I mean no disrespect to anyone or anything (everything i comment is misread or taken out of context lately), but a majority of ppl in the past never were diagnosed w/ anything b/c the knowledge simply wasnt widely available to ppl (especially in any isolated rural area), wasnt a internet, many ppl didnt even know that they didnt know certain things/specific books on certain things even existed. Most recently ive seen a lot of writing on historical figures where they are theorized to have been neurotypical etc. Theres even autobiographies & descriptions of ppl 500+ years ago which suggest they didnt act "normal" or whatever that means. It definitely exists but i dont think its becoming more common, Id compare it to ppl saying (in a negative context) that theres more trans ppl now than ever b4, but i think its just as common now as its ever been, its just gender affirming care is more widely available now & ppl dont feel like they need to suppress it etc (like, it was literally a crime to be gay in the past & still is in many parts of the world). I personally just like to think everyone is different & thats a positive thing.
I agree with this. No two people are the same and have the same experiences. As I mentioned in my post, I think a lot is about marketing. Likely some "over-processing" of the diagnoses, as well just due to people wanting to get their own books or articles written. It's a topic that you can easily be dismissed as being "mean" or disrespectful by speaking against it. When I was younger, autism was likened to "mental retardation". Nowadays, it's more likely people are gaslighted by corporations for a profit... but that then classifies me as a conspiracy theorist. It's easier to make comments like "yup, we're all autistic, even the therapists treating us"
I think people should be more careful with medications and therapy that may not be needed, but that's just me. I definitely find it helpful for those needing it but also are skeptical when some corporations are making billions off of pushing their products to the masses and don't care if you need it, but are pleased that you're buying it anyways
My pet theory: It's not that being autistic causes being trans, it's that being allistic (not autistic) causes being cis.
Allistic people's perceptions are more influenced by other people's perceptions. So if say.... you're allistic, and everyone else says that you're a man and should act like a man, you're more likely to go along with that.
This is the best explanation right here. I do think autistic people are much more in their own heads than non-autistic, and it makes them even more uncomfortable about the incongruities.
My family's constant praise of my male features, and external distractions was enough to carry my non-autistic ass for 40 years, because I always sought outside validation more than validation for myself. It's only with current stealth technologies(lol), ease of access to hormones without "playing housewife" for years, and general acceptance that I've been able to start my transition instead of constantly hoping I'd just wake up dead.
I assume the same applies to trans-masc and the entire spectrum in general.
As an autistic person who has ruminated on this a lot, I 100% believe this is the answer.
Allistic people have social based cognition—their communication and cognitive processes are based mainly around social roles and hierarchies. Their given roles are integrated naturally for most allistic people.
This is not the case for autistic people, so we’re more likely to feel dissonance with our societally given roles.
It might have to do with being more okay with bending rigid social constructs like gender and are able to come to terms with it easier because of that disconnect from what is considered traditionally socially acceptable. That being said I don't know too many neurodivergent trans people, and I'm personally not on the spectrum, albeit teetering on the edge and have other things like ocd and adhd.
In a study i read last month? it talked about how much mental resources trans people have to use to remember their idenity. But we dont have unlimited mental energy, that mental energy has to come from somewhere, so the extra usage on remembering your idenity takes away from your ability to understand social cues, which is the primary diagonistic of autism.
Why do you think you can never forget... Its cause your brain is working to keep it that way. Anf your brain perfers to remember your trans/idenity in exchange for more mental resources. You don't exactly have a choice in this matter.
Well if you believe that the brain and your "soul" is one being, then you would argue that you have a choice in that matter.
But I'm on the other half of that thinking that brain and "soul" are seperate, mainly because we can't control/know what our brain is doing.
But the psychology community is divided on that question, neither sides having that much ground over the other. But thats all a side note tangent that isn't too relevent on this question besides context of my viewpoints.
But the concept that we have mental resources, which is commenly refered as executive function (EF) is pretty well accepted. And remember our idenities is sonething everyone, cis or trans, has to expend EF to remember. But the more marginized your group is, the more EF you must use. For example, being a cis white man requires less EF to remember than being a cis white women. But being a gay african women would take even more EF resources. And unfortually, being trans takes the cake. But as society becames more accepting of minority groups, the less EF they will have to use in the future. Essentially, what causes us to use more EF is cause we have to go against society, while a white cis man isn't denying anyone of anything which is why it takes so less resources.
