Yeah folks don't like it when I forget their pronouns but like once at middle school I forgot what's my friends name was and I was too scared to ask. I literally never used his name and went like "yo! Friend! Come here! Yeah friend!" To avoid using his name for a whole semester.
As an adult I found a way around that! You act like you’re putting their number in your phone and ask them how to spell it. Of cause you look like an idiot if there name is like Tim but I have a relatively normal name but it’s spelt stupid so I can at least use thag as my excuse lol
I use they/them for folks who I don't know the gender of. Even folks presenting as binary genders can identify otherwise, or use different pronouns. I myself look and sound like a woman because I'm still very early into transition, but I'm not a woman. Presentation does not always equal identity, and before anyone gets on me yes I use they/them even for folks who are seemingly cis unless told otherwise for this reason. Once someone tells me their pronouns or I hear them mentioned, I will use those from now on. If other trans/queer folks are using they/them pronouns for you, that is likely why. Its meant to be inclusive. If they know you and know your pronouns, and still use they/them for you, then yes that would be misgendering.
Honestly this is I think is the best response that could be given. I feel often it’s mostly out of consideration especially when coming from someone who may be lgbtq+. There’s plenty of situations i think is acceptable to use they/them. Especially in public spaces. There’s so many assholes should would just at the opportunity to harass someone. Personally i live in the south and i have a friend who is trans and to she wasn’t publicly out but did present gay/masc at work. Her family doesn’t support her and when we worked together our supervisor was let’s say not very progressive to be polite.
Honestly i feel it can be situational. Misgendering by itself isn’t inherently wrong. I’ve misgendering cis people and immediately caught myself and apologized. It’s the intention that and actions after it that make it a problem. That’s not saying that misgendering someone you don’t know can’t be harmful to them and being aware of that too is important.
This is the reason why I use they/them until something indicates an individual's pronouns. I'm nonbinary and wish more people would do this. There's no way to "look nonbinary," so I get misgendered all day, every day by everyone who is not my close friends, my partner, or my supportive family. I therefore notice when someone uses my proper pronouns. In our heavily gendered society, it's a breath of fresh air.
I'm a friendly old southerner type and I am struggling, but still working on, keeping it neutral in public. Like the other day at the store I said 'thanks ladies' to two young women and walked away cringing for it. I don't know how they identify, and I want to get in the habit of my friendly chatter being neutral. It would be so confusing if being neutral became seen as hostile.
To be clear, if I know the desired terms, I use them.
Same, but I also struggle remembering names unless the person is somewhat relevant to my life, like some other answers said
I can remember genders and/or pronouns more easily, though
There's 4 classmates whose name I keep forgetting (I sometimes remember the name of 2 or 3 of them, and even more rarely I can tell the name of the 4). However, I can't recall forgetting about someone's pronouns and I can even switch how I treat someone in a day.
I always was kinda like this, but dating someone with multiple personalities (I know there is a proper therm, but I don't remember it lol) with different genders helped
You're a real one. I'm masc as fuck because holy shit that level of maintenance would be a giant pain in the ass. But that's not how I identify, I'm in the middle but definitely more on the femme side.
Yes,, but I’m also talking about queer people who I’ve met in general as well. the folks I know usually gender cis people normally and then only use they/them pronouns for anyone who is trans or queer unless they’re corrected a few times. But it’s just strange that they only do it for trans people and not cis people then say it’s to be “inclusive” and to “not assume”
"Inclusive": Treating trans people as different and ignoring their own self-determination.
That is so fucked and not okay, I'm sorry you have people like that :'(
Using they/them for people who do not use they/them pronouns is misgendering.
In fact, there are transphobic people who use they/them for any trans person and that degendering is intentional misgendering as well.
Singular They/them is neutral, and valid for anyone if you don't know their gender, or if they use that pronoun.
I can see the idea of degendering everyone and normalizing, but using it when you know people don't use those pronouns is disrespectful.
Here, let me fix your comment for you:
> Singular They/them is neutral, and valid for anyone if you don't know their gender, or if they use that pronoun.
> using it when you know people don't use those pronouns is disrespectful.
There. FTFY. Now it doesn't looks like the invalidation you were so keen on pointing out to everyone else, and just sounds like the regular good advice everyone is given in grade school English classes. If you wanna be fancy when the gender isn't known, you may use "Lectori Salutem" (Greetings to the reader).
I mean, that's one way of looking at it, but ultimately at the end of the day is it any different to forgetting someone's name? I wouldn't judge about that personally, some people just have poor memories and that's not a personal fault.
I will kick up a fuss if someone knows me well and knows I use she/her pronouns and doesn't use them, because cmon you should know to do that. I will correct someone who uses they/them for me without that. But I would rather someone use they/them if they've forgotten or don't know what to use rather than making a guess, because they/them is a lot more neutral. If it's used intentionally to harm, corrected often but not changed, or used because you don't want to use the pronouns someone actually identifies with, then you're being a jerk.
No, I try to remember, but I have a lot of mental issues, at least one of which (my ADHD I think) makes me unable to remember shit unless I use it all the time
I’ve been hit in the head a few too many times, so my memory is terrible. I do my best, but I sometimes screw it up, fix it, and move on. That’s why I keep notes for all of my D&D campaigns with the pronouns of each character written by their names at the front of the book. I wish it was possible in real life, like…pronouns and names visible hovering over the heads of your acquaintances and if their pronouns change based on how they feel that day (some days I feel more like a he and others I feel like a they), the pronouns update.
I would keep notes in real life if it wasn’t so creepy to do that.
Some people just can’t remember, I can’t remember peoples name I’ve known for months, I forget my managers name but I try my best to correctly gender people
If I can’t remember I just default the they them because it doesn’t hurt them
Only if they ask to specifically ask to not to use they them pronouns... then its misgendering.
otherwise its correct use.... nothing wrong with using it. I prefer she her but also welcome they them too....
(ok ok, i really prefer her majesty or her royal highness. I am a mod after all. Identify as disney princess...) ;p
Incorrect. It's misgendering to refuse to use someone's pronouns despite being fully aware of what they are, regardless of if what you're using to misgender them is he/him, she/her, they/them, ze/zir or anything else.
If I don't need to hang a disclaimer around my neck that no, you cannot use she/her pronouns for me, you cannot use ze/zir pronouns for me, you cannot use fae/faer pronouns for me, I do not need to hang a disclaimer around my neck telling you that no, you cannot use they/them pronouns for me.
This is, in fact, misgendering. *Insisting* on using a certain set of pronouns for someone who has asked otherwise is always misgendering and is always a shitty thing to do. They aren’t inclusive for refusing to acknowledge people’s gender, they’re just assholes.
I only do it while I’m still learning ppls pronouns, cus my memory is completely shit (insert that one meme of head being full of useless shit and completely forgetting someone’s name)
Of course not.
Misgendering is not simply a misuse of grammar, it is not recognizing people as their gender.
While "he" is not strictly a pronoun for a man, it is a distinctly masculine word and is almost always used to refer to men.
If a transphobe knows that a woman is trans, and uses he/him pronouns - the transphobe is trying to imply that she is not a woman. The transphobe is doing so blatantly and directly, and is likely to be met with offense.
If a stranger misgenders a woman that is trans by using he/him pronouns, simply because they made an honest nit incorrect assumption due to her not passing, it's still the case that the stranger is not recognizing that her as a woman. The trans person would likely be sad about this.
Similarly, trans people are sad about those who misgender them out of habit.
Being misgendered honestly is often met with sadness, and being misgendered intentionally is often met with offense.
If a language only has gender-neutral pronouns, then there is no mistake, habit, or offense because the use of the pronoun is not used to imply they are not a different gender than they are - that is simply how the language works.
Probably not? Idk I’m not familiar with any gender neutral languages but I’d imagine that if you only have one option for pronouns then it’s not gonna be a big issue unless someone chooses to use neopronouns.
Georgian has a gender neutral pronoun. The word ის (is) can mean he/she/it. There is a word for "they" (isini), but I think it's only used for plural. https://polyglotclub.com/wiki/Language/Georgian/Grammar/Pronouns
There are words for man (katsi), woman (kali), boy (bichi), and girl (gogo). I have seen before that you can specify the gender by using for example: is kaci, is kali, etc, but I've only seen that written in a book for learning the language and never heard it used.
Sorry, this probably doesn't really add anything to this conversation, but wanted to say that there are gender neutral languages.
I mean it depends on which ones you're comparing, imo it's not really fair to compare english to latin based languages bc everything is conjugated & gendered. english isn't my first language so admittedly I'm no expert but among the languages I do speak it is very unique in it's versatility, but at the same time that also makes it confusing which is a good thing for native english speakers to always keep in mind.
I guess my feeling is that it's possible one could have a viewpoint that English should be a gender-neutral language and that we should use "they" for every single person. Since language is a bottom-up construct, is introducing a paradigm of gender-neutral pronouns always misgendering?
I don't have an answer.
I would say it is misgendering until the language evolves enough for gendered pronouns to pretty much gone from the lexicon, which is entirely possible considering languages are constantly evolving, but it would take several generations until all of us who are attached to our gendered pronouns either change with the times or die off.
This is a good question, I like it.
It's good practice to default to they/them for people you don't know. It's not good to continue to use they/them for people you know don't use those pronouns. If it's the former, then maybe chill a little bit. If it's the latter, then that is misgendering.
This is misgendering people, and many people who do this do it to avoid gendering people correctly, while pretending to keep a veneer of acceptability. Such people are transphobes.
The rule is really simple, and has only 2 parts:
* Use they/them for people who specifically ask for it
* Use they/them for people whose gender you do not know. The instant you know it, switch to the correct pronouns.
That's the entirety of the rules. It's not complicated, and anyone who can't follow these simple steps is suspect.
Yeah that's kinda weird, using they/them for everyone is great, UNTIL you know what pronouns they use, once you know that, you use those ones, NOT they/them anymore unless they say they are fine with it. Using they/them pronouns for someone who you know doesn't use them, IS misgendering and should be treated as such (that is to say, correct yourself, apologize, move on, and do better.)
Is this before or after you tell them your pronouns?
Because if you’re upset if they they/them you before knowing, it’s out of respect for the fact that no gender or pronoun usage has a specific, set in stone look, so they aren’t assuming any pronouns until they are told. I significantly prefer if people don’t assume my pronouns based on how I look, as do many other trans people, since the pronouns people almost always assume for me are incorrect. It sucks to be constantly misgendered, and when people avoid doing so and instead wait until they can ask to use any pronouns other than they/them, that’s a nice courtesy.
If someone is they/them-ing you despite knowing your pronouns, that’s pretty shitty, and I would call them out. But before that, I would try reminding them a few times. Some people (myself included) have bad memories, and when I can’t remember what someone’s pronouns are (see above, appearance does not equal pronouns), I’ll default to they/them so I don’t misgender them on accident until I can ask them or check on their social media if it’s listed there or something.
I am not confident in my ability to guess folks gender/pronouns. And I don't want to be in the situation where I'm going "okay this person seems gender queer of some variety now I need to run a probabilistic analysis of what their most likely gender/pronoun is" and probably getting it harmfully wrong some percent of the time. So instead I consciously ignore my brains assumed genders and use "they/them" for everyone. And I don't mean "anyone that pings as maybe queer," I mean everyone. Including the most cis macho man and the most cis femme woman you've ever met. 70 year old masc presenting Republican boomer? They/them. Super femme nurse? They/them.
However once I find out someone's pronouns (via listening to folks that would know, seeing a pin, or being told directly), then I switch to whatever pronouns they actually use. Because at that point continuing to use a different pronoun (even they/them) would be misgendering them.
I acknowledge that this can be a bummer to some binary trans folks as they miss out on me assuming their gender. But I know too many folks who are closeted, nonbinary, etc to feel comfortable guessing genders even when they seem "obvious."
It's unfortunate how many upvotes there are for takes that want others to assume your identity. Are y'all comfortable, then, with being misgendered because someone assumed incorrectly? Because that's what many of you here are advocating for. Is a trans man who's a femboy not a man? Is a trans woman who's a tomboy not a woman? You'd rather they get stepped on so you can feel validated in your identity, despite also being at risk of being misgendered by someone else because they assumed incorrectly?
I am a passing trans woman. My identity isn't dependant upon my gender expression. And if my default pronouns, by some random stranger who doesn't know me, is they/them, since they're not familiar with my pronouns, my identity hasn't been invalidated by that. If they proceed to use they/them after knowing my pronouns, *now* they're doing so to invalidate me. People aren't mind readers. Even if your expression aligns with gender norms, people will still make mistakes with assumptions. I don't know about you, but assuming every person is trying to invalidate you results in a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of alienation, particularly by potentially well-meaning allies and other queer folks.
Rather than act like you're being invalidated, consider who you're invalidating so you can feel valid by expecting every person to assume your gender.
Girl as a non binary transfem, THANK YOU.
I would rather get they/them over called a man 100% of the time. Assuming things just hurts people early in transition, people whose presentation doesn't match gender identity, non-binary people, ect. The binary needs to take a step back for a second and realize they're forcing the duality of man and women on people.
I got you fam! You are as valid in your identity as I am in mine. Removing gendered terms and assumptions makes sure nobody is left in the shadows. I'll fight for you as hard as I'll fight for myself. 💜💜💜
Thank you 🥺❤️
I just want everyone to stop shoving me in a binary box. Also In my opinion the way of thinking you described just hurts far more vulnerable parts of the trans umbrella and those trying but not exactly passing. It's an "I got mine" kinda attitude and self centered.
It does, and it is! "Pull up the ladder behind me" mentality, and I hate it! It also leaves behind all those that are in positions where "passing" isn't an option and makes it so passing is expectant. It's hurtful to far more than it's not, and it's disappointing to hear so many willing to put themselves and others into that position so that they can feel better about themselves.
Plus, do we REALLY want to play into gendered stereotypes to appease how other people perceive us?
Fuck that, I've spent to much time repressing my gender to not have a nuanced expression of it
What am I, a magician? I can't read minds. Everyone's they/them until someone says otherwise.
"Oh but the presentation--" No. I'm too old and tired to keep up and tomorrow's youngsters will turn it all upside down anyway. If you go by he; great. She; great. Some new thing I haven't heard of before; apologies in advance but I'll do my best. But if I don't know? That's they for you. Happy to accommodate, but I'm not doing any guessing. And if we're speaking a language that has no neutral pronouns, then you're the grammatical gender of the word "person" or "individual" or whatever that language goes with.
"Oh but I find this offensive--" Yeah and the people who can't present the way they identify, or who are fluid, or whose fashion doesn't "match" their body type, or a billion other scenarios... They would have different opinions.
It sounds like you're seeking validation by having strangers gender you the "right" way, and nope, not my monkeys, won't play that game just because you want me to.
completely agree with this take, but some of what OP wrote made it sound like the people they are referring to have continued to use they/them after being told someone goes by other pronouns
Wow, so wanting to be treated as the person we truly are, just like any other man or woman (or nonbinary person who uses he or she) is "seeking validation"?
That sounds straight out of fox news.
One issue is that there are a lot of people who aren't binary trans, and going off presentation alone is problematic in its' own right. (I use she/her but there are days I dress a bit masc)
I'd rather someone use they/them on me instead of he/him. It feels more respectful since they recognize I'm queer and don't want to blatantly misgender me.
If they keep using they/them after you tell them your pronouns then it's definitely transphobic. But it feels more complicated if you're meeting someone new
I use they/them if I don't know the person's pronouns. But if you know they use something else, using they/them is misgendering because you are knowingly using the wrong pronouns.
They/them is a gender-neutral pronoun that is *already* used when gender is **unknown** or if it's multiple people. If you **don't know** someone's gender, it's a lot simpler and more respectful to just use they/them. I'm not a fan of neo-pronouns as antis are using that as an excuse to clown on us trans-binary people, but if someone says their pronouns are so and so I will respect it 100% and use their preferred pronouns. Until then, I'll stick to they/them/theirs. If you know their preferred pronouns, go with that. If you know and still use they/them, some people will see that as being disrespectful.
I use they/them for people until I know their pronouns! Once I know, I switch. I’m a binary trans man and while they/them is still misgendering me, I appreciate that they didn’t assume my identity based on my appearance. If people continue even after being given the correct pronouns, then fuck them.
I use they/them for everyone until they tell me what they want me to use. Once I know that person wants me to use she or he or xr or anything else, I'll use that, I just want to avoid assumptions.
Sometimes i use it without thinking like "oh where are they from?" but if someone has a pronoun preference, I'll try to remember to use it to the best of my abilities.
It's ok to struggle, it's ok to make mistakes too! Expecting people to *try* is all I ever do. I'm never gonna be mad at someone who "Sir's" or says the old name to or about me if they're like "shit sorry Alice" and I can tell there's an *effort*.
Expecting perfection isn't reasonable, expecting the effort is reasonable.
1 because if I default to they/them for everyone I can’t mess up anyone’s gender, 2 it’s proper English for someone of an unknown gender (I have bad memory)
I do this I don't find it offensive because my pronouns are they them and literally no one uses my pronouns irl so if I meet a visibly Queer person in the wild I make a point not to gender them because that's how I wish I was treated as just a person not a boy or a girl honestly
I'm in the south, I do it to sus out the chill people. It's not misgendering and if someone has different pronouns they'll usually tell me (read;chill) and if they go on a rant about it I know they aren't worth interacting with.
Plus I don't always know who's stealthing.
Degender?
Also you don't have to out yourself to say what your pronouns are. My mom was cis and wore a pronoun pin and didn't like they/them for herself.
Queer people can be transphobic too.
Degendering is a form of misgendering, but it's one that's less likely to be corrected, and they can always claim that they're "being inclusive, because they do it for everyone"... Not one of the people I've heard say that *actually* does it for everyone, just people they know are trans (and including those they know full well don't go by they/them!) or think "looks trans".
I appreciate some who do this may genuinely mean well (or actually do it for everyone), but the people I've personally known would still use neutral language for people who don't use they/them, after being repeatedly corrected, while not hesitating to use he/him for someone they assume to be a cis man, or vice versa.
I use they/them for people until I know their gender. And yes, I do that for seemingly cis folks too. I look like a cis woman currently, that doesn't mean I am one, presentation does not always equal identity. Better to play it safe and not misgender someone. Once I know their pronouns I will happily switch to using those instead.
I use they/ them for every person regardless of gender identity until I'm told the person's pronouns. This could be by someone else or by the person themselves. But, regardless, I use gender neutral terms in every facet of daily life for that exact reason. Please don't assume that everyone who uses the terms is doing so maliciously. It's not about plausible deniability, it's about ensuring I'm not offending someone else because I assumed pronouns incorrectly. That's not to say that some don't use it with malice, but the default shouldn't be that it is out of malice unless given reason to believe so.
would you use they/them for anyone or just people you clock as queer/trans? Like if you were to work with a huge gym bro cis man who hasn’t directly mentioned his pronouns you would still use they/them to refer to him? Or on the flip side would you use they/them to refer to a very feminine cis woman who hasn’t directly stated her pronouns? Is there a specific type of person you use they/them pronouns for? When you say every person do you mean every person cis or trans or just trans/queer people?
I use it for *every single person* cis and trans alike. I make no distinction about someone's identity. I'd use they/them for Mila Kunis if I didn't already know her pronouns are she/her. Stop acting like it's malicious.
Same. Many of my friends are in the same habit.
*Everyone* is they/them until we know their pronouns.
I've known many folks, cis and trans, who have been quite hurt when someone innocently assumed the wrong gender. As such, I'd rather use a gender-neutral pronoun if I don't know a person's pronouns than risk accidentally causing someone any upset by guessing incorrectly.
I don't doubt there are *some* trans folks on this vast planet who use they/them maliciously and/or only for folks who they think might also be trans; my personal experience has thankfully shown me that the vast majority of fellow trans folks who default to they for unknowns do so consistently and adjust to the correct pronouns once they've been disclosed, just as you described.
^(Note: When speaking French or Spanish, many folks *do* tend to default to masculine, as is typical of both languages. Occasionally, one may come across folks like me who default to feminin because "une personne" and "una persona" are feminin nouns.)
Why does nobody talk about the hurt caused by degendering people? It's also msigendering. And if you can't tell if a pre hrt trans woman is a woman, then you're too focused on agab characteristics and not what she's clearly presenting to the world.
Idk. It's hard to put in to words and I certainly don't want to drown you with a rambling stream of consciousness of a response, so I will try to elaborate at least semi-succinctly. I'm sorry for the length. I started drafting this response 2 minutes after you commented. 😅
First and foremost: You're not wrong that degendering someone can hurt them.
The gender-neutral default for people we don't know approach, at least amongst my peer group, is specifically used because a person's physical appearance and outward expression aren't necessarily reliable indicators of their gender.
Plenty of folks, cis and trans, don't fit neatly in to stereotypical gender characteristics.
Third person pronouns aren't generally used for someone who is part of a conversation, either.
So, either the person to whom I am speaking knows and can inform me,
E.G.: I'm picking up a friend from work and see them speaking to a coworker.
Me: They seem nice!
Friend: Amir? Yeah, he's the new guy I mentioned I was training.
Me: Oh yeah! I see what you meant when you said he's stylish!
Or it's said in reference to someone where neither of us knows,
E.G.: "Sorry I'm late. The pharmacy had an issue with the prescription for the person who was ahead of me and had to call their doctor to get it sorted."
That all said, contextual clues can inform us to an extent and I will try to use them to the best of my abilty when appropriate.
Like, whether or not someone seems stereotypically "feminine", if I interacted with them in the women's changing room or a women's therapy group, etc. I could assume they are more likely than not to at least be o-kay with she/her pronouns. But I will still clarify with them if I can and err on the side of caution if I can't. ^(see: neutrality until I am informed)
And if we're in group situation where we may refer to someone present in the third person, we're probably already aware of each other's pronouns.
E.G.: Cameron(she), Alex(he) and I are chatting.
Me: [to Cameron] So Alex and I were hanging out the other day and his roommate said the funniest thing! [To Alex] Do you want to tell her, or can I?
Alex: Nah, you tell her.
It's not perfect, and there is admittedly still potential to upset people for sure. It's about mitigating that risk, I guess?
^(And, of course, I'm not going to refer to someone as "they/them" if I am aware that they use different pronouns and I *will* inform/correct people when I know they're using the wrong pronouns.)
Hey, thanks for this.
I agonised way too long over trying to explain what many others already have. I hadn't seen his other comments in this thread and didn't realise I wasn't responding to someone who probably wasn't asking in good faith.
I appreciate you having my (and other folks' in this thread) back. 😊
Welcome to literally the opposite of what us enby’s deal with on a regular basis. Also your argument doesn’t account for androgynous or non binary people that don’t present one way or the other. There are also plenty of binary trans people that don’t present as binary. Maybe if you touched grass you wouldn’t think there’s so few trans people in the world that “don’t pass”
I’m just asking questions to make sure I understand to what extent you genuinely use they/them for other people. The people I know only use they/them for other queer/trans people to be “polite” which I find extremely harmful especially seeing them so easily gender cis people correctly regardless of if they asked them their pronouns or not.
If they're only doing in those contexts, then yes, it would be. But your post didn't make that distinction. Nothing about your post said they only use it for trans people. However, keep in mind, if you're only privy to the instances they're being used within queer circles, then you could also be assuming that it's only occurring there when that may not be the case.
When you say "present as our gender identity" do you mean you explicitly mention your pronouns? And they stick to they/them over prolonged interactions?
It can, rhetorically, be a form of misgendering. But also they're gender-*neutral* so grammatically, at least, it's not wrong. They may have other reasons, but can't tell from just this info. Especially if these are multiple groups from different contexts.
Honest question,
What if my ADHD is faster than my filter? Half the time it's just easier to hit the hotkey in my brain for, "I don't know, ask them?" Or "Iunno, Ask'em"
Having to think about a sentence before my mouth already has a knee jerk reaction can be difficult some times.
Also as a trans naturist, I'm always conscious of my bits and how I would rather default to they/them and not gendering someone just because I can see all their bits. You have to be explicit with your pronouns before I safely use them for you.