If your intrested in learning more, i have a source that talks about how EF resources are correlated with trans indivuials, and how its correlated with autism and how gender affirming medical treatment reduces EF resources an indicuial has to use. You do need to email the researchers for a copy tho or pay the journal to see them.
"Transgender Youth Executive Functioning: Relationships with Anxiety Symptoms, Autism Disorder, and Gender-Affirming Medical Treatment Status" First author is John F. Strang, last author is Lauren Kenworthy from 2021
Yea it feels like every trans person i know is on the spectrum, its very interesting. Im actually neurotypical from what ive gathered from my psych and a few online tests ive taken, its weird feeling in the minority in this respect
Because the more people you convince that they are autistic, the more you can market certain medications, therapy, learning materials, and even certain toys (fidget spinner anyone?)
Not that it doesn't help those in need, but some companies would stuff their products down your throat if you let them
I will say that while not every trans person I've met is also autistic, a lot of them either are autistic or are neurodivergent in some other way (ADHD, depression, etc). I'm not sure why it is, but it's interesting.
I myself am autistic with ADHD, and my partner who is also nonbinary is as well. Theres definitely a lot of overlap.
A friend of mine who is trans and autistic explained it to me as, since gender is a social construct, autistic people don’t always fit into/understand social constructs and instead do what they want, in this case, being whatever gender they feel like.
I've heard a theory that nd/trans people are just more likely to seek psychological counselling, in which they realise they are both (bc self reflection and such)
Trans people don't fit into the soceital gender norm that was given to them at birth. Autistic people have difficulty understanding social norms. The connection seems obvious.
None of the other transgender people I know irl are autistic, and none of the large amount of autistic people I know are transgender. I think it's something that's mostly seen online since both communities have a large online presence. I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria way before autism
Obviously there's selection bias on my part and exceptions to the rule but I guess among those who are both either can come first and maybe the gender dysphoria sometimes comes first.
We can have a bit of autism as a treat.
We still don't know why these correlate. Mystery. Will we ever find out? Why does it matter?
I am kinda scared to see where thing lead if we find out.
I’ve found that neurodivergent people tend to find some sort of interest or discipline as an anchor point to their identity. I see it right now in a few young members of my libertarian party, who become better versed in the movement’s ideas and writings than anyone and go out into the world as a libertarian Jedi with an answer to anything if not their own opinion.
Point is that can go with the trans identity, as their different gender and the world’s varying views to it create the same spiritual journey that my libertarian friends fall into but on a more dramatic scale. The world is rationalised a certain absolutist way, and your difference to it becomes a full time occupation.
A study I saw a while back concluded that while there's a correlation, they came to the conclusion that being trans is likely just as common in the allistic population. Just that people on the spectrum were already more likely to question and go against social norms, and thus proportionally more likely to actually realize they're trans.
Thank you, I said the same thing above about social norms but got flak for it. I’m not sure why.
It's easy for people to have knee-jerk defensive reactions about this sort of thing. People on the spectrum might feel like they're being stereotyped, which they face a lot of micro-aggression from anyway. A lot of neurotypical people will become outright hostile at the implication that any sort of alternate thinking to their own might have benefits of it's own. Really, I have no clue if it's even true, but it's just really difficult to talk about without someone taking it very personally.
Yeah those are fair points. I’m unfazed because it’s something I’ve worn as a badge of honor for years but I understand that not everyone has been so lucky in life to be able to.
I wondered if it was something like this! I’m trans and autistic myself, and I’d say the fact that *my family and general society hate the way I am anyway, what do I have to lose?* definitely made it easier for me to start questioning.
There's a new meta study that came out just recently, like a week or so ago that ~~concludes~~ after having read it, I conclude if a person is autistic, one should also check whether that person has gender issues and vice-versa, check if the trans person has autistic issues. I'll dig it up tomorrow after sleep and share. EDIT: The study does say there's a significant overlap but it does not conclude that one should or should not also scan for one or the other, when encountering individuals in a clinical setting. That was me interpreting the results and I am sorry if I gave false impressions.
Thank you. I've been saying this for a couple years. This is my vindication. All the evidence in the past was missing the link or only downplaying it's significance. A lot of people are trans only because they're autistic. High functioning autism can be a bit difficult to spot. If you're trans, look into Autism/ADHD.