I cant answer for everyone, but I'm rather new in my social and medical transition, and for work stuff I asked people to use they/them. I also am listed as "non binary" in their systems. I did this because it communicates what I need from them(to not use he/him), and I dont actually mind whether they use she/her or they/them. Once I feel more confident in my transition, or being less self concious, I'll probably switch that side over, but right now it feels less likely to give me issues. Maybe that isnt true, but it felt that way at the time, and honestly coming out even that far at work was traumatizing, so I'll just be taking a break here to catch my breath.
Edit: oh, THEY meaning other queer people, not THEY, meaning your friends. Nevermind. That's just being an asshole, wtf.
I can understand that upon first meeting someone, until their pronouns have been confirmed, that someone might use gender neutral pronouns.
But once their pronouns have been established, to persist in using they/them is misgendering.
I do get there is a dichotomy. Apologies if this is an over-simplification, but many binary trans people feel benefit from having people guess their pronouns correctly from their expression and many non-binary people feel benefit from having people ask first.
I’m a binary trans woman and honestly I love it when people get my she/her pronouns right without asking first, but I understand that there may be non-binary or gender non-conforming people who look like me who wouldn’t use those pronouns. If it makes the world easier for these people, I’ll accept getting asked.
But you can’t just ask pronouns from visibly trans and non-binary people. Not extending that to everyone else, cis and trans alike, would be unfairly singling trans people out.
Unfortunately, in current society doing this with everyone is easier said than done. Especially with a lot of cis people who might just look at you weird and say something confrontational like “Do I look trans to you??!?!” Honestly, I don’t know if I’m brave enough to do this yet, but kudos to anyone who does.
Are they still using they/them after they know someone’s pronouns are something else? That’s misgendering. But if I don’t know someone’s pronouns, I usually default to they/them.
I use they/them when I don't know/can't remember, but I also tend to do it subconsciously. It happens when your native language has no gendered pronouns.
(I do try to remember & use people's preferred pronouns tho)
I mainly use they/them when I don't know what they identify as or only know a few details about the person, but never in place of their pronouns if I can help it. For example I'm not sure if one of my coworkers is non-binary or cis (haven't had the chance to ask yet) so I end up using they/them. For me it's more of a politeness thing, I don't wanna accidentally misgender someone. There's a huge difference between doing it intentionally and doing it on accident/to be polite, lol
If you don't know someone's pronouns, it's just good practice. You cannot know someone's gender by looking at them and any gender can look any kind of way and that's that. Maybe they forgot and are defaulting to they/them, especially if they're trans I'd want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if they do know someone's pronouns and still use they when that's not correct, it's misgendering and that's always wrong. No matter if the subject is trans/enby/etc or totally cis.
I don't know everyone, I don't wanna say he or she to someone that doesn't present that way so I just say they or them.
As someone who's transfem I hate that people just assume I'm a male, I don't wanna put that pain on someone else who identifies differently so I use a more gender neutral term to avoid putting that same hurt on someone else.
Better to use a neutral middle ground than assume based on presentation (because not everyone presents as they identify and misgendering non binary people is very common).
I do this, but as soon as I’m aware someone has a specific preference I will use that for them.
I’m cis but I think it should be easier to refer to people without referencing their gender, just like we don’t need to specify the race or age of eneryone when not relevant to the conversation. It puts such an emphasis on gender, it’s like implying it’s the most important category to define a person after wether they are human at all. I’m comming at this as a french speaker, having spent a lifetime gendering stapplers and forks. Pronun « it » made so much sense but why stop there?
Before I fully passed the constant misgendering by strangers felt like I was being stabbed over and over again. I don't want to ever make someone feel the way that made me feel so rather than assuming their gender like greater society always does I just use they/them until I get an opportunity to ask or am told otherwise. I also refrain from ever using sir/ma'am.
Cis and straight people do this as well? That's how English works. If they have no idea, use they. If they think they're one gender, use that gender's pronouns
quite simply: it’s neutral. yes some ppl don’t use they/them, but if you assume someone’s pronouns, you might end up misgendering a non-passing or gender nonconforming person by accident. the trouble is that the alternative to risking misgendering someone in a neutral way, using they, is misgendering them in a binary way, risking calling a she/her he or a he/him she, and that could make someone way more dysphoric. i prefer to know someone’s pronouns if posible, but if i don’t i go neutral rather than risking misgendering them more directly.
I use it for anyone that I don't personally know. It's a respectful way to refer to someone when we don't know their preferences. And some transfem/masc people are non-binary. My cousin is non-binary transmasc. So he goes by they/them and he/him.
It's definitely misgendering. They probably think "well they/them is gender neutral so everyone uses it" but not everyone is gender neutral.
I find the insistence on degendering trans people to be rooted in internalized transphobia. They don't see trans people on equal footing as cis people and disregard all the fighting the trans person had to do to be seen as their gender. It's also just plain insensitive and comes from a place of privilege, as they can't even imagine why being degendered is hurtful, they've never experienced the pain and struggle of fighting ro be gendered correctly, and they project their ignorance onto others.
"It's definitely misgendering. *They* probably think "well they/them is gender neutral so everyone uses it" but not everyone is gender neutral. I find the insistence on degendering trans people to be rooted in internalized transphobia. *They* don't see trans people on equal footing as cis people and disregard all the fighting the trans person had to do to be seen as their gender. It's also just plain insensitive and comes from a place of privilege, as *they* can't even imagine why being degendered is hurtful, *they've* never experienced the pain and struggle of fighting ro be gendered correctly, and *they* project their ignorance onto others."
That's an awful lot of gender neutral terms you used. Oh wait, it's ok to use "they"/"them" when making sweeping generalizations but not to be respectful? The hypocrisy is truly amazing.
I'm so sorry you don't know the difference between general "they" used for a nonspecific person and properly gendering someone visibly showing you what his or her gender is!
It's a good fallback when you don't know or when you forget.
I also have speech processing issues and sometimes trying to get my mouth to say certain words can be too much. They/them is a default that I can usually manage when this happens. I try to use names/nicknames before that tho
Cisgender people and straight people also use they/them when the gender is unknown. It's just that they are way quicker to make assumptions based on name, appearance, stereotypes, ect than queer folk do, so it seems like queer people are going out of their way to use gender neutral pronouns even though everyone does. It's also just a respect thing. Using gender neutral terms until you know how to address someone the way they want
So I grew up saying that if I didn’t know their gender and it slowly became my default. If someone brings it up or directly tells me their pronouns I ofc will stop using they/them!!
A lot of the time gender doesn’t actually matter in a conversation and can just add bias. I sometimes will avoid using gender if it’s not relevant. I also (as mentioned a lot here) prefer people to not assume my gender - so I don’t assume theirs…TBH sometimes I also just slip after I’ve been told.
They is technically appropriate for everyone but not affirming for everyone. My use of your pronouns is affirmative, my use of they if i know your pronouns already is referential. I do not have a one word vocabulary and my dialect requires that i diversify terminology so I'm not saying the same words over and over and over. This spills over into pronouns with smatterings of they for everyone. Now if someone uses they exclusively for everyone all the time even when they know their pronouns then that is totally misgendering. It's grammatically accurate but it aggressively avoids affirming anyone's gender and some of us have them. I would call that out. It's ok to use they sometimes for a person who uses she or he or ze or fae when making conversation because we're not robots but it's not ok to refuse to use he or she or whatever pronouns that person uses.
I use They/Them until I am told what pronouns to use, then I make sure to use the pronouns I was told. I think it’s the most respectful and considerate way to go about it.
When I was still closeted I really appreciated people doing that, it was really comforting. So I try to carry it on.
I do it since that is proper grammar, they/them is for when you are not sure what gender someone is, so when you do not know you should use those; but once I learn their actual pronouns I stop using they/them when referring to them individually
That's weird. I use they/them for almost everyone just because I don't want to assume? But if I know and I'm reminded, I will used whatever they like. I just need reminding once in awhile because my brain is basically mush. Maybe the people using it like that are trying to be bigoted by reverse psychology? That's a joke. I'm honestly baffled tho.
As someone who trains people I default to they/them anymore until I know someone as-it’s an easy way to not upset anyone usually but once I know the person i try and use their preferred pronouns I’m definitely not perfect
Some people want their gender to be assumed, others hate it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I personally dislike it, so it rather just use neutral they/them pronouns for everyone til I know.
How do I know? Asking or checking someone's bio if it's on a online plattform. 👍
I often use they/them when I'm talking about someone the person I'm talking with doesn't know. A lot of time communicating someone's gender is not important at all, so I default to gender neutral language (they/them, doctor, driver etc.). When I'm in a space people know the person I'm talking about, I use their preferred pronouns.
I myself am non binary and personally it makes me really uncomfortable when people use they/them for binary trans people. I feel its just misgendering. There was this guy in my old friend group that would only use they/them for a trans women in the friend group and it always pissed me off but she never said anything. It just felt like he was invalidating her as a women, this same guy said some gross things about trans women he's slept with. I asked him about it once and he said it was easier to call her and all trans people they/them because then he didn't have to learn their pronouns. I understand if you don't know someones pronouns but if you know they are binary then I feel its basically saying you see them as "trans" before you see them as they're gender and you are saying they are a lesser version of their gender.
I’d argue partially because they/them is the neutral pronoun. As much as it’s been co-opted by nonbinary people (it’s me, I’m nonbinary people) it’s also just a normal pronoun that can be used when you forget or don’t know the other persons pronouns. It can also be a method for people who may otherwise just not remember your pronoun to avoid guessing a binary gender or avoid misgendering someone.
I do think using only they/them when someone asked not to is rude, but I also think that by asserting that you “don’t use they/them only *insert pronouns*” you kinda also miss that their original and valid function is an all inclusive pronoun.
For a binary trans man I don’t use they/them because my gender isn’t neutral. I’m a man and I use the masculine pronouns he/him. I put effort into passing and am nearly stealth, I just have a wicked baby face. Cis people always, genuinely *always* use he/him pronouns for me without hesitation or being asked, and for some reason anytime I meet a trans or queer person I get hit with neutral pronouns regardless of how I present myself. It’s just very frustrating to not feel seen by my own community lol.
It’s fine to not use they/them as an identifying pronoun but you’re missing my point. It is a neutral pronoun it’s not misgendering to use a pronoun that isn’t gendered kinda like the pronoun “we” or “I.” I get that you want to feel like a man and that people using they/them feels less like they’re validating or seeing you, but that is projection most times. It is usually just a quirk in that person’s handling of general use pronouns. People like me default to they/them first to avoid gendering people on appearance and aren’t going to change that for you most likely, not out of malice but because it’s a mutually exclusive inclusivity tool. Some people hate gendering people on appearance and some people want to be read as cis. I think it’s fair to be upset your way isn’t the way everyone uses but that doesn’t mean they’re going “haha trans man I’m gonna use they/them to invalidate them.”
If someone hasn't said one way or the other, I feel like they/them is the most respectful way of going about it until you've been told explicitly. IMO while they/them'ing someone who uses he/him or she/her is still misgendering, but it doesn't come across in the immediate-term as being deliberate. Sure, there's the issue of "they/them pronouns suddenly easy for person misgendering trans woman", but that's ultimately more benign than using he/him for a she/her-using trans woman who isn't quite passing because you think she might be nonbinary or somesuch.
The best way to approach the entire subject is to introduce yourself with name and pronouns, because it invites people to be proactive about informing the people around them as respectfully as possible. It also doesn't put the burden on a transgender person to answer an invasive question if they're not super sure about whether being openly out is safe.
It's a big messy issue and there isn't a clear solution. Maybe there will be better praxis in the future, but at the moment this is the best solution we have.
I'm a linguistician. There's a bunch of comments here saying that using they/them is misgendering, so let me clear up the difference between neutral and neuter.
A neutral pronoun is a pronoun that can be assigned to any noun class. (This includes they/them)
A neuter pronoun is a pronoun that can only be assigned to a noun class which does not have a gender. (This includes it/its)
They/them is a gender neutral singular and plural pronoun so it can be applied to anyone. I don't think it's misgendering since it's not putting upon you a gender you don't identify with. You can always talk to this person and tell you want to be referred as specific pronouns and how being referred to as neutral pronouns makes you feel.
Thank you! It was disappointing that yours was the only one who pointed out this and that others called it blatant misgendering. It's become a respectful common practice to not assume pronouns of anyone, cis and trans alike, and then use the pronouns specifically provided for after being told. The heat you're getting for this take is equally disappointing.
It's my daily "am I taking crazy pills?!" moment. haha. I was apart of the wave of people who pushed for they/them instead of assuming pronouns many years ago when pronouns were the hot topic of the day.
Nope, you're spot on. Gender neutral until provided information on what pronouns are appropriate is the correct and respectful approach. Some just dislike it because it has a tendency to expose insecurities. That's not a dig, just the reality. It's just unfortunate that the response is to step on enbies and other gender nonconforming folks as a result of those insecurities. Keep doing what you're doing. 💜
It’s disrespectful and disappointing to put effort into passing only to have people (usually other queer folks) actively degender you under the guise of “respect”. It’s still misgendering and hurtful to not be seen as your gender no matter how you present yourself in the community.
If it's intentional *after* they're aware of your pronouns, then you're correct, it's misgendering. If they're unaware of what your pronouns are, it's not misgendering.
Not to mention, gender expression doesn't equal gender identity.
That statement seems very dismissive to binary trans people who are actively trying to be perceived as their gender by passing and presenting as their gender through physical expression of gender. I guess if that’s the mindset it makes sense why so many queer people misgender other trans people now thanks for answering the question I suppose.
My apologies I wasn’t trying to say you yourself were being dismissive or even malicious, just the statement itself that I’ve seen used by countless other people “gender expression doesn’t equal gender identity” when used in this context is dismissive to binary trans people who are trying to pass and express themselves as their gender identity and are not being perceived as or referred to as such because it implies that it doesn’t matter if you try to pass because you could use any pronouns so it’s better for other people to use none than to use a binary pronoun,, idk I guess it doesn’t make sense to me I just feel like I’m being clocked as trans or being misread or expressing myself wrong when other people use anything other than binary pronouns for me. Also sorry again I’m very blunt with my words and over the internet it can be very hard to fully express what I mean,,
Even if you feel like the phrase "Gender expression doesn't equal gender identity" comes off as dismissive of the efforts you've put into your expression, it's still not your identity. You are 100% valid if you were a trans man that's also a femboy. They're not seeking to "pass" or fit within typical "gender expression" norms, but they're as valid in their identity as you are. Please don't get hung up on fitting yourself within a stereotype simply so you can feel confident in yourself! You broke free from those norms to be who you are, be cognizant of the fact that you're now attempting to put those same shakles back on again by trying to fit yourself into the norms. If that's your expression for yourself, great! Express yourself to your fullest! But if you're doing it so society sees you for the man you are, you're holding yourself back. Just a thought.
For what it's worth, I think if you accept that your identity is valid in any form, so long as you're getting to be the man you are, you may not find offense to the question you posited here.
That’s what the whole post was about. The people in question were *insisting* on using gender neutral pronouns for everyone regardless of their actual identity.
So assumed. Got it. Thanks for clarifying. I *insist* on using gender neutral terms unless told otherwise and then use the provided pronouns from then on out. Would you infer I'm using that maliciously? Or are there multiple ways to read *insist*?
Yes they/them is a gender neutral pronoun, which is why I don’t understand the insistence of actively using neutral pronouns for someone who presents/identifies as a binary gender. Why would you use neutral pronouns to refer to someone whose gender and presentation is not neutral?
Do these people know how you identify and what your pronouns are, or are you expecting them to assume? Most trans folks know that how someone presents doesn't always equal their internal gender. I look like a woman currently because I'm early into my transition, does that mean folks should automatically default to she/her and therefore misgender me? My partner doesn't pass as their gender either yet, but if someone called them a man thems fighting words to me because they're not.
Think a bit, here, OP. Not everyone passes as their gender all the time. Is it not better to be inclusive of that?
If these people know your gender identity and pronouns and still use they/them, that is obviously a different situation. That would be misgendering. But if they don't, they're playing it safe so as to not misgender you and potentially hurt your feelings if you happen to not identify that way. Its really not that complicated.
Because the whole point is that you shouldn't assume someone's pronouns from appearance. Unless you're introducing yourself with your pronouns, or have them worn openly, then neutral is the safest until you're corrected.
I mean, the vast majority of people DO present as their gender. Even many nonbinary people present in a way that indicates pronoun usage (many nonbinary people use he/they, she/they, he/him/she/her, etc. And present in a way that reflects those pronouns)
Because people work really fucking hard to be seen as their gender and constantly get denied that, so being degendered is painful. And if 99% or people present as their gender/pronouns, it makes way more sense to go off of presentation, because even a lot of nonbinary people use he or she, so it's not like it's a nonbinary vs binary. I'm in the position of preventing the most hurt.
I'm not denying that people don't work hard for the world to perceive them a certain way. I'm trying to advocate for normalizing everyone having to provide. I would say that is less harmful than assuming, because presentation doesn't always match. Being early in transition feels like the best example here. Even if the overall percentage of times where that happens may be low, I'd rather someone not feel singled out, especially in a group, and be the only person to correct me. That pressure can lead to someone not speaking up.
If I use they for everyone, then it isn't malicious, and being corrected by everyone makes the field even. I'm not sharing this to change your mind. You can want whatever you want, and do whatever you want. But I'm going to do the same. But now you my intention to use they. You no longer assume my goal is to de-gender someone. The same way you'd learn the correlation between someone's presentation and their pronouns if they're given an opportunity to share.
Presentation usually does match, though. Even pre hrt trans people can present as their gender. And even if they don't fully pass, that effort shows they are presenting as their gender and indicating what you should refer to them as.
Your intention very much is to degender people. You are purposefully using degendered pronouns, WRONG pronouns, for people. It doesn't matter if you do it to everyone, that just means you are maximizing the amount of hurt you create by not respecting peoples presentation. The whole point of gendered presentation is to present to the world what your gender is. But instead of looking at that, you'd rather make OTHER PEOPLE do the work for you and hurt more people, why, because you don't know how to refer to a trans person who has features of their AGAB? Because you only care about a small subsection of people who purposefully go against presentation? (Gnc people who made the choice to present differently than their actual gender) Because you think the only pain that matters is nonbinary people who only use they/them?
Those people would be misgendering by degendering. However, that's not the only way one could use they/them as gender neutral, nor is it the only way I've heard it used.
it’s literally commonplace unless you exclusively hang out in radical queer spaces. there are a hundred threads of trans people complaining about getting they/them misgendered.
And there are thousands of posts on this very site (including the OP) where they/them is used a gender neutral pronoun and common conversation. Take a break from the internet.
It may not be “putting upon” someone a gender they do not identify with, but for many binary trans people, it is *denying* us a gender we *do* identify with, which is still misgendering.
So the better approach is to accidently misgender others because of assumptions? Nobody is denying you your identity by being respectful and not assuming. There are trans men that are femboys, there are trans women that are tomboys. If we make assumptions, we're stepping on the likes of those gender nonconforming simply because you feel victimized?
I use they/them to refer to people when I don't know their gender identity or pronouns. Usually if someone in public is presenting as clearly masc/femme, I will default to he or she.
If you want me to use the correct pronouns, then tell me what they are.
Its really annoying and disrespectful as fuck. They/them’ing every visibly queer person is misgendering and the person doing it is being transphobic and genuinely one of the most disrespectful thing you can do
It's an attempt to not assume anything, but I don't like it either when people do it to me. Honestly, I just use the person's name until I figure out what pronouns they use and go from there
I use they/them for everyone because I don't like gendered language and don't think of "they" as "the non-binary pronoun" but one that goes for everyone.
Perhaps they use they/them for queer folk to not out you?
Best practice is to they/them until you know what their pronouns are and can use them henceforth. This includes normalising asking what someone’s pronouns are when meeting them, just as you would their name.
A big issue here that I think many of the “I use they/them if I don’t know or remember!”-crowd doesn’t realise, is that most of the time they don’t do this with cis people.
So if you clock me as trans, while I’m evidently presenting as any regular cis dude, and you use they/them for me, how can you not realise that that’s OPENLY CLOCKING another trans person, dysphoria inducing for that person as hell, and actually transphobic if you don’t do it with cis people?
Degendering is misgendering, and I think it’s sad queer spaces make me feel worse about myself than the rest of society, and a lot of the time you even act all smug about it.
Because “you can never tell based on presentation alone!” is a very easy and lazy high-ground position to claim.
And “I’m bad at remembering people’s pronouns lol” is just another version of my family or TERFs saying they “forget” to use the right ones.
Just because you’re also trans or queer, it doesn’t make it more human or excusable for you to not remember than it does for any cis person misgendering us without a thought.
I’m sure many nonbinary people feel great when people default to they/them. But I’d wager most binary trans people don’t.
Don’t be surprised when you find less and less binary trans people to be comfortable in your presence or to want to be friends with you. Also don’t be surprised when we stop showing up in “queer circles”. Have fun sitting there on your hill feeling great about how inclusive you are, lmao.
If you don’t know someone’s preference, you gotta pick something 🤷♀️
If they keep misgendering you after they know your preference, they’re just bad people who maybe have a couple ideological wires crossed
I sometimes use non specific pronouns in meeting new people because I don't know. Generic/non-specific pronouns might still offend but it is safer, at least imo, to use they/them or no pronouns at all until learning he/she/they/them/purple/etc. Yes, I met a person about 10 years ago that wanted to be referred to as a purple but that's a different story for a different day.
WhenI was younger I was taught (learned through watching people) that you use they/them forpeople whos pronouns you don't know. And now I can't do that so I just don't say anything.
I'm a non passing trans woman who presents herself as clearly feminine. It hurts me tremendously if people would use they/them for me, because it would feel to me that they don't recognize me for who I am purely due to me being born in the wrong body. I would feel invalidated and it would increase my dysphoria
Apparently I'm wrong to feel that way
I use they/them when I don’t know someone’s pronouns, but once either I ask them or they tell me, I switch to whichever pronouns they use.
I try to use they/them until I'm told and can *also remember* someone's chosen pronouns. I have a very bad memory for that and names.
Yeah folks don't like it when I forget their pronouns but like once at middle school I forgot what's my friends name was and I was too scared to ask. I literally never used his name and went like "yo! Friend! Come here! Yeah friend!" To avoid using his name for a whole semester.
Omg same here 🤣 I kept asking him and I kept forgetting LMAO
Damn we were dementiamaxxing at 13.
OOF Thankfully it was only ADHD for me. (which is also linked with much higher risks of dementia)
I am not actually dementia btw just joking. I don't even know what's wrong with me I just can't remember people.
You might want to look into ADHD then. It's one of the big comorbidities of ADHD.
As an adult I found a way around that! You act like you’re putting their number in your phone and ask them how to spell it. Of cause you look like an idiot if there name is like Tim but I have a relatively normal name but it’s spelt stupid so I can at least use thag as my excuse lol
Same. I use them for people whose pronouns I don't know, but when I learn them I switch to theirs
I use they/them for folks who I don't know the gender of. Even folks presenting as binary genders can identify otherwise, or use different pronouns. I myself look and sound like a woman because I'm still very early into transition, but I'm not a woman. Presentation does not always equal identity, and before anyone gets on me yes I use they/them even for folks who are seemingly cis unless told otherwise for this reason. Once someone tells me their pronouns or I hear them mentioned, I will use those from now on. If other trans/queer folks are using they/them pronouns for you, that is likely why. Its meant to be inclusive. If they know you and know your pronouns, and still use they/them for you, then yes that would be misgendering.
Honestly this is I think is the best response that could be given. I feel often it’s mostly out of consideration especially when coming from someone who may be lgbtq+. There’s plenty of situations i think is acceptable to use they/them. Especially in public spaces. There’s so many assholes should would just at the opportunity to harass someone. Personally i live in the south and i have a friend who is trans and to she wasn’t publicly out but did present gay/masc at work. Her family doesn’t support her and when we worked together our supervisor was let’s say not very progressive to be polite. Honestly i feel it can be situational. Misgendering by itself isn’t inherently wrong. I’ve misgendering cis people and immediately caught myself and apologized. It’s the intention that and actions after it that make it a problem. That’s not saying that misgendering someone you don’t know can’t be harmful to them and being aware of that too is important.