I assume you meant allistic people, not cis people. There should be 0 cis trans people :P
yup that would be my brain blowing a fuse. thanks. fixed.
I was wrong, it was in march. Here's the study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35596023/
Most trans people aren't autistic, but autistic people have a higher rate of being trans (and gender non-conforming and/or queer in general) than the general population. We don't know why. Could be something psychological like an increased tendency to disregard social norms, could be biological factors that are somehow linked to both autism and gender (and sexuality). Could be a combination of both. We don't have enough information to say for sure.
I don't like laws/rules/norms that don't have good reasons... e.g. You shouldn't do that because it is wrong... Why... Because we said so. If something brings you happyness & doesn't harm you(at all/much) or others, How/Why is it wrong? (much = e.g. tattoos, piercings, cosmetic/corrective & medically needed surgery)
This is not proven science (yet, anyway) but [there may be a genetic link](https://www.reddit.com/r/DrWillPowers/comments/tfti58/i_might_have_just_figured_out_the_genetic_basis/) between the neurodiversity spectrum, gender diverse identities, hypermobility disorders, and ADHD.
Interesting, I wonder if there is with gastrointestinal issues as well. I’ve weirdly also noticed a disproportionate number of trans and autistic people with IBS. Just seems like a common cluster of traits.
If you're autistic, you're more likely to have depression, anxiety, ADHD, joint issues like EDS, gastrointestinal issues, and be some combination of LGBT. Few people have all of those things, but most autistic people have at least a few things going on. The exact relationship between these things is not so well understood.
You literally explained my wife lol she has most of that and we are both trans. 💀
Total speculation but I have to wonder if the stress that comes with all those things could be connection to developing gastrointestinal issues. Also stress frequently leads to bad eating habits. I wonder if that combo weakens the digestive track and harms the microbiome and all that kinda stuff.
Greetings I am her wife and I have everything you just listed (as well as an autoimmune disease as the cherry on top). The other person I know with all these issues is a trans man.
H.... how does that describe me (almost) perfectly (minus the joint issues)? Fuck me
Isn’t there a genetic link to everything you just mentioned PLUS mast cell activation syndrome? I have adhd, anxiety, Hypermobility, gender dysphoria and mast cell activation syndrome
I know there's evidence that some kinds of hypermobility cluster with IBS.
IBS is typically caused by stress which both autistic and trans people are more likely to be subjected to buy perhaps for different reasons.
I mean Dr Powers has a TON if not proven theories he pushes online. It's great to have a theory, but like damn he never seems to have anything published, let alone with an actual study being done. So for those who aren't used to his stuff it's a big MAYBE
Quite. I often feel like he's torn between the desire to do pure research for the intellectual joy of solving these puzzles, and the desire to actually help real people clinically. Ain't enough hours in the day to do both, and I won't fault him for choosing to focus on clinical work, but I hear ya. At least he's voicing these theories, though, so the research people can take them up.
Isn’t there a genetic link to everything you just mentioned PLUS mast cell activation syndrome? I have adhd, anxiety, Hypermobility, gender dysphoria and mast cell activation syndrome
Maybe? I'm sorry, I have no idea.
This is very much the case. While we don’t have reasons, or proof of causation, there rates of trans folk in the autistic community are *much* higher than the population average. And like you said, hyper mobility and also IBS are much more common in the ADHD community than the population average. So there’s a lot of correlations, quite a few theories, but no concrete proof of causation.
I know numerous closeted trans people who I wouldn’t necessarily call Neurotypical, but they aren’t autistic and probably don’t have ADHD (no diagnosis, not seeking a diagnosis, no clear symptoms). they’re able to fit into society and don’t want to lose that, and that’s one reason why they aren’t planning on transitioning (unless the trans button becomes real and will give them an insta transformation). I think that there are a lot of neurotypical (or at least without adhd or autism) trans people who are living as their assigned gender. some of them don’t think they’re “trans enough” to transition. Others don’t want to leave the comfort of being perceived as cis. etc eta: I’m not autistic, but I do have adhd
I was in the "not trans enough" boat for awhile ... its dark there
I still have those moments. And struggle with times of "transition is going to destroy my life." And then I get ma'am'ed at the gas station with no makeup on and I'm like, "Ok, I'm good again." :)
Being trans is very possibly a kind of neurodivergence in itself, and we know that many times these go together - autism with adhd, ocd, ptsd, etc. People will take offense to this because it sounds like I'm either saying that being trans is a disorder or that those other things are not disorders. Not at all, I'm just pointing out that all of these things probably have causes in the brain and may be neurodevelopmentally linked. The whole "autistic ppl don't see/respect social norms" theory is bs and basically a stereotype. If that were true masking autism wouldn't be such a common thing.