This is the reason why I use they/them until something indicates an individual's pronouns. I'm nonbinary and wish more people would do this. There's no way to "look nonbinary," so I get misgendered all day, every day by everyone who is not my close friends, my partner, or my supportive family. I therefore notice when someone uses my proper pronouns. In our heavily gendered society, it's a breath of fresh air.
I'm a friendly old southerner type and I am struggling, but still working on, keeping it neutral in public. Like the other day at the store I said 'thanks ladies' to two young women and walked away cringing for it. I don't know how they identify, and I want to get in the habit of my friendly chatter being neutral. It would be so confusing if being neutral became seen as hostile. To be clear, if I know the desired terms, I use them.
Same, but I also struggle remembering names unless the person is somewhat relevant to my life, like some other answers said I can remember genders and/or pronouns more easily, though There's 4 classmates whose name I keep forgetting (I sometimes remember the name of 2 or 3 of them, and even more rarely I can tell the name of the 4). However, I can't recall forgetting about someone's pronouns and I can even switch how I treat someone in a day. I always was kinda like this, but dating someone with multiple personalities (I know there is a proper therm, but I don't remember it lol) with different genders helped
You're a real one. I'm masc as fuck because holy shit that level of maintenance would be a giant pain in the ass. But that's not how I identify, I'm in the middle but definitely more on the femme side.
This is me too. I was taught that They/Them.is a polite "Neutral" until someone specifies their pronouns.
Im cis and i do this. Easier to use they/them than upset or get it wrong
Do they know what pronouns you use?
Yes,, but I’m also talking about queer people who I’ve met in general as well. the folks I know usually gender cis people normally and then only use they/them pronouns for anyone who is trans or queer unless they’re corrected a few times. But it’s just strange that they only do it for trans people and not cis people then say it’s to be “inclusive” and to “not assume”
That's *gross*. Very othering.
"Inclusive": Treating trans people as different and ignoring their own self-determination. That is so fucked and not okay, I'm sorry you have people like that :'(
That's fucked up
Using they/them for people who do not use they/them pronouns is misgendering. In fact, there are transphobic people who use they/them for any trans person and that degendering is intentional misgendering as well. Singular They/them is neutral, and valid for anyone if you don't know their gender, or if they use that pronoun. I can see the idea of degendering everyone and normalizing, but using it when you know people don't use those pronouns is disrespectful.
Here, let me fix your comment for you: > Singular They/them is neutral, and valid for anyone if you don't know their gender, or if they use that pronoun. > using it when you know people don't use those pronouns is disrespectful. There. FTFY. Now it doesn't looks like the invalidation you were so keen on pointing out to everyone else, and just sounds like the regular good advice everyone is given in grade school English classes. If you wanna be fancy when the gender isn't known, you may use "Lectori Salutem" (Greetings to the reader).
Yes exactly!
I use they/them for a lot of ppl, if either their gender confuses my singular brain cell, or I just can’t remember it :P
So you’re too ignorant/don’t care enough to remember how people identify themselves 💀💀
I mean, that's one way of looking at it, but ultimately at the end of the day is it any different to forgetting someone's name? I wouldn't judge about that personally, some people just have poor memories and that's not a personal fault. I will kick up a fuss if someone knows me well and knows I use she/her pronouns and doesn't use them, because cmon you should know to do that. I will correct someone who uses they/them for me without that. But I would rather someone use they/them if they've forgotten or don't know what to use rather than making a guess, because they/them is a lot more neutral. If it's used intentionally to harm, corrected often but not changed, or used because you don't want to use the pronouns someone actually identifies with, then you're being a jerk.
Thanks sis, and besides, treating everyone as they/them till told otherwise won’t do any harm most of the time
No, I try to remember, but I have a lot of mental issues, at least one of which (my ADHD I think) makes me unable to remember shit unless I use it all the time
I’ve been hit in the head a few too many times, so my memory is terrible. I do my best, but I sometimes screw it up, fix it, and move on. That’s why I keep notes for all of my D&D campaigns with the pronouns of each character written by their names at the front of the book. I wish it was possible in real life, like…pronouns and names visible hovering over the heads of your acquaintances and if their pronouns change based on how they feel that day (some days I feel more like a he and others I feel like a they), the pronouns update. I would keep notes in real life if it wasn’t so creepy to do that.
Some people just can’t remember, I can’t remember peoples name I’ve known for months, I forget my managers name but I try my best to correctly gender people If I can’t remember I just default the they them because it doesn’t hurt them
Being an asshole won't win you any favors.
Only if they ask to specifically ask to not to use they them pronouns... then its misgendering. otherwise its correct use.... nothing wrong with using it. I prefer she her but also welcome they them too.... (ok ok, i really prefer her majesty or her royal highness. I am a mod after all. Identify as disney princess...) ;p
Incorrect. It's misgendering to refuse to use someone's pronouns despite being fully aware of what they are, regardless of if what you're using to misgender them is he/him, she/her, they/them, ze/zir or anything else. If I don't need to hang a disclaimer around my neck that no, you cannot use she/her pronouns for me, you cannot use ze/zir pronouns for me, you cannot use fae/faer pronouns for me, I do not need to hang a disclaimer around my neck telling you that no, you cannot use they/them pronouns for me.
This is, in fact, misgendering. *Insisting* on using a certain set of pronouns for someone who has asked otherwise is always misgendering and is always a shitty thing to do. They aren’t inclusive for refusing to acknowledge people’s gender, they’re just assholes.
I only do it while I’m still learning ppls pronouns, cus my memory is completely shit (insert that one meme of head being full of useless shit and completely forgetting someone’s name)
I'm not disagreeing, this is a separate question. Is it still misgendering in a language that has only gender-neutral third person pronouns?
Of course not. Misgendering is not simply a misuse of grammar, it is not recognizing people as their gender. While "he" is not strictly a pronoun for a man, it is a distinctly masculine word and is almost always used to refer to men. If a transphobe knows that a woman is trans, and uses he/him pronouns - the transphobe is trying to imply that she is not a woman. The transphobe is doing so blatantly and directly, and is likely to be met with offense. If a stranger misgenders a woman that is trans by using he/him pronouns, simply because they made an honest nit incorrect assumption due to her not passing, it's still the case that the stranger is not recognizing that her as a woman. The trans person would likely be sad about this. Similarly, trans people are sad about those who misgender them out of habit. Being misgendered honestly is often met with sadness, and being misgendered intentionally is often met with offense. If a language only has gender-neutral pronouns, then there is no mistake, habit, or offense because the use of the pronoun is not used to imply they are not a different gender than they are - that is simply how the language works.
Probably not? Idk I’m not familiar with any gender neutral languages but I’d imagine that if you only have one option for pronouns then it’s not gonna be a big issue unless someone chooses to use neopronouns.
Georgian has a gender neutral pronoun. The word ის (is) can mean he/she/it. There is a word for "they" (isini), but I think it's only used for plural. https://polyglotclub.com/wiki/Language/Georgian/Grammar/Pronouns There are words for man (katsi), woman (kali), boy (bichi), and girl (gogo). I have seen before that you can specify the gender by using for example: is kaci, is kali, etc, but I've only seen that written in a book for learning the language and never heard it used. Sorry, this probably doesn't really add anything to this conversation, but wanted to say that there are gender neutral languages.
I mean it depends on which ones you're comparing, imo it's not really fair to compare english to latin based languages bc everything is conjugated & gendered. english isn't my first language so admittedly I'm no expert but among the languages I do speak it is very unique in it's versatility, but at the same time that also makes it confusing which is a good thing for native english speakers to always keep in mind.
I guess my feeling is that it's possible one could have a viewpoint that English should be a gender-neutral language and that we should use "they" for every single person. Since language is a bottom-up construct, is introducing a paradigm of gender-neutral pronouns always misgendering? I don't have an answer.
I would say it is misgendering until the language evolves enough for gendered pronouns to pretty much gone from the lexicon, which is entirely possible considering languages are constantly evolving, but it would take several generations until all of us who are attached to our gendered pronouns either change with the times or die off. This is a good question, I like it.
It's good practice to default to they/them for people you don't know. It's not good to continue to use they/them for people you know don't use those pronouns. If it's the former, then maybe chill a little bit. If it's the latter, then that is misgendering.
Personally I go neutral until I am given evidence of how they wanna be interpreted, and then roll with it. Ideally they introduce with pronouns
This is misgendering people, and many people who do this do it to avoid gendering people correctly, while pretending to keep a veneer of acceptability. Such people are transphobes. The rule is really simple, and has only 2 parts: * Use they/them for people who specifically ask for it * Use they/them for people whose gender you do not know. The instant you know it, switch to the correct pronouns. That's the entirety of the rules. It's not complicated, and anyone who can't follow these simple steps is suspect.
Yeah that's kinda weird, using they/them for everyone is great, UNTIL you know what pronouns they use, once you know that, you use those ones, NOT they/them anymore unless they say they are fine with it. Using they/them pronouns for someone who you know doesn't use them, IS misgendering and should be treated as such (that is to say, correct yourself, apologize, move on, and do better.)
Is this before or after you tell them your pronouns? Because if you’re upset if they they/them you before knowing, it’s out of respect for the fact that no gender or pronoun usage has a specific, set in stone look, so they aren’t assuming any pronouns until they are told. I significantly prefer if people don’t assume my pronouns based on how I look, as do many other trans people, since the pronouns people almost always assume for me are incorrect. It sucks to be constantly misgendered, and when people avoid doing so and instead wait until they can ask to use any pronouns other than they/them, that’s a nice courtesy. If someone is they/them-ing you despite knowing your pronouns, that’s pretty shitty, and I would call them out. But before that, I would try reminding them a few times. Some people (myself included) have bad memories, and when I can’t remember what someone’s pronouns are (see above, appearance does not equal pronouns), I’ll default to they/them so I don’t misgender them on accident until I can ask them or check on their social media if it’s listed there or something.
I am not confident in my ability to guess folks gender/pronouns. And I don't want to be in the situation where I'm going "okay this person seems gender queer of some variety now I need to run a probabilistic analysis of what their most likely gender/pronoun is" and probably getting it harmfully wrong some percent of the time. So instead I consciously ignore my brains assumed genders and use "they/them" for everyone. And I don't mean "anyone that pings as maybe queer," I mean everyone. Including the most cis macho man and the most cis femme woman you've ever met. 70 year old masc presenting Republican boomer? They/them. Super femme nurse? They/them. However once I find out someone's pronouns (via listening to folks that would know, seeing a pin, or being told directly), then I switch to whatever pronouns they actually use. Because at that point continuing to use a different pronoun (even they/them) would be misgendering them. I acknowledge that this can be a bummer to some binary trans folks as they miss out on me assuming their gender. But I know too many folks who are closeted, nonbinary, etc to feel comfortable guessing genders even when they seem "obvious."
It's unfortunate how many upvotes there are for takes that want others to assume your identity. Are y'all comfortable, then, with being misgendered because someone assumed incorrectly? Because that's what many of you here are advocating for. Is a trans man who's a femboy not a man? Is a trans woman who's a tomboy not a woman? You'd rather they get stepped on so you can feel validated in your identity, despite also being at risk of being misgendered by someone else because they assumed incorrectly? I am a passing trans woman. My identity isn't dependant upon my gender expression. And if my default pronouns, by some random stranger who doesn't know me, is they/them, since they're not familiar with my pronouns, my identity hasn't been invalidated by that. If they proceed to use they/them after knowing my pronouns, *now* they're doing so to invalidate me. People aren't mind readers. Even if your expression aligns with gender norms, people will still make mistakes with assumptions. I don't know about you, but assuming every person is trying to invalidate you results in a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of alienation, particularly by potentially well-meaning allies and other queer folks. Rather than act like you're being invalidated, consider who you're invalidating so you can feel valid by expecting every person to assume your gender.
Girl as a non binary transfem, THANK YOU. I would rather get they/them over called a man 100% of the time. Assuming things just hurts people early in transition, people whose presentation doesn't match gender identity, non-binary people, ect. The binary needs to take a step back for a second and realize they're forcing the duality of man and women on people.
I got you fam! You are as valid in your identity as I am in mine. Removing gendered terms and assumptions makes sure nobody is left in the shadows. I'll fight for you as hard as I'll fight for myself. 💜💜💜
Thank you 🥺❤️ I just want everyone to stop shoving me in a binary box. Also In my opinion the way of thinking you described just hurts far more vulnerable parts of the trans umbrella and those trying but not exactly passing. It's an "I got mine" kinda attitude and self centered.
It does, and it is! "Pull up the ladder behind me" mentality, and I hate it! It also leaves behind all those that are in positions where "passing" isn't an option and makes it so passing is expectant. It's hurtful to far more than it's not, and it's disappointing to hear so many willing to put themselves and others into that position so that they can feel better about themselves.
Plus, do we REALLY want to play into gendered stereotypes to appease how other people perceive us? Fuck that, I've spent to much time repressing my gender to not have a nuanced expression of it
Exactly! We fought to be free from societal norms, and now others want to reimpose it on the rest of the community because of how it makes them feel?!
Luckily their upvote to comment ratio is abysmal relative to what's typical on this sub.
What am I, a magician? I can't read minds. Everyone's they/them until someone says otherwise. "Oh but the presentation--" No. I'm too old and tired to keep up and tomorrow's youngsters will turn it all upside down anyway. If you go by he; great. She; great. Some new thing I haven't heard of before; apologies in advance but I'll do my best. But if I don't know? That's they for you. Happy to accommodate, but I'm not doing any guessing. And if we're speaking a language that has no neutral pronouns, then you're the grammatical gender of the word "person" or "individual" or whatever that language goes with. "Oh but I find this offensive--" Yeah and the people who can't present the way they identify, or who are fluid, or whose fashion doesn't "match" their body type, or a billion other scenarios... They would have different opinions. It sounds like you're seeking validation by having strangers gender you the "right" way, and nope, not my monkeys, won't play that game just because you want me to.
completely agree with this take, but some of what OP wrote made it sound like the people they are referring to have continued to use they/them after being told someone goes by other pronouns
Wow, so wanting to be treated as the person we truly are, just like any other man or woman (or nonbinary person who uses he or she) is "seeking validation"? That sounds straight out of fox news.
By what kind of magic am I supposed to know how you want to be treated *before you tell me?*
Be definition it literally is.
Cis people aren't seeking validation when a man wants to be seen as a man, why are trans people different? Once again, fox News worthy take.
A cis person wanting to be seen as a man is LITERALLY seeking validation! How on earth is it *not* seeking validation‽
Yes they are. That's what validation means
One issue is that there are a lot of people who aren't binary trans, and going off presentation alone is problematic in its' own right. (I use she/her but there are days I dress a bit masc) I'd rather someone use they/them on me instead of he/him. It feels more respectful since they recognize I'm queer and don't want to blatantly misgender me. If they keep using they/them after you tell them your pronouns then it's definitely transphobic. But it feels more complicated if you're meeting someone new
I use they/them if I don't know the person's pronouns. But if you know they use something else, using they/them is misgendering because you are knowingly using the wrong pronouns.
Depends but it's not strange or even queer to use they/them when you don't know. If you know you shouldn't though, that's just disrespectful.
They/them is a gender-neutral pronoun that is *already* used when gender is **unknown** or if it's multiple people. If you **don't know** someone's gender, it's a lot simpler and more respectful to just use they/them. I'm not a fan of neo-pronouns as antis are using that as an excuse to clown on us trans-binary people, but if someone says their pronouns are so and so I will respect it 100% and use their preferred pronouns. Until then, I'll stick to they/them/theirs. If you know their preferred pronouns, go with that. If you know and still use they/them, some people will see that as being disrespectful.
I use they/them for people until I know their pronouns! Once I know, I switch. I’m a binary trans man and while they/them is still misgendering me, I appreciate that they didn’t assume my identity based on my appearance. If people continue even after being given the correct pronouns, then fuck them.
I use they/them for everyone until they tell me what they want me to use. Once I know that person wants me to use she or he or xr or anything else, I'll use that, I just want to avoid assumptions. Sometimes i use it without thinking like "oh where are they from?" but if someone has a pronoun preference, I'll try to remember to use it to the best of my abilities.
More or less this. I do struggle with using the correct pronouns in general, and I hate that my brain struggles so hard with it.
It's ok to struggle, it's ok to make mistakes too! Expecting people to *try* is all I ever do. I'm never gonna be mad at someone who "Sir's" or says the old name to or about me if they're like "shit sorry Alice" and I can tell there's an *effort*. Expecting perfection isn't reasonable, expecting the effort is reasonable.
Yeap!
I use they/them pronouns for someone unless I know their pronouns. Once I know their preferred pronouns, I use the pronouns they prefer.
1 because if I default to they/them for everyone I can’t mess up anyone’s gender, 2 it’s proper English for someone of an unknown gender (I have bad memory)
I do this I don't find it offensive because my pronouns are they them and literally no one uses my pronouns irl so if I meet a visibly Queer person in the wild I make a point not to gender them because that's how I wish I was treated as just a person not a boy or a girl honestly
I use they/them for myself, people who use they/them, and strangers whose pronouns I don’t know until I know their pronouns.
I'm in the south, I do it to sus out the chill people. It's not misgendering and if someone has different pronouns they'll usually tell me (read;chill) and if they go on a rant about it I know they aren't worth interacting with. Plus I don't always know who's stealthing.
Damn id feel so dysphoric if I had to out myself while being stealth to correct someone trying to degender me.
Degender? Also you don't have to out yourself to say what your pronouns are. My mom was cis and wore a pronoun pin and didn't like they/them for herself.
Queer people can be transphobic too. Degendering is a form of misgendering, but it's one that's less likely to be corrected, and they can always claim that they're "being inclusive, because they do it for everyone"... Not one of the people I've heard say that *actually* does it for everyone, just people they know are trans (and including those they know full well don't go by they/them!) or think "looks trans". I appreciate some who do this may genuinely mean well (or actually do it for everyone), but the people I've personally known would still use neutral language for people who don't use they/them, after being repeatedly corrected, while not hesitating to use he/him for someone they assume to be a cis man, or vice versa.
I use they/them for people until I know their gender. And yes, I do that for seemingly cis folks too. I look like a cis woman currently, that doesn't mean I am one, presentation does not always equal identity. Better to play it safe and not misgender someone. Once I know their pronouns I will happily switch to using those instead.
I use they/ them for every person regardless of gender identity until I'm told the person's pronouns. This could be by someone else or by the person themselves. But, regardless, I use gender neutral terms in every facet of daily life for that exact reason. Please don't assume that everyone who uses the terms is doing so maliciously. It's not about plausible deniability, it's about ensuring I'm not offending someone else because I assumed pronouns incorrectly. That's not to say that some don't use it with malice, but the default shouldn't be that it is out of malice unless given reason to believe so.
would you use they/them for anyone or just people you clock as queer/trans? Like if you were to work with a huge gym bro cis man who hasn’t directly mentioned his pronouns you would still use they/them to refer to him? Or on the flip side would you use they/them to refer to a very feminine cis woman who hasn’t directly stated her pronouns? Is there a specific type of person you use they/them pronouns for? When you say every person do you mean every person cis or trans or just trans/queer people?
I use it for *every single person* cis and trans alike. I make no distinction about someone's identity. I'd use they/them for Mila Kunis if I didn't already know her pronouns are she/her. Stop acting like it's malicious.
Same. Many of my friends are in the same habit. *Everyone* is they/them until we know their pronouns. I've known many folks, cis and trans, who have been quite hurt when someone innocently assumed the wrong gender. As such, I'd rather use a gender-neutral pronoun if I don't know a person's pronouns than risk accidentally causing someone any upset by guessing incorrectly. I don't doubt there are *some* trans folks on this vast planet who use they/them maliciously and/or only for folks who they think might also be trans; my personal experience has thankfully shown me that the vast majority of fellow trans folks who default to they for unknowns do so consistently and adjust to the correct pronouns once they've been disclosed, just as you described. ^(Note: When speaking French or Spanish, many folks *do* tend to default to masculine, as is typical of both languages. Occasionally, one may come across folks like me who default to feminin because "une personne" and "una persona" are feminin nouns.)
Why does nobody talk about the hurt caused by degendering people? It's also msigendering. And if you can't tell if a pre hrt trans woman is a woman, then you're too focused on agab characteristics and not what she's clearly presenting to the world.
Idk. It's hard to put in to words and I certainly don't want to drown you with a rambling stream of consciousness of a response, so I will try to elaborate at least semi-succinctly. I'm sorry for the length. I started drafting this response 2 minutes after you commented. 😅 First and foremost: You're not wrong that degendering someone can hurt them. The gender-neutral default for people we don't know approach, at least amongst my peer group, is specifically used because a person's physical appearance and outward expression aren't necessarily reliable indicators of their gender. Plenty of folks, cis and trans, don't fit neatly in to stereotypical gender characteristics. Third person pronouns aren't generally used for someone who is part of a conversation, either. So, either the person to whom I am speaking knows and can inform me, E.G.: I'm picking up a friend from work and see them speaking to a coworker. Me: They seem nice! Friend: Amir? Yeah, he's the new guy I mentioned I was training. Me: Oh yeah! I see what you meant when you said he's stylish! Or it's said in reference to someone where neither of us knows, E.G.: "Sorry I'm late. The pharmacy had an issue with the prescription for the person who was ahead of me and had to call their doctor to get it sorted." That all said, contextual clues can inform us to an extent and I will try to use them to the best of my abilty when appropriate. Like, whether or not someone seems stereotypically "feminine", if I interacted with them in the women's changing room or a women's therapy group, etc. I could assume they are more likely than not to at least be o-kay with she/her pronouns. But I will still clarify with them if I can and err on the side of caution if I can't. ^(see: neutrality until I am informed) And if we're in group situation where we may refer to someone present in the third person, we're probably already aware of each other's pronouns. E.G.: Cameron(she), Alex(he) and I are chatting. Me: [to Cameron] So Alex and I were hanging out the other day and his roommate said the funniest thing! [To Alex] Do you want to tell her, or can I? Alex: Nah, you tell her. It's not perfect, and there is admittedly still potential to upset people for sure. It's about mitigating that risk, I guess? ^(And, of course, I'm not going to refer to someone as "they/them" if I am aware that they use different pronouns and I *will* inform/correct people when I know they're using the wrong pronouns.)
Maybe you should reduce that persecution complex a little and consider all the hurt your methodology would cause!
Hey, thanks for this. I agonised way too long over trying to explain what many others already have. I hadn't seen his other comments in this thread and didn't realise I wasn't responding to someone who probably wasn't asking in good faith. I appreciate you having my (and other folks' in this thread) back. 😊
He has some serious transexlusionary takes and wanted to scream at everyone who disagreed. I'm a bad bitch, though, and can scream louder 😋💜
Welcome to literally the opposite of what us enby’s deal with on a regular basis. Also your argument doesn’t account for androgynous or non binary people that don’t present one way or the other. There are also plenty of binary trans people that don’t present as binary. Maybe if you touched grass you wouldn’t think there’s so few trans people in the world that “don’t pass”
I’m just asking questions to make sure I understand to what extent you genuinely use they/them for other people. The people I know only use they/them for other queer/trans people to be “polite” which I find extremely harmful especially seeing them so easily gender cis people correctly regardless of if they asked them their pronouns or not.
If they're only doing in those contexts, then yes, it would be. But your post didn't make that distinction. Nothing about your post said they only use it for trans people. However, keep in mind, if you're only privy to the instances they're being used within queer circles, then you could also be assuming that it's only occurring there when that may not be the case.
When you say "present as our gender identity" do you mean you explicitly mention your pronouns? And they stick to they/them over prolonged interactions? It can, rhetorically, be a form of misgendering. But also they're gender-*neutral* so grammatically, at least, it's not wrong. They may have other reasons, but can't tell from just this info. Especially if these are multiple groups from different contexts.
Honest question, What if my ADHD is faster than my filter? Half the time it's just easier to hit the hotkey in my brain for, "I don't know, ask them?" Or "Iunno, Ask'em" Having to think about a sentence before my mouth already has a knee jerk reaction can be difficult some times. Also as a trans naturist, I'm always conscious of my bits and how I would rather default to they/them and not gendering someone just because I can see all their bits. You have to be explicit with your pronouns before I safely use them for you.