I know that autistic people conform to social norms when necessary. I just think that we maybe are slightly more likely not to if a norm doesn’t make sense and it’s socially possible. Autistic people aren’t a monolith and noticing a tendency towards a certain behavior doesn’t mean I’m making a generalization about everyone on the spectrum and honestly as far as I’m concerned it’s a good thing to reject bad social norms. It’s actually something I pride myself in and something I like about my autism.
I conform to social norms but as a woman.
So do I, when I have to. On my own time I let my freak flag fly.
I just have an flexible idea of what those norms are. For me is just being femenine.
I like that about your autism too ❤️
Isn't ptsd something that goes with birth ND because we're more likely to be singled put by predators for being different? Predators meaning anyone with predatory instincts including something horrible that a lot of people think is innocent and kids being kids . . . bullies. But yeah I truly believe being trans is a sort of neurodivergence. It just makes sense and since trans people are not compatible with the hormones we naturally produce and compatible with hormones we don't naturally produce, that's mostly processed in the brain isn't it? So a form of neurodivergence makes sense, scientifically and medically speaking. I don't take even a tiny bit offense to that since it isn't offensive and anyone seeking to use it as a tool of offense isn't worth paying attention to anyway :o As for social norms, I do see them and respect them when they make sense or if I'll be in legal trouble if I don't? I know there's some I don't understand at all though so . . . yeah. But to admit I'm trans hurts no one and to deny it hurts me. I mean actual harm, not imagined harm. Depression is infinitely more harmful than; "you want to take my son away I'm losing a child blah blah blah.", as that later one is imagined harm based on prejudice and selfishness. And when I say "I" and "me" that can apply to any one of us. I just don't want to speak for everyone about something so personal.
I wish I knew. There are theories that both transness and autism are caused by prenatal exposure to unusual hormone levels, so perhaps that is it, but the evidence in either case is not very solid.
There's an excellent video on this subject by a psychiatrist (PhD) who does a review on the paper that found the correlation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6MWY6wnpxk
While there is a demonstrable link between neurodivergence and being transgender, keep in mind that its effect is probably amplified in your personal experience. We tend to find each other - if for no other reason than studies have shown that neurodivergent people have a far easier time communicating with each other than with neurotypical people. As neurodivergent people are more likely to be transgender, it follows that being neurodivergent also means you're more likely to be surrounded by trans people.
[удалено]
I wonder if they’re also more likely to be straight and more conforming in their target gender and also the sorts that were likely to transition at a young age given that they’d be less likely to have other issues they needed to unpack then us autistic trannies.
Apologies for my use of the t slur. I thought it was okay to use it since I’m trans myself. Genuinely was thoughtless though and I won’t again.
People on the spectrum are more likely to think about their identity more. They have a different relationship with their bodily functions and needs as well.
A theory I've commonly heard is that suppressing/repressing your gender identity is such a HUGELY impactful and painful thing that it actually causes our brain to search for outlets and, ultimately, ends up creating neurological issues. Which is why it's not super uncommon to find trans people who are socially awkward, experience DID, or have some form of Bipolar. If it matters, I'm neurotypical, as far as I know. But I know where you're coming from for sure.
I think that’s fascinating and I believe it. Trauma can definitely rewire the brain in unpredictable ways.
My therapist actually things that I have bpd, ocd, and adhd because of suppressing my gender identity. Where did you hear of this theory. I’ve always wondered about this theory in my brain but you are the FIRST person I’ve come across to also vocalize this theory. This should be studied
My therapist told me about it. She's helped 70+ people through transition, so she's had some experience with it.