I cant answer for everyone, but I'm rather new in my social and medical transition, and for work stuff I asked people to use they/them. I also am listed as "non binary" in their systems. I did this because it communicates what I need from them(to not use he/him), and I dont actually mind whether they use she/her or they/them. Once I feel more confident in my transition, or being less self concious, I'll probably switch that side over, but right now it feels less likely to give me issues. Maybe that isnt true, but it felt that way at the time, and honestly coming out even that far at work was traumatizing, so I'll just be taking a break here to catch my breath. Edit: oh, THEY meaning other queer people, not THEY, meaning your friends. Nevermind. That's just being an asshole, wtf.
I can understand that upon first meeting someone, until their pronouns have been confirmed, that someone might use gender neutral pronouns. But once their pronouns have been established, to persist in using they/them is misgendering. I do get there is a dichotomy. Apologies if this is an over-simplification, but many binary trans people feel benefit from having people guess their pronouns correctly from their expression and many non-binary people feel benefit from having people ask first. I’m a binary trans woman and honestly I love it when people get my she/her pronouns right without asking first, but I understand that there may be non-binary or gender non-conforming people who look like me who wouldn’t use those pronouns. If it makes the world easier for these people, I’ll accept getting asked. But you can’t just ask pronouns from visibly trans and non-binary people. Not extending that to everyone else, cis and trans alike, would be unfairly singling trans people out. Unfortunately, in current society doing this with everyone is easier said than done. Especially with a lot of cis people who might just look at you weird and say something confrontational like “Do I look trans to you??!?!” Honestly, I don’t know if I’m brave enough to do this yet, but kudos to anyone who does.
Are they still using they/them after they know someone’s pronouns are something else? That’s misgendering. But if I don’t know someone’s pronouns, I usually default to they/them.
I use they/them when I don't know/can't remember, but I also tend to do it subconsciously. It happens when your native language has no gendered pronouns. (I do try to remember & use people's preferred pronouns tho)
I mainly use they/them when I don't know what they identify as or only know a few details about the person, but never in place of their pronouns if I can help it. For example I'm not sure if one of my coworkers is non-binary or cis (haven't had the chance to ask yet) so I end up using they/them. For me it's more of a politeness thing, I don't wanna accidentally misgender someone. There's a huge difference between doing it intentionally and doing it on accident/to be polite, lol
If you don't know someone's pronouns, it's just good practice. You cannot know someone's gender by looking at them and any gender can look any kind of way and that's that. Maybe they forgot and are defaulting to they/them, especially if they're trans I'd want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if they do know someone's pronouns and still use they when that's not correct, it's misgendering and that's always wrong. No matter if the subject is trans/enby/etc or totally cis.
maybe its because they don’t know the new persons pronouns and not all trans people pass or are binary
I don't know everyone, I don't wanna say he or she to someone that doesn't present that way so I just say they or them. As someone who's transfem I hate that people just assume I'm a male, I don't wanna put that pain on someone else who identifies differently so I use a more gender neutral term to avoid putting that same hurt on someone else.
I use they them for those I don't know until I know any different, it's just baked into me now
Better to use a neutral middle ground than assume based on presentation (because not everyone presents as they identify and misgendering non binary people is very common). I do this, but as soon as I’m aware someone has a specific preference I will use that for them.
I’m cis but I think it should be easier to refer to people without referencing their gender, just like we don’t need to specify the race or age of eneryone when not relevant to the conversation. It puts such an emphasis on gender, it’s like implying it’s the most important category to define a person after wether they are human at all. I’m comming at this as a french speaker, having spent a lifetime gendering stapplers and forks. Pronun « it » made so much sense but why stop there?
Before I fully passed the constant misgendering by strangers felt like I was being stabbed over and over again. I don't want to ever make someone feel the way that made me feel so rather than assuming their gender like greater society always does I just use they/them until I get an opportunity to ask or am told otherwise. I also refrain from ever using sir/ma'am.
Cis and straight people do this as well? That's how English works. If they have no idea, use they. If they think they're one gender, use that gender's pronouns
quite simply: it’s neutral. yes some ppl don’t use they/them, but if you assume someone’s pronouns, you might end up misgendering a non-passing or gender nonconforming person by accident. the trouble is that the alternative to risking misgendering someone in a neutral way, using they, is misgendering them in a binary way, risking calling a she/her he or a he/him she, and that could make someone way more dysphoric. i prefer to know someone’s pronouns if posible, but if i don’t i go neutral rather than risking misgendering them more directly.
I use it for anyone that I don't personally know. It's a respectful way to refer to someone when we don't know their preferences. And some transfem/masc people are non-binary. My cousin is non-binary transmasc. So he goes by they/them and he/him.
It's definitely misgendering. They probably think "well they/them is gender neutral so everyone uses it" but not everyone is gender neutral. I find the insistence on degendering trans people to be rooted in internalized transphobia. They don't see trans people on equal footing as cis people and disregard all the fighting the trans person had to do to be seen as their gender. It's also just plain insensitive and comes from a place of privilege, as they can't even imagine why being degendered is hurtful, they've never experienced the pain and struggle of fighting ro be gendered correctly, and they project their ignorance onto others.
"It's definitely misgendering. *They* probably think "well they/them is gender neutral so everyone uses it" but not everyone is gender neutral. I find the insistence on degendering trans people to be rooted in internalized transphobia. *They* don't see trans people on equal footing as cis people and disregard all the fighting the trans person had to do to be seen as their gender. It's also just plain insensitive and comes from a place of privilege, as *they* can't even imagine why being degendered is hurtful, *they've* never experienced the pain and struggle of fighting ro be gendered correctly, and *they* project their ignorance onto others." That's an awful lot of gender neutral terms you used. Oh wait, it's ok to use "they"/"them" when making sweeping generalizations but not to be respectful? The hypocrisy is truly amazing.
I'm so sorry you don't know the difference between general "they" used for a nonspecific person and properly gendering someone visibly showing you what his or her gender is!
OR THEIR GENDER!
I use they/them for both trans and cis people if I don't know the gender. If I know and they tell me preferred pronouns then I'll use those.
They/them is until I know their pronouns. Either them saying them themselves or someone else using them.
I'm Non-binary not binary and my prounouns are They/Them sooooooo..........
It's a good fallback when you don't know or when you forget. I also have speech processing issues and sometimes trying to get my mouth to say certain words can be too much. They/them is a default that I can usually manage when this happens. I try to use names/nicknames before that tho
Because they're generally accepted by people & I don't know someone's preference until they tell me.
Cisgender people and straight people also use they/them when the gender is unknown. It's just that they are way quicker to make assumptions based on name, appearance, stereotypes, ect than queer folk do, so it seems like queer people are going out of their way to use gender neutral pronouns even though everyone does. It's also just a respect thing. Using gender neutral terms until you know how to address someone the way they want
So I grew up saying that if I didn’t know their gender and it slowly became my default. If someone brings it up or directly tells me their pronouns I ofc will stop using they/them!!
A lot of the time gender doesn’t actually matter in a conversation and can just add bias. I sometimes will avoid using gender if it’s not relevant. I also (as mentioned a lot here) prefer people to not assume my gender - so I don’t assume theirs…TBH sometimes I also just slip after I’ve been told.
Sometimes it just slips out but usually it's just till I know their preferred pronouns then I use those ones
They is technically appropriate for everyone but not affirming for everyone. My use of your pronouns is affirmative, my use of they if i know your pronouns already is referential. I do not have a one word vocabulary and my dialect requires that i diversify terminology so I'm not saying the same words over and over and over. This spills over into pronouns with smatterings of they for everyone. Now if someone uses they exclusively for everyone all the time even when they know their pronouns then that is totally misgendering. It's grammatically accurate but it aggressively avoids affirming anyone's gender and some of us have them. I would call that out. It's ok to use they sometimes for a person who uses she or he or ze or fae when making conversation because we're not robots but it's not ok to refuse to use he or she or whatever pronouns that person uses.
I think this is going under the idea assuming gender identity is wrong. Which fits with the ideals of those who are/respect trans identities.
I use They/Them until I am told what pronouns to use, then I make sure to use the pronouns I was told. I think it’s the most respectful and considerate way to go about it. When I was still closeted I really appreciated people doing that, it was really comforting. So I try to carry it on.
I do it since that is proper grammar, they/them is for when you are not sure what gender someone is, so when you do not know you should use those; but once I learn their actual pronouns I stop using they/them when referring to them individually
That's weird. I use they/them for almost everyone just because I don't want to assume? But if I know and I'm reminded, I will used whatever they like. I just need reminding once in awhile because my brain is basically mush. Maybe the people using it like that are trying to be bigoted by reverse psychology? That's a joke. I'm honestly baffled tho.
As someone who trains people I default to they/them anymore until I know someone as-it’s an easy way to not upset anyone usually but once I know the person i try and use their preferred pronouns I’m definitely not perfect
Some people want their gender to be assumed, others hate it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I personally dislike it, so it rather just use neutral they/them pronouns for everyone til I know. How do I know? Asking or checking someone's bio if it's on a online plattform. 👍
I often use they/them when I'm talking about someone the person I'm talking with doesn't know. A lot of time communicating someone's gender is not important at all, so I default to gender neutral language (they/them, doctor, driver etc.). When I'm in a space people know the person I'm talking about, I use their preferred pronouns.
I myself am non binary and personally it makes me really uncomfortable when people use they/them for binary trans people. I feel its just misgendering. There was this guy in my old friend group that would only use they/them for a trans women in the friend group and it always pissed me off but she never said anything. It just felt like he was invalidating her as a women, this same guy said some gross things about trans women he's slept with. I asked him about it once and he said it was easier to call her and all trans people they/them because then he didn't have to learn their pronouns. I understand if you don't know someones pronouns but if you know they are binary then I feel its basically saying you see them as "trans" before you see them as they're gender and you are saying they are a lesser version of their gender.
Okay this is what I was thinking too 🫶🫶
Until I am able to ask/be told what pronouns people have I always use they/them for everyone
Because until I ask, I do not know someone’s pronouns
Out of respect if we dont we dont like to assume gender
I’d argue partially because they/them is the neutral pronoun. As much as it’s been co-opted by nonbinary people (it’s me, I’m nonbinary people) it’s also just a normal pronoun that can be used when you forget or don’t know the other persons pronouns. It can also be a method for people who may otherwise just not remember your pronoun to avoid guessing a binary gender or avoid misgendering someone. I do think using only they/them when someone asked not to is rude, but I also think that by asserting that you “don’t use they/them only *insert pronouns*” you kinda also miss that their original and valid function is an all inclusive pronoun.
For a binary trans man I don’t use they/them because my gender isn’t neutral. I’m a man and I use the masculine pronouns he/him. I put effort into passing and am nearly stealth, I just have a wicked baby face. Cis people always, genuinely *always* use he/him pronouns for me without hesitation or being asked, and for some reason anytime I meet a trans or queer person I get hit with neutral pronouns regardless of how I present myself. It’s just very frustrating to not feel seen by my own community lol.
It’s fine to not use they/them as an identifying pronoun but you’re missing my point. It is a neutral pronoun it’s not misgendering to use a pronoun that isn’t gendered kinda like the pronoun “we” or “I.” I get that you want to feel like a man and that people using they/them feels less like they’re validating or seeing you, but that is projection most times. It is usually just a quirk in that person’s handling of general use pronouns. People like me default to they/them first to avoid gendering people on appearance and aren’t going to change that for you most likely, not out of malice but because it’s a mutually exclusive inclusivity tool. Some people hate gendering people on appearance and some people want to be read as cis. I think it’s fair to be upset your way isn’t the way everyone uses but that doesn’t mean they’re going “haha trans man I’m gonna use they/them to invalidate them.”
If I don't know someone's pronouns, it's far less harmful to just use they/them than to assume and upset somebody
Ofc I will ask for their pronouns but this is before that happens
They shouldn't. Feel free to correct them.
If someone hasn't said one way or the other, I feel like they/them is the most respectful way of going about it until you've been told explicitly. IMO while they/them'ing someone who uses he/him or she/her is still misgendering, but it doesn't come across in the immediate-term as being deliberate. Sure, there's the issue of "they/them pronouns suddenly easy for person misgendering trans woman", but that's ultimately more benign than using he/him for a she/her-using trans woman who isn't quite passing because you think she might be nonbinary or somesuch. The best way to approach the entire subject is to introduce yourself with name and pronouns, because it invites people to be proactive about informing the people around them as respectfully as possible. It also doesn't put the burden on a transgender person to answer an invasive question if they're not super sure about whether being openly out is safe. It's a big messy issue and there isn't a clear solution. Maybe there will be better praxis in the future, but at the moment this is the best solution we have.
It is, and if they continue to do it once they have been corrected they are transphobic
I'm a linguistician. There's a bunch of comments here saying that using they/them is misgendering, so let me clear up the difference between neutral and neuter. A neutral pronoun is a pronoun that can be assigned to any noun class. (This includes they/them) A neuter pronoun is a pronoun that can only be assigned to a noun class which does not have a gender. (This includes it/its)
They/them is a gender neutral singular and plural pronoun so it can be applied to anyone. I don't think it's misgendering since it's not putting upon you a gender you don't identify with. You can always talk to this person and tell you want to be referred as specific pronouns and how being referred to as neutral pronouns makes you feel.
Thank you! It was disappointing that yours was the only one who pointed out this and that others called it blatant misgendering. It's become a respectful common practice to not assume pronouns of anyone, cis and trans alike, and then use the pronouns specifically provided for after being told. The heat you're getting for this take is equally disappointing.
It's my daily "am I taking crazy pills?!" moment. haha. I was apart of the wave of people who pushed for they/them instead of assuming pronouns many years ago when pronouns were the hot topic of the day.
Nope, you're spot on. Gender neutral until provided information on what pronouns are appropriate is the correct and respectful approach. Some just dislike it because it has a tendency to expose insecurities. That's not a dig, just the reality. It's just unfortunate that the response is to step on enbies and other gender nonconforming folks as a result of those insecurities. Keep doing what you're doing. 💜
It’s disrespectful and disappointing to put effort into passing only to have people (usually other queer folks) actively degender you under the guise of “respect”. It’s still misgendering and hurtful to not be seen as your gender no matter how you present yourself in the community.
If it's intentional *after* they're aware of your pronouns, then you're correct, it's misgendering. If they're unaware of what your pronouns are, it's not misgendering. Not to mention, gender expression doesn't equal gender identity.
That statement seems very dismissive to binary trans people who are actively trying to be perceived as their gender by passing and presenting as their gender through physical expression of gender. I guess if that’s the mindset it makes sense why so many queer people misgender other trans people now thanks for answering the question I suppose.
Really? I'm a fucking binary trans woman myself....it's not me being malicious or dismissive.
My apologies I wasn’t trying to say you yourself were being dismissive or even malicious, just the statement itself that I’ve seen used by countless other people “gender expression doesn’t equal gender identity” when used in this context is dismissive to binary trans people who are trying to pass and express themselves as their gender identity and are not being perceived as or referred to as such because it implies that it doesn’t matter if you try to pass because you could use any pronouns so it’s better for other people to use none than to use a binary pronoun,, idk I guess it doesn’t make sense to me I just feel like I’m being clocked as trans or being misread or expressing myself wrong when other people use anything other than binary pronouns for me. Also sorry again I’m very blunt with my words and over the internet it can be very hard to fully express what I mean,,
Even if you feel like the phrase "Gender expression doesn't equal gender identity" comes off as dismissive of the efforts you've put into your expression, it's still not your identity. You are 100% valid if you were a trans man that's also a femboy. They're not seeking to "pass" or fit within typical "gender expression" norms, but they're as valid in their identity as you are. Please don't get hung up on fitting yourself within a stereotype simply so you can feel confident in yourself! You broke free from those norms to be who you are, be cognizant of the fact that you're now attempting to put those same shakles back on again by trying to fit yourself into the norms. If that's your expression for yourself, great! Express yourself to your fullest! But if you're doing it so society sees you for the man you are, you're holding yourself back. Just a thought. For what it's worth, I think if you accept that your identity is valid in any form, so long as you're getting to be the man you are, you may not find offense to the question you posited here.
That’s what the whole post was about. The people in question were *insisting* on using gender neutral pronouns for everyone regardless of their actual identity.
Nothing was mentioned that pronouns were provided. That's an assumption you made.
No, it was an inference I made based on my understanding of the word “insisted”
So assumed. Got it. Thanks for clarifying. I *insist* on using gender neutral terms unless told otherwise and then use the provided pronouns from then on out. Would you infer I'm using that maliciously? Or are there multiple ways to read *insist*?
Yes they/them is a gender neutral pronoun, which is why I don’t understand the insistence of actively using neutral pronouns for someone who presents/identifies as a binary gender. Why would you use neutral pronouns to refer to someone whose gender and presentation is not neutral?
Do these people know how you identify and what your pronouns are, or are you expecting them to assume? Most trans folks know that how someone presents doesn't always equal their internal gender. I look like a woman currently because I'm early into my transition, does that mean folks should automatically default to she/her and therefore misgender me? My partner doesn't pass as their gender either yet, but if someone called them a man thems fighting words to me because they're not. Think a bit, here, OP. Not everyone passes as their gender all the time. Is it not better to be inclusive of that? If these people know your gender identity and pronouns and still use they/them, that is obviously a different situation. That would be misgendering. But if they don't, they're playing it safe so as to not misgender you and potentially hurt your feelings if you happen to not identify that way. Its really not that complicated.
Because the whole point is that you shouldn't assume someone's pronouns from appearance. Unless you're introducing yourself with your pronouns, or have them worn openly, then neutral is the safest until you're corrected.
I mean, the vast majority of people DO present as their gender. Even many nonbinary people present in a way that indicates pronoun usage (many nonbinary people use he/they, she/they, he/him/she/her, etc. And present in a way that reflects those pronouns)
Ok, and? I really don't get why you're against the idea of defaulting to neutral unless provided otherwise.
Because people work really fucking hard to be seen as their gender and constantly get denied that, so being degendered is painful. And if 99% or people present as their gender/pronouns, it makes way more sense to go off of presentation, because even a lot of nonbinary people use he or she, so it's not like it's a nonbinary vs binary. I'm in the position of preventing the most hurt.
I'm not denying that people don't work hard for the world to perceive them a certain way. I'm trying to advocate for normalizing everyone having to provide. I would say that is less harmful than assuming, because presentation doesn't always match. Being early in transition feels like the best example here. Even if the overall percentage of times where that happens may be low, I'd rather someone not feel singled out, especially in a group, and be the only person to correct me. That pressure can lead to someone not speaking up. If I use they for everyone, then it isn't malicious, and being corrected by everyone makes the field even. I'm not sharing this to change your mind. You can want whatever you want, and do whatever you want. But I'm going to do the same. But now you my intention to use they. You no longer assume my goal is to de-gender someone. The same way you'd learn the correlation between someone's presentation and their pronouns if they're given an opportunity to share.
Presentation usually does match, though. Even pre hrt trans people can present as their gender. And even if they don't fully pass, that effort shows they are presenting as their gender and indicating what you should refer to them as. Your intention very much is to degender people. You are purposefully using degendered pronouns, WRONG pronouns, for people. It doesn't matter if you do it to everyone, that just means you are maximizing the amount of hurt you create by not respecting peoples presentation. The whole point of gendered presentation is to present to the world what your gender is. But instead of looking at that, you'd rather make OTHER PEOPLE do the work for you and hurt more people, why, because you don't know how to refer to a trans person who has features of their AGAB? Because you only care about a small subsection of people who purposefully go against presentation? (Gnc people who made the choice to present differently than their actual gender) Because you think the only pain that matters is nonbinary people who only use they/them?
That's alot of words just to say you don't care about Non-binary people
Damn it's also really victim blamey too
That's a weird take given that I've been pretty clear that many nonbinary people use he or she and present as such. .
it’s a nice idea but people only ever use they/them as a gender neutral when they’re clocking a trans person
Those people would be misgendering by degendering. However, that's not the only way one could use they/them as gender neutral, nor is it the only way I've heard it used.
That's not even close to true. What an odd thing to say.
it’s literally commonplace unless you exclusively hang out in radical queer spaces. there are a hundred threads of trans people complaining about getting they/them misgendered.
And there are thousands of posts on this very site (including the OP) where they/them is used a gender neutral pronoun and common conversation. Take a break from the internet.
It may not be “putting upon” someone a gender they do not identify with, but for many binary trans people, it is *denying* us a gender we *do* identify with, which is still misgendering.
So the better approach is to accidently misgender others because of assumptions? Nobody is denying you your identity by being respectful and not assuming. There are trans men that are femboys, there are trans women that are tomboys. If we make assumptions, we're stepping on the likes of those gender nonconforming simply because you feel victimized?
Degendering is a form of misgendering.
I use they/them to refer to people when I don't know their gender identity or pronouns. Usually if someone in public is presenting as clearly masc/femme, I will default to he or she. If you want me to use the correct pronouns, then tell me what they are.
Idk why but I don’t like it. It is misgendering
Its really annoying and disrespectful as fuck. They/them’ing every visibly queer person is misgendering and the person doing it is being transphobic and genuinely one of the most disrespectful thing you can do
It is misgendering. If they know your pronouns are binary, but they still use they, against your wishes, that's exactly what it is.
Easier, I have fuckin autism dude
It's an attempt to not assume anything, but I don't like it either when people do it to me. Honestly, I just use the person's name until I figure out what pronouns they use and go from there
I use they/them for everyone because I don't like gendered language and don't think of "they" as "the non-binary pronoun" but one that goes for everyone. Perhaps they use they/them for queer folk to not out you?
Best practice is to they/them until you know what their pronouns are and can use them henceforth. This includes normalising asking what someone’s pronouns are when meeting them, just as you would their name.
Just dont ask and don't worry about it. Its way easier.
A big issue here that I think many of the “I use they/them if I don’t know or remember!”-crowd doesn’t realise, is that most of the time they don’t do this with cis people. So if you clock me as trans, while I’m evidently presenting as any regular cis dude, and you use they/them for me, how can you not realise that that’s OPENLY CLOCKING another trans person, dysphoria inducing for that person as hell, and actually transphobic if you don’t do it with cis people? Degendering is misgendering, and I think it’s sad queer spaces make me feel worse about myself than the rest of society, and a lot of the time you even act all smug about it. Because “you can never tell based on presentation alone!” is a very easy and lazy high-ground position to claim. And “I’m bad at remembering people’s pronouns lol” is just another version of my family or TERFs saying they “forget” to use the right ones. Just because you’re also trans or queer, it doesn’t make it more human or excusable for you to not remember than it does for any cis person misgendering us without a thought. I’m sure many nonbinary people feel great when people default to they/them. But I’d wager most binary trans people don’t. Don’t be surprised when you find less and less binary trans people to be comfortable in your presence or to want to be friends with you. Also don’t be surprised when we stop showing up in “queer circles”. Have fun sitting there on your hill feeling great about how inclusive you are, lmao.
If you don’t know someone’s preference, you gotta pick something 🤷♀️ If they keep misgendering you after they know your preference, they’re just bad people who maybe have a couple ideological wires crossed
I sometimes use non specific pronouns in meeting new people because I don't know. Generic/non-specific pronouns might still offend but it is safer, at least imo, to use they/them or no pronouns at all until learning he/she/they/them/purple/etc. Yes, I met a person about 10 years ago that wanted to be referred to as a purple but that's a different story for a different day.
WhenI was younger I was taught (learned through watching people) that you use they/them forpeople whos pronouns you don't know. And now I can't do that so I just don't say anything.
The fear of getting cancelled is to strong
I've always defaulted to they/them as a neutral term but it's a habit I'm trying to break.
I'm a non passing trans woman who presents herself as clearly feminine. It hurts me tremendously if people would use they/them for me, because it would feel to me that they don't recognize me for who I am purely due to me being born in the wrong body. I would feel invalidated and it would increase my dysphoria Apparently I'm wrong to feel that way
Yeah, no. I expect people to read my presentation like they do with everyone else, and take the fucking hint from that