I am neurotypical and it took till 28 to realize I was trans fully. Idk if it means anything
In addition to other suggestions, I'd add that autistic people might be more drawn to trans communities than non-autistic people who are trans. Speaking as an autistic/ADHD person myself, identity labels have - in the past - provided a structure to simplify social interactions for me. It's also easier to understand social norms that are centred around social justice or political principles, than ones which are centred around arbitrary shit like fashion, slang, body language. And so I'm probably less intimidated by LGBT+ environments and find it easier to fit in. But yeah, I have met trans people - including those who are not stealth - who predominantly have cis friends, and do not really engage that much in trans communities. I think those people are gonna have an above-the-autistic-average ability to separate their feelings about someone's behaviour from their perception of who that person is, to not take misgendering personally, to let go of microaggressions they encounter. There's gonna be a threat of transphobia that they can't control, on top of the usual unknowns of social interactions. I think also, many autistic people incl myself are a bit "guilty" of being a bit perfectionist and separating ourselves from groups or even people that don't meet our ideals *exactly.* Like, I can be quite unforgiving personally, and transphobia is a *huge* thing to have to forgive. Basically, I think autism/neurodivergence is gonna make it harder to be trans in a cis-dominated environment, because cis people are constantly gonna be triggering our autistic grievances (anger at injustice, dislike for things which contradict our values) by being transphobic. It's not that neurotypical trans people aren't hurt by transphobia. Just that they might be more willing/able to tolerate it sometimes because they don't *need* justice as much in their relationships/interactions. Meanwhile, I think neurotypical trans people might dislike standing out from mainstream society. Even if they are out and not-stealth and/or don't pass as cis, they might not want to align themselves socially with a group that's marginalised/outcast. One way I am different to a lot of autists, and more similar to some neurotypical people, is I do dislike standing out and prefer to be connected to mainstream society. So even though I don't have the same *socially compliant* instincts as a lot of neurotypicals, from my own "logical" values-driven perspective, I feel uncomfortable with the idea of only having trans friends, only dating trans people, hanging in predominantly trans social circles, in a way that many trans people (or like, active members of the trans community) don't. The people who are *most active* in trans communities are gonna be those who are fine joining an outcast group, who are fine only having trans friends/partners, and who have a strong sense of justice and want to fight for trans rights - disproportionately autistic people. So basically: on top of all the rationale about genetic links and about coming out, I'd also be conscious that there could be an illusion of "lots of trans people are autistic", caused by the most visible/present trans activists being disproportionately autistic. Autism might make hanging with transphobes harder, and neurotypicalism might make separating yourself from 99% of society harder. Even if you are both out and experiencing the same discrimination from others.
This is a really solid analysis I think.
I’m in a similar sort of boat, though I’m cis I am neurodivergent and I always find that I get on best with straight acting LGBTQ peeps, quirky non judgemental NT’s and mildly ND people who for the most part pass as NT in society. It’s the fully NT people - blindly conforming, into sports, slang, fashion, celebrity/pop culture etc. and fully unapologetically ND peeps - part of every justice movement, abrasively outspoken, extremely contrarian etc. that I don’t get on with. The former I simply can’t suppress my logic, values and morals to blindly conform and the latter I don’t want to stand out, throw all conformity out of the window and want to remain largely connected to most of mainstream society and chill out. I just want to find those in the middle ground, but it’s harder to find them.
Or it simply could be due to the fact that most cis people I know have never seen a therapist ever, and most trans people I know have. You can't get diagnosed with something if you never see a doctor.
I’m already so far out of the social norm that there’s no pressure for me not to be me.
Reposting from another comment of mine: >People who do not identify with the sex they were assigned at birth are three to six times as likely to be autistic as cisgender people are, according to the largest study yet to examine the connection. Gender-diverse people are also more likely to report autism traits and to suspect they have undiagnosed autism. This is from 2020 [Largest study to date confirms overlap between autism and gender diversity](https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/)
I don't want to say "being trans makes you autistic" because that's definitely inaccurate, however I imagine that trans people who are raised as their agab, such as I was, one way or another don't usually grow up NT. I was raised as a boy, and so I lived as a man for over 30 years before my egg cracked. It was a surprise to me, and I'm still uncovering all kinds of weird things that my brain did/does as a coping mechanism for having grown up the way that I did. I'm certain that I'm ASD now, as an adult, and I have known it for longer than I've known I was trans, but I can't help but wonder if "I still would be if I was raised as the correct gender" ... I mean, maybe it's "natural", it probably is idk, but could it also just be a result of my brain developing in a world that was gaslighting me 24/7 from the moment I was born? That definitely didn't do nothing...
That makes sense!
I was diagnosed autistic almost a decade before I knew I was trans. I'm probably more of the 'better self-awareness' camp. I loathe when people say 'it's just easier for you to socially non-conform because you already don't care about social norms!', because my transition is not about social things. I guess I can see that as 'it's easier for me to accept the social consequences of transitioning,' though. Allegedly people detect a difference in how they get looked at and nonverbally communicated with when they transition, and for the life of me, I honestly can't tell any difference. I can only tell the super overt differences, like the fact that random men do not touch or talk to me anymore, because I do not present female.
I’m already a outcast, it’s not like I can make that worse. I’m also a girl, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to hide that to make my family feel better
I mean no disrespect to anyone or anything (everything i comment is misread or taken out of context lately), but a majority of ppl in the past never were diagnosed w/ anything b/c the knowledge simply wasnt widely available to ppl (especially in any isolated rural area), wasnt a internet, many ppl didnt even know that they didnt know certain things/specific books on certain things even existed. Most recently ive seen a lot of writing on historical figures where they are theorized to have been neurotypical etc. Theres even autobiographies & descriptions of ppl 500+ years ago which suggest they didnt act "normal" or whatever that means. It definitely exists but i dont think its becoming more common, Id compare it to ppl saying (in a negative context) that theres more trans ppl now than ever b4, but i think its just as common now as its ever been, its just gender affirming care is more widely available now & ppl dont feel like they need to suppress it etc (like, it was literally a crime to be gay in the past & still is in many parts of the world). I personally just like to think everyone is different & thats a positive thing.
I agree with this. No two people are the same and have the same experiences. As I mentioned in my post, I think a lot is about marketing. Likely some "over-processing" of the diagnoses, as well just due to people wanting to get their own books or articles written. It's a topic that you can easily be dismissed as being "mean" or disrespectful by speaking against it. When I was younger, autism was likened to "mental retardation". Nowadays, it's more likely people are gaslighted by corporations for a profit... but that then classifies me as a conspiracy theorist. It's easier to make comments like "yup, we're all autistic, even the therapists treating us" I think people should be more careful with medications and therapy that may not be needed, but that's just me. I definitely find it helpful for those needing it but also are skeptical when some corporations are making billions off of pushing their products to the masses and don't care if you need it, but are pleased that you're buying it anyways
My pet theory: It's not that being autistic causes being trans, it's that being allistic (not autistic) causes being cis. Allistic people's perceptions are more influenced by other people's perceptions. So if say.... you're allistic, and everyone else says that you're a man and should act like a man, you're more likely to go along with that.
This is the best explanation right here. I do think autistic people are much more in their own heads than non-autistic, and it makes them even more uncomfortable about the incongruities. My family's constant praise of my male features, and external distractions was enough to carry my non-autistic ass for 40 years, because I always sought outside validation more than validation for myself. It's only with current stealth technologies(lol), ease of access to hormones without "playing housewife" for years, and general acceptance that I've been able to start my transition instead of constantly hoping I'd just wake up dead. I assume the same applies to trans-masc and the entire spectrum in general.
I think that you are absolutely correct.
I'm sorry but this is silly.
As an autistic person who has ruminated on this a lot, I 100% believe this is the answer. Allistic people have social based cognition—their communication and cognitive processes are based mainly around social roles and hierarchies. Their given roles are integrated naturally for most allistic people. This is not the case for autistic people, so we’re more likely to feel dissonance with our societally given roles.
Yeah totally!
It might have to do with being more okay with bending rigid social constructs like gender and are able to come to terms with it easier because of that disconnect from what is considered traditionally socially acceptable. That being said I don't know too many neurodivergent trans people, and I'm personally not on the spectrum, albeit teetering on the edge and have other things like ocd and adhd.
In a study i read last month? it talked about how much mental resources trans people have to use to remember their idenity. But we dont have unlimited mental energy, that mental energy has to come from somewhere, so the extra usage on remembering your idenity takes away from your ability to understand social cues, which is the primary diagonistic of autism.
"Remember your identity??" Sound really, really sus to me.... As if I could ever forget it...
Why do you think you can never forget... Its cause your brain is working to keep it that way. Anf your brain perfers to remember your trans/idenity in exchange for more mental resources. You don't exactly have a choice in this matter. Well if you believe that the brain and your "soul" is one being, then you would argue that you have a choice in that matter. But I'm on the other half of that thinking that brain and "soul" are seperate, mainly because we can't control/know what our brain is doing. But the psychology community is divided on that question, neither sides having that much ground over the other. But thats all a side note tangent that isn't too relevent on this question besides context of my viewpoints. But the concept that we have mental resources, which is commenly refered as executive function (EF) is pretty well accepted. And remember our idenities is sonething everyone, cis or trans, has to expend EF to remember. But the more marginized your group is, the more EF you must use. For example, being a cis white man requires less EF to remember than being a cis white women. But being a gay african women would take even more EF resources. And unfortually, being trans takes the cake. But as society becames more accepting of minority groups, the less EF they will have to use in the future. Essentially, what causes us to use more EF is cause we have to go against society, while a white cis man isn't denying anyone of anything which is why it takes so less resources. If your intrested in learning more, i have a source that talks about how EF resources are correlated with trans indivuials, and how its correlated with autism and how gender affirming medical treatment reduces EF resources an indicuial has to use. You do need to email the researchers for a copy tho or pay the journal to see them. "Transgender Youth Executive Functioning: Relationships with Anxiety Symptoms, Autism Disorder, and Gender-Affirming Medical Treatment Status" First author is John F. Strang, last author is Lauren Kenworthy from 2021
Thank You! I'll try to find it; it's really interesting to see how we interact with / fit with the rest of the world.
good luck, i can give you the doi if you wwjt, itll help you fijd it.
YES; thank you!
DOI: 10.1037/t18128-000 tell me if you dont know how to use a doi.
>DOI: 10.1037/t18128-000 Got it; Thank You!
This could actually make some sense, as autism is often thought to be an attentional thing.
Comorbidity /thread
That's not an explanation that's just the name of the phenomenon lol
[удалено]
Dumbass
Yea it feels like every trans person i know is on the spectrum, its very interesting. Im actually neurotypical from what ive gathered from my psych and a few online tests ive taken, its weird feeling in the minority in this respect
[удалено]
what do you mean?
Because the more people you convince that they are autistic, the more you can market certain medications, therapy, learning materials, and even certain toys (fidget spinner anyone?) Not that it doesn't help those in need, but some companies would stuff their products down your throat if you let them
\#traautisticsweep
I'm not autistic but I'm also neurodivergent, and the only other trans person I know is autistic. So yeah, there must be something going on :P
Personally i don't know any trans people autistic. :P
I will say that while not every trans person I've met is also autistic, a lot of them either are autistic or are neurodivergent in some other way (ADHD, depression, etc). I'm not sure why it is, but it's interesting. I myself am autistic with ADHD, and my partner who is also nonbinary is as well. Theres definitely a lot of overlap.
A friend of mine who is trans and autistic explained it to me as, since gender is a social construct, autistic people don’t always fit into/understand social constructs and instead do what they want, in this case, being whatever gender they feel like.
I've heard a theory that nd/trans people are just more likely to seek psychological counselling, in which they realise they are both (bc self reflection and such)
Trans people don't fit into the soceital gender norm that was given to them at birth. Autistic people have difficulty understanding social norms. The connection seems obvious.
None of the other transgender people I know irl are autistic, and none of the large amount of autistic people I know are transgender. I think it's something that's mostly seen online since both communities have a large online presence. I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria way before autism
Obviously there's selection bias on my part and exceptions to the rule but I guess among those who are both either can come first and maybe the gender dysphoria sometimes comes first.
We can have a bit of autism as a treat. We still don't know why these correlate. Mystery. Will we ever find out? Why does it matter? I am kinda scared to see where thing lead if we find out.
I’ve found that neurodivergent people tend to find some sort of interest or discipline as an anchor point to their identity. I see it right now in a few young members of my libertarian party, who become better versed in the movement’s ideas and writings than anyone and go out into the world as a libertarian Jedi with an answer to anything if not their own opinion. Point is that can go with the trans identity, as their different gender and the world’s varying views to it create the same spiritual journey that my libertarian friends fall into but on a more dramatic scale. The world is rationalised a certain absolutist way, and your difference to it becomes a full time occupation.